She immediately pointed a finger at “billionaires spending millions to rig this election.” That claim resulted in a brutal social media backlash from many who were happy to depict the congresswoman as a graceless loser.
Okay, I’m not arguing that either of you are wrong but if we’re going to start claiming that money influencing elections makes them rigged then doesn’t that apply to elections where Dems out spend the opponents too?
Obviously money plays a huge role, IIRC the bigger spenders have won the presidency 8/10 times recently and Biden apparently has a huge lead in the bank right now which gives hope despite the polls…
I agree with your point about spending, but you have to remember that Bernie technically benefited from the shenanigans the DNC pulled. The people who should be upset are all the more centrist potential candidates who got squeezed out, Bernie’s campaign was able to absorb and represent the entire “never-Clinton” constituency.
I actually find this a very plausible conspiracy theory, based on how events occurred. Clinton was in a heated primary with Obama, and faltering. She graciously stepped back without fuss, was made Secretary of State, and was laser-focused by the r’s for 8 years trying to pin a scandal on her. When Obama left, Biden declined to run. All of this suggests a deal made for after the Obama presidency, and the r’s hearing about it (notice she was the single target after him, they never attacked Biden).
I would posit that some deal maker traded her backing away cleanly for promised delegates and a clear shot after Obama. I don’t know the background structure of the d’s party, so I have no idea who it would be.
There’s also the fact the Bernie is technically an independent. He mostly caucuses with the Dems, but he’s not in the party. It does make some sense that they’d want one of their own to represent the party on the ticket.
Dude, she literally stayed in after the writing was on the wall, arguing that Obama might die before the general.
Her supporters started an organization called PUMA, which was short for Party Unity My Ass, though when they registered it as a corporation, they changed it to People United Means Action and have since pretended that it meant that from the start.
There’s been few less gracious primary losers in either major party.
It’s the use of “rigged” that throws me. I agree money in politics is bad, and adds improper influence and incentive into the whole thing. That is not the same context that we have widely seen “rigged” used in the last 8 years. The term brings to mind GOP lies about election integrity, and bogus claims of fraud.
If this was just someone I was talking to I would brush the statement off as bad word choice, and move on if there was nothing else. With it being a statement after an election loss from someone with political experience I struggle to let it slide. Word choice and presenting ideas/policy is a major part of the job she is running for, and I think such poor word choice in a statement she had every opportunity to proofread and consider is worthy of some criticism. Doesn’t make her an election denier, or anything of the sort, but it does warrant a little slap on the wrist from the public.
Overall she’s right, but there were many better ways to say it.
In a normal primary Schiff would be running against Porter straight up, but California has a top two system. It was always obvious that a Democrat was going to win the seat so he had to beat her now to seal the win. I don’t fault him for his tactics, he didn’t do anything to harm Porter’s future electability but her comments made her sound entitled, which might actually hurt them. The amount of money spent is a real problem but so is the low voter turnout, around 30%. Republicans did a better job getting to the polls and Porter didn’t run a strong race.
It was always obvious that a Democrat was going to win the seat
Just like how it was obvious Trump wasn’t gonna win in 2016?
Making the voice of an opponent louder just because you don’t want to go up against one of your own team is very disappointing. Sure, maybe it worked out this time, but it also means the republicans will have a larger base next election. How often can this game be played?
Not really the same thing. Biden beat Trump in California by 30 points in 2020. Hilary did the same in 2016. Not a chance Garvey wins in a national election. He only did as well as he did in the primary because we had something like 25% voter turnout.
“Rigged” is a loaded word these days and it was careless of her to use it. She could’ve just said billionaires are gaming the system or some other term that gets her point across. She won twice in Orange County of all places even with district moved, but she ran a poor race. I saw no Porter signs and no one stopped by campaign for her, unlike her house campaigns.
Bullying goes unpunished everywhere. We had to take my daughter out of school here in Indiana and put her in online school because she was being bullied by virtually every kid in the school. The bullied kids were bullying here. The school did nothing despite our pleas. Once, she was doxxed by a couple of sisters on Discord who also prank called her a whole bunch of times. The school made both the sisters and my daughter apologize to each other. Online school requires one parent as a “learning coach” (i.e. I have to make sure she stays on track all day), which meant going down to one income. I’m not sure what other choice we had since she started having self-harm thoughts.
And maybe a month later, one of her few friends, who basically became her replacement at that school when my daughter left, got pulled out by her parents and put in online school.
I mentioned this in another thread- my daughter has another friend in that school who is trans. Not only does the school deadname him despite his parents’ pleas and force him to use the girls’ bathroom and locker room, but the other day, a girl was being a bigot against him and he slapped her. He got out-of-school suspension. Nothing happened to the girl.
I’m guessing a lot of abuse and neglect. And/or evangelical Christianity in the case of the people bullying her trans friend. But clearly they have had it pushed into their brains that anyone who isn’t “normal” needs to have “normal” beaten into them.
My daughter’s friend for obvious reasons. My daughter because she likes dressing like a punk rocker and they decided she’s a furry because she wears leather collars. Then we made the terrible mistake of allowing her go as the anime catgirl character she wanted to dress up as for Halloween. My wife, who is great at this stuff, made a costume that was exactly like the picture my daughter showed us. She went to school that morning and an eighth grader asked to take a picture with her… which she then put on Tiktok with some nasty messages and shared with the entire school. We didn’t even wait for the administration to make her apologize again. That was the end of her time in school.
And honestly, if I could, I’d pull her friend out of that school, pick him up every day and put him in online school with my daughter. My wife joked that I’d start a school here for queer kids (my daughter is also queer, but that wasn’t the bullying that bothered her, it was the furry stuff). Honestly, if I could, I would.
Mean as shit. I’ve actually met the parents of two different guys that bullied me. They were poor white trash that smoked and drank and gave you that sense of fight or flight that usually only kicks in when a goddamn bear attacks you.
I suppose it’s easy to ignore any signs of it happening from that point of view. Their kids have friends (the clique) who can represent the facade of everything being just fine, which every parent desperately wants to believe in in advance. If they catch a glimpse of it, they’ll write it off as the bullied kid being the problem.
And that’s best case. In worse cases, the parents will encourage the bullying directly or indirectly and see nothing wrong with it.
It’s the same way that things like racism or sexism are taught from one generation to the next. It’s not that anyone wants their child to be so, they just don’t see it happening themselves.
These kinds of behaviours don’t happen because they want to hurt someone. It happens because they want to protect themselves (even if it’s at the cost of others) so they can fit in with the popular people. The desire to fit in comes from fear (or acknowledgement) of not being able to solve stuff on their own. So instead of teaching their children algebra or whatever is necessary to perform, they teach them to fit in at all cost, because that’s what worked for themselves.
So in short, it’s ignorance paired with herd mentality.
Dude it’s been this way since the 90’s, at least. It has been turbocharged due to technology is the main difference. Ask me how I know.
American culture is abusive in general, it’s not shocking that abusive behavior has become the norm.
In societies where the law has broken down and failed to make an orderly society, people turn to mob mentality to “punish” those they see as in need of punishment.
In American society law has been broken since at least the Reagan era, and we’re seeing the societal effects in real time. The people doing the bullying are just as under the thumb of America as anyone else, but like classic mob mentality, they’ve simply chosen people they don’t like to abuse as opposed to real criminality. Why? Because most humans are stupid, base motherfuckers, and they always assume that they are a “good” person, and by extension their friends are “good” people so why should they do any introspection, it means that the other people are “bad” people. It’s the same tribal fucking bullshit it has always been and this is exactly why we started trying to build orderly societies with law enforcement and justice you could count on. Now that that’s squarely out of the fucking window, you have a society that is all too ready to dole out mob violence which rarely equates to “justice.” The worst is that the mob is often in the wrong and also in the majority as evidenced by the above anecdote.
When justice fails, when justice is delayed, when justice is deferred, when the cops have special rights to brutalize you but are not held to the same standards and are allowed to break the law, this is what you fucking end up with. A society ready to fucking eat itself alive. It’s not fucking rocket science (although it is social science).
Dude it’s been this way since the 90’s, at least. It has been turbocharged due to technology is the main difference.
I am SO FUCKING GLAD I graduated high school before the internet became a thing. My heart goes out to these poor kids who can be bullied on blast 24/7 now.
If you face harassment on the job you can sue for millions of dollars. If schoolkids could do the same up to age 25 for school bullying I bet we'd see less of it
HR isn't your friend but when I had a lead harass me on the job last year they delt with it because of they didn't I could sue. An email with the subject line "hostile work environment complaint" told them my problem was now legally their problem. Give kids those smart rights and make school administration have the legal duty to protect students and failure to do so causes personal liability
That’s awful. And one of my biggest fears. Are there any anti bullying advocacy groups that would be willing to help fund your case? A good court victory does wonders for the cause.
I feel like the monkey’s paw outcome here is public schools closing because no one (read: conservatives) wants to pay for it, or change the schools to be better about the underlying problems.
Det. Jonathan Riley: … on the night of the murder, Kaitlin Armstrong’s phone was not connected to a cell network.
Jonathan Vigliotti: Not connected?
Det. Jonathan Riley: Correct. So, whether she powered it off, whether she put in an airplane mode, uh, there’s some something happened that her phone was not communicating with any cellphone towers.
Jonathan Vigliotti: Do you think this was on purpose?
Det. Jonathan Riley: Absolutely … in this day and age, if your phone is off and not connected to a network, you’re either the victim of a crime or you’re probably committing one.
Yea there are many reasons you could be disconnected, wanting to be left alone, on a plane so on airplane mode…, battery died, etc. They just look for any reason to add more slaves in the prison system.
I’ve seen them add people as suspects to crimes because it was determined they left the house with their phone at home, obviously no one has ever forgotten their phone so they must have left it their on purpose
Well I mostly agree, one issue is putting your phone in airplane mode does absolutely not mean it’s disconnected (neither is turning it off, or the battery running out in many cases e.g. iPhones still communicate with the „Find My“ network when your battery runs out or you turn it off). Also, most phones still have reception even when you don’t have a connection because for stuff like emergency services your connection is routed over ALL cell towers, not just the ones of your provider. So if you see no bars it doesn’t mean you’re not communicating with a cell tower.
So to be off the grid the way they’re talking about is removing sim + turning it off, or removing the battery. Both of which are rather drastic for „wanting to be left alone“.
I’m not trying to defend their assumptions, I’m just saying their „that person is offline“ is more meaningful than just „he’s not receiving my iMessage“ or whatever.
Actually you can buy a privacy bag from Amazon which is used by law enforcement and blocks all EMP and Radio signals, I got one for the holidays and it works really well.
Nobody would ever be convicted of murder solely because their phone was off. But anything can be used by investigators as a prompt to suspect someone and conduct further investigations. And that's fine by me. If you read the article there's a ton of other clues that were adding to make Armstrong interesting, it wasn't just the phone.
Yeah, it can’t be the whole puzzle, but if a chronically-online person disconnects the one night they are also linked to a murder in a bunch of other ways, it can be a piece of that puzzle.
They didn’t. It’s just evidence. If you were the type of person whose phone is never connected or often disconnected, it probably wouldn’t be compelling evidence.
That’s why it’s not evidence and not used in court. This is the rationale a detective uses to identify a suspect and begin looking for evidence. And he’s outlining that to a reporter that a phone disconnected from a network at the time of a known crime is suspicious.
Their website seems to be trying to pitch something called a uConsole that I also don’t really get the point of, but I’m guessing that’s not what you’re talking about about.
That’s exactly what I’m talking about. The uconsole I ordered has an open cellular modem and I’m planning on getting all my messaging working through matrix bridges. Good luck trying to monitor me.
Det. Jonathan Riley: Absolutely … in this day and age, if your phone is off and not connected to a network, you’re either the victim of a crime or you’re probably committing one.
That’s kind of …disturbing?
Theoretical reporter asks: “Detective, is it possible the battery died because of heavy phone use that day or an old phone with a worn out battery that doesn’t hold a long charge?”
Theoretical Det. Jonathan Riley: “Absolutely not; victim of a crime or you’re committing one. Those are the only two possible outcomes.”
I mean if a common sense law like that violates the state constitution, it does seems like the problem is in the constitution or how it’s interpreted, not the law…
So, the first amendment gives you the right to free speech, and yet inciting a riot or other dangerous forms of speech are still not protected.
Arms does not mean guns. It just means weapons and/or armor. Dangerous things can and should be protected. Not all weapons need be for the public, as I’m pretty sure no one would be okay with any civilian having their own nuke stockpile. I don’t see why we can’t dial it back a bit more to try and reduce access to guns when we’ve continually seen how much destruction they can cause.
I've been saying this for a while here: the only way anyone can see gun control laws pass within a normal human lifetime is to have all minorities purchase and bear arms, and then go out and protest peacefully with said arms.
The only way you can have Republicans vote against their own interests is to appeal to their racism/sexism/genderism; this is what the Black Panthers did in California and how Republicans unanimously voted in favor of gun control. All gun control laws stem from racism, and this fact needs to be leveraged.
100% in agreement. Not just minorities… everyone that leans left too. I’d really like to see some funding go towards providing free firearms training courses for the trans community.
This is exactly why Ronald Reagan instituted gun laws in the in California. The Black Panthers started showing up to the state capitol with guns and there were no laws against it.
We can argue whether or not it's still relevant today/how it needs to be changed, but trying to claim that the second amendment doesn't very, very heavily imply firearms is disingenuous at best.
“The Second Amendment protects an individual right to possess a firearm unconnected with service in a militia, and to use that arm for traditionally lawful purposes, such as self-defense within the home.”
McDonald - 2010 (because Heller involved Washington D.C., a 2nd ruling showed that it also applies to states as well).
“The Due Process Clause of the Fourteenth Amendment extends the Second Amendment’s right to keep and bear arms to the states, at least for traditional, lawful purposes such as self-defense.”
Caetano - 2016 - This one is fascinating. I wish more people read it. Woman had an abusive ex, bought a taser to protect herself. MA went after her arguing “tasers didn’t exist back then, 2nd Amendment doesn’t apply.” Supremes “um actually’d” them hard.
“The Second Amendment covers all weapons that may be defined as “bearable arms,” even if they did not exist when the Bill of Rights was drafted and are not commonly used in warfare.”
“The constitutional right to bear arms in public for self-defense is not “a second-class right, subject to an entirely different body of rules than the other Bill of Rights guarantees.” McDonald, 561 U. S., at 780 (plurality opinion). We know of no other constitutional right that an individual may exercise only after demonstrating to government officers some special need. That is not how the First Amendment works when it comes to unpopular speech or the free exercise of religion. It is not how the Sixth Amendment works when it comes to a defendant’s right to confront the witnesses against him. And it is not how the Second Amendment works when it comes to public carry for self-defense.
New York’s proper-cause requirement violates the Fourteenth Amendment in that it prevents law-abiding citizens with ordinary self-defense needs from exercising their right to keep and bear arms. We therefore reverse the judgment of the Court of Appeals and remand the case for further proceedings consistent with this opinion.
It is so ordered.”
Sooo…
When you look at all 4 of these rulings together…
Washington D.C. can’t ban an entire class of weapon, or require they be kept locked or disassembled. Militia membership is not required (Heller).
That same restriction applies to the States as well (McDonald).
The 2nd amendment applies to all bearable weapons, even those that did not exist at the time of writing (Caetano).
States cannot apply additional restrictions on gun ownership or possession (Bruen). Citizens only need to pass a criminal check.
The 2nd amendment applies to all bearable weapons, even those that did not exist at the time of writing (Caetano).
That seems to conflict with Miller though? A short barrel shotgun apparently wasn’t standard military issue so it wasn’t legal for possession?
The Second Amendment protects only the ownership of military-type weapons appropriate for use in an organized militia.
The “double barrel 12-gauge Stevens shotgun having a barrel less than 18 inches in length, bearing identification number 76230,” was never used in any militia organization.
New precedent trumps old precedent. It's why Brown v Board is the law of the land and Plessy v Ferguson isn't. There (to my knowledge) hasn't been a challenge to the NFA that's reached the Supreme Court since that Caetano case in 2016 and the court hasn't explicitly struck down the prior precedent of its legality, so it still stands based on the other points in the ruling. Even the current NFA-related cases against bump stock and pistol brace bans working through courts are based more on whether the ATF can consider them as NFA items rather than whether the NFA itself can be considered constitutional, so it's likely to stick around.
A short barrelled shotgun or short barrelled rifle can be legally owned, you just have to pay a tax stamp on it. $200 was a LOT of money when Miller passed, not so much these days.
That doesn’t even get into “Non-NFA Firearms” that are designed by the manufacturer to ride the line between legal and illegal.
For example… If you take a Mossberg 590 shotgun and chop the stock down to a pistol grip, and don’t pay the tax, that’s a felony.
If you take a Mossberg 590 and shorten the barrel too much without paying the tax stamp, that’s a felony.
The 590 Shockwave is a “Non-NFA firearm” that is perfectly legal without a tax stamp even though it has a pistol grip and a short barrel.
Wild to see liberal interpretation go from "militia means military" to "arms doesn't even mean guns". At least acknowledges it as a right of the individual, which is a step in the right direction I guess. Hell of a take when even the strictest court precedent in US v Miller acknowledges it as the right of the individual to military arms, curious how this take spins the militia line.
Miller is largely set aside for Heller in 2008, which defined the 2nd Amendment as not requiring militia membership and that the core reason for the 2nd is self defense.
"Go to" as if I didn't just cite that its most stringent supreme court interpretation from 100 years ago establishes it as a right of the individual. And I ain't no fucking fascist.
The court recently said nationally legal abortion was unconstitutional. Do you agree? If not, curious how you spin that since SCOTUS decisions make right.
Background checks for gun ownership absolutely is a common sense law. Sadly the state constitution is poorly written in this case, so that needs fixed before a measure like this can be approved.
No, but you can probably apply to the ATF for a destructive device registration if you make its gun operational.
I think you also need to do the same for each shell. I know you have to do this for grenade launchers, I’m assuming it’s the same for tank shells (especially exploding rounds, not sure about non-exploding).
“The Second Amendment covers all weapons that may be defined as “bearable arms,” even if they did not exist when the Bill of Rights was drafted and are not commonly used in warfare.”
RPGs, grenades and the like fall under “destructive devices” and as such aren’t covered under the 2nd Amendment. They’re regulated under the firearms act of 1968.
What I think is totally irrelevant. I’m not a lawyer or a judge. All I can tell you is the way it is, if you don’t LIKE that, there is a path to change it, talk to your legislators about writing a new law.
but I’m asking you. You can’t answer the question? Or choose not to? You think there’s no value in discussing these issues and trying to get people to agree? That’s how you get like-minded people elected, my dude.
Unless you’re saying nothing anyone can say will ever change your opinion on this issue. Which would be an end to any and all conversation
I’m not answering the question because my answer literally does not matter. The facts are the facts, you can choose like them or not, but that doesn’t make them not facts.
The ATF has banned armor piercing rounds specifically for that reason, but they also have a (17 page!) document listing how, when, and why certain armor piercing rounds fall under a “sporting exception”.
“Specifically, the definition of “armor piercing ammunition” in 18 U.S.C. 921(a)(17)(B) provides: (B) The term “armor piercing ammunition” means— (i) a projectile or projectile core which may be used in a handgun and which is constructed entirely (excluding the presence of traces of other substances) from one or a combination of tungsten alloys, steel, iron, brass, bronze, beryllium copper or depleted uranium; or (ii) a full jacketed projectile larger than .22 caliber designed and intended for use in a handgun and whose jacket has a weight of more than 25 percent of the total weight of the projectile.”
It would appear the ban was intended to restrict the sale of what the press hysterically called “Cop Killer Bullets” back then. Phrase was all the rage. No mention of rifle rounds, only handgun rounds, and rifle rounds would later be explicitly allowed by the ATF:
“Between 1986 and 2011, ATF received few exemption requests for armor piercing ammunition. In 1986, ATF exempted 5.56 mm (.223) SS109 and M855 “green tip” ammunition containing a steel core. Similarly, in 1992, ATF exempted .30-06 M2AP cartridges. Since 2011, however, ATF has received approximately 30 exemption requests for armor piercing ammunition. Several developments since 1992 have spurred the influx of exemption requests.
Oh, man, I had TOTALLY not considered that angle. Yeah, as states ban lead ammunition, that’s going to spur development of alternatives which would ordinarily fall under the armor piercing definition unless they are granted a sporting exception.
I wonder if the “straight wall” ammo requirements had a similar impact?
The Supreme Court has stated that they do believe the 2nd Amendment is restricted, but so far, since 2008, they have struck down all challenges:
Washington D.C. can’t ban an entire class of weapon (handguns), or require they be kept locked or disassembled. Militia membership is not required (Heller, 2008).
That same restriction applies to the States as well (McDonald, 2010).
The 2nd amendment applies to all bearable weapons, even those that did not exist at the time of writing (Caetano, 2016).
States cannot apply additional restrictions on gun ownership or possession (Bruen, 2022). Citizens only need to pass a criminal check.
Jordan, people here don’t care whether some bought and paid for judges allowed immoral interpretations of the 2nd amendment. They are arguing that those interpretations are wrong. You can quote legal scripture as much as you like. It doesn’t change the fact that those decisions were wrong and continue to be wrong and our society is worse off because of it.
It doesn’t matter what a bunch of people on the Internet think about the Court or the 2nd Amendment. Their opinion of it has exactly zero legal weight to it.
They CAN change it, and I’ve outlined the ways they can.
Start an Amendment. Do this by getting 290 votes in the House. Good luck with that!
Get the Supreme Court to change their interpretation. That means having a Democratic President when the next 2 judges leave the court (likely Thomas - 75 and Alito - 73, two oldest on the court.)
You have describe the problem perfectly. 2A is an extremely blunt law with zero nuance. At least that’s how it has been interpreted by the courts. And that’s a clearly a huge problem. If the amendment allowed for common sense laws, that would be one thing, but we keep hearing over and over that 2A simply doesn’t allow it. Well then 2A is the problem.
And then the problem becomes you need a new Amendment to change it and that starts by getting a 2/3rds vote in the House… 290 votes.
They can’t get 290 votes to decide who their own leader should be, or that George Santos should be bounced.
We’re actually closer to calling for a full re-write of the Constitution, but when you consider that idea is being driven by the right wing, don’t hold out hope their version will contain gun control.
I do hope that people will eventually realize that Republicans can’t run a government and throw them all out, but I suspect their voters aren’t interested in a functional government either.
If you’re gonna quote the right, then quote all of it, it’s for the purpose of a militia.
Last I checked none of the UA citizens are in one because we have a very well organized military instead which was the immediate down fall of what were typically loosely organized groups.
Every Tom, Dick, and wife-beating Harry doesn’t need to walk around with enough firepower to massacre a neighborhood.
The Constitution is a framework of government, not a goddamn suicide pact. Society and technology have changed since it was written, and we aren’t worried about needing the family musket to form a citizen militia to repel the Brits invading from Canada. And even by the end of the Revolutionary War, the myth of farmer militias gave way to the reality of a professional army.
The national guard would be considered an army. It is not a permanent war economy army like our Army, Navy, Marines, but it is an army nonetheless. Permanent war armies are a relatively modern product.
Personally, I’m much more for dismantling the permanent war economy and reducing the standing army by a few orders of magnitude. So much of our resources are stolen to keep a permanent war footing and maintain our our ~800 overseas bases. With the amount of money we spend to secure global military dominance, every single person in the entire country could have the worlds best healthcare, fully paid, no copays or anything.
As much as I dislike the 2nd Ammendment, American prosperity is built on those overseas bases and the security that they provide to our allied countries. The modern globalized economy, which has benefited us IMMENSELY as a country is built on the promise that in exchange for America keeping the world safe for trade, almost all major countries use the American Dollar to back their own currency, and all oil is paid for in US Dollars.
The real problem is that we aren’t taxing the ultra-wealthy who are the ones getting all the money from the advantages of that globalized economy.
The Constitution is a framework of government, not a goddamn suicide pact.
This is really a the core of the current problem, I think. We'll never get enough votes for an amendment of any kind IMO. R would vote against an amendment from D saying the sky was blue. So now we're at a place where turning schools into prisons due to all the security measures and similar bandaids are the only things we can do.
No meaningful amendment has been passed since the 80s or 90s I think. The only one that has was on the books literally from the 1800’s and was only recently ratified.
There’s exactly a 0% chance of getting 2/3 of the states on board with anything
There’s exactly a 0% chance of getting 2/3 of the states on board with anything
Truly a sad state of affairs, and to use the language of the other poster, it does turn the constitution into a suicide pact from a certain point of view.
“Private citizens have the right under the Second Amendment to possess an ordinary type of weapon and use it for lawful, historically established situations such as self-defense in a home, even when there is no relationship to a local militia.”
Here’s the confusion…
Back when the 2nd Amendment was written, things like “well regulated” and “militia” meant different things than they do now.
The militia was comprised of all able bodied men who could be called up at any time for defense. They were literally members of the general public.
Well regulated meant “well armed and equipped”.
So knowing this, the 2nd Amendment makes perfect sense.
“A well regulated Militia, being necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the people to keep and bear Arms, shall not be infringed.”
Reads as:
“A well armed and equipped populace, being necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the people to keep and bear Arms, shall not be infringed.”
The key phrase here is “right of the people”. All people.
I think it was Jefferson who argued the Constitution should have been re-written every 10 years?
Let me see if I can find the quote…
19 years…
“Every constitution, then, and every law, naturally expires at the end of 19. years. If it be enforced longer, it is an act of force and not of right.”
Madison was the one to kill that idea.
But as it stands, the 2nd Amendment is the law of the land. You don’t have to like it, and there are things you can do about it:
Get an Amendment started. You have to get 290 votes in the House and 67 votes in the Senate. Then get it ratified by 34 State Houses.
Get it re-interpreted by the Supreme Court. You do this by electing Democratic Presidents in '24 and '28. That gives a solid Democratic White House until 2032.
The Supreme Court leans 6-3 Conservative.
The two oldest judges are Thomas (75) and Alito (73). If they are replaced by a Democratic President, that will turn the court back 5-4 Liberal.
When you look at the next three oldest though: Sotomayor (69), Roberts (68), Kagan (63).
It doesn’t do much good to flip Thomas and Alito in the next 10 years, then lose Sotomayor, Kagan, and a reliable swing vote like Roberts 5-10 years after that.
So now you’re looking at having to have Democrats hold the White House in '24, '28, '32, '36 and possibly '40.
Doesn’t writing that all out make you want to cry? The futility of being able to prevent my child from growing up knowing they are simply a target makes me have trouble breathing. I just want it to stop.
Helping other people understand the full ramifications of what they’re talking about actually makes me kind of proud.
On any hot-button issue, there’s a lot of uneducated opinion and emotion on both sides, if I can help guide even one person through to a better understanding of what it all means and what they can do, then I’m not going to cry over it.
If folks on the left want to do with guns what folks on the right did with abortion, it can be done… All you need is 50 years and a bunch of Supreme Court justices.
The thing that I find funny is that through ALL this, nobody has asked me “Well, what would YOU do if you’re so smart?”
Well…
I’d give up trying to ban guns. It’s money and energy wasted on an impossibility.
Examine what CAN be done knowing that banning guns is not an option.
For example:
The ATF form to buy a gun already blocks certain kinds of people from buying a gun. For example: If you’re indicted or convicted of a felony, you can’t own a gun.
We need an analysis of recent shootings and determine how we could change the laws to have prevented them without banning guns.
He was previously arrested on a felony gun charge, was allowed to plead to a misdemeanor, did his time, did his probation, bought more guns and shot up the place.
Here’s a wild idea… maybe make it so gun offenses, misdemeanor or felony, BOTH block you from future gun ownership. Ya think? You’ve already proven you can’t be trusted with a gun.
Or maybe, just maybe, make it so felony gun charges can’t be pled down to a misdemeanor? Felony or nothing.
Each shooting exposes holes in our existing laws that can and should be fixed, but if we get hung up on “well ban guns, hurhurhur” nothing will ever get done.
We were SO CLOSE to stopping that guy before he did anything.
He bought the guns before having auditory hallucinations that landed him in a mental hospital in New York for two weeks.
While New York has a red flag law, he wasn’t a resident of New York. It didn’t apply to him.
Army sent him home, banned him from handling THEIR guns, but Maine doesn’t have a red flag law which would have allowed the state to seize weapons.
So what could we have done? Well… how about getting every state to have a red flag law? Heck, how about a FEDERAL red flag law that could be invoked by, say, the Army, that would apply to all states a soldier might live in?
Again, ya think?
These are the common sense laws we can pass right now, and no Amendment or Supreme Court change is required to do it.
Thank you I guess. The dispassionate very long posts make people not want to ask you what you think because it doesn’t get our hearts racing I suppose. It also very much feels like you are defending and therefore encouraging the status quo by shooting down, pun intended, everyone’s suggestions by quoting established precedent, which we now know means nothing. So it follows that we assume you like things as they stand now whether that is true or not. Why not offer your suggestions much much earlier? No one else is waiting to be asked what they think.
Why are red flags laws acceptable but licensing and permitting isn’t? Why are all guns not classified as “destructive devices”. That is their intended purpose. Why isn’t a “basic gun” only single round rifles?
Lewiston is my home town. We don’t have 50 years.
The left needs to spend money. That’s what this all boils down to to me.
Red Flag laws are acceptable because, before someone has their guns taken away, they do get due process in a court of law.
So somebody gets flagged, they go to court, they get to face their accuser, they get to defend themselves, after all that, a neutral 3rd party (the Judge) makes the call.
That court process is the key thing that defines who can buy a gun and what goes into a background check.
So, for example, the Parkland shooter had been reccomended for an involuntary hold but it never went through a court and a judge. Because of that, it was never applied to his background check and he bought his guns free and clear.
You would think, with all of his problems, SOMETHING would have fouled his background check. Nope! I’d suggest we overhaul what does or does not appear in a background check and make sure kids like this can’t get access to guns.
As written today most red flag laws do not grant due process and will likely be struck down for violation of the 5th ammendment before 2nd amendment arguments are even considered.
I mean, I know it’s pretty common to reinterpret things such as that through a modern lens, and I support this law that’s being overturned, but well-regulated has a very specific definition in 18th century America, and it is not what you describe. Not to mention that ARMING EVERYONE (white, at least, the rest weren’t considered people by those racist fuckheads) was an explicit goal of the US, in order to support their settler colonial project.
“The Second Amendment covers all weapons that may be defined as “bearable arms,” even if they did not exist when the Bill of Rights was drafted and are not commonly used in warfare.”
Well, it specifically included the right to own cannons, and full on gunships also. So, I don’t think they would have been too concerned about a single gun, when they intended for people to own what were then the most destructive weapons available.
The Supreme Court has already allowed restrictions on automatic weapons pre-1986, and there is no ability for manufacturers to sell new automatic weapons to the general public post-1986. Quit bending over backwards to try to make bad (and/or) selective legal theories make sense. They don’t and you’re a shill. Guns are an issue, and if you think they aren’t you can get fukt.
The general public can buy fully automatic weapons, you just have to fill out the proper ATF forms and be prepared to pay a really, really large sum of money. Tens of thousands of dollars.
I saw you argue further down in this thread that the Supreme Court would not allow the restriction of entire “weapon classes”. Well that doesn’t stand up to scrutiny when they already disallowed the sale of any new automatic weapons to the general public post-1986.
I hate these little semantics arguments and word games. This isn’t an issue in other developed countries for a reason. Allowing the kind of debate pervert logic you are employing only serves to muddy the waters and retards society from solving problems with clear, demonstrable solutions. Grow the fuck up, seriously.
They didn’t though. The general public can absolutely buy a fully automatic weapon, you just have to fill out the proper ATF forms and pay the INCREDIBLY high taxes on it. Tens of thousands of dollars.
I watch Forgotten Weapons every fucking day. I am intimately familiar with both the FOPA and FAWB. Both of which repeatedly and continuously stood up to constitutional challenges. The Supreme Court has repeatedly disallowed gun manufacturers from selling new “automatic weapons” (aka a class of bearable arms) to the general public. Additionally the Federal Assault Weapons Ban was repeatedly found to be constitutional, and the only reason new weapons that meet those classifications are sold today is because the FAWB had an automatic sunset clause. It could legally be reinstated by congress at any time.
While it is true that you can get an FFL and purchase a pre-1986 automatic weapon with a transferable tax stamp, the Supreme Court has BANNED the sale of all new automatic weapons. Therefore, your previous argument doesn’t hold water. Take the L and move on.
Tell me you didn’t read my link without telling me you didn’t read my link:
“Depending on the type of FFL, and if the FFL-holder becomes an Special Occupational Taxpayer (SOT) the FFL-holder can purchase and sell machine guns, regardless of when they were made (more on this below), and they can even legally make their own machine guns or lawfully convert current firearms into full-autos. The best part about getting an automatic weapon as an FFL is that you can get it at dealer cost and fast.”
Tell me you don’t understand the meaning of semantics without telling me you don’t understand the meaning of semantics…
You literally argued that the Supreme Court would strike down any need for specialty licensing for purchasing weapons in this same thread as well. Jesus fucking christ. Did you grow up underneath power lines or live in a house with leaded paint or something?
If you need a FFL in order to purchase or trade in automatic weapons then by default those weapons are functionally banned from being sold to the general public. This is precisely why I lead with my comment about jerking off over bad legal arguments that tip-toe around the enforcement of real world solutions that can actually have a legitimate impact on gun violence. So again, from the bottom of my heart, get fukt. 😘
Any member of the general public can apply for an FFL and be allowed to buy a machine gun of any vintage, the only limiter is money and the usual background check.
Again, it’s not a hard concept to grasp. You can do it, I can do it, anyone who isn’t otherwise barred from gun ownership (felon, mental defective, drug user, etc. etc.) can do it.
If I can barge into this comment chain, the confusion seems to stem from your initial comment.
It’s not really “common sense” though. The Constitution clearly says you have a right to own a gun.
The state can’t then come through and require a permit to own a gun.
It’s a Right, not a “right”*.
Isn’t the application of an FFL the state requiring a permit to own a (certain kind of) gun? Likewise, the state telling folks they can or can’t own guns just because of a few measly felonies…isn’t that against a strict interpretation of the Second Amendment? Doesn’t that deny them a “Right”?
The Oregon law is saying that you need a permit to BUY, and that’s where it’s butting heads with the constitution. Everyone who is legal has the right to keep and bear arms, the state can’t interfere with that.
The blockage on felons is a federal restriction, not a state restriction, it’s part of the FFL form you fill out when you buy a gun and is part of the background check.
Felon in possession is it’s own crime, so obviously that’s going to be blocked at point of sale.
The list of disqualifying questions on the firearms form is interesting, it would be nice if more people read it:
Answer the following questions by checking or marking either the “yes” or “no” box to the right of the questions: Yes No
a. Are you the actual transferee/buyer of all of the firearm(s) listed on this form and any continuation sheet(s) (ATF Form 5300.9A)?
Warning: You are not the actual transferee/buyer if you are acquiring any of the firearm(s) on behalf of another person. If you are not the actual transferee/buyer, the licensee cannot transfer any of the firearm(s) to you. Exception: If you are only picking up a repaired firearm(s) for another person, you are not required to answer 21.a. and may proceed to question 21.b.
b. Do you intend to sell or otherwise dispose of any firearm listed on this form and any continuation sheet(s) in furtherance of any felony or other offense punishable by imprisonment for a term of more than one year, a Federal crime of terrorism, or a drug trafficking offense?
c. Are you under indictment or information in any court for a felony, or any other crime for which the judge could imprison you for more than one year, or are you a current member of the military who has been charged with violation(s) of the Uniform Code of Military Justice and whose charge(s) have been referred to a general court-martial?
d. Have you ever been convicted in any court, including a military court, of a felony, or any other crime for which the judge could have imprisoned you for more than one year, even if you received a shorter sentence including probation?
e. Are you a fugitive from justice?
f. Are you an unlawful user of, or addicted to, marijuana or any depressant, stimulant, narcotic drug, or any other controlled substance? Warning: The use or possession of marijuana remains unlawful under Federal law regardless of whether it has been legalized or decriminalized for medicinal or recreational purposes in the state where you reside.
g. Have you ever been adjudicated as a mental defective OR have you ever been committed to a mental institution?
h. Have you ever been discharged from the Armed Forces under dishonorable conditions?
i. Are you subject to a court order, including a Military Protection Order issued by a military judge or magistrate, restraining you from harassing, stalking, or threatening your child or an intimate partner or child of such partner?
j. Have you ever been convicted in any court of a misdemeanor crime of domestic violence, or are you or have you ever been a member of the military and been convicted of a crime that included, as an element, the use of force against a person as identified in the instructions?
k. Have you ever renounced your United States citizenship?
l. Are you an alien illegally or unlawfully in the United States?
m.1. Are you an alien who has been admitted to the United States under a nonimmigrant visa?
m.2. If you answered “Yes” to question 21.m.1, do you fall within any of the exceptions stated in the instructions?
n. Do you intend to sell or dispose of any firearm(s) listed on this form or any continuation sheet(s) to any person described in questions 21(b)-(l) or to a person described in question 21.m.1 who does not fall within a nonimmigrant alien exception?
Sorry, I took a more international route with the terminology: I meant state as in The State, not an individual state in the USA. Federal laws restricting the purchase of a firearm is IMHO the State interfering with the Second Amendment, if you’re taking a severely strict interpretation of it.
So that’s my question: is it OK to have the Federal restrictions on what you can buy (e.g. requiring a permit!), and from disallowing Felons? I’m a gun owner myself, but if you go back to what I opened with: the discrepancy between “The state can’t then come through and require a permit to own a gun” and seemingly OK with some Federal oversight is a hangup for a lot of us. If a handful of laws are common sense (no felons), why can’t we enact other common sense laws?
The federal laws are that you answer the questions truthfully and pass the background check.
Permits come into play if you want to carry concealed, which is a different deal. That’s handled by the individual states.
Some states don’t care at all.
New York had a special permitting system where you had to demonstrate a valid reason for wanting to carry concealed, the Supreme Court struck that down. You can’t demand a special reason to exercise a Constitutional right.
SCOTUS upheld the NFA of 1934 because the appellant in the case had to go into hiding to avoid being murdered, and no one representing his case even made it to court. The court literally only heard the arguments from the gov’t. That’s an incredibly shady way to get a law past SCOTUS review.
Exactly! But there is a LOT of wiggle room with “anyone who engages in insurrection can’t hold public office” and “you have the freedom to not practice anyone else’s religion!”
Again, the word “militia” meant something different back then, and the Supreme Court ruled in D.C. vs. Heller (2008) that Militia membership is NOT a requirement.
And no, felons shouldn’t own weapons. If it were it up to me I’d expand it.
If you look at the Michigan State shooter, he was arrested previously on a felony gun charge, pled out to a misdemeanor, did his time, bought more guns, and shot up the place.
I’d argue that previous gun charges, felony OR missemeanor, should bar you from future gun ownership. You’ve already proven you can’t be trusted with a gun.
I certainly support the scope of that limitation being reduced to violent felony charges, if not all the way to charges related to unlawful possession/use of a firearm with how the state stretches its definitions of laws to oppress people acting against it, like considering organized protest against cop city "domestic terrorism", bail funds for them felony money laundering, and distributing flyers containing public information to members of the public "felony intimidation". Shit, it's a felony to shelter yourself while homeless in Tennessee. I'm against denying any of them the right to arms for life because they pitched a tent as strongly as I'm against denying them the right to vote because of it.
The fascists are armed to their teeth because dumb fucks following dumb rules allowed it.
That’s the reason they are NOT armed to their teeth where I live and if they try to get armed they run a real risk of going to jail. I read about it every other week, because they keep trying and fortunately most keep failing.
And that’s why I as a not so young, but tattooed and obviously liberal looking dude can walk around without a care in the world and I train how to choke a mf out just for my personal enjoyment and not for any real world need to.
I’ll never understand this bizarre fucking response. “Oh it’s so hard to fix this we should just all lie down and die instead”. It’s everywhere but guns and climate change seem to draw it out the most.
If you got a gun without permit you go to jail.
There is a timeframe in which to give away your gun, maybe you even get compensated if you do.
Enforcement is key obviously.
Poof 99% of guns gone.
Worked just fine in Australia which I think had more guns per person than the US but I might be mistaken and can’t be arsed to look up a source for you to ignore.
I am interested in the historical context, but I doubt it will change my opinion that it is fucking stupid to have something like that as part of a constitution.
I would suggest reading, “Gunfight: The Battle Over the Right to Bear Arms in America” by Adam Winkler (ISBN 0393345831). The author has extensive end notes so you can check his sources. (There are also a number of books out there about the use of arms in the struggle for civil rights, but that’s not directly relevant.)
This is greatly condensed. First, under English common law at the time, it was understood that the right to own arms for self defense was an individual right. The English king had previously disarmed groups (Catholics, I think? I’m not sure off the top of me head), and though it had taken a while, English courts had ruled that it was not legal for the gov’t to seize arms from the people. In the Americas, people were just armed. Most people had guns (certain anti-gun researchers have falsely claimed otherwise, but their claims simply don’t stand up), although “people” here is defined as white, male landowners, since women didn’t really have rights, and black people were largely enslaved. The militias of the time were *ALL able-bodied men. The people were legally obligated to provide their own weapons–which meant weapons fit for military service–and to both practice on their own, and muster with the rest of the militia when they were called to do so. The colonists were largely in charge of defending themselves, because it was expensive and slow to send the British army and navy over when colonists had skirmishes with the French or Native Americans. (I’m not making a values judgement on the colonists being colonizers and taking Native American land; just saying that’s the context.) The first real battle of the American Revolution occurred at a period when England was trying to exert more control over the colonies, and decided to seize the weapons that the the colonists had been amassing. The Battle of Lexington and Concord was specifically that; an attempt to seize weapons from the militias.
The people that wrote the constitution intended for the people to be armed, and for the people to be armed with military weapons. Self defense was clearly a consideration, but it wasn’t the only consideration. When you read the things that the leaders of the revolution and authors of the constitution wrote regarding arms, it’s clear that they never intended it to be a right of the government; after all, the constitution gave the government the right to raise an army, so why would you need to have an amendment that also gives the gov’t the right to have arms?
In regards to the violence - I’d argue that guns are not the problem, but are only tools. Switzerland and Finland both have heavily armed populations, but have very, very low murder rates, and very low rates of violent crime in general. The US combines a large number of guns with uniquely bad social and economic conditions; if we effectively address the social and economic conditions, then the issues with violent crime will largely disappear on their own, without the removing the civil rights.
It is not, no. There are no countries where it’s apples-to-apples. Each country is going to have differing gun laws and regulations, so there’s no way to make an absolutely perfect comparison.
Having spoken to Finnish gun enthusiasts, you need to go to a range and shoot a certain number of times in a year in order to get permits to buy, but there are a limited number of ranges, and the slots fill up very quickly. But once you have permits, things like silencers are available without issue. It’s not significantly harder to get tactical/assault-style rifles than it is to get pistols. Background checks don’t seem to be any more significant than the checks that you have to go through in the US. Finns have a strong culture of hunting, as well as shooting Russians, so there’s quite a few gun owners in Finland.
Switzerland has conscription, so most people end up having to serve a year or so in the military, and then have the option of keeping their service rifle. Each canton seems to do their own permitting, but in general it’s not terribly difficult to get permits. Again, it’s not significantly more onerous to get a permit than it is to pass a background check in the US. The Swiss also have a strong culture of competitive shooting. Switzerland in general is pretty monocultural; it’s not easy to emigrate to Switzerland.
Both countries also have very strong social safety nets, and are significantly flatter economically; there isn’t the same kind of economic gulf between the poor and the wealthy in either country that we see in the US. Both countries have a judicial system that’s geared towards reform rather than punishment. Both countries have some form of socialized medicine, so that families aren’t going bankrupt because mom has breast cancer, or dad had a car accident. There’s far, far less religious extremism in both countries (religious extremism really drives the moralistic attitudes in the US towards crime and poverty).
Conversely, we can look at the UK and Australia to see what happens when you remove firearms, but don’t correct social conditions. (England, in particular, has been cutting all social programs.) Violent crime rates–defined as robbery, murder, assault/battery, and forcible rape–are roughly similar in the UK and Australia to the US, although the US has a far higher murder rate overall. Violent crime in the US is more lethal, but the lack of guns doesn’t have any effect on the overall violent crime rates. Rates of forcible rape in Australia are, IIRC, rather significantly higher than they are in the US. (A caveat is that you can never do a perfect comparison in crimes between countries, because the way that a crime is defined in the US will be different than it is defined in e.g. Canada. So these are rough comparisons, but essential correct, even if not perfect in all the particulars.)
The point of Heller was saying that guns in common use couldn’t be banned (and was affirmed to apply to states as well as D.C. in McDonald v. Chicago); many of the gun control laws that prevented ownership of firearms were racist in origin, and so saying that the gov’t can’t do that thing has the effect of invalidating laws rooted in racism.
One of the people that was originally part of the Heller case was a black community activist, and the reason she was removed from the case was lack of standing. She had not actually applied for a permit to own a firearm in the city–because she knew it was illegal–so she got kicked from the case. Heller was the only one of the original plaintiffs that tried to apply for a permit, hence the reason he’s the face. (Heller–the person–was/is a douchebag.)
The fact that cops murder black people is a problem, sure. Do you think that they’re going to stop if black people aren’t armed? The NRA is a rotten organization; I’d recommend the Firearms Policy Coalition as being one that’s more representative of the interests of gun owners, rather than christian nationalists.
He didn’t do it for that purpose, but that’s still the legal effect.
I don’t get it why so many libs–and I mean that in the worst possible way–seem to think that having cops be the only people that can legally be armed is going to have good outcomes. Defund the police because ACAB but also only cops should have guns because they’re totally trustworthy with lethal ordnance. Meanwhile, those of us that have lived outside of upper-middle class urban areas know that cops can’t arrive quickly in an emergency, or simply don’t.
seem to think that having cops be the only people that can legally be armed
Did I say that?
You fucking idiots act like the US is the only country that exists in the world. Why don’t you look at gun violence/crime in countries where even the cops don’t have guns.
The US is way too far gone to ever go to something like that. Half of the country has made firearms a defining feature of their personality. They would literally rather die (and probably take their entire family with them).
Why don’t you look at gun violence/crime in countries where even the cops don’t have guns.
First: I’ve already addressed that. There are social factors that are driving the violence. Other countries with high rates of individual gun ownership don’t see the rates of violence in general, or gun violence in particular, because they don’t have the unaddressed social problems that the US has. Fix the cause, and you fix the violence.
Second: the tools of violence are irrelevant. Violence is the problem, not the tools used. Remove the tools, and the violence continues unabated with different means.
You kid, but that’s a common argument and was an argument against Measure 114. All it does is make it more expensive to own a gun and that’s more of a barrier for minorities.
Still needed to be regulated so they saw a need to make sure that they well trained etc. That didn’t want just anyone to be armed. Today they don’t care if you’re crazy as shit and threatened to kill loads of school kids. The right wants no regulation at all.
I swear we will get this issue fixed soon as one of these nuts start targeting the alt right and GOP.
No, it’s a right because it was deemed necessary to the security of a free state. But the individual right to bear arms was meant to be as part of a “well-regulated” militia, not simply as “everyone can have whatever weapon they want.”
Even our current very loose and I would argue inaccurate interpretation of the 2nd does not contemplate the idea that private citizens should be allowed to own tanks or heavy machine guns or SAMs without a ton of oversight.
And of course none of this touches on the elephant in the room which is the rather obvious fact that if we take originalism seriously, then we have to concede that Madison’s conception of the 2nd as being “necessary to the security of a free state,” no longer applies since he was specifically concerned with large-scale civil insurrections such as Shay’s Rebellion or slave uprisings, and we know very well that militias can play no role in putting down such incidents in a modern context, and to the contrary, generally only serve to exacerbate tensions and escalate violence.
“Private citizens have the right under the Second Amendment to possess an ordinary type of weapon and use it for lawful, historically established situations such as self-defense in a home, even when there is no relationship to a local militia.”
The National Guard pre-dates the 2nd Amendment by 155 years, if the founders really felt a militia wasn’t necessary, they would not have supported an arms bearing public.
I love seeing this argument because nothing makes it clearer that your views aren’t the product of any kind of critical thought, you’ve just been handed an excuse to keep doing what you want and you’ve accepted it with no further questions.
Because even if we just let you have “well regulated means operating well, not subject to regulations”, gun-owners in America still don’t meet that definition.
What good is a militia member who can’t demonstrate basic competence and safety with their weapon, isn’t required to meet any standard of fitness or miltary training, that potentially has a history of punching their wife?
And of course, the founding fathers were absolutely aware of this problem.
Washington spoke of his attempt to recruit from local militias by saying “you may, with almost equal success, attempt to raize the Dead to Life again, as the force of this country”.
In a letter to his nephew he stated “I am wearied to death all day with a variety of perplexing circumstances, disturbed at the conduct of the militia, whose behavior and want of discipline has done great injury to the other troops, who never had officers, except in a few instances, worth the bread they eat.”
So tell us more about how “this is what the founding fathers wanted”.
“a standing army can be carried in any country, does not exceed one hundredth part of the whole number of souls; or one twenty-fifth part of the number able to bear arms. This proportion would not yield, in the United States, an army of more than twenty-five or thirty thousand men. To these would be opposed a militia amounting to near half a million of citizens with arms in their hands, officered by men chosen from among themselves, fighting for their common liberties, and united and conducted by governments possessing their affections and confidence.”
He proposes a standing army no larger than 1/100 of the population or 1/25 able bodied men.
Compared to the militia which is literally “everybody else”.
Aww, don’t be shy, tell us what his motivations were. It was to keep us safe from tyranny right?
Nope, he was concerned Congress couldn’t be relied on to arm the militas they used for slave control. He wasn’t even shy about it. Is this something that’s still important to you? How many school shootings would you say its worth?
Of course, he also spoke of how “An armed and trained militia is the firmest bulwark of republics”, so I guess you’ve only got a small pool of quotes to choose from where he doesn’t undermine your case.
But hey, if “well regulated” means “able to murder unarmed black people”, the pro-gun community really has built a well regulated militia, because some far-right fuckstain does that almost every month.
“It was in response to the concerns coming out of the Virginia ratification convention for the Constitution, led by Patrick Henry and George Mason, that a militia that was controlled solely by the federal government would not be there to protect the slave owners from an enslaved uprising. And … James Madison crafted that language in order to mollify the concerns coming out of Virginia and the anti-Federalists, that they would still have full control over their state militias — and those militias were used in order to quell slave revolts. … The Second Amendment really provided the cover, the assurances that Patrick Henry and George Mason needed, that the militias would not be controlled by the federal government, but that they would be controlled by the states and at the beck and call of the states to be able to put down these uprisings.”
Well… I say “established”, there’s apparently still some debate:
“As Bogus concedes, no direct evidence supports the thesis. Instead, historical fact refutes it. The predecessor of the Amendment was the English Declaration of Rights of 1689, which protected the right of Protestants to have arms. England had no domestic slave population. Beginning in 1776, some states adopted bills of rights that recognized the right to bear arms. Three of them were Northern states that had abolished slavery. When the federal Constitution was proposed in 1787, it was criticized for lacking a bill of rights. Demands for recognition of the right to bear arms emanated from antifederalists, including abolitionists, in the Northern states, while several Southern states ratifed with-out demanding amendments at all.
New Hampshire, whose bill of rights was read to abolish slavery, was the first state to ratify the Constitution and demand a prohibition on the disarming of citizens. The Virginia ratifying convention followed. While some supported an amendment stating that the states could maintain militias if Congress neglected the same, support for the militia was largely tied to rejection of a standing army, not maintenance of slavery. The right to bear arms was proposed in a declaration of rights that had nothing to do with slavery. New York ratifed next, also proposing recognition of the arms right.
James Madison introduced what became the Second Amendment in the first federal Congress, and it worked its way through both Houses without any hint of concern for the interests of slavery. Congress rejected the separate structural amendments that included a proposal for more state powers over the militia.
Rhode Island, the last of the original thirteen states to ratify the Constitution, demanded both recognition of the right to bear arms and abolition of the slave trade. Vermont was then admitted as a state—it had abolished slavery and recognized the right to bear arms in its 1777 Constitution—and it now ratifed the Second Amendment.
Contrary to Bogus, no secret conspiracy was afoot to make “the right of the people” to bear arms an instrument of slavery. Instead, the abolitionists, and then the framers of the Fourteenth Amendment, would use those words to show that “the people” meant just that. African Americans were people and were thus entitled to all of the rights of Americans. The failure at the Founding was not that the rights of citizens were accorded to whites, but that these rights were not accorded to all persons without regard to race. By its very terms, the Second Amendment is a bulwark for the protection of the fundamental rights of all of the people.”
“As Bogus concedes, no direct evidence supports the thesis. Instead, historical fact refutes it. The predecessor of the Amendment was the English Declaration of Rights of 1689, which protected the right of Protestants to have arms. England had no domestic slave population. Beginning in 1776, some states adopted bills of rights that recognized the right to bear arms. Three of them were Northern states that had abolished slavery. When the federal Constitution was proposed in 1787, it was criticized for lacking a bill of rights. Demands for recognition of the right to bear arms emanated from antifederalists, including abolitionists, in the Northern states, while several Southern states ratifed with-out demanding amendments at all.
New Hampshire, whose bill of rights was read to abolish slavery, was the first state to ratify the Constitution and demand a prohibition on the disarming of citizens. The Virginia ratifying convention followed. While some supported an amendment stating that the states could maintain militias if Congress neglected the same, support for the militia was largely tied to rejection of a standing army, not maintenance of slavery. The right to bear arms was proposed in a declaration of rights that had nothing to do with slavery. New York ratifed next, also proposing recognition of the arms right.
James Madison introduced what became the Second Amendment in the first federal Congress, and it worked its way through both Houses without any hint of concern for the interests of slavery. Congress rejected the separate structural amendments that included a proposal for more state powers over the militia.
Rhode Island, the last of the original thirteen states to ratify the Constitution, demanded both recognition of the right to bear arms and abolition of the slave trade. Vermont was then admitted as a state—it had abolished slavery and recognized the right to bear arms in its 1777 Constitution—and it now ratifed the Second Amendment.
Contrary to Bogus, no secret conspiracy was afoot to make “the right of the people” to bear arms an instrument of slavery. Instead, the abolitionists, and then the framers of the Fourteenth Amendment, would use those words to show that “the people” meant just that. African Americans were people and were thus entitled to all of the rights of Americans. The failure at the Founding was not that the rights of citizens were accorded to whites, but that these rights were not accorded to all persons without regard to race. By its very terms, the Second Amendment is a bulwark for the protection of the fundamental rights of all of the people.”
“The Second Amendment protects an individual right to possess a firearm unconnected with service in a militia, and to use that arm for traditionally lawful purposes, such as self-defense within the home.”
McDonald - 2010 (because Heller involved Washington D.C., a 2nd ruling showed that it also applies to states as well).
“The Due Process Clause of the Fourteenth Amendment extends the Second Amendment’s right to keep and bear arms to the states, at least for traditional, lawful purposes such as self-defense.”
Caetano - 2016 - This one is fascinating. I wish more people read it. Woman had an abusive ex, bought a taser to protect herself. MA went after her arguing “tasers didn’t exist back then, 2nd Amendment doesn’t apply.” Supremes “um actually’d” them hard.
“The Second Amendment covers all weapons that may be defined as “bearable arms,” even if they did not exist when the Bill of Rights was drafted and are not commonly used in warfare.”
“The constitutional right to bear arms in public for self-defense is not “a second-class right, subject to an entirely different body of rules than the other Bill of Rights guarantees.” McDonald, 561 U. S., at 780 (plurality opinion). We know of no other constitutional right that an individual may exercise only after demonstrating to government officers some special need. That is not how the First Amendment works when it comes to unpopular speech or the free exercise of religion. It is not how the Sixth Amendment works when it comes to a defendant’s right to confront the witnesses against him. And it is not how the Second Amendment works when it comes to public carry for self-defense.
New York’s proper-cause requirement violates the Fourteenth Amendment in that it prevents law-abiding citizens with ordinary self-defense needs from exercising their right to keep and bear arms. We therefore reverse the judgment of the Court of Appeals and remand the case for further proceedings consistent with this opinion.
It is so ordered.”
Sooo…
When you look at all 4 of these rulings together…
Washington D.C. can’t ban an entire class of weapon, or require they be kept locked or disassembled. Militia membership is not required (Heller).
That same restriction applies to the States as well (McDonald).
The 2nd amendment applies to all bearable weapons, even those that did not exist at the time of writing (Caetano).
States cannot apply additional restrictions on gun ownership or possession (Bruen). Citizens only need to pass a criminal check.
Oh, I agree, and I’d like to go further by including things in the background check that aren’t currently present but should be.
Did you know, if someone goes through an involuntary mental health hold that is not ordered by a judge, that does NOT appear on a background check? Seriously. That shit needs to get fixed.
“A teacher had asked him about his plans after the school year, and he responded, “I want to murder and commit suicide.”[65] He was referred to a hospital for mental health evaluation and counseling but was released after being held for a day and a half.[20][64][66]
The New York State Police did not seek an order from a state court to remove guns from Gendron’s possession.[67][68] The mental health evaluation was not an involuntary commitment, which would have prohibited him from buying guns under federal law.[67]”
It doesn’t matter what I think about Supreme Court decisions, I am neither a lawyer nor a judge. They rule the way they rule, it’s up to smarter people than me to work around that.
I could see, in the wake of Roe v. Wade, a modern underground railroad shuttling women from red states to get the proper care they need. Some states are already attempting to block that, but then that would run afoul of “freedom of movement.”
Nope, I’m not a lawyer or a judge so my opinion on legal matters is 100% irrelevant. It would be nice if more people on the Internet could recognize that. Opinions are like assholes, everyone has one, and while yours may be very important to you, nobody else wants to see it.
So you agree that even “absolute” rights should definitely have limits and be denied to certain people and we’re just arguing about where that line should be then?
Except that there are other restrictions and as has already been pointed out, you still can’t own any weapon you want. This fact is something you should be admitting and grappling with. You can’t simply ignore it, as you seem to want to do. It may be that there’s an intellectually coherent way around it, but if so I have yet to see you or anyone else, let alone the SCOTUS, lay it out.
This intellectual inconsistency is, I would argue, a direct result of the fact that all of the decisions you mention above are based on a faulty reading of the 2nd.
You can own any weapon you want, provided you’re a legal gun owner and you’re willing to fill out the proper ATF forms and pay the (exorbitant) fees and taxes.
You want a machine gun? Here’s how you get a machine gun:
“The original Constitution doesn’t have much to say about the right to vote. Indeed, nowhere in the text does it explicitly say that citizens have the right to vote in elections. Instead, it merely states that anyone eligible to vote for the largest house of a state’s legislature is also eligible to vote for members of the House of Representatives from that state. As a result, states were left with the power to decide who qualified to vote, leading to considerable variation in the nation’s early years. While most states initially restricted voting to property-owning or tax-paying white men, some states, like New Jersey, allowed free Black men and women of both races to vote provided they met the property or tax requirements. While states soon began expanding voting rights to more citizens, this process unfolded unevenly because it was left up to each state. New Jersey actually revoked the vote from Black men and women in 1807 and North Carolina didn’t remove a property qualification until 1856. Similarly, Wyoming granted women the right to vote in 1869, long before all women achieved it nationally. This variability continues today, which is why felons can vote in some states but not in others.”
So some states let you vote from prison, some don’t. Some restore the right on release, some don’t.
The constitution doesn’t grant many extremely important rights – including the right to vote – because it was written by slave owners who didn’t want to grant those rights to slaves and women.
If they did add those things, they would have had to explicitly state those rights were for white men only.
I assume if they had, all the pro-gun people saying “we need to arm mass shooters and idiots because its in the constitution” would also be pro-slavery and anti-suffrage too, since they staunchly oppose changing the constitution no matter how backwards and immoral it may be.
Oh, I’m not opposed to changing the Constitution, I just want people to recognize that given our CURRRENT standing in Congress, it’s a logistical impossibility.
"Sir, this is a time; this is a place. You want to run your mouth? We can be two consenting adults. We can finish it here."
Sen. Markwayne Mullin of Oklahoma
Sen. Bernie Sanders, I-Vt., stopped the altercation from happening, yelling at Mullin: “Stop it! No, no, sit down! You know, you’re a United States senator."
Markwayne was upset about a fuckin tweet. Shame on Oklahoma for voting him in. This is what you get from a MMA fighter, he tries to fight people. 😂
I remember hearing that in middle school about a decade prior to 4chan (similar to ‘the Band 311 means 3 of the 11th letter, KKK’). So my head canon is that it was a school kid joke/meme that carried over to 4chan.
The symbol that actual white nationalists still do at their rallys? Origins don't matter in terms of how it's actively used by groups, Whinnie the Pooh is either a loveable bear or a critique of the Chinese goverment. Mac Tonight is an McDonald's mascot or a racist. A swastika is either Nazis or good luck to Hindus.
All sorts of groups latch on to cultural touchstones.
Oooh, ooh, I hope Gym Jordan, Fivehead Gaetz, Jimbob Squarehead Comer, and Margarine Traitor Greene will offer to fight me for the very mean tweets I’ve sent them!!!
Two consenting adults, eh? 😏 I feel like that phrasing is almost always used before the words in the privacy of their own bedroom. If Markwayne wanted to get topped that bad he should have just asked; why are bottoms like this?
Sen. Bernie Sanders, I-Vt., stopped the altercation from happening, yelling at Mullin: “Stop it! No, no, sit down! You know, you’re a United States senator."
The entire episode devolved, with Mullin and O’Brien calling each other names not normally heard in committee hearings, but they did not get physical.
Sanders yelling at him was then followed by him sitting down while they just kept insulting each other. It’s like when your dog wants to fight another dog, and it obeys your order to sit, but still won’t stop barking aggressively,
My parents were both teachers at private or Christian schools while I grew up, and every year, there’d always be a new couple of kids who’s parents couldn’t quite hack it anymore, so they’d send them to school. But couldn’t bear to send their kids to those secular, godless, evolution teaching, sex driven, minority filled public schools, so they’d send them to my school instead.
Those kids were always some of the dumbest, most ignorant people on the planet. Some figure it out, but most don’t. They just double down. They were usually barely literate, couldn’t do math, and had no social skills. It’s how you end up with a 19 year old freshman who can’t read Dr. Seuss.
I know teachers aren’t paid much, but if you have the audacity to say that you can do a better job than 4 or 5 professionals at teaching your kid every subject, you should have to take a test to be certified, and your kid needs testing too. Some states require it, most don’t, and it shows.
I know teachers aren’t paid much, but if you have the audacity to say that you can do a better job than 4 or 5 professionals at teaching your kid every subject, you should have to take a test to be certified, and your kid needs testing too. Some states require it, most don’t, and it shows.
Jesus, this makes so much sense that it’s scary to think it’s not universal. Sure, you can teach your kids. Just get certified to do so first. It doesn’t even have to be the same certification as professional teachers, but just a bare minimum, pass the GED level of education. To not have this kind of requirement really seems like society failing those kids.
I don’t feel like a GED is even close to a good standard. Setting the GED as the bar is like setting the bar low enough to be in the hell they’re teaching kids about. But I guess it’s at least something.
Like we are comparing a GED here to people who have masters degrees and sometimes relevant training or degrees in what they teach. It’s like saying “hey if you want to perform an at home DIY surgery on your family, that’s fine, but please play this game of Operation first.”
I totally hear you. I meant GED as in the parent would be able to pass the GED exams now, not that they passed it 20 years ago. I think it would at least be something that could act as a minimum requirement that they can at least understand the material.
The protests are that much more notable because the pharmacists don’t have a union and aren’t asking for better pay. They primarily want their employers to hire more staff to alleviate the workload and to eliminate policies that push them to work faster. They say those conditions are making it more likely they will make a mistake that could harm a patient.
Highlighting because people don’t read articles - they are protesting to ensure patients are safe from the speed of greed. I for one would like my medication properly compounded and dosed. Good for these workers, get them more hands.
Abortion, to the point where he said that the 10-year-old girl who got raped and needed to travel to Indiana to get an abortion was lying about it until the police arrested the guy and he confessed.
Regulating big tech
Taxes, Spending, pretty broadly
Same-sex marriage
He's an extremist. They do not have the political power to elect an extremist from their ranks. They need a moderate.
In all seriousness, community is the biggest benefit of religion, and the reason I’m ok with it existing in modern society. The idealized church (and these do still exist in smaller churches) is a safe place for people to come, not be judged, and find acceptance and support.
A friend of mine goes to a church like this, and honestly sometimes I’m jealous. I’m as atheist as they come in my personal beliefs, but hearing all the actually cool stuff they do to support their members is really cool. I don’t agree with their religion, but they’re practicing it right as far as I’m concerned.
Religion should absolutely be either personal or small community, though. As soon as you have states using it as justification for violence, that religion has stopped being useful or acceptable.
Agreed, it’s mostly community as far as personal benefits. We had a friend group through it that fell apart recently and my wife wants to go back to church only for the community.
Outreach is mostly a guise in my opinion, a show that’s put on to make the congregation think their money is being used wisely. I have a lot of disdain for organized religion though, having grown up in it and painfully “deconstructing” a couple years ago. I can’t step foot in a church ever again (minus a wedding).
Yeah, for sure there’s some scummy stuff churches can do with money. Again, that’s not EVERY church, and the bigger it gets, the more likely the preacher has a supercar. Some have actual accountability, and actually spend the money helping congregation, but it can take some looking to find them, and unfortunately they’re overshadowed by the Joel Olstein style mega churches.
Traditionally, churches and other religious institutions, have been good at building community and programs that benefit the less fortunate among us. You know, the whole “love your neighbor as yourself” thing.
More and more, though, it has devolved into not much more than political extremism and often hateful rhetoric and even calls to physical violence.
I don’t think that is new. It’s true that it helps. But religions have always been involved in war. Up until 200 years ago the Pope was the most powerful person on the planet for at least 1000 years.
As a Brit I’m always shocked people focus on us so much. Like yeah we fucked up a lot of places and did awful things, but basically every country in Europe has committed atrocities that are as bad if not worse, like the French in Vietnam or Belgium in Africa, or mother fucking Spain basically wiping put the entire south American continent.
We aren’t giving the others a pass, but this shitshow has a certain Etonian stench. It’s like the British Empire looked at Zionist and saw a shared colonial heart…
Most of the current day border conflicts are related to the past century’s British policy, both due to the extent of the British Empire and its little interest in preventing trouble in their way out. You see similar issues with French ex-colonies, but since they weren’t as many they don’t appear as much in the news. Border conflicts in old Spanish colonies mostly took place during the 19th century, and they’ve been independent for long enough for their current issues not to have as much to do with Spain anymore. In contrast, there are British people alive today who were kicking around when the victors of WWII decided to split Palestine in half without asking Palestinians for their opinion, and afterwards chose to ignore the ethnic cleansings of Palestinians.
In any case, you shouldn’t take of this personally, unless you actually hold any position of relative power.
Palestinians were in fact asked for their opinion before the UN voted to split it in half…
Do you have a source for this?
There’s a shituation very comparable to Palestine happening today in Western Sahara. A former colony of Spain.
Fair enough. Spain had an UN mandate that ordered them to oversee the process of decolonization, and instead they just gave it up to Morocco against the wishes of the Saharawi people themselves. The contemporary attitude of both the US and Spain is disgusting in this issue.
I replied to a post that claimed they weren’t asked for their opinion. Instead of working with the UN to decide on how the territory should be split they just said “we don’t care”. It’s like refusing to go to your divorce or custody hearing because you think it’ll be unfair
Their plan was to get the neighbouring countries to invade and capture the entire territory
So the majority of Palestinians just flat out refused to discuss splitting their country apart, just like it would happen everywhere. The way in which you presented facts is disturbingly misleading.
You see similar issues with French ex-colonies, but since they weren’t as many they don’t appear as much in the news.
Or people aren’t as aware of them. E.g. notably their mandates in Syria and Lebanon after World War 1 where they intentionally stirred divisions on the basis of a theory of wanting to keep it so France as a mediator was needed in order to keep them stable. And then they fucked off and left chaos behind.
Fair enough. Also, English speaking people will be relatively less exposed to conversations in French, which should be more oriented towards French colonies than English colonies.
I think the general focus comes from the particular reach of the British empire controlling ~ a quarter of the world, but I agree every major power has done it
That said, in this particular conflict, it’s more about how right after WWII , around the time when the United nations was founded. The world powers knew they basically owned the world at this point with nuclear tech, but justified it by arguing they should use this power to preserve countries borders.
Around the same time when the world powers are saying this, land that Britain colonized in Palestine was given to create Israel. Which is hypocritical.
I can understand machiavellianism in the context of pre 1950 geopolitics, but there will never be peace because of the decision making of Western powers doing something they have acknowledged is unethical
1/4 yes, but also worth mentioning that today far more than 1/4 of the present-day population live in that quarter of the world that has a history of being under British rule in recent history.
Couple that with the UK population being far more likely to be proud of the empire, wish Britain still had an empire, and insist the colonies wee left better off for having been oppressed, the British Empire has a certain stench about it many of the others haven’t, or haven’t anymore because of either age, a greater willingness to admit it was a bad thing, or lack of scale.
I think Hong Kong is the rare exception that’s at least possible to reasonably argue, since the alternative was never independence but being ruled by someone granting even fewer freedoms.
Three things: Scale, recency and contrition or perceived lack thereof.
The British Empire is the largest empire there has ever been. At its greatest extent, in 1920, it covered about 1/4 of the entire world, long after having lost many holdings like the US. The second largest, the Mongol Empire, reached almost the same size, but hundreds of years earlier.
In the same time period as the British, the Russian empire covered <20% in 1895, but its proportion of colonial lands to their own was much smaller than for the British Empire and the proportion of the current world population living in those areas is also much smaller. The French colonial empire covered less than 1/10th of the world at its peak in 1920, and was by far the largest recent holding of colonies outside the holding country.
Spain is rarely brought up, I think, in large part because the Spanish empire reached its peak in the early 1800’s and so is “history”. Belgium doesn’t get discussed at much because 98% of their colonial holdings was Leopold II’s personal ownership of the Congo Free State. And then we get to the last bit: Contritition.
Nobody goes around saying the massive scale of gross abuse that happened under Leopold II’s rule of the Congo Free State was a good thing. Few people I’ve met ever defend France’s atrocities in Vietnam. Even the defence of their ownership of Algeria, which was special enough to trigger an attempted coup against Charles de Gaulle when he wanted to let it have independence because many saw it as part of France itself, is relatively muted.
But there’s still mainstream support for the British Empire in the UK. There are still people who insist the British Empire was awesome for the colonies that were exploited because they got English and rails and British legal systems and that somehow outweighs the mass murder and brutal exploitation and erasure of local cultures.
E.g. this survey from 2019, where 32% were proud of the British Empire, 37% were neutral, and only 19% considered it “more something to be ashamed of”. 32% were proud of their country’s history of colonialism and oppression. Critically this was significantly higher than for other colonial powers other than the Dutch. At the same time 33% thought it left the colonies better off vs. only 17% who thought they were worse off.
I’m not British, but I’ve lived in the UK for 23 years, and I’ve experienced this attitude firsthand from even relatively young British people (ok, so all of them have been Tories) - a refusal to accept that the fact that a substantial number of these former colonies had to take up arms to get rid of British rule might perhaps be a little bit of a hint that the colonial rule was resented and wrong.
No other modern empire has left behind such a substantial proportion of the world population living in countries that have either a historical identity tied up to rebelling against British rule, and/or have relatively recently rebelled against British rule, and/or still have substantial reminders, such as Commonwealth membership or the British monarch as their monarch. When a proportion of the British population then keeps insisting this was great, actually, there you have a big part of it.
Religion is a plague. It’s the reason we’re going to destroy ourselves. How many of the people who deny climate change (and every other batshit insane position taken by lunatics) are religious right-wingers? By far, most.
the communist elite in china don’t give AF about climate change and they’re nothing close to “right wing” or religious. you’re just cherry picking to make a (very weak) point.
Ricky Gervais said something super interesting to Stephen Colbert, who is a Catholic. It was something like “We actually agree on a lot more than you think. You think that thousands of other religions aren’t true. I think the same thing, plus one more.”
The one thing most religions agree on is that all other religions should be eradicated from the world until only the true one remains. Turns out they are ALL right!
I think that had more to do with symbolizing a change in the direction of the company (ie: metaverse) and also a global name for a variety of products (instead of just Facebook) rather than just trying to hide who they are. They don’t even have any Meta-branded products. Facebook is still Facebook, Instagram is still Instagram, and WhatsApp is still WhatsApp.
I can see your point but it more so comes off as a “rebrand”. Trying to distance themselves from what they used to be so hopefully people forget all the shit they pulled.
That said, it very well may be just an attempt to shift the direction of a company but I highly doubt thats really the motive or the only intention.
They’ve already removed their logo from several products (ex: Nestlé Pure Life is just Pure Life now). Now you have to check back of the label more closely to avoid them. But rebranding would make that more difficult. Instead of actually stopping the human rights violations they rather just do this. It’s disgusting.
I’m not surprised. I’ve heard stories as far back as 2015 or 2016 about people storming out in the middle of their pastor’s sermon because the pastor directly quoting Jesus’ sermon on the mount was too “woke.”
Mark my words: if conservatives can no longer advance their cause under the guise of Christianity, they won’t abandon conservatism. They will abandon Jesus.
This is an extremely interesting thought experiment, and one that is not without precedent. I left a comment below about the misrepresented and often repeated claims regarding Hitler’s (as well as Nazism more broadly) views on religion, occultism, and atheism.
I bring this up again here because what happened in Germany was essentially the opposite of the proposition you are suggesting. Instead of throwing Jesus out of Christianity, Hitler made a specific and distinct push to remove any perceivedly Jewish teachings from what became German “Positive Christianity”. This included the removal of the Old Testament, the Pauline epistles, and the framing of Jesus as a dogmatic Aryan ideologue who opposed the teachings of Jewish mysticism.
The notion that the modern crypto-fascist & christian-nationalist movements might take the opposite approach by throwing out or obfuscating the teachings of Jesus which they perceive as liberal or socialist in nature and therefore counter to the authoritarian hegemony they seem to be advocating for is a fascinating proposition. I also happen to believe you are correct, and that we have been seeing this happen in real time over the last several decades at least.
I am sincerely afraid that the most damaging threads of the 20th century will be repeated again, and I’m not so sure that humanity is as prepared as it should be to fight against that potentiality. The destruction of education in this country, and the tears in the facade of infinite-growth-capitalism have made the United States the perfect hotbed for this kind of ideology to rise again…
No country joined WW2 to liberate the Jews. No one is going to fight China for the Uyghurs. These are atrocities that help sell the morality of a war fought for other reasons. Defeating the Nazis was certainly a moral victory and they were a great evil, but that’s not why we fought them.
No one is coming to the rescue of the Uyghurs. Enduring sanctions is likely to be the worst consequence China faces.
While not the worst consequence, there’s also been a great destruction of culture.
Japan and Korea have been becoming more popular on the world stages, where they’re celebrated for anime and pop songs. Meanwhile, for all its money, and all its genuinely rich and interesting history, entering a forum to announce you’re Chinese might end up prompting snarky responses like “Oh hey, do they give you your own Uyghur family to treat as slaves?”
They won’t think they’re abandoning Jesus. They will start worshipping some different badass with the same name who brings vengeance upon his enemies with swift application of firearms. They’ll call that entity Jesus, but it will have no relationship to the Christian concept of Jesus.
Well, that’s what religious people have always done. They follow a religion until it disagrees with them, then they leave and start a new ‘slightly different’ branch which agrees with them.
You know, sort of like how Catholicism was founded about 30 years after Jesus’ assumed death date, but then 1600 years later, Baptists decided to branch off create their own flavor.
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