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r00ty Admin , in Teen pizza delivery driver shot at multiple times after parking in the wrong driveway
r00ty avatar

I'm not American and I'll never understand your fascination with guns.

But to me the important aspect is the driver was already moving away when shot at, or immediately did so once shooting began.

Surely this invalidates any self defense claim? If you shoot and they retreat, you stop shooting, right?

jordanlund ,
@jordanlund@lemmy.world avatar

It actually varies state by state which is part of the problem.

Here in Oregon, there are only 3 use cases where lethal force is allowed:

  1. Someone is about to use lethal force on you.
  2. Someone is about to use lethal force on someone else.
  3. Someone breaks into your home.

That’s it.

In Tennessee…

casetext.com/…/section-39-11-614-protection-of-pr…

“© Unless a person is justified in using deadly force as otherwise provided by law, a person is not justified in using deadly force to prevent or terminate the other’s trespass on real estate or unlawful interference with personal property.”

BUT:

mcelaw.com/…/what-are-the-rules-on-self-defense-i…

“According to Tennessee law, individuals can use deadly force if they reasonably believe it is necessary to avoid death or serious bodily injury at the hands of another person.”

So in this case, even if Pizza guy had been messing with perps car, lethal force wouldn’t be authorized.

hddsx ,

I don’t think he’d win, but Tennessee is a castle doctrine state.

If he had reasonable belief that the pizza delivery driver was breaking in, the home owner is likely justified to use deadly force.

I’m pretty sure it doesn’t apply to shooting out of your house unless you’re being shot at, though.

SuiXi3D ,
@SuiXi3D@fedia.io avatar

I’m not American and I’ll never understand your fascination with guns.

Hell, I’m a born and raised Texan and I don’t get it either.

Thorny_Insight ,

I’m from Finland and I definitely get it. It’s the same exact reason for why I loved shooting soda cans with my bb gun as a kid and airsofting as little older. I’d definitely buy a real one if I could and I’m glad I can’t.

ArcaneSlime ,

Babcock told police what he could see on his Ring camera made him think someone was breaking into his car, so he went outside and started shooting.

He’s already invalidated that claim with his own words. In the US you’re only allowed to use deadly force in proportional response, to prevent death or great bodily injury to yourself or another innocent party.

FilterItOut ,

Sorry, but that’s not exactly right, because in several areas, the prevention of death or great bodily harm also includes the scenario where if you were to attempt to reclaim control over your property, you would be putting yourself in those same risk categories. See 9.42 (3)(B) here, where I have had the misfortune of having to research the law before. In other words, if you think the person is stealing your stuff and could harm you if you try to recover said stuff… well, you’re ‘legally’ allowed to start blasting.

ArcaneSlime ,

Not exactly. You can defend property with normal force, and if that turns deadly you can then be authorized to use deadly force, but the deadly threat does still have to present itself.

As in, he could have walked outside, gun in holster or even in hand at low ready, and said “get the fuck out of here,” or punched or OC sprayed him (of course, this is all if he was actually stealing the car, since he wasn’t this would also be assault, but ykwim), and then if the guy pulls a knife, or blunt instrument like a pipe, or goes for a gun instead of retreating, then you can shoot him.

These laws are all very state specific, as well, but by and large that’s how it works, you can’t just start blasting because “well anyone could have a gun or knife.”

That said, it’s still up to the DA to bring charges and the jury to convict, even though it is a crime I’m sure you can find a case that fits the description where the guy got off, hell OJ got off, but it is still illegal. In this case the DA did bring charges, which indicates to me it’s illegal enough that the DA thinks they can win.

FilterItOut ,

I’m disagreeing with your statement that “you’re only allowed to use deadly force in proportional response,” not with whether this case is being prosecuted rightly or not.

Mate, read that link I put in there. I can tell you, from experience, that if you shoot at someone stealing your property in Texas, where that penal code I posted is from, that exact portion of the statute is going to be used and you will not be convicted. It really is “anyone could have a gun or knife.” At least Texas has it so just theft has to be during the nighttime, so I guess that’s something.

You’ll also get similar worded statutes in many other states in the US, several of which, stating this again, where I’ve had the misfortune of having to research those laws. And that “reasonable belief” part about exposing yourself to risk of serious bodily injury or death? I have seen it applied to people who are simply physically larger than you. Proportional response is a moot concept.

ArcaneSlime ,

Ah yes the “that literally only applies to texas and only at night which means it must be true for the whole US” thing, I’ve heard this one before.

FuglyDuck ,
@FuglyDuck@lemmy.world avatar

generally, the right to self defense requires a reasonable belief that there is imminent, severe bodily harm; and even then, the measures you take must be proportionate and reasonable. every state has it’s own nuances, though.

As far as the general laws go… somebody standing on a street corner leering at you? it’s proportionate and reasonable to cross the street. Somebody brandishes a firearm and says they’re going to kill you? it’s reasonable to believe them. (unless you know them, and you know they’re joking. Details. those kind of jokes aren’t really funny though.)

Simple trespass is not itself a threat. The teen was presumably unarmed. At no point was the asshole reasonably in need of self defense.

meco03211 ,

Mostly yes. Consider an actual deadly threat with someone shooting at you. You start shooting back and they duck for cover. They shoot again, you shoot again, and again they duck for cover. If I was on that jury, I’m not convicting you for shooting at the person ducking for cover. This is an extremely specific and nuanced hypothetical. So mostly yes, but there could be some million to one scenario that doesn’t follow that track.

FuglyDuck , in World's ugliest dog? Meet Wild Thang, the 8-year-old Pekingese who took the 2024 crown
@FuglyDuck@lemmy.world avatar

Maybe it’s Maybelline, but maybe it’s make believe.

Doesn’t seem too ugly though. Just needs a shampoo and a trim.

irotsoma , in The United States will need 7 million migrants to cover old age support programs for baby boomers
@irotsoma@lemmy.world avatar

Or eliminate the cap on the tax so they actually pay their fair share. That would fix all the problems that Social Security and Medicare have in an instant.

TransplantedSconie , in ‘We’ve all broken the Ten Commandments’: The evangelicals still backing Trump

"Woe to you, teachers of the law and Pharisees, you hypocrites! You shut the kingdom of heaven in men’s faces. You yourselves do not enter, nor will you let those enter who are trying to. Woe to you, teachers of the law and Pharisees, you hypocrites! You are like whitewashed tombs, which look beautiful on the outside but on the inside are full of the bones of the dead and everything unclean. In the same way, on the outside you appear to people as righteous but on the inside you are full of hypocrisy and wickedness.” (Matthew 23:13, 27-28)

NauticalNoodle , in An 8-year-old girl was sucked into a swimming pool pipe at a Hilton hotel. The management company blamed her parents

well that article was exactly as awful as the headline sounds.

NaibofTabr , in ‘We’ve all broken the Ten Commandments’: The evangelicals still backing Trump

But have you broken all ten of the commandments? gotta get those numbers up.

RememberTheApollo_ , in Trump says he wants foreign nationals who graduate from US colleges to ‘automatically’ receive green cards

The part he hasn’t said yet is that he wants Mexico to pay for that, too. So there’s his out.

Nobody , in ‘We’ve all broken the Ten Commandments’: The evangelicals still backing Trump

“Trump is a sociopathic bully who claims to be a victim. If we follow his path, we can ruthlessly attack everyone we hate and still play the victim card. We’ll get back to ethics and morals and all that stupid shit later after everything we hate has been exterminated.”

sarcasticsunrise , in DeSantis vetoes all arts grants in Florida
@sarcasticsunrise@lemmy.world avatar

This high heeled tough guy wannabe is the living embodiment of poor and spiteful decision making. Nothing he does helps anybody. It’s fascinating really. Everyday I wake up I count my blessings I escaped that shit hole state

Chozo , in DeSantis vetoes all arts grants in Florida

How much you wanna bet that somebody tied to the arts recently emasculated Ron in public? Pulling funding from a huge swath of people over a petty personal embarrassment is a very on-brand move for DeSantis.

TheBigBrother , in Pastor Robert Morris tried to scare his sex abuse victim with threat of prosecution

Pastors gonna pastor…

fah_Q , in ‘We’ve all broken the Ten Commandments’: The evangelicals still backing Trump

You don’t believe in my nonsense. I don’t practice my nonsense. It’s all feelings does this remind you of anyone?

Sakychu , in Motion after motion puts Trump Florida case in slow motion as 3-day hearing begins

Maybe the judge should make a motion on Trumps face /j

ryan213 , in Israeli soldiers who drove with wounded Palestinian tied to their vehicle 'violated orders', military says
@ryan213@lemmy.ca avatar

Their orders were to drag them.

kandoh , in US family sues Nasa for $80,000 in damages after space debris hits home

Imagine if space shit killed your dog

morphballganon ,

Or your parent/guardian

AmosBurton_ThatGuy ,
@AmosBurton_ThatGuy@lemmy.ca avatar

Fuck right off, my life sucks enough. My precious little dog is my one ray of sunshine in my life, he’s always happy to see me and never fails to bring a smile to my face. Dogs are just the best, idk how anyone could possibly not like them, it just doesn’t compute for me.

kandoh ,

Yeah I love dogs too

AmosBurton_ThatGuy ,
@AmosBurton_ThatGuy@lemmy.ca avatar

Dogs are the best, I’ll never understand how people can dislike them.

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