While I agree, what might everyday people use to set up forums as relatively easily and cheaply as their Discord servers, and not have them riddled with ads or other clunky elements?
I’m pretty sure those that may have even been considering forums went to Discord because the only other options were more involved in terms of set up/maintenance and cost, the latter to get something without ads.
what might everyday people use to set up forums as relatively easily and cheaply as their Discord servers, and not have them riddled with ads or other clunky elements?
Discourse is a clean open source forum software that is commonly used for application support and well suited for it.
Or if your a real die hard for the fediverse, you could set up a lemmy instance for application support. There’s even a phpBB frontend for an oldschool forum look and feel for it.
Usually everyday people don’t setup forums, that’s the responsibility of the application owner(s) or provider. In this case, the easy option is also the shitty option if measured by discoverability of the content.
Usually everyday people don’t setup forums, that’s the responsibility of the application owner(s) or provider.
By this do you mean official forums? If so I think this is kind of missing some of the independent forums for software (whether games or media players or the like) or other media, which some sorta-everyday people set up in the past. Many have migrated to Discord not only because it’s easy but, I think, because it’s simply more cost-effective.
Forums don’t seem to be cheap. Discourse’s own managed hosting goes for $50 a month, from one of their partners it’s $20, and looks like somewhere in-between if you try to spin it up yourself (e.g. Digital Ocean droplet runs $4 a month, then add in domain, and mail-provider (~$20-35)). Looking at that, it’s little wonder so many either opt for official forums, unofficial subreddits, Lemmy/Kbin communities, or Discord servers instead now.
Maybe if I dug around some more I could find some options for managed hosting (which makes more sense for regular people, I think, to deal with technical maintenance) for Discourse or the like that are cheaper, but I can’t imagine one may find much that beats free. Unless there is something, unfortunately I guess we’re kind of stuck with the situation as-is barring some pleasant exceptions.
Yeah, I was referring to official forums for technical support or feature requests and the like. I don’t really think that everyday people were usually the ones who setup forums, it is website operators and other techies who set those up. The people who setup an independent forum are not the same people who setup a discord community. Discord has a much lower barrier to entry that usually results in a lower quality information and moderation than a forum would.
I mean, yeah, forums are harder, for sure. $20-35 monthly for a mail provider seems to high to me; I would expect that to be about the yearly cost. But, I don’t really have much experience with an email provider for that use case. Really the problem lies in that a website operator and a community maintainer are 2 very different types of people that rarely intersect.
Just hoping we get some github alternative on fediverse, so far Ive seen codeberg but its hosted by a non profit org in berlin… Which is great but for e.g. I cant contribute to the code without creating an account on their instance
it used to be but they’ve been focusing heavily into corporate clients and shutting off special treatment/support for foss software projects the past couple years
Matrix chat works pretty well too.
It’s ~ as convenient as Discord. More convenient in certain cases. And one might be able to easily use the API to create an Archive site for all discussions in there.
In other cases, you have the ability of encrypted conversations, which of course you won’t be archiving. Right?
90% of the projects that i use and other people care about are developed by people that have the technical ability to set up and host a web server. They likely have the cash. It’s not exactly outrageously expensive. If it’s small enough they dont have the cash for it, they don’t need it.
Im guessing the discord was more of a legacy thing, someone was like “hey im having a problem, can you contact me on discord?” and then suddenly we have the rust discord server.
For a quick question yes, but if you try to search a solution for a problem it’s actual hell, 1000s of BS messages and countless other problems just thrown in one timeline.
You can either search through it for hours or ask the question which was answered 10 times before.
convenient for what? forcing me to join a server, go through onboarding, and potentially even deal with not having enough spyware loaded on my information, at best waiting 10 minutes to say ANYTHING, and at worst not being able to say anything at all.
Not to mention these on boarding processes can explode and cause problems from time to time. Discord is only convenient for real time chatting, nothing else.
It’s awful. It goes by channel and the cursed interface make it hard to search because when you go back after viewing a post it starts at the very top again. Then people shit on you for not searching through loads of shit and normal chat channels to find a bunch of disjointed info woven into random unrelated banter.
I miss the days when I could search the problem, open a browser tab for each one that seems relevant, and close the tab when it turns out not to be, and have my search tab right where I left it. Discord just gives me an aneurysm every time I open it and try to bungle through the UI. Not to mention being asked to sign in almost every time I open it, and they moved the qr code log in option to be harder to find on the mobile app.
lemmy isn’t terrible, but you aren’t going to find diehard thinkpad enjoyers flashing them with coreboot here, and you certainly are likely to find much if any documentation on it here either. Maybe reddit. Forums though? Daily occurrence.
Those “forum” channels are locked behind community servers, for some reason. And also still not a replacement for forums. Still not publicly accessible. Threads also suck btw. Matrix likely wouldnt copy them, because forums exist.
I think my dumbest customer story isn’t programming-related but still related to computers. I worked in a small computer repair shop about 3000 years ago, and one day a customer comes in with their family computer that’s “not working.” It turned out to be full of viruses and malware, and when we started working on it it turned out this was due to somebody visiting shady porn sites and clicking on download buttons left and right. I explain the situation to her and then recommend steps on how to avoid this happening in the future, so how to browse safely, antivirus software etc. She feelt a bit embarrassed and says that it’s her son, and that she’ll give him a talking-to.
A few weeks later the same customer comes back with the family computer and this time she’s visibly annoyed, and curiously she’s brought along the keyboard, mouse and monitor. The computer’s got viruses again, and it’s my fault. Why? Because she’d had a talk with her son who had then sworn up and down that he’ll mend his filthy ways. When new viruses cropped up, his explanation was that obviously they’re in the keyboard, mouse and monitor too, and since they hadn’t been in the shop they were still infected and we were just too incompetent to have known this. Naturally she believed her son over my word, and started demanding that we remove the viruses from all the peripherals. I tried for a very long time to explain that it’s just not possible (this was a time when PS/2 connectors were still pretty common and that’s what they had so it wasn’t even theoretically possible), but she wouldn’t budge because her son was a computer whiz (he wasn’t) and a Good Boy™ and would never lie, so clearly I was either incompetent or lying.
Finally I just relented and said “OK you got me, it’s possible your viruses came from the peripherals but I just didn’t want to mention it because removing them is so time-consuming and difficult”. I took all their hardware in and had it unfucked in pretty short order, and I looked at the browser history to make sure that it really was a reinfection via the web, which it was (I remember Pamela Anderson featuring in a lot of the searches, which we techs giggled at.)
I kept their hardware at the shop for a couple of weeks; it’s a tricky and demanding job to remove viruses from mouses, keyboards and monitors, remember? When writing the bill I charged her double the time I actually put in – she didn’t want to pay at all because she felt it was our mistake but at that point my boss, who was a formidable lady, practically put her boot up the customer’s ass and made her cough up the money.
She left in a huff never to be seen again, thank the gods.
She was an asshole who wanted me to redo work for free because she believed her son over someone who actually knew what they were doing, and after tens of minutes of wrangling I just went “fuck it” and obliged her request to sanitize the peripherals. The sum wasn’t all that big to begin with, so it’s not like she was on the hook for hundreds of euros – probably got a 50€ bill instead of a 20€ one. Not knowing any better obviously wasn’t the problem here, but if that’s your takeaway then I really don’t know what to tell you.
So yes, I did it.
No, I’m not sorry.
Yes, I’d do it again.
People are quick to judge without considering the circumstances. Wasn’t the customer’s attitude equally wrong? Aren’t you implying that the service person should have let her bully him?
In a customer service setting, often times that’s all you can do. The customer knows what they want, and particularly if there’s money to be made, your employer will require you to do so. It sounds like this place wasn’t exactly like that, but dude said multiple times this was unnecessary, and the customer still wanted it. He told them it’d be long and expensive. And unnecessary. They said do it. At a certain point, we have to trust that the customer really is their best advocate, and just do what they want.
Is it really a scam if you tell them up front the work is unnecessary, you don’t want to do it, and they insist? At a certain point, it’s the customer hoisting themselves by their own petards.
I have a similar one! I did house calls. I got called out on a warranty call, someone said a coworker of mine didn’t fix the problem. I look in the notes and the coworker says he did a standard virus removal, suggested virus protection but was turned down.
I get there and sure enough it’s riddled with viruses again. Coworker was legit, notes all in order, I tell the client that this isn’t a warranty issue, the work was done, and it has now been reinfected and will need another removal. He seems fine with this, but his wife flips out and demands I prove it got reinfected.
I suggest that we can check the web history. Since it was popping up ads, we’d see when the pop-ups started, and more importantly we’d see if they had stopped after coworker left. Guy says that’s unnecessary, it definitely got reinfected, and this time he’ll buy an antivirus. Wife is having none of it, says go ahead and check and I’ll see the problem was never fixed. I ask if they’re sure, guy kind of resignedly says to do it.
I’m not one to kink shame, but when all the trans porn site titles came up, the dude was clearly mortified. I didn’t get very far into trying to figure out if I can prove it’s related before the wife says “just fix the damn thing” and stormed out. I hope it wasn’t too bad for him, she seemed a bit difficult to deal with.
The son scammed her. He told her she needed to disinfect peripherals. The tech is just allowing that to happen and charging a not listening to the tech fee.
They wrote in plain text that the customers son’s word had been taken over a word of a techie. So it’s either pushing more to convince her, refusing service or playing dumb.
Tech tried to tell them it was unnecessary, would take forever, and would be expensive. I’d agree with you if, for a second, the customer sounded like they wanted to drop the matter. No, this was the customer absolutely digging their heels in, and the tech did what they could to get an irate woman out of the store.
At a certain point, you have to just let people make their mistakes, and get out of their way. This is exactly how I interpret the situation.
what lie? they told the customer the truth from the beginning, and still agreed to the customer’s demands to work on the problem. they agreed to remove all viruses from the peripherals, which they did, because the peripherals were returned to the customer at the end virus-free.
It’s called the asshole tax, and it’s what happens when you believe a child over the person you’re paying to fix your/their mistake (again).
Having run my own computer repair side business for a while, I would have (and have) absolutely done the same thing in the situation. I also had repeat fliers that realized their mistakes and didn’t try to blame me for their failure, and the nicer ones even got a discount. But the asshole tax is there to make dealing with problem customers more worth it, and potentially to encourage them to find someone else to torment and give money to.
Have to agree, it’s a funny story but charging someone a stupidity rate for nonexistent work isn’t justified by that person being stupid and a pain in your ass. Unless your circumstances force you, you can always just refuse work from customers like this. So many people downvoting this is disappointing.
Oh my god reminded me of a story when I worked computer repair. Busy day, line of people waiting for me. Similar, mother came in and brought her sons computer. Apparently it had “just stopped working” and only showed a black screen. Plugged it into the monitor behind the desk facing out.
I did the ol’ pop the ram out, press the power button a couple of times and pop the ram back in. Booted up like a charm.
The computer came out of hibernate - to the most ball slappinest porn ever, and I’m talking like, super hardcore. Anal, bondage, the whole sha-bang. It was only up for about 3 seconds but everyone in line knew.
Said “Well looks like it’s working now have a good one”, and oh man have I never seen such a combination of utter humiliation and pure rage at her son. Whoever you were kid, I’m sorry - but there’s your lesson. If you’re doing the dirty and the computer stops working, never have your mom take it in.
I witnessed something like this once. I worked for a pawn shop, wiping and reinstalling Windows on computers they were selling, but occasionally working on one of the counters if they were short staffed.
One day a regular customer brought his PS2 in to trade, so it had to be tested first. The manager took it as a training moment for me and and a few others, and connected it to the main TVs around the store so that we could all see how he checked the system.
The customer had left a rather hardcore DVD in the drive and completely forgotten about it, until it started playing on the big screen, and everyone in the store learned about his preferences.
This reminds me of the time in HS when a letter broke off my laptop keyboard and my parents insisted on taking it to the shop for a repair. Turns out they really just wanted the shop to turn over my search history and chat logs. I already knew my parents were nosy so I would always delete it anyway.
One day I came home from school and they said the shop fixed the keyboard but just needed my password to test it and do updates. I said no it’s fine if he can type in anything into the password then obviously the keyboard works, and I already did the updates regularly.
They literally had to beg me for the password and they were like pleasssse just give the shop the password so they can finish their checklist and you can get your computer back, and I was like fine if it’s the only way I’m getting it back. Of course nothing came of it because there was nothing to discover.
Then my parents got the computer back but kept it in the trunk of their car for a week, and I accidentally saw it when we were leaving Old Navy which started a whole “I don’t believe this!” discourse in the mall parking lot.
Moral of the story just talk to your kids instead of spying and lying, because they know and it won’t work!
That exact version will end up making “true” false any time it appears on a line number that is divisible by 10.
During the compilation, “true” would be replaced by that statement and within the statement, “LINE” would be replaced by the line number of the current line. So at runtime, you end up witb the line number modulo 10 (%10). In C, something is true if its value is not 0. So for e.g., lines 4, 17, 116, 39, it ends up being true. For line numbers that can be divided by 10, the result is zero, and thus false.
In reality the compiler would optimise that modulo operation away and pre-calculate the result during compilation.
The original version constantly behaves differently at runtime, this version would always give the same result… Unless you change any line and recompile.
The original version is also super likely to be actually true. This version would be false very often. You could reduce the likelihood by increasing the 10, but you can’t make it too high or it will never be triggered.
One downside compared to the original version is that the value of “true” can be 10 different things (anything between 0 and 9), so you would get a lot more weird behaviour since “1 == true” would not always be true.
If the error is too frequent it will be hunted down very fast, what you want is errors that happen no more than once every month, maybe add another level that ensures this only triggers based on the running time.
That is true, but from a human perspective it can still seem non-deterministic! The behaviour of the program as a whole will be deterministic, if all inputs are always the same, in the same order, and without multithreading. On the other hand, a specific function call that is executed multiple times with the same input may occasionally give a different result.
Most programs also have input that changes between executions. Hence you may get the same input record, but at a different place in the execution. Thus you can get a different result for the same record as well.
__ LINE __ is a preprocessor macro. It will be replaced with the line number it is written on when the code is compiled. Macros aren’t processed when debugging. So the code will be skipped during debug but appear in the compiled program, meaning the program will work fine during debug but occasionally not work after compile.
“__ LINE __ % 10” returns 0 if the line number is divisible by 10 and non-zero if not. 0 is considered false and non-zero is considered true.
#define is also macro. In this case, it will replace all instances of “true” with something that will only sometimes evaluate to true when the program is compiled.
You can’t convince people to do their job with logic when they just don’t want to do their job. After minorities, the thing cops hate most is doing their job.
I assume he doesn’t have access to it. He just knows there’s a camera pointing at the place where his bike was stolen, and that the police have access to the footage.
It might also be a matter of getting a directive from their management not the care, because there’s not enough cops to go around for the ‘important’ stuff.
They don’t want to waste their limited time for simple property theft, which is ironic considering that’s what police are supposed to be doing (stopping theft).
The answer would be then to hire more police, but unfortunately that would mean higher taxes for the citizenry, and that seems to be a hard glass ceiling.
No, the police just don’t want to do any work. In my hometown you can’t get the police to do shit unless you are a black man who “fits the description” or “smells like weee” then they will gladly try to make your death look as much your fault as possible.
The police exists to protect the status quo. Try overthrowing any immoral law or legally but immoral behavior and you’ll see how efficiently they move about.
Come on, don’t disparage our hard-working Boys in blue. Without police who’s going to come to your house to take notes about the crime that you have sufficient evidence to prove, and even have a likely suspect for, and then never follow up?
and god help you if you ever use any of them, obviously you have time to play games you don’t have enough work to do. It’s all for show.
I remember a Meta recruiter reached out to me. We had a couple of talks, and then on one of them I asked “So how’s the work life balance”
Oh it’s great! We have a 24/7 cafeteria here, so if you ever need a snack it’s always available. We have sleeping pods, so you can easily sleep, and even 24/7 laundry services, so it’s all around a very relaxing place.
Uhhh yeah man. I’m not some kid fresh out of college. I own a home, and I’m very aware of my work time vs my personal time. Hard pass all around. Kids, if the company sounds too good to be true, there’s an ulterior motive. Those things sound super great… but they’re of course all meant to keep you working around the clock, meeting deadlines. The companies aren’t “hip” or “cool”, it’s all to attract you, and then work you to the bone. A strict 40 hour work week is better than foosball anyday.
I know I’m preaching to the choir but for the people interviewing for their first software gig - well maybe one of them will read this.
If I were a kid right out of college, I’d honestly consider it. The key is truly knowing what you’re getting into. Companies gobble up those kids out of college because they’re naiive, and they want to prove themselves. MAANG knows that and take advantage of it. As long as you’re aware of that going into it, and plan to use them too, then go for it. Just don’t plan to be a lifer, know that they don’t care about you going in.
Get in with the full idea of being a parasite, doing the barest minimum work possible while getting friendly with higher ups. It’s not like doing a good job there would be better for the customers/end users anyway
Right? I realistically just need 150k/yr to be stable in my area, I could chuck the other 150k/yr into savings and quit after 3 years with 450k in the bank
If I rember right google had an AI driving division that had huge cash incentives based on performance metrics that essentially crashed and burned because they hit targets so fast that main time retired for life in like a year or two
Those things sound super great… but they’re of course all meant to keep you working around the clock, meeting deadlines.
This is not going to be universally true at all big tech-companies. There are places with perfectly reasonable WLB on top of huge salaries and fantastic perks.
These places are usually big enough that you’re going to see extremes on both ends within the same company - some departments with huge deadline pressure cultures, and some with highly relaxed work settings. It can be a bit of a gamble.
They’re looking for a volume icon ninja-pirate-wizard, who takes no prisoners. They work hard and play hard so get ready for your boss to be overly demanding and drunk.
Would you rather spend 40h a week in a dull environment exchanging your time and mental focus for money or spend 50h in a fun and relaxed environment working on something interesting, but also having great nutrition available and with a laundry, so no more household chores for you?
To me #1 seems like you’re stuck exchanging the best of yourself for some paycheck. #2 sounds more like fun, but also gets you your paycheck.
If you’re at a point in your life where all you want from your job, office and colleagues is to see as little as possible of that and get as much money as you could, you need to make some serious changes.
You’re wasting the majority of your life. In order to enjoy the minority part. Nothing to be proud of, even less so is it justifying to be so toxic about people who do enjoy their jobs.
Why would I call it wasting? It’s funding the worthwhile part of my life, and it does a great job at it. I’ve been on several vacations already this year. I get to live where I want to. I have a great family that I love spending time with. To allow that I have firm limits with my job of 40 hours a week, then I go home. I enjoy several hours every night with them, and on weekends we usually go out and do something fun.
You keep trying to convince me I’m not happy, and I assure you I’m very happy with my lifestyle. If other people want to work more, more power to them. I don’t understand it, but I guess do what you enjoy. I don’t enjoy working - I enjoy my personal time. So I found a job that pays me well, respects my time, and every day promptly at 4 I clock off, and I enjoy my evening. Whatever work there is will be ready for me at 8am.
There are always things that get in the way, sometimes I need to work the occasional night, there’s a deadline, I’ve missed a few weekends - but I always take the time off the following week to make up for it. Your younger years are gone in a blip, these times become memories quickly. I have many fond memories of trips, time with loved ones, friends, and even coworkers. You know what I don’t remember? Projects, deadlines, and meetings.
you might prefer a lonely isolated lifestyle, or your social environment being only your wife, kids and your suburban neighbors. But that’s absolutely not the case for most people who gladly socialize at work and prefer to have a great environment there. You all collectively shitting on it and praising work from home only shows that lemmy is a club of extreme introverts.
I think it’s a matter of taste. OP has a great home life, so maybe they’d prefer the 40 hour gig. The 50 hour gig sounds better to me personally, ASSUMING IT’S ACTUALLY INTERESTING and not in a how-do-we-crush-souls-better way.
There’s nothing wrong with doing hard, unpleasant work so you can live outside of it. Does anybody actually enjoy pulling out a leaky sewer stack?
We’ve got free local artisan coffee, organic fruit, mineral water, and beer. We turn the kitchen table into a ping pong table with a net after lunch for however long people want to use it and people do. At 17:00 everyone’s got a beer on their desk and by 18:00 the doors are locked and the lights are out. One Thursday a month the table is used for beer pong after work and we play card games like Exploding Kittens. Idk I like it here.
Not everywhere sucks. I’ve never worked an hour over my full-time requirements (ever), I get unlimited sick leave and no one shames me for missing a week as long as I call in properly. 31 Vacation days and company parties are nice too, plus paid travel time and nice hotel rooms. Also I’ve never made more money in my life and we’re all getting extra bonuses to cover the unexpected inflation.
Oh and I can work from home four days a week if I want to. Gotta come in that one day, but it’s a fifteen minute walk from my house so that’s just fine for me. I come in on Tuesdays because that’s when the company orders lunch for everyone (just one day a week but still cool).
I envy you a bit. On the other hand, I have conditions that are at least okay, so I probably wouldn’t trade places because that’d be a lot of hassle searching for a nice place like yours and then trying to get into it
Just a little detail, is your company in the USA, in the EU, or elsewhere?
At 17:00 everyone’s got a beer on their desk and by 18:00 the doors are locked and the lights are out. One Thursday a month the table is used for beer pong after work and we play card games like Exploding Kittens.
I’d rather go home at 17:00 and do all those things with my real friends, or you know, spend some quality time with my partner.
Plenty of my real friends are people I used to work with back before I was married and stopped getting as much out of this sort of culture… There doesn’t need to be some hard line here - just because you work with people doesn’t mean you can’t be friends
That sounds like a great gig! Great office life, and a ton of PTO (for American standards). Although I will say, I’ve been in small startups. The beer and alcohol is fun - but the startups grow. It’s all fun until someone who doesn’t drink joins, or someone develops a problem. Keep an eye on those two issues, about 3 of the 4 startups I’ve been at one of those has happened.
Wow you’re lucky. I’ve always wanted a job like that.
And for a while I had something similar but unfortunately rotten. We had a ping pong table, afterwork parties, no overtime, lunch, even a swimming pool. And we could use all of it.
However we were seriously underpaid, I got an 80% raise just by saying hello in another company. No remote work without any reason at all (most of my team was in other countries). And awful decision making by upper management.
Made me cynical if something like it is even possible. Glad to hear it is.
Company: Provides amenities and services that would (technically) allow a person to live on premises. Pays you enough to retire early if you didn’t have to bother with rent or a mortgage.
Also company: “We can’t hire you without a permanent residential address.”
I also worked at multiple places that had fully decked out break-rooms: free food, game consoles, VR, and 60-inch TVs. Everyone was afraid to use them for fear of looking like they were screwing around. Except the interns. They used the hell out of that stuff.
My wife’s job has all of those amenities, too! Well, it didn’t at first, but she’s been 100% WFH since covid. She’s got an office with a window, cats in the workplace, lunch is brought to her straight from the kitchen, and she can even take breaks to go on walks with her family during the day.
I know I’m preaching to the choir but for the people interviewing for their first software gig
First software gig? In this market, take whatever to get experience imo.
But that second/third/etc job? Culture, then salary, then everything else. Last interview I went to bragged about giving everyone brand new sneakers yet pay $25k less than average.
Working in computing for years and this is what I’ve heard
2000: IPv4 is about to dry up, we really need to start moving to v6!
2005: OH NO THE SKY IS FALLING IPv4 IS ALMOST GONE! IPv6 IN THE NEXT YEAR OR TWO OR THE INTERNET WILL DIE!
2010: WE’RE SERIOUS THIS TIME IPv6 NEEDS TO BE A THING RIGHT NOW! HELP!
2015: Yeah, okay, NAT has served us well so far, but we can only take it so far, we really need v6 to be the standard in the next 5-10 years or we’re in trouble!
2020: Um… guys? IPv6? Hello? Anyone? crickets
2024: IPv6ers are now the vegans of networking
this may or may not be satire, just laugh if unsure
But new IPv4 allocations have run out. I've seen ISPs that won the lottery in the 90s/2000s (when the various agencies controlling IP allocations just tossed them around like they were nothing) selling large blocks for big money.
Many ISPs offer only CGNAT, require signing up to the higher speed/more expensive packages to get a real IP, or charge extra on top of the standard package for one. I fully expect this trend to continue.
The non-move to IPv6 is laziness, incompetence, or the sheer fact they can monetize the finite resource of IPv4 addresses and pass the costs onto the consumer. I wonder which it is.
Oooh is that why ipv6 adoption is so regional ( Based on www.google.com/intl/en/ipv6/statistics.html ) . Like france ,germany or india having more than 70 % while italy or poland hanging below 20% ? Also judging from this site it seems like ipv6 is actually getting adopted at quite the rapid pace. Even if some regions are faring way worse than the others.
I mean, at least over here, a white IP has been a paid service for as long as I can remember. Absolute majority of people don’t need a static IP, which is why we haven’t had internet “breaking” because of IPv4 running out.
But this is another interesting thing. Dynamic IP addresses made sense, when we were dialling up for internet, and the internet wasn't the utility it is now.
Back then we'd dial up for a few hours in the evening or weekend. Businesses that didn't have a permanent presence would connect in the day to send/receive emails etc. So, you could have 500 IP addresses to around 1500 users and re-use them successfully.
But now, what is the real point in a dynamic IP? Everyone has a router switched on 24/7 sitting on an IP. What is the real difference, in cost in giving a static IP over a dynamic one? Sure, CGNAT saved them IP addresses. But, with always on dynamic just doesn't make sense. Except, that you can charge for a static IP. The traffic added by the few people that want to run services is usually running against the tide of their normal traffic. So, that shouldn't really be an extra cost to them either.
If everyone that ran a website did the extra work (which is miniscule) to also operate on IPv6, and every ISP did the (admittedly more) work to provide IPv6 prefixes and ensure their supplied routers were configured for it, and that they had instructions to configure it on third party routers, IPv4 would become the minority pretty soon. It seems like it's just commercial opportunity that's holding us back now.
From what I understand about the providers, they really don’t like it when you’re generating outbound traffic. Sure it’s advertised to be symmetrical, but the actual hardware they place here can get bogged down if you start hosting a popular site (or seeding too much).
And of course, if they can charge you for a static IP then defaulting to dynamic is imperative, isn’t it? Pretty sure they’d try that with IPv6 too just to keep the income stream.
Regardless, the actual issue with IPv6 around here seems to be that the providers either don’t know how to or don’t care to implement it properly. Sure I can tick on “IPv6” in my router, but that doesn’t mean I have an unbroken chain or routing hardware that supports it connecting me to the great internet.
And of course, if they can charge you for a static IP then defaulting to dynamic is imperative, isn’t it? Pretty sure they’d try that with IPv6 too just to keep the income stream.
I've mentioned it elsewhere. Some ISPs here in the UK have a dynamic IPv6 prefix. Want a static one? Sure, pay up.
I suppose to an extent this kind of thing is akin to low cost airlines. Sure you can "technically" get a flight for €15. But once you've made it even remotely bearable you'll be paying around the cost of a full service airline. But, it does make it very hard to have a website doing a proper price comparison.
I suspect it's the same here. I pay a bit more than most ISPs. But for that, I get decent in country support, fixed IPv6 prefix and static IP (I actually have a legacy IP block, but you don't get those included in the base price any more). Whereas plenty of other providers charge less, but will charge you for anything beyond the most basic of connections. It means my ISP always appears at the expensive end of price comparisons.
Yeah, I just checked, getting a static IPv6 here in Russia from my ISP costs ~.4 eur per month. IPv4 is ~1 eur, so you get a discount if you go for v6! Oh and despite my ISP saying they support v6, connection I got doesn’t have it at all. Probably whatever hardware they got in my house doesn’t know what it is.
As a networker, ipv6 is the future. I’m a fan of it, but I don’t really talk about it anymore because there’s no point.
I threw in the towel after an ISP messed up so badly that I just couldn’t bother anymore.
At a previous job a client I was doing some work for got a new internet connection at a new site, the ISP ran brand new fiber for it. This wasn’t a new building or anything, but the fiber was new. They allocated them a static IPv4 thing as usual, and I asked the tech about V6, and they said we would have to take it up with the planning team, so I did. I was involved in the email chain at the end of the sales process to coordinate the hookup. So I asked. After many emails back and forth, I was informed the connection was allocated.
They allocated one single IPv6 subnet directly off of their device. I couldn’t even.
For those that don’t understand, the firewall we had connected to the device is an ipv6 router. What normally happens, especially in DHCP customer connections, is that the router will use DHCP-PD to allocate a subnet for the router to use on the LAN, and automatically set up a route to say “reach this subnet we allocated for this router, via this router” kind of thing. I’m dramatically simplifying, but that’s the gist. In DHCP-PD, the router will also have an IPv6 address on the ISP-facing link to facilitate the connection. In the case of the earlier story, they gave us an entire subnet to communicate between the ISP and the router, and didn’t give us a subnet for the client systems inside the network.
I did ask about this and I can only describe their reply as “visible confusion”.
I know many who will still be confused by this point are people who have not used IPv6; to explain further: the IP on your local (LAN) systems needs to be a public IP address, because the router no longer does network address translation when sending your data to the internet. So the IP on the router has no bearing on your computer having a connection to the internet over v6. If your local computer does not have a globally unique ipv6 address, you cannot use IPv6. There are ways around this, NAT66 exists but it’s incredibly bad practice in most cases. The firewall I was working with didn’t really support NAT66 (at least, at the time) and I wasn’t really going to set that up.
ISPs are the reason I gave up on IPv6.
I’ll add this other story to reinforce it. I’ll keep it brief. A different ISP for a different company at a different site entirely. The client purchased a static IPv4 address, and I asked about IPv6, as you do. To preface, I know this company and used them for my own connection at the time. They have IPv6 for residential clients via DHCP-PD. I was told, no joke, that because of the static IPv4 assignment, and how they execute that for businesses, that they couldn’t add IPv6 to the connection, at all.
The last thing I want to mention is a video I saw, which is aptly named “CGN, a driver for IPv6 adoption” or something similar. It’s a short lecture about the evils of carrier grade NAT, and how IPv6 actually fixes pretty much all the bs that goes with CGN, with fewer requirements and less overhead.
IPv6 is coming. You will prefer IPv4 until you understand how horrific CGN is.
Yep. It was mostly a joke. Mostly. The bungled adoption of v6 plus all the ways we can still leverage v4 is what’s keeping v6 from being adopted any time soon, but one day we’re going to have to rip off the band-aid and just go for it. Sure, v6 is going to bring its own issues and weirdness, but FUTURE!
I swear it’s going to be a generational change where it takes a slow adoption by the younger network people as the older network people slowly retire. Kind of like how racism and sexism has diminished. It wasn’t like we changed anyone’s mind, just that people held onto it until they died and younger people just said, “The future is now, old man.” and moved past it.
All I want to say about this is that the technology specialists, especially in networking, are usually not this opposed to change. Things change for networking and systems folks all the time. We’re used to it. Most of the time the hard sell is with the management folks who Green light projects. They don’t want to “waste” money on something that “nobody wants”.
Legitimately, one company I asked about IPv6 said to me that customers had not requested it, so they haven’t spent any time on implementing it.
I imagine you sitting there like Scotty, “Give me an ip address, not no colon, not no hexadecimal, and not no bloody double colon. Just 4 numbers between 0 and 255 with a dot in between.”
So, my argument here is… Why the hell are you memorizing IP addresses?
Is your DNS so misconfigured that you’re still punching in IPs by hand?
DNS is the solution. Going to “router.domain.local” or whatever your internal domain is, is easier to remember than… Which subnet am I on again? Is this one 192.168.22.254? Or 192.168.21.1?
Stop punching in numbers like a cave man. Use DNS. You won’t even notice if it’s IPv6 after that
DNS, by its very nature is redundant. So DNS shouldn’t just fall over. If it does, you’re doing something wrong.
If you absolutely need to go to IP addresses, they should be documented.
Unless DNS is outright wrong, there should not be an issue.
For scrolling: are you staring at active log files? Who isn’t using a syslog aggregator? You can easily look up the IP of whatever device that is interesting and filter the log by that IP.
The important bit is that almost every major web service is already running fully dual stacked. Azure, Amazon, Meta, CloudFlare, Google… If it’s a commonly known internet company, it’s probably ready for IPv6.
There’s still plenty that isn’t ready, but most well known things have been ready for years at this point.
The fact that almost the entire internet is controlled by those evil companies is really fucking sad. I remember the old days when people, you know, hosted their own shit and used manual load balancing to keep large sites up and working.
I gave it the old college try about 6 months ago. Found out how to send the req for a subnet to my ISP. Configured my opnsense. When it worked, it worked. But it would randomly stop routing regularly. After a lot of troubleshooting determined it was the isp and have up.
This is remarkably common. A major factor is how to handle renewals. There appears to either be bugs with the procedure or there’s disagreement on how it should be handled. So it will work, for a while, until a renewal needs to happen, then everything goes to shit.
I’ve directly witnessed this in router/firewall logs. That there’s an attempt to renew the DHCP-PD, which does not get a valid reply.
so is there just no standard for renewal? Or are ISPs just refusing to use the standard, for whatever reason?
I can’t imagine we don’t already have a standard for this shit. I’d be baffled if we didn’t. So surely it’s just ISPs being their usual, useless selves.
This is less to do with the ISPs and more to do with the implementation of DHCP-PD renewals on various software/hardware devices. I’m not going to point any fingers, but it seems that some vendors don’t play very nicely with other vendors.
Thanks for the comment. Kinda confirms my approach (mostly out of laziness) of “I’ll do it when the ISP starts pushing it” is the correct one.
I think tech advocacy generally doesn’t work, and in the case of IPv6 I can’t see it working at all unless they can convince the ISPs to devote a lot more resources to it. But since I’m not an ISP… meh, whatever I guess.
At least you can talk to someone at your ISP who can change things, in 10 years I was literally never been able to contact someone who knows anything about networks in any of the 3 big ISPs here… all I get is this:
“oh you have speed issue? Let me “refresh” your connection”
“No sir i have no speed issues, I just need to be able to open IPv6 ports”
“Oh trying to changing the cable port?”
“Sigh… can you transfer me to advanced support plz”
“Sure thing”
Advanced support: “So you having speed issues?”
“No i just need to be able to open IPv6 ports”
“Ah ports, you can do that from your router settings i think”
“No sir, you are the only ISP here where I can’t open ports or receive any ICMP on my ipv6”
“Let me see… i’ll refresh your connections”
And it’s the same of many different issues, you can’t get a hold of anyone who can change anything in any layer about any config. Take it or leave it…
At most, the difference between your experience and mine was that the support I recieved at least understood what IPv6 was, which is likely a function of most of my stories being from business support, rather than residential support.
Almost every time I call I get nowhere. Which is why I’ve given up. Obviously, someone high up in the technical teams is trying to implement IPv6 with very limited success. So I’m just trying to be patient, as they navigate the hellscape of corporate approvals and get things working.
critical difference here was also the consumption of oil. It’s gone down significantly since then as processes have moved to other materials and more efficient methods of manufacturing, due to the price increase of oil. Likewise, our oil consumption has gone down, and our ability to extract it HAS gone up, just not all that much. The big difference is that there’s just more oil that we know about now, than there used to be.
IPV4 addresses are a static pool, that never changes, the only thing that changes is the adoption of them, as certain things move to IPV6 they’re still likely to hold IPV4 in some capacity, as IPV6 isn’t fully rolled out almost anywhere.
critical difference here was also the consumption of oil. It’s gone down significantly since then as processes have moved to other materials and more efficient methods of manufacturing,
IPv4 addresses are a static pool, yes. But we’re continually using them more efficiently, the same as Oil. The difference being that Oil has a limit on the amount of energy contained in its chemical bonds, but you could quite happily host 1,000 or 10,000 websites on a single server.
yes sorry, what i meant to say was “the expected usage of oil over time” When a lot of the early to late 90’s "we’re running out of oil stuff was happening, a lot of predictions would’ve been based on continued increased usage of oil. Rather than it just randomly plateauing. It’s likely that the predicted curve would’ve have been significantly more exponential than presented.
And we’re also talking on a more local scale here, so this would be more centric around a single country, or north america specifically. Or perhaps assuming that third world countries would start industrializing or something. There are any number of factors that could have influenced the potential consumption predictions.
another interesting tidbit, this was also just after the time we thought we were going to build a lot of nuclear power, so arguably that influenced the older variants of the graph as well as the modern consumption of oil for power production, for example.
IPv4 addresses are a static pool, yes. But we’re continually using them more efficiently, the same as Oil.
Yeah but idk about this one. Perhaps at the scale of CDNs and proxy distribution, but generally, i don’t see this being very possible, simply because in order for a site to be supported strictly by IPV6 it must be supported by all connecting clients, and considering that most clients today are uh, not IPV6. If you want your service to work, it’s going to need to be IPV4. I mean sure internal communications, but those aren’t real so you can use any subnet range you want, it makes no difference.
but you could quite happily host 1,000 or 10,000 websites on a single server.
it depends on what you classify as a server, what you define a website as, and how you define the usage of it, but yeah generally, ignoring the fact that this is irrelevant, it’s about that simple.
We’re constantly running out; but every fes years, we figure out a new way to extract more oil/make do with the addresses we currently have.
It’s a supply and demand situation. We run out of things not only when they are physically exhausted, but also when it’s not economically viable to find ways to make more. But when demand increases enough, it will eventually become economically viable again.
IPv4 dried up a long time ago. But it’s different for every country. Countries like US and UK simply took over large blocks of IPv4 addresses and countries like Brazil got fucked. So, if you’re in a country with a large pool, you won’t notice any issues today, but if you’re not so lucky, a lot of internet services are not accessible to you because some dickhead got IP banned and that IP is shared by thousands if not millions of users in your country.
Who needs an IP address anymore? What year is it? You want to connect to your friend’s computer and exchange some information via computer system, seriously? Just use Cloudflare, Google or Azure and route everything through them.
You… do know how computers connect to each other, right? I hope this is sarcasm. But these days unless it’s specifically stated, it’s usually not, just a bunch of dumb kids who can’t understand how the internet works.
And then the dumb kid realizes he’s dumb and says “uh yeah, sarcasm, duh, didn’t you know i was joking, hahahahaha, yep, I knew, of course I did!” when he totally didn’t.
But regardless of the fucking point, no one wants to use these big business trash that is ruining the internet.
Accidental DisplayPort guy checking in. I didn’t even know it was a thing until I bought my graphics card. It seems like I dummied my way into some good tech.
Oh. It’s absolutely superior on the royalties side. Just incredibly frustrating that what should be an open standard that anyone can tinker with is not.
It’s at least partially because the specification was designed to detect and thwart attempts to tee the video and audio data in order to bypass copy protection on DVDs and Blu-Rays, iirc.
It is indeed and the fact that I don’t care about any of that makes it that much more frustrating. I got bored with piracy nearly two decades ago and just want to implement my own open-source virtual display systems in hardware and gateway I shouldn’t need to either cough up thousands of dollars a year or find a copy of a PDF that someone “accidentally” left at a public location in order to do so with an established protocol standard.
The meme says “IRS”, so it’s obviously intended to refer to America.
But outside of that context, they’d fucking deserve it for their shitty dark pattern UX trying to export American tipping culture into the civilised world. If people want to tip, they can do it using cash (so the money actually goes to the person you intended it to!). Or at most, there could be a little “tip” button in the corner somewhere that then takes you to a page like this. It shouldn’t be shoved in our faces like this.
Camden in Sydney? That’s appalling. It’s bad enough to be presented with a screen like in the OP. Needing to actually speak to a person to not have a tip added sounds probably illegal.
Ah right, cheers. Tbh my first guess was that it might be a place in Britain, but I didn’t know so I Googled it and all the results were about Sydney (including one from brittanica.com…).
Well, we did almost end up in Canberra at one point, but as luck would have it the wife’s boss didn’t support the transfer. It’s no Sydney, but anything would have been better than staying stateside. I don’t really miss it, and all my friends say it’s worse now 🙂
In most places even if you tip cash they are supposed to keep that for the tip pool and it is split. Often among the cook staff and other people at the restaurant.
Live in a country where tipping is practically unheard of. Lately pay terminals have started appearing in restaurants that have asking for tip enabled by default, and restaurants often don’t know how to disable it.
Well, at least there are some safeguards. I was handed the terminal so I put in my PIN code, not realising it was actually asking for a tip. I was pretty confused when it said “value too high” or something like that.
The owners know how. They also know that by leaving it there they make extra money on top of sales. They also know that the person getting berated for having it there is the worker who can’t change it.
Owners are often the biggest morons at the location.
Before that, I used the same basic software package at Subway because the owner couldn’t be bothered, and the manager, great lady, was not technically apt.
Am farmer, can confirm. I also have my chequebook with me… Non-farmers, when was the last time you wrote a cheque, aside from rent? I feel like we’re the only ones still using them.
Americunts shit on you when you tell them tipping culture is bad. Like, here in my third world country, where we all earn a misery compared to the minimum wage in burger land, we can say no to tips or just give a few cents or some more…fuck this. Food is already expensive. I am not going to waste extra cash for my food.
I’ve seen plenty of wait staff show up to defend tipping in Reddit threads. They’d rather shame customers than demand fair wages from their employers. Or maybe they were all just bots.
I think those people tend to make a lot of money off tips. There have been times I could get way more than you’d get from any paycheck a restaurant would ever be willing to pay, even with the laws changed for that sector, for “less” work. Depending on the place you work at you could have $300+ a night cash Friday-Sunday and that’s me going back to what I remember from 12 years ago so who knows what they’re able to get now.
I don’t even make $900 a week now in a psudo-managment position in a factory. Not that the $900 is consistent there for those in food service, I just think that’s one reason people would be openly resistant to the idea of changing how tipping works.
And tipping culture has creeped in both magnitude (i.e. 15% used to be standard, but now it’s the low end) and scope (e.g. tips prompts at fucking fast food places)
Plenty. I have had people tell me I am inhumane for criticising tipping culture, and if I point out it is related to the extreme class system and slavery history of America they downvote me to hell and try to justify that it is “land of tha free” or whatever.
They don’t even have freedom from hunger or illness in their messed up country.
I’ve seen a lot of people, including servers and diners, defending tipping culture.
Sadly.
I’m on the side of tipping while in a tipping culture, but only because of the crap way servers are payed and they’re the only ones hurt by protesting through refusing to tip. Otherwise, it’s a practice that needs to die.
While true, businesses have it even harder to migrate to Linux (what else is there when talking enshittification?) than private users. Windows and dotnet won't go anywhere anytime soon.
Huh? With each passing day Windows is being relied on less and less. Microsoft would have to rewrite from scratch at this point (or stop backward compatibility) if their goal is a secure, dependable OS.
On their desktops, sure. But most apps are web based and back end apps are all services - running on Linux. I worked at a fortune 100 financial firm a couple years back. Hundreds of .NET apps, all running in Linux containers on Amazon ECS clusters or Lambdas.
No, as other’s have pointed out it’s not. There are plenty of other areas to use it, even in other game engines. OP is just trying to make it seem funny by making the exaggerated narrative that it’s the only use case for C#. If Boo was still around in Unity this joke would been accurate with that, don’t think that was used anywhere else
Jennifer is a lesbian. Her wife, now husband, who she’s proudly supportive of, is FtM, with 3 previous children that Jennifer adopted. Jennifer has never had penetrative sex with a man.
I thought this had to be hyperbole, so I did the math myself. I’m assuming human history is 200,000 years as google says, and we want to narrow this down to the second the bike disappeared. also that the bike instantly vanished so there’s no partially existing bike.
each operation divides the time left in half, so to get from 200k years (6.311×10^12 seconds) to 1 would take ~42.58 divisions, call it 43. even if we take a minute on average to seek and decide whether the bike is there or not it would still be less than an hour of manual sorting
hell, at 60fps it would only take another 6 divisions to narrow it down to a single frame, still under an hour
edit: to use the entire hour we’d need a couple more universes worth of video time to sort through, 36.5 billion years worth to be exact. or a measly 609 million years if we need to find that single frame at 60fps
History is about 10k years, the 200k years is mostly pre-history. People didn’t write stuff down until they invented agriculture and needed to track trade between owners, workers, etc
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