People are desperate, angry, and feel like they have nothing to lose. Because regardless of who is in office, they never help. And people who feel.like they have nothing to lose, are going to act like they have nothing to lose.
Soooooooo many of our issues could be solved with the bare minimum social systems in every other developed country
Billy Bob ain’t going to try and overthrow the government if he feels the government is looking out for him, even if he’s still a racist piece of shit, he’s now got something to lose if he fucks around.
Just like with other terrorists, the best way to fight them is figure out why people are joining their organization and then fix whatever issue makes people do it. It’s a lot easier to prevent an extremist than to fix one after
People are desperate, angry, and feel like they have nothing to lose. Because regardless of who is in office, they never help.
We have ONE party that loves and needs division and desperation so they block anything that makes lives easier. The GOP needs riled up, angry people to get elected to “fix things” - that is why nothing changes - witness their immigration strategy.
Yeah, but it’s not just racist hillbillies that feel like they have nothing to lose…
That’s a lot of Americans these days. And they make up a lot of the 1/3 that don’t vote.
So the other party could sweep elections for decades if they start doing all they can.
FDR only lost two states in 1936. Because people trusted FDR to actually try and help them.
Even tho his push for universal healthcare for stopped by moderate Dems, he still kept getting elected. Because just trying is enough for American voters
Exactly. Likewise, the greatest way to fight the “war on terror” would’ve been through legitimate support and education, but that would not have enriched the US fossil fuel and MIC oligarchy, or pleased the bloodthirsty neanderthals who refuse to support and educate their own neighbours, so it’s a non-starter — now, here we are, and everything’s worse.
I agree with you. It's a catch 22 it though. When you live in a state run by shit birds, they cut off the fed from helping you in every way they can, meanwhile holding their little town hall events and talking to press saying stuff like: ‘the fed doesn't care about American citizens, they're too busy sending aid to [x country] to fix their problems’ and with the very same breath saying how cool it is that they conned the left into giving their state the most funding this year, but the media doesn't hold them accountable anymore and further push the issue "for fear of losing access" to them. The big secret, and the key to the issue in my opinion, is that the media is bought by billionaires who are no longer accountable to reality when reporting the news, the regulatory bodies in this country have been eroded to shit by capitalists, the now obligatory talking point: Citizens United, and that nobody is going to swoop in to save this awful mess from imploding into fascism any time soon. You all need to take personal safety measures; arm yourselves, and train with your weapons in whatever way you can safely afford. These fuckers are coming for us all, and they'll have the full support of a dictatorship soon enough, if we aren't able to get out the vote. UNITE!
Then why don’t these assholes vote for people who actually propose things to help them?
Regardless of whether they can even be passed with a broken Congressional system, the Republicans they’re supporting don’t even pay lip service to helping anyone anymore. They don’t promise support, they actively destroy the support, they spit on the very idea of support. Routinely
And yet these people go to the polls for them.
We are loooooong past the “economic anxiety” excuse.
It’s not that simple. Racist folks in America don’t care they are poor as long as minorities are even poorer. That’s a huge part of Republican politics, that’s why they vote for Trump. Trump doesn’t promise them they will have better lives. It’s all racist dog whistles promising them they will still be on top, they will be the ‘better’ race. That’s why they oppose all sensible policies, because they will try to fix inequality and inequality is what they want.
And I don’t think there’s a simple fix for this. Many countries have this issue (UK, France) and the more progressive policies you try to push there the stronger the push back is. In the end it usually goes farther right until something terrible happens…
It’s not that simple. Racist folks in America don’t care they are poor as long as minorities are even poorer
True, but they wouldn’t push to keep other races down just so they’re below them so they can feel better about their own problems. Or at least wouldn’t be pushing so far down.
They wouldn’t have as many problems to blame on other races either.
It’s not like anything besides 100% solving racism is a waste of time. And keep in mind, this is just a positive side effect to actually helping everyone…
It’s like turning down a free steak because the potatoes isn’t big enough…
And mainly because currently they don’t really need the free steak, or don’t think they do. Government funded health care? Nah, I can afford insurance. Then an accident happens and they go broke. Then they want the free steak.
This needs to be repeated. It sounds ludicrous that someone could be so petty and cruel, but it’s true. Conservative politics is the ideology of natural hierarchies. It doesn’t matter how bad white folks have it, as long as those damn black folks can’t use the same drinking fountain as them!
It’s a lot easier to prevent an extremist than to fix one after
Yes it is.
But it takes time to get positive results, and far too many people are too short sighted to do anything when the “return on investment” is a generation away.
Every time I’ve seen those type of program started, the following government cuts them and claims it was a waste of money because it hasn’t shown results yet, even though it’s only been a year and you can’t make signifignat change to people’s lives that quickly.
It’s such a viscous ugly circle in the US though. I think really piss poor education in a lot of these rural areas is largely to blame. These thugs are by and large incredibly stupid people. The people that want to help fix the rural education systems are made to look like their enemies though, they are literally voting against their best interests. The GOP thrives off denying quality education and manipulating the feeble minded. Stupidity breeds hate and fear, and guess what, they have propaganda to play on those secondary features as well. You could try to give these people money and education and they would slap it out of your hand, call you a commie fag, and feel they did the right thing. We shouldn’t stop trying, but it’s really hard to help someone that shuns the help being offered.
Billy Bob can’t string together 5 functioning neurons and synthesize that he’s being manipulated by intelligent people who would watch the world burn for that sweet dolla dolla bill. Give him a $100K welfare check and he’d behave exactly as he does now, the marionette that he is.
Are the people who join these groups typically struggling workers? The Jan 6 mob seemed to be mostly relatively well-off small business owners and the self-employed. Who else has time to do all this stupid shit? And all that money to waste on guns and LARPy gear?
Republicans idolize the 1950s. They conveniently forget about the part where the top tax bracket was taxed at 90%.
And now they claim if we have a wealth tax, they’ll just move. Massachusetts passed a wealth tax recently. Astoundingly, all the wealthy people didn’t move. Turns out they’re fine paying a premium to have a house in Martha’s Vineyard and a condo in Boston because, and I know this is a shock to Republicans, they can afford to pay a premium to live somewhere desirable.
Agreed. Having lived through the ad campaigns and voted for this tax myself, I can confirm that I, at least, never heard anyone call it a wealth tax. A millionaire’s tax, sure, but that’s just a catchy shorthand. If you do the google search Mr. Flying Squid suggested, you’ll find a lot of sources calling it a millionaire’s tax, and maybe a couple calling it a wealth tax. The ones calling it a wealth tax are just plain wrong.
There is no legal definition or concept for a "wealth tax". You usually tax income or you tax property.
And while taxing property is the more obvious one, both can be a wealth tax depending on who is paying majorily by its design (for example a progressive income tax where low incomes barely pay anything reaching 90%+ over a certain limit -see 1950- is definitely a wealth tax).
Yeah and if you look at tax rates since then you can see lowering them generally makes things worse and the few times they were raised even a little was followed by better times. Thing is we are so far in a tax deficit that it will take having high rates for awhile to get back to a decent level. EDITED per comment as the first one was supposed to be lowering.
Keep in mind, the main reason why your camp uses this rhetoric is because you want to tie abortion rights to the constitution. That way, it becomes mandatory for all states to respect them.
Enshrining it is fine. But taking a weak stance to link it to an amendment that never had it in mind, well, opens you up for its interpretation to get overturned.
The other side argues that the unborn child has rights and that the 14th amendment does not protect abortion.
You’re trying to tie abortion to ‘bodily autonomy’ because you want abortion to be protected by the constitution. That way, states don’t get to decide for themselves.
Abortion would have better protections with its own amendment, but you know how difficult (impossible?) that will be, so it’s imperative that you find a way to tie it to existing amendments.
Well, not exactly. If people want to live in a state where they don’t have the choice for an abortion, then making it federally mandatory takes that choice away from them.
If you don’t want an abortion you are under no obligation to have one. The only right they lost was the right to kill woman for the Christian blood god
Typical, willful misunderstanding of state’s rights.
Even if you disagree with the rights, you can’t deny that people think they should exist.
Do you think, for example, that Thailand is justified in executing drug users? That’s the right of their state. Should there be a world constitution that stops them from doing that? I personally think, yes. But it doesn’t exist, so drug users in Thailand must suffer execution.
It’s an unfortunate world we live in, but bad faith arguments do not make it better.
Typical, willful misunderstanding of state’s rights.
Nobody actually believes this is about states rights, evidenced by the fact the the states trying to ban abortions are trying to prevent them happening in other states where it is legal.
Most 12 year old rape victims didn’t get to choose the state in which they were born. Most people living in poverty don’t have the luxury of just moving somewhere else. And what about the disabled or women with court orders preventing them from leaving the state for whatever reason? There are many, many situations where that isn’t feasible.
That view of the situation is pretty myopic and privileged.
You’re deliberately misunderstanding. You are conflating choice with people wanting the law to be a specific way. You don’t want an abortion? Don’t have one. That has nothing to do with me. My potential abortion has nothing to do with you. Once you decide to make it illegal for me to have an abortion, that is taking away all choice. The law allowing for either/or is not making a choice on your ability to not have an abortion; that doesn’t take away from you. You still get to decide to not have one.
You’re trying to tie abortion to ‘bodily autonomy’ because you want abortion to be protected by the constitution. That way, states don’t get to decide for themselves.
In what universe are they not tied together? There’s no good-faith argument against this.
I think the mother gets precedent over the child. Even if the pregnancy is viable and there is no elevated risk of harm to the mother, she should still be allowed to have an abortion.
Some people disagree with me though for the reasons I have mentioned.
Bodily autonomy means only you have the absolute right to do with your body what you want. The “unborn child” has no right to claim your body for its own use. Removing it from the body is always done as safely as possible; before 24 weeks this means an abortion, as the fetus is non-viable still. After 24 weeks, it’s called an induced birth and the baby gets to survive.
This without question ties the right to abortion to the right to bodily autonomy. The “rights of the unborn child” are respected by not killing it after 24 weeks.
That’s fair, I totally agree with you. An unborn child is just a collection of cells with no sense of self. I mean, it really calls into question what is a conscious being, imo, which they clearly are not. They’re far, far from developing the facilities to manifest consciousness.
That said, a lot of people cannot understand this. I think it’s unfair to misrepresent their argument and therefor misunderstand them. It’s not conducive to discussion. Even if they’re wrong, I think it’s important to acknowledge what their stance is, for what it is.
This is completely irrelevant. The 9th Amendment says a right does not need to be explicitly mentioned in the Constitution to be protected, nor are other rights lesser to those that are explicit.
SCOTUS has been spitting on the Constitution for a long time.
It’s not weak. Originalism is weak. It basically asserts that the constitution and all amendments must have been written by psychics who could predict every situation that would arise in the future, forever.
Of course things written decades or centuries ago couldn’t predict what’s relevant today or five decades from now, so of course they should be open to interpretation as the needs of society change. It’s the difference between following the spirit or the letter of the law, and it’s why most laws aren’t merely prescriptive, but outline motivations and goals.
It basically asserts that the constitution and all amendments must have been written by psychics who could predict every situation that would arise in the future, forever.
Not really. The constitution is a living document and was meant to grow with the times.
The problem is that it’s next to impossible to add amendments to the constitution now due to how divided the nation is. This means that in order for abortion to receive protection under the constitution, it would need to be tied to an existing amendment that was not drafted with abortion in mind.
That’s why it’s so crucial to make arguments like “abortion is bodily autonomy” rather than “abortion is a guaranteed right under the xth amendment.”
Or, (and I know this is shocking), none of the rights in the Constitution work if privacy and bodily autonomy aren’t protected. Everything just falls apart.
Anyone who says “You just swore at me, that means I’m right! Ha!” Is an idiot.
It is neither difficult nor admirable to annoy people to the point of having them curse you out. Taking that as a sign of success really says a lot about you.
The ability to remove stuff from your body seems pretty damn important, though. Infected wisdom teeth, fatty tissue removal, cysts, appendixes infected or not…there’s very good reasons why someone might want to be able to remove something from their body. Seems un-American to infringe on someone’s rights.
Your side wants it to be a right so states can’t decide for themselves.
As the constitution is written right now, tying abortion to an amendment is a stretch. This is why the ruling that gave constitutional protection of abortion was overturned.
The only good faith argument I’ve seen is that democrats should’ve tried harder to explicitly add it to the constitution. That way they don’t have to contort the interpretation of amendments to suit their agenda.
But, as tribalists go, it’s okay when your tribe does it (14th amendment) but bad when other tribes do it (2nd amendment.) And the worst people of all are the ones who call it out.
Name one other context where anyone uses “well regulated” to mean that. You can’t, because it’s a bad faith argument based on pretending words mean something other than what they plainly do.
Definition 3. Remember, the English you speak isn’t the exact same as English spoken over 2 centuries ago, in this context the obvious and predominant meaning at the time of the writing of the 2nd Amendment is that “well-regulated” didn’t mean “regulation” as you imagine it now, it was more along the lines of well-functioning/trained/maintained/whatever.
But the meaning isn’t even relevant because the “right to bear arms” isn’t bound by it:
A well regulated Militia, being necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the people to keep and bear Arms, shall not be infringed.
From a linguistically unbiased standpoint, it’s clear that the first half, “A well regulated Militia, being necessary to the security of a free State,” is a reasoning for the directive, “the right of the people to keep and bear Arms, shall not be infringed.” The usage of commas has changed over time, which is where a lot of the confusion comes from nowadays, a more modern reconstruction would only use one comma.
The term for it would be “absolute clause” – it serves many purposes, and in this case it gives reasoning for a something, but doesn’t lock that something to the reasoning.
Politics has seeped deep into peoples’ view of the linguistics of the amendment, but it’s really simple, this is basic grammar. It doesn’t say nor imply “The right of a well-regulated Militia to keep and bear arms shall not be infringed”, they specifically wrote it as “the right of the people” for a reason.
Making it an argument of the 2nd Amendment only applying to militias is arguing in bad faith – it’s clear that the amendment was written for everyone to have the right to bear arms, regardless of militias (although motivated by the security of the state, which well-armed militias can supply).
The only argument is whether the 2nd Amendment is suitable for the modern day, whether we should repeal/overwrite it, or at the very least to what extent protecting the “right of the people to bear arms” can be applied – obviously prisoners/felons can’t bear arms, there are a lot of regulations on who can bear arms and which arms you can bear (not even “the militia” can just bear any arms they like). And of course other first world countries are faring much better without a “2nd Amendment”, and with much tighter gun control.
Not my fault you didn’t pay attention in English classes when you were in school :/
Also I clearly stated why it was there – as a good reasoning for the amendment existing and emphasising the amendment’s importance to the security of the state. It’s right next to the most important freedom (to the writers), the freedom of speech, it’s important to explain why they find it so essential.
Listen, you can have whatever stance you want on gun rights or whatever, but you can’t just make up your own reality and twist linguistics to fit your perception. I’m very pro-strict-gun-control, as already stated, I’m extremely left-leaning, if anything interpreting the 2nd Amendment factually and accepting it not only applying to militias is more of a detriment to my political goals, but I’m not going to take that and decide that it’s better to twist basic grammar to my liking. You can’t just treat the 2nd Amendment syntactically differently from any other sentence for no reason. Linguistics isn’t a political tool, it’s a science (unless you’re a prescriptivist).
One of these is to allow women to terminate a life threatening pregnancy or one that they don’t want, perhaps from rape, or because they can’t afford to have a child and it would be living in poverty.
The other one is an effort to stop people machine gunning children in schools, shooting people for using their driveway to turn around or shooting people though thier front door when they knock on it.
If you think those two stances are comparable and both should be cancelled out because of technicalities then you need to get your head examined.
The problem is that it’s next to impossible to add amendments to the constitution now due to how divided the nation is. This means that in order for abortion to receive protection under the constitution, it would need to be tied to an existing amendment that was not drafted with abortion in mind.
Is the nation more or less divided than when slavery was banned?
What part of having a civil war determining the fate of slavery do you not understand?
We’re not discussing a civil war to add abortion protections to the constitution. We’re talking about passing it using measures that would not have worked when trying to outlaw slavery.
You’re conflating two marginally related causes as though they are identical. Try to stay on topic and you’ll be less confused.
Why are you mentioning the likelihood of them being added to the constitution while ignoring that one took a civil war to happen?
You’re saying you’re confused about why slavery was outlawed but abortion wasn’t when the nation was more divided during slavery. It’s because they had a civil war over it! That’s the only reason the constitution was amended to ban slavery, because of who won that war.
It’s possible that even if the nation is less divided than it was during the Civil War, it’s still too divided to amend the constitution to protect abortion.
So you’re saying that literally the only way for one side to make concessions when it comes to amending the constitution over a very divisive issue is to fight a war over it.
Weird, because I don’t remember the war that was fought over giving women the right to vote despite a huge amount of political opposition.
The nation wasn’t as divided during the early 20th century as it is now.
Common sense and decency was still valued, to an extent.
I have a question for you. Is there any way. Any way at all. That you can address my points with arguments of your own instead of replacing what I’m saying with what’s easier to argue against?
This whole discussion has been nothing but, “You mean this right?” “No, I don’t mean that.”
Between that and your analogies, it seems like you’re incapable of staying on topic.
Please present evidence that the nation was less divided over the right of women to vote than they are now over abortion. The only reason I think you could possibly say that is if you were totally ignorant of the subject. Women were literally tortured over it.
Suggesting I am incapable of staying on topic when you were the one who brought up the idea that we’re too divided to codify abortion is silly. I am showing you examples of times when America was far more divided and the Constitution was still amended. Your ignorance of history is behind your argument and I am trying to show you why.
An interesting argument. So law is only credible if people go to war over it and is an expression of millitary superiority. Also the Constitution is the only level of federal law that is binding and the only thing that determines what is both ethical and a human right and any attempt to change that is made right only by an expression of deadly force… Hmm.
There are a lot of non-constitutional federal laws that protect rights however. The FDA for instance enforces the rights of the public to not be subjected to food and drug adulteration, the Americans with Disabilities Act protects the rights of disabled persons guaranting them reasonable accommodation to fully participate in society. Are those laws valid as they are extra constitutional?
As for abortion specifically, the 14th amendment was invoked heavily during the original Supreme court case as the support for the original Roe v. Wade but the document that court decision was based on has not changed, nor has the medical procedure that case was based on. The original court case featured heavily that private citizen rights were nessisary to individually made health decisions based on the established principles outlined in the document. The progression of the court case attempted to follow a series of logic to determine if the constitution was being applied.
It’s repeal was through Dobbs v Jackson and it’s precedent over turned for reasons “Abortion not being deeply rooted in this Nation’s history or tradition”, nor considered being a right when the Due Process Clause was ratified in 1868… This is a note for note description of a fallacy - the appeal to tradition. That for something to be true it must be revered as a cultural norm dating back to usually unspecified periord. It also has the component of the genetic fallacy - rejecting or accepting something based on the origin of it rather than it’s content.
Following that logic you can dismiss basically all of US law that has been codified after the original constitution. Food and drug adulteration was a huge problem during the period of the signing of the Constitution so obviously the US has no tradition to protect the health of it’s citizens based on those grounds. Nothing in the constitution that specifically stops companies from doing that! Disabled people aren’t obviously mentioned and we had a long history of basically telling them that they had no right to participation in anything. Basically the entire naturalization process was codified after the original signing so bye bye citizenship rights slavery is legal.
Your argument is essentially that what is codified into law is what is ethical but also that modifying an expanding the protections of those laws are an expression of “tribalism”… But they shouldn’t be. The original court that saw Roe v. Wade were majority Conservatives. They held themselves to completely different ethical principles than the modern Conservatives on the court. They MADE this and all constitutional laws a matter of tribalism by discarding logic and greater ethics to the side. Your freedoms and protections are all fundamentally compromised by these fallacies based on exploitation of the system. If one can simply reject the rules, letter and spirit of the law in favour of putting forward the imaginary intentions of a bunch of dead people then all of the laws you have are based only on a complete flight of fancy. They are just hoping you are too wound up in your own tribalism to notice.
Ever noticed that any change made post Confederacy isn’t supported by an originalist argument? That’s actually by design.
Ah the arguement by way of laziness. Why bother commenting if you never bothered to understand my argument at all? It astounds me how many people actually think this fortifies their position.
It’s also why you are so easy to manipulate. Your rights are going to be so easily chipped away and you won’t even notice you are the one holding the pickax.
So you having zero patience to deal with anyone who doesn’t immediately agree with you is supposed to be some kind of mic drop? Or is it more that I upset you and you immediately needed to tap out? Either way it sounds more like emotional fragility. If that is the case you could just say so and I would make an effort to be more considerate of your feelings.
Lol your case is just nonsense. You want to pretend at having a defensible position but you’re just using every fallacy in the Conservative playbook to posture it. It’s lizard brain tactics. It only appears like winning if you close your eyes and squint at it from a distance to obscure every word being said.
The law is the law because it’s the law is about as weak and incurious a take as it gets. Keep lying to yourself bud, I wish you nothing but diminishing returns.
Your side wants it to be a right so states can’t decide for themselves.
Meanwhile on the other side States are trying to make it illegal to pass through them on the way to get an abortion, and to ban the abortion pill Federally.
Sounds less like “letting States decide for themselves” and more like “letting these states decide for everyone else.”
Meanwhile on the other side States are trying to make it illegal to pass through them on the way to get an abortion, and to ban the abortion pill Federally. Sounds less like “letting States decide for themselves” and more like “letting these states decide for everyone else.”
Of course, they’re not above that. They absolutely want to push the needle so they can push it further. Overturning Roe v. Wade was just another step along that path.
“letting states decide for themselves” is the narrow end of the wedge. just like how the confederacy wanted to “let states decide for themselves” about slavery, then insisted the federal government override free states, tried to militarily annex territories that wanted to be free states, and put it in their constitution that no member could be a free state. they’ll “let states decide for themselves” as long as they make the right decision, then they’ll decide federally for the states that “decided for themselves” wrong.
conservatives only respect two freedoms: the freedom to do what they want, and the freedom to force you to do what they want.
A factual correction: the Confederacy did not want to let states decide for themselves whether to allow slavery. The main difference between the US and Confederate constitutions was that the Confederate one explicitly denied states the right to ban slavery.
Oh let’s discuss the second amendment. Tell me, who is your commanding officer in your well-regulated militia? What rank do you hold? Where is your uniform? How much compensation are you given for your service? I hope you are not engaged in stolen valor.
Where does the 2nd amendment specify any of that as being necessary?
You can argue it’s a poorly written amendment, but trying to argue it means things that it clearly doesn’t just to support your agenda is playing right into my arguments of tribalism and hypocrisy.
It’s not a poorly-written amendment unless you ignore the context of the Articles of Confederation, which is where the phrase ‘well-regulated militia’ came from and in which it was explicitly defined:
every State shall always keep up a well-regulated and disciplined militia, sufficiently armed and accoutered, and shall provide and constantly have ready for use, in public stores, a due number of filed pieces and tents, and a proper quantity of arms, ammunition and camp equipage. from section VI
That was unambiguously what ‘well-regulated militia’ meant when the Constitution was drafted, and was its intended meaning. That context has been lost and/or deliberately obscured in recent years – specifically since the 2008 Heller decision that reinterpreted the 2A to ignore that context and how grammar works in order to include the rights of individuals.
Most people today are fine with that reinterpretation (or are simply unaware it happened), but my point is a core amendment was reinterpreted recently in much the same way you’ve been arguing against.
Why was it fine for the 2A but bodily autonomy is a bridge too far?
Those words are not there by accident. You claim that you have a right to a murder machine because of the text, the text says your murder machine is for the purpose of a well regulated militia. So please describe your militia to me.
that healthcare is abortion. basic healthcare agreed upon worldwide outside of a tiny sliver of americans in a child genital mutilation cult that has established minority rule.
Sadly even that isn’t true anymore. Someone I used to work with died recently of an unknown upper respiratory infection after being turned away by his local hospital 3 times. He eventually coughed until something ruptured and he died due to internal bleeding.
He had a decent paying job with health insurance and likely contracted his infection at work, yet he was denied admission to the hospital for some reasons that his widow and daughter may only find out with a lengthy court battle they can’t afford.
Welcome to the dystopia, it’s just getting started.
I don’t know but I suppose it could be a possibility. My assumption is that he was probably turned away because of understaffing. The hospital he was trying to go to was almost completely staffed with travel nurses a year or two ago and many of those nurses left as working conditions deteriorated. It’s all just speculation from me though. The whole thing is quite sad but also infuriating.
Yes, the healthcare system needs to be fixed. That is definitely a concern with the healthcare system, but unless there was a law denying them treatment that is a different discussion.
Probably a controversial opinion but companies should not be able to own residential real estate at all, the reason most people cant get a house is because big companies are buying them up with limitless sums of money so they can rent them out infinitely, its not a free market when the big company will pay 20% over your entire life savings just to make sure you don’t own anything.
Controversial would be, “if the government won’t stop corporations from buying up single family homes, we should do it ourselves by any means necessary.” That’s controversial.
Yeah no this isn’t controversial. Private landlords serve no purpose in society. You just pay them their mortgage for the privilege of living in their house. It’s ridiculous.
I agree in the case of single-family homes. Even in cases of 3 or 4 unit buildings. But how do you propose full-on complexes get run if not by a company? Very few individuals have the capital to buy a 50-unit building, and honestly, the US needs more dense urban housing to help reduce our impact on climate.
Easy. Non-profit co-ops, ideally as part of land trusts. They keep prices reasonable, give all community members a say, and the people who are lucky enough to live in them love them.
Not just limitless sums, companies are borrowing at very low interest rates and skyrocketing real estate prices with free money. Consequelty also causing mass inflation. So you’re paying for them owning houses.
As someone who has gone to the hospital for an overdose on caffeine, I really want to try one of these. Because, I clearly haven’t learned my lesson at all.
Would you risk it if a child is involved? I’m not saying your wrong. But it’s worth noting that they are there for the the thousands of children that are being abused. Which still happens and people brush anything under the carpet.
Risk what exactly in this case of more than two dozens of checks having been performed? Her file is probably thicker than a hand and some of ACS workers should know it by heart by this time.
You don’t want to hear it but there are those out there that can get through the system a shocking amount of times. But sure. Keep voting me down for answering the why that the OP asked.
100% bet that GladiusB is the kind of person who uses CPS to harass other people, and thats why they are so hot and upset over people saying the system shouldnt be abused for personal vendetta and grudges.
All the resources being wasted to harass a woman that is properly raising her child and has never had one negative thing found against her in the dozen+ investigations, are resources not going to actual victims, to save actually at risk children.
So YOU are risking childrens lives by encouraging and accepting the ridiculous harassment campaign against this one person.
You’re not justifying it, you’re just implying that someone who has cleared a dozen+ investigations must be a monster who is getting lucky and getting away with it.
I am in no way implying that. I am stating that I understand why they check on a child. Are you sure you are old enough to be on a keyboard? I’m getting strong 12 year old vibes here.
There is no single way to know that a child is safe without checking in on them. There is not a single person I have met in the system that would just be like “Oh. It’s just a prank.” I have personally been involved in it as a child and a parent. CPS does not just look at it and say Iit’s ok. It’s the 100th time". And once again, for the 6th time.
You’re absolutely furious over someone trying to stop CPS being used as a terror tool against them because some anonymous persons grudge.
Like, to a really disturbed degree.
Like, to the degree that you sound like you are the person that has the grudge against the woman in the news story, and are furious that people are against what you’re doing.
All while trying to insinuate that being cleared in dozen+ investigations doesnt mean the woman in the news story is innocent.
If it was one call, I’d agree with you. Better to check it out and find out it was wrong than to not check it and miss abuse. Maybe this can excuse the second and third call as well. But when you get to the 24th time, maybe the agency should be questioning whether this is a person trying to use their agency to harass the person. (The CPS version of Swatting.)
They should refer this matter to the police and have them investigate who is making these calls. Not only were they harassing a family that they’ve checked multiple times, but they are both diverting resources away from actual abuse cases and are causing the abuse that they claim to want to stop.
I am all for getting the swatter. I am in no way justifying anything he is doing.
I am and have been saying I understand why CPS has to take every call seriously. If they have enough information to make it seem credible, they can’t put the child’s life in harms way.
That is all I have been saying since my first response.
The law is a essentially the enforceable moral code of the state that enforces it. Most criminal laws were created to penalise acts that are considered morally reprehensible. I wouldn’t say the law is an afterthought around morality but a reflection of the morality of the state. The laws are largely written by the capitalistic class and are a reflection of what they consider right and wrong.
Yeah but the problem with this sentiment is that it eschews responsibility for the state its self, a responsibility for which a people always ultimately are. A state legislature makes laws. City councils create rules. Dog catchers have policies. At any point you can work to take responsibility for those positions. Its not an abstract theoretical thing. These are real material positions.
Yes. Laws can be changed but in reality but don’t really have that much say nor do they even pay that much attention. Let me ask how much people really vote with the homeless on their mind? How much people voted for Biden because they were genuinely excited for him or because he just was the only way to prevent Trump from coming back? The laws of the state are a reflection of what it deems to be moral and just there’s no way around that.
Yes. So what is the disagreement about then? Laws are essentially the enforceable moral code of the state. I do believe that people are ultimately responsible for their own laws but because of propaganda and misinformation by the capitalistic class they are rarely fully informed of the laws they vote for. The capitalistic class ensures to public are constantly misled so their candidates and lawmakers get picked. This ultimately sees the ruling 1% in control of the law and deciding what the state or country considers right or wrong. How much people do you think Biden really represents?
Right there is where the disagreement is. My argument is that laws are ultimately a moral code of a people, because a people are ultimately responsible for their state. It’s a false dichotomy that misrepresents where states and laws ultimately come from. It ‘others’ the state as some kind of inaccessible agent that our actions don’t contribute to. It removes the moral responsibility of state actions from a people, which is not ok. My argument is that individuals are and need to take responsibility for the state and the codification of its moral because they are us. The state is not a separate entity from its people, when it is a state of the people. This thinking of the state as separate from the people is deeply problematic.
First of all, I was playing off of the parent comment that legality is wholly divorced from morality, a notion that I agree with, rather than commenting on the article.
Second, even though it’s illegal, well, read the article. It seems to me that even the social aid organizations involved were giving a bunch of coy, shitty non-answers to the journalists involved in this story. This is kind of one of those unsettling moments where the institution has lost faith in itself, like when the SCOTUS found the removal of native Americans to be illegal and President Jackson said “Justice Marshall has made his decision, now let him come enforce it” and caused the trail of tears anyway. I doubt we’re going to see any accountability come of this. So, even though it’s illegal on paper, it’s functionally legal; the state is just going to five finger salute the law on this one.
When it comes to actions of government agents, though, following the law is the most basic form of accountability, and unaccountable governments are never good.
You’re a fool to think the entity that makes and enforces law will ever hold itself to its rules. Rules and laws are for controlling peasants, not itself.
Ivanka is likely to be less coy about her father’s business dealings, according to Mary, who believes that the heiress will “tell the truth and throw him under the bus,” since she’s “legitimately wealthy” without her father and doesn’t need to rely on him.
Lemme go out on a limb and predict that this won’t happen.
Yeah doubt that’ll happen. Though this next quote seemed pretty accurate.
“They’re going to have to walk a very thin line between obfuscating in a way that’s not perjury and appeasing their father’s ego so that he doesn’t throw them under the bus when he testifies, which of course he’s going to do no matter what they do,” Mary Trump said … referring to the two sons.
So god damned stupid/malicious. Both him and the majority of Europe it seems said something to the like off: Israel are allowed to defend themselves. Defend themselves on Palestinian land. With weapons sold by us. And now we “encourage” restraint, like Israel has ever done that when it comes to civilians. They are more than happy to bomb the women and children being used as shields by Hamad.
US military advisors also have been directly helping the IDF plan the invasion into Gaza. He’s definitely trying to play dumb, probably because there’s actual backlash to this stuff that’s reaching the mainstream. Like, when you get Wolf Blitzer of all people stunned speechless on live TV at the IDF justification for striking a refugee camp, you know it’s out of hand over there.
He was interviewing an IDF Lt Col about the initial bombing of the refugee camp. He was pushing about if the IDF didn’t care about the civilian casualties and looked rather taken aback after several attempts to push for a straight answer the only one he got was that “This is the tragedy of war.”
Old sack of shit really convinced himself he could play this of without losing voters. Bro I’ve been routinely disappointed by your half measures and absolute failures to do what you were voted there to do, fuck. off.
Well, there has certainly been a change in tone from the US, with new calls for a pause in fighting. And this is likely to affect the shape of the current aid package.
But Israel is ultimately a sovereign country. Biden doesn’t support Israel unconditionally as some have accused, but he also can’t force Israel to do what he wants.
(postscript : I don’t think Biden wanted to see the tit-for-tat atrocities from Israel, I think he has recoiled and is trying to put a lid on it now. But the speech was a major and foreseeable fuckup on the practical and moral levels)
We also discussed how democracies like Israel and the United States are stronger and more secure when we act according to the rule of law.
Terrorists purpo- — purposefully target civilians, kill them. We uphold the laws of war — the law of war. It matters. There’s a difference.
The rest is a lot like this
So, in this moment, we must be crystal clear: We stand with Israel. We stand with Israel. And we will make sure Israel has what it needs to take care of its citizens, defend itself, and respond to this attack.
And let there be no doubt: The United States has Israel’s back.
We’re — we’re with Israel. Let’s make no mistake.
Interpretations can differ, but on balance I can easily understand why Bibi (correctly) interpreted that as a blank check. Yeah maybe we’d tut-tut and furrow our brow, but the guns and bombs are gonna flow regardless.
First of all, Biden hasn’t sent any weapons to Israel since October 7. And he’s not planning to send “guns and bombs”, he is asking Congress for anti-missile systems accompanied by humanitarian aid for Gaza. Which I think is appropriate.
Second, I don’t think Bibi interpreted that as a blank check. I think Bibi is an idiot who doesn’t care what Biden thinks. In a follow-up speech on 10/19, Biden had much more to say:
President Netanyahu and I discussed again, yesterday, the critical need for Israel to operate by the laws of war. That means protecting civilians in combat as best as they can. The people of Gaza urgently need food, water and medicine. …
As I said in Israel, as hard as it is, we cannot give up on peace. We cannot give up on a two-state solution. Israel and Palestinians equally deserve to live in safety, dignity and peace. …
When I was in Israel yesterday, I said that when America experienced the hell of 9/11, we felt enraged as well, and while we sought and got justice, we made mistakes. So I caution the government of Israel not to be blinded by rage.
However, Israel is a sovereign country and unfortunately isn’t taking orders from the US. The US is trying its usual approach of attempting to bribe a foreign government into better behavior, but success is hardly guaranteed.
What are the rules of war against a prison camp? We could perhaps consult the Federal Bureau of Prisons manual, but I did not find the word “war” in it. Unfortunately, I don’t read Hebrew, so I came up blank there too.
For some reason I thought it was a tiny shallow pool, like for toddlers to play in. Why would anyone even have one of those?!
A lap pool, for doing laps, makes so much more sense. I’ve lived in a house with a pool and it’s just a huge pain in the ass. Being able to bust a couple of laps would be great though. I’d love to have this.
One has to wonder about the medical issues he was experiencing in the past couple of years were.
I’m pretty sure addiction doesn’t make one healthier or younger so you wonder what type of damage has incurred over the years of his struggles. Perhaps he had heart issues or something else that will surface in the hours and says ahead.
Still sad to hear he’s passed. Money can make some things easier in life without a doubt but it can’t fix everything it seems.
You have to be pretty fucked up to die of dehydration in a hot tub. I’d imagine dehydration makes you pretty fucking thirsty.
I guess I wouldn’t know because I have never been in a hot tub or dehydrated? I don’t have much in common with Perry beyond not remembering the 90s. I was too young, he was too high.
You’ve gotta be pretty fucked up to drown in a hot tub
If you’ve got low blood pressure, could be naturally that way or medication can cause it, you can pass out fast in a hot tub. I can’t go in them for that reason.
It was possibly a heart attack that caused him to drown, which wouldn’t be much of a shock considering his painkiller abuse, known to cause heart problems. No drugs or alcohol on site, but it’s not like his addictions didn’t leave a lasting impact.
Maybe he is not from the US, like me. Outside the US people don’t immediately think of opioids when someone says painkiller. They are not prescribed nearly as much. Maybe not at all where I am from.
What a stupid response. I don’t know your mom. How long did your mom abuse painkillers? What are the dosages and frequencies she took them at? Did she ever get clean and if so how long had she been abusing them and how long had she been clean? Was she a polysubstance abuser? Did your mom have any cardiac conditions of note? Did she take any medications? Familial history? You see what im getting at with how dumb your response was? I did get my heart checked out and I got my heart rate up to 138 and ran 15 minutes longer than I needed to and the cardiologist/lipidologist told me in his career of over 40 years I’m only the second time he’s ever seen someone’s heart not skip a single beat. I could still go the way of Matthew Perry/your mom. You never know. Pain killer abuse varies a fuck ton. So many other things come into play when we’re talking heart attacks.
Already a law in Maine. They have a yellow flag law to stop this. We can’t go around knocking on every gun owner’s door and asking g if they hear voices.
Nnnooo, it’s still a failure of the cops. The law, as it is, is a good law. The problem here, again, is that the cops didn’t do their jobs.
Edit: Sometimes a law is poorly written so law enforcement can’t do what’s necessary to enforce it or the law doesn’t really address a problem. That’s not what happened here; the cops simply chose not to enforce the law, and that’s entirely on them.
That doesn’t make much sense. That’s not how many laws are enforced. What do you even mean by “initiative”? Weird how they could stop my friend on the street, shove their hands in his pockets to search him for “drugs” (cannabis) and give him a ticket for loitering but when some guy tells someone he wants to shoot up a military base, no problem.
Or they can pull us over repeatedly as teens and say “where are you going tonight? Any drugs in the car? Can I search your car?” Those were failed laws but not due to “initiative”.
The reality is that the laws are the written minimum expectations of our social contract.
If enough of the unwritten social contract falls apart, you’ll be amazed at how quickly it becomes obvious that most laws aren’t really enforced.
I mean cops won’t even show up for most shoplifting cases these days, so what stops most people from shoplifting?
The social contract that we hold dear. As long as I can have my needs met legally, I will do it. As soon as I can’t feed and house myself legally, I won’t choose to “not eat” because of cops.
Because in New York he was reported from a military base and they removed him from the base. They had no knowledge of what he may or may not have had in Maine.
I’m trying, but it’s an emotional subject that people don’t want to look at too closely. They want easy answers and there really aren’t any. :(
The best bet is to assume stuff like “ban guns” or “ban semi-automatic rifles” can’t happen, and start looking at what CAN happen if we want real change.
Hey dude I hope you’re doing good! I’m just popping in to add in here:
It is actually already a federal law that people who were IVC’d in any state have that reported into NICs and have their guns confiscated. It isn’t “red flag laws” specifically which seek to broaden the law we already have (depending on state, with a burden of proof as low as “he said she said” in some cases, always at a secret hearing you aren’t allowed to even know about much less defend yourself, and then they may return them 1yr later when you finally do get your day in court if you can prove the negative.)
So, we don’t have a red flag law nationally, but we do have 18 U.S.C. § 922(d), [which states:] it is unlawful for any person to sell or otherwise dispose of any firearm or ammunition to any person knowing or having reasonable cause to believe that such person “has been adjudicated as a mental defective or has been committed to any mental institution.”
Seems a lot of people (on and off lemmy) aren’t aware of this law (which, in this case, would have prevented this had the beaurocrats done their jobs), just figured I’d let y’all know.
I’m just going to piggyback on your comment here to add this:
The Gun Control Act (GCA), codified at 18 U.S.C. § 922(g), makes it unlawful for certain categories of persons to ship, transport, receive, or possess firearms or ammunition, to include any person: who has been adjudicated as a mental defective or has been committed to any mental institution;
That’s the problem… the word “adjudicated”. Unless it goes through a judge, the guns are NOT confiscated and it does not show up on a background check.
So the Maine shooter was held, it didn’t go through a judge, was not “adjudicated”.
“In 2017, he was the subject of a Baker Act call, used to place persons under involuntary detainment for mental health examination for up to 72 hours.[6]”
“Garcia was then enlisted in the U.S. Army in June 2008, but he never completed basic training: he was terminated after three months due to mental health concerns.[39][40] Because this was an administrative separation, rather than a punitive discharge, Garcia’s termination by the Army would not show up on the National Instant Criminal Background Check System.[41]”
Ah, I see. To me that isn’t necessarily a bad thing though, to require some proof before removal of one’s rights. If anyone can just say “my ex said X” then what is stopping people from abusing that? Right wingers calling it in on trans people who are trying to protect themselves from right wing violence for instance, or an abusive ex having his ex-wife’s guns taken so he can go hurt her, something like that. I personally believe it should require at least some proof that would hold up in court. I’m also not a huge fan of the whole “Take the guns first, due process second” approach that Trump supported with the red flag law secret hearings business, I think that if someone is making verifiable threats, you should be able to charge them with that in a normal, non-secret hearing, leading to the adjucated IVC, removal of rights, flagged in NICs, etc.
I think there is a way that we could all agree on, gun rights supporters and realistic gun control supporters alike (the no-guns crowd aside). Something like actually sending these people through a judge in a timely manner oughta at least be a step in the right direction.
Yeah, it’s not that rights should be taken away without going through a judge, it’s that more things NEED to go through judges to create the appropriate disqualifying paper trail.
I’d argue too that we need to expand what is a disqualifying event. If you look at the Michigan State shooter, he had been arrested on a felony gun charge, allowed to plead down to a misdemeanor, did his time, then when his background check was clear, he bought another gun, and here we are.
Should we allow people to plead down from felony to misdemeanor when the charge involves guns? A felony charge would have blocked him from buying a gun.
Maybe, when it comes to gun charges, a misdemeanor should also be a disqualifier? Right now it’s only felony charges, but if someone has already proven they can’t be trusted around a gun…
My only concern there comes from another opinion I have “A lot of shit that is a felony should be a misdemeanor, and a lot of shit that is a misdemeanor shouldn’t even be a crime.”
I’ll need to look to see his specific charge, but off the top of my head I can think of two “gun charges” that should at least be misdemeanors if crimes at all.
CCW without a permit. IMO this should be a misdemeanor at best. Hell, about half of the states no longer require one, they certianly aren’t necessary even if they’re a good idea. I also posit that if voter ID laws are racist because black people can’t get state IDs easily, CCW permits are the same (and also sometimes subject to sherriff approval and can be abused outright by a racist sherriff easily if you’re in a shit county.) These laws typically do impact marginalized neighborhoods rather than gated communities, as the poor are more likely to work saturdays (when they have the classes), not be able to afford the 100+ dollar fee, etc.
Having guns and illegal drugs. Frankly, I don’t think this should be a crime at all. “I believe gay married couples should be free to defend their marijuana farms with AR15s.” Now, if they’re using the guns to steal for drugs, well now they’re committing real crimes (robbery) and we absolutely lock them up, but simply “yes I smoke weed and yes I will protect myself shall you try to kill me” should not even be a crime.
Brandishing or something with an actual victim I 100% agree though. Like I said idk what his specific gun crime was I have to look it up when I get a sec.
“In a 7–2 opinion, the Supreme Court ruled that due process principles did not create a constitutional right to police protection, despite the existence of a court-issued restraining order.”
We could enact a law that would have people take a yearly gun safety course which includes a psychological assessment to determine their fitness for gun ownership. Failure to comply would start a process for gun confiscation by the state. Failure to provide proof of completion would result in a $10,000 fine and confiscation of guns on the person and on their property.
Yeah here’s me not wanting a gun for myself because I sleep walk. How is it that people with dangerous mental disorders can just get whatever they want?
yep i realized this when a room full of dead 6 year olds wasnt enough for the 2a people to realize real people are dying for their fake security. ive lost hope
Australia cleaned up their act in response to mass tragedy. Our society just isn’t a society.
Australia didn’t have a problem with mass shootings, then they had 1 mass shooting. They banned guns, and continued to not have problems with mass shootings. Doesn’t prove anything. In fact they have more guns now than they did pre-ban
What they found is a decline in both suicide and homicide rates after the NFA. The average firearm suicide rate in Australia in the seven years after the bill declined by 57 percent compared with the seven years prior. The average firearm homicide rate went down by about 42 percent.
Who says this has to be done in a day? Have gun drop off places which keeps lists, destroy the guns (weld the muzzle or drill in a hole both can be done in 2minutes for a single gun) and then sell them to scrapyards. People have time until the end of 2024.
The Australian plan did take a year, October 1996 to September 1997, and all they got was 650,000 guns which was 20%.
Americans first, have no obligation to give up their guns thanks to the 2nd Amendment and second, aren’t as likely to give up their guns.
You aren’t getting 80 million (20%) even in a year, and again, we don’t have the capacity to collect and dispose of them.
80 million / 50 (yeah, I know, it won’t be an even distribution, but let’s work the math roughly) 1.6 million per state / 12 months = 133,333 a month per state.
The Australian plan took 12 months to collect 650,000. So the US would need to meet that in about 5 states in one month.
The most successful gun buyback in US history collected 4,200 guns across 4 buybacks.
I mean, you’re throwing out a lot of numbers claiming it is impossible, but we have logistics and resources that Australia didn’t in 1996. If Amazon can deliver 7.7 billion packages a year, and the US can count 150 million votes in a week during election season, we can figure out how to break down 400 million guns over a month, a year, or a decade. It doesn’t have to happen overnight. The “Australian plan” doesn’t have to work here, but getting guns off the street somehow does.
I guarantee you don’t want a private company like Amazon handling gun confiscation, public policy should not be up to private companies to enforce. Might as well ask people to drop off their guns at the local WalMart and ask untrained staff to deal with them. No good will come from it.
Elections are a different deal because all you’re processing is bits of paper and data, you aren’t running the risk of, you know, explosive ordinance.
Even if we had the logistics, which we don’t, there’s still the 2nd amendment to contend with. We can’t force people to give up their guns, that’s a right the Australians didn’t have.
Repealing the 2nd Amendment can be done, but it starts with 290 votes in the House. You did watch the struggle it took to get the 217 they needed to elect their own leader, right?
I didn’t suggest Amazon run the process. I just meant “logistics infrastructure exists on a scale unimaginable in 1996”. 600 million COVID doses given out in the US might have been a better comparison. Or 7.2 billion packages by USPS in 2022. There are 708k cops in the US. That’s 2 guns recovered per cop per month to have it done in 90 days.
There is literally no argument in the world where “the logistics make it impossible” is a reasonable claim.
Likewise, “we’ll never get 290 votes” is a lazy and cowardly claim. Yes, it’ll be hard. Yes, it’ll be a fight. Yes, we’ll have some minds that will be impossible to change. But your apparent argument in defense of gun rights seems to be “aww, jeez, it seems pretty tricky” which is truly mind boggling to me.
It’s not that it will be hard, it’s that this is the same body that took 22 days to build a simple majority to decide who their own leader is. 290 is out of reach.
That same speaker, BTW, has already said he won’t allow gun issues to come to the floor.
The Republicans will not vote for it, which is the majority. Some Democrats won’t vote for it either. It’s a dead issue.
mate the gun buyback was only the start. we also completely overhauled laws making it incredibly difficult to buy a gun in the first place. a gun amnesty has been in place since and I think is still in place today (you can walk into a copshop, hand over your gun and all is good). Of course it will take time, but claiming it’s impossible is just not remotely correct. mass disposals, collection bins. and it’s not like all 400m will be or need to be collected, there will always be legitimate uses for certain types of guns as there is anywhere in the world, but every suburban Bob doesn’t need an armoury for “defence”.
The only block you have is culture. Fix that, then your constitution can be fixed, then the physical act of reducing guns in circulation commences. if it takes a generation to remove the vast majority of unnecessary weapons it’s time well spent. your kids and/or grand kids might have a chance to go to school without the threat of being blown away, but only if you want to change
It’s not culture, it’s repeated Supreme Court rulings since 2008.
Lots of cited sources below, but the tl;dr is you can’t ban entire classes of weapons, you can’t require militia membership, everyone has the right to defend themselves and requiring guns be locked up or disassembled defeats that right, the 2nd amendment is not limited to the weapons extant at the time of passing, and states can’t place special restrictions on ownership or possession.
Now, could all that change? Sure, this court did strike down Roe vs. Wade after all… it just took 50 years to swing the court the other direction. So maybe by 2073?
“(1) The Second Amendment protects an individual right to possess a firearm unconnected with service in a militia, and to use that arm for traditionally lawful purposes, such as self-defense within the home. Pp. 2–53.”
and further:
“(3) The handgun ban and the trigger-lock requirement (as applied to self-defense) violate the Second Amendment. The District’s total ban on handgun possession in the home amounts to a prohibition on an entire class of “arms” that Americans overwhelmingly choose for the lawful purpose of self-defense. Under any of the standards of scrutiny the Court has applied to enumerated constitutional rights, this prohibition – in the place where the importance of the lawful defense of self, family, and property is most acute – would fail constitutional muster. Similarly, the requirement that any lawful firearm in the home be disassembled or bound by a trigger lock makes it impossible for citizens to use arms for the core lawful purpose of self-defense and is hence unconstitutional.”
Because that was decided against Washington D.C. and not an actual state, there was a 2nd ruling making it clear that this applies to states as well:
““the Second Amendment protects the right to keep and bear arms for the purpose of self-defense” (id. at ___, 130 S. Ct. at 3026); that “individual self-defense is 'the central component’ of the Second Amendment right” (emphasis in original) (id. at ___, 130 S. Ct. at 3036 (quoting Heller, 554 U.S. at 599)); and that “[s]elf-defense is a basic right, recognized by many legal systems from ancient times to the present day” (id. at ___, 130 S. Ct. at 3036).[21]”
2016 had my favorite ruling in all this because it wouldn’t INITIALLY seem to deal with guns. A woman bought a taser to protect herself from an abusive ex. MA ruled the 2nd amendment didn’t apply because tasers didn’t exist when the 2nd amendment was written.
“the Second Amendment extends, prima facie, to all instruments that constitute bearable arms, even those that were not in existence at the time of the founding” and that “the Second Amendment right is fully applicable to the States”.[6] The term “bearable arms” was defined in District of Columbia v. Heller, 554 U.S. 570 (2008) and includes any “”[w]eapo[n] of offence" or “thing that a man wears for his defence, or takes into his hands,” that is “carr[ied] . . . for the purpose of offensive or defensive action.” 554 U. S., at 581, 584 (internal quotation marks omitted)."[10]
The most recent is the New York ruling where you needed special permission from the state to get a concealed carry permit, which was often denied, even if you were a law abiding gun owner.
“The constitutional right to bear arms in public for self-defense is not ‘a second-class right, subject to an entirely different body of rules than the other Bill of Rights guarantees.’ We know of no other constitutional right that an individual may exercise only after demonstrating to government officers some special need.”[28]
Where this ruling is especially different is that it sets the grounds for striking down other, in place, gun laws all over the country:
"When the Second Amendment’s plain text covers an individual’s conduct [here the right to bear arms], the Constitution presumptively protects that conduct. The government must then justify its regulation by demonstrating that it is consistent with the Nation’s historical tradition of firearm regulation. Only then may a court conclude that the individual’s conduct falls outside the Second Amendment’s “‘unqualified command.’”
bruh your constitution isn’t some holy scripture handed down from heaven in some perfect form. why do you think “ammendments” happened in the first place? they are a legal expression of your cultures appetite for what your country stands for, and can be changed.
The amendments are there because a 2/3rds vote of the House and Senate voted for them and 3/4 of the states ratified them. Until a similar vote un-does them, they are the law of the land.
Another vote won’t undo them because we’re too polarized as a nation.
Republicans won’t support an amendment proposed by Democrats purely because Democrats propose it.
They also won’t propose their own because, like you say, gun culture.
OTOH - Republicans ARE (oddly) down for throwing out the ENTIRE constitution and re-doing it. The process is calling for a Constitutional Convention and currently there are 28 of the necessary 34 states down for doing this. www.commoncause.org/…/article-v-convention/#
The problem here is once they get the 34 states on board, and write a new Constitution, they need 38 states to ratify the new Constitution.
As a bonus, because this drive is coming from the right, any new Constitution is going to be filled with poison pills that the Democratic states will never support (banning corporate taxes, outlawing abortion, restricting voting rights, and expanded gun rights).
We haven’t been to the moon since 1972 and don’t even have our own shuttle program anymore. Our bridges and roads are falling apart, we have absolutely no plan for climate change, and this ass-hat is speaker of the House of Representatives:
But here’s the crux of the problem that folks outside the US don’t get:
The right to own a gun is guaranteed in our founding document. It doesn’t matter if you agree it should be or not, it’s there and it’s been upheld by the Supreme Court multiple times.
We could amend the Constitution again… but doing so starts in the House and takes 290 votes.
They took 22 days to get a simple 217 vote majority to decide who their own Speaker would be, there’s no WAY they get 290 votes on removing the 2nd Amendment.
But let’s say some miracle happens and we get 290, now it goes to the Senate where we need 67 votes. Same problem, the Senate is incapacitated by a minority who require 60 votes to do ANYTHING and that hasn’t been attainable.
But lets say some billionaire swoops in and pays off enough people to get 67…
Now it goes to the states for ratification and we need 38 states for it to become an amendment.
Look at 2020 as a guide - Biden won 25 states + Washington D.C., Trump won 25 states.
You would need all 25 Biden states to ratify + 13 Trump states. For every Biden state you lose, you need +1 Trump state.
Take a look at the Trump states and count up 13 willing to give up their gun rights…
I’m actually mostly on your side, I think the US is too far gone. If you took peoples guns off them in the US, I genuinely think there would be a or several small civil wars.
Further a lot of people would just refuse, hide their guns etc.
If the US actually tried to do what Australia did I think you’d actually see a drop in shootings etc but it would take 50-70 years to actually get through the majority of weapons ‘on the street’.
But to say it’s logistically impossible is absolutely and completely wrong. It’s culturally near impossible.
P.s. I’m Australian and our shooting crimes are going up, pistol numbers are going up too and we have the worst self defence laws. I wish I could have a loaded Glock and the right to shoot an intruder in my home honestly.
Logistically, it’s impossible. Even without the 2nd amendment we don’t have the capacity to do it. There’s no way to collect and dispose of them.
Australian here, you know what I hear when this argument gets trotted out?
“I have a yard full of prickles and it really hurts when I step on them but there’s just too many prickles to even think about trying to get rid of them. Even just the ones from the front porch to the letterbox. Oh, how it hurts when I step on one! But it’s just too hard.”
Everything starts with small steps. Start doing the small steps. Otherwise you’re just parroting The Onion’s seminal news story on gun violence, and they were being sadly satirical.
This is why small steps are pointless. We have to change the constitution to take significant steps, but even doing that, gun owners WILL NOT surrender voluntarily.
So now what? We’ve repealed the 2nd amendment, now we take out the 4th amendment on illegal search and seizure and go house to house searching for guns? Knowing that gun owners are armed and won’t give up peacefully?
You want a civil war because that’s how you get a civil war.
“The most rigorous studies of gun buyback programs have found little empirical evidence to suggest that they reduce shootings, homicides, or suicides by any significant degree in either the short- or long-term.
This isn’t surprising, experts say. “Even under the assumption of optimal implementation, only a tiny fraction of guns in a given community are going to be turned into gun buyback programs,” Charbonneau said. “It’s unlikely that research using standard statistical methods will be able to identify the causal impact of buybacks on firearm violence.”
An analysis by The Trace earlier this year found that more than 16 million guns were produced for the U.S. market in 2020 alone, and somewhere between 350 and 465 million guns may be in circulation nationwide. Meanwhile, even the most successful gun buyback events collect only a few hundred guns at a time. For example, over a nearly two-decade period, New York City’s gun buyback initiative collected just 10,000 firearms.”
They need a red flag/extreme risk protection order (ERPO) law in their state, at the very least. If used, such a law could have prevented this. It’s one of the things that Moms Demand Action has been pushing for.
As soon as someone comes in with HI/SI that should trigger a response that removes all weapons from someone’s home, a 72 hr psych hold, and informs all immediate friends/family that they are not to be allowed near guns/knives. Period
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