The problem with sorting by hot, at least on my instance, is that I always seem to wind up looking at a post from years ago mixed in with more recent stuff. That’s not a problem per se, but I find myself almost responding to a conversation that happened a long time ago.
Tell your instance admin to restart the Lemmy service every so often. We have ours restart every six hours since that fixes the hot thing breaking and getting stale.
Larger instances might not be able to restart often as it could leave some interactions in limbo.
You should know you’ll lose the outbound queue of interactions everytime you restart. I was also under the impression that the big this was supposed to be a work around for had been fixed in 0.18.
I’m cis. I’m a cis man with a exclusive sexual interest in cis women. I find the term very helpful to express very clearly who I am and what I want. I can’t imagine being so delicate as to lose my shit over being called cis.
I find the word as displeasing as some people find ‘moist’, but I’m entitled to an opinion. Am I going to wave a sign around and demonstrate over it despite thinking it was promoted for its potential to upset the victim? Of course not: it’s just a stupid name and I’ve been called far worse by better drill sergeants. There’s a lot of room in there between disliking something and “losing my shit over” it, and it will help respecting others if you understand that.
You think it’s reasonable to be offended by the words “moist” and “cis”?
People who are offended by being called “cis” are often the same people who have spent their lives labelling everyone else because of a misguided sense of superiority. Being called “cis” bursts that bubble of, “you can’t label me because I one of us, not one of them.” Those people need to get the fuck over themselves.
When someone uses the words f-ggot or d-ke or tr-nny or the words cis or breeder or the N word or bloodmouth or carnist or corpsemuncher or any one of the other words that fanatics or extremists use I know exactly what they are and I stop giving the first fuck about anything they say.
EdIT: Do you know why this comment is being downvoted? It’s because the members of the fanatical groups that I listed in my last paragraph resent being lumped in with the members of the other fanatical groups I listed. Each one of them believes that they are morally pure and supperior and that the others are not. They can’t see that they are making the exact same intellectual error in believing that they are pure and superior and that everything they say and do is justified. Anti-LBGTQ extremists and pro-LGBTQ absolutists are the same. Different beliefs and targets but the intellectual mistake that they make is exactly the same.
They didn’t even say he found it offending. Just that they found it displeasing.
They then spent the rest of the comment talking about how they keep it to themself and doesn’t attack or act otherwise negatively to people who use them. The way a healthy person handles such things.
Meanwhile you’re the one actually flying off the handle and getting offended by this. I would suggest some introspection as to why you’re so bothered by a random comment on the internet like that.
What part of, “I’m a cis man who has a preference for cis women” sounds fragile to you? I am very clearly comfortable in my own identity and very clear in what I like.
People who are offended by being called "cis" are often the same people who have spent their lives labelling everyone else because of a misguided sense of superiority.
I’m cis. I’m a cis man with a exclusive sexual interest in cis women.
Here. Unless you know for certainty that you can 100 percent correctly identify every person you meet as cis or trans, you wouldn’t have the knowledge to confidently make that statement.
I have very clearly stated that I am exclusively interested in cis women. Are you suggesting that a trans person would ignore my very clearly stated preference and lie to me in order to have sex with me?
I very clearly stated my preference. You’re trying to use pedantic arguments to invalidate my clearly stated preference. Are you suggesting that I shouldn’t be allowed to have a preference or that people who don’t like that preference or don’t think I should have that preference should be allowed to simply ignore my preference?
I think that your “preference” is based on very sloppy thinking rooted in ambient transphobia. I think you are also confusing a desire for precision of thought with being pedantic.
I think you’re trying to imply that preferences are neutral facts. I think you should consider how you’d react to someone saying “I am only attracted to white women” or “I am only attracted to 18 y/o women”. Do you think their preference is a neutral fact or an expression of something?
Oh, also, expression of “preference” is different than having a preference. Ask why you felt the need to say it in this thread.
At minimum keep it to yourself. Ask yourself what the utility of saying it is. Because what I read is “I support trans people but I still find them gross personally because if I don’t say that people will think I’m a f*g”
So you’re telling me that I should stay in the closet because you don’t like my chosen lifestyle?
Do you hear what you’re saying?
Ask yourself what the utility of saying it is.
The meme was about people who use “cis” as an insult and the people who find it insulting. My comment completely disarms the fanatics who use “cis” as a slur by embracing the word the way that it was originally intended to be used AND by using it in a way that those fanatics don’t like.
This is an utterly ridiculous straw man. Literally worthy of ridicule. These are bad arguments and you should be ashamed to have made them.
Yeah, let me just page up all the trans and feminist academics writing on stigma theory as it relates to misogyny and transmisogyny and let them know that they are wrong, that cis men are never afraid of being tainted by an association with women or queer people
Or maybe you’re just wrong and defensive, which is 1000 times worse than just being wrong and learning from being wrong, which is a normal human thing.
When your online ego isn’t on the line I’d suggest reading Sexed Up by Julie Serano.
Well read on transmisogyny? How do you want me to point out to you that you’re incorrect? Like, earnestly, what is the right way to point out to someone that they’re being bigoted when they don’t know they’re being bigoted?
I know more on this than you
on a personal level- plenty of men hit on me and then when I speak in my non-passing voice to let them know I’m a lesbian react with disgust. Men who say they’d never be attracted to a trans woman have had no problem aggressively hitting on me
On an academic level- I’ve read a lot of feminist works on misogyny, and works on how transmisogyny operates.
You haven’t done enough study on the topic to have an opinion that you should personally stand by.
Unless you have investigated a problem, you will be deprived of the right to speak on it. Isn’t that too harsh? Not in the least. When you have not probed into a problem, into the present facts and its past history, and know nothing of its essentials, whatever you say about it will undoubtedly be nonsense. Talking nonsense solves no problems, as everyone knows, so why is it unjust to deprive you of the right to speak?
What do you mean by my preferences? I am annoyed when people spout bullshit that they don’t understand is bullshit and then get defensive when you tell them they’re wrong, stop playing the victim.
Could you possibly be any more egotistical? You are really full of yourself.
I understand completely that I am a cis man and that my sexual preference is for cis women. Why are you trying to force your beliefs down my throat? What defect of personality is it that makes you think that you should decide what I’m allowed to like?
I’m not being defensive. I don’t give the first fuck what you think I should like. I’m just trying to help you to understand how utterly toxic you are.
Yeah, I’m the egotistical one, not the cis guy trying to explain why it isn’t actually transmisogyny to a trans woman who has studied and experienced this specific form of transmisogyny.
You aren’t some static being where people attempting to change your mind about something you haven’t investigated is some violation. If that is what it feels like to you maybe you need to do some self reflection, because what I am describing to you is literally just the process of learning.
Edit: also men like you love to force your preference on me. Do you know how many times I’ve been cornered (because some men like to do that when hitting on someone) and had to be there for a man’s significant emotional event after realizing he was attracted to a trans woman? This is me being proactive so some trans woman doesn’t have to deal with your freak out if you end up hitting on a trans woman.
Are lesbians bad because they don’t want to suck cock
I know plenty of cis and trans lesbians who love to suck cock. Just not men’s cocks.
And I am equally suspicious of lesbians who are like “trans men are an exception” because they generally either treat trans men like shit or realize they’re bi but only interested in dating and fucking other queer folks.
Yes, it is you who is egotistical because you believe that you should be able to dictate to me what I should like.
Not dictating to you what you should like, pointing out that what you’re saying doesn’t actually make sense when it comes to interacting with women in real life and not just looking up porn categories.
Yeah, I’m defective for having experienced your “preferences” in other men resulting in men being really scary to me upon those men being rejected, and wanting to explain to you that men making sweeping claims about attraction to trans women can put trans women in danger when reality doesn’t match up so neatly.
Plus all the connection to stigma culture that reinforces transphobia but that is less acute.
Yeah, I’m defective for having experienced your “preferences” in other men resulting in men being really scary to me upon being rejected, and wanting to explain to you that men making sweeping claims about attraction to trans women can put trans women in danger when reality doesn’t match up so neatly.
You have never experience, “my preferences” because we have never met. You’re lumping me in with the men that you’ve had bad experiences with which is unfair. I am very much a friend to the LGBTQ+ community. I am perfectly comfortable to say, “I’m flattered but I’m not interested” and I have done so more than once. For me, that’s the end of it. No drama. Given the very diverse community I run in (I wrote in another comment that, “my wife is bisexual, my sister is bisexual, my daughter is a lesbian, my son and daughter both have non-binary and trans friends who I regularly spend time with, I have gay friends and lesbian friends, I was a member of the wedding party at a same sex wedding, I am friends with a local transmasc, and I’ve had a pair of transfem friends for more than 50 years.”) I find it very useful to be able to say, “Here is who I am and here is who I’m interested in.” The people around me seem to appreciate that rather than resent it. Why would you want to pursue someone who said that they weren’t interested in you? I don’t try to talk lesbians into be interested in me, that would be the height of arrogance on my part.
Plus all the connection to stigma culture that reinforces transphobia but that is less acute.
I am not transphobic. Labelling anyone who doesn’t agree with your world view as transphobic really devalues anything else you have to say. I like redheads. I like big butts. I like small boobs. That doesn’t mean that I’m brunettephobic or blondephobic or small bottom or big boob phobic.
I’ve seen you around before and know you’re acting in good faith, and I believe you’re an ally, or at least a potential ally, to the trans community.
I’m chiming in here because I replied to OurToothbrush earlier to give her a cis-het male ally’s perspective, and suggest that she might have more success with a less confrontational strategy.
She suggested I might have better luck explaining her objection to you, or at least that she would appreciate me trying to help you understand her point.
Both your comments are coming fast and furious so I’m trying to respond to your latest.
So here goes:
Your basic point was that you’re exclusively interested in cis-women, and that this is a preference you have, everyone is entitled to preferences so what’s the big deal. It doesn’t mean you’re not an ally.
Life is complex. Just as there’s nobody that’s purely “racially white” (race isn’t real, but that’s beside the point, or maybe it is the point…), there’s nobody that’s purely female or male. Obviously most people’s bodies develop either testicles or ovaries not both, but: there is a sizable portion of the population where it’s not so clear cut. Ultimately: Every person has mutations in their DNA that skew their body towards and away from what’s considered masculine/feminine.
While sexual orientation towards masculine/feminine people doesn’t seem to be strongly influenced by culture (ie I don’t think you can raise a kid to be gay), what a person perceives to be masculine/feminine/trans IS strongly a product of their culture and conditioning.
Viewing sexuality and gender through the framework I laid out above and considering her experiences may help you understand why OurToothbrush sees transphobia where you see sexual preference.
OurToothbrush’s experience seems to be that lots of ‘cis-het-men’ say they aren’t attracted to trans-women, but are in fact attracted to trans-women like her. When they discover that she is a trans-woman they have very negative reactions. Since the (former) suitors were attracted to her until they guessed she was assigned male at birth, but before they had learned the status of her genitalia, how can she conclude anything other than transphobia? Do you see how their reaction is basically the same as your statement?
I pointed out to her that transphobia and homophobia are beaten into men/boys and if they have a negative reaction to learning that a women that they’re attracted to was assigned male at birth, it doesn’t mean they aren’t allies, just that they haven’t unlearned that phobic conditioning. It’s a type of internalized latent transphobia that has infected me too. I don’t dwell on it because as a person in a committed monogamous relationship for over half of my life, it is unlikely to matter, and I suspect it would be a monumental undertaking to unlearn. The effort is better spent healing rifts between allies.
Can you understand why when someone says “I’m exclusively interested in cis-women” a person with OurToothbrush’s experiences might hear “trans-women are gross”.
Tldr; I think I see where you’re both coming from. We cis-het-men are notoriously fragile, especially when our allyship is questioned. I think it will be more effective for people trying to point out people’s latent transphobia to take an educational/ collaborative tone at first, and it’s something I’m going to try to do a better job of helping people understand.
Honestly, thank you two for having this spat so that I could map it out in my head better, I’m not sure I’ve done the best job typing it out though. You’re both welcome to tell me to fuck off.
Thanks for taking the time to write. I wrote in a different thread here that I do not find male bodies attractive and that I had never met a transfem whose body I found attractive. I am a big fan of a full, curvy female body. I am absolutely not interested in penises and I have no interest in masculine faces or bodies. Saying that I am exclisively interested in cis women is a good starting point. I’m not interested in the heroin chic supermodel look with no hips and chiseled faces. Scarlett Johansson and Anna Kendrick are both absolutely gorgeous. I like Scarlett Johansson’s body but I don’t like Anna Kendricks’. I find Jamie Clayton very pretty but I’m not sexually attracted to her body. I don’t hate trans women and I don’t fear trans women. My limited experience (friends with two transfems for over 50 years and one transmasc for over 10 years) and interactions with several trans coworkers and adjacent people has reinforced that I have no sexual attraction to any of the trans women I have encountered. I wouldn’t react violently to a proposition from a trans woman any more than I would from a gay man. I would, and have several times said, “I’m flattered but I’m not interested.” then I go on as though nothing had happened. I don’t discount the idea that a trans woman with a feminine face, a curvy feminine body with wide hips, natural breasts, good mental health, and a great personality could catch my eye and end up in a relationship but I have never seen that combination in a transfem.
Labelling someone who is so obviously an ally a transphobe does not help the cause of understanding.
Yes saying that you’re exclusively attracted to cis women is an easy short hand.
I think OurToothbrush is frustrated with the erasure of transwomen that you fail to identify as trans.
I think when you said:
I had never met a transfem whose body I found attractive.
You don’t actually know if you’ve ever found a trans-woman attractive because you don’t know the birth details of every women you’ve ever found attractive. Some of them could be trans.
It’s not something I was particularly cognizant of either before seeing OurToothbrush’s reaction.
I think I would have trouble getting it up for a blow job from a smoking hot women after I learned she had a penis. I’m willing to concede that that is technically transphobic. I don’t think it changes the fact that I am an ally of the trans rights movement.
Just say you’re a cis-het male ally and I think everyone will know what you mean. It’s too bad this has been sick an ugly experience, it’s still a hell of a lot easier than gender dysphoria.
Sorry for butting in, and I fully understand if I’m completely out of line here, but can you expand on this statement?
I think I would have trouble getting it up for a blow job from a smoking hot women after I learned she had a penis. I’m willing to concede that that is technically transphobic.
Is it phobic to not be attracted to every aspect of a person? Is it racists if fiery red hair is a turn off? Is it hateful to dislike piercings? Is it so bad to not be down bad for blue eyes?
I can see how less obvious trait could lead to a frustrating situation and an appartent change in opinion, like being turned off by a dorky laugh, or a tattoo, or violent behaviour, but is it somehow hateful to not be attracted to everything about someone?
I feel like telling people that something about themselves is inherently bad isn’t any better. Maybe someone doesn’t like the colour red because they just really hate Canadians, and perhaps they would be fine with red otherwise, but are they being hateful by buying a blue blanket? What about people who just like blue? It would be great if no one hated a colour because they hate the people represeted by a flag, but forcing everybody to buy red blankets doesn’t help anything, you know?
I think the idea I’m circling here is that attractions aren’t fair, and trying to make them fair is worse. Conflating that with transphobia seems ironic. Does that make sense?
Sorry that it has taken me a long time to respond, I’ve been at the cabin, away from my phone.
Yeah the problem is that because of the history of discrimination we don’t have words for relatively harmless discriminatory tendencies. So if I were to say
I have racist tendencies
it sounds like I’m admitting to being a “capital R” racist, when what I mean is,
I was taught incorrect stereotypes by media as a child, and sometimes despite my best efforts to be egalitarian, these biases cause me to make bad judgements. I try to notice when this happens, to make sure I treat people fairly.
Yeah I’m not saying anyone is a jerk for having sexual interest only with feminine people with vaginas and boobs, I’m just saying that it’s kinda trans-erasure (and therefore technically transphobic) to say
I’m exclusively attracted to cis-women
Because a person doesn’t know the assigned birth sex of every woman they’ve ever been attracted to.
Ah, so then you’re using transphobic to mean any discrimination against a trans person, no matter how reasonable? Fair enough. I had taken it to mean discrimination primarily on the basis of being trans, rather than a basis of incompatability or circumstance despite intent; but even if the intent is good, if it causes harm it should be called out eh?
Also, good point about being attracted to some traits of a person instead of the whole. It would be very tiring and extremely odd to never be attracted to anyone unless you knew very intimate details of their life.
I think we need another word. Transphobic suggests fear or hate. I neither fear not rate trans people as I’ve made clear multiple times. If I’m not interested in having sex with men am I androphobic? I’m just not interested in trans people sexually. I’m transdisinterested, not transphobic.
I’ve been chewing on this. I have a question. It’s a bit of a thought experiment.
If you’re a man (biological male) and I’m not at all interested in having sex with you and you decide to transition to a woman at what point along that transition am I a transphobe if I still don’t want to have sex with you?
On the continuum from a raging, murderous transphobe to the perfect ally where is the point where you can label someone a transphobe?
I’ve already told you that I have had a pair of transfem friends for 50 years, a transmasc friend for 10 years, my kids have non-binary and trans friends who I treat with the same dignity and respect that I treat everyone else in my life is the simple fact that I’m interested in cis women enough to get me labelled a transphobe? What if I’m that raging, murderous transphobe but I have sex with trans women? Is being a transphobe like a scorecard, you can have a perfect score but a single wrong answer and you’re a transphobe?
I’m not being an ass or trolling. I genuinely want to understand your perspective on these questions to inform further discussion.
I asked a longtime lesbian friend whose partner is a retired human rights lawyer who specialized in LGBTQ+ rights law about this conversation and the partner mentioned absolutism (which I mentioned in another part of this discussion.) I just wonder if that’s what’s going on here.
I’m off to a maker fair with my family today so I probably won’t get back to this until late this evening. I hope you have a good day.
Sorry that it has taken me a long time to respond, I’ve been at the cabin, away from my phone.
Yeah the problem is that because of the history of discrimination we don’t have words for relatively harmless discriminatory tendencies. So if I were to say
I have racist tendencies
it sounds like I’m admitting to being a “capital R” racist, when what I mean is,
I was taught incorrect stereotypes by media as a child, and sometimes despite my best efforts to be egalitarian, these biases cause me to make bad judgements. I try to notice when this happens, to make sure I treat people fairly.
Yeah I’m not saying anyone is a jerk for having sexual interest only with feminine people with vaginas and boobs, I’m just saying that it’s kinda trans-erasure (and therefore technically transphobic) to say
I’m exclusively attracted to cis-women
Because a person doesn’t know the assigned birth sex of every woman they’ve ever been attracted to.
OurToothbrush was offended because she is a transwoman and attracts men that think they’re exclusively attracted to cis-women. She’s on the front line of transphobia, and searching for a partner puts her at a too real risk of being murdered by a transphobe.
Yeah it sounds like absolution is a relevant term. People like to think that there are only biological males and biological females and that’s that. It’s not that simple. People like to think that there are racists and non-racists and that’s that. It’s not that simple. People like to think that there are transphobes and non-transphobes and that’s that. It’s not that simple. To me, being an ally is is about supporting a community to defeat unfair discrimination. Imo supporting individuals with friendship isn’t exactly the same but it’s better than nothing.
We all have lives. I sometimes remember that I was discussing something with someone weeks later.
In the end my trans friends, LGBTQ friends, my lesbian daughter, and my son and daughter’s LGBTQ, non-binary, and trans friends and everyone who knows me knows that I’m not a transphobe. They know that I’m an ally. They know that they can count on me for support and that I will actively protect them.
Being labelled a transphobe by someone who doesn’t know me and obviously has rather extreme views is less than meaningless to me. I engaged in the coversation to try to help her to understand my position and that labelling anyone who wasn’t interested in having sex with her, no matter how much of an ally they really were, was counterproductive. I did my best. I’m going to keep doing my best to be an ally no matter how much people who demand thought perfection label me. That’s just who I am.
It’s also important to remember that “perfect” is the enemy of “good”. There will never be a perfect ally, because allies don’t have the same lived experience. But (I think) that allyship is still a good thing.
Are you nitpicking an ally for using “exclusive” instead of “principal”?
MapleEngineer doesn’t actually know for sure that he has never been attracted to a trans woman. So it’s important to correct him when he says he has an exclusive sexual interest in cis-women.
Is that your point? That failing to acknowledge the nuance that sexuality exists on a spectrum must be addressed confrontationally because it’s erasure?
Transphobia and homophobia are too often literally (yes, I mean literally) beaten into men. We have to work to unlearn it. If an ally says he wouldn’t be able to keep it up if he learned the woman he was courting was assigned male at birth, believe him, but don’t discount him as an ally. Imo your efforts are better spent combating active transphobia than policing your allies. If their terminology hurts you, suggest better ways to articulate their points but do it collaboratively instead of confrontationally.
Having read about your experiences (elsewhere in the thread, you hadn’t posted them when I started my prior comment) I understand your reaction better.
If someone says they’re not interested in dating Republicans, it doesn’t mean they are any better than the average person at picking one out from a crowd.
Attraction can change as you learn more about a person. There’s plenty of people on tinder who looked hot in their pictures but their bio then went on to turn me off.
I don’t see such a statement in this comment chain. Closest thing is “exclusive sexual interest”, which isn’t as broad as “experiencing attraction” and also doesn’t imply a magical way of filtering out anyone he believes is in that group but isn’t.
So in this metaphor trans people are AI, cartoons, and wax figures, and cis people are human?
Or, on a less confrontational tact, do you only experience attraction once you’ve confirmed that the person is cis? How does that work, do you ask for medical records before having an initial impression of people?
It kinda feels like people who don’t believe trans women and cis women are interchangeable should be the ones pushing the word, those who say ‘trans women are women’ surely don’t want the slogan to be made meaningless by having cis women as the established term.
Hi! I know this might just be the wrong context at this point as you are already getting flak, but I was curious and wanted to ask why you have exclusive sexual interest in cis women?
For example I would imagine some heterosexual cis men would have a hard time dating a trans woman who haven’t had bottom surgery or who are early in their transition (in which case sometimes the sexual preference is phrased as a genital preference rather than about exclusively dating cis people).
Some women who for various reasons pass well as cis are not distinguishable from cis women, and in that case I assume based on your statement you still would have a hard time dating that person if you found out they were trans.
For example, based on your statement I assume you wouldn’t date or be attracted to Nava Mau.
I understand if you don’t want to answer, it’s not like this is the best context and it is a vulnerable topic - just wanted to extend an olive branch in case you wanted to talk and think about it with less judgement.
Hi. I’m happy to talk to someone who wants to have a reasonable conversation.
Just some context. My wife is bisexual, my sister is bisexual, my daughter is a lesbian, my son and daughter both have non-binary and trans friends who I regularly spend time with, I have gay friends and lesbian friends, I was a member of the wedding party at a same sex wedding, I am friends with a local transmasc, and I’ve had a pair of transfem friends for more than 50 years. I am very much an ally to the LGBTQ+ community.
I have always been straight and have always been interested in women. My experience with my two long time transfem friends colors my preference. Both have very serious mental health issues. One is post-surgical, the other will never be able to get surgery. I do not find Nava Manu attractive but that is strictly a funcion of what I see as vary sharp facial features. She reminds me of Theodora Elphaba. Jaime Clayton, on the other hand, I find very attractive. I’m not completely closed to the idea of a relationship with a trans woman but in my fairly broad experience with trans women I have never encountered anyone who I would be at all interested in having a relationship with. Thus, my preference is for cis women.
Interesting. Well, first - thanks for being an ally!!
It does seem like trans folks have a pretty rough road in most societies, and predictably that leads to poor mental health outcomes. The statistics about how well a trans person does post-transition has a lot to do with whether they are accepted by their family and friends. (Mental health issues are also common before transition while closeted, or not-yet aware of being trans, which might have biological as well as social / psychological reasons behind it.)
It also makes sense you might not personally know trans women you are attracted to as there are far fewer trans folks compared to cis folks; though, it sounds like you were even able to list a trans woman you do find attractive.
Digging into that more, if there were someone who had the right personality and looked like Jaime Clayton, would being trans be a deal-breaker for pursuing a relationship with that person? I guess I wonder if it’s really being trans that is the problem for you, or if this is just a short-hand for a bunch of other traits that in practice just make you less likely to be attracted.
I ask because at this point it sounds like you would be pretty open to dating trans women who you find attractive (personality and looks wise), but that it is more practical reality that you just aren’t attracted to most trans women (probably for a variety of reasons).
The question for me has always been, are my friends mentally ill because of how they were treated as a result of being trans or is being trans a manifestation of their mental illness.
The friend I am closest to grew up in a fundamentalist Christian family and she was horribly sexually abused as a child. I wonder if she didn’t reject her maleness as a result of that sexual abuse.
For me, personality is far more important than looks. I have often been attracted to women who were not classically attractive.
I can imagine myself being attracted to a trans woman with the right combaintion of looks, mental health, and personality. I haven’t encountered anyone who fit the bill but it might happen. Another issue is that I don’t like plastic at all. Fake boobs, cosmetic surgery, lip injectoions and fillers turn me off. I find Janie Clayton very pretty but I’m not keen on her body. I don’t find narrow hips attractive and her boobs just aren’t for me. The same is true for cis women. I don’t find narrow hips or fake boobs attrative on a cis woman.
There has been plenty of research into the etiology of gender dysphoria, but the current science considers gender identity as fixed and biological, which makes sense of why conversion therapies have been so unsuccessful (otherwise the conservative medical establishment would be more likely to recommend conversion therapy to solve the “problem” of trans people, as talk therapy is much less intervention, much cheaper, and much more socially acceptable than medical transition).
It’s behind a paywall, but that can be circumvented if you know how.
More interesting than whether mental illness is more common in trans people because of how they are treated by society (which seems almost obvious, though worth confirming empirically) is whether mental illness might be more common for trans people because of the biology, such as from having the “wrong” sex hormones in their body.
Gay men who were forced to take estrogen in the UK experienced symptoms like depression and suicidal ideation, and lots of the same things trans people report (there is speculation whether Alan Turing being forced to take estrogen may have contributed to his suicide).
There is also the famous case of David Reimer whose penis was accidentally amputated during circumcision as a baby. Under the direction of the psychologist John Money, who believed gender was entirely determined by environment / social programming, was raised as a girl. Reimer consistently struggled being raised as a girl, eventually decided he was a man, and struggled immensely with mental health struggles before his suicide.
Suicide seems to be a common thread among those suffering from gender dysphoria, with over 40% of trans people reporting having previously attempted suicide and over 80% having considered attempting suicide (source), and it’s not surprising cis people when forced to take cross-sex hormones also seem more likely to commit suicide (though we don’t have as much evidence about this in particular, so take that as speculation on my part).
All this to say, religious trauma and sexual abuse certainly can and do complicate someone trying to figure out whether they are suffering symptoms of gender dysphoria or not, but the current evidence points to gender dysphoria not being caused by environmental factors (like sexual abuse) and likewise not being reversible with any kind of known treatment other than transitioning.
Furthermore, there have been autopsies of trans and cis brains that have found parts of the hypothalamus in trans women match cis women’s, even if not taking hormones. Here is a relatively accessible overview by neuro-endocrinologist Robert Sapolsky about those autopsy studies which were high quality and confirmed with follow up studies several times: www.youtube.com/watch?v=8QScpDGqwsQ
Being trans cannot be adequately theorized in merely biological terms, so please don’t mistake me for implying there are no social aspects to being trans, but I do think there is sufficient evidence that gender identity and dysphoria have biological components that aren’t influenced by environment.
Regarding trans women and plastic surgery: many trans women transition before puberty and thus look and sound pretty much like cis women, i.e. they develop as cis women would. Obviously even in those cases some trans women opt for surgeries, and while neo-vaginas have some differences, they are more like natal vaginas than most people realize (both in look and function).
In that sense, it doesn’t sound like being trans is what you don’t like in a woman, but rather certain body features that might be more common in trans women who have transitioned as adults (breast augmentation, facial feminization surgeries, narrow hips, etc. are more common in trans women who went through male puberty). But there is a huge variety of trans women, even those who transition as adults don’t necessarily get breast augmentation or facial feminization surgery, though narrow hips are obviously more common still.
Perhaps this seems like nitpicking or like I am making an irrelevant or theoretical distinction, after all if most trans women you know look a certain way, is it that wrong to generalize this way. The problems of stereotyping aside, part of the problem is that trans people in general are under a lot of pressure to conform to cis-sexual norms, and those who can go “stealth” typically do. That means, a bit like sexual minorities, it can be an invisible identity, but where a subset of adult trans folks especially early transition are more likely to stand out as trans. What we think of as a paradigmatic “trans woman” is someone who doesn’t conform that much to our cis-normative notions of a “woman”, and that is because of that unintentional sampling bias.
I acknowledge this is a lot, so let me stop here and see what you think so far.
This is very interesting. I don’t doubt that gender identity is biological. I agree with the current thinking that gender dysphoria is not mental illness. It is just apparent to me in my very small sample size of three (two transfem for more than 50 years and one transmasc for 10 years) that mental illness and gender dysphoria are, at least in my sample, adjacent to each other in 100% of trans people I know. I am also of the mind that mental illness is a biological issue so having biological gender dysphoria and biological mental illness adjacent to each other raises questions.
I have been thinking as I’ve been puttering around this evening and you just hit the nail on the head. It is the secondary sexual characteristics of cis women that I find attractive. I like a feminine face, natural breasts, and wide hips. I have a copy of The Big Butt Book 3D that a friend gave me in my nightstand. I don’t find men’s bodies attractive. When I look at a fit man I think, that’s a great body but I don’t feel any attration to him. I just appreciate that it is a good body. I have never encountered a transfem whose body I found attractive. In all cases I found their faces and bodies masculine which I don’t find attractive. To be honest, I don’t find supermodels attractive, either. They’re too skinny, with no behinds and often very chiseled, masculine faces. I think Scarlett Johansson is gorgeous and I find her body very attractive. I think Anna Kendrick if stunning but I don’t find her body attractive. She’s too light in the pants for my tastes. I don’t find most social media personalities at all attractive because I don’t like heavy makeup and fakeness. I like no makeup, hair pulled up into a ponytail, and … I dunno, plain?
Saying that I have an exclusive sexual preference for cis women is a very good starting point. I’m not interested in penises at all and every single person that I’ve ever been attracted to sexually has been a cis woman with the secondary sexual characterists of a cis woman. I don’t hate or fear trans women, I’m just never been attracted to any that I’ve met.
I am a little biased because I’ve been using Debian professionally for many years now but we don’t deserve Debian. It is fantastically stable and reliable and makes an excellent platform for running your services off of. If you are at all interested in offering some time and energy to the open source community, consider adopting a Debian package!
but seriously, modern FOSS distros (yes, debian is modern, damnit!) are amazingly good. you have an exceptionally high probablility of switching and staying switched.
Side note: anyone got recommendations for business software? I’ve started browsing the FOSS community here for ideas but I’m not sure what QuickBooks alternatives exist
A quick Google shows Quickbooks to be cloud-based accounting software. For FOSS accounting, GnuCash exists so you could try that (it can also run on Windows and macOS). However, it’s unlikely to have feature parity so if you like the added convenience that Quickbooks offers, see if you can use Quickbooks in a browser. Being cloud-based, they would probably build a browser version before building a Linux desktop app. If they don’t and you need to run a Windows desktop app on Linux, you can probably do this using Bottles (which uses Wine and Proton under the hood, the tech that enables the Steam Deck).
I mean yeah, but specifically I’d like something built for Linux that’s good for just basic spreadsheet stuff. I’m an electrician so I mostly just need to track jobs and accounts.
Most of (what we call) Linux OSes are formally GNU/Linux. GnuCash is as close as it gets to “made for Linux”. If you don’t want an accounting-specific application, but just generic spreadsheets, check out LibreOffice.
I highly recommend GnuCash for accounting though: a fellow board member cleaned up an org’s accounting by putting it all in GnuCash, where it was a bunch of error-prone Excel sheets before. That really made it easier to keep track and to do it right.
The best accounting software will be the one your accountant uses.
When clients are on the same platform that I use internally everything just matches up and it’s beautiful and elegant and amazing.
When clients are using something else it just doesn’t fit our workflows and it’s just more of a fuck around, which of course the client gets charged for.
That’s how I feel about arch, it’s not “stable” but the few issues I’ve had they typically have it fixed with an update within hours.
I do have to clarify when I switched to arch from windows my entire computer was brand new and practically no other distro booted or if it installed it dumped me to a black screen.
After running my server on archlinux with the stable kernel for 7 years I did install Debian on my new server. Zfs just required an older lts kernel than I could get on arch without a ton of hassle. I didn’t need it on my Mac mini with an external hard drive plugged in. From my experience it’s not very different to maintain compared to arch but it’s nice having built in automation instead of writing my own.
Man it’s weird using a system of what I can guess is a bunch of bash scripts on Debian to set things up compared to just using the tools built into and written for systemd.
“stable” in this case means that it doesn’t change often. Debian stable is called that because no major version changes are performed during the entire cycle of a release.
It doesn’t mean “stable” as in “never crashes”, although Debian is good at that too.
Arch is definitely not “stable” using that definition!
Yeah, I know the definition. I knew someone would quote it verbatim, someone always does. I quoted it because it’s not the word I would use. I like scheduled or versioned releases better but someone always disagrees with me. As far as I’ve seen it’s a major/minor version release cycle anyway.
Well yes, humpback whales reach sexual maturity by around 10 years of age (some much before then it seems). A marine biologist is still practically in it’s larval form at that point.
(Yes, yes, I know that wasn’t what you meant, but I couldn’t help myself)
It’s like Wyle E Coyote finally gets an ACME rocket that’s fast enough to catch the road runner, only to go zooming by the roadrunner on an upward trajectory headed for the moon.
So, like, for the bulk of history, the people demonizing it are religious assholes.
They demonized sex out of wedlock, demonized wanking off; and any other kind of sexual release, while simultaneously deciding who you can marry (and therefore have kids with,).
It’s one of their core methods of social control, ensuring wealth is only passed on to children of wealthy and “faithful” families.
They also practiced polygamy, so that rich and influential men would have multiple wives and poor men would have none. Imagine the rage when you were a Shepherd tending someone else’s flocks, knowing that you will never have a wife or family.
It makes sense to have occasional wars with neighboring tribes so that excess males can be removed from the system.
Bro, go to as many concerts and gigs as you can. Take a single mate, its crazy watching how many random interactions take place.
Dont be scared to move around and chat to people. No one cares if you are trying to find a new viewing spot and its a great convo starter. I wish I went to more when I was younger.
… So you’re at a concert, wandering around the crowd (with earplugs) just conspicuously sliding up to different spots and striking up conversations with attractive people while they’re enjoying the performance? I would emphasize you want something more like a festival where there are multiple events and people have down time in-between to socialize. A normal concert would be like wearing sunglasses to a theater and moving around to get “the best viewing spot” while talking to everyone which is creepy as hell and not a good setting to strike up an actual conversation.
Nah, I didnt explain myself well. You arent going just to chat to attractive people. I just see plenty of organic interactions whenever I go to a concert. You def have to enjoy the music and have a good time. Any social situation can be creepy or non creepy, the individual needs social awareness to understand the difference. I dont talk to people while the music is playing but inbetween songs or sets you can simply comment that was awesome. I agree with you about festivals, downtime is good to chat and chill
I was just worried someone might take it to heart without realizing the nuance lol. You or I may do well, but someone asking such a broad question like finding a partner probably doesn’t have that much social awareness (it’s been answered so many times and really all boils down to the individuals or specific situations like the scenarios we presented). I was just imagining a guy walking around in cargo shorts with socks and sandals awkwardly screaming “hi” at everyone with a pair of orange earplugs sticking out.
I am not reading your comment, I am simply traveling through it with my eyeballs. Also your comment doesn’t have gold fringe and therefore lacks jurisdiction.
Yo that’s funny. Maybe twice in my 20s I had a bout where I was like “damn my pits stank”
I basically unscientifically concluded that I had soaked my armpit hair in smelly armpit sweat, and every time e the armpit hair got sweaty it was releasing a stale stench. Like the hairs themselves were the problem, I figured.
So I trimmed my armpit hair.
Problem solved, both times.
Then in my 30s, a bandmate was like “yo my armpits stank” and I was like “homie it sounds odd but just trim your pits.” Worked for him too.
So, my unscientific alternative, faster solution is to just shave your pits.
If I have a particular stinky few days, I will soap the heck out of my pits in the shower, then let it sit there while I do the rest of my body. That works for me (:
In other words, you make sure you clean your body well.
Edit: but to add to your point, what I do is wash my armpits, then smell them. Is there still a teeny tiny smell left? Rinse and repeat. As many times as needed. Three, four even five times. Until they smell undoubtedly clean.
I recently read an actual scientific study that found a direct correlation between smell and the length of armpit hair. So your unscientific hypothesis is actually backed by science. I’m too lazy to look up the source though.
Pretty sure I read about a study where they found people that smell bad are genetically close to you, like relatives and people you shouldn’t procreate with.
Eh… best lit review I could find only found that smell predicted preferences among non-birthcontrol-using fertile women. So… Smell nice around them maybe? Lit review
My GF would definitely disagree with you there. On my worst days, she stuffs her face into my pits and is practically intoxicated by it. Turns her on.
Sidenote: my pet cat (female) also goes nuts for it. She’ll root her nose into my pits and get all lovey. If she finds a soiled shirt out of the basket, she goes crazy, and her brother had better steer clear when she’s “high on pits.”
I find myself stinky at rare times, but when I let my wife smell me she says it’s not bad at all. I guess it’s somewhat of a similar sitch. Minus the arousal, sadly for me…
I do smell exactly like my dad. It’s crazy to me. My wife doesn’t know that by her nose, she just knows because I’ve told her. But it’s kind of freaky to me personally.
You actually do to get rid of this unless its mild and goes away with alcohol/antiseptic soap, it colonizes the follicle. I’ve shaved my armpits for like 20 years and never once had an ingrown hair as does like most women in the US
That’s because you’ve shave that hair for 20 years.
Hair that isn’t normally shaved poses a greater risk for ingrown hairs.
To reiterate, in grown hair in your armpit is awful. It will get infected unless you wear tank tops all the time, and an infection near all the nerve endings in your arm put causes for a seriously painful time. It can all be avoided by just trimming without going down to the skin.
If you do go down to the skin on an area you’ve never shaved before, you’d be wise to do so using conditioner on your armpits instead of shaving cream. You’d also be wise to apply aftershave afterwards.
But you’re right. Just as most men don’t get in grown hairs in their face from shaving after the first 3 or 4 shaves, you are fine, given that hair in your armpit is basically expecting to be shaved.
It also illustrates a funny bit of the logic of multicellular non-clonal creatures: the germ line is the species. The other 99.9…% of you is just a fancy delivery mechanism, so it makes sense to add something seemingly super impractical to the anatomy if it slightly helps the sex cells.
I’m sorry I don’t have any answer, but I just wanted to say I’m sorry you have to go through this to make your life easier. Also I fucking hate unrestrained capitalism.
Capitalism thrives off mobility aids. Anything decent, even a decent backpack, cost an arm and a leg just because it’s made for the cripples. I hate it here lol.
I understand. I use a cane due to severe inflammatory arthritis and a long list of other crap including a deteriorating spine that’s likely to land me in a chair myself in a few years. Trying to build my own ramp into my house a little at a time on good days because it’s several thousand dollars to have one built and eventually I won’t be able to do it at all. Solidarity in hating it here. I’m in Texas in the US which, well it’s run by regressive masochistic asshats.
And here I am in the Netherlands, taking trips to the Midwest sometimes and crying everytime because it’s so accessible and the ADA and what not. All from a tourist perspective, which is just… I can get into a restaurant and use the sidewalks.
I am blessed to have a ramp. And now I’m realizing I say blessed when we’re just human beings living our regular human being lives trying to get out of our house. I hope the regression will be a slow one for you and remember: a wheelchair isn’t something to be ashamed about. Ambulatory wheelchair users exist so if you feel like you can profit off of one, so you may take a longer hike in the mountains or whatever, don’t feel ashamed.
It’s funny you mention that. I barely make it 30 minutes at my art receptions of I manage to submit work in a slow. I’ve been thinking about it and remembering how much of a fight I put up before getting a cane and how much I wished I hadn’t waited so long. Probably time to talk to my doc. Thank you friend and I hope you get that chair hacked and at your command.
It’s a New York thing to refer to the rural Northern and Western parts of New York State that are not New York City. No one (or at least very very few) outside of New York State uses it to refer to any other place.
In my experience people in the Northeast US pretty much never refer to New York City as just ‘New York’. New York will mean the state, they will say ‘the city’ or ‘NYC’ to differentiate from the state. Or they will say upstate to mean the rest of the state outside of NYC metro area.
You’re being downvoted because your question makes no sense. Both NYC and New York State are mentioned, so what are you even asking for clarification on?
I’ve insisted people call me “esteemed Academy Award nominated character actress Margot Robbie” for months and only like 2 people here ever did that. Breaks my heart.💔
NGL, The first time I saw your username I really truly believed, and My heart was pounding and I was astounded and I was about to post something telling everyone that
she’s really here! She’s one of us!
I went down quite a rabbit hole reading everything in your profile before I realized
you’re extremely knowledgeable about computers and you spend a lot of time on Lemmy, couldn’t possibly be a world-traveling, in-high-demand, constantly busy Hollywood actress.
But I’ve also imagined after every interview we’ve seen her do, she immediately picks up her smartphone and goes straight to Lemmy because this is where she spends all her free time.
I can tell I’m getting old because I don’t feel like I’m missing out on anything by not having a clue what this post is about. I’m actually kind of proud of the fact that this all reads like a foreign language to me.
Hannah Montana was a Disney show where a girl was a popstar under a different name and wig so she could be a normal person when she wasn’t performing. VTubers, like Ironmouse that op referenced, are streamers that essentially play characters rather than stream as themselves in order to preserve their anonymity. They have cameras that track their movement, but rather than just stream the feed of the camera, they map that movement onto an avatar, usually a 3d anime girl.
We also have hand youtubers! Or animators abimate their avatars.
A few like legit musicians also hide their face while performing to make it hard to be recognized, but don’t go full Hannah Montana and their real names are known.
I’ve never understood people that feel the need to brag about not knowing about things. If you dont care about it why waste the time to be smug about it. Who is the performative ignorance for?
You’re in a community dedicated to sharing random thoughts. I shared mine. The logic isn’t hard to follow despite how much you seem to want to be the gatekeeper of acceptable speech.
With how many celebs are getting harassed, more and more are probably going to hide their identities. Hannah Montana was just an early 2000s show about a pop star who put on a wig and fake name to perform and no one knew who she was.
Here are like even some more main stream hidden identities. They seem to leak eventually, but it gets them a lot less attention on the streets.
I don’t think celebrities and actual humans are quite the same. Celebrities have been putting on personas since the very first celebrities began. A celebrity is literally a public image, that’s what it is. This stretches to politicians as well. Hannah Montana was not an original idea, it was a commentary on the lives a lot of celebrities live. Tosh.0? A shy introvert.
The only thing you mentioned that was new is the invention of digital avatars. Everything else is business as usual. Who cares?
As for the people harassing people? Well they should stop. Online harassment isn’t cool, regardless of celebrity status.
I didn’t mention anything other than people that view others as humans would care that other humans are being harassed.
Being doxxed and getting death threats? Oh yeah that’s not cool but who cares?
Also, a more minor point relative to your stance that celebs aren’t human, but how on earth did you manage to equate a public persona with completely obfuscating ones identity or even creating a totally new identity?
Ok we’re talking about different parts of the original post.
Also I literally don’t care about this anymore. Enjoy hitting downvote and crying about YouTubers getting caught up in their own choices in pursuit of fame.
Your only reply to the whole of the original post was who cares. The doxxing death threats and sexual harassment, who cares. You wanted to say that you were talking about a different part but you gave no context or indication for that when you just said who cares. How is that not indifference to human suffering? It really doesn’t seem like much of an assumption.
For whatever reason prion disease has a chance to spontaneously occur when mammals cannibalize. Especially if they are obligate herbivores. Prion disease was originally discovered in cows transmitting it to humans due to some particularly sick fuck running a slaughter factory thinking it would be a good idea to put cow meat scraps back in their feed soylent green style.
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