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kbin.life

dandroid , to asklemmy in Has anyone else noticed a sudden lack of reading comprehension skills?

I disagree. It’s a very good game, but I think Donkey Kong is the best game ever.

HobbitFoot ,

But does that make us morally superior?

Coehl ,
@Coehl@programming.dev avatar

Ew, Cheese Squeeze makes my eyeballs itch

smooth_tea ,

You say that, but in her defense she was a prostitute.

Dark_Arc ,
@Dark_Arc@social.packetloss.gg avatar

Hey don’t bring George Bush into this!

WhyIDie ,

but then I would be all out of fish

Kolanaki , to asklemmy in What's a scam that's so normalized that we don't even realize it's a scam anymore?
@Kolanaki@yiffit.net avatar

Wedding rings/diamonds in general.

The tradition isn’t as old as people think and was literally started by a jewelry company to sell more jewelry. Specifically diamonds, which are not as rare as commonly believed and if not for the false scarcity and misinformation, would be dirt cheap.

CoderKat ,

It’s crazy that even when people are told about this, they usually still defend it. I don’t get why the heck any normal person would like the idea of spending a few months salary on a ring. It’s such a terrible way to start a new marriage, especially with wages being what they are these days.

mycatiskai ,

I bought my now ex an engagement ring for $1800 and 9 years later it was worth 65 from a pawn shop. I just kept it and I’ll melt it down some day.

candyman337 ,

We can literally make perfect diamonds in a lab, there is literally no reason we are still mining them

Nollij ,

It gets worse than that.

Back before lab-made perfect diamonds were a thing, the DeBeers cartel marketed that they had the highest quality diamonds out there, with the fewest imperfections.

Now they market that the imperfections are what gives it character, and you should avoid the actual perfect diamonds and instead get their (blood) diamonds.

candyman337 ,

Yep!

hglman ,

Industrial applications, but you dont need good ones for that.

pascal ,

Diamonds were fairly rare when we used to mine them in Asia and America. And it’s a nice shiny stone which is also very durable.

Then, we found out Africa is actually full of diamonds and DeBeers said “we can’t have that!” and started buying all the African diamonds to keep them away to artificially inflate the price and scarcity.

Then we found out we can make them in labs better than the mined ones and DeBeers sai “that’s not a natural diamond, you don’t want that!” and so on.

The whole marketing about “A diamond is forever!” is to make you think you’ll never want to sell your diamon ring, so you don’t find out your precious gift paid $2,000 is actually wortth $50.

An EA spokeperson would say “it’s all about the experience”.

Kolanaki ,
@Kolanaki@yiffit.net avatar

“Don’t you want to give your significant other a feeling of pride and accomplishment?” - DeBeers.

pascal ,

😂

QuazarOmega ,

That’s grim, never knew about this x.x
Got anything where can I read more on the history?

mobyduck648 ,
@mobyduck648@beehaw.org avatar

An older tradition is to use the birthstone of the person you’re proposing too which is really endearing in my opinion.

wrath-sedan , to asklemmy in What does kbin mean? Why is kbin.social called that?
@wrath-sedan@kbin.social avatar

Here is the answer on the Polish instance directly from @ernest, kbin's creator. For reference, he was being accused of being a gun lover based on the name of the Polish instance "karab.in" and "magazines," as well as his Monty Python profile pic with a gun in it.

https://karab.in/m/fediverse/p/217281/The-reason-for-the-strange-naming-and-uncomfortable-images-on#post-comment-311421

Here are the relevant sections from Ernest on the origins of both kbin and magazine:

Hey, I'm the admin of kbin.social. The name "kbin" comes from the Linux "/sbin" directory - I've mentioned it multiple times before. The name of the Polish instance - karab.in - does indeed reference a rifle, but it's just a play on words, and it was actually chosen through a survey among other domains. It's simply easy to remember and sounds nice in Polish. There's no place for nazi bullshit on my instances.

On the other hand, the name "magazyn" refers to the virtual edition of a late 90s gaming newspaper :D

bonobi ,

Thanks for providing the references. This should be at the top.

wrath-sedan ,
@wrath-sedan@kbin.social avatar

No problem, hopefully it will make its way up there haha.

FarraigePlaisteach ,

We still don’t know what the K stands for though.

perdido ,

The K stands for Kool, same as in KDE.

cyberpunk007 ,

🤣🤣

bingbong ,

Kool kool kool

Comment105 OP ,

So /sbin from Linux + k from karabin from the Polish word for rifle

But the creator doesn’t want it the instance to be seen as rifle-focused or otherwise militant and violent, so it just carries the “rifle-wielding polish linux user”-name without wanting to focus on militant Polish nerds.

mookulator , to asklemmy in What thing are you exponentially more experienced in than the average person?

Statistical modeling.

And yes, I am miffed about the use of the word “exponential” in this post’s title.

flan ,
@flan@hexbear.net avatar

the base of my exponential function is 1

slaughtermouse ,

Same here; what’re the odds?

bermuda ,

About 50/50. Either you are or you aren’t.

bstix ,

But what are the exponential odds?

bdonvr ,

50^2 / 50^2

bstix ,

I’d approach it logically.

If 50/50 = you are / you aren’t

Then

(50/50)^2 = you are are / you are aren’t / you aren’t are / you aren’t aren’t

Applying the locig gates AND : 25%. OR : 75%. XOR : 50% NAND : 75% NOR: 25% XNOR : 50%

The results average at 50/50.

Vineyard8927 ,

Likewise, so higher than we thought lol.

CheshireSnake , to nostupidquestions in People who back into parking spots: Why?
@CheshireSnake@lemdit.com avatar

It’s easier to park backwards compared to forward, specially if the space is narrow.

MagneticFusion ,

deleted_by_author

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  • uwrislife ,

    Oh my god, exactly this. The US is the only place I know with lots big enough to pull into. Everywhere else, this is a terrible idea.

    thebestaquaman ,

    Exactly, especially if you have a long car.

    gxgx55 , to fediverse in On the future of Lemmy vs reddit

    My problem with Lemmy is the lack of activity in niche communities. You’re right that there needs to be a critical mass and arguably Lemmy has it, but only for the most mainstream, generic type of content. It doesn’t have the mass to sustain any sort of niche, outside of maybe tech related topics because of the way the userbase is slanted.

    I find myself going back there often because of that, but I hope that the userbase for generic content enough to sustain and grow, from where more active niche communities can spring up.

    pyromaniac_donkey ,

    I need to consooooom

    Give it a break lad.

    Black_Gulaman ,
    @Black_Gulaman@lemmy.dbzer0.com avatar

    Oh, I see you have zero posts, ever. Well why don’t you go and contribute to that niche community you are nagging about. Maybe that’s what it needs to grow.

    Jackcooper ,

    Ad hominem

    Wait let me do it right so you know I know it’s Latin

    ad hominem

    rigatti ,
    @rigatti@lemmy.world avatar

    Wait, I can’t read your comment because I keep seeing ads.

    Subverb ,

    Ads for hominy? Weird.

    Sightline ,

    I’m sure they’ll get right to it after reading your smartass comment.

    AsimovsRobot ,

    I’m trying to, reached 300 subscribers, but three of them posted once, several commented once and that’s it.

    Black_Gulaman ,
    @Black_Gulaman@lemmy.dbzer0.com avatar

    What community is it, maybe I’ll try to plug it whenever it’s relevant to my comments.

    AsimovsRobot ,

    It’s rare that it could come up in conversation outside the topic of photography, but here it is: !streetphotography

    Black_Gulaman ,
    @Black_Gulaman@lemmy.dbzer0.com avatar

    Ah, nice, I’ll be a member and will be an OC poster as well though I rarely bring my sony mirrorless. It’s it okay to upload mobile photos?

    AsimovsRobot ,

    I am of the opinion that cameras don’t really matter, beyond a certain technological level. Does it take pictures? Then it’s a camera, capable enough to use. There was a quote in Michael Freeman’s book on visual photographic literacy that I found quite interesting. He wrote that only ameteur photographers obsess over camera technology and settings.

    So you’re more than welcome to post on there!

    Black_Gulaman ,
    @Black_Gulaman@lemmy.dbzer0.com avatar

    Thank you so much.

    theragu40 ,

    Lemmy needs both content generators and content consumers. Not everyone needs to do both if that isn’t what motivates them to come to the site.

    I don’t really love comparing to reddit because what reddit became isn’t what I hope for lemmy, but to make the point… What percentage of people do you think made content on reddit? I’d guess it was a fraction of a single percent.

    kungfuratte ,

    I think things could get a lot more interesting if other software that is more like classic bulletin boards and forums would implement ActivityPub. I mean, such online forums are still able to thrive in their respective niches. If such forums would become compatible with Lemmy, Kbin or Friendica, it could bring a whole new dynamic to this part of the Fediverse. At the same time, it would help these niche forums get more attention (even though I’m not sure if all or even most of them are interested in that).

    whois ,

    When I first looked into Lemmy, which was probably well over a year ago at this point, I saw that they had an alternative front end called LemmyBB which resembles the older style phpBB boards of the late 90s and early 00s. It looks like the demo instance is offline now, and it wasn’t federating to begin with, but it certainly looks like an interesting use of the tech.

    https://raw.githubusercontent.com/LemmyNet/lemmyBB/main/screenshots/lemmybb_2.png

    Tudou ,

    Someone the other day referred to posting in niche communities as shouting into the void currently, which I thought was apt.

    YoBuckStopsHere ,
    @YoBuckStopsHere@lemmy.world avatar

    I run one of that niche communities and right now things are quiet, but I’ll keep at it and grow it over the next few years.

    Polar , to nostupidquestions in what are .webp files and why has my online experience been plagued by them?

    You would like it if you had slow internet, or you hosted a website.

    My website turned 5MB images into 100KB images using webp. My website now loads instantly, saves you bandwidth, and me costs!

    dustojnikhummer ,

    Wait really? Are they that much more efficient?

    9point6 ,

    Yep! Not least of all, GIF & JPEG are over 30 year old formats and WebP is about a decade old. So there’s at least 20 years of advancement there

    dustojnikhummer ,

    Huh, TIL!

    optimal ,
    @optimal@lemmy.blahaj.zone avatar

    JPEG-XL has been out for three years, and is better and more efficient than any other image format on the market. Google just has been insisting on keeping them off the web because they want to push WebP instead.

    LexiconBexicon ,
    @LexiconBexicon@lemmynsfw.com avatar

    It’ll be interesting to see which wins out, .jxl or .webp

    Place your bets folks!

    Noobg ,

    I’d bet on WEBP simply because it was first out of the gate. Even though JXL is likely a better overall solution, it might arrive too late to dethrone WEBP. I’m already seeing WEBP in lots of places.

    WhyJiffie ,

    I think webp has already “won”, because google refuses to have jxl support in chrome, the web browser most of the people use.

    Apart from that, if I’ll have a website I’ll aim to support jxl and the old formats, but webp not even by mistake.
    Why? I think this is yet another thing with which google wants to be everywhere for this or that reason and I’m fed up with that.

    bouh ,

    That means absolutely nothing. We went to the moon with hardware that had ram in kilobytes. Today you need a supercomputer from the 70s to run the add of a Web page.

    Progress is not linear. C is still used everywhere while some other languages didn’t live a tenth of its age. New is not always better.

    nbafantest ,

    The reasons for this is that computing power is cheap but developers are expensive.

    9point6 ,

    Yeah for sure, new is not always better.

    Though for compressed media file formats, that pretty much has been the correlation for a while (though obviously there’s many different conflicting qualities that can make a file format “good” for various purposes)

    Take video for example: MPEG2 came along and MPEG quickly became uncommon within a couple of years. MPEG4 displaced MPEG2 due to being more efficient. DivX/AVC replaced that for the same reasons and HVEC/VP9 replaced that. We’ve got AV1 coming now that looks to have beaten h.266/VVC to the punch, but it’s still a fairly linear progression of improvement.

    Given all that it’s kind of mad we’ve not seen the same level of iteration on image file formats, but that’s almost entirely down to browser wars and having to pick lowest common denominators. JPEG2000 might have taken off if it wasn’t for the fact only Apple ever implemented it in a browser—it was definitely a technically better format.

    bouh ,

    It’s due to the maths behind. Special algebra is used for video compression, and a discovery has been made something like 15 years ago that allows a better video compression. It fueled technical progresses of the last years.

    For images, we basically hit the wall quite some time ago. The new technologies are more about engineering improvement than math improvement.

    Then there is the technical environment. It doesn’t matter if your technology is a bit better than the old one because the cost to change the whole technical environment is insane. That’s why ipv4 is still there for example. Changing everything for a new technology to be used is a long, costly and painful progress. But this is something only developpers can’t cope with, because the development culture is painfully ignorant of industry constraints and time lines.

    Beliriel ,

    Lol I still don’t really understand ipv6 and I work in IT. Ipv4 is so much easier and nicer to work with

    WhyJiffie ,

    and HVEC/VP9 replaced that

    I wouldn’t say that. Maybe youtube uses it by default (I don’t know, though) but a lot of other sites still use H264.

    And I don’t see AV1 even on the horizon.
    A couple of years ago (2?) I tried converting some of my huge H264 video files to AV1 with then up to date ffmpeg. It was horrendously slow. I don’t remember the numbers but I’m pretty sure it was progressing much slower than the clock.

    Aux ,

    No.

    Polar ,

    Yes.

    Would you like to explain why you say no?

    Saizaku ,

    Because you’re implying that it’s 50x more efficient than jpeg, it’s not. For similar visual quality of images webp will on average produce a ~30% smaller file.

    Aux ,

    WebP files are usually only 24-35% smaller developers.google.com/speed/webp/docs/webp_study

    The real question is the hell did people downvote me? Looks like Lemmy turned into Reddit in a month’s time…

    LegionEris ,

    The real question is the hell did people downvote me?

    You shut someone down without informing or educating them on a text based discussion centric community with an academic stick up its ass. A one word response to a complex technical question is terrible etiquette in this sort of social environment.

    Aux ,

    So… Reddit, ok.

    williams_482 ,
    @williams_482@startrek.website avatar

    The real question is the hell did people downvote me? Looks like Lemmy turned into Reddit in a month’s time…

    Next time lead with the why instead of a one word “no”. This is a discussion forum, nobody knows who you are and certainly nobody is taking your word as truth if you don’t provide evidence.

    Aux ,

    It should be obvious why to any person.

    FourPacketsOfPeanuts ,

    Bruh…

    arandomuser ,

    Absolutely not. 5mb is what his phone spit out and it could trivially have been reduced to a 100kb easily as a jpeg

    Zarxrax ,

    5mb to 100kb is not a typical result, so I would imagine that you are comparing apples to oranges (e.g. a very high quality jpeg vs a low quality webp)

    Lazylazycat , to nostupidquestions in Is having an Android really a deal-breaker for some people?
    @Lazylazycat@lemmy.world avatar

    I think this must be a cultural thing because no one in the UK sends SMS messages. Everyone just uses WhatsApp or signal or telegram. I’m android and have literally never had anyone mention the colour of my bubble. I didn’t know this was a thing!

    magic_lobster_party ,

    I think it’s mostly an US thing. The rest of the world has moved away from SMS.

    Ricaz ,
    @Ricaz@lemmy.world avatar

    I use SMS in Denmark with people I don’t know personally. Apps like Telegram or WhatsApp aren’t common here (yet) unfortunately.

    Everyone has Facebook and uses Messenger. The absolute worst of all the choices…

    Kekzkrieger ,

    I would never install any of the Meta shit apps no matter what. I quit FB in 2017 and never looked back

    Ricaz ,
    @Ricaz@lemmy.world avatar

    I’ve tried many times to convert my non-techy friends but it’s impossible.

    It’s hard to argue with “literally everyone I know uses Messenger”.

    Kekzkrieger ,

    Well i went the hard route of just uninstalling Whatsapp and FB, they know how to reach me and can call if need to be.

    A big advantage is i can get excited when they show me their vacation pics again and its not the i have already seen those pics on insta/fb.

    Its a bold move and you may feel a bit left out ( i felt like that) but over time you get used to it and it feels kinda relaxing

    deweydecibel ,

    It’s mostly a US thing because Android is the standard pretty much everywhere except the US.

    Matte ,

    this is definitely not true.

    ikidd ,
    @ikidd@lemmy.world avatar
    Ducks ,
    @Ducks@ducks.dev avatar

    Android makes up over 70% of the global phone market, what’s not true?

    TimeIntegrated ,

    From what I read it depends on country. Android may have 70% in aggregate but iOS can still dominate in individual countries - e.g. Japan, Denmark, Norway, …

    Silviecat44 ,

    Lol not true

    carbotect ,

    American Android users are part of the problem, because they refuse to use messenger apps and cling onto SMS as well

    toxicbubble ,

    that’s because other countries have affordable data & available wifi…

    carbotect ,

    iMessage also runs on data/wifi. So I don’t think, this is really about affordable data and more just stubborness from the Android side.

    AnUnusualRelic ,
    @AnUnusualRelic@lemmy.world avatar

    SMS is also basically free in several places, so there’s that.

    LightDelaBlue ,
    @LightDelaBlue@lemmy.world avatar

    also the case here. but why bother with old crappy sms wen you got 3g,4g and 5g?

    zeroxxx ,

    US haven’t moved away from Imperial either 😂

    Americans please

    RealNooshie OP ,

    I’m from the US and people are using SMS less and less I feel like (though again, I’m biased because Android). Even most of my networking for work is done on Instagram, which to me is incredibly bizarre.

    can ,

    Canada too, but at least we don’t rely on whatsapp/meta

    Th4tGuyII ,
    @Th4tGuyII@kbin.social avatar

    Yeah, this is definitely a US-centric thing. Almost nobody I know (UK) uses SMS as their default, it's usually the last resort before just ringing the person.

    r00ty Admin ,
    r00ty avatar

    I think the only SMS messages I get are from the Doctor.

    ABCDE ,

    Mine are just for 2FA.

    lorcster123 ,

    My mam sends me them sometimes but shes just old lol

    r00ty Admin ,
    r00ty avatar

    Damn, the fact I remember mobile phones before they could even send text messages makes me feel ancient now.

    nodiet ,

    How old are you? When I studied in Scotland 2016-2020, the preferred messaging app was messenger (i.e. facebook), and I’m curious whether that has changed in the last 3 years or whether it’s a different demographic.

    ttmrichter ,

    Wait, this is over SMS!?!? How quaint! I haven’t seen anybody use an SMS for anything outside of spam in years!

    daleus ,

    Apart from SMS Auth and occasionally a “NEW FIRE BUD 10/10 stardawg smoke ring me” messages, apart from those SMS is dead…

    You’re right on the money with this comment, what a strange country they have over there…

    obinice ,
    @obinice@lemmy.world avatar

    no one in the UK sends SMS messages

    I do, I use stuff like WhatsApp and Discord too mainly of course, but an SMS is fast and reliable, as opposed to the others that require a decent data signal on both the sender and receiver (which is often lacking on my network unfortunately).

    Plus, I can schedule SMS messages for a particular time so as to not wake the recipient up if I want to send them a message in the middle of the night, very handy!

    Plus, I can theme my SMS app however I want, changing colours, fonts, etc, to be exactly what I like, as well as picking out an SMS app that has the features I’m looking for in the first place (I recommend Chomp). I find applications like WhatsApp to be extremely limited in this regard. Not a deal breaker, but I do love customisability and choice.

    I certainly don’t use SMS anywhere near as much as Discord, but it’s wonderful to have it, and I use it regularly :-D

    P.S I’ve wanted to use Signal for years but nobody I meet uses it :-( Such a shame, it seems neat!

    P.P.S Telegram looks neat too, unfortunately again the adoption with people I know is strangely just 100% furries and nobody else, so I stick to the client that everybody uses rather than having a bunch of them installed (Discord & occasionally WhatsApp).

    Lazylazycat ,
    @Lazylazycat@lemmy.world avatar

    Fair enough! Maybe it depends on where you live, too. My parents live in rural Cornwall so if I send an SMS they might not get it for a few days (no signal where they live) but their WiFi is good so they’ll definitely get a WhatsApp (or other) message.

    Rick , to showerthoughts in If we call reddit users redditors, what do we call lemmy users

    Lemmings is the obvious choice

    Stuka ,

    I’ll stand by this till the end.

    randyleram ,

    I concur!

    Holodeck_Moriarty ,

    Yes, I’m willing to follow all of you off a cliff.

    20gramsWrench ,

    Did you know, the famous shot of lemmings falling of a cliff in the documentary that started the ideas that lemmings will just die following their peers of a cliff was actually a bunch of documentary makers pushing a bunch of lemming off of it to make a cool shot and not actual lemmings behavior ? You probably did actually…

    Holodeck_Moriarty ,

    Yeah, I head heard that… Super depressing. =(

    GeoGio7 ,

    Is this legit? Do you have a source I could read? If this is real that’s so effed

    20gramsWrench ,

    heard about it on jre, didn’t even attempt to verify, so no sauce but a trust me bro, this version of the story has little enough consequences and aligns with my beliefs enough that I don’t mind believing it even if it isn’t true

    GeoGio7 ,

    No offense but that doesn’t seem like a good mentality to have…

    Amol ,

    You can find it on the wikipedia page of the film, but if you search for it on the internet you find a ton of sources https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/White_Wilderness_(film)

    Megaphauna ,

    Lemming and proud

    aldamar ,

    who would chose to be retarded

    jordanlund , to news in Alec Baldwin’s involuntary manslaughter case dismissed, cannot be filed again
    @jordanlund@lemmy.world avatar

    Looks like he…

    🕶️

    Dodged a bullet…

    slingstone ,

    Queue loud song by The Who…

    Retreaux ,

    YEEEEEEEEEEEAAAAAAAAAAAAAAH!

    TheFriar ,

    ¿Que loud song?

    slingstone ,

    We’re talking about the way a TV show starts called CSI: MIAMI.

    Basically, there’s always a clever remark from the lead, followed by the opening credits accompanied by part of a song by The Who.

    catloaf ,

    The word for signaling something is “cue”. A queue is a bunch of people in line; the words are homonyms. They are using “que” as a joke due to the similar spelling and somewhat similar pronunciation.

    slingstone ,

    You’re right. I’m an idiot.

    RizzRustbolt ,

    Baba O’reilly.

    maccentric ,

    Won’t Get Fooled Again

    Denvil , to lemmyshitpost in Front and Backflipping

    John Cartwheel would like a word with both of them

    ThrowawaySobriquet ,

    No one gives Tina Tumble credit for starting the whole upside-down-then-not movement

    Nfamwap ,

    We just glossing over the influence of Sammy Somersault? His early work was groundbreaking.

    aniki ,

    That’s because of that grandstanding cunt, Bobby Barrelroll.

    werefreeatlast ,

    A cousin, second removed from Whil Wilson of the Wheeler family.

    Th4tGuyII , (edited ) to science_memes in 🥲🥲🤡
    @Th4tGuyII@fedia.io avatar

    I too am absolutely pumped to live in a world where human artistry is all but confined to the wealthy, and we all get AI generated pseudo-art instead! Woot woot!

    perishthethought ,

    <shudder> Nightmare scenario

    chonglibloodsport ,

    Isn’t that how it was for the majority of history? Minus the AI crap anyway.

    Still, the average person has incredible opportunity to see some of the very best art, as long as they live in or near a big city. Admission to most galleries or museums is not expensive at all.

    Droggelbecher ,

    The problem is that the average working class person doesn’t have a lot of time where they also have energy and don’t have to do chores. In that state, most people aren’t receptive for learning and enjoying culture. And it’s very understandable.

    chonglibloodsport ,

    I think that has more to do with technology and the attention economy than anything else. Working class people used to read books a lot more than they do now. Then along came TV (aka the idiot box) to soak up those free hours. Now it’s all Facebook, Instagram, TikTok, YouTube, Netflix.

    lennivelkant ,

    I doubt working class people spent their evenings reading high-brow books. Magazines, cheaper novels, things that don’t demand much mental investment after 8+ hours of work have drained your energy and left a little for chores.

    Families that could live on a single income may have had more time, but if that has reduced, it may well because a single income often can’t sustain a whole family any more.

    TV didn’t magically create a need for mindless entertainment. It may have supplanted other recreational activities, but it couldn’t replace e.g. meeting up for a drink and a nice chat unless the convenience of it outweighed the loss of social activity.

    chonglibloodsport ,

    They might not have read Joyce but I can guarantee they were reading Steinbeck, Hemingway, Poe, Whitman, Dickinson, Twain, Vonnegut, Lee, Salinger, Frost.

    All the novels and poetry in the American canon, the stuff high school students groan about having to read today, were once bestsellers in their day. You don’t get to be a bestseller back then by selling only to millionaires.

    Semjaza ,

    No, (though depends on your definition of art) but there’s a reason that public buildings (Churches, for instance) were often the best decorated with murals, frescoes, and statues.

    Also within local communities there would be musicians and artisans who were known for their work.

    That said, art did become more privatised once the 17th century rolled around. Obviously varied by geographic regions, etc. (e.g. Artist items (amongst other items of worth) were deliberately shared out by many American Indian groups in potlatches as acts of redistribution.)

    sylver_dragon , to asklemmy in Can I refuse MS Authenticator?

    I work in cybersecurity for a large company, which also uses the MS Authenticator app on personal phones (I have it on mine). I do get the whole “Microsoft bad” knee-jerk reaction. I’m typing this from my personal system, running Arch Linux after accepting the difficulties of gaming on Linux because I sure as fuck don’t want to deal with Microsoft’s crap in Windows 11. That said, I think you’re picking the wrong hill to die on here.

    In this day and age, Two Factor Authentication (2FA) is part of Security 101. So, you’re going to be asked to do something to have 2FA working on your account. And oddly enough, one of the reasons that the company is asking you to install it on your own phone is that many people really hate fiddling with multiple phones (that’s the real alternative). There was a time, not all that long ago, where people were screaming for more BYOD. Now that it can be done reasonably securely, companies have gone “all in” on it. It’s much cheaper and easier than a lot of the alternatives. I’d love to convince my company to switch over to Yubikeys or the like. As good as push authentication is, it is still vulnerable to social engineering and notification exhaustion attacks. But, like everything in security, it’s a trade off between convenience, cost and security. So, that higher level of security is only used for accessing secure enclaves where highly sensitive data is kept.

    As for the “why do they pick only this app”, it’s likely some combination of picking a perceived more secure option and “picking the easiest path”. For all the shit Microsoft gets (and they deserve a lot of it), the authenticator app is actually one of the better things they have done. SMS and apps like Duo or other Time based One Time Password (TOTP) solutions, can be ok for 2FA. But, they have a well known weakness around social engineering. And while Microsoft’s “type this number” system is only marginally better, it creates one more hurdle for the attacker to get over with the user. As a network defender, the biggest vulnerability we deal with is the interface between the chair and the keyboard. The network would be so much more secure if I could just get rid of all the damned users. But, management insists on letting people actually use their computers, so we need to find a balance where users have as many chances as is practical to remember us saying “IT will never ask you to do this!” And that extra step of typing in the number from the screen is putting one more roadblock in the way of people just blinding giving up their credentials. It’s a more active thing for the user to do and may mean they turn their critical thinking skills on just long enough to stop the attack. I will agree that this is a dubious justification, but network defenders really are in a state of throwing anything they can at this problem.

    Along with that extra security step, there’s probably a bit of laziness involved in picking the Microsoft option. Your company picked O365 for productivity software. While yes, “Microsoft bad” the fact is they won the productivity suite war long, long ago. Management won’t give a shit about some sort of ideological rejection of Microsoft. As much as some groups may dislike it, the world runs on Microsoft Office. And Microsoft is the king of making IT’s job a lot easier if IT just picks “the Microsoft way”. This is at the heart of Extend, Embrace, Extinguish. Once a company picks Microsoft for anything, it becomes much easier to just pick Microsoft for everything. While I haven’t personally set up O365 authentication, I’m willing to bet that this is also the case here. Microsoft wants IT teams to pick Microsoft and will make their UIs even worse for IT teams trying to pick “not Microsoft”. From the perspective of IT, you wanting to do something else creates extra work for them. If your justification is “Microsoft bad”, they are going to tell you to go get fucked. Sure, some of them might agree with you. I spent more than a decade as a Windows sysadmin and even I hate Microsoft. But being asked to stand up and support a whole bunch because of shit for one user’s unwillingness to use a Microsoft app, that’s gonna be a “no”. You’re going to need a real business justification to go with that.

    That takes us to the privacy question. And I’ll admit I don’t have solid answers here. On Android, the app asks for permissions to “Camera”, “Files and Media” and “Location”. I personally have all three of these set to “Do Not Allow”. I’ve not had any issues with the authentication working; so, I suspect none of these permissions are actually required. I have no idea what the iOS version of the app requires. So, YMMV. With no other permissions, the ability of the app to spy on me is pretty limited. Sure, it might have some sooper sekret squirrel stuff buried in it. But, if that is your threat model, and you are not an activist in an authoritarian country or a journalist, you really need to get some perspective. No one, not even Microsoft is trying that hard to figure out the porn you are watching on your phone. Microsoft tracking where you log in to your work from is not all that important of information. And it’s really darned useful for cyber security teams trying to keep attackers out of the network.

    So ya, this is really not a battle worth picking. It may be that they have picked this app simply because “no one ever got fired for picking Microsoft”. But, you are also trying to fight IT simplifying their processes for no real reason. The impetus isn’t really on IT to demonstrate why they picked this app. It is a secure way to do 2FA and they likely have a lot of time, effort and money wrapped up in supporting this solution. But, you want to be a special snowflake because “Microsoft bad”. Ya, fuck right off with that shit. Unless you are going to take the time to reverse engineer the app and show why the company shouldn’t pick it, you’re just being a whiny pain in the arse. Install the app, remove it’s permissions and move on with life. Or, throw a fit and have the joys of dealing with two phones. Trust me, after a year or so of that, the MS Authenticator app on your personal phone will feel like a hell of a lot better idea.

    techingtenor ,

    To add on, at my work we started getting yubikeys for the people who didnt want Microsoft’s authenticator on their phone and found they still need to download the mfa to set up the yubikey in the first place. So its not a perfect solution if you dont want the authenticator to touch your phone at all.

    I can also confirm that the help desk members who are not enlightened about Microsoft will ridicule you for not wanting the MFA even if its reasonable to not want Microsoft on your phone. As much as we think all techs are Linux nerds, I have the opposite at my work. Some of the higher up techs are constantly trying to get people to switch to windows 11…

    deweydecibel ,

    When I got the few emails from users at my organization who refused to use the app on their phones, I was ecstatic and I went to bat for them with our section director who insisted on making it mandatory, no exceptions.

    Unfortunately most people in IT seem to just be lazy and believe “if it makes my job easier, absolutely no other concerns are relevant”.

    IHawkMike ,

    This is incredibly well said and I agree 100%. I’ll just add that software TOTP is weaker than the MS Authenticator with number matching because the TOTP seed can still be intercepted and/or stolen by an attacker.

    Ever notice that TOTP can be backed up and restored to a new device? If it can be transferred, then the device no longer counts for the “something you have” second factor in my threat model.

    While I prefer pure phishing-resistant MFA methods (FIDO2, WHFB, or CBA), the support isn’t quite there yet for mobile devices (especially mobile browsers) so the MS Authenticator is the best alternative we have.

    deweydecibel ,

    Ever notice that TOTP can be backed up and restored to a new device? If it can be transferred, then the device no longer counts for the “something you have” second factor in my threat model.

    The administrator can restrict this.

    IHawkMike ,

    We can restrict the use of software TOTP, which is what companies are doing when they move users onto the MS Authenticator app.

    Admins can’t control the other TOTP apps like Google Authenticator or Authy unless they go full MDM. And I don’t think someone worried about installing the MS Authenticator app is going to be happy about enrolling their phone in Intune.

    Edit: And even then, there is no way to control or force users to use a managed device for software TOTP.

    deweydecibel ,

    No, you can actually block them from adding additional devices. Once they add a TOTP device, they can not add or change to another without admin approval.

    But more to the point, if the admin requires the management of the authentication software, I.e. Bitwarden or authy or whatever, then they clearly have concerns about the security of the MFA on the user’s device. If text messages are no longer considered secure then we move to the TOTP apps, but now if we’re just summarily deciding the apps are no longer considered secure, we’re demanding a secure app controlled by the admin must be used for MFA.

    Can we not see where this is going next? Are we really under the delusion that because we have this magical Microsoft Authentication app now, MFA need never become more secure? This is the end of the road, nothing else will be asked of the user ever again?

    If the concern is for the security of MFA on the user’s side of that equation, then trying to manage that security on a device that company does not own is a waste of time. Eventually this is not going to be enough.

    So let’s just skip this step entirely and move on to fully controlled company devices used for MFA.

    IHawkMike ,

    Look man, it’s okay to be wrong. It’s a natural part of growth.

    But when you double down on your ignorance instead of taking the opportunity to open your mind and listen to the experts in the room, you just end up embarrassing yourself.

    Try to be better.

    deweydecibel , (edited )

    Unless you are going to take the time to reverse engineer the app and show why the company shouldn’t pick it, you’re just being a whiny pain in the arse.

    You’re god damn right they are, and they have every right to be. I’m in It too and I’m absolutely sick of the condescending attitude and downright laziness of people in the field who constantly act like what the users want doesn’t matter. If they don’t want it on their personal device, they don’t need a damn reason.

    This job is getting easier all the time, complaining because users don’t want Microsoft trash on their phone might make marginally more work for you is exactly as whiny.

    Or, throw a fit and have the joys of dealing with two phones. Trust me, after a year or so of that, the MS Authenticator app on your personal phone will feel like a hell of a lot better idea.

    I see this all the time and it’s downright hysterical. Who the hell can’t handle having to have two devices on them?

    “Oh yeah you’ll regret asking for this! Just wait till you have to pull out that other thing in your bag occasionally! You’ll be sorry you ever spoke up!”

    Also, develop some pattern recognition. If you can’t see how Microsoft makes this substantially worse once other methods have been choked out, you haven’t learned a thing about them in the last 30 years.

    sylver_dragon ,

    You’re god damn right they are, and they have every right to be. I’m in It too and I’m absolutely sick of the condescending attitude and downright laziness of people in the field who constantly act like what the users want doesn’t matter. If they don’t want it on their personal device, they don’t need a damn reason.

    Sure, and I suspect they company will have another option for folks who either can’t or won’t put the application on their personal device. It’s probably also going to be far less convenient for the user. Demanding that the company implement the user’s preferred option is where the problem arises.

    complaining because users don’t want Microsoft trash on their phone might make marginally more work for you is exactly as whiny.

    It’s a matter of scale. In a company of any size, you are going to find someone who objects to almost anything. This user doesn’t like Microsoft. Ok, let’s implement Google. Oh wait, the user over there doesn’t like Google. This will go on and on until the IT department is supporting lots of different applications and each one will have a non-zero cost in time and effort. And each of those “small things” has a way of adding up to a big headache for IT. We live in a world of finite resources, and IT departments are usually dealing with even more limited resources. At some point they have to be able to cut their losses and say, “here are the officially supported solutions, pick one”. While this creates issues for individuals throughout the organization, it’s usually small issues, spread out over lots of people versus lots of small issues concentrated in one group.

    If you’re in IT, you’ve likely seen (and probably supported) this sort of standardization in action. I can’t count the number of places where every system is some flavor of Dell or HP. And the larger organizations usually have a couple of standard configurations around expected use case. You’re an office worker, here’s a basic laptop with 16Gb of RAM, and mid level CPU and fuck all for a GPU. Developer? Right, here’s the top end CPU, as much RAM as we can stuff in the box and maybe a discreet GPU. AI/ML work? here’s the login for AWS. Edge cases will get dealt with in a one-off fashion, there’s always going to be the random Mac running around the network, but support will always be sketchy for those. It’s all down to standardizing on a few, well known solutions to make support and troubleshooting easier. Sure, there are small shops out there willing to live with beige box deployments. Again, that does not scale.

    I see this all the time and it’s downright hysterical. Who the hell can’t handle having to have two devices on them? “Oh yeah you’ll regret asking for this! Just wait till you have to pull out that other thing in your bag occasionally! You’ll be sorry you ever spoke up!”

    Hey, if that’s your thing, great. But, there is a reason BYOD took off. And a lot of that was on users pushing for it. Having been on the implementation side, it certainly wasn’t IT or security departments pushing for this. BYOD is still a goddamn nightmare from an insider threat perspective. And it causes no end of headaches for Help Desks trying to support FSM knows what ancient piece of crap someone dredges up from the depths of history. Yes, it’s a bit of cop out to give the user a crappy solution, because they push back against the easy one. But, it’s also a matter of trying to keep things working in a standardized fashion. A standard configuration phone, with the required pre-installed, gives the user the option they want and also keeps IT from having do deal with yet more non-standard systems. It’s a win for everyone, even if it’s not the win the user wanted.

    Also, develop some pattern recognition. If you can’t see how Microsoft makes this substantially worse once other methods have been choked out, you haven’t learned a thing about them in the last 30 years.

    I do understand how bad Microsoft can be. I was an early adopter of Windows Me. And also have memories of Microsoft whining about de-coupling IE from the OS. And I don’t want MS to win out as the authentication app for everyone. That said, I still believe that the Microsoft Authenticator app on a personal device is the wrong hill to die on. There is a lot of non-Microsoft software out there and there are plenty of options out there. But, Microsoft software using the Microsoft app isn’t surprising or insidious.

    AtariDump ,

    Who the hell can’t handle having to have two devices on them?

    Hillary Clinton

    scrubbles ,
    @scrubbles@poptalk.scrubbles.tech avatar

    Hey now, this doesn’t fit with our narrative of the evil evil company here. Get this out of here! Just because it’s a 2FA app doesn’t negate that it’s microshitz!

    Randomgal ,

    Fuck me I wish we could get more of these actual thoughtful answers instead of generic “hurdurr muh privacy megacorp bad”

    AngryCommieKender ,

    All extremely good reasons to need the MFA.

    Howerver it is on the company to provide the hardware. My phone is my phone. They didn’t buy it, they don’t pay for it, they don’t get any say in what gets installed. I don’t have to pay for my company provided computer either, so I don’t care what they need me to install on that.

    sylver_dragon ,

    My phone is my phone. They didn’t buy it, they don’t pay for it

    And that’s completely fair. As I said above, the end result will almost certainly be a company provided phone with company provided apps. I’ve seen (and had) both solutions. It all comes down to how you view the risks. If you see running a Microsoft app on your personal phone as too great a risk to your privacy, then go for the two phone option. Personally, I don’t see that as a high risk and think it’s kinda silly.

    rekabis ,

    You work in cybersecurity, yet you have company-controlled assets on your personal phone?

    X DOUBT

    Either you don’t give a single sh*t about your personal privacy, or…

    And no, this isn’t “Microsoft bad”, this is “your company is inherently and fundamentally untrustworthy”. The app is, IMHO, one of the best ones out there, I would just never trust any company I worked for to keep their nose out of my personal life. A lot of the software that companies use to lock down mobile devices are hella invasive, and any company asset on a phone typically includes a demand to install the security software as well. Any of that shit should ALWAYS be on a company-provided phone, bro.

    sylver_dragon ,

    You work in cybersecurity, yet you have company-controlled assets on your personal phone?
    X DOUBT
    Either you don’t give a single sh*t about your personal privacy, or…

    Here’s the rub, I’ve been through enough of this to take a realistic, risk based approach to security. Knee-jerk reactions like the one you are giving are not really useful. Step back for a moment and think about what’s going on here. First and foremost, this isn’t MDM on a device, that’s entirely different from installing the MS Authenticator app from the public Google Play store and adding a work account to it. So no, the company is not able to go rooting around in the user’s device willy-nilly. Second, even with MDM, IT control of the user’s device isn’t what it used to be. Google implemented containerization of work profiles some time back. Without Work Profiles and containerization, I would agree that enrolling my personal device in MDM carries too much risk to my privacy and also having my device remote wiped. But, the advance of technology has altered that calculus. While there are still risks to consider with having a work profile on my device, it’s also not as worrisome as it used to be.

    Security isn’t some binary thing. There is no hard and fast set of rules, given from some entity on high. It’s a game of deciding what risks are acceptable and what risks need to be mitigated and how. If you work for a company which you believe is trying to use MDM to go rooting around in your personal device, I’d suggest finding an new job. This isn’t to say you should trust the company 100%; but, you need to take a realistic look at what the ask is, what risks it carries and if the trade-off in convenience is worth it. The risks inherent in the MS Authenticator app are basically nil. At least on Android, you can audit it’s permissions and disable the ones you don’t want it to have. The app provides zero control over the device to the company. Really, there’s just nothing there to get your panties in a bunch about.

    But hey, if knee-jerk reactions are your thing, then you do you. This whole tempest in a teapot still amounts to “Microsoft bad”.

    gregorum , to asklemmy in Would you support a mandatory retirement age of 75 for US House, US Senate & US Supreme Court Justices and if not why?

    I think it should be younger. Maybe 65.

    Members of Congress and SCOTUS should also have term limits

    seaQueue , (edited )
    @seaQueue@lemmy.world avatar

    I’m onboard with 65 as the maximum age anyone can run for Congress but I don’t have a problem with people 65+ finishing their terms provided they’re actually competent. I’d like to see mandatory cognitive decline testing for anyone running for Congress, appointed to the SC or appointed to any high position in the executive branch.

    It’s absolutely ridiculous that we’re allowing people with 5-7y remaining life expectancy to plan our future 20, 40 or 100y out - they just don’t have the skin in the game that someone in their 20s of 30s does.

    On top of all of that I’d like to see vigorous corruption testing, SC justices and congresscreatures shouldn’t be bought and paid for the way they are now.

    Carighan ,
    @Carighan@lemmy.world avatar

    Yeah that sounds reasonable. You can at most finish your current term once you’re past 65. And term-limit everything, Justices, whatever.

    stoy ,

    “After many decades of civil service, it is time for the state to give back to our hard working representatives. Therefore they will be retired in januray of the year following their 65th birthday”

    “January 6th has for the last few years been a reminder of an embarrassing moment in our history, well no longer! January 6th shall henceforth be known as a day of celebration, celebrating not only long and faithfull service but also new talents, skills and hope for the furue! Join us, as we once again rejuvinate our government to keep our nation strong and dependable!”

    Rivalarrival , (edited )

    I agree on the legislature, but not the court. The legislature has to plan for the future. Their age should be below the average life expectancy. They need to have a foreseeable future for us to allow them to plan ours.

    I would resolve the instability of the court by eliminating its fixed size. One new justice shall be appointed every other year. In the odd-numbered years, between election cycles.

    This will tend to increase the size of the court over time. The average term length is currently about 16 years, but that is with strategic retirements. I would expect the average term to increase to 24 to 36 years, leaving us with a court of 12 to 18 justices.

    b3an ,
    @b3an@lemmy.world avatar

    Honest question, what do we do that we are now living longer, and have better quality of life and medical advancements? With AI progressing exponentially, this will likely increase average lifespans in developed countries. You might be arguing against your own comments here when you hit 65 and realize you still maintain mental acuity and are thriving.

    Personally, I feel like we should be spending our time and focus on fixing a number of other issues. Namely lobbying, special interest groups tied to anti-consumer companies, ‘slap on the wrist’ fines for billion dollar companies, predatory lending, student loans. I mean the list goes on. These things aren’t an age problem, it’s a corruption problem.

    gregorum ,

    You might be arguing against your own comments here when you hit 65 and realize you still maintain mental acuity and are thriving.

    I’m not running for office nor scotus. But if I were, I’d hope reason would dictate sensible policy, not magical thinking about whatever far-off technological theoretical you might imagine.

    b3an ,
    @b3an@lemmy.world avatar

    Then you are not apprised of history.

    In 1900, the average life expectancy of a newborn was 32 years. By 2021 this had more than doubled to 71 years.

    But life expectancy has increased at all ages. Infants, children, adults, and the elderly are all less likely to die than in the past, and death is being delayed.

    This remarkable shift results from advances in medicine, public health, and living standards. Along with it, many predictions of the ‘limit’ of life expectancy have been broken.

    I’m not saying we’ll be doubling lifespans, but if you looked at the big picture, we’ve made HUGE strides and advances in a very short period of time. Especially if you consider how long humans have been around. Now we have CRISPR gene editing for example, and very obviously artifical intelligence/machine learning will grow exponentially fast.

    This is not “magical thinking” about “far-off technological” theory. This is modern day and recent history, and already we expect global life expectancy to increase by nearly 5 years by 2050 despite geopolitical, metabolic, and environmental threats.

    I also didn’t say anything about ignoring policy in lieu of science, and pointed out several areas I personally feel could use attention. However that is my own opinion… Just like you on running/not for office.

    It is also clear that some aged people are ‘sharp’ to the end, just as some can be debilitated earlier to disease and age. Sensible policy is also welcome. I just don’t think we should lump everyone together using an arbitrary metric.

    gregorum ,

    I’m glad you have a hobby tracking the historical progress of life-extending technology, but I find your entire premise to be a straw man.

    I have no concern about them not living long enough. So your magical “maybes” and “it could happens” are completely irrelevant.

    BrikoX , to nostupidquestions in [Serious] Why do so many people seem to hate veganism?
    @BrikoX@lemmy.zip avatar

    From what I have seen, it more stems from the activism vegans are engaged in more than the actual veganism.

    CalciumDeficiency OP ,

    I think there’s nothing wrong with explaining your ideas and why you believe them to those willing to listen, but I can see why pushy activism for any cause can get annoying quickly. There are often Jehovah’s witnesses outside my local supermarket, for example, but they only give you a pamphlet if you specifically approach them

    themeatbridge ,

    It’s not just pushy, it’s judgemental and vitriolic

    Oh, you eat meat, murderer? Your shoes are made from the skins of defenseless creatures. The sugar you’re so callously adding to your coffee was processed with ground-up bones, you unredeemable monster.

    Even the arguments for veganism that aren’t built on animal cruelty still take on an air of moral superiority. Don’t you care about the planet and future generations? How dare you trade carbon emissions for the temporary comfort of a bacon cheeseburger!

    The vegan movement has always been associated with anger and contempt, even if it is justified.

    BearOfaTime , (edited )

    And it’s history stems from religious ideology.

    Edit: oh you downvoters. Go look it up. A woman had a vision from God that said “don’t eat things with faces”. Dead serious - that’s where it started.

    All the sciencey justifications today are post-hoc rationalization.

    Feyd ,

    In my experience it’s usually more like: Them: here have some of this meat thing Me: No thanks Them: why not it’s really good try some Me: i don’t eat meat Them: but why? Me: to reduce animal cruelty and environmental harm Them: wow how dare you be so judgy

    I’m not really sure how I’m supposed to not offend this type of person in this situation and frankly I don’t think it’s my fault or my problem they’re offended. My theory is that that agree with my reasons but rather than change or live with the cognitive dissonance they just lash out at anyone that reminds them they could be living more ethically even if they basically MAKE them say it.

    Blaming vegans for that is bullshit, frankly

    Pronell ,

    That isn’t the type of behavior that I think most find annoying but I’m sorry that you get that reaction at all.

    I think many people are so annoyed with feeling they are attacked for eating meat (and I do eat meat) that when that button gets pressed the anger just rises up.

    For me I get a little true guilt. I know I’m not helping in the best possible ways that I can, all the time. I’m not perfect and won’t ever pretend that I am, and I also haven’t given up on getting better. When I go a day without eating meat, I congratulate myself. With a burger. (No, not really.)

    fishos ,
    @fishos@lemmy.world avatar

    Some people see “to reduce animal cruelty” as judgy because that’s just how nature is. The moral superiority comes from you acting like you’re somehow above everyone and everything else. It’s entirely in your wording and the implications that if you eat meat, you enjoy animal suffering vs seeing it as a natural outcome of nature.

    Feyd ,
    1. This is completely besides the point, but I personally view factory farming as different than what happens in nature.
    2. This is also beside the point, but you are making some wild logical leaps here. The fact that I personally don’t want to support factory farming because I think it is cruel in no way means that I think other people “enjoy animal suffering” and assuming that is arbitrarily assigning thoughts I have never had to me.
    3. None of the above is really relevant because I should be allowed to go about my day without justifying my dietary choices just as people that eat meat should.
    themeatbridge ,

    Look, you don’t deserve the treatment you’ve described. Everyone here agrees with you on that.

    The person you were replying to was trying to explain why what you said might be interpreted as judgemental, even if that’s not how you meant it (and we all believe you, even if the people you’re talking about don’t).

    I think the last line sums it up. You don’t eat meat, and that’s the only explanation you owe anyone.

    However, I know that when I’m providing a meal and I learn someone doesn’t eat meat, I always ask follow up questions because maybe I cooked the 1rice with chicken stock, or maybe the vegetables were sauteed in butter. If it is a moral choice, I would appreciate a heads up so I can prepare a meal everyone can enjoy. I’m not irritated by the request, because that’s the whole reason why you cook food for friends. If it’s a healthy choice, you might still eat some of the brown rice, or maybe I sub oil for butter. Those are changes I can make on the fly.

    I know I’ve probably unintentionally offended some vegans by probing for more answers. And I’ve met some vegans who are every bit as judgemental as you’ve been assumed to be. We could all do a little bit better at understanding each other.

    illi ,

    I’d not see it as judgemental, just trying to inform. These days meatcis just a commodity, completely disasociated from the animals it comes from and without second thougt on how those animals are treated. If I go into detail like this, it’s really just to get the info out there in a casual way. The person in question might ignore it, or may think about it. I also needed nudges like this to realize the moral issue and I’m happy for every one of them. I don’t really go into detail much, and rarely inform someone about my preferences. But will answer truthfuly when asked

    If someone chooses to ignore ot just not see the suffering behind eating meat in this day and age, it is frustrating though to say the least. Especially if simply reducing the meat intake and being more selective about the source of the meat comes a long way. But I get why it is so tough, as I’m not a saint myself and while I reduce meat most of the time, I still have some occasionally even if I feel bad about it.

    Mastengwe ,

    Well said.

    spankinspinach ,

    In my experience, your first sentence sums it up nicely.

    They assume a moral high ground because they’ve adopted a diet that is generally deemed healthier and better for the environment (I don’t always agree with this).

    But unless they’re also doing all the things we could all do better (e.g. not buying new, not upgrading the the latest and greatest, not taking 40 minute showers, not eating out every second day), they’re only somewhat less guilty of environmental damage than the average person, but they’re taking a generally undeserved “holier than thou” position and then shoving it down your throat. This isn’t everyone, and I don’t really care what you eat, but these are the vegans that get under my skin.

    Inui , (edited )

    deleted_by_author

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  • NoIWontPickAName ,

    It would be someone being less of a hypocrite so you would not be seen as as annoying as the other option

    NoIWontPickAName ,

    Also I would always listen to you, I may not agree or take your advice, but I will listen to you

    themeatbridge ,

    Eh, I can see it both ways. Like, nobody is, or can be, perfect. That doesn’t mean they don’t have a valid moral argument for the good choices they make. They’re trying to be a better person, and I think it’s fair to help other people recognize the poor decisions they are making. Climate change especially affects all of us.

    On the other hand, you’re 100% correct. Nobody can lay exclusive claim to the high ground, so anybody acting superior is probably an asshole.

    FinishingDutch , (edited )
    @FinishingDutch@lemmy.world avatar

    There’s also the ‘guilt by association’. Look at organisations like PETA: they even complained about things like the treatment of entirely fictional animals in video games, like Palworld. Basically, you can’t even argue that ‘they look like real animals so it encourages real-world mistreatment’ like they usually do.

    That does not make you look particularly sane. I’m sure they do good work as well, but that sort of thing isn’t helping their cause.

    IronKrill ,

    Saying PETA is representative of vegans is rather like using Antifa as an example of liberals, or Info Wars for conservatives.

    FinishingDutch ,
    @FinishingDutch@lemmy.world avatar

    Which is exactly what everyone does. At least in the US. And every side is equally wrong about it.

    The loudest voices always draw the most attention. And I don’t know any other vegan voice that’s as loud as PETA’s. That’s kind of the problem.

    acockworkorange ,

    PETA might do something good by accident. They kill 60-70% of the pets they receive for donation, so I guess the lucky 1/3 that don’t get the ax are a good thing.

    NoIWontPickAName ,

    PETA was giving away free coloring books one time so I decided to order some for my kids thinking it would be good for them to hear from all sides.

    One of the pictures was three people standing over a turkey dinner with the most horrific caricatures you can think of absolutely salivating over how juicy the turkey was going to be.

    I shit you not.

    I had to trash the sons of bitches.

    Really killed that group for me, I always that people were exaggerating about them and how bad they are.

    They killed that little piece of me.

    Lileath ,
    @Lileath@lemmy.blahaj.zone avatar

    I will go and shoot the next dog I see. You won’t judge me for that, right?

    themeatbridge ,

    Yes, good example. It is precisely that sort of judgemental strawman bullshit that gives vegans a bad rep.

    AnyOldName3 ,
    @AnyOldName3@lemmy.world avatar

    The UK has a high rate of veganism, and part of that is attributed to the fact that the major vegetarian and vegan organisations in the UK generally recommend persuading people by offering them delicious food that is also vegetarian/vegan and saying it’s more ethical. On the other hand, the equivalent organisations in the US tend to lean more towards recommending telling people that eating animal products is unethical, and it’s difficult to accuse someone of unethical behaviour without being insulting. It also doesn’t help that multibillion-dollar organisations have run successful smear campaigns against groups like PETA - everyone’s heard of the time they took someone’s pet dog and killed it, but most aren’t aware that it happened once and gets reported on as if it’s news every few months, or that it was an accident as the dog’s collar had come off and it was with a group of strays, and got muddled with another dog, so was put down weeks earlier than it was supposed to be, bypassing the waiting period they had specifically to avoid this kind of mistake.

    NoIWontPickAName ,

    Check my comment history about 3 posts back to see my interaction with peta

    Confused_Emus , (edited )

    PETA has a lot more fucked up behavior under its belt than the one time they “accidentally” euthanized a dog they stole from someone, and much of their bad behavior has been very much maliciously intentional. Here just a small sample.

    ETA: A few more, because why the hell not? Fuck PETA.

    AnyOldName3 ,
    @AnyOldName3@lemmy.world avatar

    It doesn’t strengthen your point to link Fox News and the literal website for the smear campaign I mentioned: www.sourcewatch.org/index.php?title=PETA_Kills_An…

    As for PETA putting down lots of animals, that’s no secret. It’s really easy to get people to donate to a no-kill animal shelter, so there are lots of them. However, when you’re a no-kill animal shelter, and you’re full of animals you can’t kill, or are asked to take an animal that can’t be ethically be treated with anything other than euthanasia, you have to turn the animal down, and it ends up wherever will take it. Usually, that ends up being a PETA-run shelter. When a PETA-run shelter is being given all the rejects from everywhere else, it’s obviously going to end up putting lots of animals down. It’d be better for PR if they didn’t, but less ethical, and they prioritise the ethics above the PR.

    If you look at one of your more reliable sources, the Snopes article, it backs up what I’m saying, and not what you’re saying. It corroborates the story from my original post, lists another incident where PETA staff were accused but not convicted, and then discusses that they put down a lot of animals in their shelters, and how it includes healthy animals. The only controversy there is the definition of adoptable - a healthy stray kitten is theoretically adoptable, but if you get ten times as many kittens in a week as you do people wanting to adopt a kitten, 90% of them won’t get adopted, and your shelter will get quickly overcrowded if you insist on ignoring that fact.

    Confused_Emus ,

    I’m no fan of Fox News in general myself, but just because we don’t like them doesn’t make everything they publish false. And yeah, the PETA kills site clearly has an agenda, but their agenda is to try and save animals from PETA’s “love.” There’s sensationalism on that site, but there are also numbers, many of which come from PETA themselves.

    I linked the Snopes article knowing that it supported points from both sides. The point in linking that article is that it’s despicable that any of those reports of PETA’s disgusting behavior are true at all.

    You know what no-kill shelters try to do when they don’t have space? Coordinate with local foster programs, coordinate with other shelters to see if they have space. There are other alternatives besides taking in a perfectly healthy animal and dropping it in the euthanasia queue.

    I’m quite sure there are quite a few things PETA has been accused but not convicted of. When you’re a group of assholes as big as that, you get pretty good at skirting the fine lines of what’s legal and what’s not. They’re hardly the first example of groups like that.

    AnyOldName3 ,
    @AnyOldName3@lemmy.world avatar

    And yeah, the PETA kills site clearly has an agenda, but their agenda is to try and save animals from PETA’s “love.”

    Their agenda’s to make PETA look bad so people don’t become vegan or demand higher welfare standards from meat producers, and they can continue selling meat to Americans of such low standards that it would be illegal in the rest of the civilised world.

    You know what no-kill shelters try to do when they don’t have space? Coordinate with local foster programs, coordinate with other shelters to see if they have space. There are other alternatives besides taking in a perfectly healthy animal and dropping it in the euthanasia queue.

    As I said, they can’t do that once the foster programs and other shelters are full, too, and then overflow into PETA-run shelters because they’re the ones that still have a capability to receive more animals after they’re full. There aren’t enough shelters to keep every animal in good conditions until it’s either adopted or dies of natural causes, and no amount of coordination can magically create extra capacity.

    Confused_Emus ,

    I’m sure PETA shelters would have more capacity if they didn’t prefer to see an animal dead than a pet. They have significantly higher kill rates than any other shelters, and have made their stance pretty clear that they’re against animals being pets. No wonder they just keep killing them.

    Treczoks ,

    think there’s nothing wrong with explaining your ideas and why you believe them

    That’s actually not the problem. The problem are those who repeat themselves ever louder, even to people who have expressed disinterest.

    Wooki ,

    Have you heard about our lord and saviour of our sins?

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