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[Serious] Why do so many people seem to hate veganism?

Seen a lot of posts on Lemmy with vegan-adjacent sentiments but the comments are typically very critical of vegan ideas, even when they don’t come from vegans themselves. Why is this topic in particular so polarising on the internet? Especially since unlike politics for example, it seems like people don’t really get upset by it IRL

ImplyingImplications ,

I’ve been a vegetarian for 15 years. People IRL often do get offended if you tell them you don’t eat meat. I try my best to avoid saying it because it often leads to being lectured about proteins. Everyone suddenly becomes a nutritionist when you explain why you don’t eat meat.

warm ,

Why do they believe you only find protein in meat?

Starkstruck ,

Lots of people are really stupid

themeatbridge ,

And we’ve been (forgive the pun) fed propaganda by the industrial farming and food industry for generations, not to mention the religious right.

Thorry84 ,

You are not wrong. I am vegetarian for about 15 years and I’ve literally have had a father of a friend yell at me. He was telling vegetarians aren’t real and if anybody would actually not eat meat for a couple of months they would die because they would be missing vital nutrients only found in meat. He was yelling at me to stop telling lies and be truthful.

Tarquinn2049 ,

The things he’s eating often didn’t eat any meat. Hehe.

Burn_The_Right ,

Generations of marketing.

sik0fewl ,

Some essential amino acids are difficult to find in adequate quantities on a vegan diet. If you don’t vary your protein sources or make sure you are getting the right amino acids, then you may develop a deficiency, which can lead to poor health or even be fatal.

Inui ,

I’m not saying you’re incorrect. But I want to point out that many people who concern troll about how difficult vegan diets are to be healthy on are also people who don’t question how unhealthy their current choices are when it comes to consuming soda, energy drinks, red meat, other snacks, etc. Some people do, but most people who ask me about nutrition are not people who count their own calories or try to balance all their meals. It’s just as easy to be unhealthy as a non-vegan.

whoreticulture ,

I have read that this is largely a myth based on a book from the 70s, and that while there are varying proportions of amino acids in different vegan protein sources, there is still enough of each so that you could easily get everything you need.

I read this in a book years ago that I don’t remember the name of, but found a source instantly

www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC6893534/

sik0fewl ,

Ya, it’s probably more correct to say any concerns are overstated. And I probably didn’t help by saying “difficult”. It’s not difficult, just not as simple as eating any meat. And like I mentioned, as long as you’re varying your protein sources, you will be fine.

zeekaran ,

I know plenty of vegans and they’re all healthier than average. I don’t know any who have had issues with nutrition.

lightnsfw ,

I have a hard time hitting my protein goal and maintaining correct macros even with meat. I have looked at vegetarian options and I don’t see how anyone could do it without just slamming multiple protein shakes a day. Which would destroy my digestive system. I’d probably be ok when I’m not bulking but I’d have to do a ton of research and basically forget about fast food options. If someone could lay out a vegetarian diet for me that would work I’d be more than happy to give it a shot but I don’t have time to make that effort myself.

dojan ,
@dojan@lemmy.world avatar

As a life-long vegetarian, this has been my experience as well.

BruceTwarzen ,

My dad always acts like i'm close to dying because i'm vegan. I work out every day, he eats meat 3 times a day and even his vegetables are unhealthy as fuck. He's so overweight that getting into his car is super exhausting. Pretty weird if someone like that gives you tips on how to eat right.

ZagamTheVile ,

Yeah. I try not to mention it to people if I can avoid it. I work construction and am surrounded by manly men tring to out man each other. I had one guy offer me bear jerkey and got bent out of shape when I declined. He wouldn’t stop. He just kept on me about why I didn’t eat meat. After about an hour of him asking again and again why I don’t eat meat I said “meat’s another word for dick and eating dick is gay”. As problematic as it was, it worked.

It never cases to amaze me that a 250pound dude with a 40oz soda in one hand and a mouthfull of gas station pizza thinks he has the responsibility to lecture me about nutrition.

illi ,

“meat’s another word for dick and eating dick is gay”. As problematic as it was, it worked.

It’s both sad and hillarious that this worked. I wonder if you created a new vegetarian as well

ZagamTheVile ,

Probably not but I like to think it’s created a feedback loop going on in his head endlessly. “Meat is manly. Meat is dick.'”

illi ,

We need to take the small victories

bjoern_tantau ,
@bjoern_tantau@swg-empire.de avatar

I did get offended when, after a very successful date, I went to a shawarma place with her and we both had a super awesome shawarma with lots of meat. For the next date I made some pizza rolls with salami and she confessed that she actually doesn’t eat meat.

I still tease her about that when I meet her nowadays.

Mastengwe ,

Same works in reverse, far more often than you think.

NoIWontPickAName ,

Just tell them you have alpha-gal, then they’ll leave you alone easier

Stupidmanager ,

I’m what I call “mostly vegetarian“ which means that I choose to not have meat, but will eat small portions on occasion. And boy does that just piss off people like no other. Worse is I get it from both sides, to either commit in full or just give in to my natural instincts and consume more red meat.

Sometimes I just want a salad. Sometimes I want some bacon crumbles on that salad. Sometimes I want 3oz of fish with a plate of veggies. But what I can tell you is 3/4 of my plate will have healthy veggies or fruit.

BrikoX ,
@BrikoX@lemmy.zip avatar

From what I have seen, it more stems from the activism vegans are engaged in more than the actual veganism.

CalciumDeficiency OP ,

I think there’s nothing wrong with explaining your ideas and why you believe them to those willing to listen, but I can see why pushy activism for any cause can get annoying quickly. There are often Jehovah’s witnesses outside my local supermarket, for example, but they only give you a pamphlet if you specifically approach them

themeatbridge ,

It’s not just pushy, it’s judgemental and vitriolic

Oh, you eat meat, murderer? Your shoes are made from the skins of defenseless creatures. The sugar you’re so callously adding to your coffee was processed with ground-up bones, you unredeemable monster.

Even the arguments for veganism that aren’t built on animal cruelty still take on an air of moral superiority. Don’t you care about the planet and future generations? How dare you trade carbon emissions for the temporary comfort of a bacon cheeseburger!

The vegan movement has always been associated with anger and contempt, even if it is justified.

BearOfaTime , (edited )

And it’s history stems from religious ideology.

Edit: oh you downvoters. Go look it up. A woman had a vision from God that said “don’t eat things with faces”. Dead serious - that’s where it started.

All the sciencey justifications today are post-hoc rationalization.

Inui ,

The current vegan movement has nothing to do with religion, except at the individual level. You’re conflating being vegan for religious reasons with being one for secular moral reasons. Modern vegans came from a split in vegetarian activist groups because too many vegetarians weren’t willing to criticize the dairy industry and its practices.

Feyd ,

In my experience it’s usually more like: Them: here have some of this meat thing Me: No thanks Them: why not it’s really good try some Me: i don’t eat meat Them: but why? Me: to reduce animal cruelty and environmental harm Them: wow how dare you be so judgy

I’m not really sure how I’m supposed to not offend this type of person in this situation and frankly I don’t think it’s my fault or my problem they’re offended. My theory is that that agree with my reasons but rather than change or live with the cognitive dissonance they just lash out at anyone that reminds them they could be living more ethically even if they basically MAKE them say it.

Blaming vegans for that is bullshit, frankly

Pronell ,

That isn’t the type of behavior that I think most find annoying but I’m sorry that you get that reaction at all.

I think many people are so annoyed with feeling they are attacked for eating meat (and I do eat meat) that when that button gets pressed the anger just rises up.

For me I get a little true guilt. I know I’m not helping in the best possible ways that I can, all the time. I’m not perfect and won’t ever pretend that I am, and I also haven’t given up on getting better. When I go a day without eating meat, I congratulate myself. With a burger. (No, not really.)

fishos ,
@fishos@lemmy.world avatar

Some people see “to reduce animal cruelty” as judgy because that’s just how nature is. The moral superiority comes from you acting like you’re somehow above everyone and everything else. It’s entirely in your wording and the implications that if you eat meat, you enjoy animal suffering vs seeing it as a natural outcome of nature.

Feyd ,
  1. This is completely besides the point, but I personally view factory farming as different than what happens in nature.
  2. This is also beside the point, but you are making some wild logical leaps here. The fact that I personally don’t want to support factory farming because I think it is cruel in no way means that I think other people “enjoy animal suffering” and assuming that is arbitrarily assigning thoughts I have never had to me.
  3. None of the above is really relevant because I should be allowed to go about my day without justifying my dietary choices just as people that eat meat should.
themeatbridge ,

Look, you don’t deserve the treatment you’ve described. Everyone here agrees with you on that.

The person you were replying to was trying to explain why what you said might be interpreted as judgemental, even if that’s not how you meant it (and we all believe you, even if the people you’re talking about don’t).

I think the last line sums it up. You don’t eat meat, and that’s the only explanation you owe anyone.

However, I know that when I’m providing a meal and I learn someone doesn’t eat meat, I always ask follow up questions because maybe I cooked the 1rice with chicken stock, or maybe the vegetables were sauteed in butter. If it is a moral choice, I would appreciate a heads up so I can prepare a meal everyone can enjoy. I’m not irritated by the request, because that’s the whole reason why you cook food for friends. If it’s a healthy choice, you might still eat some of the brown rice, or maybe I sub oil for butter. Those are changes I can make on the fly.

I know I’ve probably unintentionally offended some vegans by probing for more answers. And I’ve met some vegans who are every bit as judgemental as you’ve been assumed to be. We could all do a little bit better at understanding each other.

illi ,

I’d not see it as judgemental, just trying to inform. These days meatcis just a commodity, completely disasociated from the animals it comes from and without second thougt on how those animals are treated. If I go into detail like this, it’s really just to get the info out there in a casual way. The person in question might ignore it, or may think about it. I also needed nudges like this to realize the moral issue and I’m happy for every one of them. I don’t really go into detail much, and rarely inform someone about my preferences. But will answer truthfuly when asked

If someone chooses to ignore ot just not see the suffering behind eating meat in this day and age, it is frustrating though to say the least. Especially if simply reducing the meat intake and being more selective about the source of the meat comes a long way. But I get why it is so tough, as I’m not a saint myself and while I reduce meat most of the time, I still have some occasionally even if I feel bad about it.

Mastengwe ,

Well said.

spankinspinach ,

In my experience, your first sentence sums it up nicely.

They assume a moral high ground because they’ve adopted a diet that is generally deemed healthier and better for the environment (I don’t always agree with this).

But unless they’re also doing all the things we could all do better (e.g. not buying new, not upgrading the the latest and greatest, not taking 40 minute showers, not eating out every second day), they’re only somewhat less guilty of environmental damage than the average person, but they’re taking a generally undeserved “holier than thou” position and then shoving it down your throat. This isn’t everyone, and I don’t really care what you eat, but these are the vegans that get under my skin.

Inui ,

If I tell you that I bike to work, walk to the grocery store, buy most of my products used, and don’t have an Amazon account, will you listen to me?

NoIWontPickAName ,

It would be someone being less of a hypocrite so you would not be seen as as annoying as the other option

NoIWontPickAName ,

Also I would always listen to you, I may not agree or take your advice, but I will listen to you

themeatbridge ,

Eh, I can see it both ways. Like, nobody is, or can be, perfect. That doesn’t mean they don’t have a valid moral argument for the good choices they make. They’re trying to be a better person, and I think it’s fair to help other people recognize the poor decisions they are making. Climate change especially affects all of us.

On the other hand, you’re 100% correct. Nobody can lay exclusive claim to the high ground, so anybody acting superior is probably an asshole.

FinishingDutch , (edited )
@FinishingDutch@lemmy.world avatar

There’s also the ‘guilt by association’. Look at organisations like PETA: they even complained about things like the treatment of entirely fictional animals in video games, like Palworld. Basically, you can’t even argue that ‘they look like real animals so it encourages real-world mistreatment’ like they usually do.

That does not make you look particularly sane. I’m sure they do good work as well, but that sort of thing isn’t helping their cause.

IronKrill ,

Saying PETA is representative of vegans is rather like using Antifa as an example of liberals, or Info Wars for conservatives.

FinishingDutch ,
@FinishingDutch@lemmy.world avatar

Which is exactly what everyone does. At least in the US. And every side is equally wrong about it.

The loudest voices always draw the most attention. And I don’t know any other vegan voice that’s as loud as PETA’s. That’s kind of the problem.

acockworkorange ,

PETA might do something good by accident. They kill 60-70% of the pets they receive for donation, so I guess the lucky 1/3 that don’t get the ax are a good thing.

NoIWontPickAName ,

PETA was giving away free coloring books one time so I decided to order some for my kids thinking it would be good for them to hear from all sides.

One of the pictures was three people standing over a turkey dinner with the most horrific caricatures you can think of absolutely salivating over how juicy the turkey was going to be.

I shit you not.

I had to trash the sons of bitches.

Really killed that group for me, I always that people were exaggerating about them and how bad they are.

They killed that little piece of me.

Lileath ,
@Lileath@lemmy.blahaj.zone avatar

I will go and shoot the next dog I see. You won’t judge me for that, right?

themeatbridge ,

Yes, good example. It is precisely that sort of judgemental strawman bullshit that gives vegans a bad rep.

AnyOldName3 ,
@AnyOldName3@lemmy.world avatar

The UK has a high rate of veganism, and part of that is attributed to the fact that the major vegetarian and vegan organisations in the UK generally recommend persuading people by offering them delicious food that is also vegetarian/vegan and saying it’s more ethical. On the other hand, the equivalent organisations in the US tend to lean more towards recommending telling people that eating animal products is unethical, and it’s difficult to accuse someone of unethical behaviour without being insulting. It also doesn’t help that multibillion-dollar organisations have run successful smear campaigns against groups like PETA - everyone’s heard of the time they took someone’s pet dog and killed it, but most aren’t aware that it happened once and gets reported on as if it’s news every few months, or that it was an accident as the dog’s collar had come off and it was with a group of strays, and got muddled with another dog, so was put down weeks earlier than it was supposed to be, bypassing the waiting period they had specifically to avoid this kind of mistake.

NoIWontPickAName ,

Check my comment history about 3 posts back to see my interaction with peta

Confused_Emus , (edited )

PETA has a lot more fucked up behavior under its belt than the one time they “accidentally” euthanized a dog they stole from someone, and much of their bad behavior has been very much maliciously intentional. Here just a small sample.

ETA: A few more, because why the hell not? Fuck PETA.

AnyOldName3 ,
@AnyOldName3@lemmy.world avatar

It doesn’t strengthen your point to link Fox News and the literal website for the smear campaign I mentioned: www.sourcewatch.org/index.php?title=PETA_Kills_An…

As for PETA putting down lots of animals, that’s no secret. It’s really easy to get people to donate to a no-kill animal shelter, so there are lots of them. However, when you’re a no-kill animal shelter, and you’re full of animals you can’t kill, or are asked to take an animal that can’t be ethically be treated with anything other than euthanasia, you have to turn the animal down, and it ends up wherever will take it. Usually, that ends up being a PETA-run shelter. When a PETA-run shelter is being given all the rejects from everywhere else, it’s obviously going to end up putting lots of animals down. It’d be better for PR if they didn’t, but less ethical, and they prioritise the ethics above the PR.

If you look at one of your more reliable sources, the Snopes article, it backs up what I’m saying, and not what you’re saying. It corroborates the story from my original post, lists another incident where PETA staff were accused but not convicted, and then discusses that they put down a lot of animals in their shelters, and how it includes healthy animals. The only controversy there is the definition of adoptable - a healthy stray kitten is theoretically adoptable, but if you get ten times as many kittens in a week as you do people wanting to adopt a kitten, 90% of them won’t get adopted, and your shelter will get quickly overcrowded if you insist on ignoring that fact.

Confused_Emus ,

I’m no fan of Fox News in general myself, but just because we don’t like them doesn’t make everything they publish false. And yeah, the PETA kills site clearly has an agenda, but their agenda is to try and save animals from PETA’s “love.” There’s sensationalism on that site, but there are also numbers, many of which come from PETA themselves.

I linked the Snopes article knowing that it supported points from both sides. The point in linking that article is that it’s despicable that any of those reports of PETA’s disgusting behavior are true at all.

You know what no-kill shelters try to do when they don’t have space? Coordinate with local foster programs, coordinate with other shelters to see if they have space. There are other alternatives besides taking in a perfectly healthy animal and dropping it in the euthanasia queue.

I’m quite sure there are quite a few things PETA has been accused but not convicted of. When you’re a group of assholes as big as that, you get pretty good at skirting the fine lines of what’s legal and what’s not. They’re hardly the first example of groups like that.

AnyOldName3 ,
@AnyOldName3@lemmy.world avatar

And yeah, the PETA kills site clearly has an agenda, but their agenda is to try and save animals from PETA’s “love.”

Their agenda’s to make PETA look bad so people don’t become vegan or demand higher welfare standards from meat producers, and they can continue selling meat to Americans of such low standards that it would be illegal in the rest of the civilised world.

You know what no-kill shelters try to do when they don’t have space? Coordinate with local foster programs, coordinate with other shelters to see if they have space. There are other alternatives besides taking in a perfectly healthy animal and dropping it in the euthanasia queue.

As I said, they can’t do that once the foster programs and other shelters are full, too, and then overflow into PETA-run shelters because they’re the ones that still have a capability to receive more animals after they’re full. There aren’t enough shelters to keep every animal in good conditions until it’s either adopted or dies of natural causes, and no amount of coordination can magically create extra capacity.

Confused_Emus ,

I’m sure PETA shelters would have more capacity if they didn’t prefer to see an animal dead than a pet. They have significantly higher kill rates than any other shelters, and have made their stance pretty clear that they’re against animals being pets. No wonder they just keep killing them.

Treczoks ,

think there’s nothing wrong with explaining your ideas and why you believe them

That’s actually not the problem. The problem are those who repeat themselves ever louder, even to people who have expressed disinterest.

Wooki ,

Have you heard about our lord and saviour of our sins?

jjjalljs ,

If you accept that there are moral/ethical problems with eating meat (contribution to climate change, health concerns, animals being killed and eaten, whatever), and choose to eat meat anyway, and encounter a vegan, what has to happen?

You can accept that they are making a better choice, but then you have to accept that you’re making a worse choice. Most people are cowards and protect the ego at any cost. Rather than shrugging and saying “yeah, i should eat less meat. Good for you taking the high road”, which requires accepting that you’re not being the best, you can instead grab onto any reasons why no it’s really them that sucks. That’s easier, more comfortable, and doesn’t require any painful introspection or changes.

It’s the same mechanism when people get mad at cyclists, pedestrians, people who go to the gym, people who don’t shop at Walmart, whatever. They’re doing something that makes you feel bad in comparison. Most people are terrible at that and will lash out instead of doing anything productive.

Alternatively, or maybe additionally, people are really tribal, and once they adopt the idea that vegans (or cyclists, or people driving small cars, or people wearing sandals, whatever) are in the outgroup, then they enjoy being hostile to them.

People are ego driven emotional morons. All of us. Me, too. It’s terrible.

Treczoks ,

You can accept that they are making a better choice,

That’s exactly where it starts. You simply assume that vegans are the better people. And then you preach. That’s exactly what people dislike in vegans and similar people.

Obonga ,

No. It is one better choice. Does not say shit about the millions of other choices we do.

Treczoks ,

Thank you for preaching and proving my and others point.

Obonga ,

If the fact bothers you, maybe you should refrain from discussions on this topic. Or tell me why it is not a “better choice”.

Croquette ,

If we remove the ethic argument from the conversation, veganism is definitely a better choice for the planet, factually.

People have a hard time detaching their ego from the issue at hand. Since veganism is better for the planet, they are “better” in that specific area of their life.

But it doesn’t mean that vegans are better people than non-vegans, because we don’t know what else they do.

Eat meat if you want. I do. But I don’t feel personally attacked because vegans are right about the carbon footprint of meat, and they preach for it.

IamtheMorgz ,

That choice is steeped in privilege though, and I think it’s worth acknowledging that. Food choices are just something we shouldn’t be judging other people on, regardless of what those choices are. “Fed is best” applies through all stages of life.

Croquette ,

You are right, but we use this privilege to eat more meat instead of more vegetables. So my point still stands.

And even then, meat is way pricier than vegetables, so the privilege argument is shaky.

But as I said, assume the fact that you eat meat and that it is more damageable for the environment and after that, if you are in a position where you can afford to eat less or no meat, do it if you feel like it.

IamtheMorgz ,

Some people do, but it’s not as easy as “just eat better” for everyone. If we were arguing about how people aren’t eating healthy I think very few people would be frame it as just a choice.

Cheap meat, fast food (few if any veggie options, and basically no vegan ones) - these are staples of the poor. There’s a limit to how much rice and beans anyone wants to eat, especially when just getting a couple pounds of ground beef is a luxury. I don’t think it’s right to shame people for taking the beef. Or judging them for taking it.

I think if vegans want to change the world they should be campaigning against poor practices in the industry, not attacking the guy who just worked 16 hours at a minimum wage job and is choosing to grab a mcdouble rather than going home to cook a beyond burger. Is one better for the environment and world? Sure. But it’s not that guy’s fault the system is rigged in favor of the mcdouble, and reminding him of the fact that he’s making the world worse isn’t furthering the goal of making the world better.

Croquette ,

I understand your point and I agree. But a lot of privileged people (i’m included in that) should definitely consume less meat or none at all.

This is a strange argument that the problem with vegans is that they don’t do enough for the poor?

I haven’t seen any vegans protesting in a 7/11. It’s usually high end butcher or restaurants.

So again, I agree with what you say, but it doesn’t make sense in the current frame of discussion.

jjjalljs ,

“Making a better choice” doesn’t “make you a better person”, necessarily.

And also like I said in my post, just accept that you’re not always going to be a perfect person. None of us are. You don’t have to get mad at anyone else for that.

cmhe ,

You can accept that they are making a better choice, but then you have to accept that you’re making a worse choice.

No, people don’t dislike vegans or vegetarians because of their choices, they dislike them because they lord their, what they think “better” choice over others. And create in- and out- groups via labeling.

Being vegan or vegetarian means that you have to spend more money in the store to buy food, because meat is heavily subsidized compared to vegetarian options. Also, because being vegan/vegetarian is not the default, many products are overpriced.

Another point is that a healthy and varied diet using only vegan or vegetarian food doesn’t come so natural, so you have to research this more, which means you have to spend time, which again is a commodity.

So it is not just about good or bad, it is also about privilege and class. So people should not go around making statements about other people making “worse” choices.

UckyBon ,

Rice and beans are staples in poor countries. Meat is for the rich.

cmhe , (edited )

Yes. Meat is expensive, and should be expensive.

However meat replacement products cost even more, but they should be cheaper, because they are cheaper to produce.

Diary free ice cream is more expensive. Cow milk is cheaper than oat milk.

This isn’t just about not eating meat or animal products, this is the whole “vegan lifestyle” food that is unreasonable more expensive.

Like buying more expensive vegan salt or sugar instead of normal one.

And if you don’t do that, you are not a “true vegan™”. And the vegan police will come and get you!

“Oh, the pepper you just ate was fertilized by pig manure, sorry you aren’t vegan anymore. You should have bought the more expensive vegan pepper.”

Kacarott ,

I’m not sure why you are making up imaginary arguments. Have you ever heard anyone ever accuse someone else of “not being vegan anymore” because they ate a non vegan product? I know quite a few vegans, I try to be vegan myself (but quite often cave, cheese is delicious), and all the vegans I know would be simply thrilled to know that someone was making an effort at all. Literally no one cares if you aren’t 100% vegan, basically no one is anyway. But if you decide once a week to eat a vegan meal instead of a steak, great!! That’s still helping the planet, better for the animals, etc.

But making up these ridiculous vegan cliches doesn’t help anyone, it just makes more people annoyed at each other.

UckyBon ,

You don’t need to buy luxury items to eat healthy vegetables. Such a weird defense.

IamtheMorgz ,

The fact that you just think people should live more poorly and with less nutrition if they can’t afford the fru fru stuff is really disturbing.

I’ve been rive and beans only poor before. It sucked a lot. And on the rare occasion I could get some meat or cheese in my diet I definitely wasn’t in a position to be worried about which choice was “worse”. I just wanted some freaking variety. I should be able to have that. Everyone should.

Donate to your local food bank!

UckyBon ,

I just stated a fact. Not what I think nor what others should do. I do however think you underestimate how healthy vegetables are. I never said people should only eat rice and beans.

Now go and enjoy your flesh, because otherwise there won’t be variety (that sounds really dumb btw).

gmtom ,

Being vegan or vegetarian means that you have to spend more money in the store to buy food

no it doesnt? Im 1,000% willing to bet youve never been vegan before. Plant based diets are way cheaper, just go to your local store and look at eh price for a kilo of carrots or potatoes vs a a kilo of chicken.

Another point is that a healthy and varied diet using only vegan or vegetarian food doesn’t come so natural, so you have to research this more, which means you have to spend time, which again is a commodity.

also complete bullshit.

grrgyle ,

TIL beans are expensive and privileged.

Pardon my flippant remark. I couldn’t help myself. I appreciate you weighing in on this thread.

I can appreciate how avoiding animal products can seem challenging if you have no direct examples to refer to, but it’s really not. There are literally entire ethnic groups that live cradle to grave without eating meat.

Like for me growing up poor, a defacto vegetarian diet was the norm for us, so it’s just how I eat 90% of the time. Likewise, if you grew up around people who know about nutrition, you get used to planning your meals without relying on meat/dairy/etc to fill in the gaps.

I do believe it’s more ethical to avoid meat entirely, even though I myself don’t. I just try my best to keep it lower impact.

jjjalljs ,

No, people don’t dislike vegans or vegetarians because of their choices, they dislike them because they lord their, what they think “better” choice over others.

I’m not sure we agree on what “lording over” is. Like if someone says “Sorry, I can’t eat that, I’m vegan” is that lording it over you? Pretty much every vegan I’ve encountered has been polite, and at about the level of someone with a food allergy. Sometimes they check the ingredients label.

Wooki ,

Your first sentence answers the actual question.

Well…aCtUAllY

hroderic ,

Do-gooder derogationBasically, some people perceive others’ moral choices as criticism or as some kind of bragging.

DessertStorms , (edited )
@DessertStorms@kbin.social avatar

And some just see those who militantly focus on attacking fellow individuals instead of the systems that are actually to blame (but which they otherwise support and/or benefit from, like capitalism, racism, and ableism) counterproductive, annoying, and hypocritical.

The militant vegans I have come across, and being vegan myself, it's a lot, far too many (E: to the point I actively avoid vegan spaces), are almost exclusively drowning in so much privilege, they can't see how ridiculous they're being in their bizarre militancy of policing other people's plates instead of the actual industries abusing animals (and humans, who these vegans rarely to never pay any thought to, not out loud or in their actions, anyway).

(before I even hit send: if you feel personally attacked by my comment - that's a sign for you to think about it with yourself and ideally do something about it, not try and prove me wrong, inevitably proving me 100% right)

IamtheMorgz ,

It’s the privilege thing that gets me every time. Not everyone can participate in your exclusive food club and be healthy and fulfilled. Let people do the best they can with what they have.

ediculous ,

I wonder if being within those circles, you’ve been exposed to certain ugliness on a more intimate level; with people who feel comfortable enough in their in-group to express their more radical thoughts. Anecdotally, I’ve known a few vegans but have never been lectured nor had views pushed on me.

Hell, the only time I ever hear about the radical, pushy vegan is when people complain about them. On the flip side, I’ve been exposed to meat eaters who seem to get offended when someone mentions the concept of veganism, as if someone else not eating animal products is somehow a trigger for them.

Again, all anecdotes here, I’m just figuring one’s exposure to the vocal minorities on either side of the conversation is where you run into the problems.

qevlarr , (edited )
@qevlarr@lemmy.world avatar

Fascinating! Thank you for this article. It exactly describes what’s happening: “oh, you think you’re better than us? I’ll have another steak!”

anakin78z ,
@anakin78z@lemmy.world avatar

This is really easy to test in fairly small social groups. The next time you’re in a group ordering pizza, say you want cheese, because you don’t eat meat. Now watch everyone else order, or change their order to, double meat supreme with bacon. It’s almost like they can’t help themselves. It’s hilarious how easy you can change other people’s behavior.

illi ,

This is by far the most frustrating thing

pearable ,

There’s another factor here. People who are vegan, sober, poly, don’t drive, and any number of choices are breaking societal norms. Most people don’t even think about these things as choices. They do the default. Realizing that there’s a choice, and that this person decided not to do the default, puts people off. It makes them uncomfortable. They begin to question things they’ve never had to evaluate.

Nougat ,

It's a first world hill to die on, and many of the people who espouse veganism are only able to do so because of their own privilege.

It's a combination of smugness and "I'm better than you" and the lack of awareness that everyone had and continues to benefit from a world that has always used animal products. The Industrial Revolution basically ran on steam engines and leather belts, for example.

I have absolutely no problem with the idea that using fewer animal products and eating less meat is a good idea. I also recognize that feeding the world's growing population is probably going to involve insects being more widely used as a food source.

jeffw ,

What privilege? Meat is the most expensive food out there. Eating rice and beans isn’t really showing privilege

r4venw ,
@r4venw@kbin.social avatar

Maybe they mean privilege wrt education? As i understand it, it takes a non-zero amount of knowledge about nutrition to substitute meat completely and not be deficient in something. But I'm a life-long omnivore so I may be wrong

nature_man ,

There’s also the privilege of living in a location where vegan alternatives are readily and frequently available, vast swaths of the US are in what’s known as “food deserts”, locations where “residents’ access to affordable, healthy food options (especially fresh fruits and vegetables) is restricted or nonexistent due to the absence of grocery stores within convenient traveling distance” (foodispower.org/access-health/food-deserts/) these locations also tend to have high obesity or diabetes rates due to the fact that the only food easily and cheaply available is high in sugar. Add in things like the increased price for even simple vegan foods (like rice and beans) and you might be starting to see the picture, as much as some people would LIKE to be vegan it is literally not possible for them without either taking on substantial additional costs or completely upending their life.

A lot of the reason people who are otherwise pro-vegan (like myself) tend to dislike online vegans is that they will, consistently and smugly, while in a location and economic position where its easier to get vegan options, berate people for eating animal products without ever considering the possibility that its MUCH harder to get non-animal product based foods in certain areas

Inui ,

A lot of people online will also point to food deserts in other parts of the country as a reason they, living within 20 minutes of 5 different grocery stores, personally won’t make any changes.

nature_man ,

Food deserts aren’t just places where there aren’t grocery stores, they also include places where there are abundant stores but fruits, veggies, and other vegan or healthy options cost drastically more, for example, there are parts of New York City considered to be food deserts because all the healthy options are too expensive for someone on a low income to reliably afford, forcing them to go for unhealthy, but cheaper options. This is something that, to the credit of whoever is in charge of the NYC health department, the city has been working on solving, doing things such as incentivizing “Green Carts”, food carts with affordable healthy options like vegetables and fruits.

Also consider, you don’t know too much about that person’s life, maybe they live in a non-food desert location but have to travel frequently via car through food deserts, maybe they have to move a food desert in the future, maybe they have a dietary restriction preventing them from accessing several of those healthy vegan options, so they have to supplement their diet by using animal products.

Also, in my experience, most ‘anti-vegans’ tend to have no idea what a food desert is, the normal excuse is nutrients or iron intake, most of the non-vegans I’ve talked to that even know about food deserts have either tried to go vegan and found it too hard to do while also keeping up with their health and finances or work in an industry directly combating food deserts, just something to consider.

Bonehead ,

Those aren't the vegans that most people are talking about. Being poor and having to eat vegan is different from being vegan because you want to stand out from everyone else with your vegan black bean soy burger with vegan cheese on a vegan sprouted whole wheat bun. If you can afford the overpriced "vegan" versions of typically non-vegan foods, and complain about your struggles being vegan, that's privilege.

When you're poor, you don't advertise the fact that you're eating vegan. You just make rice and beans because it's the absolute cheapest food available. You'll take meat and non-vegan when it's available. But at the very least, you'll survive on rice and beans. It's generally not something that people are proud of.

Passerby6497 , (edited )

You just make rice and beans because it’s the absolute cheapest food available. You’ll take meat and non-vegan when it’s available. But at the very least, you’ll survive on rice and beans.

This. When I was poor af and regularly using the food bank they’d give venison periodically, and that was my favorite part of the boxes. That and this rice and seasoning meals went together amazingly and would last me like a week of meals.

Inui ,

You’re making a big assumption here by saying that all vegans are buying vegan substitutes like Beyond Burgers. And I mean very big, since all the vegans I know don’t eat that stuff or buy it occasionally as a treat, or at a restaurant. Most of my meals are simple with rice, noodles, curry paste, and some vegetables. They can even be frozen or canned to reduce preparation time.

NoIWontPickAName ,

They explicitly said that he was only judging the people only being vegan to be vegan so they could act like that

Inui ,

Which is a non-existent strawman.

NoIWontPickAName ,

You’re going to have to quote me what I said, we are too far into the thread.

I don’t doubt what you said, I just don’t know what I said. lol

Burn_The_Right ,

The implication is that this is common. I don’t think even one vegan is vegan just to show off some kind of privelege. This is just a childish and unrealistic caricature that does not exist in reality.

Bonehead ,

I didn't say that. I said if you're buying the vegan substitutes and advertising that fact, that makes you privileged. I've seen it many times. There are even some in this post. People that eat vegan because they have limited choices don't advertise it. People that want to feel superior over others will express how much of a vegan they are.

Inui ,

People aren’t vegan through limited choice. It’s a conscious decision. You might eat a plant-based diet because you can’t afford meat, but that doesn’t make you the same as someone who is choosing not to eat meat on purpose. You’re comparing someone who wants to be vegan with someone who doesn’t and saying one is superior/less annoying. They’re two different people.

Bonehead ,

Congratulations, you're finally getting it. They are two different people. There are people that eat vegan because they have no choice. Those people are not privileged. There are people that call themselves vegan and make sure everyone knows they are vegan. Those are the vegans the original comment was talking about, which someone took offense to. That's why I pointed out the difference.

It took a little effort, but at least you got there.

Inui ,

Am I privileged if I can afford to eat Beyond Burgers every night but I eat rice and beans instead? What if I can’t afford those things, still eat rice and beans, but I tell people I’m vegan to avoid awkward social interactions? You’re making up a caricature of vegans in your head, comparing them to poor people who happen to not be able to afford meat, and then saying the latter is somehow a better person.

The option you presented is a poor non-vegan person vs. a wealthier vegan person. There are people in between these two things.

Bonehead ,

What if I can’t afford those things, still eat rice and beans, but I tell people I’m vegan to avoid awkward social interactions?

But would you? Would you really turn down free food simply because you're vegan? Would you really tell people you're vegan to avoid an "awkward social interaction" when offered free food? If so, that makes you privileged. Being able to pick and choose food makes you privileged, whether it's vegan or not. That's the difference.

Inui ,

Yes and yes because I’ve been there.

Everyone is more privileged than someone. It’s obviously more privileged to be able to eat fresh vegetables vs. people having to eat bark in occupied countries. But most serious vegans will also tell you that if you’re on a desert island and your only way to survive is to kill and eat a pig (as ridiculous as the scenario is), you should do it, because we acknowledge self-preservation is real and valid.

Bonehead ,

Wow...so you've been so poor that you can only afford rice and beans, and you've been offered free food that you turned down because it wasn't vegan? Really? See, that's the kind of smugness OP was talking about. You put your veganism above securing food, and you're proud of it. You willingly sacrificed your self-preservation for your principles. And now you're advertising it.

Inui ,

You literally asked me the question and are now chastising me for my answer. This is the “how do you know someone is vegan” joke. I pointed out self-preservation to point out that vegans don’t go around attacking poor people and don’t expect people to keep their principles in those situations. I made a choice I don’t expect other people to make. I point my criticisms at the people I know in real life who shop at the exact same stores I do and make similar amounts of money, but still use poor people as an excuse not to change their own behavior.

Bonehead ,

You literally asked me the question and are now chastising me for my answer.

Yes, because you claim to be poor yet still call being vegan a lifestyle choice. And you chastise others in your position for not making that choice. Poor people don't get to make those choices. Poor people do whatever it takes to survive. Poor people live on that desert island every single day and have to make difficult decisions. Poor take whatever they can get and are greatful for it. Poor people don't have the privilege to turn down food.

Maybe begin to recognize your own privilege before telling other people what to do.

Inui ,

I think you are a deeply unserious person who idolizes poverty by saying vegans making the choice are bad and people forced into are good. I also think, based on this conversation, that you hold no strong convictions that can’t be shaken out of you with a little bit of hardship and can’t contextualize any amount of self-sacrifice because of your obsession with veganism being a privileged position. I already told you that people who have no other option are not a target of criticism, but people like you who who use others as a scapegoat certainly are. I’m blocking you now though because this is going nowhere.

Bonehead ,

I pointed out self-preservation to point out that vegans don’t go around attacking poor people and don’t expect people to keep their principles in those situations. I made a choice I don’t expect other people to make.

Then literally the very next sentence, you contradict yourself.

I point my criticisms at the people I know in real life who shop at the exact same stores I do and make similar amounts of money, but still use poor people as an excuse not to change their own behavior.

You claim to be poor, claim to not attack people who are poor, then chastise people who are poor for not making the same choices that you do. You are a hypocrite. Have a nice day.

Nougat ,

Vegan: no animal products. No butter, no eggs, having to be well-informed (as others have stated) and know about the content of every bit of everything you buy, and making choices on that basis instead of on cost.

Even then, how many of the products you buy and use every day have depended on animal products for their manufacture? I'm willing to bet that a fair amount of human labor consumes and uses animal products to sustain themselves, even if there are no animal products in the thing you're buying. I don't think it's fair to compartmentalize that away from purchasing decisions. The people who put your flat pack MDF furniture in a box, did they have a chicken sandwich on their lunch break? The people who are paving the roads and maintain the rails on which the products you ultimately buy, are they wearing leather boots?

Everyone depends, to some degree or another, on the use of animal products, either as food or for some other purpose. Even vegans.

Edit: Like I said above, reducing dependence on animal products is probably a good idea, but people who believe they have eliminated their dependence on animal products are patting themselves on the back for something they simply cannot accomplish.

Bipta ,

The people who put your flat pack MDF furniture in a box, did they have a chicken sandwich on their lunch break?

Congratulations on synthesizing truly the dumbest argument I have ever seen in my entire life.

andyburke ,
@andyburke@fedia.io avatar

Can you explain what's wrong with this argument? As a relatively disinterested observer it seems reasonable to me.

Buffalox , (edited )

Being Vegan is a choice for yourself so it’s a fallacy to argue that others are not Vegan, and saying it doesn’t help to try to make a difference unless everybody does it is also a fallacy.
So the argument is based on no less than 2 obvious fallacies. This should be pretty obvious, so question is if you are just a troll?

andyburke ,
@andyburke@fedia.io avatar

I'll say that this reaction does nothing to make me think you are approaching this with any objectivity.

The argument, to me, seems to be that it's impossible in the modern world as things stand to actually totally avoid animal products. That would seem like an issue that Veganism should be concerned with.

I see your point, I think, about it being an individual choice. But though I have heard of things like vegan shoes, I can see how saying those are vegan when you may not control all the inputs seems problematic.

Regardless, your response was so unpleasant that I don't think I'm much interested in continuing.

Buffalox ,

Yeah no reason to go to the moon if we can’t visit other planets yet. That’s the kind of logic you are arguing.
The vegan argument is to not contribute to animal suffering, you can’t control what other people do.
And avoiding suffering doesn’t help because there will still be suffering is about as stupid as it gets.

Inui ,

Veganism has never been about avoiding all animal products 100%. Only as far as possible.

To put it another way, would you feel responsible if the person who installed your solar panels drove an oversized truck in their personal life?

Inui ,

Because its not within any one vegans control whether a random factory worker has chicken for lunch. If there were businesses that only hired vegans and sold vegan products (there are, but very few), then vegans would obviously be buying things from there instead. If someone who isn’t vegan themselves uses this impossible purity test as an excuse not to make changes themselves, then they weren’t genuine about making any attempt in the first place.

Nougat ,

If you're okay with compartmentalizing that out of the production of goods and services you use, that's a you thing.

Inui ,

Why is it reasonable to expect me to have any control over what a factory worker is eating? There are entirely vegan businesses, but its setting up a ridiculous goal post to claim vegans are somehow hypocritical by not having a 100% vegan production chain as a consumer, which is literally impossible in the current world. If we could, we absolutely would. But if you want to argue that vegans should handcraft and grow literally everything they use as an excuse not make any changes yourself, I don’t know what to say.

Tywele ,

Veganism is not about completely eliminating every use of animal products no matter what. It’s about reducing animal suffering and their exploitation as long as it’s possible and practicable.

“Veganism is a philosophy and way of living which seeks to exclude—as far as is possible and practicable—all forms of exploitation of, and cruelty to, animals for food, clothing or any other purpose; and by extension, promotes the development and use of animal-free alternatives for the benefit of animals, humans and the environment. In dietary terms it denotes the practice of dispensing with all products derived wholly or partly from animals.”

From www.vegansociety.com/…/definition-veganism

Mostly_Gristle ,

The privilege is being able to choose to eat that way out of a sense of morality or fashion rather for the reason that it’s literally all there is to eat. The privilege is being able to turn your nose up at perfectly edible food for no other reason than that it’s got a bit of egg, honey, or butter in it without having to worry about starving to death. The privilege is also having access to such an abundance and variety of food that you can maintain a vegan diet year round and not have to fear that you won’t meet all the calorie, protein, and vitamin requirements you need to stay alive and healthy while much of the world is in a constant struggle to scrape together enough calories of any kind to stay alive.

Nougat ,

Thank you for saying this in a way I was unable to muster.

businessfish ,
@businessfish@lemmy.blahaj.zone avatar

that’s great, but most vegans you speak to will tell you that we aren’t telling the people who lack the privilege we have to go vegan. we’re asking our neighbors, our bosses, our friends - people in similar if not the very same life circumstances as us - to walk a couple aisles over from where they buy the meat in the grocery store and buy some beans instead.

people love to bring up the privilege thing, but i would argue that it is entirely irrelevant. the entire point of veganism is to do what is reasonably possible and practicable. not to tell people who don’t have the privilege to be so discerning about their diet that they are going to hell or something.

ricecake ,

Well, that’s getting into the difference between veganism and vegetarianism.

That aside, although meat is expensive from a cost and input perspective, it is a very efficient and dense source of calories and protein.
Outside of a first world or industrial agricultural setting, they also have the advantage of being able to convert food sources humans cannot eat into one we can, while to a great degree being able to tend to themselves.
Goats, sheep and chickens can have large numbers managed by a few children with sticks, and also produce non-vegan animal byproducts which can be sold for cash.
This is also before hunting is considered.

While vegetarianism and veganism can be practiced outside of a first world context, and indeed have been for thousands of years, they do come with sacrifices that are significantly easier to make with more money or in a post agricultural region.
Eschewing cheese, eggs and honey is not a difficult thing to do for me if I wanted, but there are places where that’s just leaving good food uneaten, or money unearned.

That’s I believe what’s being referred to when it’s called a privilege.

jeffw ,

Except meat is the least efficient protein source. You need land to grow animal feed, which largely could be used to grow crops to feed humans. You put in like 100 calories to get 1 calorie out.

ricecake ,

Not all land is suitable for crop cultivation, which was the point I was making. In subsistence or low tech farming areas, animals forage on land unsuitable for crop production and eat food unsuitable for human consumption. They’re not eating feed, they’re eating wild weeds and grass we can’t. They’re eating insects, miscellaneous seeds, small plants and whatever they find.

Do you think that if you’re farming to have enough food to feed your family and maybe some leftovers to sell, that you’re going to choose to produce something markedly inefficient in comparison to other options?
Subsistence farmers today aren’t stupid. They’re not wasting 90% of their food because they want a hamburger. They raise goats and chickens because they feed themselves and you let your kid who’s too young to do heavy work follow them with a stick to keep them from wandering off. They raise cattle and donkeys because they can forage, and what they can’t forage is more than made up for by using them to work the land or as beasts of burden.

There’s a reason we domesticated animals. We didn’t just immediately start giving them feed corn and locking them in cages.

It’s a privilege to be able to ignore a readily available source of food.
It’s a privilege to live in a society where we set aside land to grow huge amounts of food to feed our food.
It’s a privilege to not have to know specifically where your food is coming from.

It’s kind of ignorant to think that people who don’t have those privileges must be foolish enough to choose what you think is an inefficient option, and to not consider why they would make that choice.

CalciumDeficiency OP ,

Found it interesting to discover that the money here in the UK is made from animal parts - I think certain notes contain tallow? Definitely seems like it is impossible to fully exclude animal products from your daily life unless you go off the grid and try to be an entirely self sufficient vegan homesteader, which, while extremely difficult and likely dangerous is still an option open to those preaching a vegan lifestyle. Vegans often do not actually practise their philosophy as far as is practical and possible, they all draw the line somewhere so far as how willing they are to sacrifice their comfort and convenience. Like there are no fully vegan cars - the glue is animal based, even if you opt out of a leather interior. Public transport or taking a job you can walk to are alternatives in the UK if you actually cared about benefitting from animals as little as possible, but few vegans will make sacrifices which are actually inconvenient once you get down to the nitty gritty

Imo being a vegan so far as diet and basic lifestyle changes goes is fairly easy for some people (they don’t really like meat to begin with, know how to cook and enjoy it, no real health issues, disposable income) but the real test of how much they actually believe in these ideas is in if they consistently give up more niche forms of animal exploitation wherever they can

rudyharrelson ,

I think "the money is made from animal parts and there are no fully vegan cars so you're arbitrarily picking and choosing when to be vegan" misses the point of ideological veganism. I'm not a vegan, but I believe the goal for ideological vegans (in contrast with those who are vegan for medical reasons) is to minimize suffering and exploitation within reason for the specific reasons you said. No one can be 100% free of animal parts unless they become an off-the-grid self-sustained homestead.

Vegans know that. But most come to the conclusion that just because you can't live 100% animal free doesn't mean you can't try to get to 80% because you want to live your life in a manner you consider morally and ethically consistent with your collective ideologies. You get as close as you can within reason depending on the various constraints of your individual circumstances. "I am still a vegetarian, and I try to be a vegan, but I occasionally cheat. If there's a cheese pizza on the band bus, I might sneak a piece," to quote Weird Al Yankovic.

I'd say most people, including vegans, have more than one goal in life. The "lines in the sand" you're referring to are at the intersection of their goal to minimize suffering and their goal to, say, keep living. Like if a vegan were told by their doctor, "If you don't start eating meat, you'll die from this weird disease," the vegan likely wouldn't be like, "Well, I might as well indulge in eggs and milk and all other animal products now since I can't be 100% vegan" and chow down. They'd probably eat just the amount prescribed by their doctor, because they still don't like eating meat because its origins bother them.

CalciumDeficiency OP ,

I would be totally fine with them drawing their lines wherever if they let other people do the same, but many vegans will take the stance that consuming animal products or meat is always wrong, and never justified, no matter what. Many vegans actually would disagree that it is justified to eat animal products if a doctor recommended it, they’d say there are no nutrients found within those products which can’t be found in plants. They’d also be against eating gifted non-vegan food, many are against feeding cats a nonvegan diet too

Burn_The_Right ,

Um… Ima call bullshit real quick. I don’t think you have ever met a single person who is as you’ve drawn in your cartoon here.

Also, why would a vegan or vegetarian be obligated to eat an animal-based product just because it was a gift? That would be weird as fuck. You don’t eat sausage or cheese? Here’s a sausage and cheese basket. It’s a gift; you have to eat it.

And finally, you are suggesting that vegans kill cats. Cats are obligate carnivores. Vegan cat owners know this. A “vegan cat” will not survive long. Suggesting vegans force cats to be vegans is just an absurd falsehood.

iiGxC ,

Re: vegan cats, they actually can do well on a properly planned/supplemented vegan diet, although more research is needed. If you’re against nutritionally complete vegan kibble, you should be against all kibble

www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC9860667/ The Impact of Vegan Diets on Indicators of Health in Dogs and Cats: A Systematic Review (2023)

“However, there is little evidence of adverse effects arising in dogs and cats on vegan diets. In addition, some of the evidence on adverse health impacts is contradicted in other studies. Additionally, there is some evidence of benefits, particularly arising from guardians’ perceptions of the diets. Given the lack of large population-based studies, a cautious approach is recommended. If guardians wish to implement a vegan diet, it is recommended that commercial foods are used.”

Burn_The_Right ,

TIL

SporeAdic ,

Vegans literally are suggesting solutions to the growing population because in almost every situation, it is much more efficient by land and water use for people to eat plant-based rather than meat. It’s only a “first world hill to die on” if you think poor people can’t eat plants. Sorry but I don’t think this is a very accurate take…

Nougat ,

"Meat from herd mammals" is not at all the sum total of use of animal products. Should we all be eating less beef? Sure, I can get behind that. None? I'm okay with that, too. What about eggs, cheese, butter - and that's only referring to things we eat, not things we use for other purposes.

Wooki ,

“Suggesting”

Proceeds to lecture

Floey ,

People also continue to benefit from the work of slaves in the past and even present. What’s your point? Do you think slavery is ethical? Is someone choosing to avoid products created from slave labour not a more ethical choice?

jacktherippah ,

I don’t hate veganism. It’s a dietary choice and that’s fine. What I hate is vegans. They’re always pushy and judgmental and hateful and sometimes even destructive in their activism. They’re an annoying group of people and I just don’t want to have to deal with them.

GBU_28 ,

Unfortunately this is a topic like abortion.

Vegans and pro life folks see what “others” are doing as murder/evil. So naturally, since they view the behavior as absolutely inappropriate, their discussion of the topic is always very energetic.

I am not advocating for any dietary path, or abortion position in this comment. I’m only describing people’s behavior. Do not misrepresent me.

Tywele ,

Veganism is not a dietary choice it’s a lifestyle choice. Diet is just a big part of it but not the whole thing.

surewhynotlem ,

Then what would we call someone who makes the dietary choice but none of the other lifestyle choices? How would they identify in a restaurant setting? The answer is “vegan”. In the same way that I’m vegetarian but don’t care if I wear leather shoes.

I’m not saying you’re wrong, I’m saying that English lacks the words that would let you be precise. We need a word for people who are vegan in diet, and don’t care to bother the rest of the world about it. That’s why OPs question keeps coming up.

Inui ,

Plant-based is the label for people who follow a vegan diet (plant-based diet) but not a vegan lifestyle like avoiding leather.

surewhynotlem ,

Do people say that in restaurants? I’ve actually never heard it.

Inui ,

Generally, no. You might see it in grocery store labeling as a tactic to signal the food is okay for vegans but to try and not turn off someone who goes “ick” if something specifically says its vegan. But it’s because “vegan” means the same thing in dietary terms. Vegan food is suitable for both vegans and people on plant-based diets, because the other things vegans are concerned with aren’t related to diet so aren’t relevant to the context.

IsThisAnAI ,

No. They are being pendantic.

Tywele ,

The answer is “plant-based diet”

surewhynotlem ,

Do people say that in restaurants? I’ve actually never heard it.

ReiRose ,

I think plant-based is the diet choice and veganism is the lifestyle. I got corrected by someone who was plant based. They didn’t want to associate with vegans

r0ertel ,

I came here to say the thing that you said in better words. I’m on a diet for health reasons that closely resembles the vegan diet, so to keep it simple, I’ll say to people that I’m vegan. Most wait staff don’t care if I ask if a menu item can be made vegan, but family or people I’m dining with will either send hate vibes or go into a long thing about some distant vegan relative who died from malnutrition.

tiefling ,

It’s an issue of the loud ones standing out the most. I can easily say the same thing about many carnivores I know, who moan and complain if there’s as much as a piece of corn in their meal.

(Though disclaimer, I’m not vegan)

Today ,

My son used to tell this joke - little less relevant now that the giant hand sized vapes are less common.

If you vape, you’re vegan, and you’re a musician; which one do you talk about first?

Fal ,
@Fal@yiffit.net avatar

Fucking goats?

Today ,

That wasn’t one of the three, but I’d imagine there may be some crowds where you bring that up early and some where you hold off.

Floey ,

Yes, some people being pushy and judgemental is the real travesty. Not animals having their autonomy and lives taken. I didn’t realize we were supposed to coddle people who we see partaking in grave abuses.

Leviathan ,

I’ve never once in the last decade seen a single vegan post other than recipes. What I do see is constant posts about how “vegans are always throwing it my face/holier than thou”, “I’m gonna eat extra meat because vegans make me feel bad”. I really don’t think vegans are the problem, I think these fools fall for every single piece of beef industry propaganda that comes across their screens.

Cris_Color ,
@Cris_Color@lemmy.world avatar

As much as I’d like that to be true, I’ve definitely still seen vegan spaces online that are intensely alienating and hostile 😅 when I was using reddit, often anything from r/vegan that hit r/all was pretty hostile to anyone who hadn’t already decided it was an important issue for them and made big lifestyle changes accordingly, adopting veganism.

To be totally honest I’ve also never seen any beef industry propaganda encouraging people to hate vegans or resent veganism. If you can think of any examples off the top of your head I’d be curious to see them (if nothing comes to mind thats fine, I don’t intend that as a gotcha)

I’m not vegan (grew up with an eating disorder, not in any position to cut stuff out of my diet or make eating more complicated/difficult, though I have a lot of respect for vegan ethics) but I am a big nerd about open source stuff and linux, and I’ve observed similar things in that space. I have a friend who’s averse to open source stuff because folks have evangelized to her aggressively and with the same sort of superiority complex many folks perceive vegans as having. I’m grateful she’s excited to listen to me talk about the stuff I’m excited about anyway these days, but I’m careful not to make her feel pressured to drop proprietary software she’s using for open alternatives because I want her to feel respected even though she’s not invested in this thing I care about a whole lot

I think when you work hard to adopt a big change for reasons you’re proud of, it’s easy to view yourself as superior for having learned the thing, or made the dietary change

SoNick ,

Back on reddit there were those who had alerts set every time the word came up across the site, then they'd brigade the fitness and health subreddits with their vegan crew to derail any conversations. It was really annoying. No clue if that's still a problem because lolreddit

IamtheMorgz ,

The very first vegan I ever knew talked at me for 10 minutes about how I should go vegan. It was the only 10 minutes I knew her. I was 15, still living with my parents, didn’t have a way to get around, and my family was fairly poor. Oh, and my mother didn’t cook so much as unboxed dinner, because the kitchen was always filthy. I definitely walked away from that interaction feeling like I’d been told I was a terrible human who deserves to suffer by a rude principal. So yes, they definitely exist.

I’ve never met a Vegetarian that wasn’t chill about it, though.

I’m sure there are plenty of chill vegans too, but some of them come off like an annoying televangelist, in my experience.

sparkle , (edited )

The same reason people hate leftists, feminists, trans athletes, “gamer girls”, people on welfare, blacks, etc. An image the right cultivated of the group, out of convenient easily-hateable annoying people in it that they could use to create a generalization/stereotype out of. It’s something that’s able to happen to any group, I could portray any hobbyist or activist in this way the same exact way as these “annoying” groups are portrayed, but the right is particularly willing to just flat out lie, slander, and cheat their way into making countercultural/anti-status-quo groups look as absurd as possible, to the point that the majority of the population falls for it (even those that don’t consider themselves to be conservative).

I’ll make a comparison. Conservative/“anti-sjw” thumbnails often have a picture of some angry-looking rainbow haired woman, usually the same few, in order to be like “look how irrational and crazy these feminazis are, she must hate men so much” and like 4 out of 5 of those times it’s a picture of a woman that was protesting a literal neo-nazi gathering or something, not some sort of radical crazy man-hating feminist. But the internet has conditioned the average person to look at someone like that and immediately think they’re an irrational “feminazi”, and conservatives showing these pictures everywhere and making 100 videos on the same person makes people subconsciously believe they’re rampant and have a massive (and bad) grip on society.

Same kind of thing happens with vegans, you have the same 10 or so internet vegans people use to portray veganism that conditions people to think poorly of the concept “vegan”, and when these influencers are confronted about it they say “I don’t hate veganism, I just hate the annoying vegans” then they go onto Twitter to complain about the vegans and how they’re irrational for not eating meat and their brains must be de-evolving or something. They know what they’re doing, but they can hide behind plausible deniability, and the majority of viewers fall for it.

sebinspace ,

Lot of words to describe cherry-picking, but… yeah. All of that is true.

Not even a vegan. I love meat. But the classic image of the vegan that constantly reminds you of the fact is not at all consistent with my experience with the several in my life…

sparkle ,

I don’t like explicitly stating “cherry-picking”/“strawman”/“ad hominem”/other fallacies because people seem to have a visceral reaction to seeing those words, probably are confused as to what they actually are and are assuming you’re just throwing out random fallacies to conveniently discredit any arguments with no basis, and will refuse to consider the rest of the stuff they read. I think it’s more consumable for the people who really are open to seeing new angles if they have more specific/relatable views to work with, rather than me repeating the same thing they’ve already heard a hundred times without much elaboration. I can’t confirm that though

sebinspace ,

You’re describing the Fallacy Fallacy, being that the implication that the argument is necessarily wrong because a fallacy has been committed. That a fallacy has been committed by the other party should not alone be used as an argument against the point itself.

I.e. you committed a strawman fallacy by stating that all strawmen are made of straw, therefore no strawmen are made of straw

Snowpix , (edited )
@Snowpix@lemmy.ca avatar

I said this on another thread posted by a very antagonistic vegan: Acting holier-than-thou, smug, and hostile is not a good way to convince people of your arguments. It pushes people away and biases them against you and the argument you’re making.

Far too often I see vegans outright shaming and harassing people for choosing to eat meat, or acting smug and superior because they are making “the right moral decision” and everyone else is lessor for thinking otherwise. I often see them call people “stupid” and “lazy” for not making the same choice they did.

Now, if I came here acting the same way, but I was championing eating only meat and shaming others for eating vegetables, I’m sure vegans would be upset for the same reason.

It’s gotten bad enough that a lot of people (admittedly myself included) are put off by vegans and their arguments. Not because the arguments don’t have merit (they certainly do) but because enough vegans have acted antagonistic or smug that they get shunned for it when the discussion gets brought up, because it’s what has become expected.

If you really want people to listen to you, you need to frame it from a friendlier and more down-to-earth position and not come across as hostile. The human mind tends to close itself off immediately when faced with hostility. This doesn’t just apply to discussions about veganism, but any discussion in general really.

agressivelyPassive ,

And I have yet to encounter a single smug vegan. Not online, not offline.

But I’ve seen countless people like you fighting the just fight against vegan windmills (awesome Rügenwalder double reference for the German people here).

So where exactly are those vegans? Are they in the room with us right now? Or are you defining every mere mentioning of veganism as an attack because you deep down are afraid of actually having to confront the cognitive dissonance you’re living under?

xmunk ,

With the Kirsti Noem controversy going on I’ve seen quite a few smug shit takes about veganism including (paraphrasing) “why are all you non-vegans outraged by this, it’s no different than murdering a cow for their meat”.

Duke_Nukem_1990 ,

How is that smug?

xmunk ,

It completely disregards other people’s feelings.

braxy29 ,

i mean, a great many people don’t appreciate being told they are murderers. it provokes defensiveness rather than an openness to pro-vegan arguments.

Inui , (edited )

fffff

Objection , (edited )

Well, it’s not actually that different. There’s no consistent moral principle that explains why the animals we treat preferentially ought to be treated preferentially, it just comes down to cultural norms and which animals you think look cute. It’s worth examining whether our behaviors are grounded on what we actually think makes sense.

UckyBon ,

If you’re not vegan because of what other vegans might or might not do, maybe grow a pair and do what you think is best? Can’t people think for themselves anymore?

Kinda childish or sad not to do what you want because of others, most of whom you’ve never even met in real life.

Kanzar ,

I have absolutely encountered way more smug meat eaters than vegans or vegetarians… They go out of their way to make sexual jokes about forcing some sausage down people’s throats, too.

Objection ,

Thanks for your advice, but just to be sure it actually works, may I ask how many people you have convinced to go vegan?

Surely your advice is based on actual experience, right? You’re not just saying this because you disagree with veganism and want vegans to phrase their arguments in a toothless and ineffective way, right?

gmtom ,

Far too often I see vegans outright shaming and harassing people for choosing to eat meat,

As someone that has been Vegan before I assure its far far far far far far more common for it to be the other way around.

retrospectology ,
@retrospectology@lemmy.world avatar

The meat and dairy industries have been pumping out propaganda for years, mostly aimed at right-wing dudes. It’s just kind of part of right-wing culture at this point to kneejerk react to veganism with tired old tropes and stereotypes.

It was worse back in the 90s and early 2000s.

Semi_Hemi_Demigod ,
@Semi_Hemi_Demigod@lemmy.world avatar

Half of the beef in America is eaten by just 12% of the population, mainly men between 50-65.

grrgyle ,

Big if true!!! Can we get a link?

Specal ,

google.com/…/beef-usda-climate-crisis-meat-consum…

Sorry for the amp link,also it’s not the study but a summary of said study

grrgyle ,

Good article, thanks. I had no idea

paf0 ,

Interesting take. I definitely see it more with the MAGA crowd. Their idea of it is so absurd too. It’s always some half-witted meme where they take a photo of the most frail person they can find and label them a vegan. It’s silly, because there are plenty of jacked vegans out there, and there are also frail omnivores.

I understand people’s perspectives when it comes to the “meat is murder” vegans but otherwise it’s just a diet. I personally switched to eating meat just once a week late last year and I eat vegan most other days. I feel great, but I don’t make it anyone else’s problem.

raspberriesareyummy ,

Eating meat is murder though. Just of a different species, and a normal thing in nature, hence not objectionable per se. But killing for meat is still taking a life of a living and feeling being. If people choose to avoid that, and alternatives are available, that is great. For those who wish to continue eating meat, it must be transparent where it came from to make an informed decision, and we would need regulation / legislation that forbidsalll those livestock factories that cause suffering for more profit.

paf0 ,

No, sorry, eating meat is not the same as murder, it’s just nature.

I’m not a fan of factory farms either, but mostly for the antibiotics. The animals do suffer and people who can afford it should probably buy more certified “free range” options, but I’m not about to shame people for their dietary choices or incomes.

raspberriesareyummy ,

No, sorry, eating meat is not the same as murder, it’s just nature.

You can acknowledge it’s murder while accepting it’s also a part of nature (at least in the original hunting context). Breeding defenseless livestock in captivity, in order to slaughter them for food, that’s murdering a social creature.

I occasionally eat meat, but at least I am not lying to myself about what it means for the creature whose meat I eat.

If you tell yourself that animals have no capability to enjoy life, to be happy and play, and therefore have a right to live, then you need a reality check,

Eating any kind of animal is not wrong in terms of our nature and how our planet works, but if we have options without suffering from malnutrition (and by now we do), I applaud every person who chooses to go meat-free out of empathy.

lustyargonian ,

Holier than thou attitude from new vegans whose world view changed overnight and cognitive dissonance on the part of non vegan with the need to deflect than to make substantial changes.

Duke_Nukem_1990 ,

This is so frustrating. People saying “Oh I just don’t like those self-righteous vegans”. Thing is, it doesn’t really matter what vegans say or how reasonable/logically sound it is, the knee-jerk reaction is always the same.

Treczoks ,

Because the experience of the loud-mouth preacher vegan has become the stereotype of that movement. It might be frustrating for the rest, but it even more frustrating for the recipients of this preaching.

Duke_Nukem_1990 ,

Thanks for the example of exactly what I mean.

hydrospanner ,

If you’d like to break the stereotype of insufferable vegans, you might consider starting that process by not being one.

Duke_Nukem_1990 ,

And another example.

FuglyDuck ,
@FuglyDuck@lemmy.world avatar

Usually it’s not veganism, itself. Rather, it’s the vegans.

Specifically the annoyingly loud, self-righteous, insists-everyone-must-join-them vegans.

Unfortunately, most people only really see this sort of vegan- rather than the more common, average sort of person who happens to also be vegan.

cyrus ,
@cyrus@sopuli.xyz avatar

Specifically the annoyingly loud, self-righteous, insists-everyone-must-join-them vegans. Unfortunately, most people only really see this sort of vegan

On this note, I’d like to point to the Loud Minority problem; You have XYZ group, and within XYZ group there exists a minority that comes across as very “loud”. You can barely miss them, and because they state they’re a part of XYZ group, you start associating that group with the loud minority.

Happens with Vegans a lot, and usually people which have already associated a group with a minority within said group which annoys them do not want to learn that they are wrong, or will just refuse to accept they are wrong.

FuglyDuck ,
@FuglyDuck@lemmy.world avatar

Precisely.

Personal anecdotes, there was a particular vegan at work. The smell of cooked meat made her feel sick.

Instead of doing the rational thing and taking lunch at her desk; she proceeded to insist that the break room be meat-free. It escalated into all manner of preaching, “shame on you,”- including signage, nasty emails. Shaming with “don’t you care about me?!” All sorts of victimization.

The reality was any attempt at accommodating her was met with “not enough”. The entire office in the end, according to her, needed to be a complete vegan zone.

She didn’t last long for other reasons, but none of those shenanigans really helped. (let’s just say the attitude didn’t stop at being a vegan.)

Resonosity ,

Yeah that was a wrong decision on the vegan’s part. Perhaps this sort of behavior might be acceptable in the public commons, but work is a private space where people join a company for specific purposes. Work and philosophy/politics should not intertwine.

And who knows: if she excluded herself from the breakroom during lunch without notifying others, maybe coworkers would notice and be more willing to hear her out out of a desire to socialize. It probably could have helped her effort to do this actually.

Vegans live and learn. We are part of a minority group, and with being a minority comes all of its benefits and detriments. We just need to learn that in situations like these, we often are the only vegan around people and so we need to carry our entire movement on our shoulders, whether we want to or not. Else, you get general, anecdotal sentiments the likes of which you see in this post.

platypus_plumba , (edited )

I do think they are annoying but a necessary type of annoying that will help humanity progress. The same type of annoying as people who claimed women had rights and African Americans were not inferior.

Humans treat this planet like shit, we have zero respect for living beings and the ecosystems. Anyone who gets angry if someone calls them out for supporting animal abuse is just immature and selfish. Like they’ll just deny they are doing something wrong.

I’ll probably never stop eating meat until stuff like Beyond Meat becomes mainstream. But I won’t pretend I’m not a straight up asshole to these animals for supporting their torture and murder. The times I’ve been called out I’ve embraced it instead of denying the obvious.

In 150 years humans will look back in shame at what we did to those animals.

FuglyDuck ,
@FuglyDuck@lemmy.world avatar

Pointing out the consequences; the climate damage, all that is one thing. Respectful conversation.

Actively tossing out people’s lunches isn’t going to convince anyone of anything, though. Suddenly that person is now the face of vegans for everyone in the office.

Protests, sure. But when it comes to interpersonal relationships…. Yeah. Doesn’t help.

platypus_plumba ,

Ah yeha, agreed. If they get physical, fuck that. I’m sure that’s just like 1% or less of vegans. We can’t judge a whole group for the actions of a few.

markstos ,

Has someone ever tossed your lunch out?

FuglyDuck ,
@FuglyDuck@lemmy.world avatar

Yes. It was a salad made with left over carnitas, dried cranberry and a homemade vinaigrette. (Yes, I’m a little vindictive about it.)

She also tossed the front desk guys rice and beans because he included some impossible bacon.

(That was like the day before she got fired for other reasons.)

markstos ,

Wow. Sounds like she wasn’t helping herself or her cause.

Treczoks ,

Specifically the annoyingly loud, self-righteous, insists-everyone-must-join-them vegans.

Unfortunately, most people only really see this sort of vegan

If all you can see of a movement are the annoying loudmouths, it will quickly taint the overall image of that movement, regardless of goals of the the movement itself.

FuglyDuck ,
@FuglyDuck@lemmy.world avatar

Ding ding ding, got it in one, yes.

Resonosity ,

As a vegan myself, I’ve only met a handful number of other vegans in my lifetime irl, being raised omnivore for 23 years until changing.

Whenever I talk about the reasons why I made the switch to those who are curious, I always keep the militant vegans in mind and try to offer more charity than I otherwise would.

We vegans need to show the world that whether it’s diet or clothing (general use, specific use, etc.) or medicine or society (e.g. slaughterhouse workers contributing to societal psychosis) or climate or species loss or economic transparency, making the change is easy and a socially accepted thing to do.

This absolutely cannot take form as aggression against those that would be considered outside of our “group”. Any means of using coercion or manipulation to change what others do is a violation of their moral capacities. Unfortunately, humans also violate the moral capacities of more than 100 billion animals every year, so the trade-off can seem justified to some.

Every vegan needs to remind themselves that we’re doing this for the animals first and foremost. All behaviors should be guided by that principle: to reduce suffering for them as much as possible. Being militant, aggressive, and shameful to others can result in backlashes where people dig their heels in. A better way of convincing would be to give the science, show moral charity, offer easy alternatives, and illustrate factual evidence of the crimes done against animals. If we respect people to be able to change their minds given the evidence to do so, then they will.

IsThisAnAI ,

Because I sat at a table for an hour with a work colleague lecturing me on veganism. I couldn’t care less if you don’t lecture me.

RememberTheApollo_ ,

Because of the trope that vegans are pretentious twats that publicly chastise anyone not vegan.

Like most things it’s one of those situations that’s blown out of proportion and the vast majority of us will never interact with a preachy vegan. I’ve encountered many vegans in the wild and they’ve most all been decent people, and I love picking their brains for decent vegan or vegetarian foods. I don’t mind vegan/vegetarianism, it’s just not easy to do well, so it helps to talk to people who do it for real. That said, I have encountered a few that are on the preachy side, but whatever. They’re no different than the tool who has the “eat tasty animals” bumper sticker and the like.

i_love_FFT ,
@i_love_FFT@lemmy.ml avatar

All the vegans and vegetarians I’ve met in real life were chill dudes and dudettes. One was an engineer and semi-pro skateboarder that was always making people feel good and happy. Another one was a solid rock climber always smiling.

I know more annoying people complaining about vegans, always grumpy and being proud of always eating meat. I also know this cool swing dance instructor girl who only eats meat, so it’s also good.

grrgyle ,

I actually know a vegan engineer and vegetarian rock climber, too! Had several great dinners and lunches with them both!

bastion ,

Yep. It’s not the way of life, it’s the pretentious self-righteousness, and most people aren’t that way. Is like the ‘bad Christians’ fucking it up for all the ones that are basically love-and-forgiveness believers that are largely benign.

Most people - Christians, vegans, meat eaters, or whatever - are generally pretty chill. It’s the inciters that suck.

UckyBon , (edited )

Meat-eaters support a very harmful industry (both for the animals as well as the environment).

Nothing chill about that.

Edit: Thank you! Your downvote prevented another animal from being bred and killed within a couple of weeks after feasting on corn and body parts of its parents, meanwhile destroying the environment. Good job, buddy.

Voting here doesn’t work. Vote with your wallet 🤪

bastion ,

Lol I didn’t downvote you, and your self-righteousness is more of a block to getting the industry changed than it is a benefit.

Swallow your pride, don’t be a dick. Be humble, be honest about how you feel, and live up to your own ideals. But being an insufferable twat just drives people away from your ideals - you should really only do that to insufferable twats, otherwise, the thing you stand for isn’t saving animals, it’s self-righteous intolerance - and people look at you and think “glad I’m not like that guy.”

Win the hearts and minds, don’t just stab people for being wrong - or you’ll keep stabbing until you finally stab yourself to death.

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