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omgitsaheadcrab ,

This is a win for consumers, touch screens are bloody awful when driving and take away far too much of your concentration

Dudewitbow ,

IMO the capacititive buttons with no feedback are even worse than the touch screen. at least with the touch screen, you will likely have a colored UI element on screen to press. with the cars that replace all the buttons with capacitive buttons with no feedback, theyre all the same color.

merde ,

no feedback? 🤔

either the button or an indicator lights up or you see/hear what the button is supposed to activate or stop

Rinox ,

*haptic feedback. The touch and press should be two different actions, not the same action. Otherwise, you need to look at a button to know where it is and if it did what it was supposed to do, which distracts you from driving.

Touchscreens are not that much better in this regard, IMO

merde ,

do you also need haptic feedback with light switches at home? How do you know if they work or not?

datavoid ,

Light switches are physical objects, when you touch them you are going to feel them moving.

So… yes.

poppy ,

Additionally, I’m not flipping light switches while controlling a giant machine capable of killing people. Not sure why they compared the two.

Reverendender , (edited )

I think it’s because of the way that they are

merde ,

thanks for the help :)

it was to say that tactile buttons in cars don’t need haptic feedback either

Rinox ,

Of course I do. Imagine for a second not feeling the different light switches in the dark and turning on all the lights in the middle of the night just to go to the bathroom.

Sure, I know which I’ve touched AFTER I’ve touched it. I need to know BEFORE I press it, without having to look.

Thorny_Insight ,

I’d be fine with one that works like the Taptic engine on iPhones or how ever the trackpad on my Macbook does. It’s a solid surface with no moving parts but it clicks when you press it and it feels 100% the same as pressing a physical button. It’s way different than haptic feedback done with just the vibrator motor.

fuckwit_mcbumcrumble ,

That doesn’t work well in a car though. It works in a phone because you’re holding it, or a trackpad because you’re putting a lot of pressure on it. In a car it’s already shaking from the engine, road, etc. Plus those taps are generally much shorter and lighter and less likely to feel the vibration.

Damage ,

Just have it swerve when you press a button!

Markimus ,

I do agree with you, though why not just not buy cars which have touch screen controls? You don’t need legislation to filter your purchases.

catch22 ,

https://substackcdn.com/image/fetch/f_auto,q_auto:good,fl_progressive:steep/https%3A%2F%2Fsubstack-post-media.s3.amazonaws.com%2Fpublic%2Fimages%2F6ffd7c42-0040-485e-8431-31c62c73623a_850x400.jpeg

rottingleaf ,

The hand was fine until some point for most purposes, just like Newtonian physics were fine.

It did work as expected before that. The funniest thing is that the Soviet system started smelling of piss at the same time.

So libertarian and marxist views on economics were both like “now our enemy’s flaws are not much worse than our own, but it will get apocalyptic for them and we’ll win”, and somewhere in 60s it started getting apocalyptic for both. Damn funny.

BakerBagel ,

What’s funny is thay Adam Smith predicted all of our late stage capitalism before Marx and Engles were even born. He warmed that leaving capitalists to their own devices would destroy the economy, but instead he is regarded as the father of free marker capitalism by morons who never even read* Wealth of Nations. *

fine_sandy_bottom ,

Who’s taking about legislation?

ceiphas ,

Because it is a dependency for most things that buyers want in their cars. Not a technical dependency but cou cannot get Climate Control without a Touch screen in Some Cars for example.

doesn’t make sense

Rinox ,

You do though. Without legislations, cars wouldn’t have safety features by default like crumple zones, airbags etc. Without legislations, companies could do whatever they want to pad their bottom line. You need laws to define what is and isn’t acceptable, especially when it comes to safety.

Mirshe ,

Before we started legislating car safety, more often, if you got in a crash at speed, you would be either dead or seriously injured. It was not uncommon for a front-end collision to shove the entire steering column into, in some cases THROUGH, people’s ribcages because there was no shock absorption. “Defensive driving” - avoiding a collision at all costs - was taught mostly because of this sort of problem.

I’ll speak to the effectively of modern safety engineering myself - I was involved in two serious accidents within the past two years that, were I in a vehicle without safety features, would’ve left me dead or crippled for life. One, my Jeep spun out on a patch of wet road and got slammed by two other vehicles in a pinball situation - airbags deployed and I was left with some soreness and a thoroughly-wrecked vehicle. The other, my work van got T-boned by a semi truck at speed while crossing an intersection - once again, the airbags deployed, the seatbelt locked me in place, and the fact that the rear of the vehicle was designed to squish in on itself saved me from, at the very least, a severe case of whiplash, and more than likely some severe head injuries.

atrielienz , (edited )

As Teslas and cars like it become more popular (especially in the EV space), more automakers will be adding touch screens. A lot of Fords new cars have them for instance. I was in a Hyundai rental a few months ago and it has a touch screen. I personally think it’s a trend that will at some point be checked by the NHTSA or similar because they already know interacting with a phone slows reaction times, is distracting, and contributes to accidents. Why putting what is essentially a larger version of a smart phone on the dash should be better somehow is a question I’ve had since Tesla first started doing it.

jkrtn ,

I won’t. And I don’t need legislation to filter my purchases. I need legislation to filter the number of drivers using a touchscreen behind me on the highway.

Markimus ,

Oh ok, sure, I didn’t think of it that way 🤷🏻‍♂️

andros_rex ,

It’s really hard to find a car to buy that doesn’t use touch screens - they slap them on everything. Car quality in general has declined tbh - my modern Honda Civic was a fucking lemon.

summerof69 ,

I feel like I’m the only one here who is driving a car and not a spaceship. What’s there to interact with while you’re driving? Key multimedia buttons are already on the wheel.

maynarkh ,

Some Teslas have their windscreen wiper settings on the touchscreen.

marx2k ,

That’s the funniest thing I’ve heard today

blackn1ght ,

I think the latest models also have the gear selector (or whatever they’re called for automatics / EVs) on the touch screen, so you need to swipe up to put it into drive.

marx2k ,

So… the entire car is bricked if that screen malfunctions and the car is not usable by those with poor motor skills in their right hand?

blackn1ght ,

Or left hand for right-hand drive cars, but yes.

I watch the CarWow channel on YouTube and they review a lot of EV’s, and the host struggled with it - it would take him several attempts to get it into drive as he’d swipe up but not all the way so it would never actually engage. I guess in that case a software fix could be applied to make the control more sensitive but it’s still fucking stupid to have it there in the first place.

Also for more WTFs, on that same channel, they do these challenges where they drive a bunch of EVs on a route and see which one goes the furthest, which has the closest range to what the manufacture claims it’ll do and what happens to the vehicle when it runs out of battery. There was an instance where the Tesla ran out of charge, but they couldn’t open the recharging port because the little door is electronic.

FuglyDuck ,
@FuglyDuck@lemmy.world avatar

Making it “more sensitive” could be awful. Imagine the carnage of suddenly dropping into reverse because a shirt sleeve brushed the button while reaching for something else.

Critical controls all need to be physical. Period. Putting something like rbgd mood lighting on… okay. That kinda makes sense.

But anything a driver might need while driving…. Dont have to reinvent the wheel. Which, is probably the biggest issue with Tesla’s. They were more interested in finding new ways of doing things than doing things well.

Damage ,

Eh, many automatics nowadays just have electrical switches to change between p, n, d and so on, if those break it’s the same… Normally a switch would be more reliable still than a screen, but this is Tesla we’re talking about…

Jramskov ,

Nope, there are alternative buttons, but I agree it’s not an improvement that they have removed the stalks.

HonoraryMancunian ,

Holy shit that shouldn’t be legal

AA5B ,

It’s actually one of my biggest gripes …. Washer and single wipe are on a control stalk but wiper speed is on touch screen.

I think the theory is that wipers are automatic so you don’t usually need to control them manually, but that automation doesn’t work very well or maybe the rain sensor doesn’t work very well

maynarkh ,

The problem with automation is usually that while it can do 90% of the cases well, and that’s where it brings value, for safety critical stuff, like critical car components, there needs to be a way to quickly and easily override it.

In the 1994 Ford Mondeo I used to drive, if a truck with a poorly secured load and a questionably awake driver was barreling down the highway at 110-120 in a rainstorm, if I wanted to get the car ready to pass, it was one move to click the wiper into “wipe for your life” mode before the truck started to powerblast the windscreen with water splashing up from the tires.

I’m not sure if I could do that in a Tesla, especially since if it does it only when it would already be needed, that’s too late. And the thing is, even if the automation did work, how do I know 100% it does work when I do something that would be dangerous if it did not work?

AA5B ,

Actually just now on my way home discovered a new feature ….

If I click the button for a single wipe, it also pops up the wiper dialog on the touch screen, so all the configurations are right there. You have to act fast before it disappears , so it’s possible that it’s always been there but I didn’t look at the screen right after pressing the button. Anyway, that greatly simplifies the process. While the controls are still touch screen at least I don’t have to click through the menu to find the controls

sky ,

You can use the left scroll wheel on your steering wheel to adjust the wipers once you’ve pressed for a single wipe. Just click it right for more, left for less. No need to look at the screen at all really. There’s a little graphic on the wiper controls showing you this.

AA5B , (edited )

Is that what the little arrows onscreen are meant to say? I’ve been trying to click on them, since it is a touchscreen and I expect to click on controls

Edit: sweet . Thanks for the tip. I think the timeout was just too fast for me to have discovered it

marx2k ,

…while you’re driving…

Jramskov ,

I’d be okay with it if the auto wiper function worked great, but they decided to drop the rain sensor and use the autopilot cameras for it instead and they simply haven’t been able to make it work.

AA5B ,

Temperature control or defrost

In my Subaru, hvac is three large distinctive knobs I can use without looking. In my Tesla, it’s more automatic so I need to change it less, but it’s all in touch screen menus

iheartneopets ,

Cherish that Subaru, because it’s not that way in them anymore. At least, not in ours, which was purchased in 2021. Now hvac is all touch screen; it’s awful.

Damage ,

When even the Japanese car makers fall to the temptation of stupid gimmicks, the whole industry must be at a crisis point

scytale ,

I have a 2024 Subaru and the A/C contols are on the screen now as well. The temp control and defrost are still buttons though, so while I would prefer physical buttons, the current setup is manageable and I’ve gotten used to it. I just make sure to set everything before driving, then use the physical temp controls to adjust when needed.

Damage ,

TBH my old Subaru’s auto climate control is so good I never change it from auto 20.5°C.

scytale ,

I actually want to use the auto so I can just set and forget. The problem is, at least for my 2024 model, it turns on the foot vents as well. I wish you could set it to auto but only using the face vents.

iheartneopets ,

The problem is that even the fan speed settings/airflow settings are touch now, which require divided attention while driving to adjust. That defrost button turns the setting on full fucking blast, when most of the time there’s no call for that, so I have to look and find the fan speed part of the touch screen. Adjusting the temp is only one small part of climate control in the cab. Plus, if you start out your drive with the seat warmers on, but now they’re sweating you out while driving, you have to navigate into a separate menu via touch to turn them off.

Not to mention the never ending battle of adjusting the brightness via touch if it’s blinding my eyes while driving at night VS barely being visible during the day.

It’s all just so frustrating, and I wish there were at least options to take the damn thing out.

scytale ,

I get it, I wish the fan speed setting was a physical dial as well. Having said that, after 2 months of driving, I pretty much was able to figure out a routine where 99% of the time, I just need to adjust the temp and not have to fiddle with the fan speed. It’s not ideal of course, but stil better than literally everything on the screen like a tesla.

For the 2024 models at least, the heated seats are now controlled by switches next to the shifter, so no need to go through the screen to adjust or turn them on/off.

I personally haven’t had issues with the brightness, probably because my windows are tinted, so I can make it bright enough for visibility during the day, and not too bright at night at the same time.

Your complaints are valid though, and I agree, all hvac controls should be physical switches/dials.

Emerald ,

Now im imagining a spaceship with all the controls only on one big touchscreen

Hamartiogonic ,
@Hamartiogonic@sopuli.xyz avatar

Imagine what happens one morning when you’re having your morning coffee while walking to the big screen. You suddenly slip, and the coffee mug hits the display, decorating it with a spider web of cracks and a splatter of coffee. I hope you can make it to the next space station using nothing but voice commands.

Emerald ,

No, you cannot use the voice commands because you didn’t log in with Google.

Fishytricks ,

If its Google, it would already been cancelled

Hamartiogonic ,
@Hamartiogonic@sopuli.xyz avatar

Just before arriving to the orbit of Callisto, Google Landing AI got discontinued. Fortunately, Google Thruster is still operational, so we’ll just have to use the manual override to land safely. Let’s hope Google doesn’t kill that project any time soon.

XTL ,

That would be the starship Enterprise.

candybrie , (edited )

There’s actually a good number of things: windshield wipers, blinkers, cruise control, climate control, defrost, headlights, hazards, and gear (prndl). You’d be surprised at which of these some companies have tried to put on the touch screen.

helenslunch ,
@helenslunch@feddit.nl avatar

Not really a “win” for anyone since it’s nothing but a suggestion:

Euro NCAP is not a government regulator, so it has no power to mand

cmnybo ,

Touch screens should not be used for any controls needed to operate a car. You can’t use them without taking your eyes off the road.

DreadPotato , (edited )
@DreadPotato@sopuli.xyz avatar

Technically the only thing you’re allowed to fiddle with, while driving, is what you can operate from the steering wheel. You’re not supposed to fiddle with radio, AC etc. from the center console while driving even if it’s physical buttons.

I know people don’t drive like this, but you’re only allowed to take your hands off the steering wheel for changing gears if driving a manual, otherwise it’s two hands on there at all times…technically

Mog_fanatic ,

Clarify allowed. Is it actually illegal in the EU to turn on the radio or air conditioning while driving unless the buttons allow you to do it from the steering wheel?

baru ,

Is it actually illegal in the EU

What’s allowed differs per country.

DreadPotato ,
@DreadPotato@sopuli.xyz avatar

It differs from country to country, but where I live you can technically be fined for it. You will also fail your drivers test if you do it.

Link ,

Where I live changing the AC is a task they can ask you while on the test.

If you do it dangerously such as swerving or taking your eyes off the road for extended periods then you can fail the test.

Pips ,

Is “you’re the passenger, you do it, please,” an acceptable response?

knatschus ,

Of course

Damage ,

“I won’t always be here to passenge for you!”

Jramskov ,

What country is that?

ekky ,

I’m more concerned about fog lights, emergency lights, and Window heating, as law usually requires you to be able to use them if conditions require it.

IdiosyncraticIdiot ,

Hands on 10 and 2 while operating the 2 ton death trap!

DreadPotato ,
@DreadPotato@sopuli.xyz avatar

Phew im good then, my car weighs 1 ton so i can just drive with one hand right?

Soggy ,

The math checks out.

Wizard_Pope ,
@Wizard_Pope@lemmy.world avatar

Actually your hands are supposed to be at 9 and 3

GarlicToast ,

This differ by countries. Here I’m required by law to operate the car as needed to operate it safely.

If the cloud vanish, I am allowed to put sunglasses, if I get vapor on my windshield I am allowed to push the button to remove it and so on.

But you have to do it safely and smartly. If you get in an accident that you would have been able to prevent otherwise, you may be found at fault. Even if you didn’t cause it.

DreadPotato ,
@DreadPotato@sopuli.xyz avatar

The wording is probably similar here, but very few critical systems are not controllable from the steering wheel.

Wipers, volume, AC, cruise control are all controlled from the steering wheel of modern cars, there’s really not anything you need to do from the centre console to drive safely. If it’s not a critical system, you shouldn’t be using it, physical buttons or not.

Ilovethebomb ,

I’ve never seen a car where you can adjust the AC from the wheel.

DreadPotato ,
@DreadPotato@sopuli.xyz avatar

Mine can 🤷‍♂️ thought that was just about normal these days actually.

Ilovethebomb ,

How much crap is on your steering wheel? What model of car is this, anyway?

candybrie ,

Are you counting the stalks behind the wheel as on the steering wheel?

DreadPotato ,
@DreadPotato@sopuli.xyz avatar

Yes, you can operate them without letting go of the steering wheel or taking your eyes off the road.

candybrie ,

I’m definitely taking my hand off the wheel to operate things like headlights or wiper speed, which are dials on the end of a stalk. It would be really difficult not to.

atrielienz ,

It’s funny that hazard lights are not included in the list and while they’re not part of a touch screen interface for any car as far as I know, I also know some older cars used to mount that button on top of the steering wheel and I kind of wish we could go back to that.

ekky ,

Same, I’ve got an Opel Corsa from 2016, so it’s pretty much brand new.

The only things in the wheel are the speed control, wipers, and default lights.

For everything else required for driving, such as fog lights, emergency lights, front and back Window heating, AC, radio, and of course the shift stick, I’ll need to remove a hand from the wheel.

Luckily for me, the Touchscreen in the middle only handles less important things like navigation and external music sources.

Ilovethebomb ,

Wait, you don’t even get radio volume, next track etc on the wheel?

ekky ,

Oh right, I do actually have track, volume, and “take call” on the wheel. I think I did use them once, but it just never stuck since they felt awkward to use.

GarlicToast ,

Is there any place left for your hands? I have never, ever seen a car that is built like that.

DreadPotato ,
@DreadPotato@sopuli.xyz avatar

Its all placed in the left/right spokes of the steering wheel, your hands shouldn’t grab that part…how the hell do you grab it if that stuff is in the way!?

zephr_c ,

If you read the article this is specifically about things needed to operate the car. Radios and AC or whatever is fine, but car manufacturers are starting to move things actually needed like turn signals into touch controls, and that is not okay.

DreadPotato ,
@DreadPotato@sopuli.xyz avatar

Yes touch controls, but the comment I replied to mentioned touch screens (so usually the centre console), which only contains thing you don’t really need to manage while driving.

zephr_c ,

The comment you replied to also specifically said “controls needed to operate a car.”

DreadPotato ,
@DreadPotato@sopuli.xyz avatar

Suggesting he is confusing the point of the article.

miss_brainfarts ,

Wait… what? What???

zephr_c ,

Yeah, thank Tesla for that one. Because of course it was Tesla.

miss_brainfarts ,

Seems like a few countries should go over their laws again and prohibit those models from being sold. I don’t know what else would be effective

redcalcium ,

Tesla is very confident their customers won’t need steering wheel anymore soon, so they went ahead and fuck the steering wheel even though the autopilot can’t work in all circumstances yet.

helenslunch ,
@helenslunch@feddit.nl avatar

Autopilot never will, you’re thinking of FSD.

onion ,

Didn’t Tesla put the wiper settings on the center console

DreadPotato ,
@DreadPotato@sopuli.xyz avatar

It’s always been a button on the left stalk at the steering wheel, and for quite a while wiper speed has been adjustable from the left scroll-button on the steering wheel as well.

atrielienz ,

So if my windows fog over I shouldn’t be able to put the defrost on?

DreadPotato ,
@DreadPotato@sopuli.xyz avatar

You should have configured your AC before you started driving.

I haven’t had windows fog up during a drive spontaneously since forever ago when AC became standard in even cheap vehicles since they dry the air.

archon ,

You’ve never driven in a humid tunnel, or live in a place with changing weather do you?

DreadPotato ,
@DreadPotato@sopuli.xyz avatar

Oh I do, we have almost 200 days of precipitation yearly, and temperatures fluctuating wildly between days all seasons of the year.

archon ,

Some tunnels where I live explicitly instruct you to adjust your AC before entering.

I’m allowed to adjust anything within arms reach as long as I keep my eyes on the road. It is my responsibility to familiarize myself with the controls before departing so I can do so.

atrielienz ,

I’m driving. There is not a drop of rain in the sky. 2 hours into my drive it starts raining and my windows fog up. Your answer is I should have turned on the defrost before I left. Interesting. Against reason and human nature. But interesting.

DreadPotato ,
@DreadPotato@sopuli.xyz avatar

What kind of shit-buckets are you people me riving that requires you to turn on defrost just because it starts raining!?

I regularly drive in conditions that go from sunny to rainy, or even sunny to snow/slush…that’s pretty much all our weather is where I live. I never have to start defrost mode while driving, ever. I use defrost to defrost and remove ice from the the car before I start driving, the AC keeps everything fine without me adjusting anything no matter the change of conditions while I’m driving.

atrielienz ,

I generally get cold. I don’t turn on the A/C unless it’s hot out. So generally what happens is, in winter (because of where I live and the amount of daily precipitation) I either leave the climate controls off or I turn them on when I get cold or when my windshield starts to fog over. Not everyone who drives a car drives a nice brand new car with nice modern brand new features.

I don’t know what kind of car you do drive but I will say your experience is probably not the norm and certainly not enough to justify your original statement. You keep using the term A/C which suggests to me that you have climate controls that either automatically adjust to a specific setting when you start the car, or you turn the A/C on every time you get in the car.

How much condensation builds up depends on a lot of factors. Your own body chemistry can add to it. I have a friend who runs hot and every time he gets in the car he cracks the window because if he doesn’t him sitting there will fog that window up.

DreadPotato ,
@DreadPotato@sopuli.xyz avatar

AC also keeps the car warm you know…and yes, I tell it to keep my car at 21°C and it does just that. Its a Peugeot 308, medium trim level, that’s more than a decade old with +250k km on it, I’m not driving a nice new car at all. My wife’s VW up is exactly the same, also not new and definitely not a “nice” car.

atrielienz ,

The AC does not keep the car warm. The HVAC system does. The AC settings specifically do two things. They lower the temperature of the car, or a blend door is used to allow air cooled by the AC system to mix with air heated by the heater core to provide temperature between the absolute maximum heat and the absolute maximum cold.

But regardless, you tell it to keep your car at a specific temperature. That’s not how I or seemingly most people use their climate controls.

On days where I used to have drill, my drilling station was something like 70 miles away from my home. If it’s not raining and in comfortable I don’t turn on the climate control system at all. But weather absolutely can be much different there than it is at my home. Climate control is there when I need it. Same as manually controlled headlights, or, wipers, or the map light. I don’t need to take my eyes off the road to press the dedicated defrost button. I drive a manual car so taking my right hand off the wheel for shifting is normal and I really don’t understand why anyone would advocate for changing any of those settings to a touch screen.

bigMouthCommie ,
@bigMouthCommie@kolektiva.social avatar

"allowed"? where do you live with such laws?

ColeSloth ,

Technically, you know vehicles went 80 years without any steering controls? Buttons on the wheel still isn’t a requirement.

Hyperreality ,

Suspect it depends on where you live, but you're not wrong.

I think I've driven a million kilometres by now, it's all become so fucking boring and second nature, that you start really being sloppy and distracted. Because you gained so much experience, you start to (unconciously) overestimate your skills.

But the two hands thing really is necessary for if you hit something slippy or need to make an unexpected manoeuvre. The risks of driving are incredibly low, but if shit does hit the fan you're in for a world of trouble if you're doing something else.

mindlight ,

Touch screen, Vibration feedback/Color change or not, means that you have to look at what your hand is doing and not on the road.

A physical button means you can keep your eyes on the road and find the right button with easy.

So let’s be honest. At this point, touch screens are chosen by car makers because cost and not design. So essentially, safety is less important than cost for the car makers.

UxyIVrljPeRl ,

deleted_by_author

    •
    pineapplepizza ,

    You can find a large volume knob without taking your eyes off the road or press the next track/station button. We are not asking to configure a new Bluetooth connection while driving.

    UxyIVrljPeRl ,

    Yes to the Volume Knob. The next button or even worse the play button, i cant.

    Soggy ,

    Shit interface then. Pressing down on my volume knob pauses it, and I’ve got media controls on the steering wheel as well so I can change tracks with my left thumb keeping both hands on the wheel.

    merde ,

    maybe the problem is you and not the buttons or knobs.

    Are you having these issues only in your car or in other places too?

    Ookami38 ,

    If the next button is to the right of the volume knob, always, and the play button is below the volume knob, always, and the previous button is to the left of the volume knob, always, then if you can find the volume knob, you can find those other controls. It’s just a biiiiiit of learning your car’s interface.

    UxyIVrljPeRl ,

    The play button is number 5, 4 is shuffle and 6 is repeat. the buttons for 1-6 are smooth meaning you can not discern on wich button you are without looking. Shuffle and repeat have 3 modes you switch through if you press them.

    Volume Knob opens the Menu onclick.

    I can type mostly blind on both a Touchscree(phone) and on a Mechanical Keyboard.

    Ookami38 ,

    You can type blind on a center console touchscreen, but you can’t memorize the location of 6 buttons that don’t move? I’m not buying it, doc. Besides, the buttons should at least have a ridge where the edges of them are, even if the buttons are smooth. If they’re those shitty, completely smooth capacitive “buttons” that some electronics have anymore, I get not being able to discern them, but that’s still the same problem as the touchscreen - no tactile feedback.

    I also wasn’t exactly trying to say exactly how your radio is laid out, I have no idea on your specific model. My point was that the buttons don’t move, they’re always in the same spot, so you just learn where they are.

    JohnEdwa ,

    I can as all the buttons are in a row. Same for the AC and heater controls. I pretty much know them by heart so it takes a fraction of a second to glance where to roughly put my finger, and then I can count them out by feel while looking at the road.

    nevemsenki ,

    That image, while not as bad as a touchscreen, is still a pretty poor design. So many uniform buttons so close still require most people to look. Buttons should be clustered and/or have slighty different shape so you can tell by touch which one you’re about to press…

    Fudoshin ,
    @Fudoshin@feddit.uk avatar

    When you remember where the buttons are they’re fine to navigate. The average keyboard that meant people can type on without looking has less physical feedback (2 small bumps on f and h).

    dojan ,
    @dojan@lemmy.world avatar

    Yeah, once you get used to typing on a keyboard you don’t really need anything else. I got blank caps for my keyboard because I thought it looked neater. Memorising a row of climate options isn’t that bad. If you mix buttons and dials it’s even easier. If the manufacturer thinks of accessibility they’ll also add tactile bumps and such and make it accessible for people who don’t have great vision too.

    https://lemmy.world/pictrs/image/7d293771-cd3f-4c71-855b-5747f388d0a8.png

    prole ,

    Lol as someone who touch types but sometimes has to look down for F-key locations and which symbols are attached to which numbers, this would drive me mad.

    dojan ,
    @dojan@lemmy.world avatar

    That’s fair! Looking at my work computer’s keyboard, I’d go nuts if that was the case too. This keyboard has it clustered in groups of four though, so it’s not that challenging. Plus I rarely use more than two or three function keys on my personal computer.

    XTL ,

    F keys are in groups. It’s easy to see which is which workout text.

    Symbols are in the category of layout learning.

    I had a blank keyboard once. This was so long ago that it was probably a manufacturing fluke but I really liked it. Though whatever the caps say didn’t really affect the use in any way.

    Ookami38 ,

    Compare it to a video game controller. Or a keyboard.All of my face buttons and keys have the same shape and size. I still know where they are, because I’ve used them each hundreds, thousands of times. You learn where they are, and if you don’t immediately touch the right one, you can find it because they never move and you have feedback. A touch screen has zero feedback, and buttons are inconsistently placed, or 4 menus deep.

    Got_Bent ,

    Channel change and volume control are all physical buttons on my steering wheel. All feel, no look. To me, that’s the best way it can be. The only time that isn’t useful is if I’m out of town and presets don’t work. For those situations, I’m generally streaming ahead of time.

    Blue_Morpho ,

    Even in a car I’ve never driven before I can find controls by feeling across the dashboard and pushing at random until I get what I want. With a touch screen you can’t push at random without taking your eyes off the road because there is nothing to feel.

    prole ,

    Absolutely. You only need to find it once… And another thing, you can keep your finger on it and press it as many times as needed and know whether or not your press registered because guess what: it always does when you press it down.

    Shawdow194 , (edited )
    @Shawdow194@kbin.social avatar

    Ideally, a well designed physical button wont need any visual confirmation to push or tell if it's already toggled

    Think old school hazard lights, horn or turn signal stalks with clicking noise. You dont need to look at it at all to toggle them, or confirm button is depressed or activated. You can tell by auditory confirmation or haptically

    Zink ,

    It amuses me to no end how here on Lemmy, with our concentration of computer nerd types, absolutely HATES touch screens in cars.

    But to be fair, I think everybody who reviews cars says they hate them too.

    kamen ,

    Enjoying tech is one thing, wanting touchscreens everywhere is another. If they were so cool as an input device, all the cool kids would have ditched their mechanical keyboards from their desks.

    Zink ,

    Maybe the ubiquity of smart phones and all the functionality packed in to them has created a “touch screen == high tech” association in the general public.

    But those of us who work with tech rather than just consuming it know the difference between functionality and UI. And we use nice physical interfaces like mouse + kb to interact with various tech all day, even if we use our phones too.

    keyez ,

    I believe this thinking is what the car companies are banking on too, assuming people see 3-4 screens means it’s more premium when I just screams the opposite to me and those I know.

    wren ,
    @wren@sopuli.xyz avatar

    Yep, physical input devices all the way. I literally just upgraded my computer from an Aya neo (touch screen only), to a GPD Win 4 specifically to have more physical inputs. While the Win 4 is also a handheld gaming pc (that is even smaller than the Aya), it has a slide out keyboard and an optical mouse sensor, which has honestly made so much of a difference in being able to use the device. Even just simple things like scrolling through Steam has become easier, never mind situations that involve any sort of typing.

    I still love my Aya though, things a tank.

    SocialMediaRefugee ,

    I have a love/hate relationship with phone touch screens. On the one hand it enables us to have controls that would be impossible on a phone, like selecting a point on a map, infinite variety of button controls, etc. On the other hand I can’t tell you how many times I’ve barely brushed the screen by accident and the damn thing is off doing something I didn’t want. “NO! DON’T SHUT OFF THE APP YOU…sigh”

    stoly ,

    I would happily buy an iPhone with a physical keyboard under a slider. Much faster and more accurate than using Swype.

    AnUnusualRelic ,
    @AnUnusualRelic@lemmy.world avatar

    It’s not the first time someone comes up with the next great thing that ends up being a user interface disaster. Light pens (w/ link for the younger crowd) come to mind.

    odelik ,

    Ooof. I remeber using light pens in the 80s at a dumb terminal at my local library to find books. It was painful…

    uis ,

    Anyone remembers dumb terminals?

    XTL , (edited )

    This is Lenny. Most users probably do. Good percentage still have a few. A few of us make new ones now and then.

    (Technically not dumb ones, though. And completely excluding terminal emulators, which are of course ubiquitous.)

    odelik , (edited )

    Dumb terminals were extremely prevelant throughout the 80s and into the early-mid 90s. Most people just didn’t know that they were “dumb terminals” and either just thought they were early desktop computers or just heard them referred to as a “terminal”. That same library didn’t update their dumb terminals to actual computers until the mid 90s, but they did however remove the light pen in favor of a keyboard at some point well before then.

    stoly ,

    Oh boy, forgot about those. Every school library used one to read a barcode.

    AnUnusualRelic ,
    @AnUnusualRelic@lemmy.world avatar

    You’re probably thinking of something else. You can’t read anything with those

    smeenz ,

    They’re thinking of optical pens

    datalogic.com/…/the-first-optical-pen-nd2-8116.ht…

    reddit.com/…/does_anybody_remember_these_barcode_…

    stoly ,

    all the cool kids would have ditched their mechanical keyboards

    I never thought of it this way, but it make sense.

    kameecoding ,

    I am doing car shopping right now, anything that doesnt have physical controls is out of the question no matter how good a deal it is or how cool the car otherwise is

    BlackPenguins ,

    Time and place. Do I want everything on a touchscreen at home? More compact and allows more options. Yes.

    While I’m trying to fumble for a control when I’m driving a 2000 lb deathtrap at 55 MPH? No.

    noxy ,
    @noxy@yiffit.net avatar

    Agreed, but what the heck car do you drive that’s as light as 2000 pounds??

    ParsnipWitch ,

    I never thought it would bother me, until I actually sat in a car where everything was dependent on software the first time.

    At first I thought I was just getting old. But it dawned on me that relying on software to fucking roll down the windows or starting the car doesn’t feel too good.

    (It was also an extreme jump in technology for me because the last car I drove before that was an old Corsa around the year ~2005.)

    uis ,

    To be fair you probably already had software in engine before 2000.

    XTL ,

    Quite likely even power windows were driven by microcontrollers close to 2000 and used bus messaging between buttons and (non driver window) controller. Mercedes, certainly.

    billbasher ,

    There are so many things that can go wrong with software where in mission critical situations like cars electricity is the preference

    Also tracking comes with that software… nerd types (like me) hate that type of stuff. I think tracking data like that should be banned and is the reason why I won’t buy a new car until that happens

    SocialMediaRefugee ,

    As an IT guy I have a case of “familiarity breeds contempt” when it comes to tech. A lot of it feels unnecessary and overcomplicates things and increases the chance of a failure.

    stellargmite ,

    In IT the failures are the reason there is an industry - to some degree - and a feature of systems, so they require large numbers of staff to deploy and maintain. Quite similar to the ICE automobile historically in that regard. So the cars impact is now not just manufacture of parts , local mechanics for repair, but also buildings of software engineers, IT professionals, the cloud engineers, the cloud infrastructure itself and so on. Of course that isn’t necessarily exclusive to EVs, or even to just the auto industry.

    uis ,

    Another question why we need all that cloud infrastructure in first place

    stoly ,

    Because they are stupidly dangerous. The reason physical controls work is because you can memorize where they are and touch them without looking. With the touch screen you have to loo EVERY TIME you want to do anything, and that’s an opportunity to not notice something on the road and end up in an accident.

    jtk ,
    @jtk@lemmy.sdf.org avatar

    I’ve hated touchscreens on everything since forever, and have been shouting into the darkness about how stupid they are in cars since the idea was first introduced. I think most nerds have been doing the same for a long time. Touchscreen are only good for mindless tapping on unimportant things, everything else needs dedicated controls.

    ikidd ,
    @ikidd@lemmy.world avatar

    There is no discernible difference to me between using a builtin touchscreen and a phone. If one is distracted driving, then so should the other. You have to take your eyes off the road to use both, and with physical controls, I might glance it it but most of the operation of them is done by braille. If I pressed a button, I know I pressed a button and I pressed the right one, I don’t have to look back at it to know that. And if I have to follow it up with another action, my hand already knows where that control is relative to the one I just pressed.

    The only thing I could live with on touchscreen is music or diagnostics since neither are particularly necessary when you’re in the act of driving.

    smeenz ,

    The difference for me is that my phone is sitting in a holder stuck to the windscreen and looking at it means I’m only slightly looking away from the road, so I will still see movement in my peripheral vision.

    By contrast, a large touchscreen in the middle of the dash necessarily means taking my eyes entirely off the road and probably also adjusting to the brightness of the display.

    Neither are great, but one is worse than the other

    uis ,
    1. Safety implications(especially distractions part)
    2. Economic and owninership implications
    3. xkcd.com/2030/
    Churbleyimyam ,

    Apart from being dangerous in a car they are also super annoying. I got a Walkman a couple of years ago just so I could pause and skip tracks by pressing a button in my pocket.

    sunbeam60 ,

    Touch screens are so dumb.

    • AC controls, control surface heating heating/cooling (steering wheel, seat etc)
    • Volume controls
    • Turns, wipers, lights
    • Fog lights

    Basically everything you might touch during the drive should be physical.

    Pogbom ,

    Wait, are there cars with lights/wipers on a touch screen?

    kureta ,

    I know about Aç and volume controls. I hope the rest are not (yet) on touch screens.

    Blue_Morpho ,

    Tesla for a very long time had wiper speed on the touch screen. Wipers were supposed to be automatic so they didn’t provide physical controls. But of course auto wipers don’t work all the time and Tesla’s camera detector is particularly bad. They since changed the steering button to bring up touch control.

    sunbeam60 ,

    Tesla and VW’s idiotic light controls are touch (but not a screen) so you have to take your eyes off the road to turn fog lights on and off. The panel is completely flat and there’s a risk you might turn the main beam off. I mean, the mind boggles.

    Mic_Check_One_Two ,

    Tesla routes pretty much everything through the center console. I’m surprised they haven’t tried to route the blinkers through it.

    It’s because their wiring system basically just daisy chains everything together with network cable. So it’s a lot less cabling, because they aren’t running six wires for six different systems. But it also means that when one system fails, they all fail in a cascade because everything behind that system in the chain is also affected.

    That’s why automakers have traditionally used individual wires for each system, because they have prioritized safety over easier wiring; You don’t want your airbags to fail just because your wipers are having an issue, for instance. So each system is essentially isolated to its own wiring.

    Tesla is a good example of people not understanding why things are done a certain way. Elon just saw modern wiring harnesses and went “lol that’s dumb just use network cables.” And on the surface it sounds fine, because it’s less wiring. But it fails to understand why each system is wired independently. And now Teslas have frequent issues with cascading system failures.

    grue ,

    Tesla: bringing back token ring networks, one shoddily-built car at a time.

    barsoap , (edited )

    It’s because their wiring system basically just daisy chains everything together with network cable

    That’s the case in all modern cars beginning in the 90s: Everything that’s not directly mechanical is on the CAN bus. Not every single button individually, but button assemblies (the steering wheel counts as one), there’s no wire going just for the blinkers through the wiring harness it’s connected to the same bus that also carries signals for the brake lights.

    Capacitive buttons are simply cheaper than mechanical ones, also, too many automotive designers seem to have no concept of haptics and UX they’re in it for the sleek curves. Or, well, no concept of haptics that isn’t about how satisfying the door closes, they still get that one right.

    Zink ,

    I think on the newly revised model 3, Tesla removed the steering column stalks completely.

    suction ,

    so no virtual hookers / toy boys?

    menemen ,
    @menemen@lemmy.world avatar

    The main reason why I didn’t want high end packages for our last car was, that I am a cheap bastard. The second reason is, that I think touchscreens in cars are one of the dumbest ideas imaginable.

    dojan ,
    @dojan@lemmy.world avatar

    There are places where touch controls make a lot of sense. Cars is not one of them.

    My stove also has touch controls and I’d like a stern word with whomever designed it because it’s the biggest fucking bullshit. I’ve burned myself on those controls, I’ve had the stove turn itself off and refuse to turn on again because of water splashing onto the controls, I’ve had it turn on and glitch out because I’ve cleaned it off with a slightly damp rag.

    When I’m driving I absolutely don’t want to dig through non-tactile menus just so I can adjust the climate or turn on my heated seat. Plus, the lack of tactility sucks for blind people. Sure blind people won’t drive, but imagine having to ask the driver to change your AC for you? In the dark of winter with ice on the roads that’s just horribly irresponsible of whomever designed it.

    psycho_driver ,

    When I’m driving I absolutely don’t want to dig through non-tactile menus just so I can adjust the climate or turn on my heated seat.

    Look at Mr. Fancypants over here who can afford a heated seat subscription.

    dojan ,
    @dojan@lemmy.world avatar

    lmao I wish. I’d fucking never support that kind of behaviour. I don’t have a car, but my roomie has a VW Golf with subscriptionless heated seats.

    I happen to have a pretty decent inside view into the whole “heated seats” bullshit too. See, I used to work for a company that did a lot of work for Stellantis. You literally can’t fathom just how much administrative bullshit work goes into the customisation of packages and spec sheets. It’s a constantly ongoing thing, thousands of man hours are wasted on it. Things change between markets, and in some markets it affect insurance levels and whatnot, so there’s just so much underlying complexity beyond “oh I want a red car with heated seats.” I’ve legit no idea how it came to be as complicated as it is, but it’s mindfuckingly idiotic. When I left I believe Stellantis was working on replacing the system with their own, but I somehow doubt that it’s an improvement.

    They are saving incredible amounts of money by flat out removing options and having them unlocked through a subscription fee. Lots of work is removed just from an administrative view, nevermind the fact that the manufacturing chain gets streamlined and money is saved there too.

    On top of that, you’re paying for the seat, it’s not like they’re including features out of the kindness of their hearts, you’re paying for all of the hardware, and then they’re trying to pretend like they’re doing you a favour by letting you “pay for it when you need it.” It’s 100% a scam, and the EU isn’t going to do shit about it because among the perps are some of the most valuable German companies, and they happen to hold the German government by their balls.

    Bloodyhog ,

    The benefit of unified hardware and not having subscriptions can be easily combined: just replace subscriptions with a one-off charge for any feature. Warranty void if enabled not in a dealer shop. I think that would create much less noise than offering a monthly sub. Yes, I know, not great for the quarterly results, but then - so much less hate from your customers. And yes, touch screens in a car should wait until there is a full, proper self-driving capability in place.

    jkrtn ,

    The fact that a heated seat subscription idea didn’t completely end the consumer market for the manufacturers attempting it shows us that too few people are awake to impact their income. The manufacturer will do whatever they want, including recording every possible thing they are able to inside the vehicle.

    Bloodyhog ,

    I am afraid you are right. Am driving a non-connected old car, and intend to buy a new one without that crap.

    I do struggle to understand why the general population is so untroubled with this constant privacy breaching creep (a bit less worried with subs as when it comes to monies, people are a bit more alert). I have a lot of smart friends who click the “agree to everything you want from me” button everywhere, and they see no issue with it.

    dojan ,
    @dojan@lemmy.world avatar

    Sure, but you’d still be ripping people off. If your car has an option to unlock heated seats through microtransactions, you’ve already paid for heated seats.

    Bloodyhog ,

    The definition of rip off may vary. Still, that would be a saner marketing approach, in my view.

    As I understand, all the businesses are trying to replicate the IT-born business model of subscription for features. It should not be a thing in the real world, and I hope these managers come to sense, the sooner the better.

    dojan ,
    @dojan@lemmy.world avatar

    The way I see it, if I have to pay extra for a feature I’ve paid for, then it’s a rip-off. Like if I booked a hotel and then got told that I need to pay extra to have a bed, I’d be pretty miffed.

    Say you have options to have regular seats or heated seats, as well as leather or fabric seats, that’s essentially four options. By making all seats heated and locking the usage via software, you’ve cut the amount of options in half. That reduces complexity during assembly and ends up cutting costs. You’re still going to charge the customer at least the full price of the seat, though. It’s not like you’re charging for seat - heating hoping that the difference would be covered by those that actually choose to subscribe.

    There’s also the question of; what happens 10-15 years from now? Nintendo closed the store on the 3DS in March 2023. The console was released in February 2011. At what point will you no longer be able to use your heated seats because the manufacturer has stopped updating the API for your car, and you’re no longer able to pay for it? How will that affect resell value?

    I hate this sort of practise in smartphones and software. A car is order of magnitudes more expensive than a mobile game. If they want to apply mobile game tactics to vehicles, then the cost of the car should be comparable to a mobile game as well.

    grue ,

    just replace subscriptions with a one-off charge for any feature. Warranty void if enabled not in a dealer shop.

    The car owner has every right to use every hardware capability physically present in the car, “enabled” or not. Manufacturers have no right to deny warranty claims based on owner modification, unless they can prove that said modification caused the failure.

    Ookami38 ,

    The day they try to sell me a heated seat subscription is the day I put a heated blanket with a cigarette lighter plug on my seat.

    Agrivar ,

    Do cars even come with lighter sockets any more?

    Ookami38 ,

    Probably? I confess I don’t know. Car accessories that use them are pretty common tho, so probably.

    grue ,

    Sockets, yes (often more than one, in fact). Lighters themselves, probably not.

    The socket has evolved well beyond its initial use heating up a cigarette lighter.

    bitchkat ,

    I use my 12v socket to power my portable air compressor.

    XTL ,

    Most do. But it might just be USB sockets around the dash area or center console. Still probably at least one 12 V one somewhere and often one in the trunk.

    nicerdicer ,

    And after thet, they will turn the lighter socket into a subscription model.

    prole ,

    If I had read this comment even just a decade ago, I’d have thought it was clearly satire.

    But in 2024? Nope.

    Thanks capitalism!

    Hossenfeffer ,
    @Hossenfeffer@feddit.uk avatar

    “The intent is to provide drivers with a sense of pride and accomplishment for unlocking different heated seat configurations.”

    lud ,

    Touch controls on induction stoves do make some sense though. It simplified cleaning a lot when all you have to clean is a single large pane of glass

    ekky ,

    Agreed for induction, but I’d mich rather use one or two minutes more cleaning the knobs than having to almost cook my finger on this 60-90 degree Celcius hot conventional stove’s touch surface to change the plate from step 7 to 4 for 10 FUKKEN SECONDS! OUCH!

    Having to restart it 2-3 times during cooking because it got confused (pan moved slightly to the side) is also rather annoying.

    Edit & tl:dr: Touch works decent on induction, just please keep it far away from any conventional stoves.

    azertyfun ,

    Anyone who stills sells a conventional stove in 2024 needs to be jailed. Induction is so damn cheap now (229 € entry-level fullsize at IKEA) and better in every way that trying to sell a resistive stove else is just a scam.

    dojan ,
    @dojan@lemmy.world avatar

    I think there are ways you can execute touch controls well on induction stoves, but in our case I just don’t agree and overall I prefer actual tactile controls.

    The controls lack tactility, so if you’re blind you have no way of operating it. It’s also so stupidly set up, if I want to turn the top-left plate on to max, I have to hold the power button, then select the plate, then press the minus button twice, then press the plus button once, alternatively just press the plus button 9 times. The child lock has a tendency to automatically activate after I wipe it down, so if that’s engaged I have to disengage that first. Now if I were blind or visually impaired, it would be a nightmare to operate.

    Before I got somewhat used to this stove I’d keep moving hot pots onto the controls. This is obviously a user error, but it makes sense because I’ve spent the last 20 years cooking on electric stoves. Because of the inertia in hot plates, if something is too warm you move it off the plate, usually towards you or to the side. This stove has a fairly small cooking area, so if I have something cooking on the other plate, I’ll drag the pot towards me. Since it’s induction I don’t actually need to do this, but try to change a habit you’ve gotten used to by doing more or less daily for almost 20 years - it takes time.

    As a result the stove would turn off, or glitch out because it doesn’t handle multiple inputs, and then the controls would be too hot to touch.

    None of these things would be an issue if instead of having nine buttons it had four knobs. Also I keep calling them buttons, but they’re completely flat, non-tactile surfaces.

    azertyfun ,

    Oof, sounds like a nightmare. I have an IKEA induction stove and it’s literally just four sliders that you click where you want the heat to be. 100% power is at the right of the slider. There are a couple other buttons (multi-zone heating, timer, etc.), but you don’t strictly need them.
    So it’s way less frustrating and I guess a bit more accessible for people with bad eyesight, but for people with zero eyesight it still doesn’t work.

    The only induction stoves with physical knobs I saw online were several grand. Maybe there’s business to be made by selling “touch-to-physical” conversion kits for appliances… Or I guess bumpy decals would work as well.

    nekusoul ,
    @nekusoul@lemmy.nekusoul.de avatar

    It simplified cleaning a lot when all you have to clean is a single large pane of glass

    Alternatively, a combined oven+stove unit where the knobs are on the front panel and can be pushed in when not in use. That way you have a single pane of glass and knobs that aren’t an annoyance when cleaning.

    noobnarski ,

    I think touch controls make sense in cars, but only for navigation and advanced settings, like for how long the headlights should stay on when you leave the car, should the mirrors fold when you lock the car, stuff like that.

    Everything else should have a button.

    dojan ,
    @dojan@lemmy.world avatar

    Absolutely, I agree with this. Controls one might want to operate while driving, or that have frequent usage should be available as tactile buttons/switches/dials/what have you. If it’s something I’m like to set once or twice a year, or in my lifetime, it might as well be in a software menu somewhere.

    conciselyverbose ,

    Touch is still shit. Especially the much worse version cars have to use to be rated to manage heat and cold for decades.

    It’s not too bad with a little joystick like a Lexus has (no clue who else does). But touch screens for anything in a car are awful.

    Churbleyimyam ,

    Man I HATE touch controls, especially on stoves. Any time I use them I bitch and moan chronically.

    dojan ,
    @dojan@lemmy.world avatar

    This is an accurate description of me.

    Ookami38 ,

    Touch screens are great in cars! For one purpose. The navigation. The touchscreen should only display navigation and function as a keyboard to search it, and only while the car is stationary. Everything else should have a physical control, at bare minimum as “backup”

    BearOfaTime , (edited )

    Touch screens are great in cars!

    No, no they aren’t. If I have to stop to use a control in a car, it’s bad design.

    So far 15 18 23 people have shown they don’t know how to drive.

    cerulean_blue ,

    Read the full comment before replying you lemon

    Kbobabob ,

    Ok, lets hear your idea for how to navigate while driving. Please don’t say voice control, because voice control rarely works as needed.

    phoenixz ,

    Passenger does it? Have a sensor to see if there is a passenger, then allow it.

    jaemo ,

    And of course, we can rely on the universally true mutual exclusivity of always having a passenger when we need to navigate, and never needing to navigate when we don’t have any passengers. As constant as the north star, that one.

    phoenixz ,

    If you need to do navigation, you stop your car. If you have a passenger, he or she can do it while you are driving. It’s not that hard

    barsoap ,

    You’re rightfully getting downvoted because having a passenger is not at all a given and before the days of navigation systems you had to handle physical maps at the next red light or pull over, but there’s a kernel of truth to your statement:

    A passenger who can actually navigate is a godsend. I learned how to do it properly during my draft time (civil defence) and a proper navigator takes so much load off the driver it’s not funny any more. Incomparable to a computer navigation system. The driver is getting instructions exactly when necessary, confusing situations get called out and clarified, and when the driver makes a call “can’t drive left here” it’s the navigator’s responsibility to re-plan. You can actually focus on the road because the navigator takes on full responsibility for the route. It’s how you can get fast to a place in an area unknown to both driver and navigator, and with “fast” I mean with or without sirens, without that navigator backup sirens would generally be pointless, no brain cycles left to care about routes when you’re “breaking” rules of the street and dealing with apparently deaf and blind drivers left and right.

    The average passenger, though, is magnitudes worse than computer navigation. And I don’t just mean people who need to rotate the map to not get disoriented, I mean practically everyone.

    phoenixz ,

    I was getting down voted because apparently everyone thought I means have a passenger do the navigation?

    I meant that the driver should NEVER do navigation whilst driving because that kills people, there is no discussion there. So you either pull over, set the navigation computer and continue, or if you have a passenger, that passenger can do the navigation computer while you are driving.

    This is not controversial, this is basic driving

    Churbleyimyam ,

    “The suspect was seen leaving the scene with a waterbed strapped into the passenger’s seat”

    Ookami38 ,

    Mate there’s like, a whole paragraph left in my comment. You can’t safely type any navigation information while driving. If you want to use voice control to navigate, it doesn’t really matter if it’s physical controls or a touch screen. Maybe read the whole comment where all of this was already addressed.

    Churbleyimyam ,

    Epic downvotes

    yetiftw ,

    but imagine how incredible physical controls for navigation could be

    ___ , (edited )

    I’m imagining etch-a-sketch plan routing.

    spongebue ,

    My 2012 Pathfinder was the last year of that generation and had navigation designed before UX was really emphasized. It mainly relies on physical buttons and it’s overall terrible. Part of it involves an iPod-like scroll wheel, which is actually kinda nice to control zoom but that display is another kind of terrible.

    sic_semper_tyrannis ,

    Bring back the standard DIN design. Then we can all change out our head unit with something that has Garmin but doesn’t affect the physical buttons on the dash below it.

    KpntAutismus ,

    i wish that still existed, there’s conversions for some modern cars, but it has basically vanished.

    welp, gotta stock up on spare parts for my little nugget i guess…

    arc ,

    Personally I think that the following car functions should be mandatory physical controls - wipers, indicators, hazards, side/headlights, door locks, defogger / defroster, electronic parking brake. forward/reverse/neutral/park. And they should be controls that have fixed position in the car (i.e. not on the wheel) with positive and negative feedback.

    And fuck Tesla or any other manufacturer that wants to cheap out on a couple of bucks by removing them. Removing physical controls has obvious safety implications to drivers who are distracted trying to find icons on a tablet.

    just_change_it ,

    Don’t forget heating and cooling too. There’s a ton of things that are necessary to operate while the vehicle is in motion and should never be delegated to a touchscreen.

    I’m fine with touchscreens for in car entertainment for the back seats and maybe a passenger one with the appropriate shutter technology to block the driver’s view. None of those things are important for vehicle safety… but if there is a speaker that the passengers can control there needs to be a mute button for the driver to turn that shit off too :)

    LWD , (edited )

    I assume steering too, right?

    i.e. a “If you brick your car’s firmware, at least you can keep driving without unreasonable levels of difficulty or distraction” situation.

    bob_lemon ,

    If you brick your car’s firmware, at least you can keep driving without unreasonable levels of difficulty or distraction

    That’s impossible for a large portion of safety critical systems. Engines don’t run without a controller, they literally control the fuel injection valves (and have done so for decades). Brake systems have physical failsafes for when the electronics die (I.e. basic hydraulics without the booster), but you should not be able to move a vehicle without a working brake system after it stopped.

    The shitton of software running modern cars is there for good reason (at least large chunks of it), lots of which is safety, especially in the drivetrain.

    It’s completely different for infotainment, which I agree the vehicle should be able to function without (although the dashboard must work)

    Tlaloc_Temporal ,

    Do the ECU and the cabin equipment run on the same computer? Can you tune the vehicle from the driver’s seat?

    bitchkat ,

    I don’t really think that physical buttons on the dashboard are any less distracting. I still have take my eyes off the road to make sure I press the correct button. At least I can press right scroll wheel and give voice commands.

    Postcard64 ,

    You can just feel your way around. If all the buttons have the same shape, sure, you can’t, but they don’t have the same shape. For example, if one button has a little raised nub, like the F key in keyboards, you know immediately which button your finger is on.

    spikespaz ,

    This. I don’t need braille to know which button, it becomes muscle memory. A touch screen UI changes dynamically, so having muscle memory like for a physical momentary switch is impossible. And the tactile feedback is important too.

    arc , (edited )

    You don’t have to take your eyes off the road to operate a control. You might need to learn where some are in a new car, but then you instinctively reach for and operate the ones you use all the time. It’s muscle memory.

    This is not the case in a touch screen where controls may or may not be visible at any given time and you have no chance of operating them unless you physically look at the screen to control where you touch it. Maybe this arrangement is fine for some non-critical functions, but it absolutely isn’t for critical ones.

    What is worse is that cars from Tesla are even getting rid of indicator stalks which is fantasically dangerous. Maybe it’s not a big deal in the US where roundabouts are uncommon but they are all over the place in Europe and the rest of the world and lack of indicators will cause crashes and fatalities. Just so Elon Musk could save a few bucks on a stalk. And if that results in a lower EuroNCAP score then boohoo for him. I can imagine the raging and legal threats that he’ll engage in if that happens.

    chiliedogg ,

    Any controls that aren’t multimedia need to be separate from the infotainment system.

    I want to be able to change the radio unit without losing my air conditioner. I don’t want a cracked touchscreen to prevent me from turning on traction control.

    NikkiDimes ,

    Radio???

    FreshLight ,

    100% agreed! I don’t want to take my eyes off the road while driving. Just let me feel for the right button

    intensely_human ,

    Using my touch screen my sequence goes like this:

    • Glance once to locate the button I want to hit
    • Look back at road
    • Attempt #1 to hit the button: miss
    • Look back at the road
    • Attempt #2 to hit the button: miss
    • Look back at the road
    • Inhale Mr Miyagi breath, preparing to catch fly with chopsticks
    • Attempt #3 to hit the button: success!
    Devccoon ,
    @Devccoon@lemmy.world avatar

    Congratulations! You have now opened up the navigation tab, giving you convenient access to the many info and control screens for vehicle functions!

    Your next press will take you to the climate menu (if you hit the right spot this time) where you can browse a complicated set of icons and visual aids we made way too stylish and modern to understand at a glance. Eventually I’m sure you’ll figure out the very intuitive way that you can change the direction of AC airflow by swiping near the digital version of your vent and staring at it the whole time because there’s no feedback on how far you’re moving it except for the subtle, minimalist misty lines coming off the graphic~

    JTskulk ,

    This feature is unavailable while the vehicle is in motion (despite the pressure sensor detecting the passenger operating the shitty touch screen.)

    afraid_of_zombies ,

    According to a friend of mine the actor who played Mr. Miyagi would buy a lot of weed and sell joints he rolled himself to people who wanted a joint rolled by Mr Miyagi.

    I really freaken wish I had some evidence for this story since it is the weirdest one I know.

    intensely_human ,

    Man who roll joint with chopsticks accomplish anything!

    assassin_aragorn ,

    I used to think virtual automation and touchscreens were the coolest thing, until I started to do work designing an industrial process and considering safety. And ever since, I am completely in favor of physical switches and devices instead of virtual. So much more secure.

    Holyginz ,

    Honestly, I thought I would love touch controls in my car. But I drive a LOT for work and what I’ve learned is there are very few things as frustrating as being on a bumpy road trying to press a touch screen button and hitting every other button on the screen in the process.

    assassin_aragorn ,

    Yeah there’s that too. It really isn’t practical. At the very least you want some sort of tactile feedback so you have confirmation “yes I pressed the thing”

    raldone01 ,

    BuT tHeRe Is VoIcE cOnTrOl!!!

    Yes but if I have two friends on board that are talking I won’t say

    “SILENCE EVERYONE! I WILL NOW ATTEMPT TO ENTER THE NAVIGATIOM DESTINATION THREE TIMES WHICH WILL ALL FAIL!”

    And zooming the map on skodas with touch screens is just THE WORST.

    AlpacaChariot ,

    To be honest zooming isn’t great on my 2010 yeti with a physical zoom wheel either.

    These systems are always crap in cars because compared to modern phones they feel unbelievably slow; my yeti is now 14 years old but my phone is 2 years old so it’s a pretty unfair comparison!

    raldone01 , (edited )

    Well at some point I expect zooming a map to work without lag. I assumed we were talking about new cars here.

    Our other car is a 9 year old Mercedes and physical zoom is super nice there.

    The actual issue on the Skoda is not that it doesn’t zoom smoothly but that it stops following your car when you zoom. It instead stayes fixed.

    AlpacaChariot ,

    I don’t disagree, just pointing out a general issue with car nav systems

    raldone01 ,

    I understand. Android auto is quite nice. I don’t like that the assistant can’t be changed to another app. There should be an open protocol which allows any device to take over the cars multimedia systems.

    Churbleyimyam ,

    I’d rather have a keyboard mounted on the steering wheel and operate the car with bash aliases.

    bob_lemon ,

    Automotive vim when?

    ultra ,

    emacs auto

    lando55 ,

    alias emacs=/usr/bin/vim

    ultra ,

    no.

    evil mode

    lemmus ,
    @lemmus@lemmy.world avatar

    Tesla’s on-wheel turn signal buttons are criminally bad.

    derpgon ,

    So is their “swipe up or down to go forwards or backwards”, ON THE SCREEN.

    So is a missing shift stick, or the touch shift screen on the final roof.

    Semi-Hemi-Demigod ,
    @Semi-Hemi-Demigod@kbin.social avatar

    Hyundai's one-pedal mode that can bring a car to a complete stop without lighting the brake lights is even worse.

    danielfgom ,
    @danielfgom@lemmy.world avatar

    Great news. I wish they would also deduct stars if the heating/cooling controls are not physical too.

    EatATaco ,

    So one time someone broke into my car and tried to crowbar the radio out. They destroyed the whole dashboard, but failed to get the radio (it was nice of them to still take the face tho).

    What this resulted in all of the controls hanging out by their wires. Everything still worked, I just had to sift through the exposed wires, pick up the proper control and twist the dial or push the button. It was ridiculous but still miles better than touch screen for these things.

    Zink ,

    What kind of car? Sounds like good build quality in their wiring, lol.

    EatATaco ,

    99 honda Civic. I loved that car. Abused the hell out of it because I was young and dumb, barely took care of it, and it still made it to 225k miles. Probably would have lasted longer but I got into a bad accident with it and it started leaking oil after that.

    Zink ,

    Ah, no wonder.

    I had a 99 accord that I really liked. Manual transmission too. But it surprised me by blowing up its freaking engine not too far past 100k miles. (When my certified used warranty ran out, naturally) It blew out a cylinder valve hours from home, so I got back with a 3-cylinder that would stall if I let it idle. Just kept a foot on the gas at red lights. 😆

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