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Roku’s Ultimatum: Surrender Jury Trial Rights or Lose Access to Your TVs

Did your Roku TV decide to strong arm you into giving up your rights or lose your FULLY FUNCTIONING WORKING TV? Because mine did.

It doesn’t matter if you only use it as a dumb panel for an Apple TV, Fire stick, or just to play your gaming console. You either agree or get bent.

locuester ,

Did you read it? That first paragraph’s last sentence refers you to the section which tells you how to opt out.

L. 30-Day Right to Opt Out. You have the right to opt out of arbitration by sending written notice of your decision to opt out to the following address by mail: General Counsel, Roku Inc., 1701 Junction Court, Suite 100, San Jose, CA 95112 within 30 days of you first becoming subject to these Dispute Resolution Terms. Such notice must include the name of each person opting out and contact information for each such person, the specific product models, software, or services used that are at issue, the email address that you used to set up your Roku account (if you have one), and, if applicable, a copy of your purchase receipt. For clarity, opt-out notices submitted via any method other than mail (including email) will not be effective. If you send timely written notice containing the required information in accordance with this Section 1(L), then neither party will be required to arbitrate the Claims between them.

Badeendje ,
@Badeendje@lemmy.world avatar

It would be hilarious if a lot of people did this. And requested confirmation of receipt, and kept stalking them for these confirmations.

Maybe the letter should be on a0, and a separate one for each member of the household.

swearengen ,

I’m definitely doing it. Worth the cost of a stamp.

I don’t even have a Roku TV just an Ultra hooked up to a monitor so not a lot to lose but it’s the principal of the thing.

CosmicTurtle ,

I’ve requested confirmation and have only gotten it once or twice.

What I’ve started doing is actually just sending them their same exact terms via their corporate registered address (regardless of their instructions) with the arbitration clause and jury trial waiver and just about anything I don’t agree to removed. I tell them so long as they continue to provide the services to me, that they implicitly agree to the terms I’m sending them, with any further updates requiring them to send a registered (not certified) letter.

I intentionally do not provide any way for them to identify my account except for the return address.

I figured if I ever had to go to court, one of these things would happen:

  • judge finds that the original terms are enforceable, which means I’m no worse off
  • judge finds that my amended terms are enforceable, which means it worked
  • judge finds both terms unenforceable and I can continue to sue them

So far, no company has ever written me back or turned off my access to the site.

I suggest everyone do this because these forced arbitration clauses are very anti-consumer and we need to start clawing back our rights.

brbposting ,

🫡🫡🫡

Godspeed soldier

SkyNTP ,

Any reasonable judge will look at this clause and come to the conclusion that Roku is not acting in good faith. It’s so blatantly scummy to have a user have to mail in an opt out request on a consumable’s EULA update that the consumer never asked for long after the initial purchase.

scarabic ,

It’s enraging because information like the account email and TV model are sitting there available to the Roku OS. These could easily be appended to an email at the touch of a button, or transmitted to Roku Legal in an even more efficient programmatic way.

But noooooo, they need to force you to write the shit down with a pen because they know you won’t bother. Next time they want to sell you something, though? That’ll be one click.

I’d love to see a judge throw the book at some company for this kind of horseshit. Last time I refinanced my house I saw the page about opting out of marketing somewhere in the cloud of papers I signed, and meant to go back to it. I did, but it had such a complex table of options that I said to myself “I need to look at this with my glasses.” And then of course I forgot to do that and of course they sold my information everywhere. This is my own credit union that I’ve been with for 12 years, too.

secundnature , (edited )

What an absurd burden to put on someone. If I can opt in electronically, I should be able to opt out electronically.

Tja ,

Which is the law in countries with consumer protections.

essteeyou ,

Surprised they don’t want it hand-delivered at the top of a mountain somewhere.

brbposting ,

What an episode (Piped)

Croquette ,

That’s an overly complicated procedure to opt out.

You gotta opt in, then send a fucking letter with a bazillion nitty gritty information.

First of all, shit like this should be made an example of, and it should as easy to opt out than to opt in. Otherwise, it is predatory

dakial ,

In my pro consumer country there is an amazing law that states that any contract cancellation procedure cannot be more difficult than the contract sign-up procedure. This means it can’t be through different channels or have more steps.

KingThrillgore ,
@KingThrillgore@lemmy.ml avatar

I know what I’m doing tonight. Once I have the letter with all the details in alignment I’ll post an update here to help others.

fishos ,
@fishos@lemmy.world avatar

Got that letter?

starman2112 ,
@starman2112@sh.itjust.works avatar

At this point if you still have your television hooked up to the internet you deserve whatever these companies do to you. The TV would work just fine if you’d never told it about your wifi.

Gimpydude ,

A lot of TVs these days won’t start working without wifi. I set up a temporary ssid, set up the TV then delete it.

starman2112 ,
@starman2112@sh.itjust.works avatar

Hooking it up once is one thing, but actively using the Internet connectivity is just begging these companies to screw you over. That being said, I’d sooner bring it back to the store and get a different one than let it phone home even once.

GoodEye8 ,

Yes, let’s blame the users for having a shitty product. I’m not going to build a whole setup just so my wife could watch Netflix. Not to mention putting her through the troubles of having learn a new more convoluted way to do the same thing, and then I have to get a lecture on why I shouldn’t spend money on needless tech thingoes that make her live complicated. What’s your suggestion, get a new wife?

How about you show some compassion for OP. You don’t know his situation. Maybe he has a wife a home who will wring his neck if he doesn’t keep the TV connected. It’s not OPs fault Roku is a POS company, blame Roku not OP.

InvaderDJ ,

Compassion is definitely needed here the user shouldn’t be blamed.

But it is also true that essentially every smart TV is garbage. Never connect them to the internet or use their built in software. Something like an Apple TV will be faster, provide a better experience and be easier to use than any smart TV. Same with something like the nVidia Shield.

starman2112 ,
@starman2112@sh.itjust.works avatar

I just have too high an opinion of people to expect them not to be able to learn how to use a Chromecast or home theater PC. I’m not gonna assume that some guy’s wife is so tech illiterate that she can’t figure out how to do anything more complex than four arrows, an ok button, and a back button. If someone wants their TV connected to the internet that’s fine, but when you hinge all your media consumption entirely on one company, you must realize that that company now has control over your media consumption. It’s fine to complain when they change the deal, but it’s to be expected.

Reddfugee42 ,

Captain Edgy gets the edgy brownie!

starman2112 ,
@starman2112@sh.itjust.works avatar

If you think that comment was edgy then you should probably get your parents’ permission before getting on the internet

Reddfugee42 ,

Worked for you!

spujb ,

never blame the powerless when the one with all the power is calling the shots

doing so is called victim blaming and is generally frowned upon

starman2112 ,
@starman2112@sh.itjust.works avatar

You have the power to not use their services. The people with power are the government, the police, and billionaires. You can’t choose not to live in capitalism. You can choose to use something other than Roku.

tomkatt ,

Shit like this is why my LG C1 is restricted to LAN access only in my router (local network for automation purposes) and can’t communicate with the internet.

mods_are_assholes ,

As an IT guy: FUCK smart TVs, fuck them hard.

flambonkscious ,

…with a brick. Repeatedly

laughterlaughter ,

I will never buy a smart TV, ever. I don’t care if I’m left behind.

MeanEYE ,
@MeanEYE@lemmy.world avatar

Are there new TVs that are not smart?

laughterlaughter ,

There are, but they’re old or not of the best quality. Last time I had a Sceptre TV, and I had to use a sound bar because the speakers were awful. But it was as dumb as it could be, so I was happy with that.

Edit: The only reason I gave it up is because of lack of space in my new apartment. I miss that TV.

MeanEYE ,
@MeanEYE@lemmy.world avatar

Damn, so the solution is to buy whatever I want and castrate it with no access to internet.

laughterlaughter ,

Unfortunately. I personally prefer not to give money to those fuckers.

MeanEYE ,
@MeanEYE@lemmy.world avatar

Well, yeah, but eventually you’ll have to. I currently have old Toshiba LCD which is super awesome. Not thin but works like a charm and came with all the schematics and bill of materials so it can be easily repaired. Needless to say I don’t plan on replacing it, but panel itself has expiration date unfortunately.

laughterlaughter ,

No, I don’t really have to. I’ve lived without a TV for more than a year. I miss it sometimes, but it’s not like my life is falling apart because of it.

Awesome that you have a dumb TV. I’ll try and get me one as soon as I have extra space.

MeanEYE ,
@MeanEYE@lemmy.world avatar

Mine is used as extra display for gaming and watching movies. That’s it. However it is more comfortable to sit on sofa when watching.

starman2112 ,
@starman2112@sh.itjust.works avatar

Don’t worry about it, they sell the TVs at a loss because they expect to get the revenue back from ads. You’re costing them money when you buy one of their TVs.

A_Random_Idiot ,

only sceptre makes dumb TVs anymore, and their quality varries wildly

MeanEYE ,
@MeanEYE@lemmy.world avatar

That’s scary. Only solution then is to buy smart and castrate it.

A_Random_Idiot ,

What I did. I have two smart TVs.

Fuckers have never once been online. You can even go the extra mile and open them up and unplug the wifi antenna (or just remove the wifi card if its slotted and not integrated into the mainboard)

octopus_ink ,

I brought mine online long enough to do an initial firmware update. That was it. I may bring it online long enough to do another one, but I’m going to google first to be sure they haven’t done something like Roku here without my having heard about it.

A_Random_Idiot ,

I wouldnt even do that unless there is an actual issue you are having that can only be fixed with a firmware update.

nayminlwin ,

Lobotomize them after buying.

WaterWaiver ,

Ditto with my printer. Print over LAN: sure. Printer connect to internet: hell no, that’s the first-party version of printer malware.

dust_accelerator ,

Especially when printers ask you to waive your class action rights just like this.

Makes sense, when they illegally push straight up malware that sets the ink flow rate to 0 should non-geuine ink cartridges be detected. This will destroy/clog the print head if attempting to print for too long.

Yes, I reverse engineered your fucked up Linux 2.4 (!) based firmware, Epson. Your printer is printing nicely offline with refillable cheap ink. Fuck you, I won.

Sorry about the rant, it had become personal at one point.

WaterWaiver ,

Congrats :) The idea that a few software bits are between you and getting a pile of junk working is infuriating. Did you extract and modify an image from flash or find a way in live?

dust_accelerator , (edited )

I had a .bin where the change hadn’t been implemented and one after. Was using file carving tools as I was just trying to figure out what was going on. Probably spent too much time, but once I found out what it was doing, I was pretty mad. I tried to just corrupt the firmware to force a fallback to a “safe” state, but eventually I had to look into reverse engineering the binary that seemed to be controlling different things, such as the genuine ink check and things like that. Many hours of trial and error staring at the xxd and gdb output, semi randomly breaking things, until I seemed to break the right thing. Was bit tricky to get around the firmware signing, but eventually got that worked out too by tricking it into not checking (very old firmwares for that printer weren’t signed) and accepting the ‘new’ firmware, with a much higher version number, as that’s also one thing it checks to prevent downgrading.

Tools used as far as I remember were

  • binwalk,foremost, autopsy
  • radare2
  • This page I believe was helpful, at least i had it bookmarked
WaterWaiver ,

Nice, ty. I’ve only revenged PC firmware, not embedded, so I wouldn’t think of several of those tools.

I know a model of HP inkjet from my childhood that had a service/factory mode where ink checks were disabled. After years of claiming that its carts were empty I was suddenly able to print perfect full-colour pages. RIP HP Photosmart 3110

phreekno ,
@phreekno@lemmy.world avatar

I took the wifi chip and antenna right out of a roku TV. I don’t even want it broadcasting its MAC out to the world, fuck that

KingThrillgore ,
@KingThrillgore@lemmy.ml avatar

I wonder why Roku make you sign this agreement out of the blue. I think they’re about to drop either an acquisition announcement, or news they were hacked.

I of course signed it like an idiot. I hate this cyberpunk present.

archomrade ,

My money is on a data breech - happens all the damn time.

CptEnder ,

Man if a hacker wants to break into my Roku to watch my streams I don’t really mind. Would be kinda cool to see what their preferences are on what they watch. Just don’t use my profile, that’s an act of war.

starman2112 ,
@starman2112@sh.itjust.works avatar

Data breach doesn’t mean hackers know what you watch, it means hackers know your name, address, and payment info

CptEnder ,

Lmao it’s a joke bruh

LifeOfChance ,

Was it your or you’re 8 year old who was just trying to watch some cartoons? 🤔

You are right there is something coming though

irotsoma ,
@irotsoma@lemmy.world avatar

Every company has started doing that. Almost every EULA now has clauses forcing you to give up your right to class action lawsuits and jury trials and to use corporate-friendly mediation instead.

lolcatnip ,

Hasn’t that been a thing pretty much as long as EULAs?

irotsoma ,
@irotsoma@lemmy.world avatar

No, it’s been pretty common in the last decade or so. First they added mediation clauses mostly just to scare people into using mediation instead of suing. But once they realized that courts were enforcing the clauses even though most legal experts assumed that they weren’t valid since most people couldn’t reasonably expected to read EULAs much less understand them and they were being added to things that people didn’t reasonably expect to have complex legal implications, they realized they could put other stuff in there and have it enforced. So now there’s tons of shady stuff in some of them.

Same thing as those companies that would send you a check for like a dollar that looked like it came from a legit source, but really was a marketing campaign paying that legit source for their customer lists and to put their name on it, and in the signature line on the back they’d add a bunch of text saying you agreed to sign up for some expensive service or whatever. People would cash the check without realizing what it was and then the company would sign them up for something and it was allowed for a long time even though many legal experts said it shouldn’t be legally binding.

magnor ,
@magnor@lemmy.magnor.ovh avatar

The fact that this is actually legal makes me glad to live in the EU. Damn, this shit is bleak.

laughterlaughter ,

Is it really legal, though?

pleasejustdie ,

IANAL, so take this with a grain of salt, but from my understanding, Its legal, though it may be unenforceable. If I want to sue them, they will say I agreed to arbitration in the contract, I will ignore that and continue to file. They will counter-file that I agreed to arbitration by accepting the EULA and that the case should be dropped, I will counter-file that I only agreed to it under duress because it was either agree or throw away my TV and that the arbitration clause is invalid because of X, Y or Z. At this point either the Judge will decide to listen to arguments from both sides then make a decision or will decide based on the undisputed facts presented by both sides and will either invalidate the EULA and allow the lawsuit to continue, or will uphold the EULA and drop the case with prejudice, or will allow me to make another argument and drop the case without prejudice allowing me to re-file with a better case.

The issue is, is it worth it to spend that kind of time and money for it in the first place? If you don’t have an open and shut case and can’t file in a state where you can make Roku pay the legal fees, in general whatever you’re trying to accomplish will cost you more than just getting off their ecosystem, which is what they are counting on. Since you would have to sue them just to see if you can sue them, it just adds extra time, money, and effort into suing them that it is more likely to deter people from actually suing and instead choosing to arbitrate under their terms which, depending on the ethical considerations of the company, could be fair or it could be heavily skewed in their favor. At which point you can decide at that point if you should sue and then will also have any evidence acquired about an unfair arbitration in the filings as well.

Either way, the legality is perfectly legal to be in an EULA, its enforceability though is mostly only backed by how much time, money, and effort it would take to bypass it. Like if there is an open door with a sign saying “Please use next door” and the next door leads to the same place as the open door. Most of us will just use the next door because its not worth the effort to deal with whatever issue might occur if we used the open door. But if the “next” door is locked, we’d just go in the open door because its no longer worth the effort to deal with procedures the company wants.

laughterlaughter ,

Thanks. What a fucked up system, man.

Patch ,

It probably isn’t legal most places. EULAs are already considered fairly flimsy in terms of enforcement, but changing an EULA after you’ve already bought a device, in such a way as to reduce your statutory rights, is almost certainly a complete non-starter.

MeanEYE , (edited )
@MeanEYE@lemmy.world avatar

Watched the other day video about always online games being terminated and Ross, guy behind “Freeman’s mind” is starting world wide legal action against Ubisoft and some others. He talked specifically about EULAs in US and they are like promises from god. If you accept them suing the company for anything covered there becomes a nightmare. Here’s a link. It’s a bit longer watch, but worth it. But in short, in USA what can be written in EULA is almost unlimited. Example he gave was that you can accept for game developer to have the right to kill your dog if you buy their game and they would have a complete right to do so, you wouldn’t be able to call the cops on them for animal abuse until you disproved and had EULA brought down on court first.

Document he’s linking to which describes this whole mess in regards to games and pre-orders and similar. But also touches on EULAs.

Yarhar ,

“My child, a minor, clicked agree when trying to use the TV I paid for. I have never seen this EULA.”

buddascrayon ,

Yeah, I believe I heard there was a case that had proved that judges have no interest in holding people to EULAs.

jeremyparker ,

I don’t think anyone is allowed to take away your right to being a part of a class action lawsuit as a requirement to use a TV. Recent SCOTUS shenanigans aside, I can’t imagine a judge would let that fly.

FordBeeblebrox ,

Maybe those who sign up for warranty promos that often offer free gifts? Plenty more space for meditation language in the bottom of that EULA

Gork ,

Smart TVs were supposed to be better than dumb TVs.

Now it’s the complete opposite.

Max_P ,
@Max_P@lemmy.max-p.me avatar

I wish there were dumb options but since they’re all subsidised with loads of ads, they’re either unaffordable or plain unavailable. They just don’t make them for the consumer market anymore, there’s no demand for it. So they took advantage of that and market the dumb TVs as business TVs at huge markups, like 5+ grands for basic 4K no HDR no VRR no nothing, and they won’t even sell it to you without a registered business account.

WetBeardHairs ,

Those displays are not televisions - they are for menus at restaurants. They cost a fortune because they are low volume, high reliability devices that come with service contracts and repairable components.

SomethingBurger ,

They are. But not for customers.

Frozengyro ,

Technology in general is supposed to make our lives easier. It seems many things these days do the opposite.

stoly ,

Smart TV was always a dumb idea. Better to control your own equipment.

Technus ,

Worst part is, now you can’t find a dumb TV anymore. The closest thing out there are “commercial signage displays” which are just dumb TVs with limited inputs and usually without remotes, but 25-50% more expensive because “commercial” (and because they won’t be able to continue making money by showing you ads and selling your data) and a lot of retailers won’t let you order one without a business account, or force you to order in bulk.

And every Neanderthal I complain to is like “but smart TVs have so many more features,” like, bro, I can make any TV the smartest fucking TV in the world by plugging it into the desktop PC I’m gonna keep right next to it anyway. All the “smart” bullshit just gets in the way. I’ve yet to encounter a smart TV UI that didn’t require a dozen button presses to change inputs and spend two seconds or more re-drawing the UI with EVERY INPUT because they put the cheapest processors they can find in these pieces of shit.

LazaroFilm ,
@LazaroFilm@lemmy.world avatar

Computer monitors are dumb tv

OR3X ,

Good luck finding a 65 inch computer monitor

HerbalGamer ,
@HerbalGamer@sh.itjust.works avatar

Here you go.

AnxiousOtter ,

I mean, thanks for the link but, if you actually try to find it on Amazon for example it doesn’t exist. So that’s not terribly helpful.

Nuerion ,
@Nuerion@lemmy.world avatar

oh no its not on amazon it must not be real

HerbalGamer ,
@HerbalGamer@sh.itjust.works avatar

The thing is 5 years old so that’s hardly surprising. I just googled 65 inch monitor and this was the first hit.

barsoap ,

Just checked Geizhals and apparently there’s none currently, the largest is the HP Omen X, 64.5". Close enough though I’d say. There’s 55 monitors 46" and higher but only 7 52" and higher.

At that size I’m obliged to ask if you don’t want a projector instead.

VindictiveJudge ,
@VindictiveJudge@lemmy.world avatar

It’s also three times the price of a 65 inch 4k TV.

laughterlaughter ,

No, the 65 inch 4K TV is three times cheaper because of the smart features. They sell the data they collect from you, and the ads.

aniki ,

Projectors are so easy. Currently watching Hulu on an 85" screen.

acosmichippo , (edited )
@acosmichippo@lemmy.world avatar

as a projector owner myself, i would not say “so easy”. they are a lot more work to set up, are more unsightly in living spaces, require light control, require more maintenance and cleaning, and even after all that the picture quality is still never going to approach a decent HDR panel. It’s only really worth it if you need/want a 100”+ picture, otherwise you’d be better off with an 85” TV.

Chronographs ,

Not to mention many of the high end projectors now have the same smart tv features built in

FuglyDuck ,
@FuglyDuck@lemmy.world avatar

microcenter has some absurdly expensive monitors.

Yes. I want one. Not sure why. But I do.

jjsca ,

Show me a 50 inch computer monitor with speakers and multiple hdmi inputs, and I’ll agree with you.

barsoap ,

Here you are. Included everything 46"+ because 49" are common and the next category is 52" up where things get rare. Both of these are gigantic and have 4 HDMI ports. Neither have displayport which disqualifies them in my eyes because this kind of shit.

Why would you want speakers though. I mean computer monitors usually come with them but the less said about them the better.

frostysauce ,

Congratulations on finding a €1500 dumb TV.

barsoap ,

Skipping the first couple because they’re ultrawide (probably not the best for TV usage) the cheapest one is the GIGABYTE AORUS FO48U. 2xHDMI, 1x DisplayPort, 1xUSB-C, about a thousand euroons. Expensive? Well, it’s OLED. So is the equally-priced LG UltraGear OLED 48GQ900-B, Three HDMI plus DisplayPort.

Also they’re not dumb TVs they don’t come with tuners, a PCIe version will run you about a hundred bucks, plus the rest of your media server. Or something like 20 bucks (seriously) for a receiver, more like 60 if you want a triple-tuner (DVB-C/T2/S2) that runs Linux (double-check that the bootloader is unlocked, though, can’t be arsed to). And yes of course they’re more expensive they’re not cross-financed by showing you ads. Do you want a TV or a billboard?

cheese_greater ,

Any tv without internet access is a DumbTV™️, no?

mean_bean279 ,

Commercial displays cost more because backlight testing and ratings double or triple. You’re paying more for longer uptime since your display is likely to run 12+ hours a day straight and not for 1-2 hours a day with an occasional 8+ hour usage. You’re also paying actual cost, but a lot of it really has to do with testing and materials that are built to survive consistent and frequent usage, plus centralized management. Lots of people assume it’s the same shit, but it’s completely different and it shows when you buy a consumer off the shelf display and put it in production.

Ottomateeverything ,

I have no experience with them, but FYI a bunch of people were recommending sceptre for dumb TVs in other threads.

teamevil ,

They’re also brighter and don’t burn in as easily

Seasoned_Greetings ,

I’ve heard that if you want a dumb TV, you buy a smart TV with input priority on the hdmi and never connect to the internet.

How accurate is that?

I wouldn’t know, as I’ve been blessed with a couple of dumb tvs from the golden age of dumb tvs for the last 10 years.

moody ,

Some smart TVs need to be connected before they’ll even start.

The key thing is to make sure you look into that stuff before you buy.

My TV is from the before days, and when it dies I’m not sure what the plan will be. Possibly a large monitor at 3x the price.

grue ,

The key thing is to make sure you look into that stuff before you buy.

Or better yet, buy it and then return it as defective, ideally repeatedly and gathering a whole bunch of other people to do the same en masse, until companies start losing so much money on this shit that they’re forced to be less shitty.

Murdoc ,

If only they weren’t so heavy…

Spiralvortexisalie ,

Found the youngster or missed a sarcasm tag. I remember a time when my 50 inch was considered leading class for weighing “only” 60 lbs, my tvs before that one all weighed over 100 lbs (CRTs). I literally unironically can throw most tvs upto 65 inches just over my shoulder, and if the boxes weren’t so awkwardly big I could carry a few at a time. TVs may be a lot things but not heavy, most 43 inch tvs are under 20 lbs now.

natebluehooves ,

My hisense google tv connected to an open wifi network and updated without being told to. The update broke CEC and hdmi arc. I cannot adequately express my rage at this moment.

SpaceCowboy ,
@SpaceCowboy@lemmy.ca avatar

Can’t you plug in your computer into an HDMI port and simply not use the “smart” features?

zalgotext ,

In most cases, no. You have to use the built in “smart” software to change inputs.

SpaceCowboy ,
@SpaceCowboy@lemmy.ca avatar

That sucks. I guess I gotta keep my TV running as long a possible then. It’s a smart TV, but I can change ports without the smart features. In fact the smart TV part of it is basically like another port, but I have set to use HDM1 as the default when starting up and I never have to look at the smart interface. TV is over 5 years old now, the smart interface probably runs like shit by now.

Tja ,

Yes, you absolutely can. Or you can use pihole to block ads/updates. Or you can use a raspberry pi with kodi. Or a streaming stick. Or you can use it normally.

Just make sure you buy from a store with a return policy that let’s you test the TV for your use case. Which in the EU is any online retailer, for 14 days.

Redjard ,
@Redjard@lemmy.dbzer0.com avatar

There are tvs that wait a month before giving you a big manually dismissed popup about not being connected to the internet.

CrayonRosary ,

Sceptre makes dumb TVs.

RaoulDook ,

They are pretty decent too, for the price

RecallMadness ,

You can (or at least could) put Bravia TVs into “pro mode” and turn off all the shit.

Tja ,

So anybody who doesn’t have A FUCKING DESKTOP PC near their TV is a Neanderthal?

I have a smart TV from 2019 and it runs perfectly fine, it’s snappy and convenient. Switching inputs requires 2 button presses (3 if you don’t want to wait 3 seconds to auto-switch to the selected one) or I can automate it with home assistant for a “movie watching” scene for instance, for 0 button presses.

Plus you seem to completely misunderstand what digital signage TV are.

Fisch ,
@Fisch@lemmy.ml avatar

What I don’t get about smart TVs is why you can’t use it with your phone. That’s one of Kodi’s best features. You can just type using your phone keyboard. Typing with a TV remote is a fucking NIGHTMARE.

SeaJ ,

I have always opposed smart TVs. Most of my reasoning is because the UI is almost always dogshit slow because the hardware and software is thrown in as an afterthought. But I’ll add this to my reasoning for not getting a smart TV.

A signage TV with a streaming stick/box is perfectly fine for what I need. Jellyfin does not care what I’m playing.

Edit: Also, I did not even notice that there was no option to reject this. It is just a close button. There is no way this shit is enforceable.

BothsidesistFraud ,

I haven’t looked into it, but there’s got to be some open source firmware for a lot of these TVs, right? To improve the UI and remove all spyware and bloatware?

phoneymouse ,

I don’t connect my TV to the internet. Problem solved.

Wrench ,

I used to develop smart TV apps.

I still only own dumb TVs. I do not need that bloat.

Iamdanno ,

They are better, but you foolishly assumed that they meant better for the consumer, not better for the seller.

grue ,

The worst part is that all these Smart TVs run Linux, whose GPL license was explicitly designed to prevent this sort of user-hostile bullshit. Unfortunately, because the Linux contributors decided to stick with version 2 of the license instead of converting to version 3, it’s stuck with a loophole that allows companies to get away with this abuse.

It’s a goddamned travesty.

tabular , (edited )
@tabular@lemmy.world avatar

The GPL ensures user software freedom for us to remove this crap by requiring them to share their source code. Using Linux doesn’t mean they have to follow the GPL unless they make modifications to it.

You need every software contributors to agree to a license change unless the license gives an upgrade option. Most contributors had no choice but to use GPLv2 as it wasn’t “GPLv2-or-later” to start with, maybe it was posdible at one point but they didn’t want to anyway.

grue ,

The GPL ensures user software freedom for us to remove this crap by requiring them to share their source code. Using Linux doesn’t mean they have to follow the GPL unless they make modifications to it.

That’s not quite the issue.

First of all, the GPL requires you to make the source available if you distribute the software, whether you modify it or not. And in fact TV manufacturers do provide source code, if you dig through their websites to find the disused basement lavatory with the sign saying “beware of the leopard.”

Second, the issue is that the source code isn’t actually going to work if you try to compile it and install it on the device, because they have DRM to prevent anything other than what the manufacturer has cryptographically signed from being allowed to run. See also: Tivoization.

tabular ,
@tabular@lemmy.world avatar

That’s correct. My response was intended to point out proprietary software can run on Linux and GPL doesn’t apply.

I have read arguments in favor of GPL v2 over v3 and found them unconvincing.

KingThrillgore ,
@KingThrillgore@lemmy.ml avatar

Linux will never go to GPLv3 because Linus is pussywhipped by the Foundation and it’s sponsors

mods_are_assholes ,

There is nothing so pure and good that rampant greed can’t ruin it.

Mango ,

Always was. Just took a little time for the reasons to be apparent to more people.

Lutra ,

What about the one sided ability to change a contract??

A year from now Roku pop up says “Click to Accept” , the text says **"this contract means you’ll have to give us your first born child? ** My reasoning says if they can do one then they can do the other. There is nothing that would prevent them from adding ‘fees’, or ‘subscriptions’ or simply turning off the device. (!)

This is egregious. We bought something. In normal commerce, the contract was set in stone at that moment. The seller can’t roll up 2 years later, change the contract, force you to agree before you can use your device, and then say , well maybe if you beg, you can opt out.

Blackmist ,

The real question is what is Roku doing that might necessitate a jury trial in the first place.

The answer is spying and selling all your data to advertisers. Using ACR they can tell everything passing through that box and display adverts accordingly. Just what you want when watching a DVD.

Postreader2814 ,

I hope they like watching me masturbate to porn on my couch.

RagingRobot ,

I don’t think they can see that but by all means keep going

Blackmist ,

But if he’s watching the porn on a Roku TV, they’ll know what porn it is and what to recommend next.

Patches ,

What are you doing Step-Roku?

teamevil ,

Ohhhh…what site can I see that? Let’s plan a sad afternoon together!

intensely_human ,

Pray they don’t alter it further

elbrar ,
@elbrar@pawb.social avatar

My muscle memory is to hit power-right-ok to open youtube when I turn the tv on, most of the time without looking at it. The other day, it ended up still sitting on the default menu item after I did that. This must have popped up then. Something that can be dismissed without ever actually seeing it is certainly not enforceable.

Sami_Uso ,

I got this yesterday, as well. There’s no way this could hold up legally, right? Like my 7 year old could easily just click through that, no way this is a legally binding contract to forfeit jury rights and right to sue.

…right?

Jackie_meaiii ,

It’s not enforceable at all, but it’s an extra step of litigation that the average consumer can’t afford to wade through

Chocrates ,

Are you sure it isn’t enforceable? Forced arbitration clauses are very common and I think pretty solid legally.

NoSpiritAnimal ,
@NoSpiritAnimal@lemmy.world avatar

The FAIR Act prohibits mandatory arbitration agreements for employment, consumer, antitrust, or civil rights disputes. The FAIR Act also protects the rights of individuals and small businesses to participate in joint, class, or collective actions related to such disputes.

Chocrates ,

FAIR Act

badass, but I am not sure the FAIR act was signed into law. I am finding conflicting information www.govtrack.us/congress/bills/117/hr963

CosmicCleric ,
@CosmicCleric@lemmy.world avatar

www.congress.gov/bill/117th-congress/…/963

Chocrates ,

Yeah so it has passed the house but the Senate hasn’t voted on it and therefore the President hasn’t signed it and it isn’t law?

CosmicCleric ,
@CosmicCleric@lemmy.world avatar

www.congress.gov/bill/…/all-actions?overview=clos…

This is the latest entry …

Received in the Senate and Read twice and referred to the Committee on the Judiciary.

01189998819991197253 ,
@01189998819991197253@infosec.pub avatar

Dated 03/21/2022. It’s been almost exactly two years since this motion. It’s not going anywhere. Government sucks.

CosmicCleric ,
@CosmicCleric@lemmy.world avatar

Dated 03/21/2022. It’s been almost exactly two years since this motion. It’s not going anywhere. Government sucks.

You never know, but if you stay cynical, stay beaten down, then definitely nothing is going to change.

Call your house representative member. Let them know you know of the existence of this, and would like to see it move forward.

If everyone did that, instead of just posting on Reddit/Lemmy, they’d see change.

01189998819991197253 ,
@01189998819991197253@infosec.pub avatar

You are completely correct. Before I do that, I would need to read the whole charter, to make sure they didn’t sneak anything nefarious into it as they like to do. But then, yes, calling the reps should help some. Governments still suck, though. Most are no longer for the people en mass. Still, though, while governments may suck, they are made of people, and still have a people’s heart, even if it has to be helped to grow a few sizes.

CosmicCleric ,
@CosmicCleric@lemmy.world avatar

Before I do that, I would need to read the whole charter, to make sure they didn’t sneak anything nefarious into it as they like to do.

This comment has a direct link to the agreement that you can review, as well as the comment itself points out two clauses that might help you.

brianorca ,

There have been US court cases where arbitration clauses were voided if they weren’t prominently visible outside the box before purchase. Dang vs Samsung

phx ,

Before purchase seems to be the big thing. LG is also under fire for this regarding fridges as they put it on the box but typically that wasn’t seen prior to purchase (the fridge models on the floor are unboxed) and many people use delivery companies that do the unboxing before the item gets to the consumer.

ILikeBoobies ,

It’s meant to scare people from attempting anything

MaddieTian ,

What if you never connect it to the internet? Surely then it’s a just a dumb TV.

Reddfugee42 ,

You’d never get this update…

dgriffith ,

Send them a letter via registered mail stating that upon receipt of said letter they waive their right to waive your rights.

nonfuinoncuro ,

That sounds like some sovereign citizen thing

dgriffith ,

Similar things have worked in countries that aren’t so under the thrall of the mighty corporation. I recall some guy in … Russia? who struck out and reworded a bunch of penalty clauses for a credit card offer he got and mailed it back to the bank, which accepted it and issued the card. Cue much hilarity as he racked up a bunch of charges and then got it thrown out in court. (Actually, here’s a link.. They eventually settled out of court for an undisclosed sum.)

Anyway, I live in Australia so my response to all these kinds of attempts at removal of my consumer rights is a drawn out “yeah, nahhhh”

sverit ,

Uno reverse card

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