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arin ,

Independent party exist, we need to wake up and vote for one great candidate that is not either of the two they present to US

wieson ,

It’s best to start doing that in county and state elections first.

ZILtoid1991 ,

I found your ballot box:

https://lemmy.world/pictrs/image/1b9a8271-6016-42e0-b975-96b931d01400.jpeg

arin ,

This way of thinking is how we end up watching this shitshow debate

zarkony ,

Unfortunately, that isn’t feasible in the current system. In first past the post every vote is damage control at best.

We need ranked choice voting everywhere before people will even consider a third party.

Tabula_stercore ,

Piss the fuck off you yanks

AeonFelis ,

Yea, sorry, no. You Americans cannot be trusted with something so important.

Mzpip ,

I’m right at the border (Windsor) and I don’t want to live that close to Gilead (which will happen if Trump wins).

clot27 ,
@clot27@lemm.ee avatar

Biden was horrible, he is old, he should retire. (Saying this as an outsider) I have not much knowledge of US politics, just saw debate because it was viral

MrMobius ,

It’s not that us outsiders like to watch your elections closely. But we need to since they’re gonna have a big impact on the world we live in, whether we like to admit it or not.

_g_be ,

Americans, humble? We could never

match ,
@match@pawb.social avatar

If you can figure out a way to cut America down to size, please fucking do, it’s not healthy letting us be Too Big To Fail

MrMobius ,

There’s no need for that, unless parts of the US want independence, like some Scots regarding the UK. But break it all up because it’s too messy, not healthy? That’s what critics of the EU or the UN also say. Myself I’ve always been an advocate of unity and collaboration since it’s the only way we’re gonna be able to solve climate change and every other major world crisis.

match ,
@match@pawb.social avatar

You might be surprised how often Americans fantasize about parts of the country getting independence, not to mention the autonomous indigenous regions (which would always welcome more autonomy).

Tattorack ,
@Tattorack@lemmy.world avatar

Unfortunately, when America farts we’re all forced to smell it. America wants Europeans to stay out of American business, buts that’s rather difficult to do when that country demands to be the center of attention.

can ,

And all that hot air rises to Canada.

samus12345 ,
@samus12345@lemmy.world avatar

America wants Europeans to stay out of American business

I don’t. Please send help!

AeonFelis ,

Last time Europe sent people to “help” America it didn’t end well…

samus12345 ,
@samus12345@lemmy.world avatar

Times have changed a lot since then.

Moorshou ,

I concur Please help

not communisim plz

Tattorack ,
@Tattorack@lemmy.world avatar

Europe is far from being communist. XD

raspberriesareyummy ,

we’re our own kind of fucked up over here :( Except the Finns, the Finns are cool.

Tattorack ,
@Tattorack@lemmy.world avatar

Really? Because every time the weather in Finland goes about 10°C I hear my Finnish friends complain like it’s the apocalypse. XD I’m just glad Denmark is having a decent summer this year.

raspberriesareyummy ,

I’m a big fan of any country voting against the populist trend, so I may ask for asylum in Finland eventually. Although, despite my motivation to learn new languages, that might be a challenge :)

Tattorack ,
@Tattorack@lemmy.world avatar

Scandinavia has always been very left side, so it comes to low surprise to me that the left won the European election in Denmark, despite the right trend in the rest of Europe.

However, I will add that right wing Europe is still pretty left from America. Take Geert Wilders, the new guy from the Netherlands. The policies he wants to enact are stricter laws, more difficulty for immigrants, a stronger police force, street curfews for teenagers (real old man yells at cloud energy), and withdrawal from the climate agreement. All very right wing.

But… He also wants better funding for hospitals and schools, higher wages for nurses and teachers, more robust free healthcare system, hard caps and regulations on the increasing housing prices, more affordable housing, a more efficient and cost effective energy grid. If an American politician starts talking about these things they’ll be called a communist!

raspberriesareyummy ,

Scandinavia has always been very left side

Maybe from a hard neo nazi perspective. Denmark and Sweden especially have right-wing extremist parties (Denmark Democrats + New Right + Danish People’s Party together ~= 14.3%, Sweden Democrats 17.5%) with a voter base that has been established over a longer time. The German right wing populists have risen to that level only in recent elections, which is frightening. Geert Wilders is not “the new guy” from the Netherlands, he’s been a populist rightwing piece of shit for decades. Unfortunately, the average Dutch person over 40 / outside university towns is also quite racist under the surface - I lived there for 4 years, speak fluent Dutch with a German accent and since they felt “safe” with their bigotry around me, I have heard enough racist and sexist bullshit from “average middle class” Dutch people that I didn’t feel comfortable in that country anymore. The young people in urban centres are okay, but unfortunately those are not a large enough demographic.

As for comparing with the US - maybe not a good idea: Even young US americans see the democrats for the corporate shills they are, and know that they have to vote for them just to prevent a Handmaid’s Tale Season 6 becoming a documentary.

The US are the scary example for Western Europe as “this will happen here if you don’t pay attention”. No one in Europe will be able to say “I didn’t know” when we slip into a totalitarian regime filled with hate and controlled by corporations, because it might be happening in front of our eyes with a ~10 year headstart in the US. I just hope that’s not what is going to happen in the end, but things have progressed far too much into the worst dystopian future thinkable for this century.

undergroundoverground ,

We did but then you lot started ringing bells.

Tbf, were fucked too.

Kaput ,

Unfortunatly it seems america just shat it’s pant.

match ,
@match@pawb.social avatar

I’ve been begging for europeans to export unions and labor rights to America for years, we meed help

abbiistabbii ,
@abbiistabbii@lemmy.blahaj.zone avatar

yeah but your family seems to make your problems our problems so we wanna know just how fucked we are.

Excrubulent ,
@Excrubulent@slrpnk.net avatar

Yeah it’s like listening to your mobster neighbours fighting. It’s their business but anyone can catch a stray.

NegativeInf ,

The answer is always “Very.”

gruvn ,

Will this ever not be appropriate? https://lemm.ee/pictrs/image/7aabf959-faa0-48b0-81dd-92b6f789765c.jpeg

AngryCommieKender ,

Are the mooses swimming in the pool a good thing or a bad thing? Or maybe just a weird thing?

I don’t know how to pluralize moose

jeff ,
@jeff@programming.dev avatar

The plural of moose is meese.

spoiler/s for non-native English speakers

Moose ,
@Moose@moose.best avatar

A majestic flock of meese sounds better that just moose. How many moose? 1, 5, 20? You just don’t know. I’m currently in contact with my MP to resolve this issue, this is very important to me.

jeff ,
@jeff@programming.dev avatar

Wow, I didn’t expect an expert to chime in.

threelonmusketeers ,

Hang on, there’s an entire moose Lemmy instance?

lewdian69 ,

A møøse once bit my sister. No realli!

samus12345 ,
@samus12345@lemmy.world avatar

She was Karving her initials on the møøse with the sharpened end of an interspace tøøthbrush given her by Svenge - her brother-in-law - an Oslo dentist and star of many Norwegian møvies: “The Høt Hands of an Oslo Dentist”, “Fillings of Passion”, “The Huge Mølars of Horst Nordfink”.

Excrubulent ,
@Excrubulent@slrpnk.net avatar

MOOSEN

Mossheart ,

If goose are geese, moose must be meese.

samus12345 ,
@samus12345@lemmy.world avatar

Serious answer: the plural of “moose” is “moose,” not “mooses.”

odium ,

Octopus - octopi
Cactus - cacti
Moose - Mi

AngryCommieKender ,

Moose doesn’t have a “U”

odium ,

Sounds close enough

*ymmv by accent

saigot ,

yeah but that kiddie pool is being rented out for 1500/mo

CancerMancer ,

Yeah and you’re getting renovicted so they can split all the bedrooms up and double the occupancy (and rent)

Cataphract ,

something doesn’'t feel right…

https://lemmy.ml/pictrs/image/37dd59c9-0746-4c8f-af7f-83cebb538604.jpeg

wafflez ,

Someone pls explain

Fuckfuckmyfuckingass ,
@Fuckfuckmyfuckingass@lemmy.world avatar

Canada is north of America. North is typically depicted as being up, or on top.

SparrowRanjitScaur , (edited )

Ya, except now that it’s upside down it’s more Australia than Canada.

wafflez ,

Thank you

exanime ,

We wish… the good/bad neighbour analogy is very apt here; whatever happens in the USA spills over here all the time.

We are about to enter our own Trump shit show when PP is elected next year.

CancerMancer ,

The worst part about the politics here in Canada is that the Liberals always spend years setting up the layup that the Conservatives use to dunk on Canadians. This round is going to feature a whole host of anti-competitive business, bad trade deals, media favouritism, privatization, waves of attacks on worker’s rights… all this and more thanks to the moves set up by the Liberals doing things like refusing to stop the Rogers/Shaw purchase, the failure to make deals with other countries, setting up media and “CanCon” subsidies that favour big media companies, and the intentional attacks on the efficiency and effectiveness of public services.

We are so fucked.

A_Random_Idiot ,

I dont know, I dont think Canada has much room to throw bricks in glass houses at the moment.

MicrondeMMMMMMM ,
@MicrondeMMMMMMM@lemmy.blahaj.zone avatar

As a french person we have bigger fishes to fry lmao 😂 (I might live in a fascist state soon™)

AngryCommieKender ,

As an American, I feel ya.

seejur ,

As an Italian person, we are already there…

can ,

How are you coping?

seejur ,

At least for now it’s not openly trying to destroy the democratic apparatus, like Trump did. That’s my only solace. But before singing their praise let’s wait a couple of years… You never know

can ,

Stay vigilant.

CptEnder ,

Oof so you think Macron pulled a David Cameron and shot himself in the foot with the snap election and the RN party gonna sweep? Man so sorry our shitty alt right politics are infecting you guys too.

Noodle07 ,

At least the left is doing something, I just hope it’s enough :x

MicrondeMMMMMMM ,
@MicrondeMMMMMMM@lemmy.blahaj.zone avatar

My hope is that the NFP will get to the second round and then everyone votes for them against the RN, something similar will happen but victory depends on if macron asks people to vote against the alt right

uis ,

Well, France is known for their national holiday: revolution

trolololol ,

Time to start a new Republic. 5th is the charm number. I guess.

Asafum ,

We’re so fucked it’s absolutely insane.

I thought Trump had a chance before, but now… My god Biden embarrassed the shit out of himself… Fuck the goddamn DNC for condemning us by REFUSING to have primaries… Yeah it’s the tradition because usually the incumbent has a chance, but 90472828 year old Biden? Ffs…

Yes Trump is old too but it was plain as day how much more lucid trump is than biden…

Soulg ,

I see so many people screaming that primaries should have been held, especially today.

Biden would have easily won the primaries.

AngryCommieKender ,

The only reason I agree with this is that I was still living in the Midwest during the 2016 primary. I moved to California during August of that year. Time after time, I got told by Midwestern democrats that Bernie just wasn’t electable / was too progressive. The coasts would have primaried Biden, but flyover country would have messed it up.

dodgy_bagel ,

Hmm…

https://lemmy.blahaj.zone/pictrs/image/812aa239-ac7e-43f2-b626-94ac08b1a2e3.jpeg

AngryCommieKender ,

Iowa, North Dakota, New York, and Massachusetts are the only ones that really surprise me in that grouping.

Asafum ,

NY isn’t that keen on progressive politics outside NYC. Long Island is an extremely populated part of NY and it’s basically Trumpland and “moderates” out here, more Trump the more east you go. “Greater” NY is also pretty red aside from the larger cities. It doesn’t really surprise me that much unfortunately :(

PythagreousTitties , (edited )

He did win the primary in states that had them. There’s no if about it. Unfortunately.

skulblaka ,
@skulblaka@sh.itjust.works avatar

He was the only option on my primary lmao

PythagreousTitties ,

The problem with Biden is they gave it to him because “he deserved it”. Life long politician. Vice president. That’s the only real reason the DNC handed the keys to him. It’s a fucking job promotion.

The next election cycle is going to be interesting.

ricecake ,

Does it really count as “lucid” if you enunciate your lies, fabrications, misrecollections about… everything?

Revonult ,

For his voters, his lies and fabrications are the truth. They don’t listen to fact checking because they are conditioned to see it as fake and a goverment ploy to fool them.

ricecake ,

True. But they were going to have the same criticism of Biden regardless.

It’s part of the reason I didn’t even watch. Looking over the polling, the debate didn’t really change anyone’s opinions on anything to any significant degree.

Asafum ,

I don’t think it has been long enough to have gathered enough data on that. Just watching it myself I could clearly see a low information voter seeing Trump as a more fit choice as Biden struggled to even form sentences :(

ricecake ,

They did a lot of the pre-selection of people beforehand. The headline most places are running with is “flash poll says trump won”, but if you actually read the conclusions, it’s that “flash poll says trump won, more Republicans watched the debate by about a ten percent margin, and no one changed their opinions about fitness for office or who they’re voting for”.

Knock_Knock_Lemmy_In ,

No-one is going to switch sides, but this performance may affect turnout.

CancerMancer ,

What the polling likely isn’t capturing is how many people will ultimately choose not to vote out of despair, and that was the real threat the whole time.

ricecake ,

Oh, definitely. Not just possible, they weren’t even looking for that. They were entirely looking for what the debate did to preferences and opinions directly about the candidates.

I mostly brought it out as an example of the headline not capturing the whole message of how it impacted voters. Or didn’t impact, rather.

Asafum ,

It was a goddamn travesty that there was no fact checking by the button pushers moderators.

Everything was allowed to stand as fact. It was disgusting :(

Mossheart ,

Loud and lying every second word != lucid.

samus12345 ,
@samus12345@lemmy.world avatar

No. He was not lucid, just loud.

pancakes ,
@pancakes@sh.itjust.works avatar

This might be a hot take but any leadership selection where candidates are ranked in terms of how lucid they are is a bad time for all involved.

bizzinho ,

Being lucid is supposed to be a minimum requirement to even apply. But here we are.

cumskin_genocide ,

I need to shake the hands of potential presidents before I can make any judgements on who to vote for.

Edge004 ,

Hank?

cumskin_genocide ,

Yessir, I sell propane and propane accessories. Ronald Reagan was the best president we ever had.

samus12345 ,
@samus12345@lemmy.world avatar

https://y.yarn.co/454fc1f3-c0e5-481b-8f71-3a36cd82d612_text.gif

brucethemoose ,

Yeah, I mean we’re like lobsters being slow boiled.

This whole situation is mad, but it feels plausible because it’s been ratcheted up so gradually.

Can you imagine the country’s reaction if they say this 2 decades ago?

Mzpip ,

Yes Trump is old too but it was plain as day how much more lucid trump is than biden…

And also an unrepentant crook and liar. Who also dreams of being a dictator and getting revenge on his “enemies”.

Asafum ,

Preaching to the choir, but I’m worried about the ignorant people that simply don’t know that about him. All they see is an old bumbling feeble man vs a “strong man.” :(

Mzpip ,

And unfortunately, the media is not informing people. I can’t believe there was no question last night about Project 2025. Just unbelievable.

Plus no fact checkers. Again, unbelievable.

recapitated ,

For sure. It’s a shame that being correct isn’t the strategy for electoral politics.

p5yk0t1km1r4ge ,
@p5yk0t1km1r4ge@lemmy.world avatar

Yeah, this is not looking good, and I’m not impressed

menemen ,
@menemen@lemmy.world avatar

This is comparable to a loud family feud carried out on the streets with yelling and throwing stuff at one another and then yelling at the shocked onlookers to move away.

JusticeForPorygon ,
@JusticeForPorygon@lemmy.world avatar

We’re the family that gets kicked out of the Applebee’s for having a very loud and emotional fight while some other family is trying to celebrate their kid’s 8th birthday

dumbass ,
@dumbass@leminal.space avatar

Nope, you can’t stand there for generations going “LOOK AT ME! LOOK AT ME!” Then get shitty when we do, we want to watch you drive that burning bus into the the ocean.

Donkter ,

We’re literally the family with the drunk uncle who’s really fun at parties but now the alcoholism has caught up and he just gets sad and angry when he gets drunk.

ivanafterall ,
@ivanafterall@lemmy.world avatar

We’re Amy Winehouse/Lindsay Lohan/Britney Spears. We love(d) the limelight, but it’s not so great when we’re spiraling downward.

AngryCommieKender ,

Elvis Presley. We’re currently in the fat Vegas years. We should probably stay away from submarine sandwiches, and bathtubs.

BigBananaDealer ,
@BigBananaDealer@lemm.ee avatar

what is americas death on the toilet going to be?

AngryCommieKender ,

An absolute shitshow

LordSinguloth ,

It’s just a face, and doesn’t usually represent the people.

Prez has little power when compared to most world leaders. Their lead is more of a cultural one.

So to say, it’s really not so violently serious

AngryCommieKender ,

I wish Prez had been real, and not just a Sandman president.

match ,
@match@pawb.social avatar

Absolutely fair play and you are statistically likely to be in a country we’ve wronged so I won’t begrudge you the schadenfreude

Yerbouti ,

I will keep repeating this, Biden will be the reason Trump gets reelected. If he loves his country he needs to leave right fucking now. Democrats like him and Clinton are addicted to power. Bernie Sanders could have beaten Trump in both election but the democrats circles of power made sure to get the candidate they wanted. Old fool.

psycho_driver ,

Sanders wouldn’t stand a chance. Too many moderate Democrats would be terrified of the scary socialist madman.

SuddenDownpour ,

“The scary socialist madman” accompanied by the Democratic Party apparatus? A presidential candidate Sanders along with a moderate liberal VP would have gotten both the traditional Democratic vote (as long as the party collaborated with him, rather than giving him the Corbyn treatment, which I don’t trust liberals not to do) and a considerable chunk of the electorate who doesn’t feel represented by either party. The day you guys understand that you don’t have to fight the Republicans in traditional terms, but rather, to change the coordinates of the fight, you’ll force Republicans to choose between evolving or getting buried. But the real problem by this point is whether it is too late.

SupraMario ,

Most of this country is centrist, so no unfortunately sanders would have lost to trump.

mberger ,

Can you guys just put obama back in? I would unironically say thanks. It would be poetic.

the_crotch ,

Yeah there’s still a few doctors without borders hospitals he hasn’t bombed yet.

ThisIsAManWhoKnowsHowToGling ,
@ThisIsAManWhoKnowsHowToGling@lemmy.dbzer0.com avatar

No, there’s an amendment in our consimtituion that says a president can only be in office for two terms total. The only president who evaded this was FDR and he’s still villainized to this day.

Actually. I’m pretty sure hes the reason that amendment got passed.

absentbird ,
@absentbird@lemm.ee avatar

Before FDR it was just a tradition, started by George Washington. Personally I think FDR deserves a pass, he got us out of the great depression and through WW2, it would have been hard to have a leadership change in the midst of that turmoil.

ThisIsAManWhoKnowsHowToGling ,
@ThisIsAManWhoKnowsHowToGling@lemmy.dbzer0.com avatar

Totally agree. But imagine a 4-term Obamna presidency, with the orange avatar of conservative rage building in strength and gathering malice for 16 years instead of 8.

absentbird ,
@absentbird@lemm.ee avatar

I am pro term limits, but you’re kinda making a good counter point. Eight more years of Obama instead of Trump and Biden… Doesn’t seem that bad. The conservatives went ballistic anyway, at least we’d have reproductive rights and better healthcare. I’m certain Obama would have been a lot better at managing COVID and the BLM protests. He was pro ceasefire in Gaza way before Biden too. Idk, for all his flaws, Obama seems better than what we got in his place.

ThisIsAManWhoKnowsHowToGling ,
@ThisIsAManWhoKnowsHowToGling@lemmy.dbzer0.com avatar

I would have loved it too. But the backlash would be intense

absentbird ,
@absentbird@lemm.ee avatar

Fair enough, but the backlash from 8 years was already beyond the pale.

p5yk0t1km1r4ge ,
@p5yk0t1km1r4ge@lemmy.world avatar

No. Trust me, this would be amazing but he cannot legally run again :(

mortemtyrannis ,

lol at thinking Americans are mostly centrists…

acetanilide ,

Most Americans I know think they’re centrists, even if they support either major party… I’m an American so I know a few Americans lol

SupraMario ,

Lol at thinking Americans lean hard left or right

Montagge ,

Bernie ain’t winning shit at a national level

ricecake ,

People keep saying Bernie could have won, but he didn’t beat Clinton.

Knock_Knock_Lemmy_In ,

Sanders and Clinton didn’t play on a level field.

ricecake ,

Like what? Did she get votes for him thrown out?

People have been saying for years that she had an advantage and so it wasn’t fair, but those advantages seem to ignore that more people voted for her.

He was an independent running as a Democrat, and then claiming it’s unfair when the Democratic party was more aligned with the person who had always been a Democrat.

Knock_Knock_Lemmy_In ,

those advantages seem to ignore that more people voted for her.

How can that be ignored it is the conclusion of the argument. Those advantages meant more people voted for her.

He was an independent running as a Democrat,

Listen dear, all politicians who want to be president are independents running as Democrats/Republicans.

claiming it’s unfair when the Democratic party was more aligned with the person who had always been a Democrat.

The whole point of a primary is to determine who the democratic party is more aligned with. It is unfair to determine that in advance.

ricecake ,

So what were the advantages? The usual one I hear listed is superdelegates, which doesn’t matter if more people voted for the winner, or that they didn’t proactively inform his campaign about funding tricks that the Clinton campaign already knew about.

Are you saying that Clinton was an independent who just happened to align with the party for her entire political career?

I’m not sure you know how political affiliation or “people” work. Being a member of the party for decades vs being a member for months matters. Those are called “connections”, and it’s how most politicians get stuff done: by knowing people and how to talk to them.

The point of a primary is to determine who the candidate is, not who the party is more aligned with. Party leadership will almost always be more aligned with the person who has been a member longer, particularly when that person has been a member of part leadership themselves. It’s how people work. You prefer a person you’ve known and worked with for a long time over a person who just showed up to use your organization, and by extension you, for their own goals.
We have rules to make sure that those unavoidable human preferences don’t make it unfair.

The Obama campaign is a good example. He didn’t have the connections that Clinton did, so party leadership favored her. Once they actually voted, he got more so leadership alignment didn’t matter and he was the candidate. He then worked to develop those connections so that he and the party were better aligned and work together better, and he won. Yay!

So what rules did they break for Clinton? What advantages did she have over Sanders that she didn’t have over Obama?
Which of those advantages weren’t just "new people to the party didn’t know tools the party made available?”

Knock_Knock_Lemmy_In ,

So what were the advantages?

Debbie Wasserman Schultz, chairwoman of the Democratic Party, was found to have sent an email during the primary election saying Mr Sanders “would not be president”

There were six primaries where ties were decided by the flip of a coin — and Clinton won every single one. The odds of that happening are 1 in 64, or less than 2 percent

The usual one I hear listed is superdelegates, which doesn’t matter if more people voted for the winner,

superdelegates system favoured Clinton by pre-announcing their support, giving Clinton a massive early lead.

or that they didn’t proactively inform his campaign about funding tricks that the Clinton campaign already knew about.

Clinton bought the DNC by paying off the debt created after Obama.

Are you saying that Clinton was an independent who just happened to align with the party for her entire political career?

I’m saying she doesn’t align and would happily run as an independent if she thought she would be elected.

The point of a primary is to determine who the candidate is, not who the party is more aligned with.

“The party” is the people who vote in the primary.

Party leadership will almost always be more aligned with the person who has been a member longer, particularly when that person has been a member of part leadership themselves.

Party leadership is not the party.

It’s how people work. You prefer a person you’ve known and worked with for a long time over a person who just showed up to use your organization, and by extension you, for their own goals.

Exactly. This is why the primaries were rigged in Clinton’s favor and Sanders and his supporters were right to claim unfairness.

We have rules to make sure that those unavoidable human preferences don’t make it unfair.

Those rules were broken. Debbie Wasserman Schultz has to resign.

The Obama campaign is a good example.

Of fairness (or a super strong candidate beating stacked odds).

So what rules did they break for Clinton?

  • Campaign finance
  • Debate questions
  • Impartiality

What advantages did she have over Sanders that she didn’t have over Obama?

I haven’t researched how unfair Obama had it so I can’t compare.

Which of those advantages weren’t just "new people to the party didn’t know tools the party made available?”

Hilarious you refer to a 76 year old career politician like Sanders as a new person.

ricecake ,

Quoting a phrase from an internal email out of context makes you seem disingenuous. The emails that were stolen show people being mean, but it also shows that they were consistently not rigging anything. Or does someone making a shitty suggestion and then a higher ranking member of the party saying “no” not fit the narrative your drawing? Or that the only time they talked about financial schemes was after the Sanders campaign alleged misconduct?

In context, Sanders told CNN that if he was elected, she would no longer be the chair person. The internal comment was “this is a silly story. Sanders isn’t going to be president” at a time where he was already loosing.

Debbie Wasserman Schultz has to resign.

She did. Eight years ago.

Tldr, party leadership preferred Clinton over Obama. Turns out that preference without misconduct doesn’t have much impact.

you refer to a 76 year old career politician like Sanders as a new person.

Oh please. It’s even in the bit that you quoted: new to the party. I act like he was new to the party because he was, and his campaign was run by people who didn’t know the party structures. When their inexperience with the party tools led to them not taking advantage of them, they cried misconduct for the other campaigns knowing about them.

Knock_Knock_Lemmy_In ,

Quoting a phrase from an internal email out of context makes you seem disingenuous.

Source. Disingenuous is trying to claim the DNC chair was not biased

The emails that were stolen show people being mean,

Showing bias in positions of responsibility is not “being mean”

but it also shows that they were consistently not rigging anything.

Debate questions in advance.

6 heads in a row.

Obtuse financing rules.

Etc.

Or that the only time they talked about financial schemes was after the Sanders campaign alleged misconduct?

Bullshit. In 2015 in exchange for raising money and investing in the DNC, Hillary would control the party’s finances, strategy, and all the money raised. Her campaign had the right of refusal of who would be the party communications director, and it would make final decisions on all the other staff.

She did. Eight years ago.

Yes. Because there was clear evidence of bias. Straight after, Debbie was rewarded with an honorary chair of the Clinton campaign’s 50-state program.

Turns out that preference without misconduct doesn’t have much impact.

How are you sure there was no misconduct?

How are you sure there was no impact?

When their inexperience with the party tools led to them not taking advantage of them, they cried misconduct for the other campaigns knowing about them.

Or, because Hillary controled the party’s finances, procedures were made deliberately obtuse to her advantage.

ricecake ,

Do you think that source contradicts what I said?

Mr. Miranda asked Ms. Wasserman Schultz whether they should call CNN to complain about a segment the network aired in which Mr. Sanders said he would oust the chairwoman if he were elected. “Do you all think it’s worth highlighting for CNN that her term ends the day after the inauguration, when a new D.N.C. Chair is elected anyway?” Mr. Miranda asked. Ms. Wasserman Schultz responded by dismissing the senator’s chances. “This is a silly story,” she wrote. “He isn’t going to be president.”

Shocking. She didn’t speak kindly of a person who publicly attacked her, and opted to leave the story alone instead of doing anything.

Same information, but cast with additional context

Most of the shocking things mentioned in the emails were only mentioned, and are then dismissed.

Your mistaking opinions and preference bias, which all people have, for unfair bias. Do you actually expect that the people who run a political party don’t have an opinion about politics?

The coin thing didn’t happen.. At best she won six out of a dozen, which is what you would expect. The reality is more complicated.

You grossly mischaracterize the agreement.
From the article:

This does not include any communications related to primary debates – which will be exclusively controlled by the DNC.

Nothing in this agreement shall be construed to violate the DNC’s obligation of impartiality and neutrality through the Nominating process. All activities performed under this agreement will be focused exclusively on preparations for the General Election and not the Democratic Primary. Further we understand you may enter into similar agreements with other candidates.

HFA will be granted complete and seamless access to all research work product and tools (not including any research or tracking the DNC may engage in relating to other Democratic candidates).

In other words, her campaign agreed to give the DNC money to prepare for the general election, and in exchange they got to look at those preparations.
This was definitely the Clinton campaign assuming she would be the candidate, but it’s not exactly a smoking gun for financial impropriety regarding the primary.

Honestly, if your campaign can’t find a lawyer or accountant who can understand campaign finance management, you probably actually shouldn’t be in charge of a country. The financial arrangements weren’t particularly obtuse or obfuscated for moving millions of dollars between multiple political entities in multiple states.

Knock_Knock_Lemmy_In ,

Actions speak louder than words. Let’s review what happened.

  • Wasserman Schultz resigned due to bias then immediately joined Clinton.

Guilty

Guilty

Guilty. Note that it’s very easy to claim others didn’t follow the rules when you are the ones writing them (possibly retroactively).

rottingleaf ,

It’s the usual catch - the leader of the losing side doesn’t get the post, but keeps power of his faction.

While if that leader is no longer a leader, their personal power would be less even if the faction wins.

Western Roman Empire had a similar story with Stilicho’s conviction and execution. The empire loses, but those who ate him get some power.

AA5B ,

Maybe you’re right but too many of us think the opposite. I would much rather a younger more progressive candidate but Joe Biden has a track record of beating Trump. Biden has done a lot of good things in his first term that I’d want to continue. Even where he hasn’t gone nearly far enough or balanced bad with good, it may be necessary to appeal to the undecideds in the middle. Biden is the only one who can overcome the Trump personality cult

If a big complaint is age, how is that a plus for Sanders? I’m sorry but he missed his chance and now is solidly in “too old for this shit” territory

Pandantic ,
@Pandantic@midwest.social avatar

https://midwest.social/pictrs/image/6f1f55a6-8528-4e47-841d-dedd69f7c41b.jpeg

KinglyWeevil ,

A track record of beating trump?

Something about the statistical validity of a sample size of one.

bobs_monkey ,

At this point, I’m convinced the Democrats are purposely throwing the election.

rsuri ,

How about we pick someone who vaguely approaches the average age of an American adult. There’s a ton - Buttigieg, AOC, I dunno even Kamala would be a million times better. Literally anybody under the age of 70. Why is that so hard to do?

justaderp ,

You keep repeating it because a false dichotomy, that you must choose between a D or R, prevents you from accepting that the lesser evil is, in fact, evil. So, you’re stuck on stupid and not asking questions. This should help:

The Democrats already, quite predictably, ignored the outcome of their primary to nominate Clinton. They’re not going to do a fucking thing that doesn’t make a corporate donor money. All of Sanders proposals took from corporations to provide for humans. He never stood a chance of being nominated as a Democrat and he damned well knew it. If we give him the benefit of the doubt then his goal was education. If not, he rallied for Democrats to avoid the rise of a Labor Party during a critical time in history.

Frokke ,

Yeah no. Your choice has global impact. Sadly enough.

Klear ,

I mean, I follow the presidental race somewhat because it has global impact, but watching the debates is not worth my time, and I’m fairly certain it’s not worth anyone’s time, especially non-americans.

kandoh ,

It’s 50% a desire to stay informed and 50% sports entertainment

Blackmist ,

Plus it’s unlikely to change anyone’s mind. At this point you’re either pro or anti Trump and you’ve had at least eight years to pick your side.

LordSinguloth ,

That whole attitude of picking sides is what got us in this mess to begin with

Soulg ,

Yeah crazy that people have to pick the fascist or not fascist side haha

LordSinguloth ,

They’re both fascists.

seejur ,

bOth ARe tHe sAMe!!!

LordSinguloth ,

They are, if you’re older than 11

coaxil ,

When’s your 11th birthday coming up?

LordSinguloth ,

10 years ago

AngryCommieKender ,

They’re both right wing, but moderate right wing bought by corporate interests isn’t the same as fascist. It’s trending towards fascism, sure, but it’s less likely to go on a killing spree.

Soulg ,

You have no idea what fascism means. Stop making yourself look dumb.

LordSinguloth ,

It’s obviously a common vernacular simplification from authoritarian with a broad definition. This is a commonplace and accepted vernacular in most modern western media based social media outlets.

Fascist can be liberal, they can also be conservative. Or communist. Or almost anything. More often fascists will lie and say they are more socialist than many of their policies would lead you to reasonably expect.

Grown ups are talking. Go play outside. You obviously need to touch grass, child.

ricecake ,

… Picking a side is literally what an election is.

AngryCommieKender ,

It’s what modern elections are, and maybe even all historical elections, though I’m not old enough to determine that. What elections should be is throwing your support behind someone that you think is going to be beneficial for everyone. I know that is idealistic, and unfortunately the current system makes that basically impossible, but Washington said that partisan politics would be the downfall of this country, and his words are playing out in front of us. I really wish we would throw the parties, and lobbyists, out and force candidates to run on policy and merit.

ricecake ,

See, you’re talking partisan politics, I’m talking “you literally have to pick someone”. We’ve had these candidates before. You already know which one you’re going to vote for. You picked your side four years ago when you were asked the same question.

Beyond that though, there’s “parties” and then theirs “sides”. One side is xenophobic, homophobic and actively wishes harm on a lot of people. The other side doesn’t, for all their flaws.
There are more parties than there are sides in the past few elections.

By saying you think you should vote for someone who will be good for everyone, you’ve picked a side. The side that doesn’t want to do good for only the “right” people, or make sure only the “right” people get hurt.
The only question is if you’ll vote for that side to win, or if you’ll let idealism or anger drive you to vote otherwise.

AngryCommieKender ,

I shall, once again, for the 6th time in my life, hold my nose and vote for the milquetoast candidate the DNC has foisted on us. I wish we had RCV so I could vote for someone good, like Bernie, or heck I’d almost take Vermin Supreme at this point.

ricecake ,

Dude, have you actually read vermin Supremes platform, or rather his actual political philosophy and beliefs?

I read through some of them once, and had the horrifying realization that the contemporary political figure that I think I agree with most closely is:

  • unelectable
  • best known for wearing a boot on his head

I couldn’t find where a lot of his actual opinions got discussed a bit more formally, but this random video snippet from 2008 does a decent job capturing it.

If I had (got? Got. I’d love to need to make the choice) to pick between a democratic socialist or a social anarchist, I think I’d honestly lean towards the social anarchist, all things being equal.

AngryCommieKender ,

I just know he wants free ponies for all. Never considered him a serious candidate.

ricecake ,

Oh yeah, he’s totally not a viable candidate, but he does have an actual political philosophy and opinions that are surprisingly agreeable. He just lacks the actual political fortitude or will to get elected.

PopShark ,

A side as opposed to either side is how it should be. But don’t take my word for it, George Washington allegedly warned us of the potential perils of a two-party system on his deathbed but I’m unsure if that is common myth or actually true

ricecake ,

George Washington eschewed political parties because he didn’t want to establish a precedent where his choice as first president set the standard everyone else had to conform to, and there’s a little irony in people holding him up as an example in that light more than 200 years later.

He, and the other founders largely, disliked political parties in their entirety, not just having some specific number of them.
They also built the system that enshrined the two party dichotomy as the only option, actively sought to ensure that the “right” people could override the will of the people if needed, and founded the parties they had previously argued against.
They are far from infallible bastions of correctness in this matter.

trolololol ,

I came here to skip the debate and catch up with the jokes. But seems like the joke is the debate itself

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