¯_(ツ)_/¯ I sort of look at them as amusement. It’s not like what they want will happen In our lifetimes (or ever probably). I don’t necessarily get why everyone hates them, just try looking at them as funny content lol
I genuinely don’t understand why the admins are dragging ass and not just defederating from them already. They provide nothing of value, just spam and harassment.
Welp, tried to delete my account and fuck off from this place due to that knowledge, but apparently account deletion doesnt work. so I’m just fuckin off.
They are the best example what happens when people are locked in their echo chamber. They are radicalizing themselves to the point of absurdity. The statements they make are so illogical its hard to even have a discussion about it, because they literally deny truisms.
Because it worked on them. At some point someone was a smug, obnoxious cunt to them online and they were like “Wow, thanks, I guess I’m a communist now!”
My guess is numbers. “Only” 28k palestinians vs. over 6 million jews. Also that they’re not being killed en masse after capture (although it really feels like Netanyahu would love to do that)
That sort of comment is to be expected on Lemmy. A lot of very ignorant people here. Obviously the Holocaust wasn’t as well taught in Australia as it was in the Netherlands.
Keep them in shackles in very small cells with nothing, not even mattresses or food that is more than bread. This is subhuman treatment. A lot of prisons in other countries which is equally fucked up but that is not relevant for this conversation
I mean, I think people go to the Nazi well a little too frequently. It’s almost like, “you’re on my side, or you’re a Nazi.”
Now, this has made it very confusing in recent years when we had real-ass nazis trying to claim power. But pointing that out became muddied when held up to the years and years of “Nazi” labels being thrown around.
However, it’s not completely out of line to be making genocide claims. Because…I mean…what’s happening in Gaza is pretty standard genocidal behavior. But with the nazis being the standard bearer of what people see as genocide, people usually only express it as “this is the holocaust.”
And if you think it’s okay to do this to prisoners—I mean, you’re belittling abuse by making some flippant remark about keeping six people tied on their hands and knees in a four foot room while keeping them malnourished—then you’re only missing one aspect of why people are calling what’s happening a genocide. The other aspect of that is all of the rhetoric coming from Israel that shows the sort of “sub-human” othering of the Palestinian people along with the seemingly complete annihilation of this culture and people.
The “no mattresses” thing isn’t happening in a vacuum. It’s happening within the context of prisoner abuse. Which is happening within the context of and overwhelming force keeping a specific group penned into a smaller and smaller area, while they seemingly indiscriminately bomb a cultural group nearly out of existence, while there is system-wide othering of this group of people, and they’re spoken of as if they’re sub-human. And treated that way.
Imagine yourself in the place of one of these men. How would you feel? Would that be acceptable to you? Would that be acceptable to your parents? Would it be acceptable to your spouse to not know where you are being held or why? Would it be acceptable for you as a lawyer to get no legal representation because a colonizer decided you are going to be tortured and humiliated for being X ethnicity?
No-one is debating that the IDF are way over the line, but the comment made was comparing a picture of a masked dude saying the prisoners should be made to sleep without a mattress to the industrialised murder of an entire ethnic group over the majority of a continent with the sole purpose of eradicating them.
Yellow cheese and bread would be fine with me if I was in prison as an enemy combatant and suspected terrorist.
Such detention is usually indefinite, or at least usually lasts until whatever conflict ends, and POWs usually do not have a right to counsel.
Stress positions are torture and that’s not a subject I know much about from an international law standpoint. If it’s not illegal it should be.
But here you are once again without enough information to form a strong opinion, getting emotional, and reacting as if you have a real good idea of what’s happening in this video, which you do not. Are they stress positions that the inmates are forced to maintain for hours at a time, or were they told to get on the ground with their heads down and legs crossed so the cell could be opened safely for whoever that is touring the facility?
The video and audio are cut up and spliced. You have no idea what the speaker is talking about when he says “this is how it should be after October 7.” Does he mean they should be in prison? Does he mean they should not be moving or talking? Does he mean they should be eating only white bread and yellow cheese? Does he mean they should be in stress positions being tortured? Who knows? Not me, not you. And this is how we got here: people reacting to the worst half of a story and automatically assuming the worst possible explanation. That’s just not how I operate; I can see that I do not have enough information to have a strong opinion about this video or photos, so I don’t have one.
Jesus. Even the US gives “enemy combatants” MREs. They are done and out of the fight. There’s no reason to mistreat them at that point. It’s just cruelty for the sake of it and no it’s not legal.
I had to guard detainees before they were taken to the rear, and after searching them they keep their clothes and get an MRE and a bottle of water. You just sit there in silence then. Nothing else is required. The fact that they’re in an armed camp handcuffed and hooded is enough to keep them quiescent. And once they’re in a prison there’s certainly no reason to treat them worse than we did in the field.
If you’ve got them to spare, sure. I suppose you are right. Bread and cheese alone is no way to feed someone and has plenty of negative health consequence. I still don’t know enough about what the photo shows. How long does this diet persist for, is this a factor of intentional choice or is what they have extra in a warzone!
And to your second point, how about if the muckity mucks come for a tour and inspection, which is what this video seems to me to show, or if this is the intake holding or transport procedure?
If Israel doesn’t have food to spare then there are far larger problems not being discussed. Also, if this is what their leadership expects then that’s a big problem.
Good points. I hope if the leadership was touring around and saw this position that it was indeed only for very temporary purposes, such as a bang-up or transport.
this is the daily reality of Palestinians in prison… you are just too in love with Israel to admit they do evil and for the life of me I wish I knew why… why are Palestinians not worth a nickle in your eyes?
Children as small as 12 are in Israeli prisons for no crimes and with no legal representation. I thought that should horrify you as a lawyer. I really thought you would care about that 🙂 but I have lost all faith in you considering me or people who look like me to be human beings.
You’re again allowing your emotional thinking to make wild leaps in logic.
Wild leaps of logic? That Israel is committing genocide and torturing Palestinians in a prison iin their apartheid ethnostate?
I often wonder how you take yourself seriously. These are examples of torture and humiliation performed by the IDF, the dossier is bigger than you can imagine, but you will conveniently wave that “act propensity evidence” card or that other “but these are just reports” card so you can protect yourself from the emotional impact of admitting that a genocide is underway.
If you can’t even see what leap of logic you are making with blatant act propensity evidence, it’s because you are not good at evaluating information, and I think it’s because you have no ability to think rationally when you’re uncomfortable with the subject matter. Why not leave yet thinking to people who know how to do it?
I think this is where you and I part ways. Your rambling about Israel and America not being democracies is a bridge too far for me. It’s like you’re a flat earther.
Why not leave yet thinking to people who know how to do it?
🤣
Your rambling about Israel and America not being democracies is a bridge too far for me.
Bud, are you fucking kidding me? How irrational is it to erect your own bias wall? “Democracy” is not above criticism, and “Democracy” without Palestinians is a racist farce. I never said current America is not a democracy, since everyone CAN vote. I said America when African Americans and women couldn’t vote was not a democracy… And I’m saying that Israel, a racist apartheid state that jails and kills and tortures Palestinians because of their ethnicity and doesn’t allow them to vote is not a fucking democracy. You can’t do apartheid and democracy at the same time. That’s fucking insane!
@JustZ Oops should I just assume you were overwhelmed by the fact that political scientists, diplomats, and human rights organizations CALL THIS AN APARTHEID STATE?
Do you even know for sure these men are Hamss? Or do you just believe any “report”?
Asking since you seem to think criminals deserve no human rights. As a lawyer I’m sure this isn’t your professional opinion but somehow it’s good enough for Palestinians 🙂
And btw was America a democracy when women and black people couldn’t vote? This was a question on another thread about a similar topic
No I have no idea if they are Hamas. I hope they aren’t doing this to people who just want to live their lives and I don’t think they are.
As to your other question if you’re going to make me respond I think it’s a revealing question for you to ask. It obviously was then and still is, without serious debate by political scientists of that day and this day. You sound as if you’re asking me if the world was flat some arbitrary amount of time ago, it wasn’t then and it still isn’t. And don’t get emotional with me, I didn’t make up all of political science.
Wherever people are practicing democracy, no matter how dim the flame may look to you, it is much brighter than the total darkness of mysticism and fear that governed all societies for most of world history.
As I’ve said I appreciate you and your entire perspective on this and mine is obviously different. I’m about people, and if you must know I represent people exclusively and for me, lasting civil rights, enshrined in primary law and custom, with the consent of the people and checks and balances. It’s incompatible with religious extremists out there chanting death to American and death to Israel. And that’s fine until they start crossing borders to kill civilians and talking about having their own country.
No I have no idea if they are Hamas. I hope they aren’t doing this to people who just want to live their lives and I don’t think they are.
Why don’t you think they are? What makes you dismiss everything a Palestinian doctor or ambulance staff would say as “mere reports”, but when it’s the IDF or Israel you say shit like “and I don’t think they are.”
Why? What’s the difference? What makes you think they aren’t doing this, when everything else in the news we have been seeing points to the opposite: that torture in Israeli prisons is alive and well and some have even been killed in custody.
It obviously was then and still is, without serious debate by political scientists of that day and this day.
So just to get this right:
YOU BELIEVE THAT AMERICA WAS A DEMOCRACY EVEN WHEN WOMEN WERE SEEN AS SUBHUMAN AND NOT ALLOWED TO VOTE AND WHEN BLACK PEOPLE WERE SEEN AS SLAVES AND COULDN’T VOTE?
Well, buddy, then I understand you fully. You’re actually just someone totally okay with fascism as long as its dressed in sheep’s clothing pretending to be a democracy. Regardless or your treatment of women and black people in daily life, what you said is quite racist and sexist given the context. I guess after this I don’t really see why I should keep barking up your tree to see if you consider Palestinians like me to be human beings… you clearly say you will but you never walk the walk just like with women and black people. 🙂
EDIT: even the women sufrage movement agrees with me, and without this argument wonen would not vote today in America:
Wilson ignored the protests for six months, but on June 20, 1917, as a Russian delegation drove up to the White House, suffragists unfurled a banner which stated: “We women of America tell you that America is not a democracy. Twenty million women are denied the right to vote. President Wilson is the chief opponent of their national enfranchisement”. [295] Another banner on August 14, 1917, referred to “Kaiser Wilson” and compared the plight of the German people with that of American women. With this manner of protest, the women were subject to arrests and many were jailed. Another ongoing tactic of the National Woman’s Party was watchfires, which involved burning copies of President Wilson’s speeches, often outside the White House or in the nearby Lafayette Park. The Party continued to hold watchfires even as the war began, drawing criticism from the public and even other suffrage groups for being unpatriotic.[296] On October 17, Alice Paul was sentenced to seven months and on October 30 began a hunger strike, but after a few days prison authorities began to force feed her.[295] After years of opposition, Wilson changed his position in 1918 to advocate women’s suffrage as a war measure.[297] (en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Women's_suffrage)
And don’t get emotional with me, I didn’t make up all of political science.
And you dare gaslight me! Wow!
Democracy is when PEOPLE have the POWER via voting… not *WHITE PEOPLE AND MEN.
Wherever people are practicing democracy, no matter how dim the flame may look to you, it is much brighter than the total darkness of mysticism and fear that governed all societies for most of world history.
What the fuck would that mean to me as a women if I wasn’t allowed to vote in this system!??!?!?
As I’ve said I appreciate you and your entire perspective on this and mine is obviously different.
I don’t appreciate you anymore after this…
And that’s fine until they start crossing borders to kill civilians and talking about having their own country.
YOU MEAN LIKE ISRAEL IS DOING NOW TO GAZA? LOL*
Wherever people are practicing democracy, no matter how dim the flame may look to you, it is much brighter than the total darkness of mysticism and fear that governed all societies for most of world history.
Wherever people are practicing democracy, no matter how dim the flame may look to you, it is much brighter than the total darkness of mysticism and fear that governed all societies for most of world history.
It’s people like you who guard the faulty system as it is with this bullshit, @JustZ. Oh it’s much brigther than the darkness, you see!! that’s why it was still a democracy even if half the population was not considered WORTHY enough to vote, and a large chunk were just slaves okay? But the flame don’t die, okay??.
Right, you can say whatever you want, we will let the readers judge whether this is emotional nonsense or weather you are just biased and don’t realize how much you dehumanize Palestinians.
So… you are skeptical and critical of how much the Israeli genocide of Palestine resembles the Holocaust? The issue is not that. The issue is that Israel of all countries is doing this even in a smaller and “milder” form.
Yeah, I can’t believe anyone would be ignorant enough to compare Israel’s actions to the Holocaust. The Palestinian genocide clearly has more in common with the Armenian genocide than the Jewish genocide. I mean, forcing the Palestinians into southern Gaza while killing them indiscriminately and starving them to death is just begging for a comparison to the 1915 death marches. C’mon people, more countries than just Germany and Israel have committed genocide, think for a minute about your historical parallels!
No Reddit is just as bad. This is a problem with people substituting ideology for intelligence. People will believe anything if they like the people telling them to. The truth of the matter is that no-one who is not involved in the conflict actually knows about what’s actually going on there. The IDF obviously have an incentive to cover up war crimes, but at the same time Hamas (a group internationally recognized as a terorist organization) is the government in the Gaza Strip and all the statistics about civilian casualties are cited as coming from "the government of Palestine.
So again talking about the nazi Party and Israel in the same breath on the basis of a single translated image is fucking stupid.
Ok, I mean you’re entitled to your opinion. I’m just saying that what happens during a war is only clear after it’s ended. And certainly isn’t clear to keyboard warriors sitting on their couch in the states or Europe. There’s a very famous photo of German POWs being shown footage of a death camp prior to their release. The expressions on their faces show very clearly that they had no idea what was happening.
Similarly after this conflict is over, it is very possible that some extremely damming evidence will come to light. But until the war is over, you have to assume that most of what you see on both sides will be propaganda or taken out of context to promote a political ideology. And it’s a foolish comparison to make without more evidence than an out of context picture of an asshole prison guard.
Everyone else seems to see enough clearly damning evidence. But no problem, we can wait until the genocide is over and all Gazans are dead. 👍 That way you don’t have to believe us “keyboard warriors” sharing journalistic investigations and video footage of the mayhem.
Believe me I think Israel should pull out of Gaza and the settlers should leave the west bank. And I also believe that Palestine should be granted full independence according to 1967 borders. And I genuinely think that that would go a long way to establishing a climate of mutual hostility instead of straight up violence (I’m not naive enough to think that Israelis and Palestinians will ever be friends). Of course I shouldn’t be consulted, because I don’t live there and consulting Europeans about national borders in the middle east doesn’t seem to work. But I’m still not going to judge either side as being as bad as the Nazis, because I don’t have enough information to make that call.
I am 100% against the IDF entering Gaza and executing civilians or Israelis settling in the west bank. I am also 100% against kidnapping civilians and digging up water pipes to make unguided rockets to be fired indiscriminately into residential areas.
I’m Palestinian Jordanian. My father is from Yaffa (Tel Aviv) and my mother is from a town nearby that was destroyed and turned into a settlement after the entire population was driven out after trying to defend themselves in 1947-48. My grandparents were in the Nakba as children and fled to Jordan, eventually receiving citizenship. My father grew up in a refugee camp in Jordan and my mother grew up in poverty as a result of the Nakba.
Usually when people ask I just say I’m Jordanian to avoid the clutter of explaining all of this but I thought you might like a full answer.
Ok so you’re way closer to the conflict than you let on. Do you currently live in the region? I’m sure you have family there if not, but it would be to speak with someone who has more real world insight than I do. As I’ve said in previous comments, I’m extremely skeptical of anything that comes from the internet. YouTubers tend to have extreme views and papers only care about the click counter. Needless to say there aren’t many Palestinians or Israelis in Arctic Scandinavia.
Ok so you’re way closer to the conflict than you let on
Not really going to wear a badge that says “GRANDCHILD OF THE NAKBA” or something. And I’m not “letting on” anything. Makes it sound like I’m trying to “deceive” people which is very weird. Maybe it’s just the way you phrase things?
Needless to say there aren’t many Palestinians or Israelis in Arctic Scandinavia.
Arctic Scandinavia? You mean like, Kiruna or way up north or something? I live in Sweden btw, yeah not many Palestinians here, I agree.
I’m sure you have family there if not, but it would be to speak with someone who has more real world insight than I do.
We have some family in the West Bank that my family had not been able to visit for years because of the humiliation at the checkpoints. My mom especially hated being stripped naked and searched every visit. I don’t know much about them, it’s more of my mom’s department to keep track of distant relatives. A friend of mine is currently also stuck in Gaza, a Swedish citizen whom Sweden ignored and is not helping out… Last known location is Al Nasser Hospital with shrapnel in his legs so you can imagine the horrors his wife and daughters are going through.
As I’ve said in previous comments, I’m extremely skeptical of anything that comes from the internet.
I’m sure you have family there if not, but it would be to speak with someone who has more real world insight than I do.
I understand and respect that… but much of this evidence is coming from journalists who are reporting similar (if not the same) recurring stories. Worse of all, a lot of this evidence is posted by the IDF themselves or by Israeli channels due to their disturbing internal culture.
I can only offer insight into life as a Palestinian refugee and have never been able to visit my home towns in Palestine and would never be allowed to enter (because my last name is Palestinian, because I donate to the BDS, and because I’m extremely vocal about Israeli pinkwashing). However, if you want some insights from ex IDF soldiers themselves, I would recommend watching some videos from the Breaking The Silence foundation (www.breakingthesilence.org.il). An Israeli foundation documenting the horrors young people end up doing when they join the IDF.
This was a valuable resource for me because just like you, I’m very wary of what is posted on the internet and try to always find more evidence to support it.
Nei kompis. Litt lengre nordover. Jeg skal se på linken om en liten stund og skrive en respons i ettermiddagen. (Er på jobb nå). Hva synes du om Sverige? Jeg har hørt at det er meget vanskelig for utlendinger å bli ordentlig integrert i samfunnet pga rasisme og sånn. Samboeren min er fra usa og ble nektet en brosjyre distribusjon job i Stockholm pga hun var ikke svensk. Og hun er det som kalles for “den rigtige type utlending”
Sverige älskar jag faktiskt. Har altid velat att bo på nån plats där manniskör bryr sig inte så mycket om religion. Med jobbet var det annorlunda för mig… i början hade jag nästan inga erfarenheter på svenska bolag och fick bara ett studentjobb och en praktik på ett startup… MEN efter mitt först “seriöst” jobb blev det lättre – jag även hade det motsatta problemet ibland för att det finns många företag som vill ha “diversity” i kontoret och det kan ibland mena att man fick anställning pga att dem vill visa sig så här och har färgade kvinnor eller araber eller afrikaner på kontoret för att ta bra fotos som visar hur “diverse” deras arbetsplats är, osv.
Jag upplever inte så mycket racism var jag bor och jobbar (men jag jobbar inom tech), på mest var det bara några få incidenter med privat personer men flera med myndigheter som försäkringskassan och migrationsverket… det beror ofta på vem man får som handläggare. Men jag har många vänner som är från Kina eller är män från Mellanöstern som har det jättesvårt pga en dålig miljö som vill inte ge dem chansar och vill inte lita på dem. Men iaf tycker jag att svenskarna är mer öppna och mer spannande än stereotypen. Mina vänner hjälpte mig mycket med att integrera och jag är tacksam för dem.
SFI var inte så bra som hag trodde det skulle bli för att lära mig svenska, jag klarade sista nivån men kunde inte prata rigtigt svenska med andra, och var tvungen att ha privat lektioner istället, då blev det bättre och jag känner mig mer bekväm och hoppas att bli en svensk medbogare i 2 års tid.
Va dåligt är det, vad hade hänt med din vän :( det låter fel! kankse som nånting hon kan klaga till myndigheterna om?
It was difficult whenever I crossed paths with racist Jordanians. Most Jordanians I’ve met were perfectly fine people, but most of those who were racist towards me were Jordanian. One problem that drives the division is demographic in nature: many Palestinians settled in Amman, the capital, and many Jordanians owned land far from the capital and lived in rural areas, hence had worse services and the government cared less about them, coupled with bad corruption within governmental circles in cities other than the capital. This always drives a disdain for the “immigrant” population, which meant Palestinians up until the Iraq war and then the war in Syria. Most problems would be related to employment, Jordanians (and often Palestinians) being hired out of favoritism and nepotism has caused pain to many people, but has also allowed some people to navigate a grossly unfair and uncaring system.
I remember at my elementary/middle school, we were not allowed to wear the Palestinian Kuffiyeh (my grandfather always told me to never wear it… only he wore one as an older man but knew that it comes with getting shit from some random people on the street so he never wanted his granddaughters to experience that). There’s also another issue that has plagued my aunt and her husband: she’s married to a Palestinian from Gaza, and could never get citizenship, so her children had a more difficult life in terms of getting education and opportunities.
Among my generation (born in the 90’s), there’s certainly less racism, and there are many Jordanians who call Palestinians their brothers and care about the Palestinian cause. But I still grew up hearing slurs like “baljikeyye / Belgian” to refer to Palestinian refugees who had tents made in Belgium. Often when I get stopped by police and my Jordanian bff is with us in the car, things go fine. Otherwise, I’m usually fucked unless the police officer is a decent person. Things move easier if you’re Jordanian with a Jordanian name, and some Jordanians/Palestinians don’t like to marry someone not from their own country/identity but that stuff has started to fade with the internet and rise in civil rights and freedoms.
I guess my experience is mixed, but I feel that’s normal when you look at a nuanced and highly porous society like that in Jordan.
Dude. We have actual evidence, not circumstantial, not biased witnesses; of Israel inducing a famine, shooting unarmed civilians trying to cross their lines, killing reporters, and using doctors as human shields. (Who they then killed anyway).
This isn’t a wait until it’s over thing. This is an act now thing. For reference these guys already have more credible war crime allegations in 4 months than the US had in 20 years over a much larger area. It’s not rocket science.
This is where you bring out Gabor Maté, who was born a year before the Holocaust ended, doesn’t live in Israel/Palestine, and yet is taken very seriously by the media. One could equally bring out Mosab Hassan Yousef on the other side, who is to my mind actually more compelling, as he has actually worked for both sides.
I guess you don’t equate it because the prisoners aren’t starved and abused enough? How much worse do you want it to get before you denounce it? It’s at least as bad as what the Americans were doing in the Abu Ghraib prison.
Multiple Children in Gaza have already been killed with starvation by israel. Palestinians locked in a concentration camp.
WHO can’t even bring food to the north which is supposedly “fully controlled by israel” which tells you enough about intentional starvation and genocide.
If you wanna do Genocide denial consider Reddit. We have indeed lost that “nuance” which you still posses.
OP presents a great example of intelligence vs wisdom. Intelligence is knowing the Holocaust was technically worse. Wisdom is knowing that really doesn’t matter here. The nuance they’re talking about is pointless, especially when you consider that we didn’t know about the forced labor, heinous science experiments, and systematic killing until later on.
The earlier stages of the Holocaust were very similar to what Israel is doing now. And what’s scary is that they’re accelerating too.
1943 is not that long ago, television existed, especially in Germany.> Television in Germany began in Berlin on 22 March 1935, broadcasting for 90 minutes three times a week. It was home to the first public television station in the world, named Fernsehsender Paul Nipkow.>
Sadly, it seems both sides of any discussion have now mastered hyperbole, manipulating statistics, leaving out facts and stretching the truth to make their argument. You basically can’t believe anything you read any longer.
I’m in the space industry and I can tell you that anyone pretending to be an authority on orbital mechanics on the internet is full of shit. I’ve taken entire classes called “advanced orbital mechanics.” That shit is wildly hard, vaguely inaccurate, and so slow that you can only do it effectively on a computer. Even then you have to decide which variables to throw out because you if you use them all you won’t be able to calculate predictions on every satellite in time for them to be useful. Then you have to take the predictions, predict how wrong they are, and predict again based on those predictions if two satellites will run into each other.
The truth is that nobody knows if Kessler Syndrome is even real. I personally fall on the side of thinking it’s nonsense, there are too many variables that would have to go wrong all at once. It’s like being worried about winning the lottery. There have been multiple catastrophic on orbit conjunctions that have created thousands of pieces of debris. Still no Kessler Syndrome. Even in a nightmare scenario I can only see it affecting one orbital regime. The odds of Starlink effecting the orbit that GPS is in is effectively not possible. But this is not a solved field and I am not remotely an expert, I’m just tired of people who don’t know a thing about the field thinking they’re experts because they have a JWST desktop wallpaper and have 300 hours in KSP. The real experts are ancient old men and women who have been doing orbital predictions for 40 years and I’ve seen them get into yelling matches about this sort of thing.
This post got away from me but the point is this shit is so involved it effectively can’t be fact checked because you could come to whatever conclusion you want.
If there’s anything I’ve noticed using Lemmy for news (before that I didn’t really have a general news source) it’s that the headline is always wrong, and the article almost always corrects it—but all of the comments are about always just people who read the headline and act as if it’s gospel with even reading the article.
If the sites didn’t put it all beyond pay walls it might remedy that problem a little bit. Force people to jump through hoops just to read shit journalism and they will do the easier thing: debate headlines.
Make it infinitely more obnoxious, 90’s era blinky text, gifs, auto play music… “You wouldn’t be seeing or hearing any of this bullshit if you ran an ad blocker”
It’s part of Israel’s propaganda to make this about religion to invoke irrational “War on Terror” sentiments in people who haven’t looked into it that deeply.
In reality, they’re dehumanizing and targeting all Palestinian Arabs, including Christians. Hence the shooting up and bombing of churches along with everything else.
Some of them are Kahanists but I don’t think religion figures into their motives as a wider group except for scapegoating purposes.
I think they may be viewing it as more of an act of defiance and retribution for the rave hamas murdered all those innocent people at. If you view it as an isolated thing happening during a “war” then it really makes no sense.
These protests were started by families of hostages who are still in Gaza. They don't want any supplies into Gaza until all hostages are released, because they fear that most of the aid will be stolen by Hamas anyway and used to prolong the war.
Before you scoff at the source, there's video evidence included in the article that is impossible to deny.
It should be pretty obvious that food, medical supplies and fuel are needed by fighters as well and in much larger quantities per person.
This is a difficult problem to solve. Personally, I would still send supplies though, hoping that at least some of them reach civilians who need them, but I can understand the frustration of people who are personally affected by this war. This aid unfortunately does have a not just theoretical chance of prolonging the conflict, enabling the besieged terrorist organization to hold out for longer, which in turn means more suffering not just for hostages and Israelis who only just recently have seen a reduction in rocket attacks, but also for Palestinian civilians, who are caught between a rock (IDF) and a hard place (Hamas) for as long as the fighting continues.
Here's the moral conundrum: Let's say we could determine with near certainty that halting aid would shorten the war, even if it resulted in a temporary increase in human suffering due to increased shortages. If the total amount of human suffering would be lower as a result, due to the war being over sooner, would it be the right moral choice, even if people end up suffering more for a brief amount of time? Think of it as a variation of the trolley problem.
Based on what surviving hostages have reported and going by the fact that medication meant for them never reached them, not much.
For as much of a bastard as Netanyahu is, you can't fight a modern war effectively without bombs (or else you get stagnation like in Ukraine, where air defenses on both sides make use of bombers difficult to impossible) and the hostages wouldn't be in danger of getting bombed in the first place if Hamas hadn't abducted them from their homes and started this war.
Intent matters. The actual death toll (which we don't actually have for Gaza - we only have Hamas reporting figures, which includes obvious lies like that hospital parking lot incident that I'm sure you remember) is actually irrelevant in assessing whether or not something is a genocide. Think about this for a second: Would an army hell-bent on committing genocide roof-knock, drop leaflets, send warnings by telephone, messenger, social media and hacked TV stations? Why bother, why give warning to an enemy (any time you warn civilians, Hamas fighters will also be able to flee or hide) if the actual goal, like you are claiming, is eradication?
Before you're saying that this is just a smoke screen: The Israeli government clearly doesn't care about outside appearances, as they have stated multiple times, and would bring this war to its conclusion no matter what the world is saying, as they have also stated multiple times.
Also, stagnation doesn't mean everything stops, it means the fighting continues, it means extremely limited access for aid workers, it means chaos, it means people fleeing, it means supplies getting stolen by Hamas.
@DdCno1 just to be clear, the reason I am calling this a genocide is because it closely matches Raphael Lemkin's definition of a genocide.
I agree with you, intent matters.
A note on the death toll though, historically Hamas health authority figures have been fairly accurate to final independently assessed death tolls. This is according to all the biggest NGOs and news agencies I trust such as MSF and BBC. Obviously there are logistical challenges and they are likely undercounting those killed in rubble.
International humanitarian NGOs are now sounding the warning about looming deaths due to secondary causes malnutrition and disease which in a deliberate man-made famine situation still count.
Would an army hell-bent on committing genocide roof-knock, drop leaflets, send warnings by telephone, messenger, social media and hacked TV stations?
This is all IDF propaganda. Even if they are doing all of these things consistently and precisely, what evidence is there that these efforts have any effect I’m reducing civilian casualties?
We’d need an honest and open accounting of casualties to check that. And the IDF will not do that.
This does not read like propaganda to me and paints a balanced picture. It shows that there is both an enormous effort to save civilians, but that from the perspective of those civilians, the process is still confusing and traumatizing. There are unfortunately no perfect solutions. At the very least, homes can be rebuilt, people cannot.
It makes perfect sense. It’s not constructive, effective or helping to move towards any kind of resolution of this conflict, but on a personal level, it does make sense.
I think, as far as regular people go, at this stage both sides in the conflict are primarily motivated by revenge. We can dress it all up with fancy words of occupation, injustice, national self defense or whatever your chosen flavor of ideology is in this conflict. But for regular everyday people in the region the primary reason why they want to see the other regular people die is revenge.
@chillhelm I guess. There are probably plenty of ordinary humans who empathise with other civilians there too, it's just we don't hear so much about those.
I knew a woman whose husband was held prisoner by the Axis during WWII Her response was to go every weekend to a POW camp of "enemy" soldiers and bring them food, chocolate etc, since they were in the same situation as her husband. That, is also part of human nature, just not the side the war monger$ like to encourage.
That is really the tragedy about the whole thing. A small warmongering minority on both sides pulls in people who really just want to live in peace and safety and have enough to eat, a roof over their head,… who are likely the vast majority on both sides.
Yeah I think so. We get told it's about "religion" but it's really about geopolitical interests and a transnational military industrial complex that constantly stir this stuff up and exploit religious tensions.
It is about religion in the sense that religion makes it much easier for a small number of malicious people to control a large number of people and make them do things against their own interest.
Israeli citizens are subjected to daily propaganda (e.g. “there are no civilians in Gaza”, “Hamas is ISIS”, “Hamas wants to murder all jews”, etc.) to legitimize their fascistic policies.
There are a lot of parallels to the US short/y after 9/11.
75 years of being attacked leads to some fucked up thinking. Most Israelis, like most Palestinians know people who have been victims of violence repeatedly. Their mindsets aren’t the same as those in the West with the safety and security provided by border stability. Which is why it’s so interesting seeing the Western ideals being pushed on this conflict. Those ravers should be jailed though, they’re contradicting the ICJ order. Whether it’s the Israeli government or not, the order was to enable the provision of aid and that means clearing obstacles.
There’s no brainwashing needed to be able to read a history book at every turn. It’s been the Arabs who have attacked and the Israelis who have defended.
And just like we saw in October Palestinians struck out and now they’re crying because they’re losing yet another war they start. It’s an age-old tactic for Arabs to use human suffering in order to garner sympathy from the West, and it works for good reason. Nothing has changed since it was pointed out that peace will not come until Arabs love their children as much as they hate Jews and nothing will change until they stop raising martyrs and start deradicalizing their people. Defunding UNRWA is a good first step.
The gish gallop doesn’t change the fact that the Arab Nations instigated and started every war since the inception of Israel. Half of those posts affirm Arab aggression as well.
Also notably missing from the list is the near million Jews ethnically cleansed from the Arab countries surrounding Israel in the 40s. For all the talk of the Nakba, there were more Jews displaced than Arabs. Yet one group accepted reality and built a nation. The other is still fighting a war they lost 3 generations ago.
I’ve read most of what you’ve posted here in my university education. More than half of that is irrelevant. Of course non israelis don’t have rights in Israel. Israeli Arabs do though. Half of your posts affirm Arab aggression too.
Plenty of back and forth, are you denying the fact that the Arab Nations instigated and were the aggressors in each of the wars started since the inception of Israel?
Somehow, I’m not convinced you read any of the links. Did you know over 250 thousand Palestinians were forcibly displaced before Israel declared independence?
There are more than 50 laws that discriminate against Palestinian citizens of Israel. directly or indirectly, based solely on their ethnicity, rendering them second or third class citizens in their own homeland.
By August 1937, “transfer” was a major subject of discussion at the Twentieth Zionist Congress in Zurich, Switzerland. Alluding to the systematic dispossession of Palestinian peasants (fellahin) that Zionist organizations had been engaged in for years, David Ben-Gurion, who would become Israel’s first prime minister in 1948, stated: “You are no doubt aware of the [Jewish National Fund’s] activity in this respect. Now a transfer of a completely different scope will have to be carried out. In many parts of the country new settlement will not be possible without transferring the Arab fellahin.” He concluded: “Jewish power [in Palestine], which grows steadily, will also increase our possibilities to carry out this transfer on a large scale.”
By the time the state of Israel was declared on May 14, 1948, more than 200 Palestinian villages had already been emptied as people fled in fear or were forcibly expelled by Zionist forces, and approximately 175,000 Palestinians had been made refugees. By 1949, at least 750,000 Palestinians had been made refugees, losing their land, homes and other belongings in what became known as the “Nakba” (“catastrophe”).
Between 1948 (when Israel declared independence) and 1966, Palestinian citizens of Israel were subject to military rule. After 1966, martial law was lifted but to this day they continue to suffer from widespread, systematic and institutionalized discrimination affecting everything from land ownership and employment opportunities to family reunification rights. Today, there are approximately 1.9 million (Updated December 2019) Palestinian citizens of Israel, comprising about 21% of Israel’s population.
The documents describe detailed preparations that were made in the military in the years before 1967, with the intention of organizing in advance the control of territories that the defense establishment assessed – with high certainty – would be conquered in the next war. A perusal of the information indicates that the takeover and retention of these areas – the West Bank from Jordan, the Sinai Peninsula and Gaza Strip from Egypt, and the Golan Heights from Syria – were not a by-product of the fighting, but the manifestation of a strategic approach and prior preparations.
Following the 1967 war, martial law over the Palestinian population as well as the Jordanian, Syrian, and Egyptian populations in these areas was put in place. In 1993, the Oslo I agreements facilitated limited self-rule for Palestinians under the Palestinian National Authority. Officially, only parts of Area C in the West Bank are under martial law.
The first intifada erupted 25 years ago. What started as local demonstrations snowballed into a sweeping popular uprising that did not die down until the convening of the Madrid peace conference at the end of 1991. The intifada reinvigorated the Palestine Liberation Organization, which was at a low ebb in its history after its forced evacuation from Lebanon and the concomitant loss of the military and political option. More important, the intifada shifted the focal point of the Palestinian national struggle from the “outside” to the “inside.”
The Second Intifada, was a major uprising by Palestinians against the Israeli occupation, characterized by a period of heightened violence in the Palestinian territories and Israel between 2000 and 2005. The general triggers for the unrest are speculated to have been centered on the failure of the 2000 Camp David Summit, which was expected to reach a final agreement in July 2000. An uptick in violent incidents started in September 2000, after Israeli politician Ariel Sharon made a provocative visit to the Al-Aqsa compound, which is situated atop the Temple Mount in East Jerusalem; the visit itself was peaceful, but, as anticipated, sparked protests and riots that Israeli police put down with rubber bullets, live ammunition, and tear gas. Within the first few days of the uprising, the IDF had fired one million rounds of ammunition.
The “great march” entailed weekly demonstrations by Palestinians near the fence that since 1996 has separated Gaza and Israel (along the Green Line traced by the armistice agreements of 1949), demanding that the blockade imposed on Gaza be lifted and the return of Palestinian refugees. Prior to the first demonstration, Israeli forces reinforced their positions at the fence with additional troops, including more than 100 sharpshooters. They permitted snipers to shoot at the legs of “main inciters” as a means to prevent a demonstrating crowd from crossing the separation fence.
Being Muslim is definitely not a race; not so sure about the Arab part.
Race is a social construct after all. Humans are all one specie of Animal. What we see are just slight genetical variation from one ethnicity/culture to another.
Wow, the other guy already addressed the history books part but I wanted to stop for a second and focus on
It’s an age-old tactic for Arabs to […]
Wonder how people would take it if we were addressing the other party in this conflict, and someone like you would throw in a gross generalisation, pointing out that it goes back a long time.
LoL, like gross generalizing hasn’t warped the word Zionist into the updated version of dirty Jew.
The history remains the same, the surrounding Arab Nations have been attacking Israel since it’s inception. they refuse to acknowledge Israel and they continue to feed bodies into martyrdom in the name of their goal of a pan arabian caliphate. The wild thing is they don’t even deny it, but the West refuses to accept their own words.
So its okay for you to do it? Must be confusing to be you mate. I won’t even touch the second part, someone posted a few links before, since you keep mentioning ‘history’ it might be time to start reading about it instead if just making things up
Most of those links supported the position that Arabs are the aggressors FFS. Did you even read them?
I’m very familiar with the history of this region, and I’m very positive that it was not the Israelis who started the wars they’ve suffered from.
It’s actually perfectly fine for Israel to defend itself, that much was made clear in the ICJ ruling. What the ruling didn’t establish though is that there’s a genocide happening.
The people who were living in the region fought off invaders, named a King and started spreading the tribes out from there according to the archeological record.
I can give multiple examples of group members who disagree with elements of their group so substantively, they split off and form new groups. Schisms are normal reactions to outside/inside actors co-opting or directing a group, Mensheviks and Bolsheviks, Protestants and Catholics, America and the Commonwealth…
If you’re upset that something is being done by a group you’re a part of, who openly declares to be working towards a goal that is unpopular outside the group, leave the group. There are plenty of Jews and Jewish groups that reject revisionist Zionism and/or Kahanism, the notion of Jewishness is not owned by a political party nor ideology. Claiming that criticism of the movement is a dog whistle, becomes unconvincing and is disingenuous to the reader
The problem with your hypothesis is that all of us can read a history book, and yet few would agree with the majority of Israeli citizens that murdering children is justified.
Again, if someone were persecuted, why would that make him want to murder random children? It makes no logical sense. The only explanation is brainwashing and religious zealotry.
You mean when King David granted lands to the tribes?
Or more recently when the British mandate was lifted, and Jordan and Israel were granted nation status by the UN? Do you know how India and Pakistan was founded?
It amazes me officials can speak like this, yet there are also the widespread reports of organ theft (esp. skin and corneas removed from bodies). Even some reports of blond babies being kidnapped from their families because they’re assumed not to be Arab. Where is the cognitive dissonance?
5% of the population is psychopathic. Folks forget this stat. They also forget that moral competence exists on a spectrum, so that even regular people are capable of great evil, especially in service to their religion.
It really depends whether he got the devs of "Lutris, Heroic, Legendary, Bottles, etc." to agree to use the unified runtime before starting this project. As long as he gets most of the big players to join then it will actually become the only standard worth using.
Isn’t one of the features of bottles etc that you can select different versions of wine on the fly per-app? This sounds like it’s meant to supersede that
It sounds like it’ll replace that functionality, but not eliminate the ability to select different versions. So instead of using whatever Bottles is doing, Bottles would use this mechanism to select WINE versions.
I think people are getting the wrong impression because it said “unify” in the title. This is mostly GE want to obsolete wine-ge/winetricks and focus on proton-ge and protontricks/fixes. Nothing out of his works, at least for now. Everything else should work the same.
Unification of standards only works if everyone agrees to use it and only it (i.e. mobile phones and USB C), otherwise you're just adding another one to the pile.
My worry is Valve will look at the project and shut it down. Remember, Valve doesn’t care about your Linux, it only cares about money. Not having users on their Client side platform means less revenue and less ads to show.
You’re the troll if you can’t explain why no one owns all the code. You can’t even accept the lawsuits that the people of America brought against to Valve Corporation.
Dont talk like you have anything worthwhile going when you refuse to acknowledge their crimes.
The code isn't the operating systems that Valve owns. networking 101, something connects to make the thing work. Not the code that follows the rules. Learn about it.
Afaik proton is BSD-3, and everything else important is part of wine which is LGPL. Sure, valve can be hostile if they choose, but they haven’t given themselves the legal tools to do much.
Proton is open source. Valve has also been incredibly supportive of and is actively contributing to an open ecosystem for Linux and SteamOS. Desktop mode in SteamOS exists so end users can install whatever tools they want on it.
This doesn’t affect valve at all though. It’s borrowing their tech that they’ve made open source, and figuring out how to use it elsewhere outside of steam.
Actually, it’ll benefit them. More eyes are on proton and any fix will benefit everyone, including games played via steam.
It’s really up to the corporation whether they think it will benefit them. I agree that Valve has so far not been hostile toward GE, and it looks like proton has a very permissive license, but if it were any other digital storefront, doing anything to allow users to consume your content without using your storefront would be seen as at attack on their bottom line.
I’m actually curious how this new standard would potentially benefit other storefronts who haven’t natively supported Linux yet. If it’s going to make things easier for existing open source launchers, then it would also make things easier for competing launchers. I know as a consumer, I want GOG, Epic, EA, etc. supporting Linux, but does valve? I don’t know, maybe, maybe not. On the one hand, maybe they don’t want competition in their niche space, on the other hand, maybe they’ll do anything to take marketshare from msft.
Valve's Proton is open source but is it also free to use and distribute in commercial software? Cuz if so, there'd be nothing stopping GOG or Epic from implementing it already, they don't need this project at all
Valve’s Proton is open source but is it also free to use and distribute in commercial software?
Yes.
Valve’s Proton code is licensed under the BSD licence, which is a “do anything you like with this code” licence.
Wine code is under the LGPL. You can ship this in commercial software as long as you “make the source code available” (which, assuming the distributor isn’t modifying the Wine code further, can be achieved by just linking people back to the main Wine project code repository).
DXVK is licensed under zlib, which is functionally the same as the BSD licence.
Someone else already explained the licenses, but to your second point, yes, nothing stops any other launcher from using proton, which is what all the other open source launchers do. And yes, no one “needs” this project, just like we don’t “need” any standards for anything, but it could make things a lot cleaner and easier to support.
This is a bigger issue for hardware than software. This is why we can use heroic, proton, lutris, or whatever. And most programmers who can offload a part of their code onto another project that is doing the job well will. That’s exactly how Linux started.
It is a big issue for software. But usually companies are happy to try to trap users into their own thing, or developers are too arrogant to work with thee work on another developer.
You realize we’re talking about multiple projects based on WINE, which has had updates supplied by Valve, who has made a Linux distribution, which is based on multiple different projects all packaged together in one big install file, right?
Yes, you will get ego and “not invented here” syndrome in software, even in open software. But these groups are literally based on building off another person or group’s idea to make something better or easier.
Haven’t you heard of the stories ego or hubris that make projects split and die? Maybe you’re one of those people who think Linux was already fine 10 years ago and users should try a little bit to use it instead of setting for Windows without thinking?
Diversity is a strength. But hubris is a weakness. Inventing a new standard every 6 months is stupid.
C is 50 years old. Http is 30 years old, as is python. We forgot about fortrans, and it is a good thing. But you don’t build lasting things on technologies that are revolutionised every 6 months.
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From the naming it’s clear that GE wants this to be the new standard, but it’s not really a new standard. This is porting Steam’s launcher, which already exists, to non-Steam clients.
I’m tired of seeing devs on Discords and Slack channels jerk themselves raw with it every time they get any kind of negative feedback whatsoever on a change they pushed.
Or someone who doesn't like generic comments. You could paste half those on any comment chain. They're the equivalent of an upvote but the commenters felt the need to say it instead. Good downvotes.
They were created via a prompt, that prompt probably included some tags to make them more attractive. It's often standard practice to put tags like "ugly" and "deformed" into the negative prompts just to keep the hands and facial features from going wonky.
There are no elderly women, no female toddlers, and so forth either. Presumably just not what whoever generated this was going for. You can get those from many AI models if you want them.
Battleship coordinates, (B10). Also (I4) looks a lot like my niece. I really think it depends on your definition of "average" though. But as @fubo indicated. There are 0% black people in this photo. There's some vaguely Asian, roughly Middle Eastern looking, sort of South American, and whatever that is going on in (M8). But there are distinctly zero black people pictured.
In using Stable Diffusion for a DnD related project, I’ve found that it’s actually weirdly hard to get it to generate people (of either sex) that aren’t attractive - I wonder if it’s a bias in the training materials, or a deliberate bias introduced into the models because most people want attractive people in their AI pics
That’s true, but it’s not like ugly people don’t get photographed - ultimately a professional photographer is going to take photos of whoever pays them to do so. That explanation accounts for part of the bias I think, but not all of it
If I would get pictures taken by a photographer I would not allow them to be used as training data. I don’t even like looking into a mirror. Maybe that’s part of why there are less ugly people pictures to train with.
But then, the other day I was messing around with an image generation model and it took me way too long to realize that it was only generating East Asian-looking faces unless explicitly instructed not to.
Yeah, but LUMBIES is missing catScratcher integration! That’s a core feature for my use case and the dev has taken a (ridiculous IMO) proud moral stance against any sort of felidae-adjacent features
Gumboss doesn’t work with the new version of .net and no merge requests have been accepted in like 8 months so you have to manually patch each instance of it yourself to get it work.
There’s a script you can download to do this automatically and it works a good 70% of the time!
Wdym, are you expecting me to explain something using nothing at all‽
This is really very relatable, some projects lack both clarity and documentation, and trying to make sense of internals from the examples is a mess of a process
Funny you should mention GitHub actions. It’s exactly one of those tools where I was like “this seems cool. I would like to use it, but I don’t even know what for…” and then when I tried to look into it some more I was just more confused than before.
I mean I was just going to put them on my feet… That’s what they’re for, right? RIGHT?!
Oh god, now I don’t know either…
Nothing is certain!
Reality is starting to crumble!!!
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