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OccamsTeapot

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OccamsTeapot ,

If a neighbouring state blew up your house, killing your children and your wife, would you be more or less likely to commit violent acts against them?

This will not keep Israel safe. It will only create further generations that hate them.

OccamsTeapot ,

You really just didn’t engage with the question/point at all huh?

I literally did none of that.

OccamsTeapot ,

You are free to explain why someone is denying genocide. You are not free to make that accusation because you do not know the reasoning behind their statements. People have the right to disagree that something is happening and be wrong.

So all the people (including YourPrivatHater) who accuse others of being antisemitic are also breaking this rule, aren’t they?

They do not know the reasoning behind the statement that prompted the accusation and it is very uncivil to say that. How can that be different?

OccamsTeapot ,

I just reported two more. Lots more coming your way soon I’m sure, lol

Edit: sorry you’re right, I think I can just still see them on sync

OccamsTeapot ,

Yeah I understand now, apologies for the mistake

OccamsTeapot ,

If we only count instances like these we see from Israel, where an innocent person is literally used as a shield and not just sat at home or something, how many cases of Hamas using human shields actually are there?

OccamsTeapot ,

They have a “no go” zone in the city where I live. I went there. It is nice. The people are poor by Swedish standards but if you’re not from here you would not bat an eye. The only way you believe this is if you have never been to Sweden, or at least not a “no go” zone and/or you get all your news from racist right wing fuckwits who desperately try to convince you that Arabs are destroying European society.

OP Sweden is nice, even Stockholm and Gothenburg, just a bit expensive

OccamsTeapot ,

If it was a war on Hamas, nothing would escalate in the West Bank. If it was a genocide against Palestinians… well…

OccamsTeapot ,

Oh look it’s that stuff we’re told isn’t happening.

OccamsTeapot ,

Do you have sympathy for the emaciated child? What do you think about that?

OccamsTeapot ,

It was a question not a conclusion. Actually I asked so I didn’t have to come to one before understanding what your position is

OccamsTeapot ,

It’s because I don’t understand how you can see that image and read that story and immediately jump to Hamas. Instead of saying “this has to stop” all you did was point the finger at Hamas. It comes across as totally callous

OccamsTeapot ,

The problem is that Israel actually announced that they were going to cut off food and water to the population, and they have recently destroyed vital infrastructure. So if you come at this without acknowledging that of course people are going to downvote you.

Both are to blame. Hamas more so than Israel.

Both yes. But how is Hamas more to blame than Israel?

I would like to see your source about the pipes, it seems a little unclear from a quick Google. But it seems like the bigger problem is the destruction of the desalination plants by Israel. Even if they were in tact they need fuel to run. I find it difficult to believe that this is truly more on Hamas than it is on Israel.

OccamsTeapot ,

This video of them using the water pipes comes from here. See the same clip at 4 minutes in. The pipes were from Israeli settlements. The Telegraph just reused the footage and threw in some vague stuff about the EU, without actually saying where the pipes came from.

Unless you have something showing that the pipes were to supply water to Gaza? Rather than to steal it.

Well prior to Oct7 water was there

You should read that article I posted last time. It was already pretty bad. And then as I said Israel blew up the desalination plants. How does this make it more Hamas than Israel?

But all that is irrelevant as first blood was drawn by Hamas. Resulting deaths are a response to that.

History did not start on October 7th. “First blood” lol you must be joking. Ever heard of the Nakba?

If Hamas really cared about civilians…

From this point on you’re just repeating talking points. No need to go into all this when we’re talking about the clear factual reality of why this poor child and many like him have severe malnutrition.

OccamsTeapot ,

Obviously, much like South Africa, the human rights council is just another legal arm of Hamas. They are an incredibly powerful and well connected organisation with widespread support in major institutions, humanitarian organizations, the UN and grassroots support across the world. How did they achieve this? 🤷‍♂️ but obviously if we acknowledge that this is an insane conspiracy theory we would have to admit all of crimes that Israel is doing and we can’t have that now can we

OccamsTeapot ,

Sweden is technically a monarchy but a constitutional one. Jordan is actually a traditional monarchy, just weakly pretending to be a constitutional one.

OccamsTeapot ,

Even stating the well documented FACTs I listed about Hamas and what they have done, gets downvoted. Is that not extremely fucked up?

This is a story about 50k children getting sicker because Israel is intentionally starving them. And yet all you did was talk about Hamas. Nothing about these kids. That is extremely fucked up and that is why you got downvoted.

You see starving kids and you respond with the very propaganda used by the perpetrators to justify it

OccamsTeapot ,

How long had that “ceasefire” been going?

OccamsTeapot ,

Yeah I was confused about what you meant because of this: https://www.theguardian.com/world/2023/jul/03/palestinians-killed-israeli-strike-west-bank-jenin

And this: https://reliefweb.int/report/occupied-palestinian-territory/2023-marks-deadliest-year-record-children-occupied-west-bank

And this: https://reliefweb.int/report/occupied-palestinian-territory/pulling-trigger-first-resort-palestinians-killed-israeli-army-and-settlers-2022-enar

And all of this: https://pchrgaza.org/en/israeli-human-rights-violations-in-the-occupied-palestinian-territory-weekly-update-27-september-04-october-2023/

It seems like there was never a cease fire? Israel has been firing the whole time. And before you say that most of this was in the West Bank, it is all attacks on Palestine. Just because it has been broken up doesn’t make the people different and I don’t think Hamas and other militant groups see this as anything other than Israel attacking Palestine. Hamas called October 7th “Al-Aqsa Flood” for a reason.

OccamsTeapot ,

I mean if Hamas and Israel both consider it a ceasefire, let’s by all means ignore that and defer to a random Lemmy user.

I’m not asking for deference, we both just found examples of continuing conflict. Why would you describe this as a ceasefire? You don’t need to believe me, just use your brain.

If two people are punching each other in the face but insist they are not fighting, what do we believe: them, or our own eyes?

It is obvious. Those hypothetical people are fighting. And likewise, there was no ceasefire.

OccamsTeapot ,

“Terrorism is ok when we do it”

OccamsTeapot ,

This strategy of the government calling every troublesome minority ethnic group anywhere “terrorists” got kicked into high gear when the US government started using 9/11 as an excuse to commit war crimes and remove restrictions from police forces (like the right of habeas corpus), and it has been a constant slippery slope since then.

Yeah we apparently did not learn a single fucking thing from 9/11 and the shit show that followed.

OccamsTeapot ,

Oh no no, Israel are monsters whether they accept or not. You can’t kill over 10k children and purposefully try to create a famine and get away without that label.

Gaza needs to be “dehamasafied” a la Berlin 1945

If you think the current conflict hasn’t created more terrorists than it’s killed you are not thinking empathetically. If a nearby state killed your whole family and destroyed your home because some authoritarian regime you never voted for pissed them off and you could do nothing about it, would you really be less likely to want to take up arms against them? Give me a break.

The only solution is peace. The only way to get true peace is to give Palestine a proper state and freedom from occupation. Dismantle illegal settlements. Immediately release “administrative detainees” held without charge (aka hostages). In short, give Palestinians the same respect and rights as everybody else. You cannot bomb this problem out of existence.

OccamsTeapot ,

Well peace, until Hamas has gathered more strength and attacks Israel again, right?

No, by peace I mean peace. Like the ordinary meaning of the word.

How many months of peace do you think it will be before they’re firing rockets into Israel again?

Maybe if Israel tries not oppressing people? Wild idea I know. Not a defence of their actions, but if you abuse a people for long enough it’s not exactly unexpected is it? My previous comment is full of ideas that would make this much less likely to happen. It could be stopped entirely with diplomacy, although without addressing the serious systemic inequalities it would probably flare up again, yeah.

The only solution is the dehamasification of Gaza.

How do you achieve this? Do you think the current conflict is going to plan in this regard?

OccamsTeapot , (edited )

Each side wants the complete destruction of the other.

I don’t think this is true. Hamas’ charter supports a two state solution, for example.

We can’t just say “be peaceful” and walk away and know that they will never attack each other again.

No shit. Did you even read what I wrote?

You can’t have perpetual peace in this ongoing conflict man

You get peace by addressing the issues that created the conflict. Is this not obvious? It’s ongoing because of shit like the illegal settlements and the blockade of Gaza. The land was stolen but agreements can be reached to split it, if the sides are willing. Of course they tried with the Oslo Accords and it didn’t go so well (eg the illegal settlements yet again). Calling it a perpetual conflict is giving up. We need a peace agreement which is actually enforced.

“Dehamasification” isn’t bombing and killing all of Hamas, so no I don’t think the current situation is being successful. It’s a long term project that will likely take decades, with an international occupation force overseeing it.

But yeah fair enough. So if this is not working we need an immediate ceasefire. And yeah I agree it will take time.

But this specific conflict does not end until Hamas surrenders. Israel will not stop until that end is met. We can argue all day about the morality of that, but it doesn’t matter, that’s the reality of the facts on the ground at this moment

The morality does matter. Israel is not a force of nature. What they are doing is wrong and we need an international coalition to make them stop. “The reality of the facts on the ground” is that innocent people are dying every day and Israel is making that happen. And Hamas kicked off this particular round of fighting so they also get some of the blame.

Edit, missed this part:

Like post-war Germany, this won’t be some overnight fix. It will take immense resources and effort. Is that going to happen?

It should. I don’t know how this will end but we can’t just allow this to continue. Nobody wants another October 7th and nobody wants another 8 months of livestreamed war crimes in response

OccamsTeapot ,

Well excuse me if I don’t think we should all bend over and do what Israel wants. Why should being an obstinate cunt about it mean you get your way? Sanction, threaten, UNSC resolutions, and actually enforce it.

We can’t just force Israel to stop their campaign and release all prisoners.

We could fucking try. Can you imagine making this type of argument about the holocaust? Well you know guys, we all hate the genocide but Hitler really wants to keep killing jews so we have to work with him on that.

It’s far more complicated than just “Israel and Hamas bad, they should be peaceful will each other”

Obviously. This straw man is pointless. But when I talk about dismantling illegal settlements, Palestinian statehood and freedom, you just ignore that? Why? There are many practical steps I have suggested and many others that people with actual expertise could suggest.

OccamsTeapot ,

I don’t care what Israel wants. Like I said, Hitler wanted to keep killing Jews - should we have worked with him? Should we have let him continue? You point out that we bombed them into submission but somehow don’t support this solution with Israel’s unreasonable demands, why?

I don’t think boots on the ground would be necessary if we actually sanctioned Israel, stopped providing arms, made them a pariah. But if it came to it and that was the only way to prevent more bloodshed, then we should do it.

It’s pointless to sit here and say “well they should just give Hamas everything they want” because they will not.

First off. Negotiations don’t work that way. Both sides must make concessions. Of course we shouldn’t give Hamas everything they want.

Second, why do you seem to think it’s ok that we give Israel everything they want? Just because they’re currently winning thanks to US and generally western weapons and backing?

OccamsTeapot ,

Then we should declare war on Israel is your perspective?

Did you miss this part?

I don’t think boots on the ground would be necessary if we actually sanctioned Israel, stopped providing arms, made them a pariah. But if it came to it and that was the only way to prevent more bloodshed, then we should do it.

Sanction. Boycott. Make demands with actual consequences. Then if none of that works, international peacekeeping forces should stop the genocide immediately.

If you truly think the US will ever declare war on Israel, you’re insane and this conversation can end here. It’s so out of the realm of reality

Yeah that’s why I did not say that.

The only way this specific conflict will end is either complete destruction of Hamas, or their complete surrender. Period.

Wrong. Cease fire. Prisoner exchanges. Happened many times before.

Again WHY do you think everyone should bend over backwards to do what Israel wants “for peace” but not make any concessions for Hamas? Don’t you understand that peace requires both sides to actually agree?

Are you thinking that Hamas is actually going to lay down their arms? Or that if they were destroyed another terror group wouldn’t take their place? Is that realistic?

OccamsTeapot ,

You ignore everything else so you can pretend you’re being “realistic” and everyone with morals is “living in a fantasy land.” Ronald fucking Reagan suspended weapons delivery to them so let’s not pretend it’s so impossible.

Reagan not only supported UNSC Resolution 487, which condemned the attack, but he also criticized the raid publicly and suspended the delivery of advanced F-16 fighter jets to Israel.

And since you’re just ignoring anything inconvenient to you, I’ll just leave this question here again…

Again WHY do you think everyone should bend over backwards to do what Israel wants “for peace” but not make any concessions for Hamas? Don’t you understand that peace requires both sides to actually agree?

OccamsTeapot ,

Probably not but I think it’s good to make the case and to give people a chance.

But yeah that seems to be it. Israel gets everything “it’s the only way, I’m just being realistic” and Hamas surrenders entirely and gets nothing because… that is “realistic” apparently? This will make Palestinians stop fighting for their freedom, somehow? Bizarre logic.

OccamsTeapot ,

Of which there were 23 women and children. Something something Hamas

OccamsTeapot ,

After his mother’s death in 1971 he started taking antidepressants and amphetamines, despite the concern of his friends, one of whom (Ron Graham) bet him $500 that he could not stop taking them for a month. Erdős won the bet, but complained that it impacted his performance: “You’ve showed me I’m not an addict. But I didn’t get any work done. I’d get up in the morning and stare at a blank piece of paper. I’d have no ideas, just like an ordinary person. You’ve set mathematics back a month.”

The Israeli army says it investigates itself. Where do those investigations stand? (apnews.com)

Throughout its grinding seven-month war against Hamas, Israel has pledged to investigate a series of deadly events in which its military forces are suspected of wrongdoing. The commitment comes in the face of mounting claims — from human rights groups and the International Criminal Court ‘s chief prosecutor — that the...

OccamsTeapot ,

We still have no answer from them on what happened to Hind. God I wonder why surely the unflinchingly moral and self-investigating IDF wouldn’t lie about or cover up what happened.

OccamsTeapot ,

Israel is so bad that this isn’t even shocking anymore

OccamsTeapot ,

It’s really weird how they emphasise this “rape and abuse of women” line when things are looking bad for them. It’s like they see this as the thing that generates the most outrage, and all they have left say in their defense is “Hamas is evil.” So they try to make everyone focus on the emotional response to the horrors on October 7th so it “feels” like this is a fair justification.

They have had this footage for over 7 months. And it just so happens that they sat on it until now, and released it shortly after the ICJ ruling. Hmmmmmmm

They seem to think they can distract everybody with this like they’re jingling keys for a baby

OccamsTeapot ,

Imagine being stuck between Hamas, who uses your suffering to increase support for their cause, and Israel who is more than happy to kill you anyway. And rather than sympathise with these poor people you take to the internet to defend the murderers in the IDF just because the other side is also bad.

Imagine if you were close enough to your humanity to feel for the people suffering instead of just running transparent PR for the ones killing thousands and thousands of children

OccamsTeapot ,

I think if you can’t see the implications of this in the current context you are lost. This focus on the horrendous crimes that took place on October 7th is being used to justify a genocide. Of course it was horrendous. But ever since then we have seen a continuous stream of horrendous crimes, and narrowly focusing on the 1,200 victims of October 7th is a game to distract attention from the 35,000 + mainly innocent people who have been brutally killed in the almost 8 months since then and still being killed now.

This story on it’s own is about despicable crimes and there would be nothing to object to. The wider context and specific timing make it more sinister

OccamsTeapot ,

Yes but bad man is worse so it’s all ok, nothing to see here

OccamsTeapot ,

This is so fucking dumb. I don’t care, it doesn’t make what Biden is doing any better. This is not the voting booth

OccamsTeapot ,

Elden Ring! I think they really refined the formula, made it a bit more user friendly (I started with Dark Souls and it wasn’t easy to know what to do), and is generally fun to play. Also the open world format means you can just go somewhere else if you’re stuck, not just have to bang your head against the same boss over and over. Then you just come back when you’re stronger.

Sekiro is not a bad option too, it’s a bit more like a regular game than the others. You can pause! Imagine.

I haven’t played DS2 or Demon Souls though

OccamsTeapot ,

All those words and yet no condemnation of what seems to have happened here. Not even “if this is true it is disgusting, but…”

This tells everybody reading that you don’t actually care about people suffering, you just took a “side” like a football hooligan and have nothing of value to add to the conversation

OccamsTeapot ,

Isn’t this discussion about the brutal and torturous conditions Palestinians are subjected to by Israel? What do you think about that? As in, the article in the OP. Is it cool with you or a bad thing that should be stopped?

If you answer my (relevant) question I will happily attempt to answer your (irrelevant) one.

OccamsTeapot ,

I am utterly Pro-Palestinian.

In what sense? Do you support statehood? An end to the occupation of and illegal settlements in the West Bank?

OccamsTeapot ,

Since we’re copying and pasting:

I am utterly Pro-Palestinian.

In what sense? Do you support statehood? An end to the occupation of and illegal settlements in the West Bank?

OccamsTeapot ,

Interesting you agree with him, having created your account less than an hour ago and so far having done little other than copy his comments word for word. Sock puppet?

OccamsTeapot ,

Are you Crass Spektakel? And if not why are you repeating their comments exactly?

OccamsTeapot ,

“Safety concerns”

There were instances where I heard staff discuss whether detainees from Gaza should get painkillers. Or ways to perform certain procedures that can turn the treatment into punishment.

_

One doctor with knowledge of conditions there said prolonged cuffing to beds would cause “huge suffering, horrible suffering”, describing it as “torture” and saying patients would start to feel pain after a few hours.

_

So, if you put together [that] someone is undergoing an invasive procedure, which involves even incisions, and doesn’t know about that, and is blindfolded, then the line between treatment and assault thins out.”

_

"This period was mental and physical torture,” he said. “I can’t describe it. I was detained with two legs and now I have only one. Every now and then, I cry.”

This is torture. The “staff in a free country” raising their “safety concerns” are whistleblowers and the IDF’s response is that (often innocent) detainees were treated “appropriately and carefully” but then when given details…

The IDF did not respond to the specific allegations about Sufian’s treatment, but said the claims of violence towards him during his arrest or detention “were unknown and will be examined”.

So what all of this is leading towards is… Are these the people you’re taking to the internet to defend? Are you fucking seriously doing a “bu… but the other side!!” in response to very credible accusations of torture?

You seem to think this is all fine but the staff working there do not:

Yoel Donchin, the anaesthesiologist, said medical staff at the field hospital sometimes gathered together to cry over the situation there. “The moment our hospital closes,” he said, “we’ll celebrate.”

These people are the hypocrites you should be angry about and the fact that you tried to deflect onto Gazans tells me everything I need to know about you. You should be ashamed of yourself. If you can read about torture and not even acknowledge how wrong it is, and instead take to the comments to defend them, you might actually be evil.

OccamsTeapot ,

If he’s so upset about being compared to mass murderers he should have not murdered people en masse. It’s actually very easy to not do that

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