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ooterness ,

I saw that happen once in a big presentation.

There was a team of students presenting their work to ~200 people. Right in the middle, a pop-up says updates are finished and the computer needs to restart. It has a helpful 60-second countdown, but “cancel” is grayed out, so all they can do is watch.

I was only in the audience and I still have nightmares.

zcd ,

Those kids are still wincing to this day

DmMacniel ,

shutdown -a couldn’t help in that situation?

DoctorWhookah ,

They didn’t know, but yea.

bjorney ,

For every 1 person who knows how to use the windows command line, there are 50 people struggling because they didn’t embed their video into their PowerPoint, or worse, their USB stick only contains a shortcut to their actual .ppt file

Hubi ,
@Hubi@lemmy.world avatar

their USB stick only contains a shortcut to their actual .ppt file

This happened all the time when I was in middle school. Way to activate a suppressed memory.

KairuByte ,
@KairuByte@lemmy.dbzer0.com avatar

I mean, not to beat a dead horse but those are precisely the type of people who would push off an update forever if given the choice.

Not that a midday, mid work reboot is acceptable.

Nisaea ,
@Nisaea@lemmy.sdf.org avatar

That’s a very generous estimate. I didn’t know about it and I work in IT.

Cethin ,

I love these comments. If you need to use the command line (the largest argument people have against Linux) why are people still arguing to stay on Windows? Hell, Linux you don’t even need the terminal if you don’t want to use it and choose the right distro.

(I recognize that for schools and offices, people don’t have a choice. These students were probably on a personal laptop though, so they could have a choice. The issue is Windows comes as default and no one actually makes a choice. They don’t choose Windows. They just have Windows.)

freeman ,

Windows always gets a pass from it’s fans. They also tend to overestimate average users’ proficiency with computers (meaning windows) way more than linux users.

Most windows users would be afraid to change stuff on CP or Settings never mind opening up policy editor or registry editor.

They regularly fail to install applications on windows (a big part of them would probably not even try) or install something different than intended.

Usually they end up running million unnecessary things on startup, having completely unresponsive systems. They just shrug and cope with it till they pay someone to format their computer or they buy a new one.

Ibuthyr ,

The arrogance of some Linux users… You just can’t fathom that most people just want to use the OS their PC came with. These people don’t want to struggle with the incompatibilities that come with Linux systems. Troubleshooting Linux systems is a daunting task for most casual users. It’s great that you use Linux because fuck greedy corporations. But stop being so uppity about it. This toxic behavior is what steers people away from Linux forums.

freeman ,

You just can’t fathom that most people just want to use the OS their PC came with.

No they don’t they want to get a task done. The vast majority of users doesn’t know what an OS or a browser is never mind that there are alternatives.

These people don’t want to struggle with the incompatibilities that come with Linux systems.

Most people are simply not aware of Linux systems let alone linux system incompatibilities.

Troubleshooting Linux systems is a daunting task for most casual users.

No shit, troubleshooting windows is a daunting task for most casual users. They either nag/pay someone to try and fix it or simply cope with it. And windows fucks up all the time, especially for most users.

It’s great that you use Linux because fuck greedy corporations. But stop being so uppity about it. This toxic behavior is what steers people away from Linux forums.

People don’t just randomly get on Linux forums, especially linux memes forums. Nor is my previous comment in any way or form toxic. I just pointed out the blind spot of windows fans, you just can’t handle criticism.

pineapplelover ,

Damn I forgot about that

fluxion ,

Then it proceeds to take 10 minutes to boot. Happened to me before an important meeting once and i just couldn’t believe it. wtf makes Microsoft think they can get away with shit like this?

Tyoda ,

Probably that they very obviously are!

Serinus ,

Just blame the users. Easy.

funkless_eck ,

our work uses macs but also Kandji for software management, which also locks you into restarts during business hours 😎

phdepressed ,

Usually for large businesses like universities IT can choose when to push updates.

FiniteBanjo ,

Some versions like Home and Education might lack the options, but most Enterprise versions and LTSC versions can let you delay updates via the menu or disable updates completely via group policy fuckery.

Still bullshit that they have to, though.

Pacmanlives ,

Shutdown -a or whatever the flag is should abort it if I remember correctly

pkmkdz ,

Yeah -a for “abort” Still, an user shouldn’t have to know that

raspberriesareyummy ,

wtf makes Microsoft think they can get away with shit like this?

I’d wager a guess it’s people dumb enough to constantly put up with shit like this?

Duamerthrax ,

Combined with myopic developers who always have the newest hardware and fastest connection.

raspberriesareyummy ,

yeah, that’s another epic IT fail of humanity

barsquid ,

They think they can get away with it because they keep getting away with it.

SeekPie ,

giphy-1860348387

Cornelius_Wangenheim , (edited )

Because the alternative is people getting compromised and getting their computer crypto locked, accounts stolen or their bank account drained.

freeman ,

Other OSes can update everything while running and you just reboot to the updated system. Microsoft could definitely fix their update process they are not incompetent, they just don’t care.

TonyOstrich ,

The super duper shitty thing is that they could have canceled it by opening the Run dialog box and typing “shutdown -a”, so it’s not even like canceling wasn’t an option. M$ just decided to be dicks about it

modifier ,

M$ just decided to be dicks about it

A most concise yet comprehensive company bio.

ooterness ,

Maybe? If I recall correctly, this was Windows XP. Also the computer was owned by the school, so the students didn’t have admin access.

DV8 ,

That screen didn’t exist in Win XP. If it had, it would have been a different shade of blue. This is either Win10 though I suspect it’s Win11.

ooterness ,

The event I’m referring to wasn’t OP’s photo. Mine was back in 2004 or 2005, long before Win10 was released.

polle ,

Is this a w11 thing? Or does o&o shutup in default settings disable stuff like that. I actually never have seen a forced reboot like that myself.

It sounds really shitty and i dislike windows alot.

Ibuthyr ,

It only happens if you neglect to install updates for a very long time, which is a pretty dumb thing to do. This is actually a non-issue if you just install the damn updates once they’re announced. Just update when shutting down. Also, using home edition is pretty dumb. With the pro version you’ll likely never run into this problem.

thefrankring ,
@thefrankring@lemmy.world avatar

Windows disagrees with the thesis.

InternetCitizen2 OP ,

So did the rest of the committee.

fmstrat ,

Oof

nifty ,
@nifty@lemmy.world avatar

Is this a joke, or did your friend really fail? Would be interested to know what happened, if you don’t mind sharing

InternetCitizen2 OP ,

No, he passed.

istanbullu ,

this is why you use linux

olutukko ,

linux can have some pretty weird quirks though. (don’t get me wrong I’ve been dailydriving linux for several years and I’m not going to use windows unless I’m forced)

one time I was about to do presentation, I has multiple files and windows in order to present the whole program we had developed, some powerpoint, demo, and the source code.

then came my time to do the presentation and I plugged in the hdmi cable and my fucking account just logged out. dunno if the session crashed or something, but I had to quickly scramble everything back since all my apps were closed lol.

I do have older quadro nvidia though

JackbyDev ,

HDMI? Don’t you know HDCP is proprietary? Best to just log out. Stallman was right and all!

dust_accelerator ,

Having been in a similar situation, I now bash script things like that, so it’s ./present_dat_shit.sh and you’re up and ready, even if things bug out. If it’s a really important presentation, you can also add a live boot SSD backup if you’re serious about redundancy.

uis ,

Live boot SSD backup that boots right into presentation.

uis ,

Important question: is mesa? If not, then fuck Nvidia. If yes, then fuck Nvidia regardless, but karlherbst and other nouveau devs would like to get crashlogs if there was crash.

Was it reproduced later? What enviroment?

olutukko ,

nah propiertary, sometimes happens randomly and gnome

uis ,

Ah. When I was using proprietary, I had problems too.

jorp ,

had to recompile my audio drivers with headphone support just before thesis defense

yokonzo , (edited )

This looks like a public office space. You really gonna go argue with the building admin?

JackbyDev ,

“Hey boss, the display in the corner office automatically updated. Can we get IT to switch everything to Linux?”

yokonzo ,

“why would we do that? Our systems don’t work on that, our people aren’t trained on that, no, get back to work”

I think that would be a pretty accurate reply to a casual request for an entire infrastructure change

EvolvedTurtle ,

“there is a bomb strapped to my chest, if you don’t install Linux on every computer in here I will explode taking you with me”

I wouldn’t recommend this method but It might work out

pkmkdz ,

Next day headlines:
“Linux user blows up an office. Is Linux a cult?”

EvolvedTurtle ,

I mean Is it wrong tho

Gestrid ,

The IT admin: youtu.be/5l6l9T2w1DQ

the_doktor ,

our systems

Guaranteed all of your backend systems are running Linux. If not, holy hell why.

our people aren’t trained on that

Oh no, pointy-clicky on things on a desktop is so hard to train for people who have used an OS where you… um… pointy-clicky on things on a desktop. Whatever shall we do.

Excuses. All I hear from people who want to keep obsolete, trash, laughable, insecure Windows.

yokonzo ,

Complain all you want, not a single manager out there is going to shut down any part of the active systems in place and potentially lose business to upgrade to Linux. At that point, just bring your own laptop instead of moaning about it.

And I used to think the “just switch to linux” guys were a meme, bro you’re making me want to switch back to windows out of spite

the_doktor ,

Enjoy your BSOD and Microsoft stealing all your data, then.

yokonzo ,

It’s like talking to a little kid

EvolvedTurtle ,

Yes

sunshine ,

You don’t need admin to plug your computer into the AV do you? I assumed it was OP’s computer.

yokonzo ,

Depends on how it’s set up i guess, but if it’s your own PC that’s kind of on you id imagine

yokonzo ,

Sure, but are you really going to go find the building admin and argue with them to update all of their OS’ to something they probably don’t understand? Linux is primarily a power user platform, not a mainstream one.

CodingCarpenter ,

This is why you check your equipment before any important events

AeonFelis ,

What if Windows decided to update after you finished checking the equipment? I mean, they do use AI to determine the worst time for an update…

AnyOldName3 ,
@AnyOldName3@lemmy.world avatar

They update on two Tuesdays a month, and have done that at least since XP. Even with the most reboot-keen settings, the update doesn’t happen until the time of day you’re least likely to be using the machine based on when you typically do it. It tells you when that time will be and gives you several hours of notice with a popup with the option to delay. Depending on the variant of Windows you’re using, you have settings to delay a forced reboot for up to a week (Home), a month (Pro) or forever (Enterprise). Obviously, that’s not enough to make sure no one ever gets updates forced on them when they don’t want them, and it would be nice if there was a way to distinguish users who know what they’re doing from users who don’t so people who do could be given more power to control if and when they install updates, but it is enough to ensure that checking the equipment before you use it is enough, potentially two weeks in advance.

Gestrid ,

They update on two Tuesdays a month

Correction: It updates every second Tuesday of the month. (Not including any potential “Preview” updates which might get released. Those are all optional updates, though.)

TachyonTele ,

Yeah dude. Just get every computer at school and business to use Linux. Duh.

🙄

bstix ,

“Don’t turn off” is the worst kind of status message.

When it eventually hangs for various reasons, you actually do need to turn off your pc for it to complete or to let it roll back in an error state.

When “just hang in there” is still present on the third day you’ll start wondering why you bought that piece of furniture and won’t mind the consequences of turning it off.

null ,

What should it say instead?

jawa21 ,
@jawa21@lemmy.sdf.org avatar

Console output with status of the current operation, including error and warning messages

AspieEgg ,

Not to defend Windows too much in a Linux community, but you can turn on verbose status messages for the screens you see during startup, shutdown, login and log off. It’s a setting that can either be turned on with the local or domain group policy, or by registry key.

Still though, it’s not as detailed as full console output, but is definitely more helpful than just telling you to wait.

CEbbinghaus ,
@CEbbinghaus@lemmy.world avatar

Source please. I need this as I am forced to use Windows for work. Where is the registry key I need to change mlord

AspieEgg ,

In group policy (local or domain):
Computer Configuration > Administrative Templates > System > Display highly detailed status messages

Also make sure that this policy is not set or set to disabled:
Computer Configuration > Administrative Templates > System > Remove Boot / Shutdown / Logon / Logoff status messages

Instead of using local group policy you could use the registry:
HKEY_LOCAL_MACHINE\SOFTWARE\Microsoft\Windows\CurrentVersion\Policies\System
“VerboseStatus”=dword:00000001

If you do it through registry, make sure this key is either non-existant or set to 0.
HKEY_LOCAL_MACHINE\SOFTWARE\Microsoft\Windows\CurrentVersion\Policies\System
“DisableStatusMessages”

If you use Windows a lot, get used to the group policy editor. Your computer should have the local group policy editor on it. If you’ve never used it before, you’ll be surprised at how configurable Windows can be if you know where to look. They just don’t really give those options to the everyday user.

CEbbinghaus ,
@CEbbinghaus@lemmy.world avatar

Thanks. That should also be fairly easy to automate. Might set it up as a powershell script so I have it on every Windows pc I am forced to use. Much appreciated kind stranger

BURN ,

The average user does not want to see that and does not need to see that. That’s how you end up with thousands of support requests of “why is my computer showing these errors?”

Things should be abstracted from the users by default. There’s no need for grandma to see a console output every time windows needs to update.

TimeNaan ,

I disagree. I think that some aspects of the software should be open about what they’re doing to everyone. Otherwise people just get used to the idea that everything is a black box that they have no real control of. It also helps educate people on IT and its concepts overall.

Even if they can’t specifically tell what is going on, they can see something is going on. And as long as this does not make it harder to use, the more info the better.

Holzkohlen ,

This is on you. You prepare your computer ahead of time. Do updates the night before, check if everything works. You also have an empty battery? Like I loathe windows as much as anyone, but this would never ever happen to me. I triple check it all, especially if it runs windows.

NaoPb ,

Forced updates are still terrible.

pyre ,

nah. at worst it’s the lesser of two evils. the alternative is keeping a crushing majority of the user base vulnerable forever because virtually no one likes to voluntarily update their os.

laurelraven ,

No, they’re terrible. Windows can and does know when a system is least in use and is supposed to handle this during those periods. Updates are important but this is an excessive and unnecessary way to fix the issue of people not performing their own updates.

pyre ,

… and it does handle this during those periods. unless you tell it not to. or set the non working hours wrong.

laurelraven ,

I’ve frequently seen Windows ignore that setting and force the restart while the system is actively being used

The mega corp neither needs or deserves your defense. They’ve fucked up the update system with Windows 10 and it’s not gotten any better since then.

Incandemon ,

Seconding this, I can’t think of a time that I’ve actually had windows respect my configured update window.

I’d also like to point out how annoying it is that manually hitting the update button doesn’t seem to do anything. If I hit the button I want to dedicate the full system resources to updating right now, not just keep doing what it was doing but add a skinny thing.

ArcaneSlime ,

Pfffft it’s so much easier to update when it doesn’t shut your shit down for 1hr and instead downloads 573MB of updates in a tiny window you can leave up while going about your business and can choose when to do it by typing “sudo dnf update -y” and your password into said tiny window.

Besides, you can tell linux to auto update if you want, and you’ll never notice it doing so in the background (well it’ll likely tell you depending on the distro but if it didn’t, you’d never notice as it is non-intrusive.)

pyre ,

the download does happen in the background. the installation is what requires shutting down. i only find out there’s any update when the shutdown button is marked and whenever I’m done i tell it to install the update and shutdown. it’s really not as bad as you guys desperately seem to want it to be.

ArcaneSlime ,

Oh my mistake, I didn’t mean to say the wrong part took 1hr+ and it was actually the other part, silly me. Meanwhile on linux there’s still no such annoyance. You do know we all used to use windows and got fed up with it’s bullshit and jumped ship right? You can stay a frog in boiling water all you want, those of us who jumped out of the pot can see the burner.

pyre ,

whatever floats your boat. keep getting things wrong so you can feel better about jumping ship i guess?

ArcaneSlime ,

Lmao you really think “nuh uh the long annoying part isn’t the download it’s the install” is better than “well linux has neither issue” don’t you? Bless your heart.

pyre ,

… no? i guess you’re having a different conversation in your head than the one your eyes should be reading.

ArcaneSlime ,

Oh I forgot to mention “nuh uh windows doesn’t do that thing it definitely does, you and everyone else who ever experienced it are just crazy.”

pyre ,

you are sounding more crazy with every comment, that part is accurate.

ArcaneSlime ,

Lol sure buddy, whatever helps you cope. Why don’t you go infect yourself with some ransomware hmm?

pyre ,

too bad Linux doesn’t protect mental health

ArcaneSlime ,

That’s what trolling you is for.

pyre ,

oh boy that’s weak.

ArcaneSlime ,

No u. Sorry to disappoint, I can’t dedicate any more time than passing quips to this waste of a conversation though, unfortunately I do have a life outside of lemmy.

pyre ,

check the word counts in this thread

ArcaneSlime ,

No u lol

pyre ,

i love that you eventually devolved into a bot

ArcaneSlime ,

Beep boop yo momma

pyre ,

good bot

ArcaneSlime ,

Told you don’t have time for bullshit, out touching grass

pyre ,

it’s clear you’ve never really been out

ArcaneSlime ,

Was last night, and it wasn’t even with your mom, surprisingly enough. Now shitting at work, why don’t you get yourself a life and stop with the permanently online schtick?

pyre ,

you’re trying so hard it’s embarrassing

ArcaneSlime ,

No u

pyre ,

good bot

ArcaneSlime ,

No u

pyre ,

bad bot

ArcaneSlime ,

No u

pyre ,

k bb

laurelraven ,

That looks like a conference room PC, I would doubt OP even has any control over that and possibly didn’t even have access to the room until right before

It isn’t their computer.

It’s likely on a campus domain managed by campus IT and should be configured with a sane update policy that automatically does this overnight when the systems aren’t being used.

littletranspunk ,

I’d rather work with my PC than around my PC.

It’s why I much prefer Linux

Katana314 ,

Much as I always feel Microsoft has made some horrible missteps around automatic updates…I also think many many users are vocally and unabashedly following horrible update policies.

The biggest one is “Fuck you, Microsoft, I don’t ever want to update.” A simple truth about Windows is that it is currently the most popular operating system in the world. If that OS was Unix-based, the resulting truth would still be true: The most popular OS is going to be the most common target for vulnerabilities, hacks, malware, and exploits. Far more than an antivirus, keeping that computer up to date is the most important step for keeping it secure.

This is true not just of computers used to manage your bank account and nuclear launch codes, but of the swarm of “convenience” computers sitting inside a campus network that could spread a virus to everything on the Wi-Fi.

So, looking at this image, it’s a shame on Microsoft moment if this update came from nowhere, or they once again blatantly ignored the configured update time. It’s a shame on the campus moment if someone was repeatedly closing the “Time to update” popup.

areyouevenreal ,

Other systems like ChromeOS and Silverblue do atomic updates in the background and then switch on next restart. No waiting at screens like this. Heck even the conventional Linux update system, while far from foolproof, doesn’t require waiting like this.

gmtom ,
  1. So does windows for the most part
  2. Do you know how often users actually restart their machines without being forced?
areyouevenreal ,

Fairly often if it wasn’t for the whole fast startup thing, which isn’t present in Linux land. I would say at least every couple of weeks, which is good enough for updates.

wer2 ,

Perhaps the solution is to figure out how to update without restarting. It is a hard problem, but a forced restart is the same as a crash from a user perspective.

megopie ,

Imagine if they replaced the crash screen with a fake automatic update.

IMongoose ,

That’s some oblivion on xbox shit right there. Hide a restart with a loading screen.

dan ,
@dan@upvote.au avatar

Years ago there was a screensaver that showed a fake “upgrading to Vista, please wait” screen. Just wait for someone to leave their computer unattended, download and set it as the screensaver, and wait for their reaction when they’re back :)

bleistift2 ,

Do you know how often users actually restart their machines without being forced?

If Windows would actually shut the fuck down when asked to do so, this wouldn’t be a problem.

IMongoose ,

I complained enough at my work about this that we shut off fast boot domain wide. I haven’t had to have a “I know that you just turned your computer on but I need you to restart it. No, not shutdown and turn on, restart. Yes, they are different things.” conversation in a couple years. Funnily enough I haven’t seen anyone complain about the significantly longer start up times. I guess people just expect that from windows lol.

dan ,
@dan@upvote.au avatar

I think people just don’t care about startup times. They do it maybe once per day (if they don’t sleep and resume), and they probably get a coffee or something while it’s starting up.

Inktvip ,

Walk in, press on button, hang up jacket and get stuff out of bag, type in password, grab coffee.

That’s a pretty common morning pattern I see.

areyouevenreal ,

No Windows doesn’t do atomic updates in the background, that’s why there is the whole installing updates screen on reboot or shutdown.

gmtom ,

Yes it does? As far as I’m aware even Linux can’t apply updates to an active system.

areyouevenreal ,

You vastly misunderstand both what I am talking about, and how updates work on both Windows and Linux.

You don’t press shut down and then get a blue updating screen that stops you from doing anything on Linux. Go and update a Linux system and you will see what I am talking about. You run it just like a normal command or program.

Also yes they update the files on the drive while the system is running.

kuberoot ,

In addition to what was said by somebody else about atomic updates, even a simple update via package manager on a regular distro will do all the work up front, and not take extra time on next boot. Before you reboot, most things will continue working fine - and most of the remaining things that might not can be worked around.

phoneymouse ,

The issue is some updates don’t contain just security fixes, but rather privacy invading features and advertising that make the OS shittier.

Katana314 ,

Oh, no argument from me on that. And it’s horrible that Microsoft is starting to make people choose between having a secure system and avoiding their adware bullshit.

josephsh5 ,

“FUCK MICROSOFT!”

Moshpirit ,
@Moshpirit@lemmy.world avatar

Oh, so you know OP’s thesis name too!

josephsh5 ,

No, I was referencing a scene from the show “Space Force” where the exact same thing occurs.

moon ,

the thesis was on why you should move to Linux

Ibuthyr ,

I don’t get it. I never had my PC randomly updating itself without my consent. I simply keep my OS updated like everyone should. I do this by installing the update once I get notified (I simply update when I shut the thing down). Why is everyone so weird about this? Or is this a home edition problem? Don’t use home edition.

calcopiritus ,

I use home edition and never had this problem. EU windows is much better though, maybe this is a USA windows thing.

uis ,

Right. It’s easy to forget that M$ has two versions of шindows

TachyonTele ,

Nah, you can delay an update for a long time. Idk what OP is doing to cause this.

chiliedogg ,

I’ve had way too many Windows updates fuck my shit up, so I wait as long as possible to update so they have a chance to fix what they broke by the time it gets rolled out to my machine.

Ibuthyr ,

I’ve never really had any major fuck ups with windows updates. This is something I also don’t get. I’m not an MS advocate or anything, I completely support people who use Linux because screw evil giant corporations. But most arguments here are completely emotionally driven.

K4mpfie ,

Tbf I do this too but sometimes Windows will shut down after an update and next time I start it it will “configure my PC”, restart once more and then show me the login screen. Doesn’t even take 5 tho. The worst thing however is when I start my laptop and login, just for Windows to decide it’s updating rn. However this is usually happening at work so I suspect that the update server on the domain pushes an urgent security update that can only happen once a user logged in. Still super annoying but doesn’t take more than 5 minutes.

Ibuthyr ,

Ok, this I can relate to. I often sat down at my desk the next morning just to see that the PC is running. Electricity is kinda expensive where I’m from, so this pisses me off.

woelkchen ,
@woelkchen@lemmy.world avatar

No, not any longer. In Windows 11 “update and shutdown” includes a reboot in-between and then shuts off. The only way you get this these days is to “update and reboot” and manually shutting off the computer during BIOS initialization.

K4mpfie ,

Yeah I’m still on Windows 10

z00s ,

This might take several minutes

…or itcould take several hours

Ibaudia ,
@Ibaudia@lemmy.world avatar

It says “several” but I think it means “many”, important distinction to make there Microsoft.

Agent641 ,

“If you play your cards right and allow recall ;)”

EmperorHenry ,
@EmperorHenry@discuss.tchncs.de avatar

or itcould take several hours

only if you have a shitty computer full of garbage. My windows updates only take 2 minutes or less. even feature updates only take about 4 minutes to reboot.

Windows is only shitty if you don’t know how to use it. Just because you know what the buttons do doesn’t mean you know how to use it.

Hugh_Jeggs ,

or it could take several hours

Would give you enough time to get your mouse drivers working on Linux then

lemmyvore ,

What’s mouse drivers, precious?

Hugh_Jeggs ,

They have tiny tiny cars sweetheart

ichbinjasokreativ ,

Trigger warning! Updating my linux systems takes 15 seconds ;)

menemen ,
@menemen@lemmy.world avatar

And you can postpone it to whenever you want, also post thesis defence.

lemmyvore ,

You have to cut Microsoft some slack on mandatory updates. They’re still traumatized from the XP era when they were the platform of choice for botnets and “Windows security” was a laughing stock.

trxxruraxvr ,

Tbh, if Linux had the same user base as windows had back then a large amount of people would postpone any update indefinitely and we’d be in the same shit.

lemmyvore ,

Yeah it’s a different game when your user base is tech savvy and self-selecting. When you have to deal with a billion non-technical people you have to be a lot more protective.

But even so Linux seems miles ahead. It’s Microsoft who should be the most motivated to add things like AppArmor, Flatpak, immutable system, curated app repos, executable as a filesystem attribute etc. They’re doing none of that, they plateaued at UAC and bundling their own antivirus.

AnyOldName3 ,
@AnyOldName3@lemmy.world avatar

They tried. UWP and the Windows Store did loads to boost security and make the source of apps verifiable, but people hated it and barely used it, so the holes they were supposed to patch stayed open. The store itself did have the problem that part of its raison d’être was to try and take a cut of the sales of all software for Windows, like Apple do for iOS, and UWP made certain things a pain or impossible (sometimes because they were inherently insecure), but UWP wasn’t tied to the store and did improve even though it’s barely used.

dan ,
@dan@upvote.au avatar

executable as a filesystem attribute

This already exists. It’s labeled as “Traverse folder / execute file” in the UI.

NTFS permissions are also more powerful than the default Linux permission system. Instead of just being able to define permissions for a single user and single group, you can define them for an arbitrary number of users and groups.

I say “default Linux permission system” because you can actually use ACLs on Linux (getfacl and setfacl commands), they’re just not used by default. They used to be common in businesses and schools, but these days everyone seems to store their files “in the cloud” and the permissions are managed there instead.

curated app repos

This is what the Windows store is supposed to be. There’s also WinGet, but I’m not sure if it’s curated.

the_doktor ,

NTFS permissions are just needlessly complicated and convoluted and create more problems than they solve for desktop use. They’re more for server use, but then again, so are ACLs on Linux. If Windows would just use simple permissions like Linux does, it’d be a hell of a lot better.

The Windows store is also a sandboxed, heavily restricted pile of trash you can’t even get at for most of its apps. And Winget has so many issues from its install scripts not working right to just being outright broken that it’s not worth using. Even flatpak installs can be easily modified and used normally.

The excuses for using obsolete Windows continues by its paid shills and brainwashed users. Give it up.

dan ,
@dan@upvote.au avatar

The Windows store is also a sandboxed, heavily restricted pile of trash you can’t even get at for most of its apps.

They changed that around the tine Windows 11 was released. Regular Win32 apps can be listed in there.

NTFS permissions are just needlessly complicated and convoluted and create more problems than they solve for desktop use.

What’s an example of a problem they create?

If Windows would just use simple permissions like Linux does

I don’t think using an antiquated permission system from the 1970s is the solution to anything. Being able to set permissions for only a single user and single group is very limiting, especially when there’s background processes that run as other users. There’s a reason later revisions of POSIX added ACLs.

The excuses for using obsolete Windows continues by its paid shills and brainwashed users.

lol I’m not a paid shill nor a brainwashed user; I just see pros and cons for all operating systems. Linux-based OSes do some things better, and Windows-based OSes do other things better. Even MacOS has its pros.

the_doktor ,

antiquated permission system from the 1970s

Sorry, but it just works and is much simpler, direct, and useful for desktop systems than the rat’s nest that is NTFS permissions that was created for big business use with several groups of people with different access needs even among the groups instead of just simple, effective permissions that works with desktops and regular servers.

Supporting Microsoft and Windows now is just an admission that you have ignored all of the bad decisions, laughable security, bad engineering, and marketing over technology trash Microsoft has delivered since day one. It’s time to abandon Windows and use a real OS. There is no longer a “pro” for Windows now that they’re trying to screw over their users from every single direction.

InternetCitizen2 OP ,

True

Mio ,

It depends how out of date you are.

ichbinjasokreativ ,

Absolutely, but unless you’re on a rolling release, it still won’t be that long. For example, my homelab ubuntu server didn’t get updated for over a month, but when I finally did run updates it finished after no more than a minute. Depends a bit on hardware and network speed though.

lemmyvore ,

It shouldn’t be an issue even on a rolling release. I mean it’s not like it installs every intermediary version of every package, it just jumps to the latest versions no? At least that’s how I imagine it works.

ichbinjasokreativ ,

Right, but my tumbleweed install gets 100+ package updates per week, whereas ubuntu gets like 20

Mio ,

Yes. The question comes down to how many of these you need. And do you have the resources for it?

ichbinjasokreativ ,

My Computers are all reasonably modern and decetly spec’d, resources should not be an issue. Ubuntu also ships with a lot more pre-installed packages than tumbleweed does, but I get your point.

Hawk ,

How does that “garbage” affect update time?

EmperorHenry ,
@EmperorHenry@discuss.tchncs.de avatar

if your computer is full of crap it will be slow.

Hawk ,

Not necessarily true

z00s ,

Troll successful lol

the_doktor ,

Bullshit, paid Windows shill. Even a brand new, high end PC on a fast internet with a fresh (non-OEM full of crap) install of Windows takes LITERALLY SEVERAL HOURS to fully update and often even minor updates will take at least an hour depending on what’s being updated.

Don’t give me that shit. You know it’s a lie. Windows is trash.

cordlesslamp ,

Then failed half way through, and needed another hour to “reverse changes”.

HStone32 ,

The longer I use Linux, the harder it becomes to see where windows users are coming from. Its gotten to the point where seeing people use windows in public feels incomprehensible to me, like watching people go to work on a pogo stick instead of a car.

Psythik , (edited )

Three words: High Dynamic Range.

HDR is a tacked on feature in KDE that barely works. In Windows 11, it’s a set and forget thing. SDR gets mapped to HDR space, so you don’t have to constantly toggle it on and off when switching between content, like you have to do in other OSes. You can even upgrade SDR videos and games to true HDR, even if they don’t have native support. It legit makes content look more realistic.

And if you have a newer GPU, there’s also AI upscaling, which is great for watching HD and SD content on a 4K display. Pretty sure you can’t do that* at all in Linux, at least not in real-time.

But if you have an SDR monitor and/or an older GPU, none of this matters to you. Which in that case, there’s no reason for you to use Windows ever. But if your gear is newer, Linux is too outdated for you.

I’ll check back in 5 years. Maybe 2029 will finally be the year I ditch Microsoft products for good.

absentbird ,
@absentbird@lemm.ee avatar

It’s expected for HDR to mature on Linux later this year. I’ll send you an update in December.

woelkchen ,
@woelkchen@lemmy.world avatar

It’s expected for HDR to mature on Linux later this year.

HDR works on Steam Deck right now. It may take a while until it trickles down to distributions other than SteamOS and not every compositor may support it equally but in general support is there.

uis ,

until it trickles down to distributions

Ancap spotted. Most distros don’t use Gamescope. Although if HDR support is in KWin, then you can just go and install KDE on rolling release distro.

woelkchen , (edited )
@woelkchen@lemmy.world avatar

Most distros don’t use Gamescope.

Well, that’s the problem of the person making a general statement about all of Linux and not going into specifics.

BlushedPotatoPlayers ,

These are nice, but on the other hand there’s the case where you have a limited time slot somewhere and windows randomly decides that it’s time to update, pop up a window to upload your data to “the cloud”, reboot, and bang, you’re f*cked.

the_doktor ,

HDR is just a scam. It’s essentially automated brightness and contrast controls that is terribly done. I’ve seen HDR on brand new displays running HDR-capable everything and it just looks like someone can’t figure out how to set their monitor up correctly. It’s a buzzword created for crap technology that makes people want to spend more on essentially the same trash.

And as for scaling, look up FSR.

Windows is 100% obsolete and anyone who disagrees is just looking for excuses.

uis ,

It’s essentially automated brightness and contrast controls that is terribly done

Brightness? True. Contrast controls? It seems you are confusing software HDR, which compresses HDR to SDR, and hardware HDR.

Hardware HDR is fancy word to say burning you eyes harder.

When you represent image as 3d vector field of brightnesses, it IS brightness control terribly done, but our eyes don’t care.

the_doktor ,

The point is it’s just poorly done automated adjustment of what should be done manually on your monitor, and it’s a laughable overpriced scam meant to take money out of the pockets of people who fall for tech buzzwords.

woelkchen ,
@woelkchen@lemmy.world avatar

Three words: High Dynamic Range.

Works fine on Steam Deck. (The comment you’re replied to is about Linux, not a specific DE, so your experience with a specific DE doesn’t really count as counter argument about Linux in general.)

And if you have a newer GPU, there’s also AI upscaling, which is great for watching HD and SD content on a 4K display. Pretty sure you can’t do they at all in Linux, at least not in real-time.

That is wrong.

uis ,

You can even upgrade SDR videos and games to true HDR, even if they don’t have native support. It legit makes content look more realistic.

You are just applying filters. They look good, but they are incorrect.

onlinepersona ,

I am utterly perplexed by the HDR talk, honestly. Why does it even matter? I’ve been consuming media on Linux for more than a decade and it looks perfect to me.

When people talk about making it look even better, I literally can’t imagine what they’re talking about. I mean, when people had black n white TV, they could imagine color. When I had a CRT and 3D games, it was easy to imagine better quality, but going from 1080p to 4k already does nothing. HDR just seems like marketing bullshit that people wouldn’t be able to discern, unless flicking between normal and HDR or having them side by side.

Anti Commercial-AI license

archchan ,

I’ve gone off the FOSS deep end so it doesn’t stop when I see Windows used in the wild.

The longer I’m here, the more I recoil at the sight of people using products from Google so casually and thoughtlessly.

I’ll feel visceral disgust when I see the soulless, dystopian corporate logos of Xitter, Instagram, TikTok, YouTube, etc that wormed their way into a universal presence on social footers of websites or promotional emails or search engines… and everyone’s locked down devices, sucking up troves of data to map who you are, were, and will be. Even McFuckingDonalds has a clause in a policy saying they’ll measure your intelligence.

The greater the intersect between emotions felt while enjoying a cautionary fictional cyberpunk tale and those felt while experiencing reality… well, anyway you get the idea.

Tldr I need a hug from a penguin or cocaine from a bear or something holy shit

You, reader, go. Hug a penguin. Spread love to the world. Believe in the change you want to see. Be good to each other. And don’t let anyone or anything take who you are, were, or can be away from you, be it a corp, a government, or a bad day.

Have a good day

FatCat ,
@FatCat@lemmy.world avatar

These comments are copy pasta perfection. Best part they are unironic 🤣😍

archchan ,

Hahaha thanks. I like being extra and colorful like this. It’s a good release in more ways than one

bitwaba ,

I feel the same way, but I feel it with lots of other topics in my life as well.

I daily drive Linux for both home and work. Windows is absolutely shit, yes, but when you’re using Linux as your primary system, the only interaction you have with Windows is through other people. And that interaction is only when people’s experience with Windows is noteworthy enough for them to mention anything about it. Its selection bias.

A similar thing happened with me when I visited home after having been gone for 2 years. I moved from the US to the UK over a decade ago. I’d go back every 6-12 months, but because of COVID it was over 2 years. It was during the vaccine rollouts too, and I was expecting this warzone anti mask/antivax everywhere. I saw a few people (like, over 3 weeks I saw less than a dozen) with signs protesting at intersections. And I saw one guy have an argument with his wife in the parking lot which she just eventually told him to stay in the the car if he wasn’t going to wear a mask while she went to the grocery store. Thats pretty much the opposite of what I expected based on the images I got for the previous 2 years through overseas media. You only get the lowlights.

BCat70 ,

Hell it looks ro me like they are driving a Flintstonemobile, where every time they stop using thier feet a boxing glove punches them in the face.

uis ,

like watching people go to work on a pogo stick instead of a car.

At least going to work on a pogo stick makes more sense in urban area. You can’t bring car into subway. Windows on the other hand…

Timecircleline ,

How did it go?!

InternetCitizen2 OP ,

I didn’t defend, but it went well

Timecircleline ,

Well congratulations to the newly minted Dr!

PineRune ,

Every day, my work computers force a shutdown-update, take 20 minites, fail the update, recover from the failed update, and then force a 24-hour timer to do it again that I can’t turn off. IT doesn’t care.

lickmygiggle ,

If it’s happening every 24 hours it sounds like they’re the ones that set the policy.

Mikina ,

My favorite windows update was when I was attending an onsite coding competition hosted my Microsoft. We were all in this large meeting hall that looked like a theater, and we spent first 10 minutes or so at the start of the competition just looking at Windows update, with the Microsoft rep apologizing to us, because his pc decided to do the “Forced update restart you cant postpone any more” literally two minutes into the presentation

caseyweederman ,

When your dog food tastes like dog food

BigDiction ,

As a presenter would be mortified.

As an attendee, hilarious.

ReveredOxygen ,
@ReveredOxygen@sh.itjust.works avatar

As an attendee, would be somewhat annoyed

As someone on the Internet, hilarious

dan ,
@dan@upvote.au avatar

That’s probably the presenter’s fault for not updating it earlier. Keep on top of your updates so they don’t force you to do it at an unfortunate time.

EvilEyedPanda ,

Today’s thesis is an improv on why windows sucks.

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