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nednobbins , (edited )

I’ve been called many names, including “tankie”, so I’ll take a stab at responding.

I’m not mad about the debate at all. I expected something fairly similar. I’m mad that Biden and the Democratic leadership seems to have put their own interests above the interest of the party people (edit: Ugh. Terrible typo).

If Biden had gracefully stepped aside and given just about any other Democrat his full support, we’d be in a much better position now. Instead we have a candidate with a ton of baggage and who presents an easy target for Trump’s style of argument. Many mainstream Democrats, including the NYT, are finally starting to realize this. Unfortunately it’s probably a year too late. At this point it would just make it look like Demoratic kingmakers forced him out.

If I went by the modern definition of “tankie” as, an anti-american authoritarian communist. I probably wouldn’t be mad at any of this. I’d be cackling with glee because either of the current nominees will be terrible for the US. Neither of them has a serious long term plan. Neither of them can articulate a policy position. Both of them will continue to erode the power and moral authority of the United States.

Like it or not. Trump is likely to be the next president projects.fivethirtyeight.com/polls/. At this point it’s probably wise to start thinking about how to limit his impact and how to start cleaning up the mess afterwards.

DragonTypeWyvern , (edited )

Step 1: Flee the country

Step 2: Laugh at all the idiots getting what they deserve

Step 3: Get nuked anyways

pivot_root ,

I’m mad that Biden and the Democratic leadership seems to have put their own interests above the interest of the party people.

The interests of the party is the interests of the rich :)

nednobbins ,

It was a typo. I meant to say that the Democratic leadership seems to have put their and their parties interests above those of the people but I wanted to avoid editing my post too much.

lugal ,

I will never vote Democrats!

Since I do not intend to move to the US but I vote the lesser of several evils here in Europe

ShitOnABrick , (edited )
@ShitOnABrick@lemmy.world avatar

💤💤💤💤💤💤 nememene 💤💤💤💤💤💤 nememene 💤💤💤💤💤💤 🥱😌 a uh I uh a hmm? I skibdi with um hairy legs turn blonde… COVID dealing with uh… everything hmmm… we had to uh deal with uh… OOOooorereaaaa if we finally beat Medicare… Finally beat Medicare

https://lemmy.world/pictrs/image/d3532c01-088c-4596-bdde-af7ae2887964.png

UraniumBlazer ,

“Old man bad. His alternative not worse.”

Are u a secret Republican or something?

ShitOnABrick ,
@ShitOnABrick@lemmy.world avatar

no old man funny

https://lemmy.world/pictrs/image/8fe4f054-6518-4e7d-8046-885628ff50a6.png

manuallybreathing ,

No ones mad at you for voting you dweeb, some people just wont vote for him, the debate changed nothing.

I’m a tAnKiE and I dont even get a vote, pretend youre voting for me, have at it.

PopOfAfrica ,

Tankies? CNN, MSNBC, and NYTimes are all concerned.

Maggoty ,

WAPO too.

PopOfAfrica ,

Clearly this is a far-right conspiracy and they have all taken over the media.

/s

Maggoty ,

Legendary Tankies, the entire group… /s

Grayox ,
@Grayox@lemmy.ml avatar

I am a tankie and voting for Biden lmao. The Prolitariat must be protected till enough class conciousness is achieved for Socialism to succeed.

UraniumBlazer ,

THANK YOU. It’s that fkin simple.

Passerby6497 ,

So simple, yet so hard for so many to understand.

vaultdweller013 ,

Most folks are dumber than a chickens.

Feathercrown ,

Based and practicalpilled

null ,

Most based .ml user

goldenlocks ,

The Prolitariat must be protected

By consenting to corruption and a path to WWIII. That is not protecting them, in fact it is ensuring them a terrible future. If you cared about them, you would vote, volunteer, donate, and support the PSL, CPUSA, or Green party instead.

AVincentInSpace , (edited )

None of those parties have a ghost of a chance of winning, and with as razor thin as the win margins were in 2016 and 2020, I’m not confident Biden will win if we don’t vote for him. I sincerely hope I do not have to explain why Trump would be worse on literally every issue (especially Gaza) than Biden is.

goldenlocks ,

Then do something about it instead of complain. I am, what are you doing? You vote for corruption.

DragonTypeWyvern ,

Bro’s protest voting when the Weimar American Republic has Nazis on the ballot and thinks building “grassroots support” for the twentieth year in a row justifies it when the world is about to run out of time anyways

You want Green candidates? Tell them to run as Democrats or make a fucking militia.

goldenlocks ,

Dems are actually fascists, and you are as well for not only voting for them, but gathering support for them online when you could be doing that for a decent party.

MindTraveller ,

🤡

goldenlocks ,

Imagine watching that debate and saying someone is a clown for not voting for them.

pivot_root ,

The Democrat party is just as corrupt and bought out by corporations as the Republicans are, but at least they aren’t trying to get the country to circle the drain as quickly.

goldenlocks ,

The past 4 years prove you wrong on that.

AVincentInSpace ,

Did they? We got back in the Paris climate accords, gay marriage got codified into an actual law, student loan forgiveness started rolling out, clamping down on junk fees and overdraft fees…

goldenlocks ,

https://www.nbcnews.com/politics/white-house/biden-administration-approves-controversial-alaska-oil-drilling-projec-rcna74679

He lied about student loan forgiveness.

He has us barreling towards WWIII and has destroyed our reputation on a global scale with our support of genocide in Palestine.

AVincentInSpace ,

I got a question for you though. Same one you were asked two replies ago.

Do you think that the Republicans are better?

goldenlocks ,

I think the Green party is better, that’s why I vote for it. Google “democracy” and find out why!

AVincentInSpace ,

Let me put it this way.

Right now, no one knows your chosen third-party candidate exists. Let’s suppose you, personally, set out to change that. Let’s suppose you’re the best campaign manager ever, and that you and your friends lead the best grassroots campaign in history, so much so that come November you’ve convinced everyone who would have voted third party and two-thirds of the people who would have voted for Biden to vote for your candidate instead.

Let’s suppose that, had you done nothing, the vote breakdown will be the same in 2024 as it was in 2020. Biden got 51.3% of the popular vote, Trump got 46.8%, and that leaves just under 2% who voted third party. In 2024, thanks to your heroic efforts, the green party candidate gets 36.2% of the vote and Biden gets 17.1%, but oh no – Trump wins by a landslide because Trump supporters, who care not for your left-of-center politics, stuck by their guy and gave him 46% of the vote again, and in first-past-the-post voting, that’s all that matters! Your heroic efforts to get your message out about your better candidate only resulted in splitting the vote and ensuring Trump would win!

goldenlocks ,

In 2024, thanks to your heroic efforts, the green party candidate gets 36.2% of the vote and Biden gets 17.1%, but oh no – Trump wins by a landslide because Trump supporters, who care not for your left-of-center politics, stuck by their guy and gave him 46% of the vote again, and in first-past-the-post voting, that’s all that matters! Your heroic efforts to get your message out about your better candidate only resulted in splitting the vote and ensuring Trump would win!

This would be the greatest accomplishment for the working class in American history if it happened. The Greens would then start to win congressional seats, and being the process of taking over the government like the Morena party just did in Mexico.

AVincentInSpace , (edited )

It’s also completely impossible. A campaign that could convince two thirds of Biden voters to switch would shatter every record for a grassroots campaign (heck, even a corporate backed campaign) that had ever been set, by orders of magnitude. You are not going to convince a statistically significant number of people to switch their vote, especially not between now and November.

I also feel like you’re missing the part where even if you DID accomplish that, Trump would still win the presidency! If you vote third party you might as well not vote!

Especially given how slim the win margins were in 2020 and 2016, I’m not convinced that Biden will win if we don’t all vote for him. I hate the DNC as much as anyone else does, but if you don’t want a person who openly plans to abuse his Presidential powers to punish his opponents for daring to prosecute him for a crime he committed, you only have one choice.

goldenlocks ,

It’s also completely impossible. A campaign that could convince two thirds of Biden voters to switch would shatter every record for a grassroots campaign (heck, even a corporate backed campaign) that had ever been set, by orders of magnitude. You are not going to convince a statistically significant number of people to switch their vote, especially not between now and November.

You’re the one that made this ridiculous argument in the first place. I am expressing democracy by supporting and growing the party I agree with the most.

AVincentInSpace ,

I came up with a ridiculous, hyperbolic example that would still result in a victory for Trump to demonstrate that no amount of effort from third party voters would sway the election, even if they could all agree on who the best third party candidate was. Apparently hardcore leftists are so dense you thought I was saying it could actually happen.

But thank you for your honesty. Please, support your third party candidate. I’d love to see them grow, truly. But I sincerely hope you don’t think they actually have a chance, not while the people who operate the DNC are breathing.

goldenlocks ,

You’re the reason Trump is winning, because you refused to criticize Biden and the Dems, and not grow another party as an option.

AVincentInSpace , (edited )

I do criticize Biden. I have also written three paragraphs in this thread already about why a third party winning the presidency is impossible, and thus voting for Biden is necessary to prevent Trump taking office. Good to see leftists are just as incapable of defending their positions as always.

Voting third party is great at the local level. Voting third party at the national level when they don’t already have a hold anywhere else does not even grow the party. It just wastes your vote.

I do tire of conversing with trolls.

goldenlocks ,

No, you don’t you are openly trying to gather support for his geriatric ass.

Voting third party is the only reasonable option.

AVincentInSpace ,

Goodbye, troll.

DragonTypeWyvern , (edited )

Yes, yes, we all know what happens when you scratch a liberal but it’s better than not having to scratch to find it. Even if all that’s holding the powers that be back is a skin-deep veneer of civility and deniability a vote to strip that veneer away makes you a fool, not a revolutionary.

goldenlocks ,

it’s better than not having to scratch to find it.

There’s no need to scratch. They openly support the genocide of children.

The real fool is the one that puts no effort into change.

AVincentInSpace ,

This is something I would say as a joke to make fun of a strawman version of you

goldenlocks ,

Joe’s crime bill is absolutely fascist.

Nelots ,

Nobody likes voting for the lesser of two evils, but we all have to if we want to stop an even further decline into hell. Our system is broken, and we don’t have any way of fixing it immediately, so we have to work with what we can. Trump as president will have immediate and direct consequences for many people, and it will be the fault of people like you that it happened. At this point, not voting for Biden is the same thing as voting for Trump. You may continue virtue signaling after we get through the crisis right in front of us.

goldenlocks ,

You’re not voting for the lesser of two evils, you are voting for corruption and evil while doing absolutely nothing about it.

pivot_root ,

The system is set up in a way that the only viable options are between two evils, unfortunately. Under a FPTP system where the only good options are minority parties that won’t win a single seat in their districts, you’re left with the choice of voting for the lesser evil, or voting for your morals but increasing the risk of the greater evil winning.

It’s a no-win situation.

goldenlocks ,

No, you can vote for whoever you want. You all on here are too lazy to gather support for another party.

gladflag ,

You’re voting for no one, giving more of a chance for the greater of two evils and still doing nothing. Where your fucking guillotine?

goldenlocks ,

I’m voting for Jill Stein. And I got one out back.

assassin_aragorn ,

Lmao the green party isn’t going to do jack shit. They’re completely unserious about politics. They aren’t even trying to build up an infrastructure in all 50 states that lets them get suffused into local and state politics. They aren’t even aiming for Congressional seats, which would be necessary for an actual Green president to get anything done.

They’re just anti science grifters who think wifi causes cancer, entertain vaccine skepticism, and demonize nuclear energy – the latter of which could be a major asset to stopping global warming. Newer designs are even able to consume nuclear waste, meaning an anti nuclear position results in more waste than we would otherwise.

goldenlocks ,

Then support the PSL. I work with the Green party to improve it, because that’s how democracy works. It’s okay you don’t understand that.

assassin_aragorn ,

I’m afraid all of us don’t have that much free time. But hey, if you can get them to stop being anti science and actually become a serious party, I’ll consider them.

Just don’t expect me to accept the Green Party’s many imperfections. If you don’t accept the Democrat’s imperfections, then you should perfectly understand.

goldenlocks ,

Send them an email and discuss your issues. They are the only voice in politics that supports the science of climate change.

Democrats don’t have imperfections, they are fundamentally flawed because they are corrupt.

assassin_aragorn ,

Until Stein vehemently recants her remarks about WiFi causing cancer, vaccine skepticism, and nuclear fear mongering – or the Green party completely disavows her and those remarks – it would be a total waste of time.

It isn’t my job as an engineer to tell “the only voice in politics that supports the science of climate change” to stop endorsing completely anti science positions. Nor is it on me to try and correct a willfully anti science party. They need to show good faith, and they’ve done nothing whatsoever to suggest any of that to me.

goldenlocks ,

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j2suVx9cDKw She is the one with a medical degree, so you don’t have any authority over her opinion, sounds reasonable for her to make her stance out of concern, even if she is wrong.

I’m also an engineer, and that’s why I use my knowledge to try to influence the party.

HawlSera , (edited )

I actually had my local Socialist Party USA chapter kick me out, ban me from their facebook, and publicly announce that I’m a rape apologist because I wouldn’t tell people to support an openly transphobic “Vaccines Cause Autism” Green Party candidate over Joe Biden.

TrickDacy ,

Thank you for being a sane human 🙏

assassin_aragorn ,

You get it! We can’t fuck over vulnerable people. We can’t abandon minorities and LGBT people. Even if we let things get worse to the point of a societal collapse, a lot of people will die because of it – and societal collapse has not historically led to better societies down the road.

tacosanonymous ,

I can’t even imagine how awful the people who fill that vacuum would be.

goldenlocks ,

We can’t fuck over vulnerable people.

That’s what you’re doing when voting for Dems.

Holyginz ,

Go educate yourself, and then you can join the adult discussions.

goldenlocks ,

Oh the irony.

Holyginz ,

Agreed, hopefully someday you understand it.

goldenlocks ,

Right, you should educate yourself.

HawlSera ,

Yes, I see how you’re protecting me when you elect the party that would arrest me for being a “Public Danger” because of the fact that I’m trans.

goldenlocks ,

If you would get off your ass and gather support for a decent party this wouldn’t be a problem.

HawlSera ,

Last I tried my Socialist Party USA chapter belittled me, called me a rape apologist, and refused to do anything for the local community outside of shaming people for wanting to vote out Trump by any means possible.

goldenlocks ,

That sucks, i bet there’s a more accepting party in your area for you. Try PSL or Green party

assassin_aragorn ,

“Your lack of support for Democrats may end up empowering people who will throw me in jail just for who I am”

“Stop being lazy and go improve a better party”

You’re entitled to your opinion dude, but you were a major dick here.

goldenlocks ,

Your lack of support for Democrats may end up empowering people who will throw me in jail just for who I am

Your support of Dems is what prevents a real opposition to fascism.

You’re entitled to your opinion dude, but you were a major dick here.

Truth hurts, don’t care.

assassin_aragorn ,

Here’s a brutal truth for you then. Being a raging, unapologetic jerk won’t progress your political goals. It’ll only make them harder to achieve.

Also, you’re a fucking asshole.

goldenlocks ,

Here’s a brutal truth for you then. Being a raging, unapologetic jerk won’t progress your political goals. It’ll only make them harder to achieve.

My goal isn’t to convince you, only show how you are wrong so people looking at this post will be influenced by it. Looking at your profile, you are too far gone.

No, you are an asshole.

drunkpostdisaster ,

What vulnerable people are dems going after?

Jentu ,

If you don’t know the answer to this already, I suppose the backlash against Biden from progressives might seem like bots or foreign propaganda.

drunkpostdisaster ,

I am starting to think so too.

goldenlocks ,

Nope. I just understand democracy.

Jentu ,

I feel like this reply is for someone else? We’re both coming from a leftist position. Democrats only think they’re being overrun with bots and propaganda because they aren’t actually politically informed enough to know the valid reasons why people don’t like them.

goldenlocks ,

You’re right, misread

goldenlocks ,

The poor is the most clear. Also black people, just look at our prisons, and the crime bill Joe Biden wrote

drunkpostdisaster ,

Show me. Tell me how the party of Obama and Harris are going after them.

goldenlocks ,

https://www.usnews.com/news/best-states/articles/2021-10-13/report-highlights-staggering-racial-disparities-in-us-incarceration-rates

drunkpostdisaster ,

That’s just prison stats. Nothing about what democrats are doing to make it worse

Jentu ,

You should research cop cities. Atlanta democrats voted to fund theirs.

drunkpostdisaster ,

Proof?

Jentu ,

Here’s the press release from Atlanta.

And if you want to read an article about it, here’s one from Time

drunkpostdisaster ,

Okay, but notice how many democrats oppose it? Every single republican is in support of those cities

Jentu ,

Yes, yes. we all know republicans are worse. But democrats could’ve entirely prevented this, which they didn’t. They enabled it. Being better than republicans doesn’t mean the situation is better with democrats. In fact, it’s getting so much worse every single year.

drunkpostdisaster ,

I agree. But it’s the situation we are in.

Jentu ,

And the situation we’re in will continue to get worse as long as long as we’re playing the hand that’s been dealt to us instead of taking an active roll in improving things around us.

SeducingCamel ,

Don’t forget how Biden is being harder on immigration than Trump was but don’t worry Biden is totally for minorities

BreadstickNinja ,

My trans friends are what keeps me committed to voting Biden no matter how disappointed I am in him. Things are already really scary for them right now and I can’t be complicit in making them worse, even through inaction.

HawlSera ,

Consider me another one of your trans friends. If Trump gets elected I’m probably gonna die in a concentration camp. Don’t do that to me, don’t do that to them. I’m begging you for my life.

MewtwoLikesMemes ,
@MewtwoLikesMemes@lemmy.world avatar

As a transwoman as well, I second this!

Don’t let the fascist win!

bufalo1973 ,
@bufalo1973@lemmy.ml avatar

I’d suggest taking a flight overseas the day after the elections, booked prior to it. If Trump losses, you can use it to celebrate it. If he wins… well, you can ask for asylum on arrival.

HawlSera ,

Can’t afford that…

bufalo1973 ,
@bufalo1973@lemmy.ml avatar

😕

Objection ,

I am trans and not voting for Biden. I refuse to sacrifice Palestinians for my own safety or the safety of my loved ones. All the stuff people say now about them being an acceptable sacrifice or there being nothing they can do about it, that’s what they’ll be saying about us tomorrow. Solidarity between marginalized groups is the only viable strategy for long term survival.

I hate being used as a rhetorical token to make people feel better about selling out another vulnerable group.

drunkpostdisaster ,

If you actually cared you would vote biden. No one capable of it will save the Palestinians. None. At least with biden someone survives.

Objection ,

If our “democracy” has decayed to the point where I’m not able to vote on whether or not we do a genocide, then it is not a democracy and I should not legitimize the sham through participation.

There is no circumstance under which I will support genocide. If that means I die, then I will die. If any of you had a backbone you’d do the same. And if enough people drew that line, they’d have no choice but to listen to us.

drunkpostdisaster ,

Grow up. If you really want to fix our democracy it’s going to take time. Vote for every chance you get. We already have one state with ranked choice voting. If you want a real democracy that is our avenue

Objection ,

Oh, does Biden support ranked choice voting, then?

He doesn’t. I’m not going to support asshole after asshole in the vain hope that maybe out of the kindness of their hearts they’ll eventually give us freedom, which directly opposes their own interests. You’re the one that needs to grow up if you believe that fairy tale.

drunkpostdisaster ,

I don’t know. But more dems then reps do

Objection ,

You know, I used to be a lot more extreme than I am now. When I was younger, I said I wouldn’t vote for anyone unless they were going to reform the system to where I wouldn’t have to vote for a lesser evil anymore, demanding that our rulers give up their power.

Now, all I’m asking is that they stop slaughtering people. They can rule over us in their sham democracy, if they would just stop killing all these people. They won’t even do that. So again, my answer is “Hell no, fuck off.” Biden is my enemy and I will oppose him just as I oppose Trump, regardless of what the odds are. Again, anyone with a spine and a conscience should be doing the same.

drunkpostdisaster ,

And you will lose and thePalestinians will die anyway. If you believe in your cause you would accept the fact that you might not live to see it come to fruition. That’s what dying for a cause is all about.

Want to stop a genocide? Vote for a guy fighting against it happening in Ukraine

Objection ,

Nope. There is no reasoning with me on this, my position is absolute and set in stone. You want my vote, get a better candidate. No other option, period.

They will flinch first. And if they don’t, then we’ll go to hell together. You’re wasting your time with me.

drunkpostdisaster ,

Then you might as well go goose stepping right along side those trumpers

Objection ,

Well, if not voting for Trump counts as supporting him, then rest assured that Biden will have my “support.”

I’m not lifting a finger to help either of them. If Trump wins, it’ll be because the Democrats nominated that senile, genocidal corporate sycophant. It’s their job to win elections, not mine. I’ve heard you people try to shift all blame away from your shitty party and onto the left a thousand times before. You’re wasting your time. As I said, I don’t give a shit. Fix the party, win without me, or lose. Your choice, I’ve made mine.

drunkpostdisaster ,

I hate the dnc too. But I am not a fucking child who thinks the world should revolve around me

And it’s your job to vote. Freedom isn’t free. At least show you tried and send in a blank balllit

Objection ,

I intend to vote for a third party.

I know that you think I’m throwing a childish fit. That’s because, fundamentally, you don’t consider Palestinians to be human beings, just as your kind didn’t see Iraqis or Afghans as human when they were being slaughtered. To you, this is just some random pet issue I’ve taken up to feel good about myself. But it’s not. I have nothing but hatred for Biden and people like him, and I have incredibly good reason for that. “Genocide” isn’t just a word, it’s not something to be casually brushed aside. It must be opposed, everything else be damned. If you genuinely attempted to see the world from their perspective, you would understand.

Someday the democrats will decide that us trans people are too much of a liability and throw us under the bus too, and you’ll rationalize it by placing us in the exact same subhuman category you use whenever they murder a million people in the Middle East. Call me childish all you want, you’re just telling on yourself about how seriously you take their deaths.

drunkpostdisaster ,

So the Ukrainians don’t count?

Objection ,

Oh, yeah, you know what, I’ve already made the decision to accept considerable risk to myself and the people I care about because of my absolute commitment to opposing genocide, but if you just bring up some other random issue, that’s totally gonna change my mind. Wtf I love Biden now.

In any case the best thing to happen for the Ukrainian people is that they stop being drafted and forced into a meat grinder to reclaim territory for a state that doesn’t care about them. But regardless, it doesn’t matter. I’m not going to support a genocide to stop anything! I don’t know how I can possibly make that position more clear to you.

Stop wasting your time with me and go waste your time trying to get your party to be less shit.

drunkpostdisaster ,

The best thing to happen to Ukrainians is for Russia to be stopped. You say you are against genocide but are unwilling to prevent the one that can be stopped.

If trump wins anything that happens to you you deserve because you brought it on yourself. It’s a pity you are willing to let it happen to everyone else

assassin_aragorn ,

I’m not going to support a genocide to stop anything!

Ironically, not even to stop a genocide. You’d rather two genocides happen than try to at least prevent one.

If the trolley is going to run over people regardless, and you have the option afterwards to prevent it from running over more people, the moral option is not abstaining.

Pro lifers who don’t believe in any exceptions believe abortions are genocide as well, and are willing to accept any and all consequence of total bans. There’s a similarity with your thinking, and it’s one you should seriously examine.

Your opinion is your own, as are your beliefs. Just be aware of their consequences and how others may perceive your morality.

Objection ,

Ironically, not even to stop a genocide.

Yes, that’s correct.

assassin_aragorn ,

What else wouldn’t you do to stop a genocide?

Objection ,

Mostly just I just wouldn’t do more genocide tbh.

drunkpostdisaster ,

Give me some examples of trans hate among democrats.

Objection ,

Fuck off. It’s not relevant and I don’t have to prove shit to you. The democrats support genocide, end of discussion.

drunkpostdisaster ,

That’s what I thought.

Objection ,

Some of us don’t like seeking out stressful news about the government coming after us just to answer a non sequitur from an asshole. Doesn’t mean it’s not out there.

drunkpostdisaster ,

Awww it’s stressful? Fuck you. You think I like reading about this shit? Because I don’t. You say you are willing to die? You won’t even vote.

Objection ,

Piss off, fascist.

drunkpostdisaster ,

OK, child

Objection ,

Got an example right here:

If trump wins anything that happens to you you deserve because you brought it on yourself.

drunkpostdisaster ,

It’s true and you will be bringing it on others.

Objection ,

Oh hey found another one

https://lemmy.ml/pictrs/image/91c092ce-a52e-4e1c-a19b-eea43f9952c4.webp

drunkpostdisaster ,

Okay, biden sucks. But its still better then what the republicans will do to you. Besides its not like the entire DNC is behind him on this.

Objection , (edited )

You: “Give me evidence of this”

Me: “Piss off that evidence is irrelevant”

You: “Ha, I knew you couldn’t provide evidence, this proves I’m right.”

Me: “Ok here’s evidence.”

You: “That evidence is irrelevant”

Good talk.

Btw you’re literally proving my exact point. The Dems have decided to sacrifice us and you’re fine with it and are justifying it using the exact same logic you use to justify supporting the genocide of Palestinians. You’ve proven that my position is the correct one.

Tryptaminev ,

And here we go again. Once someone from a marginalized group exposes the lack of backbone and the insincerity of you, you attack him personally and suggest him to be part of “the enemy”. It is funny in a sad way because this reads exactly like /r/conservative over on reddit, when people challenged the current Trump narrative.

Jentu ,

Or maybe if the average American stood with the marginalized instead of yelling at them to fall in line, we wouldn’t constantly have issues where the marginalized are systemically murdered and imprisoned. The blood isn’t on their hands for having morals and boundaries. It’s on the masses who refuse to give up even an ounce of comfort to lend a hand to the downtrodden. The path the democrats are on is the same path the current republicans have walked before.

Who are you willing to sacrifice for your own comfort? Why is that a valid position? Because the other guy points that same weapon at you instead and it’s scary? How many different groups are you willing to put on that sacrifice list until you just turn into a fascist republican? “Just following orders” is just as cowardly a response as “It was my only choice”.

drunkpostdisaster , (edited )

Comfort? You’re idiot won’t wake up and realize the world is not that simple. You are already accepting yhe genocide of Ukrainians and lbgtq people because your ego won’t accept that change only happens with work and time. You are no different than they are.

Jentu ,

Queer person here: we’ve had to violently fight for our rights and were successful in the past and we will do it again if we need to, so expecting a vote for anything will fix the issues of the marginalized is very out of touch. Doing nothing but voting is 99% political apathy, and it very much feels like all this browbeating is coming from someone who only votes and mayyyyybe donates to the ACLU or planned parenthood once every couple years. Do some real work and stop spending so much of your mental energy on inconsequential (assuming you don’t live in a handful of swing states) things. Build coalitions. Form or join unions. Stand up for what is right and protest what is wrong.

drunkpostdisaster ,

Tell that to the person I am talking to. I am not saying voting is all that matters. But it does matter and in 2024 we only have two options unless you want to throw away your vote on a third party that has zero chance winning.

Jentu ,

So you know what state that person resides? You’ve confirmed they live in a swing state where their vote for president actually matters? (This is not me advocating against voting since local/state positions are important, but if you’re focused on president, only a handful of states really make a difference at all).

drunkpostdisaster ,

I am talking about all elections. My state is voting Trump with out a doubt, but it wont stop me from voting. And who knows? Maybe another epidemic will hit that republicans will ignore and my state might end up blue?

Jentu ,

My state is ruby red and even the fairly large city I live in is red. Begging people to vote specifically for biden in situations like ours only makes people more apathetic since they know Biden has no shot. But if you tell people how to be more politically involved outside of voting, they’ll be more empowered to want to vote just so they can get people more aligned with them in their local and state elections. It’s the state government in red states like ours that will enact awful policies that we will actually feel. Pushing an unpopular president as the main reason to show up to the booth will only make them stay home instead.

Tangential: Covid is still killing a ton of people every month (though it gets better in warmer weather). This past January had over 10k covid deaths that were largely ignored by Biden and pretty much everyone else who are desperate to show how “good” things are now. But also, I’d caution against being hopeful for another pandemic that would wipe out conservatives since it’s tiptoeing on fascism, which you’re trying to be distinctly different to, eh? If a huge portion of Americans are fascist, America will be a fascist nation. I’ve heard conservatives wish that CA would sink into the ocean and that NYC would get swept away from a hurricane and I hope to god we haven’t ratcheted so far that now democrats are wishing and hoping for the deaths of their political enemy.

drunkpostdisaster ,

I didn’t say I want another epidemic to happen. I am pointing out there is still a slim chance we can win. Maybe they will be so sure of victory a bunch will stay home. Maybe one of the candidates will die.

It’s a good habit anyway

Jentu ,

If your chance of winning hinges on your opponent suddenly not being there anymore, that conclusion is kind of anti-democratic in nature. If (for example) someone says “Things will eventually start getting better once all the boomers are gone”, they’ve already decided who their enemy is and that there’s no use trying to have discussions with them about how to fix things. The world around them slowly becomes less about different people with different ideas and it metastasizes into a country where half of their neighbors want them dead and because of that, they’d see half their neighbors dead as well. This doesn’t go away if trump is defeated in November. Civil war will be right around the corner until people start talking to each other again. The militarism of both parties and the fascism of republicans will, over time, be seen as a less necessary weapon against “the enemy” and divisive politics will ease up. That being said, don’t waste your breath on literal armed Nazis/white supremacist groups. They’re an artifact of the fears and stresses of this current system and have decided the best course of action is the most harmful. They will be less of an issue once society at large isn’t gasping for air and don’t have to blame their woes on one particular group.

My point is, we don’t solve the issue of rising fascism within our borders by waiting it out and hoping it all blows away with time, only coming out from your shelter one day out of the whole year to do political action. Embrace democracy if you believe in it and talk to people who disagree with you(preferably in-person) about why you think the things you think and why it should be changed. Show up to town halls, get to know your local government, join local activism groups. If you want things to change for the better, you can’t just keep doing the same thing that got us into this mess.

TokenBoomer ,

I respect this decision. But, I’m selfishly voting for Biden. Trump’s first term stressed me out.

Objection ,

Tbh I’m fine with respectful disagreement.

TokenBoomer ,

Thoughtful, educated and informed voting decisions should be respected. Shame on this duopoly for forcing its electorate to choose between tacit support for a genocide, and outright fascism.

Objection ,

Thank you. I have to vote according to my conscience and what I believe is right, but if someone else’s conscience tells them differently, I can make my case but ultimately it is their decision to make. So many people on here expect everyone to think and see things the exact same way as them and can’t even seem to imagine someone having different values or a different perspective, and that can be very frustrating.

assassin_aragorn ,

Trans people are not a monolith. There’s other trans people in this thread begging us to vote for Biden for their safety. Your feelings about being a rhetorical token are not invalid, but recognize that other people in your vulnerable group are legitimately crying out for help.

Either way, I’m glad I’m not one of your loved ones. Your own safety is one thing. Their safety is another.

Objection ,

They’re entitled to their views, as I am to mine.

I will do whatever I can to protect my loved ones and ensure they retain access to their meds. But I cannot go against the dictates of my conscience. And as I said, in the long term, solidarity between marginalized groups is the only viable path forward and I will not sacrifice that long term strategy for some fleeting, half-hearted protection. In fact I’ve already seen people applying the “lesser evil” argument to sacrificing trans rights since I posted this. Only by uniting and drawing a red line do we have a chance in the long run.

Diplomjodler3 ,

That’s such an important point. Anyone who thinks a win by Trump will somehow speed up the advent of socialism is just deluded.

HawlSera ,

People think Trump will eventually make things so bad that the average man will salivate at the chance for Socialist rule…

What will actually happen if you get a nasty concoction made from a pinch of Handmaid’s Tale with a dash of Holocaust 2…

And the average man won’t care, as long as the trains run on time and they owned the libs… and if the trains don’t run on time, they probably have libs to blame.

daltotron ,

trains run on time

I am here to regretfully inform you about the state of american rail infrastructure…

HawlSera ,

I know, I sadly know.

HawlSera ,

Right? Imagine it’s a fucking Saw Trap, and there’s an easy way out without sacrificing anyone… and an equally easy way out sacrificing everyone. Make the less sociopathic choice.

Tryptaminev ,

Biden is literally arming a genocide. He was even adamant about his continued support for that. Meanwhile Dems led cities have brutally beaten up peaceful colelge protests and invited fascist MAGA mobs to attack minority students there.

The DNC and Biden do not protect minorities. They are white supremacists with just a bit more moderation to the means they employ, but they will absolutely resort to authoritarian crackdowns if they feel the minorities to step out of line by demanding justice and rights.

NegativeInf ,

And I’d vote for a corpse before I vote for 34 time Convicted Felon Donald Trump. Eat the rich. Pack the courts. Seize the assets of felonious companies.

Invertedouroboros ,

Mother fucker could be Dracula for all I care. Still voting for him.

Paddzr ,

Dracula is cool as fuck tho.

capital ,

My favorite theme so yeah, def voting for that.

HawlSera ,

youtu.be/1Onr4z2fdDM - Dracula’s pretty based, ngl.

Invertedouroboros ,

I’m gonna be honest, I was thinking of Dracula flow when I posted this.

uis ,

There is russian meme “voting for stool just to vote against UR”.

glitchdx ,

You sound like a rational tankie, which by the definitions that lemmies have explained to me, would make you not a tankie.

Warl0k3 ,

“Anyone who thinks themselves a tankie is too self aware to be one” sounds like one of those fallacies you’d learn about in highschool. (What is a tankie, btw? I’ve been too scared to ask…)*

glitchdx ,

I am by no means an expert, but the test that was explained to me is that if you look at the famous tianamen square picture of the guy holding grocery bags facing down a line of tanks, and then proceed to side with the line of tanks, then you’re a tankie.

When I say that I am not an expert, what I actually mean is that I’m a random idiot from the internet, so don’t take anything I say as gospel truth.

I’ve only been on lemmy for a few months, and I’ve never heard the term tankie on any other platform. My understanding is that a tankie is a militant supporter of communism, who completely disregards (or is in support of) how every time it’s ever actually been done it turns into an authoritarian dictatorship (or something similarly unpleasant to live under).

My own biases exposed: I am an american, and most of what I know I learned in the absolutely fucked american public education system, which says communism = evil, because of the red scare a while back.

If you do some googling, there’s a wikipedia article on the subject. I’ve forgotten most of the content of that article shortly after I read it, I should look at it again and maybe it will stick this time.

Objection , (edited )

I’m a tankie. What tankie is supposed to mean is someone who blindly supports anything anyone does so long as they claim to be communist and wave a red flag. There’s maybe a handful of edgy teens who actually fit that description, but the way it’s actually used is to punch left at anyone who supports anything a socialist country has ever done, or who is insufficiently patriotic/nationalistic and is willing to consider things from an internationalist perspective.

If you say for example that Cuba under Castro had a successful literacy program, then there are people who will accuse you of being a tankie just for that. Because it gets used this way, some people like myself chose to reclaim the insult and wear it proudly.

Generally, the actual term for most “tankies” would be Marxist-Leninist. But I actually prefer tankie because it’s a more general, big tent label. It’s used so broadly that even anarchists can be called tankies. It’s basically like “woke” where it doesn’t actually have any real meaning.

Corkyskog ,

Well I think there are probably a half dozen interpretations that people on Lemmy use. One I have heard repeated is that they view the Tiananmen Square event as something that China rightfully did… hence “Tankie”

Objection ,

The idea that that’s the origin of the term is a common misconception. The actual origin was about the USSR under Kruschev sending in the military in response to a rebellion in Hungary. Some British communists supported the move, while other communists opposed it and labeled the supporters as tankies.

But regardless of the origin, it’s changed to where now it’s liberals using it to criticize socialists in general.

uis ,

If you say for example that Cuba under Castro had a successful literacy program, then there are people who will accuse you of being a tankie just for that.

$COUNTRY had a successful literacy program under $LEFT_GOVERMENT.

https://lemm.ee/pictrs/image/5831096d-865c-4f2e-9bb5-23ebaf73175b.jpeg

agamemnonymous ,
@agamemnonymous@sh.itjust.works avatar

A tankie is, broadly, someone who wants to effect left-wing ideology using authoritarian methods. It originally referred to those who defended the USSR using tanks to suppress the Hungarian Revolution, but it could be aptly used to describe those who defend China’s actions in Tiananmen Square. It’s rightfully used as a perjorative, since authoritarian enforcement is antithetical to leftism, particularly communism.

Tankies are hypocrites who didn’t understand their self-proclaimed ideologies. If someone’s idea of communist praxis is lining up dissenters for the firing squad, you’re dealing with a tankie.

go_go_gadget ,

wants to effect left-wing ideology using authoritarian methods

Odd. I’m getting called a tankie because I just won’t vote for Biden (or Trump). Someone must have gotten confused.

TokenBoomer ,

By their reasoning:

No vote for Biden is a vote for Trump. Trump is fascist and authoritarian. Tankies are authoritarians. Therefore, you are a tankie. /s

agamemnonymous ,
@agamemnonymous@sh.itjust.works avatar

Lots of people say lots of silly things, nonetheless Trump is worse for the proletariat than Biden, and turning your nose up at the lesser evil endangers real people when the greater evil wins. You don’t have to vote for the greater evil to help tip the scales in their favor. Accelerationism is authoritarianism with extra steps and no one in the driver’s seat.

go_go_gadget ,

Biden doesn’t accept blame for tipping the scales in their favor. Biden’s family doesn’t accept blame for tipping the scales in their favor. Biden’s campaign doesn’t accept blame for tipping the scales in their favor. The DNC leadership doesn’t accept blame for tipping the scales in their favor. People who voted for Biden in the 2020 primaries don’t accept blame for tipping the scale in their favor. Moderaters and political analysts don’t accept blame for tipping the scales in their favor. People like you letting those people get away with that and focusing on telling me to be quiet and vote for Biden don’t accept blame for tipping the scales in their favor.

I don’t accept blame for it either.

agamemnonymous ,
@agamemnonymous@sh.itjust.works avatar

IDGAF who does or doesn’t accept blame for whatever. I care about material results; my future, my family’s future, my neighbors’ futures, the future of the people who live in this country, and this world. IDGAF how ideologically pure a politician is, or who’s wrong or right, or who gets away with whatever. I care about the people who are going to suffer if the Federalists, Fascists, and Fundamentalists keep establishing their foothold judge by judge, bill by bill, ruling by ruling.

This isn’t grade school, this isn’t a game, this isn’t about fair. There are real stakes here. People will die. I’m not heartless enough to play the blame game with lives on the line. I’m voting harm reduction because I’m an adult and I play the hand I’m dealt. Righteously losing doesn’t help anything but ego-centric deontology.

go_go_gadget ,

I care about material results; my future, my family’s future, my neighbors’ futures, the future of the people who live in this country, and this world.

Same bud. And Biden was never the guy who was going to do that for me. Where were you during the 2020 primaries? Where have you been ever since?

agamemnonymous ,
@agamemnonymous@sh.itjust.works avatar

He’s actually been surprisingly effective. Your distaste doesn’t negate his numerous policy accomplishments with tangible benefits.

Even disregarding that, even if he was ineffective, he’s not trying to concentrate power into the hands of Federalists, Fascists, and Fundamentalists, so he is by default the superior choice to those who are. The material results that I care about, that reasonable adults care about, revolve around stopping the Federalists, Fascists, and Fundamentalists. Or are you on their side?

go_go_gadget ,

He’s actually been surprisingly effective

If you like him then you get him re-elected. I won’t be voting for him a second time.

agamemnonymous ,
@agamemnonymous@sh.itjust.works avatar

The material results that I care about, that reasonable adults care about, revolve around stopping the Federalists, Fascists, and Fundamentalists. Or are you on their side?

So the answer to that question is “Yes”. Got it. I’m not surprised.

ssj2marx ,

Tankies are hypocrites who didn’t understand their self-proclaimed ideologies.

Tankies are very frequently the only people in the room who’ve done the reading. If you believe that so called “authoritarian methods” are antithetical to leftism, then I recommend you read the following pamphlet by Engels.

TopRamenBinLaden , (edited )

Tankies have read Marx and Engels, yes, but there are many other forms of leftism and even other forms of communism that aren’t ML. You are right about ML communists, in particular, but many other leftist movements are anti-authoritarian by their nature, so the point still stands.

Also, it’s possible to do the reading and disagree with the methods of implementation. I agree with the economics and the stated goals of communism, but I don’t believe authoritarianism is the best way to go about it.

ssj2marx ,

but I don’t believe authoritarianism is the best way to go about it.

Humor me for a moment, which of the following do you consider authoritarian?

  • asking your boss for better wages
  • using the power of a union to force your boss to give your coworkers better wages
  • using the power of the state to force all bosses to pay all workers better wages
TopRamenBinLaden ,

I hop off the train at the part where the top-down dictatorship comes into play. Probably a bit before the level of authoritarianism where the Joseph Stalin type starts killing people for having a dissenting opinion, and what not.

Using the state to enforce good wages and end the terribleness of the stock market/landlord culture does not need to involve a top down dictatorship and a lack of democracy.

I know about the “dictatorship of the proletariat” and all that, and in my opinion, it should involve all of the workers, not one person or a small group of people. A top down dictatorship just makes it all that easier for the party to be infiltrated and controlled by bourgeois interests. If said dictatorship is a true democracy, with each worker having an equal say, it makes it pretty hard to control the proles.

ssj2marx ,

So you wouldn’t accept any system that’s not a direct democracy? Where every single person is involved in every single vote? It’s a coherent position I suppose, but IMO totally impractical and idealistic.

Gigasser ,

I don’t think it’s realistic or pragmatic to expect a perfect direct democracy system. Trying to get as close to one as feasibly possible can be a goal though, and once we’re at that point, try to continually and slowly improve that direct democracy system until it’s even closer and closer and closer, ad infinitum.

Belastend ,

You completely disregard, that the soviet union did number 3 and crushed all unions not falling in line. Or that they ignore the will of the proletariat during the 1917 and 1918 elections numerous times.

The authoritarian way isnt being critized for coming down on Capitalists. Its critized for how it treated every deviation from the party line. And especially, how it turned into a political chess game at the top, which prioritized amassing personal power and wealth over the actual well being of the state.

ssj2marx ,

If by “not falling in line” you mean “actively sabotaging the working class for selfish reasons” then I suppose you have a point, but I would argue that in class war those organizations which do not support the working class are fair targets.

the will of the proletariat during the 1917 and 1918 elections

By the time the Bolsheviks were disregarding the results of elections, the People’s Soviets were the state power in the former Russian Empire, and they were a hundred times more democratic than the Duma ever was.

amassing personal power and wealth

I’m sorry comrade but the Soviets simply never did this. The benefits enjoyed by even top Party officials paled in comparison to the lavish lifestyles of the former Russian Empire’s aristocracy or those of the ruling class of any of their contemporary capitalist rivals - even fucking Stalin lived in a shared apartment!

Objectively speaking the Soviet Union was one of the most democratic and equal societies on this Earth during the time of its existence, and you can very clearly see in the data how their system equalized wealth (not “perfectly”, just “better than everyone else has ever done it”), and how the destruction of their system undid all of their progress.

https://lemmy.ml/pictrs/image/a34af01f-e086-468d-b5ff-1570f69c8153.jpeg

Belastend ,

By your metric Stalin should have been shot for undermining soviet defensive capabilities by purging almost every capable military leader? What did Tukhachevsky, Bukharin, Blyukher or Yegorov do to get executed? What were their sabotages? Their names got dropped by tortured officers and in turn they got shot. Setting the red army back years in experience.

And lets not forget the ethnic targetting: Between 1936 and 1938 nearly all ethnic Baltic People were cleansed put of the upper echelon.

ssj2marx ,

I never said mistakes weren’t made. Class war is war and war has collateral damage. The problem here is the total idealistic rejection of “authoritarianism”, where every single thing that has ever worked is classed as such and therefore made off-limits.

Belastend ,

“war has collateral damage” mate, Stalins Purges killed 700.000 at least and cost many more people their lives during WW2. Hitler ciuld have been stopped much earloer if Stalin hadnt replaced almost every capable commander with some yes man.

And their purges werent even class war. It was war to uphold the power of a small clique and to satisfy their paranoia.

Just like any other imperialism, the USSR worked out for the imperial core, while the periferal states were fucked over.

I dont want to fucking replace the boot with another one. I want the boot gone.

ssj2marx ,

And yet the Soviet economy uplifted hundreds of millions from poverty and built the war machine that was critical in stopping the Nazis. People went from working on tenant farms to living in modern cities with all of the amenities of the time in a single generation, and the first man in space was the son of a farmer! The achievements of the Soviet Union - yes, even the Soviet Union under Stalin - far outstrip its failures and mistakes. I’m partial to Mao’s overall critique of Stalin, that he was 70% good and 30% bad (which also applies to Mao as it turns out), and I feel that Mark Twain’s quote about the French Revolution equally applies to the Russian one.

THERE were two “Reigns of Terror,” if we would but remember it and consider it; the one wrought murder in hot passion, the other in heartless cold blood; the one lasted mere months, the other had lasted a thousand years; the one inflicted death upon ten thousand persons, the other upon a hundred millions; but our shudders are all for the “horrors” of the minor Terror, the momentary Terror, so to speak; whereas, what is the horror of swift death by the axe, compared with lifelong death from hunger, cold, insult, cruelty, and heart-break? What is swift death by lightning compared with death by slow fire at the stake? A city cemetery could contain the coffins filled by that brief Terror which we have all been so diligently taught to shiver at and mourn over; but all France could hardly contain the coffins filled by that older and real Terror—that unspeakably bitter and awful Terror which none of us has been taught to see in its vastness or pity as it deserves.

one last thing

I dont want to fucking replace the boot with another one. I want the boot gone.

Me too, brother. But the bourgeoisie aren’t going to lift the boot from anyone’s neck willingly, and we have to be willing to stomp on their neck when we have the chance, otherwise a world without class is and will remain completely impossible.

Belastend ,

Once again, i am willing to resort tp violence. but not for party elites. I am still getting the impression that you deem the great Terror to have been necessary. It wasnt. It didnt stomp out the “bourgeoisie”. It murdered old comrades fpr not bowing deep enough. It was the establishment of a cult of personality, in which noone was to critize the dear Leader. Which is eerily similar to Maos switch from “Please critize me and the party, for this is the only way of improving” to “Everyone who ever wrote something bad about the Party, the State or me is a despicable wrecker and needs to be dispatched” within one year.

I believe, that Millions of Non-Russian and Non-Georgians within the Sovietunion would have lived a better life, if the despotism within the Soviet Power Clique had been curbed. Stalins “30%” bad is more than just the Great Terror. Its the deportations and the ethnic cleansing of the new ruling class.

The Fall of the Soviet Union was a tragedy to the imperial russian core and its subsequent plundering remains one of the greatest failures of the 20th century, i grant you that.

ssj2marx ,

you deem the great Terror to have been necessary

Repression of the previous ruling class was absolutely necessary, the fact that it went overboard and also targeted comrades is the mistake. If it were possible to have a revolution that made absolutely no mistakes I would sign onto it no question, but I believe that such a thing is idealistic nonsense - and that forswearing all repression of the previous ruling class in order to not accidentally target comrades is far worse, because it takes an essential tool out of the revolutionary’s belt and replaces it with nothing.

Belastend ,

Previous Ruling class? The Great Terror almost exclusively killed old comrades. Once again, the 1936 purges did not target the bourgeosie.

agamemnonymous ,
@agamemnonymous@sh.itjust.works avatar

There’s a difference between someone-needs-to-coordinate-and-manage-complex-undertakings “authoritarian” and line-the-dissidents-up-against-the-wall “authoritarian”. Tankies are the latter.

ssj2marx ,

We have class war waged against us by the bourgeoisie, and thousands of people are casualties of that war every single day. Expecting to turn the tide against them without getting our hands dirty in turn is useless idealism.

agamemnonymous ,
@agamemnonymous@sh.itjust.works avatar

Uh huh, and historically violent authoritarian transitional regimes are always so willing to step aside after the transition.

Belastend ,

Getting our hands dirty means shooting comrades who carried the revolutionary wars for being a bit yucky.

ZombiFrancis ,

Militant leftist, in the most basic sense.

But anti-leftists tend to co-opt the term to replace ‘fascist’ or ‘nazi’ in their discourse.

awwwyissss ,

People that are happy to run people over in tanks to force their communist version of society on everyone else.

HawlSera ,

Oh my god! A tankie who’s not fucking stupid. I never thought I’d see the day.

TokenBoomer ,

This is the way.

avidamoeba , (edited )
@avidamoeba@lemmy.ca avatar

On one hand I’d like it if the Democrats put up someone more certain to beat Trump. On the other Joe has shown he supports labor and things are moving in the right direction in that regard. I’d hate it if he we get a corpo Democrat that halts this progress.

FlexibleToast ,

Technically I’m voting for Biden, in reality I’m voting against Trump. I really wish I had a better option…

Wxnzxn ,
@Wxnzxn@lemmy.ml avatar

Outside of voting, you have options. I’m not American, but I’d advise any communists to vote Biden simply because the repression under Trump could get really ugly, hindering any proper organisation. Just view it as what I think it also actually is: A cynical, pragmatic move to save you and other working people from more open repression, nothing more.

But before and after voting: Put your energy into unions like the IWW, into neighbourhood organisations for mutual aid, into community defense like the SRA or Redneck Revolt, into antifascist organisation, into refining your own position and presenting it to others. Create networks and connections. All preventing Trump is doing is buying time for now to do exactly that. Things will only get worse in the decades ahead, with no end in sight for the climate catastrophe and further decay of capitalism - and laying the groundwork of actually being able to do something is critically important right now, in my opinion.

Of course everyone is in the end their own master when it comes to decisions like this. Just - remember that by not voting in this specific election you also aren’t changing anything. And while I fully understand the desire to organise for a third party, they have been marginalised effectively, at least I personally don’t think electoral politics will bring any relevant changes, one way or the other. They are just about who carries the whip used against you, and in this case if the are openly and harshly, or covertly and less efficiently using it.

That all being said - I think a few people here overestimate the amount of tankies and communists that won’t vote Biden. The group is marginal in the big scheme of things. If Biden loses, you can be certain, they were not responsible, they are most likely less than 1% of voters. Personally, I’d blame the corporate core of the Democratic party and middle class liberals for being out of touch with reality.

go_go_gadget ,

If Biden loses, you can be certain, they were not responsible, they are most likely less than 1% of voters

Nah, they’ll blame us the same way they blame us for losing the 2016 general election. We are simultaneously too small to matter but able to turn the tide of the largest election in the United States.

TrickDacy ,

Don’t we all? … I think very few people would choose Biden absent it being necessary to avoid the hellscape guaranteed by not voting for him

bloodfart ,

I’m voting party for socialism and liberation and you can too. They’re running Claudia de la Cruz on a platform of Palestinian statehood and an end to arms shipments to Israel.

For me there’s no better time to start building a new American political formation. If the democrats wise up and snap left when they see the third party/lack of turnout then that’s fine too.

Facebones ,

The left got so close to taking the DNC in 2016 they had to go to court to affirm their right to tell the left to eat a dick regardless of voters or donations, and now they’re pushing legislation to strip the red tape from taking away nonprofit status from leftist orgs. Dems are running scared and it has their faschie flag flying high (see op disinformation campaign claiming anyone who dislikes biden is a ‘tankie’)

Of course, even though they’ve spent more time attacking the left than they EVER have Republicans they’ll be happy to place the singular blame on us then march further right so they can shocked pikachu when the left doesn’t vote for them then either.

FlexibleToast ,

This vote is far too important to protest vote. Especially now that I live in a swing state.

PopOfAfrica ,

That’s not called a protest vote. That’s just called a vote.

FlexibleToast ,

Whatever helps you sleep at night if Trump gets elected.

PopOfAfrica , (edited )

Thats why Biden stepping down is so important right now. They need to get guys like this poster to vote D this time. Any generic dem with a pulse will do that.

Its the partys fault if they cant get an easy vote, not the voter’s

FlexibleToast ,

Its the parts fault if they cant get an easy vote, not the voter’s

Ultimately, yes that’s the case. It’s the candidates job to attract voters.

bloodfart ,

Voting for what you actually want to happen is literally the only way to communicate your needs to political parties that they actually listen to.

There are people whose whole education and job is just to know how many people in a given district that the party can pick up by adopting aspects of a particular platform.

Tell them! Tell them that you won’t vote for them unless they take up the antiwar, Medicare for all torch! Tell them that they can’t get your district without a housing guarantee and free school lunch! Tell them to stop the genocide in the only way they listen to!

It’s not a protest to use your vote.

FlexibleToast ,

And that’s great, that’s what I do in the primaries. I’m not about to risk a Trump presidency just to place a vote for a 3rd party that I probably also don’t actually like. Just plug the nose and stop the larger threat.

bloodfart ,

Oh well, if you clearly communicate your needs during the primary and fall in line for the general then why wouldn’t the democrats reward your loyalty by adopting your positions!

How clear and transparent would the upcoming trump presidency have to be for you to jump ship from the democrats and take up a position that they have to aim for in 2028?

Wxnzxn ,
@Wxnzxn@lemmy.ml avatar

So, take this point of view as what it is: a view on the situation from an outsider, I am not American, I am a German communist. While I do probably look more closely at American politics than most likely the average American simply from being interested in politics to a pathological degree, I might not have the full picture of an American who is also as interested in politics.

I think in this particular moment, as much as the Democrats do their best to antagonise you, as much as you are correct that someone like Biden will continue with the same status quo bullshit that created the situation to begin with, as much as he won’t be helping the people suffering from (neo)-colonialism in a meaningful way overseas - I don’t think that this particular election is the time to vote third party. The chance may come, and best then to do it not as individuals based on your personal conscience, but as an organised group, with concrete messaging communicated. And even in other elections and outside this vote, organising for a third party - while I personally don’t have a lot of hope for electoral politics - is certainly better than investing energy into the Democratic party, whose supporters seem to have no problems spewing hatred towards you for not agreeing with their party line and view of reality.

But I think underestimating Trump could be genuinely dangerous. Not because he will “ruin America” or anything like that. Simply, because he will be in a position to dial up repression, potentially leaving you with a situation in 2-4 years, where the party you voted for has to move underground, either having gotten outlawed or further marginalised and infiltrated. The situation looks critical enough to me, that under a Trump presidency, unions and leftist orgs will face open persecution much more than under someone like Biden - who is admittedly bad enough. Persecution up to outright criminalising them, to encouraging right-wing militias to kill their members with a slap on the wrist as a consequence or no legal repercussions at all. Yes, I do think that is unfortinately a realisitic possibility. And at this point, I don’t think leftist orgs in the US have the resilience yet to efficiently organise in the underground.

That being said, I won’t tell you a vitriolic “you will be at fault” if you choose to vote and organise as you want to. I do also see advantages, like getting visibility for your issues and potentially by reaching certain threshholds getting public funding support and the likes (that exists in the US too, right?). But I’d still advise it in this election - as shitty and cynical as it is - to vote for the old fart that doesn’t swing the whip of the state as hard on your back as the one that might outright strangle you with it. Getting a proper communist, grassroots organisation running in the United States is important for the whole world, and I fear it will be impossible, or at least much, much harder under Trump (mostly, again, because there are no proper structures in place to move into illegality and organising underground, from everything I can tell.)

bloodfart ,

it’s already like that.

assassin_aragorn ,

How does de la Cruz intend to stop arms shipments without any congressional representation to push legislation to do so?

If Congress says money must be spent on sending Israel weapons, then the president has to follow that in some capacity. The president could try to stop shipments, but that would result in a swift court case, and the president would be compelled to continue sending weapons. The executive branch has discretion in how to do so, but it unfortunately does not have the authority to end it.

You need Congress if you’re going to stop all shipments. Alternatively I suppose you could try to have the judiciary in your favor, but that means de la Cruz now needs the Supreme Court on her side.

It’s a complete misconception in American society and politics that the president can do anything. They’re certainly the most powerful single individual, but Congress is still much stronger.

The Party for Socialism and Liberation would be much better served trying to win Congressional races so they can push for bills to end weapon shipments. If they could take a number of strong Republican districts with their message, it would give them a lot more influence.

bloodfart ,

lets say youre right, and the president can’t do anything to stop arms shipments. simply forcing the (it wouldn’t be swift, the supreme court works on a set schedule) case would be better than rubberstamping the appropriations of our genocidal congress.

simply forcing the supreme court to rule would be powerful!

make them put their names on their genocide! even if the executive fails wouldn’t it be better to actually try everything to stop the genocide than to simply say “nothing i could do!”?

of course, if the executive branch were so weak there’d be no reason to fear project 2025, but i’ll leave that alone.

but there are tons of ways to hamstring aid, usually it’s not explicitly listed what aid will be sent in a bill, that’s left up to the executive. in that case de la cruz could send nonlethal military supplies like food, medical and replacement parts.

in the case that aid is specified, it can be slow walked as part of a peace deal, it can be deactivated or simply sent during adverse conditions that will ensure it never arrives.

psl has been running in state, local and congressional elections since 2008.

its astounding to me how many people reply to posts like this saying “you can’t win, so dont try!” or “its going to be hard and people will oppose you, so give up!”.

splonglo ,

I think the Tankies have already made their minds up. The real people who won’t be voting Biden are some % people who saw the debate.

Carlo ,

I agree that it’s only really the low-information undecided voters who will be swayed by a bad debate performance. Happily, we still have 5 months until the election, and I doubt that many people will be thinking about this by the time they get to the ballot box.

TrickDacy ,

BuT tHaT mEaNs yOu LovE gEnOcIdE.

That’s what extra militant Joffrey says so it must be true.

blazera ,
@blazera@lemmy.world avatar

Why are so many biden supporters arguing like a grade schooler. “YeAh WeLl ThIs Is HoW yOu SoUnD”

TrickDacy ,

It’s just because we LOOOOOVE genocide /s

nyctre ,

There’s no good way to argue with trump supporters so this is the easiest, least brain damaging way. All the arguments have been beaten to death 10 times over. And those that still claim 3rd party votes in november will change anything for the better won’t be swayed either.

blazera ,
@blazera@lemmy.world avatar

The people criticizing Biden for the genocide arent trump supporters. Its left leaning voters that…arent fans of genocide.

nyctre ,

Like I said, people that think voting 3rd party in november is gonna change something aren’t gonna be swayed either.

blazera ,
@blazera@lemmy.world avatar

How about people that think Biden should drop out so democrats have a chance of beating Trump.

nyctre ,

Are you just making up people and arguments? Because that’s not an argument that I hear people making. Also it’s too late now and no other democrat could beat trump right now, unfortunately

blazera ,
@blazera@lemmy.world avatar

I say theres plenty of time and any other democrat would have a better chance of beating trump. No one likes Biden, no ones voting for Biden, theyre voting against Trump. If he drops out for someone else, tell me you wont vote for the replacement. Still a democrat, still not Trump, younger.

nyctre ,

I would, sure, but I’m not sure about the majority. Dunno… Most people are super uninformed and vote based on silly shit. They put less thought into it than they do into the stuff they buy at the supermarket. And most people don’t put much thought into that either, I was surprised to find out.

umbrella ,
@umbrella@lemmy.ml avatar

why would i be mad for you wasting your time? go right ahead.

greywolf0x1 ,

Exactly, why did they feel the need to tell us?

nyctre ,

It was just a honeypot. Served its purpose.

demizerone ,

I’m voting for the man with one foot in the coffin that is not trump, but it doesn’t matter because I don’t live in a swing state.

GiddyGap ,

it doesn’t matter because I don’t live in a swing state.

Not true. It absolutely does matter.

Zink ,

+1 TO BIDEN POPULAR VOTES = +1 TO TRUMP TEARS 💦

Share if you believe! 🙏

Corkyskog ,

I don’t, I firmly disbelieve. Trump will only care if you’re in a purple state that he tracks the metrics on. He is too dumb to see or care about other stats.

Zink ,

Yeah you’re right, unfortunately.

PythagreousTitties ,

This is embarrassing

Zink ,

It is if you take it seriously rather than as a parody of the modern version of FWD:FWD:Re:FWD:.

Holyginz ,

What I’ve seen so many people not understand with the situation we are in right now, is that we can’t fix our current situation in one election. Everything is far to tucked up for that, so the best that can be done is vote for the least fucked up option and work to improve things. People refusing to participate or vote for the candidate who is unfortunately our best option currently (biden) are doing more damage than the people voting for the fascist party. The perfect candidate/option does not exist and never will (obviously not saying everything biden has done has been good).

Objection ,

People refusing to participate or vote for the candidate who is unfortunately our best option currently (biden) are doing more damage than the people voting for the fascist party.

Incredible take. “Say what you will about fascists, at least they support the two party system.”

go_go_gadget ,

Right? Who knew refusing to vote for someone you don’t support is more damaging than storming the capitol.

Objection ,

These people have truly gone off the deep end. I don’t even know what to say. How do you reason with that? I can barely even comprehend it.

drunkpostdisaster ,

They don’t support a two party system. The are stuck in one same as us.

zarkanian ,
@zarkanian@sh.itjust.works avatar

so the best that can be done is vote for the least fucked up option and work to improve things.

Democrats were good at the first part, but not the second. I remember lots of Dems saying “Vote for Biden, and then we’ll hold his feet to the fire!” Well, there was no “holding his feet to the fire”, because that’s seen as enabling Trump.

The perfect candidate/option does not exist and never will

Yes, but there are candidates who are better, such as Jill Stein and Cornel West. You can’t vote for a perfect candidate, but you can vote for the best candidate.

Holyginz ,

You need to also vote for someone who actually has a chance to win. Voting for a better candidate who realistically can’t win in elections like this were someone like Trump could win is basically handing Trump the win. His base doesn’t think for themselves, and would vote for him if he killed their family in front of them. I wish to God we had Bernie instead of Biden, but Bernie wouldn’t have won.

zarkanian ,
@zarkanian@sh.itjust.works avatar

I live in a blue state, so using that logic, I shouldn’t vote at all. Voting for Trump or Biden is a waste of time, because the state will go blue regardless.

His base doesn’t think for themselves, and would vote for him if he killed their family in front of them.

If Biden killed your family in front of you, would you still vote for him?

I wish to God we had Bernie instead of Biden, but Bernie wouldn’t have won.

What convinced you of this?

chiliedogg ,

You might as well vote for Barney the dinosaur for all the good it will do.

A vote for a candidate who cannot win is wasted.

go_go_gadget ,

A vote for a candidate who cannot win is wasted.

Then it sounds like moderates need to be convinced a vote for a pro-corporate, genocide supporting, establishment geriatric is a waste of a vote.

Freefall ,

wait, that is both of them! So, the felon adulterer serial liar narcissist one or the one that is older by two years and doesn’t know where he is or what he is saying sometimes?

psycho_driver ,

Right? Everything you can say negative about Biden can be said about Trump and Trump will be the worse offender of the two. Biden does have positive qualities, which I honestly cannot think can be said about Trump. He is a sushi roll consisting entirely of turd.

go_go_gadget ,

The difference being people voted for Biden in the 2020 primaries over much better people. I’m not going to reward that behavior again.

Tryptaminev ,

And you are happily imprisoning yourself into believing that the system is right to only offer you these two as candidates. If everyone that was progressive and unhappy with Biden would vote for Stein, then she could win. It is the mere talk about her having no chance of winning and the vote being wasted that keeps people in line to take the system as is.

I see the same arguments made against voting for smaller parties in my country where there is a minimum % they need to achieve before getting parliament seats. It is a system designed to preserve the current political elites with their network to the economic and cultural elites against ideas and movements taking a foothold.

Everyone sees what Biden is and what he stands for. If everyone who disagrees with that would take to the streets and demand the DNC to hold a real primary, or better yet demand fundamental changes to the political system, you would be surprised what is possible.

chiliedogg ,

Stein isn’t in the ballot in enough states to win the electoral college. She literally cannot win.

gardylou ,

deleted_by_author

    •
    zarkanian ,
    @zarkanian@sh.itjust.works avatar

    “Everybody who disagrees with me is a tankie!”

    zarkanian ,
    @zarkanian@sh.itjust.works avatar

    No candidate can win, unless you vote for them. That’s the entire point of voting.

    go_go_gadget ,

    are doing more damage than the people voting for the fascist party.

    Hooooooly fuck this gets 27 upvotes? There it is folks. Leftists are doing more damage by refusing to vote than the people who stormed the capitol. This hot take brought to you by lemmy.

    JasonDJ , (edited )

    The Republican party wouldn’t exist if everybody voted. That is a straight up fact. As fucked as our election system is, they are far enough the minority that if everyone got out, the EC wouldn’t matter.

    You want a “left light” and a “true left”, you aren’t going to get it by abstaining, or by voting for nonviable moonshot third-party candidates. You are going to get it by abolishing the far right party and making that tiny sliver of the whole population realize that their antiquated views aren’t welcome here.

    They need to be crushed.

    They only exist because people don’t want to vote for the lesser of two evils, so instead they just don’t vote. And what do you know, a -1 for the less evil is just as effective as a +1 for the more evil.

    All of their success is brought on by feeding apathy in their opposition, making it more difficult to vote, destroying any faith in the system, and gerrymandering.

    So yes, in my opinion, the far left refusing to hold their nose for a few minutes may as well be voting for the insurrectionist.

    go_go_gadget ,

    They need to be crushed.

    Then the way to do that is find a candidate in the primaries who appeals to everyone you need to make that happen. It was never a secret Biden was not that person.

    It’s a free country though. Feel free to go with whatever pitiful strategy you want. But you won’t get the pro-corporate genocide supporting brain dead geriatric with my help. Let me know when you’re ready to negotiate.

    ProIsh ,

    And if the Republicans get power this time around with a plan to remove all of our rights to hold even fair elections (project 2025) there won’t be any negotiating. I’m a white cis male and it seems like you are too. We’ll be fine either way. It’s minorities and vulnerable classes that will get hit the most, like always. Women lost rights this last time around, it worries me how much more worse it will get.

    Do I want Joe? Hell no, but I’ll vote D for the rest of my days and walk through glass to do it. Once there’s no more Rs then we can argue between Joe Biden and AOC. Still ain’t perfect but a lot better than what we have.

    It’s a free country for now, feel free to sit this one out.

    go_go_gadget ,

    And if the Republicans get power this time around with a plan to remove all of our rights to hold even fair elections (project 2025) there won’t be any negotiating.

    Sounds like the 2020 primaries were pretty important.

    TokenBoomer ,

    I’ll let Lawrence O’Donnell, MSNBC host and Democratic insider explain.

    Tryptaminev ,

    In a two party system the only way to “crush” the extreme right is by establishing another party to take the spot in the two party system. And you know what will happen then? The Dems will move from being the far right party with gay rights to being the extreme right party. Because they already are far right by any sensible measure.

    retrospectology ,
    @retrospectology@lemmy.world avatar

    So this happened under Obama. People voted blue no matter who, gave Dems a super majority and they used it to pass a GOP-crafted bill that forced people to pay for useless private insurance.

    The party itself needs to change and the types of candidates that the establishment supports needs to change. That doesn’t happen when they can do their pied piper thing and keep winning. And no “just one last hit” won’t let them overcome the addiction to corporate conservativism.

    NecroParagon ,

    33 after I just upvoted. Vote for the Joe.

    nexguy ,
    @nexguy@lemmy.world avatar

    1000 people stormed the capitol. Allowing trump to win is far far far worse. Federal judge appointments alone are worth far more.

    retrospectology ,
    @retrospectology@lemmy.world avatar

    Yes, Hillary and the DNC allowed Trump to win by ignoring their base and chasing imaginary “swing” voters. And now they’re doing it again.

    Tartas1995 ,

    Who said that? No one said that refusing to vote is doing more damage than storming the Capitol.

    You quoted it. Weird starting point to gaslight people.

    ssj2marx ,

    we can’t fix our current situation in one election.

    We can never fix the current situation in one election. Fixing the American system, within the parameters set forth by that system, requires a dedicated voting bloc that lasts multiple elections refusing to vote for the Dems until they shift far enough left to appease that bloc. As long as you are focused on the next election, your prescription for fixing American politics is just as unrealistic as a random Twitter tankie declaring a general strike.

    TokenBoomer ,

    Why you gotta smoke the UAW president, Shawn Fain?

    TopRamenBinLaden ,

    If Project 2025 is successful, we won’t ever have another democratic election. Our election is going to work like Russia’s does after that point, and we will have a dictator of some kind that pretends to hold elections.

    So, unfortunately, this is not the way.

    ssj2marx ,

    Our election is going to work like Russia’s does

    We already have sham elections, ours just pretends to have two democratic parties instead of one.

    TopRamenBinLaden ,

    You are very right, and I feel your pain. I’m not judging you for feeling that way, at all.

    I just don’t think that abstaining from voting is going to work in favor of fixing this issue. If anything we need to keep voting to keep the country as left as it can be for now, until we can shift the two parties we are forced to pick from farther to the left.

    ssj2marx ,

    As I said in another comment, this mode of thought is completely defeatist. If you rule out the possibility of a violent uprising and look at how to change our system from within the system itself, the ONLY way to push the country left is for a dedicated bloc of people to refuse to vote for centrist Democrats for multiple elections in a row until the party center aligns with that bloc. That’s the reason why every one of the last few elections has been “the most important election in history” and all the other crap.

    fine_sandy_bottom ,

    Perfect! Don’t vote for the dems for several elections. I’m certain this plan will usher in a new era of progressive politics. Well done. You idiot.

    ssj2marx ,

    To push the Dems left you can either a) reward them for moving left or b) punish them for moving right. Continuing to vote for them year after year as they continually move to the right accomplishes neither of these things.

    fine_sandy_bottom ,

    you can either a) reward them for moving left or b) punish them for moving right

    You’re talking about the political will of a nation as you would training a puppy. It’s incredibly reductive and simply not how the overton window works.

    If the republicans win the next several elections the democrats will move further to the right to try to steal votes off them. The republicans will have to move further to the right to differentiate themselves from the democrats.

    Not surprisingly, the more republicans win elections the further right everything moves.

    Your position is exactly where the conservatives would have you. They can’t win your vote so their best outcome is to convince you not to vote.

    masterspace ,

    This is naiive accelerationist nonsense.

    You do not fix systems by ignoring them and letting badgers tear them apart for years in your absence.

    The vast majority of the time, actual change comes from people engaging with the system and slowly pushing it in the right direction.

    ssj2marx ,

    If every single incentive structure rewards the Democrats for shifting to the right, please tell me how on earth they are under any pressure at all to shift back to the left. The answer is that they’re not, and the people who believe that they’re engaging in the system and pushing it in the right direction are simply fooling themselves as they take part in the system’s unstoppable rightward movement.

    PopOfAfrica ,

    Forget a perfect candidate. Just go back and watch the 2012 debate and both Obama and Mitt Romney were infinitely better than Joe Biden or Trump.

    NormalPerson ,

    But they never told me which of them was the better golfer.

    God it feels stupid to write that and it being an actual argument during a presidential debate.

    abracaDavid ,

    Biden is simply not our best option.

    What exactly makes a geriatric 81 year old the most fit person for the job?

    There is plenty of time to get a new candidate.

    Tryptaminev ,

    I mean all the concerned people could take to the streets right now.

    The DNC wants you to believe that all you can do is cast your vote for something every other year and just take the options presented. In that sense they are worse than the Reps who encourage their base to be active for more than just the ballots and it is working.

    Especially now the Dems give me huge 1984 vibes in how the individual should handle politics relative to the party.

    retrospectology ,
    @retrospectology@lemmy.world avatar

    People do understand that concept, but it’s literally what Democrats have been doing for the past 40 years and it has put us right here where we are right now. The “lesser of two evils” thing just has no propellant left, no one is buying that line anymore. Neoliberalism needs to go before Democrats can start winning again.

    You need to understand that people have been saying “just put the neolibs in power again and we’ll work to improve things” every election cycle, and now we are closer to fascism than we’ve literally ever been. You at least understand why people see that strategy as a failure, right? Like, you understand why no one believes it anymore?

    AnyOldName3 ,
    @AnyOldName3@lemmy.world avatar

    A vote for neoliberals is a vote to not have fascism for four more years. America’s voting system doesn’t allow the never-have-fascism votes to be pooled with the delay-fascism votes, so unless there’s a decent chance for a mass swing of voters from delay-fascism to never-have-fascism, trying to encourage a small-scale swing only makes immediate fascism more likely by weakening the only thing with a chance to delay it.

    If the plan is to try and encourage the Democrats to have primaries that actually have the power to move the party left, now is not the time to withhold a vote in protest as there’s a good chance that even if it did convince them, there’d never be another election that wasn’t rigged so they’d lose it no matter how popular they were.

    retrospectology ,
    @retrospectology@lemmy.world avatar

    A vote for neoliberals is a vote to not have fascism for four more years.

    That’s an extremely hard case to make at this point though when the “not” fascist guy is funding a genocide and refusing to entertain the measures we’d need to take to actually take the fight to the fascists (ex. Championing an effort to pack the supreme court). Neoliberals are not truly acting like democracy is on the line, they say it a lot but it’s not what their actions communicate, which makes it difficult to believe they’d ever stop obstructing progress.

    Neoliberals don’t stop or stall fascists by getting into power – they just soft sell it and give the general public time to acclimate to the slipping of the Overton window. They do this in service of corporate interests rather than theocracy the way the far-right does but it ends us up in the same place.

    If the plan is to try and encourage the Democrats to have primaries that actually have the power to move the party left, now is not the time to withhold a vote in protest as there’s a good chance that even if it did convince them, there’d never be another election that wasn’t rigged so they’d lose it no matter how popular they were.

    Now is the time that the Democratic establishment chooses to try to strong arm the left into voting for them, they do this every election; claim the sky is falling and that we must vote for them or else. So I guess my view is, if they have assessed that they can risk playing a game of chicken, so can voters.

    I understand Project 2025 and its seriousness, but that problem is going to be there every election from here until such a time that the GOP dissolves. I’m skeptical that 4 years will allow them to achieve everything they want to without sweeping the house and senate too. The president cannot legally be crowned king, and if they try to do that perhaps that is what it will take to actually radicalize the self-sedated upper middle-class liberals and political fence-sitters.

    I’m sick of defensive leadership, and any offensive needs to start with attacking the Democratic structure that’s making the party so ineffectual and complicit. More time is not enough in my opinion, people were talking about GOP plans to capture the supreme court as far back as Bush Jr. and giving Democrats wins achieved nothing. They need to be forced to take it seriously and I just don’t see that happening without some pain (for them and, unfortunately, us).

    DAMunzy ,

    Not having enough time and voting for the least fucked candidate is old and tired. How long do we vote for the Turd over the Douche instead of voting for someone that we actually believe in?

    Also, I can’t justify genocide.

    OceanSoap ,

    I’m a capitolist, and I’m not voting Biden.

    Enjoy the Trump win everyone. We deserve it. You can thank the DNC. And Hilary Clinton.

    Also, who’s actually making the calls and decisions right now? It’s not Biden. Obama? Clinton? Or are the DNC themselves deciding?

    enbyecho ,

    Greetings comrade!

    carbonari_sandwich ,

    What is being strange? Am just a normal warm-water port-loving Americain like you.

    HawlSera ,

    As a transwoman of low income, I refuse to be sacrificed so you can take your moral high ground and smile as the world burns away the “unworthy”

    OceanSoap ,

    Didn’t say you couldn’t vote how you want. You don’t have to smile, either

    HawlSera ,

    Yes, but you are still voting for my death.

    OceanSoap ,

    And a vote for Biden is a vote for the death or Palestinian children. If someone dies no matter what, the wind is taken out of your threat. Or is your life more important somehow?

    ralakus ,

    A vote not for Biden is a vote for Trump and the death of thousands of Americans AND Palestinians AND Ukrainians. No matter what option we choose, Palestinians will die. One option just has significantly less death than the other.

    OceanSoap ,

    Nope

    HawlSera ,

    And you think Trump will spare their lives? With Biden, at least people at home are spared, with Trump, literally no one is safe. It’s harm reduction.

    OceanSoap ,

    Lol. No new wars broke out under Trump, at least. As soon ad Biden got in, we were sending tanks back into Syriah. We’ve got two major wars were now proxies for. Didn’t happen under trump.

    Huh… yeah, actually, that’s a good point I just made. Maybe I will vote for him. I wonder how fast the current wars we’re involved in will stop.

    HawlSera ,

    Trump moved the Israeli Embassy to Jerusalem and demanded the use of Nuclear weapons when he was president

    MewtwoLikesMemes ,
    @MewtwoLikesMemes@lemmy.world avatar

    Same! Hear hear!

    Aermis ,

    So who does the capitolost vote for? The rich control the decisions. Like always. The ones who fund the parties. The ones who back the people in power.

    If the people got who they backed we’d probably have Bernie or someone else who got grassroot funding.

    OceanSoap ,

    Not sure who I’ll write in yet.

    HawlSera ,

    The dying geriatric insane old pedophile or the dying geriatric insane old pedophile who is being used to enact Project 2025

    Decisions, decisions…

    Voting Biden!

    PsyDoctah9Jah ,
    @PsyDoctah9Jah@lemmy.world avatar

    …I struggle to see how any sane individual would vote for either option. Or allow their emotions to be unnerved by “politics”. It is also concerning that more people are not aware of how the electoral process works. The popular vote bickering with one another while both sides laugh at you.

    Please stop making decisions rooted in “the lesser of”. If you can pick between the “lesser of two evils” its because you’ve got evil in you…

    …Someone is going to watch your child and you’re given two choices: one is a convicted pedophile and the other is a convicted murderer…

    … for some of us, there is no choice to choose from. Even under duress we have free will. A gun to my head might influence my decision making, I still made a decision…I could have decided otherwise.

    I wont get worked up over political theater. It’s more agonizing to witness them play the same trick, generation after generationn and yall keep drinking the kool-aid 🫤

    pastabatman ,

    The problem with your pedophile vs murderer analogy is that Biden and Trump are not equally bad. Trump is a drastically worse choice than Biden. It’s not even remotely close.

    You can choose not to vote and try to wash your hands of the whole situation, but they will never be clean. If you don’t vote and Trump wins, that’s on your hands too.

    Facebones ,

    Biden has pushed plenty of problematic legislation to further dismantle and demonize anybody further left than mid right establishment democrats and third parties in general - plus continuing to not actually DO ANYTHING to stop the ones they claim to he the “last line of defense” from or to codify the issues they claim to protect - but y’all don’t mind fascism that doesn’t affect your personal status quo.

    pastabatman ,

    I never said Biden is great. I said Trump is unquestionably worse and that is still true. You can be mad about it. Be furious. But don’t let your righteous indignation be the reason we get four more years of trump.

    Facebones ,

    4 more years of Biden just means Trump or the next worse guy next time with 4 more years of prep work dems won’t do a damn thing about because they don’t have a platform if they actually do anything about it.

    I’m over voting for 3 steps right or 5 steps right. We still move right either way and y’all are complicit.

    pastabatman , (edited )

    Fine. Your choice is three steps right (Biden) or five steps right (Trump). Not voting is also five steps right, but you get to feel smug about it. Thanks in advance for your help, I know you’ll make the right decision.

    Facebones ,

    Voting Biden means working tirelessly to spread disinformation about third party voters being non voters who advocate for not voting, like a good little faschie.

    Thank you so much for this perfect example where instead of recognizing somebody’s grievances you call them a Trump supporting non voter and preemptively blame your loss on them (but not enough to actually adjust policy to win those votes of course, thats not the fascist way!)

    Onward Blue MAGA, you have more misinformation to spread!

    dodgy_bagel ,

    Two serial murderers, one with a higher body count and is also a pedophile, rapist, con man, national security threat, insurrectionist, and convicted felon.

    And at that point, it’s not an analogy any more.

    PsyDoctah9Jah ,
    @PsyDoctah9Jah@lemmy.world avatar

    @Pastabatman 😅… you read my comment & thought I’d engage in political banter with you😅 don’t insult my intelligence😆. Only to reply with political comparisons. Tells me you didn’t comprehend. Any retorts rooted in political jargon tells me the message was lost. The analogy isn’t exhaustive…nor was it used as direct synonyms for Biden & Trump…

    Perhaps this will help bring it home…a quarter…is still a quarter no matter hown you flip it, or what side it lands on… you still engaged in commerce…

    Yall gotta stop reading stuff online and cherry picking whatever triggered your emotion, being willfully obtuse, dismissing everything before during and after lol it’s so funny😆

    @dodgy_bagel - I just skipped to the latter part of your reply. Nothing happens until, if ever, the masses can have a common understanding that is based on truth. Expecting the very thing that oppresses you to free you is asinine. Expecting a broken system, a broken process to fix itself is less than smart… you’ve been hoodwinked and bamboozled, the fix was in and has been in for generations. It’s nonsense once you unpack it all and once you do you see the world, things, as they are, and not as they should be. All the brilliant minds in the world and THESE two are your options 🤣😂 why are people so content on elderly people, specifically old white males in office. Living on this planet is definitely interesting to observe…I just smh🙄 what good do your words do if they can’t understand you…

    dodgy_bagel ,

    So in your reality, what happens?

    Seriously, what are you hoping to gain? What’s the desired effect?

    The progressive faction just… never votes. What happens? Magic? Revolution?

    You’re the sane one, so tell me.

    PsyDoctah9Jah ,
    @PsyDoctah9Jah@lemmy.world avatar

    @Pastabatman 😅… you read my comment & thought I’d engage in political banter with you😅 don’t insult my intelligence😆. Only to reply with political comparisons. Tells me you didn’t comprehend. Any retorts rooted in political jargon tells me the message was lost. The analogy isn’t exhaustive…nor was it used as direct synonyms for Biden & Trump…

    Perhaps this will help bring it home…a quarter…is still a quarter no matter hown you flip it, or what side it lands on… you still engaged in commerce…

    Yall gotta stop reading stuff online and cherry picking whatever triggered your emotion, being willfully obtuse, dismissing everything before during and after lol it’s so funny😆

    @dodgy_bagel - I just skipped to the latter part of your reply. Nothing happens until, if ever, the masses can have a common understanding that is based on truth. Expecting the very thing that oppresses you to free you is asinine. Expecting a broken system, a broken process to fix itself is less than smart… you’ve been hoodwinked and bamboozled, the fix was in and has been in for generations. It’s nonsense once you unpack it all and once you do you see the world, things, as they are, and not as they should be. All the brilliant minds in the world and THESE two are your options 🤣😂 why are people so content on elderly people, specifically old white males in office. Living on this planet is definitely interesting to observe…I just smh🙄 what good do your words do if they can’t understand you…

    dodgy_bagel ,

    K. You don’t read all of my short reply then I don’t read past the first sentence of your long winded reply.

    You’re not a serious person.

    PsyDoctah9Jah ,
    @PsyDoctah9Jah@lemmy.world avatar

    All relative. Typical reply when you’ve got nothing😅

    dodgy_bagel ,

    Hey! You read all of my comment this time. Thank you for extending the bare minimum of effort. In return, I’ll read your comments; It’s a reciprocal relationship.

    So, in your view, elections change nothing and we’re all sheeple. True change will occur during the revolution; elections have no consequences. Answer me this:

    For a trans woman, living in the American South, would another Trump presidency lower quality of life for her, raise it, or would it stay roughly the same?

    PsyDoctah9Jah ,
    @PsyDoctah9Jah@lemmy.world avatar

    I’m not trans so I couldn’t say. I’d have to do research.

    I can say the continued LGBTQIALMNOPQRSTUV divisive behaviors aren’t doing anyone any favors. As long as its a separation, things will never evolve. Because they are treating certain sexual orientations as “special” when the root of that is a lack of. If being LGBTQIALMNOP wasn’t seen as “other” and just as regular as “straight” we wouldn’t have these silly debates and ignorant mindsets.

    People have the right to live and exists, without needing an explanation for why they deserve to do so. This planet is so wicked and demonic. Hating someone because their sexual orientation, skin complexion, gender differs from your wheelhouse is insanity. Low intelligence.

    I haven’t been alive long, yet long enough, I can’t think of 1 major issue that negatively impacted my life based on who was or wasn’t president. Fucked up, is fucked up, no matter whose in that chair. NONE of the past president’s have demonstrated anything on a higher level. They play to your emotions and it’s hilarious to sit back and watch people justifying bs…for generations they piss on your leg and tell you it’s raining… but I’m the conspiracy theorist for grabbing an umbrella… got it.

    Also, if I’m anywhere,south north, ignorance is ignorance hate is hate. I don’t think it’s restricted to the south. I’m not trans but if the south was presenting serious issues, I’d be standing my ground, or relocating. Bullies stop being bullies when you fight back!

    dodgy_bagel , (edited )

    …Okay. Vibe check failed.

    Based on what you wrote, I’m almost certain you can’t vote, so the topic is moot.

    If you’re actually an adult… That’s sad.

    The idea that there wouldn’t be bigotry if nobody made it a big deal is conservative Regan era white racism that you picked up from your parents. Maybe your grandparents.

    The idea that “move or fight” are your two solutions is an infantile mindset. Why should I move away from the place of my birth because of who I am? To abandon my family and weaken my economic standing? How could I fight a man who wants to kick my teeth in because he found out I’m a tranny? What do I do when an employer denies me a job because I’m “not a good fit”?

    You think presidents have no impact on our lives. You think Carter would have killed the same number of queers. You think Mondale would have had the same war on drugs. You think Gore would have loosened EPA regulations. You think Lieberman would have slashed corporate taxes. You think McCain and Romney would have appointed sane justices; that gay marriage would be legal. You think Clinton would have appointed anti abortion justices.

    Every elder gay I know lost multiple friends in the 80s. My life was changed because of the Iraq war. The weather in my area is more erratic because of climate change. Who I was allowed to marry was changed by the obergefell decision. My ability to continue with IVF treatment was ceased due to the abortion ban.

    No president has failed to affect my life. To say that they haven’t affected yours betrays your naivete, your privilege, or both.

    PsyDoctah9Jah ,
    @PsyDoctah9Jah@lemmy.world avatar

    @Pastabatman 😅… you read my comment & thought I’d engage in political banter with you😅 don’t insult my intelligence😆. Only to reply with political comparisons. Tells me you didn’t comprehend. Any retorts rooted in political jargon tells me the message was lost. The analogy isn’t exhaustive…nor was it used as direct synonyms for Biden & Trump…

    Perhaps this will help bring it home…a quarter…is still a quarter no matter hown you flip it, or what side it lands on… you still engaged in commerce…

    Yall gotta stop reading stuff online and cherry picking whatever triggered your emotion, being willfully obtuse, dismissing everything before during and after lol it’s so funny😆

    @dodgy_bagel - I just skipped to the latter part of your reply. Nothing happens until, if ever, the masses can have a common understanding that is based on truth. Expecting the very thing that oppresses you to free you is asinine. Expecting a broken system, a broken process to fix itself is less than smart… you’ve been hoodwinked and bamboozled, the fix was in and has been in for generations. It’s nonsense once you unpack it all and once you do you see the world, things, as they are, and not as they should be. All the brilliant minds in the world and THESE two are your options 🤣😂 why are people so content on elderly people, specifically old white males in office. Living on this planet is definitely interesting to observe…I just smh🙄 what good do your words do if they can’t understand you…

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