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Roku’s Ultimatum: Surrender Jury Trial Rights or Lose Access to Your TVs

Did your Roku TV decide to strong arm you into giving up your rights or lose your FULLY FUNCTIONING WORKING TV? Because mine did.

It doesn’t matter if you only use it as a dumb panel for an Apple TV, Fire stick, or just to play your gaming console. You either agree or get bent.

rizoid ,
@rizoid@lemmy.dbzer0.com avatar

I’m putting together a parts list for a new living room set up. We’re getting a giant digital signage display and connecting it to my htpc.

PeachMan ,
@PeachMan@lemmy.world avatar

This is suuuuuuuper common, most software makes you agree to some sort of arbitration clause. It doesn’t mean that you can’t sue them, it’s just an obstacle to deter you.

gian ,

Only where going to court could bankrupt you.

tsonfeir ,
@tsonfeir@lemm.ee avatar

It should be illegal to make some give up the right to litigation.

Evilcoleslaw ,

The bigger thing here is no class arbitration or other representative proceeding. A lot of law firms do arbitration now against companies either with class arbitration or just thousands of individual arbitrations filed en masse. I wonder if this protects them from even the latter approach? It would be shitty if it forced you to do all the legwork on the arbitration yourself.

In any case I get this is happening now and why it’s such a huge ultimatum is they know they’re about to get hit with a ton of Video Privacy Protection Act suits. Turns out in the late 80s the US made video service providers that share video watching/rental/purchase history open to actual damages of $2500. So in the last year or two a ton of law firms have started filing class actions and arbitrations against all the streaming services and platforms.

KingThrillgore ,
@KingThrillgore@lemmy.ml avatar

If I recall correctly that law was quickly passed when a Congressman’s video rental history was leaked.

catloaf ,

Or follow the directions in section 1(L), as shown in your screenshot. That section says you can opt out by sending a letter to Roku with your name, contact info, product, Roku account email address, and receipt (if applicable). If you feel so strongly about this, opting out is not hard.

Also those terms have been published since 2019 so I don’t know why people are only making a stink about it now. I’d bet that the dispute resolution agreement was in the same terms you agreed to the last time they changed, or when you first set it up.

paraphrand ,

Requiring written opt out for technology that otherwise is internet connected should be considered undue burden. It should also be considered a choice the company made to reduce the number of people opting out.

zalgotext ,

People are probably making a stink because Roku is pushing out these messages to all their TVs, and people don’t typically read mile-long EULAs. When’s the last time you read one?

ReallyActuallyFrankenstein ,

The reason why people are upset is because any update in terms of use that a user doesn’t agree with should be presumptively ineffective, because the user has property rights to use the thing they purchased.

This absurd pop-up reached out of the ether, disabled all of our TVs with no warning, and held the TV hostage until you clicked “Agree.” “Agree” itself is falsely labeled because there is literally no other option. Even following the absurdly cumbersome opt-out process, you still have to click “agree” to use your own property. It’s subtle but deeply dystopian.

wagoner ,

Opt out per the instructions!

MacNCheezus ,
@MacNCheezus@lemmy.today avatar

They REQUIRE you to send them via snail mail.

It even specifically states that email is not valid.

locuester ,

Did you read it? That first paragraph’s last sentence refers you to the section which tells you how to opt out.

L. 30-Day Right to Opt Out. You have the right to opt out of arbitration by sending written notice of your decision to opt out to the following address by mail: General Counsel, Roku Inc., 1701 Junction Court, Suite 100, San Jose, CA 95112 within 30 days of you first becoming subject to these Dispute Resolution Terms. Such notice must include the name of each person opting out and contact information for each such person, the specific product models, software, or services used that are at issue, the email address that you used to set up your Roku account (if you have one), and, if applicable, a copy of your purchase receipt. For clarity, opt-out notices submitted via any method other than mail (including email) will not be effective. If you send timely written notice containing the required information in accordance with this Section 1(L), then neither party will be required to arbitrate the Claims between them.

Badeendje ,
@Badeendje@lemmy.world avatar

It would be hilarious if a lot of people did this. And requested confirmation of receipt, and kept stalking them for these confirmations.

Maybe the letter should be on a0, and a separate one for each member of the household.

swearengen ,

I’m definitely doing it. Worth the cost of a stamp.

I don’t even have a Roku TV just an Ultra hooked up to a monitor so not a lot to lose but it’s the principal of the thing.

CosmicTurtle ,

I’ve requested confirmation and have only gotten it once or twice.

What I’ve started doing is actually just sending them their same exact terms via their corporate registered address (regardless of their instructions) with the arbitration clause and jury trial waiver and just about anything I don’t agree to removed. I tell them so long as they continue to provide the services to me, that they implicitly agree to the terms I’m sending them, with any further updates requiring them to send a registered (not certified) letter.

I intentionally do not provide any way for them to identify my account except for the return address.

I figured if I ever had to go to court, one of these things would happen:

  • judge finds that the original terms are enforceable, which means I’m no worse off
  • judge finds that my amended terms are enforceable, which means it worked
  • judge finds both terms unenforceable and I can continue to sue them

So far, no company has ever written me back or turned off my access to the site.

I suggest everyone do this because these forced arbitration clauses are very anti-consumer and we need to start clawing back our rights.

brbposting ,

🫡🫡🫡

Godspeed soldier

SkyNTP ,

Any reasonable judge will look at this clause and come to the conclusion that Roku is not acting in good faith. It’s so blatantly scummy to have a user have to mail in an opt out request on a consumable’s EULA update that the consumer never asked for long after the initial purchase.

scarabic ,

It’s enraging because information like the account email and TV model are sitting there available to the Roku OS. These could easily be appended to an email at the touch of a button, or transmitted to Roku Legal in an even more efficient programmatic way.

But noooooo, they need to force you to write the shit down with a pen because they know you won’t bother. Next time they want to sell you something, though? That’ll be one click.

I’d love to see a judge throw the book at some company for this kind of horseshit. Last time I refinanced my house I saw the page about opting out of marketing somewhere in the cloud of papers I signed, and meant to go back to it. I did, but it had such a complex table of options that I said to myself “I need to look at this with my glasses.” And then of course I forgot to do that and of course they sold my information everywhere. This is my own credit union that I’ve been with for 12 years, too.

secundnature , (edited )

What an absurd burden to put on someone. If I can opt in electronically, I should be able to opt out electronically.

Tja ,

Which is the law in countries with consumer protections.

essteeyou ,

Surprised they don’t want it hand-delivered at the top of a mountain somewhere.

brbposting ,

What an episode (Piped)

Croquette ,

That’s an overly complicated procedure to opt out.

You gotta opt in, then send a fucking letter with a bazillion nitty gritty information.

First of all, shit like this should be made an example of, and it should as easy to opt out than to opt in. Otherwise, it is predatory

dakial ,

In my pro consumer country there is an amazing law that states that any contract cancellation procedure cannot be more difficult than the contract sign-up procedure. This means it can’t be through different channels or have more steps.

KingThrillgore ,
@KingThrillgore@lemmy.ml avatar

I know what I’m doing tonight. Once I have the letter with all the details in alignment I’ll post an update here to help others.

fishos ,
@fishos@lemmy.world avatar

Got that letter?

GrymEdm ,

I am not a lawyer, but would such a contract be enforceable? To my untrained eye this has a lot of similarity to the unenforceable NDAs I keep on hearing about when people try to bully others into being quiet about crimes.

catloaf ,

It would be up to the individual court.

chirospasm , (edited )
@chirospasm@lemmy.ml avatar

Recommendations to purchase a smart TV but never connect it to a network are futile, as well. Just like Amazon devices, smart TVs will find an open SSID and then phone home for updates without your knowledge.

My recommendation, when these kind of topics come up, is: either exchange your smart TV for a dumb one, or go to an electronics repair shop to have a board or two exchanged (depending on the make and model, older dumb components may be direct-ish replacements for smart ones).

EDIT: Another option? Try a projector! I was looking for dumb TV options online after writing up this comment, and someone on an old Reddit post recommended it. Great idea.

2nd EDIT: Someone else also recommended buying digital signage, another solid dumb display option.

trafficnab ,

If I ever have a device connecting to open networks by itself I’m snipping its wifi antenna

Modern_medicine_isnt ,

Yeah, connecting to open networks seems questionable. If it gets infected and you later connect it to your network, they are clearly at fault. So I doubt they do this.

trafficnab ,

Don’t underestimate how dumb and greedy corpos can be

milicent_bystandr ,

“Sorry, we … maybe won’t do it next time. Here’s a sweety and a $5 coupon now please forget about it.”

swearengen ,

Newer monitors are also good options. Usually they have enough HDCP compliant ports these days and none of the bullshit.

Pair with a sound bar or surround sound system and you got a great setup.

dXq9dwg4zt ,

Recommendations to purchase a smart TV but never connect it to a network are futile, as well.

Not necessarily. Never connecting it to the internet is much better advice than trying to block it’s connections. After that it’s not (usually) difficult to open the back of the TV and simply disconnect the wifi adapter itself. In my experience it’s either a separate board connected by a ribbon cable or the same type of wifi adapter that is commonly found in laptops. If the antennas can be accessed then so can the adapter.

Tja ,

Yes, great advice. Open a high voltage device and play with its internals while voiding your warranty instead of checks notes… not giving it your Wi-Fi password.

Tja ,

Where do you live that you have free wifi all around?

starman2112 ,
@starman2112@sh.itjust.works avatar

If my TV has been finding open wifi networks for updates, it sure hasn’t made me aware of it. I’ve heard a lot of people say that they do this, but I’ve yet to see any proof that it’s happening.

Mereo ,

deleted_by_author

    •
    Evilcoleslaw ,

    I bet Apple has an arbitration clause in your ToS on that as well. Pretty much every company where you agree to a ToS does.

    piracysails ,

    Someone needs to check the privacy policy that they have already agreed.

    FrancisFeliz ,
    @FrancisFeliz@lemmy.world avatar

    That’s why i use a LCD TV with a generic TV Box with Linux installed on It, lol.

    Gork ,

    Smart TVs were supposed to be better than dumb TVs.

    Now it’s the complete opposite.

    Max_P ,
    @Max_P@lemmy.max-p.me avatar

    I wish there were dumb options but since they’re all subsidised with loads of ads, they’re either unaffordable or plain unavailable. They just don’t make them for the consumer market anymore, there’s no demand for it. So they took advantage of that and market the dumb TVs as business TVs at huge markups, like 5+ grands for basic 4K no HDR no VRR no nothing, and they won’t even sell it to you without a registered business account.

    WetBeardHairs ,

    Those displays are not televisions - they are for menus at restaurants. They cost a fortune because they are low volume, high reliability devices that come with service contracts and repairable components.

    SomethingBurger ,

    They are. But not for customers.

    Frozengyro ,

    Technology in general is supposed to make our lives easier. It seems many things these days do the opposite.

    stoly ,

    Smart TV was always a dumb idea. Better to control your own equipment.

    Technus ,

    Worst part is, now you can’t find a dumb TV anymore. The closest thing out there are “commercial signage displays” which are just dumb TVs with limited inputs and usually without remotes, but 25-50% more expensive because “commercial” (and because they won’t be able to continue making money by showing you ads and selling your data) and a lot of retailers won’t let you order one without a business account, or force you to order in bulk.

    And every Neanderthal I complain to is like “but smart TVs have so many more features,” like, bro, I can make any TV the smartest fucking TV in the world by plugging it into the desktop PC I’m gonna keep right next to it anyway. All the “smart” bullshit just gets in the way. I’ve yet to encounter a smart TV UI that didn’t require a dozen button presses to change inputs and spend two seconds or more re-drawing the UI with EVERY INPUT because they put the cheapest processors they can find in these pieces of shit.

    LazaroFilm ,
    @LazaroFilm@lemmy.world avatar

    Computer monitors are dumb tv

    OR3X ,

    Good luck finding a 65 inch computer monitor

    HerbalGamer ,
    @HerbalGamer@sh.itjust.works avatar

    Here you go.

    AnxiousOtter ,

    I mean, thanks for the link but, if you actually try to find it on Amazon for example it doesn’t exist. So that’s not terribly helpful.

    Nuerion ,
    @Nuerion@lemmy.world avatar

    oh no its not on amazon it must not be real

    HerbalGamer ,
    @HerbalGamer@sh.itjust.works avatar

    The thing is 5 years old so that’s hardly surprising. I just googled 65 inch monitor and this was the first hit.

    barsoap ,

    Just checked Geizhals and apparently there’s none currently, the largest is the HP Omen X, 64.5". Close enough though I’d say. There’s 55 monitors 46" and higher but only 7 52" and higher.

    At that size I’m obliged to ask if you don’t want a projector instead.

    VindictiveJudge ,
    @VindictiveJudge@lemmy.world avatar

    It’s also three times the price of a 65 inch 4k TV.

    laughterlaughter ,

    No, the 65 inch 4K TV is three times cheaper because of the smart features. They sell the data they collect from you, and the ads.

    aniki ,

    Projectors are so easy. Currently watching Hulu on an 85" screen.

    acosmichippo , (edited )
    @acosmichippo@lemmy.world avatar

    as a projector owner myself, i would not say “so easy”. they are a lot more work to set up, are more unsightly in living spaces, require light control, require more maintenance and cleaning, and even after all that the picture quality is still never going to approach a decent HDR panel. It’s only really worth it if you need/want a 100”+ picture, otherwise you’d be better off with an 85” TV.

    Chronographs ,

    Not to mention many of the high end projectors now have the same smart tv features built in

    FuglyDuck ,
    @FuglyDuck@lemmy.world avatar

    microcenter has some absurdly expensive monitors.

    Yes. I want one. Not sure why. But I do.

    jjsca ,

    Show me a 50 inch computer monitor with speakers and multiple hdmi inputs, and I’ll agree with you.

    barsoap ,

    Here you are. Included everything 46"+ because 49" are common and the next category is 52" up where things get rare. Both of these are gigantic and have 4 HDMI ports. Neither have displayport which disqualifies them in my eyes because this kind of shit.

    Why would you want speakers though. I mean computer monitors usually come with them but the less said about them the better.

    frostysauce ,

    Congratulations on finding a €1500 dumb TV.

    barsoap ,

    Skipping the first couple because they’re ultrawide (probably not the best for TV usage) the cheapest one is the GIGABYTE AORUS FO48U. 2xHDMI, 1x DisplayPort, 1xUSB-C, about a thousand euroons. Expensive? Well, it’s OLED. So is the equally-priced LG UltraGear OLED 48GQ900-B, Three HDMI plus DisplayPort.

    Also they’re not dumb TVs they don’t come with tuners, a PCIe version will run you about a hundred bucks, plus the rest of your media server. Or something like 20 bucks (seriously) for a receiver, more like 60 if you want a triple-tuner (DVB-C/T2/S2) that runs Linux (double-check that the bootloader is unlocked, though, can’t be arsed to). And yes of course they’re more expensive they’re not cross-financed by showing you ads. Do you want a TV or a billboard?

    cheese_greater ,

    Any tv without internet access is a DumbTV™️, no?

    mean_bean279 ,

    Commercial displays cost more because backlight testing and ratings double or triple. You’re paying more for longer uptime since your display is likely to run 12+ hours a day straight and not for 1-2 hours a day with an occasional 8+ hour usage. You’re also paying actual cost, but a lot of it really has to do with testing and materials that are built to survive consistent and frequent usage, plus centralized management. Lots of people assume it’s the same shit, but it’s completely different and it shows when you buy a consumer off the shelf display and put it in production.

    Ottomateeverything ,

    I have no experience with them, but FYI a bunch of people were recommending sceptre for dumb TVs in other threads.

    teamevil ,

    They’re also brighter and don’t burn in as easily

    Seasoned_Greetings ,

    I’ve heard that if you want a dumb TV, you buy a smart TV with input priority on the hdmi and never connect to the internet.

    How accurate is that?

    I wouldn’t know, as I’ve been blessed with a couple of dumb tvs from the golden age of dumb tvs for the last 10 years.

    moody ,

    Some smart TVs need to be connected before they’ll even start.

    The key thing is to make sure you look into that stuff before you buy.

    My TV is from the before days, and when it dies I’m not sure what the plan will be. Possibly a large monitor at 3x the price.

    grue ,

    The key thing is to make sure you look into that stuff before you buy.

    Or better yet, buy it and then return it as defective, ideally repeatedly and gathering a whole bunch of other people to do the same en masse, until companies start losing so much money on this shit that they’re forced to be less shitty.

    Murdoc ,

    If only they weren’t so heavy…

    Spiralvortexisalie ,

    Found the youngster or missed a sarcasm tag. I remember a time when my 50 inch was considered leading class for weighing “only” 60 lbs, my tvs before that one all weighed over 100 lbs (CRTs). I literally unironically can throw most tvs upto 65 inches just over my shoulder, and if the boxes weren’t so awkwardly big I could carry a few at a time. TVs may be a lot things but not heavy, most 43 inch tvs are under 20 lbs now.

    natebluehooves ,

    My hisense google tv connected to an open wifi network and updated without being told to. The update broke CEC and hdmi arc. I cannot adequately express my rage at this moment.

    SpaceCowboy ,
    @SpaceCowboy@lemmy.ca avatar

    Can’t you plug in your computer into an HDMI port and simply not use the “smart” features?

    zalgotext ,

    In most cases, no. You have to use the built in “smart” software to change inputs.

    SpaceCowboy ,
    @SpaceCowboy@lemmy.ca avatar

    That sucks. I guess I gotta keep my TV running as long a possible then. It’s a smart TV, but I can change ports without the smart features. In fact the smart TV part of it is basically like another port, but I have set to use HDM1 as the default when starting up and I never have to look at the smart interface. TV is over 5 years old now, the smart interface probably runs like shit by now.

    Tja ,

    Yes, you absolutely can. Or you can use pihole to block ads/updates. Or you can use a raspberry pi with kodi. Or a streaming stick. Or you can use it normally.

    Just make sure you buy from a store with a return policy that let’s you test the TV for your use case. Which in the EU is any online retailer, for 14 days.

    Redjard ,
    @Redjard@lemmy.dbzer0.com avatar

    There are tvs that wait a month before giving you a big manually dismissed popup about not being connected to the internet.

    CrayonRosary ,

    Sceptre makes dumb TVs.

    RaoulDook ,

    They are pretty decent too, for the price

    RecallMadness ,

    You can (or at least could) put Bravia TVs into “pro mode” and turn off all the shit.

    Tja ,

    So anybody who doesn’t have A FUCKING DESKTOP PC near their TV is a Neanderthal?

    I have a smart TV from 2019 and it runs perfectly fine, it’s snappy and convenient. Switching inputs requires 2 button presses (3 if you don’t want to wait 3 seconds to auto-switch to the selected one) or I can automate it with home assistant for a “movie watching” scene for instance, for 0 button presses.

    Plus you seem to completely misunderstand what digital signage TV are.

    Fisch ,
    @Fisch@lemmy.ml avatar

    What I don’t get about smart TVs is why you can’t use it with your phone. That’s one of Kodi’s best features. You can just type using your phone keyboard. Typing with a TV remote is a fucking NIGHTMARE.

    SeaJ ,

    I have always opposed smart TVs. Most of my reasoning is because the UI is almost always dogshit slow because the hardware and software is thrown in as an afterthought. But I’ll add this to my reasoning for not getting a smart TV.

    A signage TV with a streaming stick/box is perfectly fine for what I need. Jellyfin does not care what I’m playing.

    Edit: Also, I did not even notice that there was no option to reject this. It is just a close button. There is no way this shit is enforceable.

    BothsidesistFraud ,

    I haven’t looked into it, but there’s got to be some open source firmware for a lot of these TVs, right? To improve the UI and remove all spyware and bloatware?

    phoneymouse ,

    I don’t connect my TV to the internet. Problem solved.

    Wrench ,

    I used to develop smart TV apps.

    I still only own dumb TVs. I do not need that bloat.

    Iamdanno ,

    They are better, but you foolishly assumed that they meant better for the consumer, not better for the seller.

    grue ,

    The worst part is that all these Smart TVs run Linux, whose GPL license was explicitly designed to prevent this sort of user-hostile bullshit. Unfortunately, because the Linux contributors decided to stick with version 2 of the license instead of converting to version 3, it’s stuck with a loophole that allows companies to get away with this abuse.

    It’s a goddamned travesty.

    tabular , (edited )
    @tabular@lemmy.world avatar

    The GPL ensures user software freedom for us to remove this crap by requiring them to share their source code. Using Linux doesn’t mean they have to follow the GPL unless they make modifications to it.

    You need every software contributors to agree to a license change unless the license gives an upgrade option. Most contributors had no choice but to use GPLv2 as it wasn’t “GPLv2-or-later” to start with, maybe it was posdible at one point but they didn’t want to anyway.

    grue ,

    The GPL ensures user software freedom for us to remove this crap by requiring them to share their source code. Using Linux doesn’t mean they have to follow the GPL unless they make modifications to it.

    That’s not quite the issue.

    First of all, the GPL requires you to make the source available if you distribute the software, whether you modify it or not. And in fact TV manufacturers do provide source code, if you dig through their websites to find the disused basement lavatory with the sign saying “beware of the leopard.”

    Second, the issue is that the source code isn’t actually going to work if you try to compile it and install it on the device, because they have DRM to prevent anything other than what the manufacturer has cryptographically signed from being allowed to run. See also: Tivoization.

    tabular ,
    @tabular@lemmy.world avatar

    That’s correct. My response was intended to point out proprietary software can run on Linux and GPL doesn’t apply.

    I have read arguments in favor of GPL v2 over v3 and found them unconvincing.

    KingThrillgore ,
    @KingThrillgore@lemmy.ml avatar

    Linux will never go to GPLv3 because Linus is pussywhipped by the Foundation and it’s sponsors

    mods_are_assholes ,

    There is nothing so pure and good that rampant greed can’t ruin it.

    Mango ,

    Always was. Just took a little time for the reasons to be apparent to more people.

    dgriffith ,

    Send them a letter via registered mail stating that upon receipt of said letter they waive their right to waive your rights.

    nonfuinoncuro ,

    That sounds like some sovereign citizen thing

    dgriffith ,

    Similar things have worked in countries that aren’t so under the thrall of the mighty corporation. I recall some guy in … Russia? who struck out and reworded a bunch of penalty clauses for a credit card offer he got and mailed it back to the bank, which accepted it and issued the card. Cue much hilarity as he racked up a bunch of charges and then got it thrown out in court. (Actually, here’s a link.. They eventually settled out of court for an undisclosed sum.)

    Anyway, I live in Australia so my response to all these kinds of attempts at removal of my consumer rights is a drawn out “yeah, nahhhh”

    sverit ,

    Uno reverse card

    Brkdncr ,

    community.roku.com/t5/…/950649

    Toes ,

    I think you’re qualified for a full refund in most regions if you disagree with the new terms.

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