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S.F. bakery won't serve cops, police union claims. Store says it's about the guns, not the cops

San Francisco’s police union says a city bakery chain has a “bigoted” policy of not serving uniformed cops.

The San Francisco Police Officers Assn. wrote in a social media post last week that Reem’s California “will not serve anyone armed and in uniform” and that includes “members of the U.S. Military.” The union is demanding that the chain “own” its policy.

Reem’s says, however, its policy isn’t against serving armed police officers. It’s against allowing guns inside its businesses.

elscallr ,
@elscallr@lemmy.world avatar

It’s wholly within their rights to refuse service to anyone for any reason. I hope they stick to their… well, I guess “stick to their guns” doesn’t really work here but whatever.

dogslayeggs ,

If they are a public facing business, they are not within their rights to refuse service to anyone for any reason. There are protected classes, like age/race/sexuality. So if you own a business like a coffee shop, you can’t say “no black people.” However, police and guns are not protected classes, so I think they should be in the clear legally.

ZzyzxRoad ,

What happened to the supreme court cases that said it’s ok to discriminate against protected classes as long as it just so happens to be “against your religion”

visak ,

“against your Christian religion”. Fixed that for you.

dogslayeggs ,

The Supreme Court decision was a very narrow decision based on how the commission treated the business owner, not a broad decision on free exercise vs protected class.

en.wikipedia.org/…/Masterpiece_Cakeshop_v._Colora…

visak ,

Of course. They’re patient. They chipped away at abortion for decades before finally getting it overturned in Dobbs.

Similarly they went from Masterpiece Cake Shop to the Creative LLC case which widened the exception further because it’s a “creative endeavor”. Don’t for a minute think they’re not queing up a case to deny medical services based on a “sincerely held religious beliefs”.

felixthecat ,

Unfortunately that isn't true. Businesses have a right to refuse service for a wide variety of reasons. Like you said though those protected classes are illegal to discriminate against.

That is why you can have rules, like "no shirt no shoes no service". So in this case it is if you bring a gun you will be asked to leave.

Although now if that store was ever a victim of a robbery I would bet the response time is very slow....

CileTheSane ,
@CileTheSane@lemmy.ca avatar

Although now if that store was ever a victim of a robbery I would bet the response time is very slow…

So you’re saying people who become cops aren’t interested in the public good and are more interested in power?

raptir ,

Well I never!

Wogi ,

Nooo I’m sure the police are very honorable men and women who would never retaliate against anyone for any reason.

They would certainly never accept bribes for any reason, or destroy evidence, or beblatantly racist.

No no no these are honorable men

Imotali ,
@Imotali@lemmy.world avatar

Fun fact, if they can prove the police deliberately delayed their response that’s a massive lawsuit.

Wrincewind ,

If.

ArcaneSlime ,

Biggest if.

elscallr ,
@elscallr@lemmy.world avatar

You still gotta convince the city and then who are you really hurting? If the cops had to pay lawsuits out of the FOP pension fund maybe that would matter. If you sue the city you’re only hurting your neighbors and yourself.

orclev ,

Payments for those things shouldn’t come out of public funds, cops should individually be required to carry malpractice insurance. Cop gets found guilty of violating someones rights? Settlement gets paid by their insurance. I bet you’d see all those “bad apples” suddenly being utterly unemployable once they literally can’t find anyone willing to insure their scumbag asses.

elscallr ,
@elscallr@lemmy.world avatar

Forcing cops to carry the equivalent of malpractice insurance would be a great step.

elscallr ,
@elscallr@lemmy.world avatar

It’s not like police departments give a shit about robbery anyway. They take a report and tell you to call insurance. Better off with a guy with a gun.

Drivebyhaiku ,

Also the distinction is “no uniforms, no guns” off duty police are still served. It’s actually a little closer to “no shoes, no shirt, no service”.

As listed in the article some of the employees and regular customers come from war-torn places or have histories of traumatic interactions with police. Hence the ban comes from a place of limiting PTSD reactions.

RizzRustbolt ,

“Stick to their buns” I guess?

ZzyzxRoad ,

If cops want the bakery to “own” their policy, they they should own their policy of racial profiling

SeaJ ,

Let’s be honest, this is absolutely directed at police. Sure, it bans all people with guns but 99% of the people coming in there with them will be the police.

That said, they are free to do that. I think it is a little shitty but that’s up to them.

postmateDumbass ,

Just waiting for an entrepreneur to set up a table and operate a gun check service.

Its_not_Dave ,

I’m sure police would be very comfortable giving their gun to a stranger for money instead of putting it in their trunk.

postmateDumbass ,

The trunk you say…

SeaJ ,

“Just hand your service weapon over to me, officer, and you can head right in. That will be one dollarbuck.”

gianni ,
@gianni@lemmy.ca avatar

As a non-American trying to understand, why do you feel this policy is a little shitty?

uis ,
@uis@lemmy.world avatar

Well, if you are not from America you can look at Russian police, that beats protesting students, pregnant mothers and kills jogging programmers. And all of this in the Moscow, I’m not even saying what happens in regions.

gianni ,
@gianni@lemmy.ca avatar

What does that have to do with an American bakery’s gun policy?

uis ,
@uis@lemmy.world avatar

What does perception of police to do with an American bakery’s gun policy?

obinice ,
@obinice@lemmy.world avatar

Besides US cops doing all of that and worse on a depressingly regular basis, what does Russian police behaviour have to do with the decision to ban guns in a shop in the US?

I don’t want anybody bringing a weapon into my business either, especially guns as they’re the most wildly dangerous kind, and I don’t care who is carrying it. Cops are as likely to kick off and shoot someone as the next person, better to keep all weapons far, far away from my business.

If you’re a cop and you want to buy something from my business, you’re perfectly welcome, but you’ll have to leave your gun somewhere else.

uis ,
@uis@lemmy.world avatar

Besides US cops doing all of that and worse on a depressingly regular basis, what does Russian police behaviour have to do with the decision to ban guns in a shop in the US?

I was answering why police perceived shitty, but you answered it better and in US context.

TopRamenBinLaden ,

I am not a gun nut or anything, but I’m pretty sure those signs are useless. Not only do most people conceal carry, but any robber or shooter coming to your business to actually use a weapon is not going to be deterred by a no guns allowed sign.

It may stop one or two open carry dummies from using your business. Also, cops, obviously. That might be enough of a reason to put the sign up, still. I’d probably just put up a no cops allowed sign.

Wogi ,

ACAB

Fhek ,

SF recently allowed concealed carry.

deadbeef79000 ,

“Sorry Madam/Sir, I assume you have a weapon on your person. That is against our policy. We cannot serve you. Please leave the premises.”

MSids ,

Police are a little shitty, but that’s up to them too.

Lightor ,

I mean, maybe it’s just me but I don’t like to make sweeping statements about large groups of people. I get it’s the thing to do, shit on cops, but all it does is make the few good ones callus and bitter and turn bad. I’ve seen this with a friend on the force first hand. Most seem like asses TBH but mindsets like this turn the rest who are good shitty too. They feel like everyone hates them but the other asshole cops, so guess what they become…

Croquette ,

That’s a piss poor take. When good cops tell on bad cops, they get kicked out of the force and the PD harass them. There’s been countless cases of that. The institution is rotten to the core and any person that stays in that long enough becomes rotten.

DrDeadCrash ,

This is what people need to understand and accept as reality.

explodes ,

Both can be true.

Lightor ,

Ok, and I think yours is a piss poor take. Someone can want to do good and try to make a difference. You’re saying no one ever can so let’s just demonize the lot. Change doesn’t happen that way.

Croquette ,

At one point, the system is so rotten that it needs to be reconstructed from the ground up.

As we’ve seen with so many PDs, corruption is rampant and the PDs actively discourage going against the club.

Any change proposed to reign in the PDs is met with extreme resistance.

And that’s not mentioning that many PDs have close ties to racist groups.

I get that some people enter to make a difference, but those that really do want to change the police for the better get chewed out by their own. The other that stay turn a blind eye and are not really trying to make a difference anymore

There is no goodwill coming from PDs. Always some dumb platitudes with no real changes.

Lightor ,

You seem to be trying to convince me that the system is broken, I already agree with that. But you’re claiming to know exactly how everything plays out when a person tries to be a good cop. You claim to know exactly how that goes, every time. What makes you so confident, what information do you have? We’re you a cop?

I’m saying there is still the possibility for a cop to join and want to do good. Hate cops all you want, but a few have done good things, a few have helped people. We need to go after bad cops, of course, and try to fix the broken system. But at the same time we can’t ignore the ones who actually do good, that behavior should be encouraged, not shat on.

dustyData ,

That’s a broken apologist argument. It’s not “a couple of bad cops”, the problem is systemic. The system is meant to create assholes and protect assholes and to drive out anyone who isn’t an asshole. Blue line and all that. There are no good or bad cops, there are only perpetrators and enablers.

Lightor ,

I never said a couple of bad cops, I actually called out that the good ones are the minority. This is the problem, people view something complex like this as black and white when it isn’t.

SamboT ,

There are people who agree with you who don’t have the patience to deal with militant teens. Thanks for commenting some sanity.

Lightor ,

Yeah I’m dealing with it right now. It’s easier to hate than it is to understand.

negativeyoda ,

If they’re good people… they wouldn’t be cops. You have to compromise being a good person every day to remain there

I know plenty of ex cops who were chased out or quit in disgust. The system is rotten

Lightor ,

Yes, but good people are needed to fix it. And attacking that good people turns them sour.

Listen I think the system is broken, but if someone is trying to make a change from the inside, they would need to be a cop to do that.

RIPandTERROR ,
@RIPandTERROR@lemmy.blahaj.zone avatar

… no such thing as a good cop

MedicPigBabySaver ,

Cops are massively shitty.

CaptainAniki ,

It’s not shitty at all. What a stupid sentiment to hold.

normalize rejecting pigs.

reverendsteveii ,

Well here’s one civil right the cops can’t easily ignore. If an undercover buys a donut is that covered by qualified immunity?

Drivebyhaiku ,

It would not be required as off duty cops or non-visble ones are allowed. The ban is only on uniforms and guns which makes sense given thw article states some of the employees and regular clientele come from war torn places or have PTSD triggers around uniformed officers.

Tarkcanis ,

So fucking what? Police aren’t a protected class.

MyPornAlt ,

They’re about to be.

Aux ,

They’re a minority of the population so they should be.

Saurok ,

Except it’s a job not an innate, unchangeable characteristic… I honestly can’t tell if you’re serious or not.

Aux ,

Too bad for you.

stoicmaverick ,

So are pedophiles, what’s your point?

Aux ,

That’s the point!

VikingHippie ,

That’s not how it works. They’re not an oppressed minority, they’re the oppressive tool of the political and economic elite.

Aux ,

Muricans and their lack of understanding irony and satire… Oh wow…

VikingHippie ,

I’m actually not American and you didn’t make it at all obvious to a bunch of complete strangers that you were being sarcastic rather than an idiot 🤷

SpezCanLigmaBalls ,
@SpezCanLigmaBalls@lemmy.world avatar

Those type of people would rather blame it on others than themselves at all times

VikingHippie ,

Yup. I have a younger brother who’s like that. Gets pretty damn exhausting tbh…

SpezCanLigmaBalls ,
@SpezCanLigmaBalls@lemmy.world avatar

Got an older one like that. But it reflects on his personality as a whole. He’s always a victim and yeah… I could go on but I agree. It’s exhausting

CADmonkey ,

My job that I chose is a minority of the population too, where is my special treatment?

RizzRustbolt ,

Scanner monkey?

smellythief ,

We’re all a protected class. Yay!!

VikingHippie ,

They’re certainly not a protecTIVE class either.

Baldurs Gate 3 spoiler warning

Early Act 1 spoilerThey’re like Anders, the guy who pretends to be a paladin of Tyr, the god of justice, but is actually the willing servant of an arch-devil

WaterChi ,

To be fair, SCOTUS says they don’t have to protect anyone.

VikingHippie ,

To be even more fair though, not having to “serve and protect” like they lie about on their cars is not the same thing as not being ALLOWED TO.

They COULD choose to be decent humans who try to use their position of power to help people because it’s the right thing to do rather than an obligation, but of course, that’s not how a cop brain works.

Also, to be slightly less fair but no less truthful, the current scotus makes a mockery of the very concept of justice and most of them should be recalled and prosecuted for gross corruption.

bhamlin ,

If you didn’t want to be a bastard, you shouldn’t have been a cop.

smattering82 ,

In a city where you can’t park your car in the street without the window being smashed or have a business without having homeless harass your customers I thought that you might want to be nice to the cops but I guess I am wrong.

reverendsteveii ,

Assuming you’re speaking from loved experience and not what you heard on Fox News, what do the cops actually do about any of that? They might mosey along and murder the homeless person eventually but they’re not gonna stop someone from smashing your window. Most likely case is they just won’t respond at all.

smattering82 ,

Do you live in SF? Everyone I talk to thst lives there tells me that’s how it is. I don’t watch Fox News you can’t deny that city is in a crisis. I think the police as a institution needs a overhaul but you don’t do that by squeezing them out or spitting at them. That will only guarantee you get the wrong people applying for the job.

HawlSera ,

Hey now, cops aren’t all bad. I mean 60% of police wouldn’t be caught beating their wives.

Madison420 ,

60% of chips didn’t admit to it, that 40% was a self reported number so 40% were dumb enough to see “do you beat your spouse” and went "uhh duh…yep, everyday!

HawlSera , (edited )

Congratulations, you found the joke behind me choosing such a specific wording.

Here is a fun fact, they actually ruled that it is constitutional for a police officer to have IQ requirements in hiring out of concern that someone who did not meet the requirement would not obey orders or may have questions about certain orders.

This sounds reasonable except I’m not talking about the IQ being too low, I’m talking about the IQ being too high, some departments will actually limit people from being police officers if they test too high on an aptitude test.

xtremeownage ,

No military eh?

Guess I won’t be eating there.

Also, with very few exceptions… you won’t find armed military people walking around in the civilian area… so, the rule against armed people is illegitimate here.

scbasteve7 ,

The cop said that their policy is to not serve uniformed military, not the bakery. The bakery claims it has nothing to do with being a uniformed officer or military personal, they just dont allow firearms in the building.

AEsheron ,

I mean, it shouldn’t be an issue then. The point is they won’t allow armed people in, no matter why they’re armed. They don’t care if you’re a cop or military off duty with no weapons. This is just the union trying to spin it as anti-military/cop. I bet you anything the questions went something like

Nobody armed?

Nope.

Not even military?

Yup.

If you want to wear a little tinfoil, one might suspect they asked it like that just for the excuse to paint them as such.

100 ,

99% of military walking around are not armed, in fact it would be particularly odd to see anyone but military police walking around armed. Like to the point if I saw that I’d call the military police. Especially off base.

I’m military and I support the decision to not serve us in uniform. I think it’s probably a little misguided since most of us are office drones same as anyone else, but it’s his store and I wasn’t born in the military, it was my choice* to join.

*I wanted healthcare and to pay for college.

CaptainAniki ,

Military NEVER, and I mean fucking NEVER take service weapons off base unless they are going to fucking WAR.

xtremeownage ,

Yup. That’s basically what I was trying to say.

Not_mikey ,

For some more context this place, reems, really isn’t a bakery so much as a middle eastern take out place. The main store is currently closed down though so the only place they have open is a counter serve food court style place in the ferry building, so the cops didn’t get kicked out of the place, they either went to the counter and the cashier refused to serve, or more likely, they saw the new policy online and threw a hissy fit without actually going.

The founder is a Palestinian leftist, so this probably was targeted towards cops/military.

I’d highly recommend going here if your on a tourist trip and end up in the ferry building, not just for the cop hate, but there wraps are great as well.

deadbeef79000 ,

Oh no. A leftist!

VikingHippie , (edited )

Yeah, we’re so damn scary!

  • Sincerely, leftist pacifist
CaptainAniki ,

Why are you a pacifist? All rights are won through violence.

VikingHippie , (edited )

Because I don’t believe that might makes right. I believe that we can be better than our primitive and murderous ancestors and we owe it to each other to at least try.

As for your assertion on the origins of rights, that’s absolute bullshit. The vast majority of worker’s and other civil rights have been won via peaceful protest.

You’ve actually got it backwards: TAKING AWAY rights always happens through violence. That’s what it’s for: enforcing your will on those you are unable or unwilling to convince by civilized means.

jdsquared ,

Can you actually name which rights we’ve won via peaceful protests?

Naura ,

I will not fight for Starfleet, but I will defend its ideals. Pacifism is not pacivity. It’s the active protection of all living things in the natural universe.

~Hemmer

VikingHippie ,

deleted_by_author

    •
    AngryCommieKender ,

    I was with you right up until this historical revisionism. I’m a Baha’i and we are pacifists. But. If there is a threat to the community, we will start with words and diplomacy, and will end where we need to, to ensure the unity and safety of our communities.

    VikingHippie ,

    Yeah… Reading that back, I got a little carried away into exaggeration and absolutism lol, my bad!

    hypelightfly ,

    This is so disingenuous.

    cnut ,

    Can you get to your real point? What do you want?

    AngryCommieKender ,

    Ghandi is the only one that comes to mind. And in Bill Wurtz’s “The History of everything, I guess” video he even says “wait, that worked?!?”

    That would be the right for the Indian people to self govern.

    VentraSqwal ,

    Someone correct me if I’m wrong, but since I’ve never heard of a Jamaican Revolution, so I’m guessing they also won their independence without bloodshed.

    LGBTQ rights I feel like have made huge strides without violence. There was the Stonewall riots, of course, but since then most of the rights have been achieved mostly through normalization and exposure through pop culture and stuff like that. Of course, some people are trying to rewind those, but conservatives are like that with all rights that aren’t specifically for white men.

    aspensmonster ,
    @aspensmonster@lemmygrad.ml avatar

    Sincerely, leftist pacifist

    Why are you a pacifist? All rights are won through violence.

    As for your assertion on the origins of rights, that’s absolute bullshit. The vast majority of worker’s and other civil rights have been won via peaceful protest.

    The history of society is the history of class struggle. Those rights were earned through struggle, not through asking nicely.

    VikingHippie ,

    By peaceful protest I didn’t mean asking nicely. I meant being loud, getting in the way, generally making life miserable for the oppressors until they give in without sinking to their level.

    Non-violent is a much better term for it tbh, should have used that instead.

    BonesOfTheMoon ,

    Good, normalize rejecting cops.

    smattering82 , (edited )

    Bring on the down votes but my opinion is this will only make things worse. I think people should judge the police on a officer to officer basis. I work in public service and the majority of cops are really decent people who are trying to help. There are always bad seeds. Even if a cop is on a power trip if you ask them they will help you.

    In my opinion the biggest problem w the police isn’t the officers it’s the training and culture. They have their hands tied w ridiculous use of force policies and almost no training. But bring on the hate and call me a fascist.

    Edit: biblical service to public service. Jesus has no place in these streets.

    BonesOfTheMoon ,

    It’s fine to have a different opinion and you shouldn’t be downvoted. If you’ve had that experience of them it’s perfectly valid. There’s just a lot of cops who are secret white supremacists who get outed routinely and that’s genuinely scary. Cops should get a lot more education than they do in the US.

    smattering82 ,

    I 100% agree I have met and delt with so many really shitty cops in my own time. Then factor in the 1% that are real monsters and I understand the way people feel. I train Jiu Jitsu with some amazing cops that are really trying to be better for their community and themselves. I am just defensive after reading all the comments.

    Olgratin_Magmatoe ,

    Then factor in the 1% that are real monsters and I understand the way people feel.

    …temple.edu/…/do-40-of-police-families-experience…

    smattering82 ,

    Again preaching to the choir over worked and riddled w PTSD obviously the result is domestic violence and other unsafe behaviors. I mean the 1% monsters like this fellow. www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-44402948

    Olgratin_Magmatoe ,

    It’s only 1% when you ignore the domestic violence.

    smattering82 ,

    1% monsters like Jenkins 40% that beat their families can and should fuck themselves. I am referring to the corruption and actively destroying the communities they work in not just home life.

    hydrospanner ,

    “It’s only 1% because I’m very specifically framing my world view in a way that I feel justified in cropping domestic abusers out of the picture of bad actors.”

    smattering82 ,

    I am not saying 99% are upstanding the 40% that abuse their families are monster. I am saying the 1% that are corrupt at work and using their power for personal gains.

    mothersprotege ,

    Even if only 1% of cops fall into that category, the percentage of cops that support and enable that behavior is much larger. Police unions routinely defend and endorse bad actors, and reinforce and propagate toxic warrior cop culture. The whole damn tree is infected, and needs serious reform. Unless and until that happens, ACAB is the best rule of thumb.

    solstice ,

    It’s hard for me to judge them individually cop to cop because literally EVERY.SINGLE.ENCOUNTER I have EVER had with a cop has been a negative experience at best. Every single one. I’m not going to hate on you or call you fascist. Just pointing out it’s like saying I’ve never met THIS wasp before, maybe I shouldn’t judge it unless it stings me! Then surprise motherfucker you got stung, whodathunkit.

    even if a cop is on a power trip if you ask them they will help you

    Fucking bullshit, sorry but not sorry, but you’re delusional man. And I’m a 40yo professional white guy in the suburbs! My god, I can’t even imagine being black from the hood.

    smattering82 ,

    From one white suburban 40 year old to another I understand what you’re saying and as I said before I have met plenty of wasps. I guess what I am trying to get across is that blanket hate for cops isn’t the answer. It’s a very hard job that they are not trained to do and it does attract assholes. But every encounter I have with a cop I start out just being friendly and the majority of the time they are friendly back. Also well aware of my white 6’2” privilege when dealing with them.

    Olgratin_Magmatoe ,

    But every encounter I have with a cop I start out just being friendly

    white suburban 40 year old

    Sounds like survivorship bias.

    Soulg ,

    Hard to really have a conversation about it when this is how it goes every time.

    smattering82 ,

    White suburban 40 year old that works public service in mixed cities with large populations of poor black white and Latino communities so I don’t live in a bubble. Most cops I work alongside seem to treat decent people decently. Again there have been some bad apples but it’s a work in progress.

    Olgratin_Magmatoe ,

    I think you’ve misunderstood what I meant. You are a white, suburban 40 year old. Your demographic does not get targeted with police brutality, so it’s no surprise that cops treat you well. It’s a form of bias called survivorship bias.

    smattering82 ,

    No I understood what you said and I agree with you. I am aware that I get treated differently. However I have noticed that a lot of the younger cops that I see interact with minority populations much better than older “salty” cops and they gives me hope. There are real assholes too, my hope is things get better. Because I see the cops treat scumbag white people the same way they treat scumbag black people.

    orclev ,

    Again there have been some bad apples

    Finish that phrase. Here, I’ll start it for you “A few bad apples ruin…”. Any time someone uses the phrase “a few bad apples” and then can’t point to where those bad apples have been purged with extreme prejudice, they’re just illustrating how broken things are and why police need to be abolished and replaced in-mass with a new police force that’s designed for actually helping people with proper checks in place to permanently and aggressively deal with those that abuse their positions.

    The tradeoff for police getting special powers should be that when they use those powers to violate peoples rights, the weight of the law should come down on them like a ton of bricks. If a cop commits a crime, they should have a MINIMUM of 10 times the sentence a non-cop would get. Cop assaults someone and that’s normally 6 months in jail? Cop should get 5 years in jail. Cop murders someone and normally you’d get 5 years? Cop gets 50 years. If there were extremely harsh punishments cops would be a hell of a lot less likely to abuse their positions. You also need to fix the incestuous relationship between police and prosecutors. There should be an independent department purely dedicated to arresting and prosecuting police for crimes.

    smattering82 ,

    I like the idea of a new police force but what you are describing sounds like inanity. You had me until you make the punishments 10x the crime. What happens when someone make a honest mistake? Because they had a off day their lives are ruined. Even in this fantasy where the constitution no longer exists who would sign up for that job? You will have to pay $500k a year and have genius lawyer monks doing the job.

    orclev ,

    That’s the risk you take on when you’re given powers nobody else in our society has. Police can literally kill people on purpose, something that nobody else is allowed to do. Police can imprison or detain people, once again something nobody else is allowed to do. Police can take your property, once again, something nobody else can do. They can invade your privacy, and even though there are some checks on that power they’re extremely limited. Every time an officer decides to exercise their powers to violate someones rights, whether they’re justified in doing it or not, should be a weighty decision that comes with heavy consequences if they choose wrong. If a cop is worried about being punished he could always take the safe approach of you know, just not violating someones rights. You’d see a hell of a lot fewer instances of cops immediately going for their gun as their first last and final solution to literally all problems if getting that wrong actually had dire consequences for them instead of just some annoying paperwork and having to sit through interviews.

    Stegget ,

    If I have an off day at work, someone gets the wrong email. If a cop has an off day at work, someone’s dad gets killed. Do you not believe LEOs should be held to a higher standard of accountability? Anyone given the power to kill on behalf of the state should be held to a higher standard than the general population.

    smattering82 ,

    Even if I did believe that was a good thing it’s against the constitution to have 2 separate punishments. That said I think cops who fuck up should be tried in court like any other citizen. If you want change go apply to a department.

    Stegget ,

    If you actually think police will change their ways of their own volition you’re truly living in a different reality. Change will come to law enforcement from the outside, not from within; they’re too entrenched in their avenues of power and abuse to have any interest in legitimate reform.

    AngryCommieKender ,

    Unless and until they start following section 1983 of the federal code, as was written and passed by Congress not as was illegally revised in 1874 by one person that had no authority to do so, they are all criminals and deserve nothing but scorn.

    This only applies to the thugs with badges in the US. It may not apply to your utopian police department.

    smattering82 ,

    So you won’t call them if someone steals your car or assaults you?

    orclev ,

    Hell no, that’s only going to make things worse. First police won’t do anything if something is stolen, so that’s just wasting your time. As for assaulting you, there’s a good chance that’s going to end up with the cop beating you up instead. You’re better off asking for help from some random passer by, there’s a better chance they’ll actually help. If my house is on fire I’ll call the fire department. If I’m having a medical emergency I’ll call an ambulance. If crime of some kind is happening you deal with it yourself because the cops will either do nothing or make it worse.

    solstice ,

    Yes seriously, only thing cops are good for is the paper trail for insurance. Call them while you’re being assaulted and they’ll probably just join in the fray.

    constantokra ,

    You need to talk to some other people about their experiences with cops. I look like you, but i’m autistic, so I can’t act like you. Police constantly think i’m lying/hiding something/acting guilty because they’re taught to interpret the way I interact because of a developmental disorder as criminal behavior. Then, if they push us into a meltdown by intimidating the hell out of us, because they assume we’re criminals, we get beaten and arrested or shot.

    You seriously need to think more about how your position in life and outward appearance actually affects the way the world interacts with you. Things aren’t just harder for some people. They’re completely different, and these institutions are supposed to exist for all of us. f you understood what it was like to interact with the police as an autistic man or a black man, you would not be defending the police.

    smattering82 ,

    That sucks man and I hate that that happens to you. I am not beating my chest for every cop but not all are animals and until people stop being awful to each other they are needed. I try to de escalate every scene I am on when I feel the cops are being assholes. Their job is almost impossible and unfortunately it attracts douche bags but also there are some great cops.

    SaakoPaahtaa ,

    Not everyone lives in the US. I’ve been working with coppers my whole adult life and have had one bad experience. They’re good people.

    smattering82 ,

    Unless you think every cop is a nazi then you get downvoted to hell… feels like old Reddit… good to be home.

    abraxas ,

    Watch some Police Audit videos. About one out of 10, a cop does something spectacularly good (or at least not horrible). Once, they even arrested another cop on the scene because the other cop crossed from “merely bullying” to outright criminal behavior.

    The other 9 out of 10 are disgusting and disappointing. So your view of them sure isn’t far off reality.

    solstice ,

    Too little too late.

    pozbo ,
    @pozbo@lemmy.world avatar

    You know every time I’ve had something stolen and filed a police report I have not even once had my stolen shit returned. They don’t even call back after weeks to say “hey we didn’t care enough to follow any leads, good luck”.

    And yet they take every fucking chance they can to write my as many moving violations as possible, whether or not they apply.

    The police don’t serve the people, never have.

    smattering82 ,

    That’s on the system not the individual officer.

    MajorJimmy ,

    Fuck the officer for going along with it. They can quit and find a different job that doesn’t make them out to be a piece of shit like the rest of us. Nobody forces them to become a cop, but by choosing to become one, they’ve branded themselves as part of that fucked up system. That’s on them. ACAB

    smattering82 ,

    Cool let’s not have cops

    abraxas ,

    Considering studies show dollar-for-dollar we can effectively do what good police do by putting their budget money in other services (mental health, welfare, etc), I’m ok with having a LOT fewer cops with a lot more limited mandate.

    smattering82 ,

    So this way not only will petty crimes not get solved but the bigger crimes will also go unsolved.

    abraxas ,

    Honestly, I’m not super married to the idea of “solving” crimes. I would rather prevent 1 crime than solve 2. The idea that solving crimes is more important than preventing them only works for the punitive model of justice, one that I do not ascribe to.

    If we could cut the crime rate 90%, but the people who committed crimes went free, I’d still strongly consider it.

    That’s despite the fact I don’t agree that big crimes wouldn’t get solved. Of over 650,000 police officers, only 10,000 are detectives, who are trained and tasked with solving crimes. That’s a LOT of cops that solve crimes for a living at all. They “keep peace”. Sometimes you DO need a cop to keep peace, when the most important thing is the presence of mitigating force. The rest of the time, a social worker is more effective.

    smattering82 ,

    What do you do for work, and how much time do you spend in depressed areas? I have seen babies shaken to death mothers cutting their wrists while their children are in the next room, people placing gasoline bombs in banks around town, a guy set his ex wife’s house on fire with her in it, a guy shot in the stomach for the cash in his register, a pregnant woman stabbed in the belly 9 times by a stalker abd Countless other awful things and for these reasons I am glad cops are working. Obviously there are douche bags. But the real world is really hard and at times evil. So without police and the idea of punishment I think it would be chaotic. There has to be a better way to deliver public safety and I am on board with it but for now it’s better than nothing.

    abraxas ,

    What do you do for work, and how much time do you spend in depressed areas?

    I grew up adjacent to two cities with some of the highest crime rates in the US. The one that went easier on the cops and heavier on local programs and improvements had its crime rate plummet. The one that doubled-down on policing still has a gang problem (and drug OD problem) today. The former had the higher crime rate, including a street that hit the top 10 deadliest streets in the country.

    As for what I do, immaterial. But I live with emergency workers, and they are saints who put their lives at risk every day. They also don’t like cops, but are afraid to say it because cops can fuck up their lives. Yes, sometimes they need cops for the direct prevention of a violent situation (see my point below), but as often the cops get in their way. They are required to obey a lawful order even when they’re doing their job, and sometimes that costs a patient’s life. Very often, accountability on that is more politics than justice.

    I have seen babies shaken to death mothers cutting their wrists while their children are in the next room, people placing gasoline bombs in banks around town, a guy set his ex wife’s house on fire with her in it, a guy shot in the stomach for the cash in his register, a pregnant woman stabbed in the belly 9 times by a stalker abd Countless other awful things and for these reasons I am glad cops are working

    How many of those didn’t happen because of the cops’ presence? The math (see below) says zero of them. If you could be confident that 50% defunding police and replacing them with social programs would cut the rate of those things substantially, what would your opinion be? More crime and more thugs to punish it, or less crime?

    I’d like to take note that everything you said in your last reply might be appropriate if I were some punk kid saying “let’s get rid of all the cops in the world” or somesuch. I’m saying let’s stop funding them beyond their need and stop trusting them to do the things they are not qualified for. Of all the horrible things you’ve seen, police still cause more deaths than they prevent, committing 5% of homicides themselves… while police budget and saturation does not have any detectable correlation to homicide figures. That means, $1 spent on policing causes a net increase to homicide rates.

    Again, that’s NOT saying those figures would stay the same if we cut 90% or 95% or 100% of police funding, but they sure as hell would if we cut 30% or 40%, and if we reallocated that into programs that DO solve those problems? We have those programs. They’re just underfunded by people who don’t think we deserve free mental healthcare, free food, etc. EVERY $1 that goes into welfare does more to cut crimes than $1 into police.

    smattering82 ,

    Never in my above posts did I say the police are perfect and nothing needs to change I too have had dealings with some real shit police. Even if you cut the budget in half you are going to have a really hard time funding and finding people like social workers that want to do that job at 3am. I am all for it though if it’s possible. I am getting crushed because I said not all cops are monsters I definitely think the system needs to change.

    abraxas ,

    I’m not sure you know what you’re arguing. You seemed to get really defensive when I said we should reduce the police. So I explained why it is smart to reduce the police.

    It’s a knee-jerk reaction for people who have experienced criminal behavior to want more police and harsher sentencing. Often times it helps to shake them out of it to discuss efficacy. To ask “what if more police and harsher sentencing doesn’t work, or has the opposite effect?” Ultimately, you seem to want the same thing as me - less crime, less violent crime. So why not support things that are more likely to work over things that are less likely to work?

    Even if you cut the budget in half you are going to have a really hard time funding and finding people like social workers that want to do that job at 3am.

    You’re not going to have a hard time finding/training social workers, and they tend to make less than half of what police officers do in most states. They actually spiked really high unemployment rates a few times, and the low demand and low wages of social work is the only thing keeping people from pivoting to that field. You are right about one thing. Social workers are actually required to be properly trained, unlike police (who often don’t even know the law they’re supposedly enforcing). But I guarantee if the funding showed up, the workers would as well.

    There is a part 2 to that of course. There are a lot of people who would more readily spend $1b in police than $1m in social work because “poor people don’t deserve anything for free”. But you talked like you care about violent crimes not happening, and you aren’t getting that by maintaining the current huge police spend.

    I am getting crushed because I said not all cops are monsters I definitely think the system needs to change.

    I don’t like the term “crushed”. I expanded upon you saying “Cool let’s not have cops” with pointing out the value of changing from a police-oriented society to a solution-oriented society. Your points were:

    1. With fewer police, crime will go unsolved, to which I pointed out that only a tiny percent of police are tasked with solving crimes and pointing out that “solving crimes” means we failed to prevent those crimes from happening
    2. That you’ve seen horrible things, therefore we need to support police. To which I tried to dismantle that and show you that the police did not, and do not, prevent those horrible things from happening, including referencing (without citation I’m afraid. I was tired/lazy) studies that showed reduction in police funding does not actually increase crime rates.

    I’m sure other people are giving you more harsh replies, but I’m sticking to just the facts of the situation. In most (but not all) situations, the need for police represents failure by society to do something, something they could have done cheaper without the police. The #1 such failure is insufficient welfare and safety nets, that benefit far more per-dollar to reduce crime than police ever will.

    A small “response” crew dealing with volitile situations like a domestic disturbance being escalated beyond the scope of a social worker, and a smaller “combat” crew dealing with things like hostage situations and ultra-high-risk situations… that’s mostly all the police need/do that could effectively protect us. Hell, you don’t even need a guy with a gun to handle most common infractions like DUIs.

    smattering82 ,

    I’m not sure you know what I am arguing I never said I want more police or harsher sentences this is arguing in a vacuum all I said in most of these replies was it’s counter productive to not allow police in your restaurant.

    I am a huge advocate for social programs and I think it’s criminal that they are the first to go when the budget gets tight. I would love to see more social workers on scene but you are still going to want a cop there if the person get violent.

    As for the police budget I would love to see it spent on useful training instead of tanks for barricaded suspects that never gets used.

    Those cops making more than social workers are doing that with overtime on road jobs or filling vacant shifts. Any cop or firefighter making $150k a year is living at work.

    I am sure not in a comment section this conversation would go a lot smoother.

    Ulrich_the_Old ,

    How many of the “good cops” turn in the bad cops? Oh none you say… Well you might want to do a recount of good cops then.

    smattering82 ,

    When did I say none?

    Colorcodedresistor ,

    deleted_by_author

    •
    orclev ,

    So you’re saying the system is broken? Well, that sounds like something we can agree on then. The police force is broken, needs to be torn down back to its foundations and rebuilt. Every time something happens with police you always get the same response “It’s just a few bad apples”, conveniently leaving out the rest of that phrase “that ruin the bunch”. Well, those bad apples have been left too long, and it ruined all of them. There are only two kinds of cops, the bad apples, and the ruined apples, both need to be thrown out. We need to abolish the current police and replace them with a uncorrupted version, the rot has set in too far in the existing police force, there’s no salvaging it.

    CertifiedBlackGuy ,

    Y’all remember when NYPD in its entirety said that old man fell during those protests a few years back?

    Then videos got released.

    Judging cops on a department by department basis saves paper ¯_(ツ)_/¯

    Colorcodedresistor ,

    deleted_by_author

    •
    smattering82 ,

    Damn you sure are painting with a broad brush. I have been replying to a lot of comments so if you read this reply in another comment sorry. I agree that the police need reform and I agree that it attracts a lot of the wrong type of people. I think their training is lacking in use of force and de escalation tactics. I think they should have more than 2 hrs a year of grappling training and a lot of departments are moving in the right direction.

    I am sorry you have only had dealings with asshole cops because I know a lot of really good ones. Have a great day.

    Colorcodedresistor ,

    deleted_by_author

    •
    smattering82 ,

    I agree with you there too the cops need another layer especially for behavioral or psychological calls. But that’s a training and budget issue. Also I have been to so many crisis intervention calls as a paramedic and was thankful the cops were there because they patted down the pt and they had either a gun or a knife on them. Every municipality is complaining about their budget so I wouldn’t hold your breath waiting for trained social workers thst want to respond to the shelter or nursing home at 4 am for the psych.

    Stegget ,

    Everyone knows a “good” cop. And every one of those good cops has covered up for a bad cop. Which, by default, means there are no “good” cops.

    Katana314 ,

    And then the corollary; Every so often, there’s a good cop that has stood up to their bad cop neighbors, calling them out publicly for evidence tampering and racial profiling. And then the union kicks them out - making them a good person, but no longer a good cop.

    They do their own filtering. Hence ACAB.

    VentraSqwal ,

    Even if a cop is on a power trip if you ask them they will help you.

    I was with you until about here. I’ve seen cops shoo away people in need rather than even deign to give directions. I would say the majority I’ve seen have been very unhelpful and the encounters that have been nice or cordial have been the extreme minority. It’s like their default is power trip mode.

    smattering82 ,

    Yea I was too broad there when I said that However in my own experience I have seen even SOME -asshole cops be helpful.

    chinpokomon ,

    I think that part of the problem with your response, not just biblical vs public service, is that it is a bias based on your own experience.

    Like the rest of us, the police are overworked, and it is reasonable to expect that they feel pressure to act and do, not to take time to reason and consider. For an office worker, they might get angry and have a short fuse. For an officer, that might have dire consequences.

    What purpose do the police serve? In my youth, they helped get baby kittens down from trees. The officer with the glowing smile would hand the kitten to the little girl who needed help. The highly legible and large typeface said “Cop gave cat.” Factual and warming.

    This isn’t the interaction I usually have and it isn’t the interaction I’ve heard others have. Was Timmy and Suzy’s Big Day wrong? Consider the difference between The Andy Griffith Show and Dragnet. It’s a big difference when you know the people you are there to “Protect and Serve,” but reality is considerably different for most.

    On the other side of things, you have folks that have been underprivileged from the crib. Social pressures indirectly, if not sometimes directly, perpetuate their plight. It instills anger and a general distrust.

    Now mix those groups together.

    Grouped by association is going to be the outcome unless people recognize their biases and actively try to work outside that. It means recognizing how your experience might not be shared amongst others. That’s all anyone is asking.

    smattering82 ,

    Yea man I typoed biblical it was supposed to be just public service I don’t believe in god or the Bible.

    Zhao ,

    Correct.

    hydrospanner ,

    I work in biblical service and the majority of cops are really decent people who are trying to help.

    Your inability to see your selection bias and account for it (while claiming to do just that) is beyond staggering.

    Like… you’re saying the words, but then your overall takeaway proves that despite what you’re saying, you have no concept of reality beyond your own lived experience and world view.

    I’m not in the ACAB/Defund camp either by any means, but you should either learn to truly acknowledge your bias (and not just pay it lip service), or just fucking own it and stop pretending to have a nuanced and enlightened opinion.

    Like…don’t try to make yourself sound like you’re speaking from any sort of well reasoned position that accounts for the limitations of personal experience and acknowledges the experience of others. Just say, “Hey, the vast majority of cops I’ve interacted with, I’ve had no problem with. Therefore I think most cops everywhere are decent people and the tiny fraction that aren’t are just an unfortunate and unavoidable, but ultimately acceptable exception that is worth it in exchange for the services police forces as a whole provide for society.”

    Because that’s literally what you’re saying.

    You’re a white guy working and interacting with these cops in a religiously charged setting that already puts you in familiar and friendly territory with them in terms of ideology, race, and gender. These are three huge factors that are all coloring the interaction, and given the closely intertwined threads of American right wing politics with police, religion, race, and gender, every single interaction you’ve had with them benefits from being on their side in all the major categories that matter. With that frame of reference, you cannot possibly (at least while maintaining intellectual honesty) use your own personal experience as being at all broadly representative of that of the average person in the general public.

    It’s like showing up to game day in the home team’s city wearing the home team’s colors and singing the home team’s fight song…and then the next day when you see a story about how many of those fans you met were harassing and assaulting fans of the other team, your response is, “Well I interacted with dozens of those fans and they were all really nice to me. Since I have real experience with them, that proves that they’re nice people who would never do those bad things. Must have just been 1% of bad apples. But overall, there’s no problem with bad fans since they were all nice to me.”

    Rilichu ,

    In my opinion the biggest problem w the police isn’t the officers it’s the training and culture.

    That’s sorta the point that people generally have issues with cops dude. It’s the overall culture of shielding of each other from consequences, stoking a “everyone is your enemy”/warrior mentality among officers, bad or lack of training leading to unneeded violent escalation etc.

    It’s been police departments dragging their heels and throwing tantrums on addressing these issues that have what caused people’s dislike of them to grow.

    abraxas ,

    I’ll throw my support behind cops who are standing up to the bullshit.

    But they are usually fired (or worse), which means the people I’m supporting… aren’t cops anymore

    smattering82 ,

    Yea I have been saying that the entire time and getting downvoted to hell. My opinion is one of the big problems are cops don’t think of themselves as part of the community so by kicking them out of restaurants will only make them feel like less of a part of the community. I am done responding to these comments everyone seems to be a expert lawyer and city planner that has extensive experience dealing w the public.

    zbyte64 ,
    @zbyte64@lemmy.blahaj.zone avatar

    I would say they don’t feel part of the community because they are the enforcement behind alienation under capitalism. If everyone has housing, security, fair trials, etc then people wouldn’t perceive them as part of an alienating force.

    Misconduct ,

    I work in biblical service

    Oh. Ok. Anyway, moving on.

    smattering82 ,

    It’s a typo I meant to write public service but I have been responding so much I can’t even find the comment to edit it.

    Misconduct ,

    Well, that’s easily one of the most unfortunate typos you could have made here lmao

    smattering82 ,

    Lol no shit RIP my comment karma too, feels like Reddit.

    PumaStoleMyBluff ,

    A good officer will have no problem respecting a bakery’s no-firearms policy.

    BeautifulMind ,
    @BeautifulMind@lemmy.world avatar

    my opinion is this (rejecting cops) will only make things worse.

    Giving them the benefit of the doubt because if you don’t they will punish you isn’t really giving them the benefit of the doubt, it is a backhanded acknowledgement that if they are not collectively appeased and given unwarranted grace, they will behave badly.

    That’s not an argument that they’re not bullies, it sounds like an acknowledgement that they’re bullies and it would be better to appease them

    30mag ,

    In my opinion the biggest problem w the police isn’t the officers it’s the training and culture.

    The biggest problem is the culture and a lack of accountability is part of the culture.

    They have their hands tied w ridiculous use of force policies

    You know why?

    en.wikipedia.org/…/2012_Empire_State_Building_sho…

    Nine bystanders were wounded by stray bullets fired by the officers

    smattering82 ,

    After the amadou diallo shooting the NYPD knee jerk response was to increase the trigger pull pressure of their pistols so it would be harder to pull the trigger. So instead of better training and use of force tactics they just made it harder to shoot. And that in turn makes it easier to miss and hit bystanders. A perfect example of the terrible policy to breeds bad cops.

    30mag ,

    Ridiculous use of force policies serve the purpose of reducing departmental liability without spending money.

    WaterChi ,

    I’ve walked out of a restaurant when 4 cops rolled in.

    Gigan ,
    @Gigan@lemmy.world avatar

    Sounds like a good target for a robbery, cause you know the police will take their time getting there.

    Aermis ,

    Sounds like we shouldn’t have those police.

    shiii ,

    A childish reaction I totally expect from this corrupt gang.

    4RYAZ ,

    deleted_by_moderator

    •
    rez_doggie ,

    Ostracize pigs they are a drain on society. Acab

    phej ,

    “Sorry, we don’t support that lifestyle”

    some_guy ,

    Thanks for the chuckle.

    prole ,

    Even if it were a policy against serving cops, didn’t the Supreme Court literally just rule that a business can deny any group?

    If you can refuse to serve gay people, you can refuse to serve cops. This shit goes both ways.

    Lobotomie ,

    Yes because homosexuals could just leave their gay in their car amirite

    TruTollTroll ,
    @TruTollTroll@lemmy.world avatar

    Right… why do they have to exist in public… /s 🧐🤔😭

    Ghostalmedia ,
    @Ghostalmedia@lemmy.world avatar

    True, but court would claim the previous ruling was focused on contracted custom services and freedom of speech.

    It would be pretty easy for them to craft an argument in favor of letting the cops in, as hypocritical as it may be.

    robbotlove ,

    this is what being conservative is all about. There must be in-groups whom the law protects but does not bind, alongside out-groups whom the law binds but does not protect.

    prole ,

    So then the Masterpiece Cake Shop ruling, maybe.

    That one might apply better. Same outcome.

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