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NOT_RICK ,
@NOT_RICK@lemmy.world avatar

What the fuck

Finkler ,

Exactly…

FlowVoid ,

Sounds pretty awful, but remember that prosecutors don’t have ESP. So “prosecutors claim she didn’t want to jeopardize her career” is not the same as “she didn’t want to jeopardize her career”.

It’s not like she wrote in her diary “Today I killed my newborn because I thought it would interfere with work.”

Dud ,
@Dud@lemmy.world avatar

Yea I don’t think many are as focused on the motivation part as much as the lady defenestrating a fuckin baby.

FlowVoid ,

That’s fair. Pure unfounded speculation: I wonder if there was an element of post partum psychosis.

Ulvain ,

My guess: didn’t know she was pregnant until very late. Options were dwindling or nil. She was completely and insanely career obsessed and career-anxious.

Arrives the last month or two. Pregnancy is hard to ignore then, but it was probably daily terror and panic as she didn’t know what to do. She probably felt cornered, insane with anxiety and barely holding it together in a field that doesn’t give you any room for error.

By the time she has to deliver, her brain is likely already pure soup from the anxiety, obsessing with how she can’t handle it, how it can’t be happening, how she can’t be a mother, doesn’t want to be a mother, can’t - not doesn’t want to, but can’t! CAN’T you understand?! - stop to work.

So she delivers secretly. By this point she’s too far gone, mentally a complete mess, insane, unstable.

So she kills her newborn.

Not as a heinous premeditated act of hatred, violence and mischief, but as a completely insane act of post partum depression, psychosis, work related anxiety and sheer craziness.

She didn’t choke or shake the baby then dug a grave at night - she didn’t do some elaborate crime and elaborate body-hiding shenanigans.

She threw. The. Baby. Out. Her. Own. Window.

And she’s a lawyer.

There was no attempt whatsoever to not get caught or to act surreptitiously.

Just pure terror, psychosis and a horrible, tragic impulse that ended up terminating a new life and ruining another.

Sorry i got carried away lyrically lol.

Kecessa ,

Yeah the title doesn’t mention that she gave birth in secret and threw the baby out her window 10 minutes later…

MataVatnik ,
@MataVatnik@lemmy.world avatar

Yeah this is a pretty important detail I think.

kshade ,
@kshade@lemmy.world avatar

German-language media says that she claims to not have known that she was pregnant, her Internet search history showed she likely did. Defense said that she was traumatized and had suppressed that she knew. Psychiatric evaluation says she was fully accountable. It’s kinda obvious that there was something very wrong going on, though.

swr.de/…/mordprozess-landgericht-junge-frau-lauff…

coolteathatisgreen ,

" Hoech claimed Jovanovic was unaware of her pregnancy and overwhelmed by the sudden birth."
How can one unaware of her pregnancy until give birth ?

FlowVoid ,

It happens.

afraid_of_zombies ,

You think you would notice missing 9 periods, having your entire nipple area change color and produce milk, need to go pee every thirty minutes, feet swelling, rapid temperature changes, focus problems, food cravings, vomiting for three months, odor sensitivities, not being able to tie your shoes, weird fast reflexes, urge to take on home repair projects, and skin changes.

But I am positive someone here will tell me about their friend’s cousin former yoga instructor’s roommate who didn’t notice for some reason and act like this is the norm

WldFyre ,

It’s not the norm but it’s also not unheard of.

HawlSera ,

No joke I have a friend of mine who just went to sleep one night and woke up with a baby covered in blood crying on her bed, umbilical chord still attached… Glad she doesn’t roll over in her sleep

Steve ,

Gee do you think?

Pavidus ,

Now there’s a word you don’t get to use very often!

Kecessa ,

Unless you follow Russian news!

unexposedhazard ,

“Funny” list to look at if you are bored en.wikipedia.org/…/Suspicious_deaths_of_notable_R…

Lots of uses of the word “window” in there

JudahBenHur ,

defenstrating!

Burstar ,
@Burstar@lemmy.dbzer0.com avatar

I know. I need eye bleach after reading that headline.

coolteathatisgreen ,

What the fuck I just read ?

Addv4 ,

So, I’m guessing abortion is banned or banned early in Germany?

FlowVoid ,

She claims she didn’t know she was pregnant.

FartsWithAnAccent ,
@FartsWithAnAccent@lemmy.world avatar

Did she not know about adoption either?

AGreenPurple ,

You also have the option to give up newborns at hospital sites anonymously and safely without any fear of persecution. I would have expected that you would know such a thing if you’re smart enough to become a lawyer, this was anything but a rational decision.

vxx , (edited )

It’s complicated. Basically it’s illegal, but there’s exceptions. The one exception that makes this law very weak, is that it isn’t illegal anymore if you got counseling at a place specialised for it.

Rape and medicinic reasons are also exceptions and counseling with the doctor is enough in that case.

It also has to happen in the first 90 days after getting pregnant.

Creat ,

This is a very complicated and backwards way of saying: it’s not illegal, you’re required to talk to a specialized counselor first though. That’s also frankly not an un reasonable requirement.

It’s not that complicated.

Naich ,
@Naich@lemmings.world avatar

We need to make it so women don’t have to feel this way…I thought Germany was fairly progressive like that, but obviously not enough.

Pothetato ,
@Pothetato@lemmy.world avatar

I mean sure but I think there’s a few extra steps between “feeling” this way and fucking doing it.

ASDraptor ,

I hope you’ll agree with me that there are alternatives before throwing your newborn baby off the window as if it was a fucking napkin.

Even abandoning it in front of a church is more humane than what this bitch did.

moody ,

Who throws napkins out the window?

afraid_of_zombies ,

Strictly speaking it is not as bad as throwing a baby out of one.

Naich ,
@Naich@lemmings.world avatar

Yes, she’s obviously seriously disturbed, but the situation of women either having a career or family is the driver behind her actions. There needs to be systematic support so women can have the same opportunities as men.

Naich ,
@Naich@lemmings.world avatar

Literally why she did it, but bring on the downvotes. Fuck this place is getting like Reddit.

feedum_sneedson ,

I think that’s just what the prosecution alleges at this stage.

WldFyre ,

“literally”

Just making stuff up and misinterpreting the headline without reading the article. You’re right, this is like Reddit!

MataVatnik ,
@MataVatnik@lemmy.world avatar

Apparently the career narrative is something the prosecutors put forward. She yeeted the baby just a few minutes after giving birth, there was something else going on here. If she was clear of mind and still wanted to kill the baby because of her career I’m sure this would not have been the first option.

revelrous ,

Don’t know this lady’s story. But post natal psychosis is a real tragic thing that can happen. This isnt the action of someone possessing their faculties.

Why when abortion is available would you carry to term -and then so impulsively act? If for whatever reason she didn’t want the baby and couldn’t get the abortion, she had months to come up with a better plan than ‘throw it out a window’. Either she was undiagnosed with something the whole time, or the birth triggered a psychological episode imo.

Kalkaline ,
@Kalkaline@leminal.space avatar

You can give someone access to all the help they need, but if they don’t seek it out, there’s not much you can do about it. It sounds like post partum depression may have played a role, that is real, but you can’t force someone into treatment.

ASDraptor ,

She threw the baby off the window 10 minutes after giving birth.

Kalkaline ,
@Kalkaline@leminal.space avatar

Spawn killer

passntrash ,

Interesting take. I wonder if the headline was:

“New Father and former Porsche Executive Throws Newborn Off Balcony”

Your first thoughts would be how the system failed him and that Germany needs to do more to support fathers.

Naich ,
@Naich@lemmings.world avatar

Not sure what your point is.

Deceptichum ,
@Deceptichum@quokk.au avatar

Their point is to call out the sexist take in feigning sympathy for a child murderer when we all know the world wouldn’t do that shit if it was a man.

Naich ,
@Naich@lemmings.world avatar

Just brainless strawman shit then.

Deceptichum ,
@Deceptichum@quokk.au avatar

Calling out sexism in society isn’t strawmaning.

Naich ,
@Naich@lemmings.world avatar

You aren’t calling out sexism, you are just inventing situations to get angry about.

WldFyre ,

Lmfao when men have to go through childbirth and have post partum depression then you’ll have a point.

Until then, have fun winning arguments you made up in the shower you goof.

Deceptichum ,
@Deceptichum@quokk.au avatar

Men can go through those things.

And what about women who never have children?

What a terrible argument you’ve presented.

WldFyre ,

Men can go through those things.

Hwhat

And what about women who never have children?

Lol What about them? How does that affect our discussion of mothers going through post partum??

Deceptichum ,
@Deceptichum@quokk.au avatar

Heat

Trans men exist.

lol What about them?

We were talking about sexism. You seemed to imply it only mattered for women who had given birth or suffered PPD.

Klear ,

Pretty sure it’s “fuck feminism”. I’ve seen this plenty of times before.

revelrous ,

It is a bit depressing how many guys in this thread don’t understand what pregnancy and childbirth can do to someone. Side effects may include: suicidal and homicidal urges. Google Postpartum Psychosis and Postpartum Depression.

Everyone is asking but why didn’t she act in a sane way and give it up for adoption? Well, there are good odds she needed something prescribed to her to allow her to be sane. Pregnant people’s bodies are undergoing major chemical changes, labor opens the floodgates. Which is why it is very important to make it easy and stigma free to let everyone out of the queue who does not want to ride the ride, and make healthcare accessible to those that do.

PapaStevesy ,

No amount of progressivism can stop people from getting mental illnesses.

LouNeko ,

As fucked up as this is, there’s so little information given by this article that I can’t even form an opinion on it.

sunzu ,

Feels clickbait but it got me going for a minute haha

NOT_RICK ,
@NOT_RICK@lemmy.world avatar

My current take is babies should not be thrown out of windows

Imprudent3449 ,

Sure that was my initial impression too, but I think I am going to sleep on it and maybe take some polls or study the matter more deeply. Can’t be too rash when judging someone for tossing a baby out of a window.

hardaysknight ,

Yeah, what if the baby was an asshole?

LouNeko ,

'Who are we killing, I won’t do kids, that’s a rule, but the rule’s negotiable if the kid’s a dick.'

  • Adrian Pimento, B99
afraid_of_zombies ,

Also it is really important that we consider all points of view. Maybe the pro-baby throwing out of the window side raises some interesting arguments. Let’s hear them out

MataVatnik ,
@MataVatnik@lemmy.world avatar

Personally I like to listen to all sides

Cypher ,

Fucking extremist!

charade_you_are ,

You say that but it’s well known some of them babies are out to get ya

overload ,

Insane. I can’t imagine a woman doing that to her own newborn baby. Defenestrating a baby would also ruin her career, so I guess she has a lot of other things going into that decision.

Kalkaline ,
@Kalkaline@leminal.space avatar

It’s not a logical decision.

overload ,

My point exactly.

cygnus ,
@cygnus@lemmy.ca avatar

They don’t have birth control in Germany?

sunzu ,

Abortion.

qarbone ,

They don’t have adoption in Germany?

cygnus ,
@cygnus@lemmy.ca avatar

That too, but if I were this adamant about having kids, I’d make damn sure I don’t have one in the first place.

girlfreddy ,
@girlfreddy@lemmy.ca avatar

And you know the pregnancy was by choice, ie: she wasn’t raped?

RamblingPanda ,

We have both. And the possibility to leave the new born at a (I think mostly) hospital anonymously

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Baby_hatch

I don’t think this was a rational decision. She should and will face consequences, but I don’t think she did it thinking straight.

FartsWithAnAccent ,
@FartsWithAnAccent@lemmy.world avatar

Well, that is mind-blowingly awful.

seaQueue ,
@seaQueue@lemmy.world avatar

I’m surprised the FSB hasn’t scouted her already

Hegar ,
@Hegar@fedia.io avatar

This just sounds like post partum depression to me.

Twinklebreeze ,

Post partum psychosis.

card797 ,

I can’t even begin to understand what it’s like inside a woman’s brain after childbirth. My wife struggled through it and came out ok. I’m glad I could help her.

cybersandwich ,

I read that the hormone swing from pregnancy to “back to normal” the month or so after is the fastest swing in hormones a human can experience.

It can absolutely fuck up your brain during that time + lack of sleep + stress. It’s a recipe for this kind of thing.

Patrizsche ,

You’re all rational and empathetic about this smh

Hegar ,
@Hegar@fedia.io avatar

That's definitely how I try to be! 😊

prole ,

“Just”

PenisWenisGenius ,

People without kids are often discriminated against when it comes to raises and promotions. Maybe I should move to Germany. Or just grow a pair and lie, what’s stable diffusion for anyway.

Feathercrown ,

You know what else I bet would jeopardize her professional career?

Also that’s murder, not manslaughter.

AbidanYre ,

7.5 years of jail?

Feathercrown ,

Ding ding ding we have a winner!

And the social consequences of course

Melody ,

This is horrifying. Unfortunately this is a problem because most countries do not allow abortion after a certain period of pregnancy; and there is oftentimes no exceptions to this that isn’t “a Rape charge on someone they might have slept with.”

This means that certain women can get “stealth-ed” by someone^1^ and not realize they’re pregnant until they’re too late past the abortion deadline because of their biology and inexperience with being pregnant. It’s also random and uncommon enough that authorities and lawmakers do not make accommodations for this situation.

^1^ - This also includes other situations such as uncommon birth control failures.

In this case; anti-abortion laws are intended to be cruel.

Unfortunately, women who are unknowingly pregnant also can’t get help. I think it’s likely the woman did not know she was pregnant until some point nearing the birth in the 8th or 9th month. If you’re a woman who isn’t native to the country, don’t know it’s laws, don’t know where to get help and stuck on a business trip or company provided residency visa; I could see how easily one could be quite panicked.

I don’t think she did the right thing. Unfortunately it’s a rare case of some grey areas which too often we tend to treat like a black area of wrong.

GregorGizeh , (edited )

To be fair, while abortion is technically not legal in Germany there are various allowances that essentially make it legal with restrictions. It is also for the most part less controversial than for example the united states. As for the restrictions: permitted within the first 12 weeks, after an advisement appointment with a doctor and a 3 day consideration period. For women with low income the mandatory health insurance covers the procedure, the restrictions also do not apply in cases of rape or health risk to the mother.

I guess what I am saying is that the woman really had no excuse not to have an abortion or give birth and then give up the child for adoption. Fucking heinous crime, especially for something as mundane as what sounds like a mid level bureaucrat job.

Beetschnapps , (edited )

This was a lawyer for a huge corporation… of anyone on the planet are you implying she just lacked access to an abortion? This woman is the most socially able example you could imagine…

I am extremely pro-choice. That implies a choice of a woman over her body. Not a choice to murder a born and living person, just cause of the situation or someone’s thought processes.

It may be hard to understand for people who think a mass of cells that would die without the mother living is an independent person who deserves to live regardless of if it kills the mother…

But I got to say you are doing a disservice to what pro-choice means.

Feels weird attaching pro-choice positions to a rich woman who threw a baby out the window instead of giving it up for adoption. That’s a disservice to the argument that poor people should have a choice in the first place.

testfactor ,

While all that is definitely reasonable, it’s a pretty big leap from “the law prevented me from getting an abortion” to “I’mma just yeet this baby out the window.”

Those ideas are so far apart as to not even remotely justify one another, right?

Like, if someone gets cut off in traffic, and they get mad and mow down a dozen pedestrians, it’d be insane to be like, “Well, you have to understand, he got cut off real bad. Mowing down pedestrians is clearly wrong, but there’s definitely some real grey area there.”

revelrous ,

Pregnancy and birth normally is traumatic and fucks you up. Your brain is doing wild things chemically and drowning in hormones, that sometimes actually push people into a temporary insanity. People with postpartum psychosis can become violent to themselves and others, hallucinate, have delusions, etc. It happens ~2 out of 1,000 births. And is more likely if the person had an untreated mental health problem beforehand. Getting angry that somebody cut you off is not a medical thing. Psychosis 10 minutes after labor usually is.

testfactor ,

Fair, and if the guy I responded to was saying that this was a grey area due to PP psychosis, I would have just agreed.

But he was making the case that this was a grey area due to the abortion laws forcing her to give birth. That’s a much different stance, and the one I was replying to.

revelrous ,

But they’re not really disconnected? Sometimes abortion is the treatment for PPP and PPD. I know people don’t want to hear it. But it is true. Some people are not equipped to handle the pregnancy and birth, and to stay sane they need the out. Any barriers you put between them and their treatment makes these events more likely to happen.

There was an American woman-whose name I forget but doubtless others will remember, who under the pressure of her fundamentalist christian husband kept having kids, and had PPD after each, and it was worse every time. She had counseling, she had anti-psychotics, her episodes were documented, but she was in an environment where she was pressured to carry to term. With her last pregnancy her PPD gave her religious delusions that her children were going to end up in Hell so she drown them all in a bathtub to save their souls. Pregnancy can be fraught on a healthy and willing person, what kind of pressure do you think it puts on someone who isn’t?

Kecessa , (edited )

There’s also women that simply end up not loving their baby and society pressuring them to be happy can lead them to be miserable and to take bad decisions like in this case. People need to start feeling comfortable talking about that because it’s more common than some people would like to believe and these women should feel comfortable considering adoption even if it wasn’t their plan when they got pregnant.

Even trying to look for articles on the subject is pretty much impossible in English while I find more info in my first language…

Timecircleline ,

I wonder if it was regret so much as a perinatal mood disorder or even postpartum psychosis. Very very sad. Until there’s evidence supporting the claim I think it’s best to give the benefit of the doubt.

tlou3please ,

Least psychopathic lawyer

nifty ,
@nifty@lemmy.world avatar

Please give your children up for adoption instead, what the fuck

samus12345 ,
@samus12345@lemmy.world avatar

https://i.imgflip.com/8x9iz4.jpg

someguy3 ,

Fuck dude.

samus12345 ,
@samus12345@lemmy.world avatar

I know, I’m awful. At least I had the decency to edit out the last panels.

TheMightyCanuck ,
@TheMightyCanuck@sh.itjust.works avatar

It makes the joke just that much more of an oof tho.

10/10 my friend

phx ,

I think that makes it even better. Fucking dark, but still funny because we all knew right away what the last panel would look like were it there…

Raptor_007 ,

Ok I legitimately laughed at this. Well done, sir.

needanke ,

Please repost that as its own meme, this is gold!

AeonFelis ,

WDYM “its own meme”? Comedy is all about context, and this meme is only perfect because it’s in the context of this story.

needanke ,

Generally sure, but I think part of the context that makes this funny is the meme format itself, which is why I think it would also work without the context of this post.

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