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shekau ,

birth took place ten minutes prior to the tragic incident

Bro got spawn-killed

todd_bonzalez ,
@todd_bonzalez@lemm.ee avatar

Lots of heartless people in the comments who didn’t read her side of this. Honestly, I sympathize with her almost entirely.

She didn’t know she was pregnant. This is something that happens to women of her size sometimes. Not all pregnancies have the telltale symptoms. Sometimes you learn about your pregnancy as you’re going into labor.

It’s rare, but it absolutely happens.

She went from having a normal evening, to giving a natural birth alone in her apartment in a matter of about 20 minutes. She went from thinking she was having cramps to holding her newborn baby.

Within 10 minutes the baby had been dropped out of a window.

The amount of trauma this woman experienced, combined with the extreme and often immediate postpartum mental health issues, including psychosis, absolutely led to her making a completely irrational and tragic decision. I find it hard to swallow that she deserves punishment as if this were a long thought out plan to kill a child. This was a poorly handled crisis handled by a traumatized woman in a fugue state. She was not in a sound state of mind.

She doesn’t deserve prison, she deserves compassion for what she’s suffered and treatment for her mental ailments.

That they interrogated her and used her panic over her career against her as if she schemed to kill a child to further her career is honestly a disgusting angle to try to punish this woman. They opportunistically grilled a woman experiencing trauma so that they could throw the book at her.

qdJzXuisAndVQb2 ,

She murdered a baby. She needs rehabilitation, help, sure, but it doesn’t get much worse than baby killing, imo.

todd_bonzalez , (edited )
@todd_bonzalez@lemm.ee avatar

She was convicted of manslaughter, not murder. Even the courts that I am criticizing aren’t going as far as you.

Regardless, whatever emotional response you have to the death of the baby shouldn’t matter in comparison to the circumstances and motives leading to it.

Your zero-tolerance for “baby killing” is what lands women in prison for miscarriages.

qdJzXuisAndVQb2 ,

Terrible attempt at a straw man at the end there, 2/10.

HawlSera ,

You’re a fucking lawyer for a prestigious car brand. Surely hiring a god damn nanny was a better solution than child murder?

Buddahriffic ,

Take a week off, go to the hospital to get yourself and baby checked out. While in hospital, order a car seat. They’ll probably give you some diapers and an outfit or blanket.

Then, when you leave the hospital, head to fire dept and place baby in the “need a baby, take a baby, have a baby, leave a baby” box.

HawlSera ,

I know you’re being facetious, but this was in Germany where workers actually have rights to take a week off, and healthcare is freer than breadsticks.

Buddahriffic ,

That’s sad that your first assumption was that I was joking because I said “take a week off” and “go to the hospital”. Not a statement about you but about the state of things in some areas.

Though it’s also sad that I silently assumed those weren’t outlandish suggestions because she was a lawyer (though, as a Canadian, I did forget for a moment that “go to the hospital” might be a showstopper rather than the minimum level of care a parent who doesn’t want their surprise baby should do before abandoning it at the fire dept).

The only part that I had intended as tongue in cheek was the “leave a baby, take a baby” bit. The comment was intended as a “this is a better way to handle this than dropping the baby out of the nearest window that doesn’t involve having to take care of the baby at all, beyond a week of dealing with it with a minimum level of responsibly.”

Alternatively, put the baby in a box with a towel, drop it off in a location where it can survive 5 minutes and call 911 to that location. Or call an adoption agency.

BilboBargains ,

Let’s set aside motive and treat this woman’s obvious problem with her mental health. The last thing she needs is criminal proceedings and punishment that achieves nothing apart from getting conservative dicks hard.

some_guy ,

Defence attorney Malte Hoech, 53, presented a contrasting view, arguing that the incident was a tragic accident. Hoech claimed Jovanovic was unaware of her pregnancy and overwhelmed by the sudden birth.

So your client is intelligent enough to earn a law degree and achieve a high rank at a prestigious multi-national, but too stupid to figure out she’s preggers? Yeah, that’s believable.

Drewelite ,

I’ve known some workaholics, And they can be pretty oblivious to everything that isn’t in the lane of their work life. Their own health, already born children, basic life stuff, etc… Also stress induced amenorrhea is a thing .

This psycho should absolutely go to prison. But it’s possible she’s at least being honest.

some_guy ,

Interesting take. I’m open to it. Thanks.

DrFuggles ,

it actually is. en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Neonaticide?wprov=sfla1 has a bit to say on it, but doesn’t go too much into the root causes. The majority of cases as far as I understand it stem from the mother not wanting to accept that she is pregnant. This is a delusion, mind you, and if untreated, can have dire consequences as shown here. To mothers who are not adequately prepared for birth (because they, for whatever reason, have repressed their pregnancy), giving birth must be about as traumatizing as if I were to wake up tomorrow with a third leg (that wants to be fed).

The German-language coverage of this is also very hit and miss. most outlets, like here, put an emphasis on here being a Porsche lawyer, which is a) bending the truth somewhat for shock value (she’s a contract counsel for their financing subsidiary iirc) and b) completely irrelevant, as other outlets point out that this pathological behavior does not know class boundaries.

phoenixz ,

Thanks for that very reasoned response

MTK ,

Those speed runners find the weirdest bugs in the simulation

prole ,

Holy fuck lol

HelixDab2 ,

Hmmm. It looks like Germany has fairly strict limits on the availability of abortion; it’s on-demand up to 12 weeks, but requires mandatory counseling first. It seems like perhaps expanding abortion access to on-demand up to the point of realistic fetal viability and eliminating the counseling requirement might–might–have led to a different outcome here.

I wonder if she had attempted to terminate her pregnancy prior to this point?

For the people saying that she should have just adopted the infant: that’s extremely difficult for someone to do, even if they know that they don’t want a child or are not capable of caring for it. I’ve seen multiple teens end up keeping children that they didn’t plan on, didn’t want, and had no means to care for, all because they couldn’t go through with an adoption in the end.

SirDerpy , (edited )

deleted_by_author

    •
    HelixDab2 ,

    she threw one out of a moving vehicle.

    Building. She threw it out of her apartment.

    ReveredOxygen ,
    @ReveredOxygen@sh.itjust.works avatar

    If you can’t stand to give your baby up, you’re also not going to be willing to throw it out the window

    bob_lemon ,

    The government has called up an expert committee and asked for their opinion on potential reforms.

    The report came in April, and it strongly suggests making it actually legal in the first 12 weeks (it is currently only decriminalized) and getting rid of the mandatory counseling. They leave it up to the lawmakers to deal with week 12 to 22 (where the fetus starts being able to sustain itself).

    The government has not yet started on n implementing this, however.

    JimSamtanko ,

    I guess she didn’t think infanticide would hurt it? She’s clearly not a good lawyer.

    njm1314 ,

    I’m not sure she’s actually wrong in the part about it Jeopardizing her career, because let’s face it sometimes that’s true. However did that not occur to her before she had the child? Surely she should have known that and not had a kid if that was her main priority.

    HawlSera ,

    Or, she’s a lawyer for a luxury car company…

    So hire a god damn nanny?

    dohpaz42 ,
    @dohpaz42@lemmy.world avatar

    This is sad, and it’s a shame the prosecutors are only going to be interested in a conviction. This woman is obviously suffering, and needs medical help for her postpartum depression.

    www.theatlantic.com/family/archive/…/569386/

    Baggie ,

    Jesus. I thought this was an onion article.

    samus12345 ,
    @samus12345@lemmy.world avatar

    https://i.imgflip.com/8x9iz4.jpg

    someguy3 ,

    Fuck dude.

    samus12345 ,
    @samus12345@lemmy.world avatar

    I know, I’m awful. At least I had the decency to edit out the last panels.

    TheMightyCanuck ,
    @TheMightyCanuck@sh.itjust.works avatar

    It makes the joke just that much more of an oof tho.

    10/10 my friend

    phx ,

    I think that makes it even better. Fucking dark, but still funny because we all knew right away what the last panel would look like were it there…

    Raptor_007 ,

    Ok I legitimately laughed at this. Well done, sir.

    needanke ,

    Please repost that as its own meme, this is gold!

    AeonFelis ,

    WDYM “its own meme”? Comedy is all about context, and this meme is only perfect because it’s in the context of this story.

    needanke ,

    Generally sure, but I think part of the context that makes this funny is the meme format itself, which is why I think it would also work without the context of this post.

    nifty ,
    @nifty@lemmy.world avatar

    Please give your children up for adoption instead, what the fuck

    tlou3please ,

    Least psychopathic lawyer

    Melody ,

    This is horrifying. Unfortunately this is a problem because most countries do not allow abortion after a certain period of pregnancy; and there is oftentimes no exceptions to this that isn’t “a Rape charge on someone they might have slept with.”

    This means that certain women can get “stealth-ed” by someone^1^ and not realize they’re pregnant until they’re too late past the abortion deadline because of their biology and inexperience with being pregnant. It’s also random and uncommon enough that authorities and lawmakers do not make accommodations for this situation.

    ^1^ - This also includes other situations such as uncommon birth control failures.

    In this case; anti-abortion laws are intended to be cruel.

    Unfortunately, women who are unknowingly pregnant also can’t get help. I think it’s likely the woman did not know she was pregnant until some point nearing the birth in the 8th or 9th month. If you’re a woman who isn’t native to the country, don’t know it’s laws, don’t know where to get help and stuck on a business trip or company provided residency visa; I could see how easily one could be quite panicked.

    I don’t think she did the right thing. Unfortunately it’s a rare case of some grey areas which too often we tend to treat like a black area of wrong.

    GregorGizeh , (edited )

    To be fair, while abortion is technically not legal in Germany there are various allowances that essentially make it legal with restrictions. It is also for the most part less controversial than for example the united states. As for the restrictions: permitted within the first 12 weeks, after an advisement appointment with a doctor and a 3 day consideration period. For women with low income the mandatory health insurance covers the procedure, the restrictions also do not apply in cases of rape or health risk to the mother.

    I guess what I am saying is that the woman really had no excuse not to have an abortion or give birth and then give up the child for adoption. Fucking heinous crime, especially for something as mundane as what sounds like a mid level bureaucrat job.

    Beetschnapps , (edited )

    This was a lawyer for a huge corporation… of anyone on the planet are you implying she just lacked access to an abortion? This woman is the most socially able example you could imagine…

    I am extremely pro-choice. That implies a choice of a woman over her body. Not a choice to murder a born and living person, just cause of the situation or someone’s thought processes.

    It may be hard to understand for people who think a mass of cells that would die without the mother living is an independent person who deserves to live regardless of if it kills the mother…

    But I got to say you are doing a disservice to what pro-choice means.

    Feels weird attaching pro-choice positions to a rich woman who threw a baby out the window instead of giving it up for adoption. That’s a disservice to the argument that poor people should have a choice in the first place.

    testfactor ,

    While all that is definitely reasonable, it’s a pretty big leap from “the law prevented me from getting an abortion” to “I’mma just yeet this baby out the window.”

    Those ideas are so far apart as to not even remotely justify one another, right?

    Like, if someone gets cut off in traffic, and they get mad and mow down a dozen pedestrians, it’d be insane to be like, “Well, you have to understand, he got cut off real bad. Mowing down pedestrians is clearly wrong, but there’s definitely some real grey area there.”

    revelrous ,

    Pregnancy and birth normally is traumatic and fucks you up. Your brain is doing wild things chemically and drowning in hormones, that sometimes actually push people into a temporary insanity. People with postpartum psychosis can become violent to themselves and others, hallucinate, have delusions, etc. It happens ~2 out of 1,000 births. And is more likely if the person had an untreated mental health problem beforehand. Getting angry that somebody cut you off is not a medical thing. Psychosis 10 minutes after labor usually is.

    testfactor ,

    Fair, and if the guy I responded to was saying that this was a grey area due to PP psychosis, I would have just agreed.

    But he was making the case that this was a grey area due to the abortion laws forcing her to give birth. That’s a much different stance, and the one I was replying to.

    revelrous ,

    But they’re not really disconnected? Sometimes abortion is the treatment for PPP and PPD. I know people don’t want to hear it. But it is true. Some people are not equipped to handle the pregnancy and birth, and to stay sane they need the out. Any barriers you put between them and their treatment makes these events more likely to happen.

    There was an American woman-whose name I forget but doubtless others will remember, who under the pressure of her fundamentalist christian husband kept having kids, and had PPD after each, and it was worse every time. She had counseling, she had anti-psychotics, her episodes were documented, but she was in an environment where she was pressured to carry to term. With her last pregnancy her PPD gave her religious delusions that her children were going to end up in Hell so she drown them all in a bathtub to save their souls. Pregnancy can be fraught on a healthy and willing person, what kind of pressure do you think it puts on someone who isn’t?

    Kecessa , (edited )

    There’s also women that simply end up not loving their baby and society pressuring them to be happy can lead them to be miserable and to take bad decisions like in this case. People need to start feeling comfortable talking about that because it’s more common than some people would like to believe and these women should feel comfortable considering adoption even if it wasn’t their plan when they got pregnant.

    Even trying to look for articles on the subject is pretty much impossible in English while I find more info in my first language…

    Timecircleline ,

    I wonder if it was regret so much as a perinatal mood disorder or even postpartum psychosis. Very very sad. Until there’s evidence supporting the claim I think it’s best to give the benefit of the doubt.

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