Biden will probably win some and lose some no matter what stance he takes on this issue. He might lose some pro-palestinian voters but gain some pro-israel moderates.
Still, I don’t think many pro-palestinian voters will move away from Democrats because there’s nowhere else to go except to not vote, which I guess some may choose.
With young voter turnout already so low, and the way Gen Z is killing it with anti war TikToks… Its a fucking death knell. The youth need to turn out, and this type of rhetoric is not going to help do that.
No one who wants Trump will change their minds to Biden, there is no point in even trying for their votes. The youth vote, the Muslim vote, the African American vote are needed to win and nothing turns off those three groups like supporting the crushing of a powerless group by a larger technologically superior force supported by your tax dollars.
It’s not going to crumble, the fact that you think voting for him will do that, means you have fallen for propaganda, it’s going to stay pretty much the same, but just with worse civil liberties, and an emboldened fascist religious crowd, which funny enough are more docile to the government.
Oh, corruption is going to thrive under Trump. Did you not notice that last time around? Did you not notice the fake charities, the tax payer money funneled into Mar-a-Lago, the hundreds of millions going to Trump PACs, the money going to the Trump hotel in Washington DC, all the corruption and bribes and schemes?
And the fun thing is that now that Trump knows how to do all of this, how to funnel millions into his own pocket, a second Trump presidency is going to be corruption on steroids.
The only thing that’s going to crumble are democratic norms and human rights in the United States.
“He might lose some pro-palestinian voters but gain some pro-israel moderates”
This is the main problem with the democratic party. They are always tryign to please the far-right, but they are unwilling to compromise with the far-left
I don’t disagree but I think the real problem is that this is how it has to be. We’ve pretty much completely lost the GOP government subversion scheme across all branches and levels. Forget foreign policy, we can’t even get people healthcare and homes. Because these terrorists have taken over our government. How are we going to get the nice things when we’re struggling to get our oxygen mask on?
If you’re concerned about this, get out and vote in ALL local elections, tell your coworkers about local elections, inform them about mail in and absentee voting.
I vote from my kitchen table and get confirmation that my vote was counted. You could too, if it’s not currently accessible to you, complain about it, talk to local news about it. The GOP made the gains they did because of a disenfranchised and apathetic constituency.
Totally, I hear you. I’ve missed maybe 3 elections as an adult, and iirc they were off year primaries. I tried to vote Nancy Pelosi out of office for not being liberal enough. I live in SF and have the privilege to do that. I vote left up and down the ballot. Except president. Because that’s not what’s actually happening here. I don’t like it, and my vote may not matter anyway in California since 1988, but we’re debating christofascist autocracy vs capitalist oligarch republic, not liberal vs conservative. And any mf that can’t see that and considers not voting for the lowest denominator electable Dem is naive or immature. It doesn’t matter what one wants, reality matters. And the reality is half the country has forced us to have that election instead of an actual presidential one. So I’m fighting two party system (successfully) electing and supporting out of state friends running campaigns, for DSA candidates. Not by being unrealistic about how close we are to losing our democracy altogether bc I’m salty that the Dems are as centrist as they’ve ever been. I’m not a centrist, I’m just not living with my head in the sand or the clouds. I got downvoted above… People aren’t realistic. This is our reality today. One needn’t like it, but one must accept it. 🤷
Most importantly, this stance doesn’t piss off AIPAC. If you ever want the overarching position of the us govt on Israel to change, you need to do something about AIPAC. They hold enormous lobbying power and will put it behind your opponents if you don’t support Israel.
I don’t agree with saying anything but voting for joe biden is totally equivalent to voting for trump, which is being said a lot… I don’t see why.
Not voting or voting 3rd party can cause a spoiler effect. But obviously that effect is less than directly voting for the worse guy. Mathematically they aren’t the same.
It is causing a lot of conflict to try and place a moral obligation on strategic voting specifically.
Everyone who is about to yell at me: I’ll probably vote strategically, that is my plan. I just don’t agree with all this hatred for 3rd parties.
3rd parties aren’t bad, but our system punishes people for supporting them. It would be best if we could say “I’d like the 3rd party to be in charge, but if not them, then at least Biden.” In that case, I would totally support 3rd party candidates.
But if we ever want ranked choice voting, it’s going to be implemented by democrats, not republicans.
I agree with all that. Your point about ranked choice is why I personally think state elections are more important than presidential at the moment, and is one of the major reasons I have for still voting democrat.
I think when it comes to telling other people how to vote, people should be more careful to not accidentally encourage hopelessness and voter apathy by the way they phrase it.
You’re right, but the people beating their chests all over the internet about taking some kind of moral high ground or voting with their conscience also should be mindful that many of us will be the first people strung up on the wall if Trump’s fascist vision comes to pass, so we’re more than a little uneasy at how cavalier they are about the dangerous situation we’re currently in. People should place whatever vote they think will keep Trump as far away from power as physically possible. Right now all signs are pointing to his counterpart from the other major party, because none of the 3rd party candidates have either the campaign infrastructure or the policy chops to carry them through to the finish line. So if it turns out that best option is Joe Biden, so be it. If it’s not, so be it. But in either case the singular goal should be to keep Trump away from DC. Everything else is just white noise.
I heard that same song and dance 20 years ago. Just replace “Trump” with “Bush”. At the end of the day, no Democrat is ever going to say “Hey, you know what? This election actually isn’t very important, so vote for whoever you want!”
If Biden wants my vote, he has to earn it, and that starts with not endorsing genocide.
I’m not going to argue against what you think you heard 20 years ago, except to say that if you don’t believe Trump is the single most dangerous candidate to ever run for the presidency, then you go into 2024 more optimistic than me. I pray for our health and safety in 2025, and if his next coup attempt succeeds where the last one failed, I pray that we’ll survive the bloodshed after the fall.
You can rest in the knowledge that if Trump either wins or there’s a successful coup he likely won’t control the entire country for very long because it will escalate to a civil war very quickly when California, Michigan, New York, Washington, and the other blue states tell him to fuck off
Don’t get me wrong it will still be horrific for all of us, but i dont think most blue states will be willing to fall in line so readily after his first term and the dictatorial shit he’s been mask off about recently
Yeah, remember when how the people who voted for Nader got us Bush, who ignored reports of a terror attack before 9/11 and got us into an unnecessary 10-year war in Iraq causing hundreds of thousands of deaths and trillions of dollars in expenses for the US government, which was then translated into "We don't have money to stop veterans from freezing to death in their homes, stop complaining"?
Definitely not a big deal, definitely just a nice little politics as usual moment. Who cares about Red Team or Blue Team, Both Sides Bad!
And if you don't think Trump, who attempted an outright autocoup, is worse, I have a bridge in fucking Brooklyn to sell you.
You’re right, that the net impact is exactly half of voting for trump instead - in that you only reduce biden’s vote, as opposed to increasing trump’s.
In less consequential elections, I absolute agree that voting for the candidate you want is key. But the risk here of a bad candidate is not just a shit period of government, but a genuinely significant risk of incurring a coup.
If you assume a default vote of “any viable candidate other than trump”, you still move in the same direction as voting for trump instead if you vote for a 3rd party candidate.
In countries with a healthier (not two party) system, this is typically the point where the centrist and left parties tend to form an electoral alliance to avoid the disaster candidate. That doesn’t really work for presidential elections though, so individual votes need to take on that same role to minimise the risk.
I can only accept that as an argument for why strategic voting is smart. It doesn’t make sense to me as an argument for saying voting for the candidate you want is morally wrong in contexts where it could cause a spoiler effect. This is where people are blurring the line that bothers me.
I’m not sure why anyone would expect trump to not also fund the genocide of Palestinians.
Bluntly, the policy differences between the two are insufficient, but the behavior of trump supporters themselves is part of my considerations. Having trump as president for 4 years inspired incredibly fucked up behavior from conservatives.
If you would otherwise vote Democratic and fail to vote for Biden over stupid shit like this, you will be electing someone who openly admits to wanting a purge program here:
Your choice is to vote for someone who supports Israel because he wants donations from the true believers, or through inaction, allow someone to get elected who actively says he will start rounding people up HERE. Immediately.
There is no choice. You don’t have to LIKE Biden. You don’t have to tell polls the truth about who you’re voting for. You don’t have to donate, and in fact I advise you do not and you tell the campaign exactly why.
But when it comes to the actual vote, no, you do not have a choice. It’s Biden or complete fucking anarchy.
‘my vote doesn’t matter’ is a self fulfilling prophecy. The more people actually believe that, the more they won’t go and vote and then indeed it doesn’t matter.
However if all the people that think that their vote doesn’t matter actually do go and vote, they would be a significant demographic.
It might not make a difference straight away, but thinks only happen if you invest in them.
Same thing with sports. If you support one team, it makes you more invested in the game itself. Your team might not win every time, but if you care only about winning you’re not a true supporter. It will make it easy more satisfying if you do win, though. And one day you will.
To add to this: if the opposition party consistently shows up to vote, the dominant party gets nervous, and has to focus on the chance of losing. Not showing up means they’ve truly won.
It also shows the opposition party that they can and should invest the time in supporting that area, because there’s people who haven’t given up yet.
Also, the president isn’t the only person on the ballot, and small races are where more radical third parties actually have a shot!
He’s technically correct. As long as the electoral college exists, many peoples votes effectively don’t matter because that state will always go one way. Once that occurs, the opposing votes are effectively erased.
Afaik the American special the electoral college votes for whatever the majority vote of that State is. So votes do count, towards that majority.
If everybody assumes that one party will win and doesn’t go to vote it will never change, if everybody who thinks that their vote doesn’t matter would do that, a change can happen.
Congressional, state and local elections are held at the same time on the same damn ballot and absolutely matter. They absolutely will affect you and congress is arguably just as important as potus. It’s called being engaged, instead just complaining while letting others take the wheel.
Except in actuality where with the electoral college in play, states that have as few electors as Rhode Island have a smaller number of EC votes than every margin of victory in the modern history of presidential elections. You could axe any one state with that few number of electors and you wouldn’t change a presidential result of the last century or more.
Okay? My point is that the electoral college means not every vote will count, and that is a system that only effects the presidential. So saying, and I quote from who I replied to “every vote matters” still isn’t telling the whole story as much as something like “every vote matters except the votes for president unless you live in specific places”
If your apathy opens the door to a Republican supermajority in your state legislature, then they can more easily a) strip rights from your friends and neighbors, b) assist in the ratification of amendments and calling of Constitutional Conventions, c) gerrymander away your power to influence Congress, d) remove your city’s ability to govern itself, among others. Down-ballot races can potentially affect all of us.
I think what you are saying is mostly true but also you do have a choice. If you can’t bring yourself to vote for Biden because of well founded reasons I don’t think it’s fair to judge because of that. All the centrists start screaming and losing their minds that they are going to lose because their candidate sucks and blame it on people who have specific, previously vocalized reasons for not wanting to vote for said candidate.
You aren’t the problem if you don’t want to vote for Biden because of his unwavering support for genocide. Yes the alternative is worse, but election after election you can’t just keep handing centrists your vote who don’t give a shit about you or your policies (and actively shit on you while loudly posturing that they aren’t like you at all). At some point you have to make the threat of withholding your vote a real one, there are always consequences to that especially for this election but at the same time nothing is really going to change if we keep handing centrist corporate democrats the reigns to power because this time is an emergency too (just like last time).
I recommend voting for Biden for similar reasons you brought up, but I also don’t think there is any shame to deciding you can’t bring yourself to vote for such a trash candidate and want to choose this election so support a third party. Bad timing? Yeah, but it isn’t the voters fault for not wanting to vote for someone that doesn’t represent them?
Yes the alternative is worse, but election after election you can’t just keep handing centrists your vote who don’t give a shit about you or your policies (and actively shit on you while loudly posturing that they aren’t like you at all). At some point you have to make the threat of withholding your vote a real one, there are always consequences to that especially for this election but at the same time nothing is really going to change if we keep handing centrist corporate democrats the reigns to power because this time is an emergency too (just like last time).
Here’s where you’re missing something fundamental. You’re taking as a given that a protest vote will meaningfully register with the Democratic Party, and they’ll chase you around to get your vote back. I’d offer that a significant reason major US parties have drifted rightward over the past 40 years is this. Conservatives skew older. Leftists skew younger. Young people simply don’t vote. Ergo conservatives have an outsized voice in the political sphere. When more leftists disengage, the conservative voice grows louder.
If you protest vote the Democratic Party, you’re just proving to them that they can’t count on your vote. If they can’t count on your vote, they have the option of scrambling to try to figure out what you want, or chasing voters whose support they can count on, and based on recent history that’ll probably result in more of a shift to the right. Because, at the end of the day, right-leaning voters have a weird fervor that leftists don’t share, and leftists disengage at the drop of a hat. If we’re being honest, that’s not a great group of people to have on your team if you’re trying to sustain political relevance.
I don’t think this sentiment is about protest. It’s about conscious. Many cannot consciously vote for a Zionist president complicit with genocide. Many may change their minds, it’s a year away, but many won’t. We can selfishly brow-beat them into voting for Biden. But in the end, it’s their choice.
We can selfishly brow-beat them into voting for Biden.
Shaming people into voting for your candidate doesn’t work, but Dems will do it anyway. It splits the left and helps Republicans, but they either aren’t aware of this or don’t care.
you will be electing someone who openly admits to wanting a purge program here:
Understood. You’re okay with that stuff happening in Palestine, but not the USA, because you live in the USA. Supporting tyranny abroad is a-okay because you don’t think it affects you.
There’s no way you could honestly interpret what I wrote that way. I’m responding to the fans of Joe who are openly saying “Who cares about genocide when Trump is worse?”
I do care about genocide, and that’s (one of many reasons) why I’ll be voting for Jill Stein, not Joe Biden.
If you’re not familiar, the US uses a two party system. Not voting is no different than voting for Jill. There’s no difference between not voting for Biden and voting for Trump.
Unfortunately, it’s not up to “the Democrats”, it’s up to the DNC and there is no way they will back anyone else unless Joe has a major medical event between now and election day.
Even if he did drop out, they would push Harris who is poison right now.
The problem is that, in a democracy, you have to vote for the best candidate. Otherwise, democracy doesn’t work. If you decide to vote for a candidate "you don’t like* (i.e. “strategic voting”), you are contributing to the problem.
People call it “voting for the lesser evil”, but a vote for a lesser evil…is still a vote for evil. So, while it isn’t as wrong as voting for Trump, it’s still wrong.
If there can only be 1 winner, and there are 2 frontrunners who have the only real chance of winning, a 3rd competitor only takes votes from a frontrunner and has no chance of winning themselves.
As someone like Stein is mentioned as an alternative to voting for trump, therefore the person was never a trump voter, they were never going to ADD to Trump’s chances. Their only voting action is to either vote for Biden, or NOT* vote. By NOT* I mean not contribute to bidens vote totals.
Voting for stein is effectively a non republican voter staying home.
This is a major problem with our voting system, there can only ever be 2 realistic choices, and a third party vote has greater game theory implications than independent voters like to accept.
every vote must be earned. so-called “third parties” dont take votes from other parties: they earn them from voters.
Voting for stein is effectively a non republican voter staying home.
for a party who believes they deserve every non-republican vote. but in the elections offices across the country, it’s effectively a vote for Jill Stein.
Let’s be clear: I’m condescending you, because you have a childish understanding and engagement with presidential elections.
Not because you choose to vote 3rd party, there’s nothing wrong with that.
But because you naively dodge the consequences of your voting choices.
Stand on whatever justification you like, but voting has consequences, and 3rd party votes are levers pulled against a competitive candidate. That’s it.
Basic understanding of game theory is not rhetoric.
a basic understanding of it would tell you it doesn’t dictate human actions, and people frequently make decisions that do not seem to be in their “rational self interest”
are you sure? biden wrote the crime bill and the patriot act and voted to fund every war he could. trump signed the first step act and didn’t start any new wars and he even doubled my unemployment payments. joe promised me 2k and gave me 1200.
and to think that either of them are even trying to be leftist is laughable.
i’m probably gonna vote for jill stein or cornel west. i guess it depends on whether west gets ballot access but there is some possibility jill can just win me over.
oh, you know what? maybe it’s the option of having my foot crushed or amputated. one isn’t quite as bad but neither is really something i’ll be choosing given any other choice.
Saying “both sides bad” has implied meaning. I’m only expanding on the words you said without changing anything. If you said, “The Earth orbits the Sun.” and I expanded that to explain Kepler’s laws, I’m not contradicting you or putting words in your mouth.
If you want to suggest details such as an example where Trump did good and Biden did bad on a particular policy, then please elaborate. Trump said Ukraine needs to surrender. Biden didn’t say Ukraine should surrender so they are both equally bad? Give me an example.
Trump said Ukraine should surrender. Biden said Ukraine shouldn’t surrender and the Republican controlled House of Representatives should help Ukraine. You group both as bad.
Good thing you do remember since he’s still ripping apart immigrant families. Biden’s border policy is only marginally better than Trumps, he just doesn’t brag about it.
Really? The first thing you do when seeing this is tell people to vote for Genocide Joe instead of saying “actually let’s try to get a third party going”.
"No guys we have to vote for Hitler, Stalin is way worse! ".
That’s not true either, it is simply that democracy is complex and messy. Vote in primaries, campaign for better candidates, and pay money to organizations that support the things that matter most to you.
There’s a whole Wikipedia page of dominant parties that reigned supreme as a duopoly in this country until a third party came along and dethroned them. What you just said shows a shocking ignorance of history. Vote whig.
There is a whole Wikipedia page showing changes in name. The function of the first past the post system means these are fundamentally the same constructs with different branding. If a party replaces democrats or republicans, then we will be back in the same place in an election cycle.
You’re doing way worse than throwing away your vote, you’re voting FOR genocide. If you and other Dem voters who want to feel good about yourself weren’t cowards and voted Green we wouldn’t be perpetuating a genocide in the first place.
Any vote is for genocide. You’re voting for either a self avowed zionist (Biden) a literal Nazi (Trump) or throwing away your vote to allow the literal Nazi to win.
No one voting Stein would ever vote Biden so that’s untrue. A tired old argument that’s lost it’s luster, just like all your arguments for voting for Biden.
Making it so Trump supporters can’t vote will definitely hinder his progress. How many died because they failed to take Covid protections? How many can’t vote because they are now Jan. 6 convicts?
You act like there was a non-genocide option. Once Hamas did that attack, there was no stopping the crazy right wing Israeli government from doing what they are doing.
So what? The US should take a hard line against Israel anyways, even if it does no good, right? Great, so Israel is removed from the US sphere of influence and goes shopping for a new sugar daddy. That would be China, or more likely Russia. Now Russia is chummy with both Israel and Iran, which has the inconvenient little side effect that the Palestinians will lose the support of Iran. But who cares about the Palestinians anyways.
Any hope the US had of restraining Israel in any way whatsoever is contingent on our continued support. Without that, we have no influence and someone else steps in.
I’m not claiming that Biden has handled this perfectly, but the general direction he has gone has been in the best interest of saving as many Palestinian lives as possible. There are no clean hands in foreign policy.
Yikes. Way to miss the point. I was laying out the unintended consequences of naive foreign policy, and your pointing to a list of people you think are naive enough to do it - and you seem to think that’s a good thing. Assuming you are right, they would be fucking over the Palestinians in order to be smugly pro-Palestine. Form over function and virtue signaling instead of getting to better outcomes are hallmarks of third party politics in this country.
The outcome of a policy isn’t irrelevant to a policy, it’s the whole point of the policy. I didn’t make a wild guess or rely on my own intuition. That scenario is one of several that foreign policy experts are warning against. The worst case is Iran getting actively involved, but that’s far less likely.
not really: eyewitness testimony is some of the worst we can ask for. you should ask carville, though, you don’t have to: he’s in the mini-doc i linked.
You could say the exact same thing for the exact same reasons about the US government. If you can’t fix a rotton organization, then any attempt at political action in the United States is a fools errand. Thankfully, you’re just talking out of your ass. We get it, you’re edgy.
Setting aside that you know nothing of my voting history, this is entirely irrelevant.
The Democratic party used to be what the Republicans are today. Eventually they became the party of FDR and the new deal. Now they are the party of Bill Clinton and third way neoliberal corporatism. Things change, and we can influence the direction of that change. Forcing Biden to the left has made him a better president than anyone on the left expected. He’s still not the president we want, but we shifted him in the right direction. The Democratic party as a whole is better now than it was 10 years ago.
Go ahead and piss on the progress that’s been made, but then be prepared to explain how third party movements have done any better.
Clever, but wrong. You actually get to choose between:
Continuing to give $600 million in annual aid to Gaza and diplomacy to try to get Israel to minimize civilian casualties while they understandably pursue Hamas terrorists, Or,
Fascism and complete disregard for civilian casualties.
Perhaps neither is to your taste, but there are stark differences in the two positions.
Yes, I know, actual rational policy-making is so boring. It is much less satisfying than over-simplified, one-sided memes. But, you know, that’s what adults do. ¯_(ツ)_/¯
Democracy is when you get to choose between genocide over there OR genocide over there and right here too. Because you know damn well Trumps policy on Israel won’t be any different.
Go lick orange asshole elsewhere. Or did you forget when he tried to start a war with Iran by assassinating one of their generals on Iraqi land against the Iraqi government's wishes?
Look up how many Trump did that t- oh, wait, he revoked the rule implemented by Obama that demanded drone strike deaths be publicly reported, and outright ignored the legal demands to release the strikes, so you can't.
Fucking dumbass. Keep chowing on Great Orange's literal shit, and maybe he'll deign to grab you by the pussy too.
I’m not American. Trumps track record was a serious improvement for people hold that office, all you have to do is look at the facts and numbers, and ignore how unpleasant he was. I know, I know, Baracks class n charisma made everything seem OK when they were literally murdering a head of state to intentionally destabilize but it wasn’t
Clearly it hasn't stopped you from attaching your lips to Trump's asshole. "Just look at the numbers!" right after being shown that numbers are quite literally not available because of Trump's explicit reversal of previous policy. It's like those pig-fuckers saying "Read the transcript!", not realizing one of the first fucking lines of the document is saying that it's not a transcript. Just utter, brainless cocksucking for a STD-ridden loser.
If you’re going to seriously try to insist that there’s no homophobic subtext in “You have fun sucking off your orange messiah”, then you’re more dishonest than Trump himself.
Voting for fascism is also voting for genocide. You’re choices are a little genocide without fascism or a lot of genocide with fascism. I know what I’m choosing.
From a utilitarian point of view, it probably makes more sense to attempt to minimize suffering rather than opting out of the decision and thereby passively enable greater suffering.
But hey, it’s the trolley problem all over again, and people hate even thinking about that one.
What an inspiring message. Biden will win for sure if we all make just one lecturing, patronizing post each day. Bonus points if you can find someone who had family killed in Gaza! They need the most reminding that Trump is the real threat.
Sadly, I don’t live in a swing state so it doesn’t matter who I vote for. My vote, whether it be for Biden or a third party, is effectively a protest vote against the state’s electors voting for Trump. I can vote, not vote, vote for a third party; it really doesn’t matter.
Whatever happened to “vote blue no matter who” anyway?
Even though I belong to one political party, I personally always vote on a case-by-case basis, for the best person for the job/country, and not automatically for party.
Shit take. Fascism is never out of the picture and spouting “vote blue no matter who” only pushes the window closer to it. You’ll just say the same thing in 4 years when it’s Trump again or one of his many soundalikes vs another genocidal Zionist wearing a D by their name. Engaging with the 2 party system validates it and it will never be “healthy.”
Not sure what you mean, but it sounds like you just don’t care because it doesn’t affect your choice. I wonder how you will feel if one day your party’s candidate finally crosses your line
or how about we overthrow our shit govt instead of participating in this fucking circus act year after year. also this isnt stupid shit its a genocide you daft cunt
If you coerce/force someone to vote the way you want them to, then can you truly say we live in a free country?
There’s nothing stopping the Democrats from putting someone else up to run against Trump.
And don’t say no one else can be Trump, there’s a whole year still, and it’s going to be the undecided Centrists who decide who wins in any case, so you just need to put someone up that appeals to them mostly.
Nobody is going to tell the sitting president not to run again, that’s a decision he needs to come to all on his own, and if he doesn’t, the DNC will not oppose him.
Nobody is going to tell the sitting president not to run again
Actually if the warning signs were dire enough, the inner democratic party elites would push hard for it. Some are saying that the Cali Gov is already running a stealth run, being ready to jump in if Biden exits.
As a Cali native, Newsom would be worse than Biden. If he ran in a Democratic primary, he might lose California because Democrats here don’t like him that much. If the primary was between him and Biden, I would vote for Biden because he’s less elitist and has a better moral compass. Newsom honestly doesn’t seem to have serious principles beyond political success. He’s a distilled version of what people hate about Democrats.
As a Cali native, Newsom would be worse than Biden. If he ran in a Democratic primary, he might lose California because Democrats here don’t like him that much.
Actually he was doing a lot better until just recently when he started supporting Biden, basically pissing off Californians as he moves to the middle for a national race. But historically he’s had good (for a Governer) ratings.
The survey showed Newsom’s popularity has tumbled this year as he continues to amplify his national profile and campaign outside of the Golden State to support President Biden and attack Republican governors and their conservative political agendas.
.
Newsom honestly doesn’t seem to have serious principles beyond political success
Yeah he does come off is being slick and opportunist, and I hate saying what I’m about to say, but at the same time he’s a politician. /shrug
The kind of person I’d like to vote for never seems to run for office.
Newsom hate isn’t new. There was genuine worry he was going to lose his recall election, replaced by a radical Republican with a plurality of support from only those that voted for his removal. Left wing Democrats who were critical of Newsom united and organized to prevent a fascist rising to power. We put aside our gripes with corpocrats to prevent someone even worse from winning.
California is guaranteed for the Democrats in the modern era, so we usually sit on the sidelines of the fight for the presidency and hope other states make the right call. However, the recall race showed that we were also willing to hold our nose and vote for the lesser of two evils.
That’s part of why I get so frustrated by the anti voting shit. Biden is more of a genuine human being than Newsom, yet people fall for accelerationist propaganda. They delude themselves into thinking that not voting will strengthen the left when the opposite is true. The unreliability of young, left wing voters reinforces the establishment bias of not appealing to them. If they won’t even turn out for Bernie in the 2020 primary, why rely on them?
The survey showed Newsom’s popularity has tumbled this year as he continues to amplify his national profile and campaign outside of the Golden State to support President Biden
Any governor in any state always gets some hate, but Newson popularity’s gone down allot just recently because of his support for Biden and his move towards the center for a possible national run.
There was genuine worry he was going to lose his recall election, replaced by a radical Republican with a plurality of support from only those that voted for his removal.
In California? Highly doubtful (the italicized part).
I was here, and I saw that the local news pushed that angle (probably for ratings) but the people in the streets weren’t really saying that.
They delude themselves into thinking that not voting will strengthen the left when the opposite is true.
I actually agree with this, but, I think the nation should come before ideology, and definitely for party. And at the end, you have to do what you think is right, not what is best for a particular organization.
Bottom line, I don’t believe Biden is physically and mentally able to hold the office for another four years. He should leave with the thanks of a grateful nation for steering us away from Trump, and not cling on for another four years.
Give me another Democrat to vote for, and I’ll happily do so, or a good/decent centrist Republican for that matter. The choices we have to choose from these days are horrible.
I get the physical part of Biden being unfit, but not the mental part. I’ve not seen any evidence of his age making him less intelligent or mentally. He’s not physically well, but whenever someone says he’s senile, I automatically assume they don’t know what they’re talking about. “Senile” is not synonymous with “out of touch.”
With the recall, concern wasn’t just coming from some rando or only Democratic partisans. I heard it from respected political scientists. They thought Newsom was likely to win, but there was still great risk of a Republican governor getting elected without popular support. It’s how Arnold Schwarzenegger, a moderate Republican, managed to get elected. The Governator never could have won a Republican primary, and didn’t even win the popular vote. If it weren’t for serious campaigning in the last few months, the recall could have been close.
Newsom always had majority approval, but the concern about the recall came because people were only lukewarm on him. He isn’t an exciting candidate, which is what the left claims to want. Like I said before, Biden seems more genuine about his morals and principles than Newsom. Newsom is more of what the left hates than Biden.
I get the physical part of Biden being unfit, but not the mental part. I’ve not seen any evidence of his age making him less intelligent or mentally.
The regular main news goes out of its way not to show him being in that state, for obvious reasons, but there are moments caught on camera. Not only because they help support him, but what it would mean for Americans and their worry factor if they thought their current president was incapable of doing the job.
He’s not physically well, but whenever someone says he’s senile, I automatically assume they don’t know what they’re talking about.
That’s honestly kind of insulting to say that, and it shows a lack of awareness on your own part. You’re making one hell of an assumption that people aren’t informed and that they’re making a diagnosis without putting any thought behind it.
“Senile” is not synonymous with “out of touch.”
Also, it’s not binary, we’re not talking about perfectly sane or completely senile, there’s a range in between, and there are moments of clarity, and moments of not clarity.
{Comments about Newson’s unpopularity.}
I’m not going to hash this out detail by detail, but just say that you and I must have lived in different California’s, because as a native, I didn’t see what you’re describing.
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There are other Democrats that could run against Trump and have a better chance of success.
Finally, there are literal medical tests that he could take that test for mental competence. If he took those tests from a trusted source, and passed them, then that would be good enough for me. It’s not the literal age, it’s the ‘mileage’, that’s the determining factor of capability.
That’s honestly kind of insulting to say that, and it shows a lack of awareness on your own part. You’re making one hell of an assumption that people aren’t informed and that they’re making a diagnosis without putting any thought behind it.
I’m not out of line in thinking that people can’t diagnose Joe Biden of being mentally unfit. People couldn’t definitively diagnose Trump with narcissistic personality disorder, and he didn’t have a known disorder that could interfere in a diagnosis. Biden has a well documented stutter, making it hard for any observer to parse his communication disorder from cognitive impairment.
People who are informed would recognize this, and even those willing to diagnose politicians from TV appearances would need solid examples of abnormal behavior that could only be explained by cognitive impairment. I don’t take armchair diagnosis seriously because I have some expertise in psychology. People want a reason to have someone other than Biden, so they assume mental disability can be determined by the public. I don’t think we can with the info available. Gut feelings will just reinforce your biases.
People who are informed would recognize this, and even those willing to diagnose politicians from TV appearances would need solid examples of abnormal behavior that could only be explained by cognitive impairment. I
I’m aware of that condition, I’ve heard/seen it before. Still, I’ve also seen other things.
You’re assuming they are mutually exclusive, that if you have a stutter, you can’t have mental cognizance problems, and that’s not true at all.
As I mentioned before, if he took a legal mental capacity test and passed it then that would alleviate my personal worries, but I don’t see that happening, at least I haven’t heard them speak of it.
It’s not centrists who decide elections by choosing a candidate, it’s the people fed up with the system who decide elections by choosing whether or not to show up for the vote.
It’s not centrists who decide elections by choosing a candidate, it’s the people fed up with the system who decide elections by choosing whether or not to show up for the vote.
Well I speaking towards from the pool of people who actually show up to vote, decide the vote. Not the no shows.
These days the two sides are ‘baked in’, so it’s going to be the undecided middle that decides.
I’m assuming that if the Democrats choose somebody else besides Biden, that the younger voters have more of a chance of showing up to vote, than with Biden.
No, it is never the middle that decides elections in the US. Democrats win when turnout is high, and Republicans win when turnout is low.
Know how AOC won her seat from Pelosi’s presumed successor who was considered unbeatable? She focused her campaign on unlikely voters. When she actually spoke to those people, they showed up to vote. That’s the path to victory for Democrats.
Hillary dominated with moderate voters in 2016. She was also an uninspiring elitist which led to terrible turnout. Biden wasn’t much better, but four years of Trump drove record breaking turnout,band Biden won.
It’s all about energy and engagement. Biden sure isn’t going to bring that next year, but maybe there is enough anti-Trump sentiment left to drive turnout. Of course Trump might not be the candidate. I think Biden might beat DeSantis, but not a slightly more obscure candidate like Nikki Haley.
You are right about the energy level scenario, but I wasn’t speaking towards that. I’m assuming that unless a candidate really screws up that everyone will come out to vote, since we’re very much in a party warish voting mode these days.
I was speaking about what the size and a large turnout vote, the people who are not already baked in for one party or another, always vote just for one party, and when there is a large turnout.
Basically everyone else, the centrists, those are rarely vote, those who literally jump back and forth and decide on a case by case basis based on the individual running in every election, etc.
America isn’t that free of a country. Democrats were always going to run their incumbent. The time to choose a left wing candidate was the 2020 primary, which is why I was devastated when Biden won. I knew we would be stuck with him for 8 fucking years. The left didn’t turn out enough in that primary, and the establishment went with one of the worst choices.
The fact that there isn’t some popular Democratic alternative at this point means it will not happen. Biden has been the most left wing president in over half a century, and none of his shitty decisions have been due to his age. Organize with the DSA or promote left wing Democrats if you’re fed up with the establishment. Recognize that becoming cynically apathetic makes you a pathetic asshole, not a person who’s better than those that try.
The greatest support Trump could ever receive in 2024 are democrats running Biden.
But yeah, if Biden loses it will be the fault of progressives who didn’t fall in line, not the establishment for running awful candidates.
History continues to repeat itself. It’s always Progressive’s fault, never Democrats. Even when checks notes, Hillary Clinton lost to Donald Trump. Nobody blamed the moderates for nominating her. They all blamed the Progressives for not ‘falling in line.’
Were… were the moderates not going to fall in line behind Bernie? Hmm. Hopefully you can start to see what a crapshoot this all is and how you’re doing your part perpetuating it.
I’ll vote for democrats when they run candidates that represent me and the moderates can just ‘fall in line’ because they’re so afraid of republicans.
In the two party American system its a choice between two devils. Right no thats looking like Biden vs Trump. Not choosing one of these devils is a vote for the devil you preferred even less. Its a shitty system sure but for now its what we have. Are these two devils really equally bad from your perspective?
If people supporting the lesser evil don’t want to end up with the greater evil, then they should run candidates who are good. Trump won the presidency because people nominated one of the worst candidates in history over someone who was legitimately a good option.
This isn’t that difficult. We don’t solve these problems because we don’t want to.
You can keep doing your part to perpetuate a system that caused George Washington to never speak to Thomas Jefferson again, but I’m done.
If you have a problem with me, tell everyone who supports the lesser-evil it’s their fault. As soon as they start supporting someone good, I will join them.
If they cannot do that, then that is a tacit admission that they would prefer to not have my support.
I voted for Clinton in 2016 as the lesser of two evils. She lost. Maybe the Democratic party should listen when voters are telling them their candidate is shit.
I don’t need a historical precedent. This is a democracy. The votes are not owed. The votes must be won. If 4% is the number who are telling you something and you can’t win without that 4%, it might behoove you to pay attention to what they’re telling you.
I didn’t downvote you. It’s almost like other people exist in the comment section and can vote.
I don’t give a fuck about downvotes. I care about people taking negative action toward society, convinced it’s the right thing to do, with zero argument. Enjoy your trump vote
Do what you need to do of course, but know it will backfire. If enough idealistic people like you refuse to vote for the Democrat then we are at risk of losing what democracy we have had for a much worse system. Remember, Trump was happy to put kids in cages.
The greater of the evils would happily seek to make me go round out my trans friends and kill them, then later seek to get my white friends to round me up and kill me after that’s done. I’m really happy you feel you have the luxury of moral superiority, but that doesn’t matter here at the endgame.
The lesser of two evils is currently arming, funding, giving military planning and operational guidance to, and vetoing UN resolutions for an apartheid state that has bombed thousands of women and children in the last two months. A state that has 2+ million people living in a squalid hellhole somewhere between a ghetto and a concentration camp. Where the majority of people are now displaced, lack food, and clean water. Where there are likely still thousands of bodies decaying under rubble all paid for with our tax dollars.
Worst case scenario I’ll end up in a mass grave here too. But I’m not going to actively vote for it to happen to someone else so that it won’t hypothetically maybe happen to me.
As I said, I am happy for your comfortable position (mental or otherwise) to be so noble. I can’t help change the world if I’m dead or in work camp, and honestly helping the marginalized in my community already takes all the effective energy I can muster. I guess since I can not hold all of the world’s sins at hand, I must defer to you and grab a shovel?
Dems and repubs will never change the laws to weaken their power and strengthen 3rd parties. Full stop. Waiting for it to happen is foolish. Abandon the evil.
It’s not even douche vs turd sandwich at this point. It’s a dead horse vs the biggest traitor to the US in modern history. It’s a single vote system. Both sides think this and somehow one actually believes the only possible vote is for the felon. Everything is broken and I’m not going to perpetuate it. I wish I could illegally immigrate to northern Europe and get free everything. Too bad I’m a highly educated US citizen which means I need a matching high skilled job, several years, and a couple hundred thousand euros.
Look, this is the system we have and it sucks, but the choices are “weak candidate” vs “evil candidate that is likely going to try to destroy our democracy.”
Voting third party means voting for the second guy, which is going to make our shit system even worse.
no we’re not. You’re both right. You’re right that you are absolutely allowed to not vote for someone if you don’t feel like that Person is representing you.
But just know that by not Voting for Biden, you are making it easier for Trump to win. This is just the way the System works. There is no Opinion to be had about this, this is just Fact.
My distinction is that the blame should be put on those voting for the ‘lesser-evil’ to maintain a negative peace instead of those fighting for a greater good.
Blame everyone who voted for, checks notes, Hillary fucking Clinton to guarantee a Trump presidency just so Bernie couldn’t fuck the ruling class.
It’s their fault, not ours.
The lesser evil is still evil. Good people aren’t bad for not going along with it.
When the lesser of two evils becomes lesser of two genocides we can either accept this is a stupid strategy that does not and has not worked across decades, or double down and accept everything that comes because of the strategy, like Trump.
We are civilians, we do not get to change the system, we don’t even get to recall our federal reps after the election. We can vote once every year or so and that’s it. Either keep doing what got us here or try something new but your power ends at the ballot unless you have the time and money to basically stalk politicians.
There will never be a good time to abandon lesser evilism, and there will always be an evil that could win. In fact by nature of lesser evils, the winner must be evil. The best time to break away is whenever you can convince yourself to do so. For many people genocide is a hard line and they are realizing this. It’s hard to fault someone for trying something new when the old way bore genocidal fruit.
There are multiple states and territories for which the margin of victory for presidential elections has never been so slim that their state flipping would have ever effected the race. Its hilarious watching centerests get mad when something like less than 20% of the country has any material leverage on how it shakes out.
Bernie would have challenged the billionaire classes power and hoarding of wealth. The democrats knew he was a slam dunk against trump, but chose to risk losing the election in favor of protecting the status quo.
Especially since it’s a lie that they’re moderate. If you’re taking a global view, they’re actually right-wing. The moderate, centrist positions are what Bernie was advocating. The Overton Window in US politics has moved so far to the right it’s ridiculous.
If you vote 3rd party, it is absolutely a vote for trump. The reason this is said over and over is because history has born it out as 100% how it works. Stick your fucking head in the sand and be smug and self righteous all you want. Reality will remain intact
The U.S has a huge number of legal agreements, treaties etc with Israel that go back decades. I'm pretty sure that they give a sitting president a lot of room to play with that he doesn't have with a relatively new arms deal like the Ukraine one.
If you were actually reading the news, you’d know that Biden has found creative ways to continue to aid Ukraine, and that has not stopped as of today. The US is still heavily backing the Ukrainian war effort.
“Three decades ago, the newly independent country of Ukraine was briefly the third-largest nuclear power in the world.
Thousands of nuclear arms had been left on Ukrainian soil by Moscow after the collapse of the Soviet Union in 1991. But in the years that followed, Ukraine made the decision to completely denuclearize.
In exchange, the U.S., the U.K. and Russia would guarantee Ukraine’s security in a 1994 agreement known as the Budapest Memorandum.”
I don’t want to sound like I’m defending Biden, but I don’t know why people find this surprising. I’ve only been paying attention to politics for about 30 years, but he’s been saying this loudly and proudly for as long as I can remember.
Maybe people are just now noticing because it suddenly matters more than it used to. It definitely hits different when Israel is actively attempting a genocide, and it feels to me to be in pretty fucking terrible taste to beat that particular drum right now, but people are acting like this just came out of left field. He has been absolutely consistent about calling himself a Zionist for decades. It really shouldn’t have come as a shock.
Maybe people didn’t realize he’s a Catholic? Or thought that meant something other than implicit commitment to Zionism? Seems kind of hard to believe tbh
Basically its to do moreso with post wprld war 2 politics. Basically after the war and what happened in the concentration camps came to light (I know there was more but I aint making a list) a lot of people implicitly or explicitly supported Israel. This fact bled over into Catholic doctrine cause suprise suprise the organization of old fucks are old.
I suspect now that the holocaust is fading from living memory such thing shall change, but until the boomers and the silent generation become a minority in politics it will most likely stay the same.
Because belief in the biblical end of times requires it of those who believe in it.
The Catholic church are not the only christian church guilty of this, but they do believe it. The papacy did for a time reject it, politically, but that was a short lived period in the church.
Now, the most influential Catholic in the free world (maybe besides the Pope, if you’re a Catholic) is pro Zionism.
I have no idea what the dude is smoking. The Catholic church is explicitly against zionism. They wanted Jerusalem to be an international city.
Pope Pius X stated "We cannot prevent the Jews from going to Jerusalem—but we could never sanction it. The soil of Jerusalem, if it was not always sacred, has been sanctified by the life of Jesus Christ. As the head of the Church I cannot tell you anything different.
This was over a hundred years ago, and they’ve changed their tone significantly since then.
Here’s a good paper on the modern history of the Catholic church’s approach.
One thing I’ll grant is not all Catholics believe this. But then they also don’t really have an answer to dispensationalism. More on that here (this source is far from unbiased but the historicity is accurate).
Even if he personally has an ideological commitment to Zionism, he should be smart enough to not to say it out loud when it is clearly an issue that supposes a risk to his numbers.
Because old fucks in politics can’t keep their goddamn mouths shut about anything. Gotta pander, but unfortunately there a lot more cameras and microphones at everything they attend, unlike when they were my age.
Can we just pull the reset rope on government and replace all positions with people that represent the average demographic age that will actually see the future we’re building? I honestly do not care what some 80 year old thinks society should be like. When they were my age, black people were still not allowed in schools with them.
Because saying you are a Zionist is simply to say that you believe that the state of Israel has a right to exist and be secure. It's not saying that Israeli policy towards Palestian's isn't a inhumane cluster-fuck.
Thank you. The anti semitism on here is actually terrifying. Either there are a lot of people who don't realize what they are saying, or they truly are anti semites just waiting to come out of the closet.
Luckily, they are not the majority in the real world. It seems to be highschool and university students who do not understand the implications of what they are saying.
Its absolutely not. Neither is suggesting (for example) that Israel is committing war crimes. But you can be extremeky critical of Israel and still think it has a right to exist, in line with long-stamding US foreign policy and the U.N efforts to find a two-state solution. Anyone who supports a two-state solution is a Zionist, by the dictionary definition. And that includes Biden - and me.
The difficulty is that the term 'Zionism' comes wiith a lot of extremely unpleasant shit associated with it.
Yeah, go fuck youself. Im fine with Jews (atleast as an ethnicity id probably punch an orthodox one) but Israel aint representative of all Jews. And frankly Israel is as low as Russia in my books at this point, which is to say id cover every military instilation in white phosphorus and hang their fucking leaders.
An apartheid ethno-state should not exist, no exceptions. Frankly speaking im of half the opinion to scatter the fuckers for a third time if they want keep playing fascist.
I'm not sure why you are telling me to fuck myself. Go ahead and criticize the Israeli government for their policies. I have lots of criticisms for several governments.
I would disagree that they are as bad as Russia. Hamas, a Palestinian governing party, attacked Israel. Of course Israel will defend itself. It's baffling to think otherwise.
The fact that you state you would punch an orthodox jew just because they are an orthodox jew might mean you are not a good person though.
I beg your pardon, but I know a few “orthodox ones” (like women shaving their head and wearing a wig, no electricity, no money and no leaving your house and district at Saturdays etc) and they are nice people ; however I’ve met some who probably eat pork and they’ve been among the most unpleasant people I’ve met.
Also most of Europe consists of “ethno-states”, so let’s please drop that too.
I agree that Israel’s size and extent should be reduced, and they shouldn’t be allowed to police any population but their own.
Opposing apartheid in any context is not antisemitic. Conflating criticism of oppression and occupation as condemning an entire religion is extremely obtuse. Surely you’re not that fucking dense.
I don't know why you have to resort to insults. You're the second person to insult me and I am not really sure why since I only said I'm concerned about anti sentism.
I also beleive Israel has the right to exist and be secure. This is not controversial. Most of the western world officially takes this position. If you want to insult me for that, then I guess go ahead.
The nation of Israel solely exists as a Jewish ethnostate propped up by the western imperialist countries (initially the British Government) after the Nakba of 1948, displacing over 700k Palestinians in a trail-of-tears-esque forced removal from their land. Since then, the Israeli Government has controlled every aspect of Palestinians’ lives such as electricity, drinkable water 97 percent of which is toxic, IDF checkpoints to get to and from different enclosed sections of their own land, etc. The oppressive regime of Israel and the apartheid it imposes on Palestinians is funded heavily by countries like the US, which sends billions every year to support this far-right fascist ethnostate.
The most disturbing thing aside from 70 years of oppression, apartheid, and ethnic cleansing is language that you are repeating justifying genocide that is taking place right now. You think an ethnostate has the right to exist at the expense of ethnic cleansing? So did Nazi Germany. If criticizing Isreal’s atrocities for the past 70+ years offends you, then imagine how offended the families of the 17,000+ Palestinian civilians slaughtered by the IDF in the past couple months alone must feel.
I don’t care if geriatric dinosaurs in power like Joe Biden have supported Israel their entire lifetime. It’s wrong. It is pure evil to fund genocide, it is pure evil to fund apartheid, and the only solution forward is a secular one-state solution in a similar fashion to the ending of apartheid in South Africa. It may never happen in my lifetime, but it starts with ceasefire and continues by ending financial ties to war crimes, a tall order for Americans.
That won't happen with Hamas in charge. They are literal terrorists. Their entire purpose is to kill Jews, even at the cost of their own people. Maybe you think the attacks on Israel are justified. I do not.
“Palestinians of all ages are all terrorists and they must be exterminated by the IDF. The slaughter of 17,000+ Palestinian civilians since Oct 7th is actually justified.”
Yeah fuck off, nazi.
I do not condone attacks on civilians no matter who the target is. Stop using one tragedy to justify another.
I disagree that a religious ethno-state has a right to exist. I'm anti-zionist for the same reason I don't like the regimes in charge in places like Iran and Saudi Arabia.
Because the vast majority of Americans believe that a state of Israel has the right to exist in some fashion, which is all that Zionism means.
It does not mean wholehearted support for literally everything its government does, which Biden very much does not have. He and Netanyahu are not exactly friends.
That you and the other comment about this are massively downvoted despite being accurate really shows how Lemmy is changing.
I get it, they may not like what the truth stands for or that there’s nuance here, with POTUS recent words and actions setting a poor standard. The whole situation certainly sucks but so does the knee-jerk reactions on many of these threads.
A president of all people should understand what words mean given context (quite lacking in the U.S right now). It’s quite bold of you to give excuses on behalf of someone who says they are a zionist without even knowing if they were ignorant or deliberately trying to dogwhistle. You might come off as daft if you’re proven wrong.
And? They weren’t downvoting the president, they were pushing down legitimate information that was specifically asked for by a non-American. Historical even.
Not everything is a dog whistle and this isn’t even sly or hidden, he outright admits it and always has. Sheesh.
He’s been saying it for decades (literally), it’s only now that it garners so much attention. Look, I can find 100 reasons to dislike the guy but being consistent isn’t one of them.
I’m not American, can someone explain why Biden does this when his “one job” for 2024 is to not look like a fash?
Is it though? Americans do not really care about foreigners getting killed. A lot are actually in favor of Israel killing people and/or Muslims being killed in general. It’s not a given he will lose more votes than he will gain from ‘moderate’ Republicans. After all Democrat voters will be whipped into line with the ‘but Trump/lesser evil’ argument. This’ sub’s mod has smeared himself up in shit and is going hard at it.
Israel is one USA's major allies. America helped in the creation of the Israeli state. He believes the Jews have the right to their own homeland. These are three likely reasons.
The US didn’t have much to do with the founding of Israel, the UK was the primary colonial sponsor at the time. It wasn’t until a few decades later when the US decided that it was going to need a permanent military presence in the Middle East to ensure the oil flowed that the US became the primary colonial sponsor.
Not sure yet. Maybe a Green Party candidate or Cornel West. I’ve previously tried to vote for the lesser of two evils, but when this is what that entails, it’s not worth it.
It is not the fault of the voters that the democrats can’t put forward a candidate that makes someone who is generally likely to vote Democrat not want to throw up in their mouth. If Trump gets in again that falls squarely on the democrats and Biden for constantly doing abhorrent bullshit like this.
That is such a simplified and reductive view of the way democracy in the states works. This attitude towards your political system over the last few generations is why your country is even in this situation in the first place bud.
You sound like you don't understand first past the post. I fucking hate it but it's the system we live in and it's not going to change anytime soon. We can't even get more than a handful of partially left folks in all of Congress
This person is right. You can openly hate the way the US votes and refuse to be a part of the status quo, but this is how the system works now. If you want your current voting power to have a current impact, then you need to vote in a way that the current system works.
I’m very strongly principled myself, and greatly dislike how petty the voting ideals are. I also greatly dislike how little impact most people have in changing the way we vote. It very much feels like organized systems of corrupt power when you peek into the US system at any angle.
Therefore, if you’re strongly principled like me, I highly recommend that you observe these efforts as different principles:
We should vote in a way that gives us a voice with real impact (present day problems)
We should strive to change and shape both politics and our voting system however possible (present day and future problems)
Make your impact now and for the future. Don’t choose to be silent by not playing the game that is put in front of you. It’s dirty, it’s gross, and it’s political, but it is currently how your voice gets heard. While doing so, also be the change you want to see in the world by pushing for the ideals you are after.
If a new SCOTUS decides that marriage historically and thus always must mean a relationship between a man and a woman, yeah, I'm gonna fucking blame the voters.
He’s held positions antithetical to most of conservatism for quite a long time. Still some things bother me. His religiousity, issues of his personal finances, etc. So I’m still quite undecided. I’ve got 10 months or so to decide.
Yes, please don’t be a single-issue voter. There is no perfection in politics, so don’t pretend that this is the only thing that matters and pursue to make your vote meaningless. A lost vote from you is a vote for them.
“don’t vote for genocide” equals “don’t be a single issue voter” lmao. US is fucked, the lack of morality in the country is laid bare even to people who used to believe in the “good guys” rhetoric
Lol seriously though. My jaw literally dropped reading the comment you just replied to. I’m so glad I don’t live in the states. That attitude is an absolute embarrassment to the rest of the world.
Right, the voting system is bad. I don’t like it, either. However, if the dominating candidates are Biden and Trump, and you voted for lesser Democrat candidate, then Biden doesn’t get your vote. If Biden gets too little votes, then your next president is Trump. You wouldn’t have chosen it explicitly, but it is your implicit vote.
That being said, if Biden has some strong competition and another candidate is appearing favorable, then it makes sense to vote for them. Voting for someone you know is going to lose is just acting in principle without making any impact on the election.
Personally, I believe that Trump would deliver significantly more harm than most candidates. He’s the Republican leader.
I don’t agree with a handful of things that Biden has done. I believe that the situation with Hamas and Israel is much more nuanced than “arm Israel to the teeth.” We’re on the same page with this.
I can decide that I don’t like Biden because of his stance with Israel, and choose to vote for another candidate. Let’s say that the election is extremely close between Biden and Trump. And let’s say that there is a reasonable amount of people like me, who have decided not to vote for Biden.
If enough people do what I would be doing, and vote for a candidate that might get 5% of votes or so, then that’s 5% of the vote that could have gone to defeating Trump. However, because the election was so close, Trump wins.
If you protest the majority candidate in the election, you might as well check the box for your opponent and submit your vote. Voting is a dumb game that shouldn’t be a dumb game, but it is what it is.
Biden has literally said “I am a zionist” and is currently blocking resolutions for an immediate cease fire. He is complicit in a genocide. Do you understand what that is?
If nobody votes 3rd party, nothing changes. Ever. You got so pigeonholled into thinking “these are the only two choices :<” that you would rather vote for a genocide committing president than anyone else.
I say this as someone who’s going to vote third party - Trump and Biden are the only two choices. One of them is going to win, period. I’m voting third party because I know beyond reasonable doubt which one is going to win my state, so I have the privilege of throwing away my vote. I can’t fault someone for voting on a “lesser evil” basis in a swing state.
Maybe it won’t make an impact this election, but if people start voting for third parties regardless, the Democrats would be incentivised to do better and/or to introduce ranked-choice voting.
In any case, people need to stop waiting for elections and to start taking action now.
There certainly are ways to vote for your party that will result in your party being weaker, therefore making the opposing party stronger. Call it whatever you want.
Personally, I believe that Trump would deliver significantly more harm than most candidates. He’s the Republican leader.
I don’t agree with a handful of things that Biden has done. I believe that the situation with Hamas and Israel is much more nuanced than “arm Israel to the teeth.” We’re on the same page with this.
I can decide that I don’t like Biden because of his stance with Israel, and choose to vote for another candidate. Let’s say that the election is extremely close between Biden and Trump. And let’s say that there is a reasonable amount of people like me, who have decided not to vote for Biden.
If enough people do what I would be doing, and vote for a candidate that might get 5% of votes or so, then that’s 5% of the vote that could have gone to defeating Trump. However, because the election was so close, Trump wins.
If you protest the majority candidate in the election, you might as well check the box for your opponent and submit your vote. Voting is a dumb game that shouldn’t be a dumb game, but it is what it is.
Every fucking presidential candidate will continue the US policies that have been in place for decades. That includes Jill Stein, Cornell West, anybody. They will all continue to supply arms to Israel, because no president is going to revolutionize the entire US political system.
You don't stop genocide by hopes-and-dreams voting for an incompetent candidate who has no chance of winning, thus securing the presidency for the party that promises more genocide. That's how you make the problem far, far worse.
You wanna stop genocide? Start with your Representatives and Senators and convince them to forbid the president from taking military action without a formal declaration of war.
"Incompetent" is a stretch. No chance of winning, perhaps, but that's only true because the two major parties continue to work together to make it true. Colluding with a fledgling fascist dictator to lock out other competition and then smirking about "wasted votes" maybe be stabard operating procedure but it shouldn't be.
Trump is a monster. Biden is not a good person. Let's kick then both to the curb and agree to support someone who isn't an objectively terrible person.
You're right; incompetent is a stretch. Some of them probably are, but others are just... I don't know, out of touch with reality? And others are probably there knowing they will lose, but showing up anyway just to make their presence known for one reason or another, whether naive idealism, or cynical attention-grabbing.
I'd love to kick both Trump and Biden to the curb, truly. Well, a little farther than the curb for Trump. But the only way to do that is to change the way the system works. There is no scenario where a) it is realistically possible to elect a 3rd party candidate, and b) a 3rd party candidate, if elected, would have the ability to make any meaningful change to the system.
Remember, we're talking about changing election law here. And who is responsible for changing laws? Not the president. It's the legislature.
If we want something like a viable Green Party or Libertarian Party or whatever, we need to focus on the legislature, not the presidency. If we want to eliminate FTTP winner-take-all elections for the presidency, we need to focus on the legislature, not the presidency.
And believe me, I do want all of that. Which is why the puritanical grandstanding about protest votes by people who don't seem to understand the fundamental rules of US government is so painfully frustrating. If people were half as passionate about actual politics as they are about arguing badly about politics on lemmy, change would be possible. Instead, they are bamboozled time and time again, like clockwork, every four years by political insiders who feed them the notion that a protest vote that help the worst possible candidate is the most meaningful action they can take.
Yep. What's truly disappointing is that the voters in one of those major parties are extremely comfortable being complicit in genocide et al. It is entirely within their power to demand that their own party field someone less terrible... but they do not for reasons that only make sense if one looks at the process as one that values winning over all.
I agree that the system is broken. But the process that favors the two parties need not be used to field terrible candidates. THAT part of the process is 100% the responsibility of those who vote for those parties. If the candidates are terrible, then the blame for that rest solely on their shoulders.
Biden has a terrible history of friendship and collusion with racists, bigots, etc. Currently, he's a genocide apologist. I would LOVE it if the Democrats fielded someone I could get behind. It's not about one issue, it's about asking for a bare minimum level of humanity. "Not a bigoted genocide apologist" should not be a stretch goal.
I don't disagree with your assessment of Biden, but you're saying this like he's not the better choice of the two. Everything you accuse him of is amplified by entire magnitudes with anyone in the GOP.
And let's be real here, Israel has been a central pillar of US policy for generations. There are one or two high-ranking politicians in the entire government who don't support Israel, but they have zero chance of becoming president. Biden is being chosen not because of one belief or another, it's because of his track record and his experience. He is capable of one of the most important jobs of the office, which is working with the rest of the government, even the people who hate you, to get shit done.
The Democrats have a membership of millions. If they find someone who isn't objectively a garbage person, I guarantee they win. You'll still see the "must vote blue" crowd vote D because let's be real, they'll do as they're told every time. And you'll also get the votes of the people who believe in a better world.
Win win, but the millions of D voters will continue to sell the line that they are powerless to sway thier own party.
I don't know who's selling this line you think is being sold. I'll happily vote for a better Democrat than Biden. And I don't know of anybody who is so enamored with Biden that they'd throw a temper tantrum if he wasn't the nominee. I actually don't know what you're arguing here other than saying "a better person than Biden would be better." Which is true, but it's just a tautology.
I'm noting that expecting people to vote for the least bad candidate here is easily rectified by the Dems choosing someone less terrible. The base would vote for a pickle sandwich if it had a blue sticker on it. As such, choosing someone who appeals to swing allies is the right move.
Biden, whatever value he has, does not appear to have that appeal. So if winning is important, Democrats hold the key. Choose someone less repugnant to swing voters.
Again, that's just saying someone better than Biden would be better. I'm not sure who you're trying to convince that wouldn't agree with you.
I expect people to vote intelligently based on the outcome they want. If there's 2 outcomes and they don't want outcome A, they should vote for B. Complaining that B isn't sparkly and written in glitter doesn't change the fact that they don't want outcome A more.
If choices A and B are both bad and team B has full control of who they're fielding, rewarding them for choosing poorly perpetuates the same. If they're too blind or arrogant to see that B is losing them the contest, then that's their own fault.
What a weird take. You're not rewarding anybody. You're choosing who will be the next president. You're making a choice that will affect you and millions of other people.
I said previously I expect people to vote intelligently. You seem to be implying that allowing Trump to win just to spite the Democratic party for choosing Biden is somehow a rational choice.
You brought up blind arrogance.
Imagine being so blind that you fail to see that the outcome of a Trump victory would be devastatingly worse for yourself and for the world. That you'd be supporting an outcome that leads to more and worse genocide, despite that being a "single issue" for you. That's blind.
Imagine being so arrogant that you'd choose the path that leads to more genocide and greater global suffering, despite genocide apparently being a "single issue" for you, simply to punish a political party made up of millions of people because they didn't field the candidate you wanted them to. You said yourself: "The Democrats have a membership of millions." Yet you are the one stamping your feet and threatening that if they choose Biden, you're going to vote against him just to spite them. And help bring about more genocide, despite that apparently being important to you. That's arrogance.
You don't have to like Biden, you just have to prefer the outcome of a Biden victory over the outcome of a Trump victory. It's akin to choosing between lima beans or rusty nails for everyone's dinner. You don't have to like lima beans, but if you are so arrogant to choose the rusty nails for everybody because you don't want lima beans, you're blind to how you will hurt others and yourself.
I'm sorry man, but you need to take a big step back, read everything that you wrote, and apply it to your own position. Then think on the actual outcomes that the two paths before you lead towards.
Aah, the same old "lesser evil" arguments that put us here in the first place.
Trump is a direct result of this abjectly stupid idea that eating shit every 4 years is necessary because Daddy Blue says so. If he wins, its because the Democrats couldn't be bothered to read the room and select a candidate worthy of the presidency.
And there it is. Not voting for Biden is stamping ones feet. The sheer entitled arrogance. Jesus.
You offer me rusty nails or razor blades and tell me the razor blades are beans. No thanks.
And there it is. Not voting for Biden is stamping ones feet. The sheer entitled arrogance. Jesus.
Exactly. You are stamping your feet and exhibiting sheer entitled arrogance.
Your inability to comprehend the logical outcomes of your decisions is seriously disturbing. You've been polite enough and engaged honestly with me, and I appreciate that. But I don't think we're moving in any productive direction so let's end it here.
I'll just leave you with the same words I said before: You need to take a big step back, read everything that you wrote, and apply it to your own position. Then think on the actual outcomes that the two paths before you lead towards.
And you need to take 7 steps back and seriously considered whether you truly believe in democracy... or you value scoring points for "your" team above all else.
But don't take my word for it. Take a look at Biden's polling and tell me again how the reasonable ones are those trying to shove him down the rest of our throats.
If that's the understanding of my position that you came to after this several-days-long conversation, then I'm disappointed in your complete lack of attention to everything I've said.
I thoroughly read and thought about everything you wrote. You failed to convince me, but I at least listened to your position. It's really disappointing you didn't offer the same basic courtesy, and your last comment was the same kind of non-sequitur regurgitated rhetoric that the troll posters in this thread have been using.
Peace out, man. It's a shame we couldn't have a productive discussion.
You think voting for the GOP isn't voting for genocide? On top of handing Ukraine over and tearing out the rights of women minorities and LGBTQ. Consolidating power into the hands of Trump with the 2025 project is somehow "not voting for genocide?"
One of the golden rules in life is you should act like you want everyone to act.
If everyone voted for what they truly wanted and believed in, there would be no more political duopolies.
I know that's easy for me to say because I have proportional representation, but I don't think you should ever try to shame someone for voting with their conscience.
If everyone voted for what they truly wanted and believed in, there would be no more political duopolies.
I agree. However, this is not the reality we live in. If you vote for a candidate that gets 2% of votes, then they will lose, and the leading candidate that represents your party will not get your vote. This gives your political opponents an advantage by your choosing.
That’s the spoiler effect created by a first past the post system. You won’t get to the first result unless you change how voting works. A good way to get there is to start local instead of what most people do which is nothing until federal elections, then whine how the system isn’t giving them good candidates.
Personally, I believe that Trump would deliver significantly more harm than most candidates. He’s the Republican leader.
I don’t agree with a handful of things that Biden has done. I believe that the situation with Hamas and Israel is much more nuanced than “arm Israel to the teeth.” We’re on the same page with this.
I can decide that I don’t like Biden because of his stance with Israel, and choose to vote for another candidate. Let’s say that the election is extremely close between Biden and Trump. And let’s say that there is a reasonable amount of people like me, who have decided not to vote for Biden.
If enough people do what I would be doing, and vote for a candidate that might get 5% of votes or so, then that’s 5% of the vote that could have gone to defeating Trump. However, because the election was so close, Trump wins.
If you protest the majority candidate in the election, you might as well check the box for your opponent and submit your vote. Voting is a dumb game that shouldn’t be a dumb game, but it is what it is.
Yeah he is the lesser of two evils. I think we all know that. The idea is that some people would rather not take part in the farce known as American elections of the lesser of two evils is still going to support genocide.
The idea is that some people would rather not take part in the farce known as American elections of the lesser of two evils is still going to support genocide.
that is not supporting genocide. it’s opposing it.
this is not my standard. my standard is “do i want them to win”. you get to decide on your own standards. i hope your standards don’t allow you to vote for genocide.
I asked an important question that was not designed to be petulant in any way. I’ll be polite and not bother you if you refuse to answer it due to emotional reasons. Thank you for your conversation.
it’s not about emotions. it’s that your “important question” was in fact not asked in good faith. when i gave you a more complete answer than you wanted, you demanded simple yes-or-no answers so you could continue to brow-beat me. framing my response as emotional when, in fact, you are the one showing petulance, is just DARVO.
I have one apple. I can give it to Joe, to Dobald, or to Claudia. I choose to give it to Claudia. So now our count is Joe +0, Donald +0, Claudia +1. You see how Donald’s number didn’t go up, despite not giving the apple to Joe? That’s how it works.
Now I know what you’re going to say: that since I’m not giving the apple to Joe, that really puts him at -1 apple, but the same could be said about Donald, that I’m not giving him the apple either so he would also be at -1. If you argue that not giving the apple to Joe is the same as giving it to Donald, surely that means the opposite is true as well, that not giving the apple to Donald is the same as giving it to Joe.
So maybe instead of blaming everyone but the Democrats for putting forward a candidate who is openly supporting and facilitating an active genocide if Joe loses next year, you start asking why they deserve your apple at all.
Tell you what, since not voting once for Biden is a vote for Trump, how about I don’t vote for Trump a million times, that way it’s a million votes for Biden. Will that make you feel better?
I don’t know what’s stupider. This obvious bad faith nonsense example, or that the very-predictable outcome, seen repeatedly for longer than any human has lived, is of no concern to you whatsoever-- because you have a point to make, consequences-be-damned. Actually I do, it’s the latter.
A more compelling argument might be to just randomly bash your keyboard a few times and click reply. There’s a far greater chance of you winning the lottery than of your protest vote having a positive impact, so why don’t you go buy some tickets?
You’re incorect: what’s stupider is continually pouring your support into “the lesser of two evils,” and thinking that you’re doing anything other than showing them that it’s perfectly OK for them to be evil, since useful idiots like your good self will continue to spout this sort of party rhetoric without stopping to think for two seconds that they are in fact the problem. The reason other parties won’t succeed is because of people like you who refuse to even consider anything outside the status quo and will just blindly check the “D” column no matter how many drone strikes they launch or hospital bombers they sell the missiles to. So while some of us are trying to stop the mindless murder of innocents overseas by whatever tools we may have at hand, you sit there comfortably and tell yourself that you’re the real hero here by throwing your unwavering support behind the “lesser evil.” The parties will definitely change as long as we keep blindly supporting them no matter what their actions, who cares if thousands are being killed in Palestine. As long as no one tries to make any points about the direction our society is headed, it’s all worth it, right?
I’m not American and not the commentor, I’m observing from far away.
I agree, people should vote for the best possible candidate. Even single issue voters. The alternative is worse for this single issue. If I was American, I’d vote strategically like people on this thread are saying.
However
There are Americans that had friends, family members, and colleagues killed in this conflict, and they can’t stomach going to the polls and voting for Biden after how he’s acted throughout this conflict. I won’t hold it against those people for not voting.
I can’t even imagine what it would be like to have that happen and be told “go vote for him anyways”. As true as it might be, it’s not my place.
I’m not concerned with toppling the bipartisan system right now. I’m simply hoping to grow old in a semblance of a democracy. I appreciate your idealism but it is misplaced. The foe (the Fascists) uses your idealism against you, gaining your cooperation along the way. You think you’re opting out because ‘they’re all so equally evil’ but in reality you end up supporting them through your failure to oppose them; the worst of them.
Regarding Milei, isn’t he right-wing and fascist more or less? I’m hoping to have less of that in the world, not more. God help you if you think someone like that is an improvement.
“The vote represents a desperate attempt at something new, come what may,” said Benjamin Gedan, an Argentina specialist from the Wilson Centre. “The option [voters had] was more of the same in catastrophic economic conditions or a radical gamble on a potentially bright future with a lot of downside risk.”
Gedan believed there would be “a lot of buyer’s remorse in Argentina” if Milei pursued even a small fraction of his ideas. Those ideas include legalising the sale of human organs, dramatically slashing social spending, downplaying the crimes of Argentina’s 1976-83 dictatorship, and cutting ties with Argentina’s two most important trade partners, Brazil and China. On the campaign trail, Milei vowed to abolish Argentina’s central bank and dollarise the economy, and brandished a chainsaw intended to symbolise ferocious cuts he believes will help stabilise the economy and “exterminate” rampant inflation.
“Fascism is when less state control”, plus my point is that he is the president while being third party, not the party itself
Also, how will you grow old in a democracy by voting the same two parties that don’t seem to represent anybody? How will a democracy truly exist when they fearmonger you into voting them “or literal Nazis will kill you tomorrow”? The republicans probably do the same but switching Nazi with any other word. It’s the game they want you to play, and they use fear to do so
To say he hasn’t been better than trump is naive. Everything Biden has done that you hate will be done to a greater extent under trump. Remember this is the guy that moved the embassy in Israel to Jerusalem.
Just look at project 2025 to see the truly fascist intentions of trump and republicans at large. Neither are good but they aren’t close to being equally bad.
Uh, Abolishment of Roe v. Wade?! This happened as a result of Trump and the Republicans! The two parties both worship Mamon, that much is true, but there are important differences that should not be glossed over that will have an impact on the lives of everyday American citizens and all the people around the globe that are impacted by our politics which is a huge number of people. You’re painting with too broad a brush and I respectfully ask that you take a deep breath to clear some emotion and think about what I’m saying.
Trump by default. I mean, you might say Jill Stein when she emerges from her cave of irrelevance for her ten seconds of people remembering she exists, but really all you're doing is getting out of the Grand Old Cult's way.
If the Democratic party wants my vote all they have to do is put up a candidate who isn’t onboard with ethnic cleansing and genocide. If that’s too much to ask, and they lose to Republicans, they have no one to blame but themselves.
Whether by action or inaction, if your vote supports Trump getting elected, then you are a Trump supporter, a GOP supporter, and share a portion of the responsibility for the greater destruction and genocide that is brought about by that result.
So in fact, we all do get to blame you and others who support Trump.
I hate the system, and I genuinely sympathize with people who want to vote for their dream candidates.
I just wish they would open their eyes and understand how the system actually works, and how they are being duped by rich, powerful people into actively working against their own goals.
We can change the system by being active politically at the local level. But change will never come by voting in a dream candidate, because even if hypothetically someone like that won the presidency, they would simply be at the mercy of the legislature with zero support from either party. A third party president would be a lame duck before they even swore their inauguration oath.
By your logic if you voted Hillary in the primary that makes you a trump supporter because your vote delivered him a candidate he can beat. You vote shamers are really reaching for insults this time around.
Sure, that tracks. You'd have a share of responsibility for the result of that choice. But as it's much farther removed from the actual election, it would far less responsibility than someone who voted for Jill Stein, or who wrote-in Bernie Sanders, or anyone other than Hillary in the actual eleciton though.
The sad thing is you think I'm insulting you.
I'm not.
I'm trying very hard to help you understand that you've been fooled into acting against your own interests. There's no reason to take it personally or try to come up with some sort of "gotcha" to throw back at me. Especially since I actually agree with what I guess you thought was some kind of slam dunk take-down.
In fact it's extra tragic, because not only are you fooled so thoroughly, but you're also getting defensive about it rather than just listening to what I and others are saying and examining the consequences of that choice. You should be here for conversation, not for meaningless grandstanding and digging your feet deeper into a misunderstanding.
Their statement was totally relevant to this situation. You may not like it, but it was an accurate observation of what centrists expect from progressives.
Their post was a complete non sequitur. And since they deleted their post and had half their other posts in this thread removed by the mods, they clearly weren't here to have a discussion. It's a weird thing for you to defend.
It's obvious you didn't understand the conversation then, because I didn't say that at all, nor am I a centrist. So let's hold off on the accusations of batshit ignorance, yeah?
Like I said to the troll poster above: if you're interested in engaging honestly, let's do this. Otherwise...
It’s more that the third-party spoiler effect is inherent to the first past the post system, so voting your conscience (for a third party) is effectively the same as not voting, and if enough people vote their conscience, it’s effectively like voting for exactly the opposite of what you want.
Yeah, beyond that I was mostly responding to the assertion that “Americans are stupid and easily manipulated.”
No, they are responding to an imperfect system that punishes them for having strong morals. Far from stupid, it’s actually quite rational. The best thing you can do if you care about not having to choose between genocide and even more genocide is get involved in pushing ranked choice voting through ballot measures, lobbying your state legislature, or hell, start with just municipal elections if you think you can get that done.
I suppose that’s because parliamentary parties are much stricter with their membership. A small difference of opinion could lead to the expulsion of a member. US parties can’t really do that, so instead we have caucuses within the parties that vote along party lines most of the time, but differently on some important issues. In a parliamentary system, the caucus members would be expelled and would have to form their own party to have their views represented.
It’s definitely leaning that way… Still, it’s been a while since someone had their ass beaten on the floor of the House or Senate, that seems to happen in Parliament more often. :)
The statement was that Jewish people would not be safe anywhere without Israel
There are Jewish people living safely in many parts of the world, and those people are protected and loved by the communities they live as a part of.
The irony is that the statement was made to Jewish people in such a community outside of Israel. The other bit of irony is that statements like this are further divisions. Divisions that make life unsafe for everyone
There are millions of Jews in Israel (or their children), right now, who are there because they were forcibly expelled from other Arab countries in the Middle East.
Why do you think there's a 3000 year old synagogue in Aleppo, and only around four Jews in all of Syria?
So what, my ancestors built a brick house in Minnesota 180 years ago and its still there, I live in Califoria. Also did the Jews even exist as an identity back 3000 years ago? Pretty sure they had just barely split from the cananites by that point and were still largely isolated to the southern mountains.
I would like to bring a counter point for you to consider.
When I put all my money in a bank, I have a guaranty from a regulatory body /government that in case of bankruptcy I will still get my money back, even if the bank goes bust.
This is similar for Jews around the world - Israel is an insurance policy. If your local country starts leaning towards fascism and looking for a scapegoat (which is usually Jews), then you’d have the option to go to Israel immediately. Because historically they’ve seen and still see how refugees are being treated and not welcome globally.
If your local country starts leaning towards fascism and looking for a scapegoat (which is usually Jews), then you’d have the option to go to Israel immediately.
That’s a great plan, since Jews are completely safe and definitely not in any danger in Israel.
I didn’t say it’s a great plan. But it’s better than no plan.
I don’t understand all the down votes. You don’t have to agree with it, it doesn’t even mean that I agree with it… But I just wanted to shine some context to why it’s not ironic to many Jews.
timesofisrael.com
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