Ok, I have to ask. How would you apply this to any other conflict. For example the Allies fighting against Germany. Where did the German civilians fall in the spectrum of evil. Was fighting Germany justified, knowing that German civilians might suffer? If so, how is this situation different?
Strategic bombing - ie, the indiscriminate bombing of populated areas - was ineffective and immoral, and people at the time condemned it as such, and they were right to do so. It was also wrong to use Japanese cities as testbeds for nuclear arms. There was no real strategic reason to do it.
So like… don’t do that? Maybe Israel shouldn’t do that, because fucking obviously?
Like yes, there were bad states on the allied side in WWII as well. You can see that in how they conducted themselves after the war was over, and at many points before that. In fact the policies of the Nazis were directly inspired by US genocides.
You’re not going to trip me up by bringing up the Nazis. I said states are the enemy of the people, and I meant it.
None of what I said should be construed as support for the fascist axis powers, that should just be obvious, but I’m sure I have to say it, because people are just going to try it on.
What? Why? Where did I say that? What the fuck are you talking about?
I asked how this conflict was different and you started talking about a completely different topic like stategic bombing. But Israel isn't using strategic bombing, they're using artillery and missiles. Just like how the allies did against Berlin and other German cities when fighting the Germans. So how is this different?
The difference is that Israel has been colonising the west bank for over 70 years. They are the aggressors. They are more analogous to the Nazis in WWII for that reason anyway.
And yes, just like there were bad actors on the allied side in WWII, Hamas is also a bad actor.
I’m sure this was necessary to get to the extremely small Hamas bunker that was surgically implanted in his skull, because those bastards were using him as a human shield.
That kid was two years old. Must’ve been a really small bunker.
Seems like a really common tactic, apparently the rates of Palestinian children being shot by the IDF was increasing before this latest situation started: hrw.org/…/west-bank-spike-israeli-killings-palest…
Yup, good thing Israel left and this couldn’t possibly be happening.
I read the BBC article on the recent shooting, you're right, it's tragic and wrong. Two gunmen shot up a settlement and then started exchanging fire with an IDF unit and the child was shot in the crossfire. This is awful, but has nothing to do with Palestine being an independent nation since this happened in the west bank, not the Gaza strip, which as I understand it, are different.
Also, this article (which is the only one I can access) seems to be posted in bad faith, the whole tragic situation started by a bunch of people opening fire on random Israeli citizens. But there's no mention of this at all when you're decrying Israeli violence. And the same for your talk about "Strategic Bombing", that no one is doing, or the political situation in the west bank (which is different from the Gaza strip).
Wow, incredible that the IDF just happens to accidentally shoot dozens of Palestinian children every year. Tragic. Surely there can be no assignment of blame here.
And I don’t bother explaining what’s wrong with Hamas because this thread isn’t full of Hamas apologists, it’s full of Israel apologists.
Honestly that's a pretty strange thing to say about one of history's most complicated and oldest conflicts. If it was as simple as random dudes online think it is, don't you think this issue would have been somehow resolved by now?
Both the Israelis and the Palestinians have tribal roots in the region dating back thousands of years.
The region also has religions significance to all three of the big western religions.
And to make it even more complicated, the region has been under the control of multiple empires over the last 3000 years: waring tribes, Egyptians, Assyrians, Romans, Byzantines, the second Muslim caliphate, the Ottomans, the British, and I'm sure I'm skipping more. Israel and Palestine as nations where effectively created at around the same time post WW1 (see the Mandate for Palestine and the Balfour Declaration).
So sure.. It's possible that you're so much smarter than everyone else that one of the world's oldest conflicts is trivial to you, OR, just maybe it's a little bit more complicated than you and some other people let on...
“Were there not an Israel the United States of America would have to invent an Israel to protect her interest in the region.”
Biden has reiterated this sentiment since this situation has started. His stance is completely unchanged. He admits openly that it is a power play, so any posturing about a “sacred bond” or whatever is bullshit.
It is power politics. The US is propping up Israel as a projection of power, and with that Israel has become ever more fascist without any accountability, and they have perpetrated a genocide because they have the power to, just like any state would in those circumstances, because they are all sociopathic institutions. That’s it. There’s nothing special about the Jewish nature of the state, it’s got nothing to do with religion, that’s just an excuse that gets laid over the top of what is simple exploitation.
It’s a land grab and a genocide, and Hamas was propped up by Israel to serve their interests at the time. In fact you could say they’re still serving Israel’s interests, because Israel the state has no real interest in protecting their own civilians, they only want their land grab.
The “it’s complicated” bullshit is just there to muddy the waters. It’s a lazy handwave to cover the fact that you can’t excuse genocide.
The Balfour Declaration, which put the creation of Israel into play, was created by the British during WW1, at a time when the entire region was under the control of the Ottoman Empire.:
His Majesty's Government view with favour the establishment in Palestine of a national home for the Jewish people, and will use their best endeavours to facilitate the achievement of this object, it being clearly understood that nothing shall be done which may prejudice the civil and religious rights of existing non-Jewish communities in Palestine, or the rights and political status enjoyed by Jews in any other country.
It's obvious that Israel is the strongest and most strategically important ally that America has in the region today, nobody can deny that. Just like nobody can deny that Hamas, the ruling entity of Gaza for almost 15 years, is allied with and strategically important to Iran, Russia, and many of Israel and America's other big geological adversaries. Iran supported Hamas' recent terrorist attack on Israel because they understood that they, an Islamic theocracy, would benefit from the chaos of what appears to some as a religious war. Similarly, Russia wants chaos in the region in a desperate attempt to divert western military resources away from supporting Ukraine.
To me, none of that makes the situation simpler.
As for the clip you've linked, the first Arab-Israeli war was more than 20 years prior to that. And, taken in context, Biden was arguing against the Reagan administration's plans to arm Saudi Arabia, and to that point I'm not really convinced that he was wrong...
As for claims of genocide, I'm afraid that cuts both ways:
The original Charter identified Hamas as the Muslim Brotherhood in Palestine and declares its members to be Muslims who "fear God and raise the banner of Jihad in the face of the oppressors". The charter states that "our struggle against the Jews is very great and very serious" and calls for the eventual creation of an Islamic state in Palestine, in place of Israel and the Palestinian Territories,[3] and the obliteration or dissolution of Israel.
The Day of Judgment will not come until Muslims fight the Jews, when the Jew will hide behind stones and trees. The stones and trees will say, 'O Muslim, O servant of God, there is a Jew behind me, come and kill him.' Only the Gharkad tree would not do that, because it is one of the trees of the Jews.
So yeah, if you think the modern world's oldest geopolitical conflict is simple, then you're either way smarter than everyone else or you're mentally reducing the problem until it confirms your existing biases. Personally I think it's more complicated than you're making it out to be, which is why it hasn't been settled by 100 years of diplomacy and war.
You tried to bury this in details, but your entire explanation boils down to “US sponsors their puppet and the US’s enemies sponsor the enemies of the US’s puppet”. It’s a proxy war. That’s really about it.
You literally just admitted that it is power politics but you tried to pretend like that complicates the situation in any way.
Yes, there are more details, there are lots of things being said by different actors who all have their own idiosyncratic beliefs and ideas, many of which are fueled by ongoing conflict, but the reason the conflicts in this part of the world are so intractable doesn’t come down to those details. It comes down to the fact that the middle east has reserves of oil that are strategically significant. They are in the middle of a geopolitical tug of war.
Messy doesn’t mean complicated.
And none of this excuses the wholesale slaughter of civilians. That part in particular is not at all complicated.
Difference is, Israel isn’t meant to represent palestinian people, Hamas is. And they are doing a great job of it, if their job is getting civilians killed.
Edit: Just think about the massive protests against Netanyahu earlier in the year. Do those show how in tune the Israeli government and people are? No. But the very fact they could protest mostly peacefully differentiates Israel’s treatment of its population from all of its neighbours.
Yeah… but they’re still bombing civilians. The “human shields” thing makes no sense. Israel was bombing apartment buildings before they helped create Hamas.
Doesn’t change the fact that in this conflict, the IDF are trying to get Hamas targets with their attacks. And that the Hamas are the ones that built their infrastructure next to civilians, that Hamas did kill Israeli civilians indiscriminately and that the Hamas knew full well, that by building their infrastructure next to civilians and by mindlessly raiding Israeli territory, the IDF would respond and kill palestinian civilians while doing so. Israel wants to crush Hamas. Hamas wants as many people to die as possible, so that Israel is made a pariah internationally.
Right… so it’s so predictable that the IDF would bomb civilians that any provocation makes the provoker guilty of their murders?
So basically the IDF are so irredeemable in your eyes they’re just a force of nature or something?
Again, you’re also ignoring the fact that Israel created Hamas.
And Israel SHOULD be a pariah. The only reason they’ve gotten away with this genocide for so long is because they’ve had unconditional US state backing.
What do you think Israel should do then with Hamas? Let them get away with murdering more than 1200 Israelis? Conduct small-scale incursions at best? The fact of the matter is simply that the situation was fucked long before and the palestinian civilians were in accute danger of becoming collateral the moment the Hamas broke into Israel. If you are looking for a clearer good-guy bad-guy situation, look to the westbank. There, the Israeli settlers are clearly the ones in the wrong.
All the outrage in the world won’t stop Israel from continuing to bomb Hamas in Gaza. On the other hand, Abbas and Fatah got Palestine the recognition of most UN member states. And unlike Hamas, Fatah isn’t getting their civilians killed in droves.
I’m not looking for a clearer good-guy-bad-guy situation. I said in my first comment that both Hamas and Israel are enemies of the people.
I don’t think either of them “should” do anything, but since “should” doesn’t factor into either of their decisions, it’s irrelevant anyway. They’ll keep oppressing people until they are stopped by organised resistance, just like it is with any oppressive system.
Why do you say Israel and Hamas? Not Likud. Not otzma Yehudit. Just Israel. All of Israel is an enemy? But only Hamas when it comes to Palestine. What about the PLO? Are they fine? Yesh Atid? Or is it really just only Hamas but all of Israel?
So again, the entire state of Israel? The ones elected in free and fair elections? Don't get me wrong. I am not a fan of Likud and I loathe ben Gvir and Otzma Yehudit. Just all of it. And only Hamas. The group that won what was called a free and fair election by the EU and the Carter Center and continues to be ahead in opinion polling since they have stopped elections. What are you defining as "Israel the State"?
Why is just the word “elections” enough for you? You need to explain how that makes the government actually speak for the people.
When was the last time you even felt like you had the option of voting for someone who actually represented you? When was the last time you thought the government was working on your behalf in any way? Representative democracy is a farce, it only offers us the choice of a handful of people palatable to the state, and the elected “representative” is not truly representative of the people, because that’s a fundamentally flawed concept.
An election every couple of years to appoint a generalised, non-recallable ruler is just a smokescreen over the fact that we have a permanent political class that answers almost exclusively to capitalist oligarchs.
It makes sense because it doesn’t violate Geneva conventions. If there are combatants hiding among civilians their deaths are 100% on said combatants. What do you expect Israel to do? After a terrorist attack that is equal to 17 (!) times the scope of 9/11 just to shrug it off and send more humanitarian aid to be pillaged by Hamas?
100%. People here scream “genocide” and “war crimes” but have no idea what these words mean. The “friends” of Palestine here make even Reddit look normal.
I mean, Hamas took power by killing Palestinian civilians. They don’t represent anyone and they openly say they will martyr civilians.
The Palestinian National Authority (Fatah) was the democratically elected government of Palestine before 2007. Hamas staged a coup and executed Fatah officials, which is why Gaza and the West Bank are separate entities today.
Hamas is as much a state as Al-Qaeda. They’re a terrorist group that seized power by way of murder and have openly declared they intend to use their citizens as shields and martyrs.
They’re not a state. They’re a terror cell that deserves to be eliminated. Unfortunately their own admitted tactics of using civilians as shields means that civilians will be killed.
So where is Israel’s responsibility there, in sponsoring terrorists? Or do we pretend notiing happened before the last few weeks because then we can sort of pretend Israel has no culpability, you know, if we squint and try to avoid looking at the bombing of civilians?
Yes they are. By their own admission in this article.
Hamas by their own damn admission uses civilians as shields and intends to martyr them.
Your article leaves out the fact that Israel funded and supported several Islamic organizations at the time in both Gaza and the West Bank. One became a terrorist institution.
Take the whole history into account. After the six day war, Israel was in the position that they needed all the support they could get. So they supported anyone that opposed the PLO, which was sponsored by Egypt and Fatah. Because that’s who they just were attacked by.
Israel funded dozens of Islamic organizations that were opposed to Fatah, including mosques and schools. Hamas came out of one of them.
That article has such a stupid take. It takes tiny pieces of quotes from a couple of ex-Israeli officials and with one of them is clearly omitting context. Did Israel permit Islamist groups to do stuff like build mosques and have charities? Yes. Did he also say, but it is not mentioned in the article, that they were completely peaceful at the time and that Israel didn't want to be viewed as attacking Islam? Also yes.
See, what you are saying is that Israel created Hamas by not using more oppression to stop these groups at a time when they were not attacking Israel, but the PLO was. And that is just such a simple naive take that it is ridiculous. Yeah if Israel could redo things, they might have decided that was a good idea. But then again, what if it just caused more attacks from the surrounding countries after they were claimed to be "attacking Islam." Then would we also blame Israel for those attacks due to them repressing the Islamist movements?
It even does the same by using cherry picked foresight about Afghanistan. It entirely ignores the situation in Afghanistan and just implies that the US caused Al Qaeda. Things just aren't that simple. It's entirely possible that had the US and other countries not interfered in Afghanistan that the soviet union would've lasted longer and Afghanistan might've been another Chechnya.
At the time, Israel was having to fight against the PLO. They were not fighting against the religious Islamic groups. And knowing the history of the time period and the politics in the region, the very religious groups were not nearly the force that they are now. So they made choices for reasons that absolutely made sense at the time. And we have no way of knowing how things would be different if they made different choices.
We can say that places that aren't Israel still have issues with the Muslim brotherhood or are friendly with them all over the middle east. And Israel certainly didn't create the Muslim Brotherhood. And if Israel didn't exist and it was all a Palestinian state with a secular government, it isn't a stretch to say that they would be in that area too, calling for an Islamist government. As they have done in Jordan, Syria, Egypt, Iraq, and more.
This is a lie. Hamas won the vote. The EU, UN, and the Carter Center all called those elections free and fair. If anything, Hamas was an underdog given that Israel, in collaboration with Fatah, kept arresting the politicians in Hamas as they defined Hamas a terrorist organization. Fatah and Israel wanted to delay the elections, but with the encouragement of the US (GWB in particular who felt Hamas would definitely not win), they decided to keep them as they were. Stop making things up to fit your narrative. Hamas still typically wins the popular vote in polling done since then. You have a fucking computer. Just google it. It's all there in black and white.
I mean they did have conflicts with Fatah. But the biggest fights weren't until after they won the election.
Uhmm. Are you aware that Israel is #4 on the World Happiness Index this year? It’s the happiest non-scandinavic country in the world. You don’t get there by being “enemy of the people”.
Wow, extremely wealthy country propped up by imperialism has a high happiness rating compared to extremely poor countries being stomped on by that same imperial war machine.
You must understand that you cannot explain it away like that. Palestine perhaps you might, but funnily enough, it’s the happiest country of those four.
Egypt’s, Jordan’s and Lebanon’s bad standings in the happiness scale cannot in any way be explained away by Israel. Just because you lost several wars against an enemy several decades ago isn’t enough to explain any of it. So it’s all on them. As I said, Palestine’s bad situation might be explained by Israel, but again, it’s the happiest of those four.
You didn’t even try to explain in your first comment how “happiness” has anything to do with this.
You said that both Hamas and Israel are the enemies of the people. I disproved that notion by noting how Israel is #4 happiest country in the world. My apologies, I thought the inference was obvious.
I didn’t blame it on Israel, I said the imperial war machine. Israel the state is also the product of capitalist imperialism, but they are the beneficiary. I made that pretty clear I think.
The poor countries on that list are all the target of structural adjustment policies, which basically say “you need to neglect your population and become indentured servants, and if you don’t we will fucking glass your country.” That last part about glassing them isn’t in the text, but it’s clearly implied by the context these policies take place in. Also the leaders are usually bribed so they will agree more readily.
And just because Israeli citizens are “happy” according to some index that you’ve not actually shared, just insisted does exist, has nothing to do with whether the state is on their side. They are generally extremely wealthy people living in an extremely wealthy state that is propped up by US spending. The people who live there are expats from wealthy western countries, which is a privileged sample of a privileged sample.
This is almost certainly entirely socioeconomic status, directly influenced by geopolitics.
Also, Israel’s genocide is not making their people safer. It is endangering them enormously. The state just can’t stop genociding because it’s been given a green light by the US imperial war machine, and that’s just how states behave when they have that kind of power.
I got that impression too, and the fediverse has lost a lot of its shine recently. People are rushing to say that they support "both sides" and Israel can defend itself... but just not in any way that would be able to stop another attack like October's from happening. It feels like a lot of people just want to side with Hamas, but don't want to actually say that out loud.
It's been a very eye-opening experience over the past month to see just how little the left cares about victims of violence if they happen to be Jewish.
Nah. Don't let the current situation fool you. You've seen that I'm very pro-Israel in my other comments. But there are many of us that are lefties through and through. I mean most Jews in the US lean slightly left of the democrats. I lean further. And David ben Gurion was super leftist. Hardcore socialist commie pinko, that one. If I had been around for the founding of Israel, I'd probably have been kicking back on a kibbutz somewhere.
But the right is definitely not our friend. Most of them support Israel for christo-fascist dreams of the apocalypse. They want to use us. And we should be careful to think that we are the ones using them.
I do not know where you are from, but especially concerning the US and Europe, I do think it's important to understand where this support comes from -- even if they don't actually know it either. It's the underdog problem. Israel is much stronger than in the past. We have won many wars against people who wished to murder us all. We became a force to be reckoned with. And the Palestinian territories are the underdog. And the left has normalized seeing the underdog as the marginalized victim. They are not used to seeing an underdog victimizer. From South Africa to Ireland to PoCs and the LGBT+ communities, they are used to things going one way. And things are not one way. There is a whole 3d plane of possibilities in this world. And that's why I argue more about Israel than anything else on here. To try to help people see that things are not black and white. This isn't a left or right issue. This isn't a David vs Goliath issue. This is something that cannot be boiled down to simple concepts or comparisons. And the more you know, the harder it really is to if not agree with what Israel is doing, to at least understand why they might make the choices they do. And it is not for the sole purpose of ethnic cleansing or genocide. At least not for the majority.
As someone on the left, I can’t exactly disagree. When there’s violence against Jews, some people constantly bring up Israel. They respond to a story about antisemitism being on the rise by saying criticism of Israel isn’t antisemitism. And it’s ironic, because by saying that about antisemitic attacks, they’re the ones confusing the two.
This needs to be pointed out to them more often. I don’t think most of them realize it.
They aren’t going about this in a way that stops this from happening is the problem. You’re so wrapped up in the Zionist narrative that they’ve tricked you into thinking extermination is the final solution.
Britain didn’t get rid of the IRA by bombing and blockading Ireland. There was no ground invasion despite thousands dying in bombings and other violence.
The fact is that the attack in October and others like it happen because the extreme Zionists like Likud have taken steps to ensure this. Because they’re creating a situation where they can be horrifically brutal but hide behind good pr narratives. They literally propped up Hamas at its inception with the stated goal of fracturing Fatah which was a moderate party suing for a two state solution.
As long as Israel keeps killing Palestinians in the West Bank where there IS NO HAMAS, they will keep driving support for any group that resists Israel.
You can get far more innocent civilians on your side if you treat them better than Hamas. Knowing everything we know about how Hamas treats them should tell you just how bad Israel treats them on top of that.
You stop this by removing the war mongers from power first and foremost. As long as Netanyahu’s party has control there can never be peace. Because like Hamas, they want a one state solution too.
You must be reading a very different slice of the fediverse than I am. I’ve been blocking Nazis, tankies, and other assorted idiots on sight since I started using Lemmy, and I’ve seen maybe a handful of people saying things that could be interpreted as supporting Hamas. They are vastly outnumbered by people decrying the slaughter of civilians and apologists for Israel.
I made the mistake of commenting on this post where people clearly think that the Hamas are the good guys and have every right to do what they do. Apologies for linking to it.
Of course if you go to tankie central you get tankies. They’re also acting like Putin didn’t order the shelling and capture of Ukrainian cities and it’s all just (insert kremlin talking point here).
They are a specific niche of political mind. The kind that only thinks western nations are capable of propaganda and evil. Don’t take them as representative of smarter people.
Yeah, I shouldn’t have commented. That post ended up in my hot/all feed and I didn’t really look at the community. I was frankly quite confused as to what’s up with these people until I saw the upvoted Russian propaganda comment which cleared things up quite a bit.
If you're coming to any international conflict, but specially to this one, from a "good guys/bad guys" framework you're absolutely not helping.
Sometimes (a lot of times, sadly) all you get in a particular issue is just assholes all the way down. Unsurprisingly, deadly military conflicts where both sides have proven at best a callous disregard for civilian casualties practically requires the asshole pile to be expansive and thorough.
The question is how you get the endless, writhing mass of assholes to stop. Which isn't looking great right now.
I still don’t understand what’s so hard about condemning antisemitism and giving them the boot. You can’t truly be left wing, at least socially, if you aren’t making it clear bigots aren’t welcome.
We’ve come full circle now too – they’ve mixed up criticism of Israel and antisemitism.
Right now it’s like a 6yo child that punches you as hard as they can in the balls, and you respond by beating the fuck out of them with a tire iron. The fact that you could straight-up murder the child by shooting them in the fucking face doesn’t mean that breaking every bone in their hands along with both legs to “teach them a lesson” would be appropriate or proportionate.
For sure, but that wasn’t really my point, which was intentions and goals. Hamas is not a “good guy” since they will take every chance of murdering and kidnapping israeli citizens if it’s by high-precision missiles or fucking gliders straight out of a comic book, and israelis aren’t the “good guys” for barraging palestinian civvies while taking tiktoks.
I feel vile for all this good guys bad guys rhetoric ffs gotta take a showa
Oh, I’m not saying that Hamas is good guys. They’re not. They’re terrorists.
But by the scope and scale, by the amount of force that they’re able to bring to bear, and by the sheer number of non-combatants being killed, the IDF is far, far worse. Hamas targeted civilians on purpose, the IDF is simply indiscriminate.
The Allied forces utilized the tactics of total-war during WWII, with things like the firebombing of Dresden, or Tokyo. The idea was to break the will of the people to fight. Well, spoiler: it doesn’t work. When you kill someone’s whole family, their friends, blow up their house and community, they end up having an even stronger desire to fight back. Just like the bombings of London by Germany increased the resolve of Britons, so did the indiscriminate massacre of civilians by the Allies increase the resolve of the Germans.
The actions of the IDF are going to give Hamas it’s next generation of fighters, people willing to die to kill Israel.
Tactically their October 7 attack was incredibly silly, honestly what did they think would happen?
They gave Netanyahu, who was finally fumbling at the reigns after almost thirty years aan excuse to execute his wet dreams and all of Israel uniting behind him.
I see no way how they could have thought the attack would benefit their cause.
That isn’t what a tankie is at all. A tankie is someone who defends authoritarian governments because the governments are “left wing” or rivals of the US. Having a left wing economic policy isn’t even close. Hell you can be a Communist and still not be a tankie.
More like they get accused of doing so even though their comment didn’t mention Hamas and they were talking about Palestinian rights, and somewhere someone pops up telling them they sympathize with Hamas.
Netanyahu does not state that killing of civilians is his goal, nor does IDF purposely do that. Imagine the amount of civilian deaths if it were actually IDF’s goal, as it is for Hamas.
This is an important distinction in my opinion. Does the IDF care if they kill palestinian civilians? No. But they aren’t actively trying to murder as many palestinian civilians as they can either.
Seriously look at their actions and decide for yourself whether or not they are going out of their way to kill civilians or whether they are so careless they kill anyone on their way
The idea that the IDF would have to beat Gaza into a pulp so we can finally admit to ourselves that they don’t care about civilians is weak, not to mention a logical fallacy. This isn’t the indication to look for when war crimes happen. It’s the actions of the IDF themselves.
Maybe they just want plausible deniability more than they want immediate genocide. It sure looks to me like that’s what they’re doing, and that it’s working.
Just like every other piece of civilian infrastructure.
You say Jabalia like it hasn’t been a city since the 40s. It’s not some tent city. It’s a legitimate city that has been around for decades, which Hamas only took control of after 2007.
It’s not a refugee camp at all. It’s a city that has existed for almost a century.
You can cheer for Hamas. Your emojis don’t mean shit lol. Nobody else supports them. Even “the media” (you sound like my drug addicted religious dad here).
And the very fact that somehow bombing people taking refuge in a city rather than a refigee camp is something you needed to point out as though that changes anything … That’s very telling.
And lastly, Israel is losing the media war. 😊 It’s not sustainable to kill more people and get away with it, not when even holocaust historians are alarmed at the Israeli rhetoric and massacre it keeps committing on a daily basis.
It’s still a refugee camp. It houses refugees who have been displaced. Many Palestinian refugee camps are X number of years old because Israel has been ethnically cleansing them for decades. It doesn’t matter how you define it, no one “made shit up”, it’s classed as a refugee camp. The UN set it up as a camp, but here comes some random regular jackoff on lemmy trying to tell us otherwise.
The audacity of pro-Israelis in twisting all international definitions is beyond me.
Again, the very fact that it’s been a refugee camp for decades where people have shitty living conditions makes this bombing that Israel did worse, not better.
The people living in that camp were done dirty by the 1949 armistice, don’t get me wrong. But it’s been 75 years; they need to move on.
Palestinians are literally the only refugees on the planet who pass down refugee status to their children. That’s based on the definition that the UNmade up because the Arab countries didn’t want to take in Palestinians.
They’ve had 75 years to move out of that camp and make their own lives better. At some point, they need wipe the snot off their noses and stop crying. The Jews who were ethnically cleansed from the Arab countries faced adversity when they moved to Israel, but they’ve moved on and made their lives much better.
@steventhedev@snek The Jews didn't "move on" , they literally created "Zionism" and STOLE land they had only a mere historical connection to. Your entire post was completely delusional
@steventhedev@snek Oh wait, I misspoke, the "Jews" of the 1940's didn't have a "historical" connection to the last, they only had a RELIGIOUS connection to the land. Religion doesn't convey physical property rights, so talk about making shit up.
Jabalia refugee camp consists of an area that is 1,4 km^2^. It had a registered population of about 50 000 inhabitants in 2017, who knows how much these days. It’s not exactly a small place, even if the term “refugee camp” might give that image.
So who knows. Perhaps they’re just murdering civilians, or perhaps a place like that is a perfect breeding ground for extremism.
Well, I, for one, hope that the IDF is finally fucking losing the popularity war. Until the US stops propping them up no matter what, they have no incentive to seriously work towards peace.
If they were fighting an actual war, then the leaders of Israel would be pulled into the ICC for war crimes.
Your argument might have more weight if the head of national security wasn’t a former member of the Kach party, a group Israel designated a terrorist group in 1994.
“When he came of age for conscription into the Israel Defense Forces at 18, he was exempted from service by the IDF due to his extreme-right political background.”
What a guy. I thought militaries (and police) love those people.
Israeli military is not for volunteers, it’s for everyone. The top ranking generals and chiefs of staff were prominent against Netanyahu and this extremist incompetent government. They are also said that human rights activists that give a voice to solders that saw atrocious acts of the idf itself. This is not the norm, contrary to what the media would have you think. This, according to the top ranking Israeli ex officers, is how the idf should fix its wrongs.
If I were a military commander in WW2 with the same technology we have today, and Hitler was out in the open at an elementary school graduation next to a preschool, I would not make that order. Instead, I’d mobilize intelligence agents to get there immediately and tail him, while moving my forces nearby.
I find it hard to believe that Israeli military and intelligence agencies could not track him and wait. The IDF just cares more about their own skin than they do of Palestinian children.
It took the US 10 years to track down Bin Laden, all the while he was still communicating with cells. In your example that is a LOT of quality holocaust time for Hitler.
There is no easy way out of the trolley problem of slippery genocidal targets popping up with a limited time window to execute.
He allowed Hamas to be funded but it’s still horrific the hand he had in making this monster. He allowed Hamas to grow so it would fight those looking to negotiate toward a two-state solution.
I think this is what @SlikPikker is talking about:
For years, the various governments led by Benjamin Netanyahu took an approach that divided power between the Gaza Strip and the West Bank — bringing Palestinian Authority President Mahmoud Abbas to his knees while making moves that propped up the Hamas terror group.
The idea was to prevent Abbas — or anyone else in the Palestinian Authority’s West Bank government — from advancing toward the establishment of a Palestinian state.
Thus, amid this bid to impair Abbas, Hamas was upgraded from a mere terror group to an organization with which Israel held indirect negotiations via Egypt, and one that was allowed to receive infusions of cash from abroad.
Hamas was also included in discussions about increasing the number of work permits Israel granted to Gazan laborers, which kept money flowing into Gaza, meaning food for families and the ability to purchase basic products.
Israeli officials said these permits, which allow Gazan laborers to earn higher salaries than they would in the enclave, were a powerful tool to help preserve calm.
Toward the end of Netanyahu’s fifth government in 2021, approximately 2,000-3,000 work permits were issued to Gazans. This number climbed to 5,000 and, during the Bennett-Lapid government, rose sharply to 10,000.
Since Netanyahu returned to power in January 2023, the number of work permits has soared to nearly 20,000.
Additionally, since 2014, Netanyahu-led governments have practically turned a blind eye to the incendiary balloons and rocket fire from Gaza.
Meanwhile, Israel has allowed suitcases holding millions in Qatari cash to enter Gaza through its crossings since 2018, in order to maintain its fragile ceasefire with the Hamas rulers of the Strip.
Most of the time, Israeli policy was to treat the Palestinian Authority as a burden and Hamas as an asset. Far-right MK Bezalel Smotrich, now the finance minister in the hardline government and leader of the Religious Zionism party, said so himself in 2015.
Always has been. No one spews sulfur against the Jews like a Zionist. You are either with the right wing ethnostate nationalists or you are an antisemite, specially if you are Jewish.
For those wondering who the man in the picture is, here's wikipedia:
Itamar Ben-Gvir ... is an Israeli lawyer and far-right politician who serves as the Minister of National Security. ... Ben-Gvir, a settler in the Israeli-occupied West Bank, has faced charges of hate speech against Arabs and was known to have a portrait in his living room of Israeli-American terrorist Baruch Goldstein, who massacred 29 Palestinian Muslim worshipers and wounded 125 others in Hebron, in the 1994 Cave of the Patriarchs massacre. ... He was also previously convicted of supporting a terrorist group known as Kach, which espoused Kahanism, an extremist religious Zionist ideology. ... Under his leadership, the Otzma Yehudit (Jewish Power), a party which espouses Kahanism and anti-Arabism, won six seats in the 2022 Israeli legislative election ... He has called for the expulsion of Arab citizens of Israel who are not loyal to Israel. Ben Gvir is "widely known for his openly racist, anti-Arab views and activities" ... led several visits to the Temple Mount as activist and member of Knesset, contentious marches through Jerusalem's Old City Muslim Quarter, and set up an office in the Sheikh Jarrah neighborhood which witnessed several evictions of Palestinians. On 3 January 2023, he visited the Temple Mount where the al-Aqsa Mosque is located, spurring an international wave of criticism that labelled his visit purposely provocative. As a lawyer, he is known for defending Jewish radicals and terrorists on trial in Israel. ... Prior to entering politics, he defended Jews spitting at Christians as a "an ancient Jewish custom". ... Ben-Gvir is married to Ayala Nimrodi... The couple has five children, and they live in the Israeli settlement of Kiryat Arba/Hebron, which is deemed illegal under international law, in the Israeli-occupied West Bank.
When they are saying the quiet part out loud, when terrible things are taken as truth and amplified, yes, unfortunately we have to indicate that we think these things are insane and wrong.
Nah, just been caught up in arguments with worse idiots than you have, it would seem 🤷
As evidenced by the fact that the IDF are doing it, some people in the world are awful enough to think that it’s an entirely reasonable course of action and some of those people sometimes get into online arguments 🤷
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Sounds scary but I have confidence in the Attorney General. If she okayed it, then I’m good.
We’re at war! These protesters need to understand that it’s not time for their petty get-together and block the roads. It’s time for the big boys to march onwards to war. Block their roads, and get shot at your own discretion.
One of my favorite things about Lemmy is how I can say something blatantly silly and most people will laugh at me, as intended, but a good half will be like “yeah but seriously,” because there’s nothing I can say these days that is so silly someone hasn’t said it with complete sincerity.
While I get your point and completely agree, I can see how you might have hit a nerve, what with fascism being on the rise across the world.
Half of the American major parties and the ruling parties of India, Russia, Israel, Hungary, Belarus, Italy and other countries being fascist is not nothing…
Samaria Regional Council head Yossi Dagan issued a rare video statement on Shabbat describing the incident: “This incident is a simple incident,” he claimed, saying that the settler family involved was “upstanding,” and a father and “son, a combat soldier on weekend leave” were “attacked with rocks by dozens of wild Hamas supporters.”
-Dehumanize victim. Check
-Blame Hamas. Check
the pograms will continue until morale religion improves
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