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JustZ , (edited )

Have Hamas ever heard of endlings? It’s the last of a species before it goes extinct.

Destraight ,

And they should get to do it, considering what all those Jews did to the Palestinians

yaminoEXE ,

Hamas saw that Bibi is digging a giant hole for himself and said “I want in”

BearWolf ,

Good. Death to Israel.

dingleberry ,

You will run out of Palestinians to get bombed before that.

Blackmist ,

Well I’ve done some maths, and I’m pretty sure the IDF can kill the population of Gaza faster than Hamas can kill the population of Israel.

UnspecificGravity ,

That’s exactly what Hamas wants to see because that’s what gets Israeli to lose international support and prompts Arab nations to invade.

They don’t give a shit about the Palestinian people.

Blackmist ,

Not lost them a lot of international support so far, I’ll be honest.

While they may still be reeling from the loss of Bolivia, the people they do business with on a daily basis have picked their sides and stuck to it.

Kusimulkku ,

They’re not doing their supporters any favours with these sort of comments lol

NOT_RICK ,
@NOT_RICK@lemmy.world avatar

It’s easy to support Palestinian statehood. Anyone that supports Hamas is a moron.

Kusimulkku ,

Considering Hamas is the organization governing Gaza right now, the two are often intertwined in these discussions

SlowNoPoPo ,

Governing is a generous term

ghostdoggtv ,

Israel controls the borders

how can Hamas do this

Shardikprime ,

Yes Egypt also doesn’t exists

Marin_Rider ,

it really is amazing how all the Hamas supporters simply refuse to acknowledge this one simple fact

NuXCOM_90Percent ,

Under any solution (one or two state), Hamas will be the ones in power and representing the Palestinian block. Doesn’t matter if they do a good job of it or not.

lolcatnip ,

How do you figure?

NuXCOM_90Percent ,

They are the de facto (and kind of de jure…) government of Gaza. Hell, they run the Health Ministry that provides a lot of the updates.

If this somehow ends with anything short of further subjugation and/or eradication, they will be “heroes”. And they aren’t going to lessen their hold on the Palestinian people.

lolcatnip ,

They were also very unpopular before Oct 7 and I doubt they’ve gotten any more popular since then.

NuXCOM_90Percent ,

Popularity doesn’t really matter when they were, and are, the power in charge in Gaza.

And “popularity” will go through the roof if, somehow, they are the ones that get the Israeli Government to stop being genocidal dicks and actually make concessions… by raping and murdering Israeli, German, and UK citizens?

lolcatnip ,

It seems to me that Hamas “governs” Palestine the same way groups like the Mafia or Yakuza “govern” the people they extort.

c0mbatbag3l ,
@c0mbatbag3l@lemmy.world avatar

Didn’t the Palestinian people vote them in?

Shardikprime ,

Yes, democracy exists until we don’t like it

astral_avocado ,

What kind of democracy holds only a single election in 2006 and then no others?

Shardikprime ,

Venezuela for starters

FlyingSquid ,
@FlyingSquid@lemmy.world avatar

Venezuela is literally in the middle of an election year.

lolcatnip ,

Almost 20 years ago, when the majority of Palestinians alive today were either too young to vote or hadn’t even been born. How long after an election do you assume elected leaders have any real mandate?

c0mbatbag3l ,
@c0mbatbag3l@lemmy.world avatar

My point was that regardless of their ability to do it, they were at one time the elected officials of the geographic location known as Gaza. They’re obviously not a real government in policy and action, but they’re the only thing that exists to even bear the term or concept of governance in the area.

There is no other group to be considered as the government, no matter how awful Hamas is at being a government of any variety.

assassin_aragorn ,

At one time, yes, but I don’t think we should be holding the Palestinians today to that. That would be like the Dubya era. If he had kept office until now, he would certainly not represent the opinion of Americans.

Hamas is embedded like a parasite, but there’s better ways to point this out.

guacupado ,

How long before you expect a population to be responsible for their country?

lolcatnip ,

When their “leaders” don’t represent them? Never. Same reason I don’t hate on Israelis.

SmoothIsFast ,

I don’t blame North Koreans for being in a dictatorship, why would I blame Palestinians?

astral_avocado ,

Like over a decade ago but they havent held elections since. I’ve seen countering articles saying Hamas has overwhelming support by the people, vs actually Hamas murders anyone who goes against them. So who knows. Fog of war and all that.

Tavarin ,
@Tavarin@lemmy.world avatar

actually Hamas murders anyone who goes against them

Well that would result in them having overwhelming support, among the survivors that is.

Flax_vert ,

There is also the West Bank, however.

Kusimulkku ,

Yes, though most of the stuff is about Gaza

dangblingus ,

The West Bank has now been all but annexed by Israel.

Flax_vert ,

Unfortunately

SlowNoPoPo ,

I was about to say, who’s out there supporting hamas

NOT_RICK ,
@NOT_RICK@lemmy.world avatar

You’d be surprised, they’re out there

gravitas_deficiency ,

The tankies are all over it, actually.

TokenBoomer ,

That’s it. I’m never voting for a tankie again.

astral_avocado ,

Fucking deranged tankies man, their Lord and Savior Hasan Abi has been going off about how “baby settlers” are valid military targets. These people yearn to live under a propaganda-military dictatorship.

gravitas_deficiency ,

It’s crazy because I’m pretty sure a lot of them would be considered “undesirables” in the societies they claim to want to live in.

c0mbatbag3l ,
@c0mbatbag3l@lemmy.world avatar

You’ve not been in these threads for very long, have you?

Shardikprime ,

Bro like literally 90% of Lemmy has a throbbing boner for Hamas and his stated antisemitic terrorists, even in this thread, terrorists apologizers abound

FlyingSquid ,
@FlyingSquid@lemmy.world avatar

Weird that as a Jew who is pretty damn sensitive to antisemitism since I faced a lot of it growing up in religious Indiana, I haven’t noticed this support for antisemitic terrorists on Lemmy. I’ve seen a lot of support for innocent people being slaughtered because of Israel’s response to antisemitic terrorists, but that’s a separate issue.

People in the U.S. protested the war in Afghanistan. Does that mean they supported Al Qaeda? Because this is some real “you’re either with us or you’re with the terrorists” thinking from my perspective.

Empricorn ,

Tankies? The same people supporting Russia, China, and other brutalist regimes…

guacupado ,

They’re the same picture.

TooManyGames ,

Not to condone their actions, but what would Hamas care about getting supporters? Palestine situation hasn’t been helped much at all by international supporters, so it’s not like they care about that.

Kusimulkku ,

Might make people less happy to support pummeling them if they weren’t acting like such villains

Shardikprime ,

Yeah why would they use civilians as human shields to gather the physical and online support of the easily misled and swayed masses of the west

assassin_aragorn ,

The two are linked together. When aid has been sent to Palestine, to help Palestinians, Hamas has taken it for themselves. There was an EU project I believe to build water infrastructure, and Hamas took it apart to make into rockets.

I don’t think it’s possible to provide material support to the Palestinians. Hamas just takes it all. It’s so fucked.

mwguy ,

Palestine is dependent on foreign aid to continue its war fighting. Specifically aid from western nations. They need supporters to feed, fuel and supply it’s military and populace.

guacupado ,

Not to condone their actions, but what would Hamas care about getting supporters?

For one, all the Hamas supporters are asking the US to tell Israel to stop attacking them.

Five ,

Which supporters? This is a boon to Vladimir Putin, as world attention and aid to Israel comes at a cost to support for Ukraine.

By escalating the conflict to a genocidal ground war, Israel’s criminal leaders may have doomed not only Israelis, but the people of Ukraine as well.

Kusimulkku ,

Which supporters?

People supporting the Palestinian side in this conflict

Five ,

Don’t confuse support for Palestinians as support for Hamas.

Kusimulkku ,

People are already confusing the two, that’s why it’s an issue

jabjoe , (edited )
@jabjoe@feddit.uk avatar

It’s deliberate. If you don’t support Israel’s apartheid of Palestine, you are apparently antisemitic and want Israel destroyed.

Hamas is not helping things. They are bunch of murderous religious nutters. They do want Israel gone. Just like how Israel’s nutters want Palestine gone.

But Hamas are not Palestine anymore than Israel is its religious nutters.

0ryX ,

The only issue I see are the dumbasses that cant tell the difference, supporting Palestinians doesn’t mean support for Hamas. But if you don’t think they need some sort of military support in one way or another you don’t need to be making comments about it and need to instead go back and read a little history about the Israelie Occupation and Crimes Against Humanity thats taken place. Hell you wouldn’t even have to go back in time very far but a year maybe less, but I suggest to get the full picture and decent understanding to allow yourself to come and discuss world topics with other adults that you start from the beginning.

Kusimulkku ,

The only issue I see are the dumbasses that cant tell the difference, supporting Palestinians doesn’t mean support for Hamas.

There’s a lot of dumbasses out there, which is sorta the issue.

FlyingSquid ,
@FlyingSquid@lemmy.world avatar

I support the innocent Palestinian people who are being slaughtered. Does that mean I support Hamas? Because I think Hamas is an Iranian puppet that wants a Palestinian caliphate run under Sharia law. I don’t think they help the Palestinian people either. So am I a Hamas supporter? By your definition, apparently.

Kusimulkku ,

I’m not sure what you think my definition was, can you expand on that part?

FlyingSquid ,
@FlyingSquid@lemmy.world avatar

Well you seem to be implying that the support for Palestinians is support for Hamas.

Kusimulkku ,

I’m not saying it’s my personal opinion

guacupado ,

They shouldn’t have any fucking supporters. This is the shit all the anti-Israel people are supporting. I’m no fan of Netanyahu but wtf do they expect Israel to do? It’s like everyone forgot what prompted this and thinks Israel just woke up one morning and decided to raze everything because they were bored.

Llamalitmus ,

You just gotta take that line of thought one step further. I believe in you.

INHALE_VEGETABLES ,

I don’t 👍

Mrkawfee ,

What prompted this? You mean the decades of occupation? Or are you suggesting history only began with the Hamas attack?

Hadriscus ,

Yeah, what prompted this already ? can you remind us ?

Serdan ,

I’m no fan of Netanyahu but wtf do they expect Israel to do?

I expect them not to commit war crimes at a bare minimum.

samus12345 ,

Yes, not indiscriminately murdering civilians would be nice.

Elliott ,

Are you suggesting that when Israel bombs a refugee camp and kills all those innocent people that somehow that is a reasonable response?

feedum_sneedson ,

It’s a disproportionate response, and misdirected. But it is definitely a response to something real, which the more rabid anti-Israel types seem to gloss over.

First ,

It’s a war crime.

feedum_sneedson ,

Probably, yes.

Elliott ,

Israel has a right to defend itself, but they’re bombing refuge camps.

feedum_sneedson ,

Yes it’s a humanitarian disaster through and through, and the government response is internationally humiliating for Israel. I felt the same way when the USA started carpet bombing Baghdad after 9/11, although that was far worse and made much less sense.

lmaydev ,

It’s genocide.

feedum_sneedson ,

I’m not arrogant enough to think I have sufficient knowledge or access to reliable enough information to make that judgement. I can certainly say it’s a humanitarian disaster and tragedy.

smokingManhole ,
@smokingManhole@lemmy.world avatar

Play stupid games, win stupid prizes.

What did you expect? Do you think that hitting a wasp nest with a rod just once means you’ll only be stung once because you only hit it once? There’s no rule stating that the wasps must respond with equal magnitude. If people are now getting hurt, it’s because someone provoked the wasps. The notion that reactions must be proportionate to the offense is quite naive.

reverendsteveii ,

Idk what’s more hilarious here, the implication that a Palestinian baby deserves to die because of what Hamas did or the implication that Jews are hyperaggressive animals that are completely incapable of moral reasoning.

smokingManhole ,
@smokingManhole@lemmy.world avatar

Are you focusing solely on the casualties involving children? Does that mean any location with children is off-limits for retaliation, providing a shield for adversaries because children are present? This is not a simple game of hide and seek, nor is it your idealistic world where a slap is met with a turned cheek.

It’s a common misconception that supporters of Israel are indifferent to the death of children or any civilian, for that matter, and you seem to be perpetuating this narrative. You choose the most objectionable point about an opponent to make an accusation, and, much like someone obstinately arguing without listening to reason, you consider yourself morally superior and in the right.

What, in your opinion, would be a suitable response to an attack from Hamas? Would peaceful protests, international condemnation, or sanctions suffice?

If you’ve discarded your spine, don’t assume everyone else has done the same. An entity without the ability to react appropriately can only succumb.

theluckyone ,

If I get stung by a wasp nest sitting on my neighbor’s house, I do not have the right to burn down my neighbor’s house with them in it.

Hamas, the IDF, and the Israeli are all murderers. They all have blood on their hands.

smokingManhole ,
@smokingManhole@lemmy.world avatar

Your narrative would hold if it weren’t flawed; it’s an oversimplification. Let’s take your perspective where Hamas is the bees that stung Israel, and now Israel is retaliating against the land harboring the bee nest. (I use ‘bees’ here to distinguish from my earlier wasp analogy).

If your neighbor disliked the bees as much as you and agreed the nest was a problem, then certainly, destroying it with care to avoid collateral damage would be wise. However, the situation changes if your neighbor is a beekeeper who shields the bees in his home to protect them from you. If those bees become aggressive and harm your family, naturally, you’d first request the neighbor to remove the bees. Should they refuse, you’d have every right to seek external help. But what if the authorities do little, leaving you to suffer the stings while your neighbor faces minimal consequences? Rather than passively endure this, you might feel compelled to act independently to prevent future stings and deter the beekeeper from maintaining this threat.

theluckyone ,

Bullshit.

No government nor military should not get a carte blanche for murdering innocent civilians in the process of fighting a terrorist organization.

If you can’t figure that one out on your own, I’m not debating with you.

smokingManhole ,
@smokingManhole@lemmy.world avatar

Okay, then let’s hypothetically say Israel forms a terrorist organization that doesn’t overlap with the Israeli government itself, would they then have the right to attack Gaza? This organization would essentially be in the same position relative to Israel as Hamas is to the Palestinians.

The way you debate reminds me of someone who might have abandoned their education prematurely. Are you going to complain to the teacher because you cannot acknowledge that your reasoning is flawed, incomplete, and biased? Your approach to this discussion is quite frankly, absurd.

Reddit_Is_Trash ,

These fuckers kidnapped US citizens, they deserve 100% of whatever bombs we throw at them until our people are freed.

Raz ,

Yes, because the US is a shining beacon of morality and peace.

Elliott ,

Yes, those kids in that refugee camp had it coming I guess.

Cethin ,

Well, that not totally incorrect. The settlers starting moving in (before the nation was a thing) and started killing and displacing the existing inhabitants. It’s been bad from the start, though they have had periods that are better than others. People excuse Israel for what Hamas has done, but rarely do those same people forgive Hamas for what the Jewish settlers have done.

Personally, I don’t make a judgment on Hamas. They are a much weaker force against a much stronger force. If they fight a conventional war then they don’t stand a chance. Gorilla warfare/terrorism is the only viable option for them. Israel uses terrorism every day, but it’s only bad when Hamas does it?

I do judge Israel. They are a strong force, and more importantly are getting support from many other powerful nations. Until my country (the US) stops sending support, I will criticize their actions. I do not condone my money going towards what they do.

nutsack ,

being both anti-israel and anti-hamas at the same time is the only correct position i don’t understand why this isn’t obvious

Cowars ,

Because Hamas is the only resistance Palestinians have against the colonizer.

nutsack ,

it isn’t, actually. they have a government with a prime minister and a president which oppose hamas and which netanyahu wants nobody to pay attention to because they are the legitimate path to statehood

Cowars ,

Well then Netanyahu is doing a great job because I heard that Hamas was elected by the palestinians and I never heard about another Palestinian government.

nutsack ,

it was elected a long time ago and since then they have fallen out of favor and there was never an election again

Lophostemon ,

Whelp… ya gotta have a hobby.

0421008445828ceb46f496700a5fa6 ,
@0421008445828ceb46f496700a5fa6@kbin.social avatar

At this point I wouldn't be surprised if Hamas leaders are actually undercover IDF

rastilin ,

So, just to be clear, you're saying that the attack against Israel was actually a secret Jewish conspiracy to make Hamas look bad?

CommanderCloon ,

Stop equating israelis to Jews

TexMexBazooka ,

More like a way to give Israel a casus belli to turn Gaza into a parking lot.

Not saying that’s what happened, but as far as theofascist stayed go I wouldn’t be surprised

Corkyskog ,

Didn’t Netanyahu prop up Hamas? That’s all the info I need to know. That and one conversation with a Zionist, they are out of their mind and will straight up say that Palestinians don’t deserve to live. That conversation was over a decade ago and it still gives me the creepy crawlys… it was like talking to a proud Nazi that firmly believed in his ideology.

TexMexBazooka ,

Zionists fall under the category of most religious extremeist- stupid and dangerous. If we could drop all zionists in a hunger games scenario with all members of hamas, maybe throw the Catholic Church in there too.

Except nobody wins we just burn it down when they’re done killing each other like they’re going to do anyway.

lolcatnip ,

Israel ≠ Jews. Why are you repeating Hamas talking points?

dangblingus ,

Ever heard of a false flag attack?

Sanity_in_Moderation ,

Yes. Repeatedly and constantly. It’s the rallying cry of the morons. Reality doesn’t fit my worldview so it’s reality that’s wrong!

SirToxicAvenger ,

A senior member of Hamas has hailed the systematic slaughter of civilians in Israel

When asked whether this meant the complete annihilation of Israel, Hamas replied: “Yes, of course.”

who still thinks hamas are the good guys?

Excrubulent ,
@Excrubulent@slrpnk.net avatar

Who still thinks any state is the good guys? Hamas and Israel are both enemies of the people.

The only way to cut through the propagandistic lies of these groups is to point out that neither truly represents the people they say they do.

MxM111 ,

There are levels of evil.

Excrubulent ,
@Excrubulent@slrpnk.net avatar

And? You’re allowed to say what you mean, you know.

Where do the civilians being bombed fall on your spectrum of evil? Do they somehow deserve it in your eyes?

rastilin ,

Ok, I have to ask. How would you apply this to any other conflict. For example the Allies fighting against Germany. Where did the German civilians fall in the spectrum of evil. Was fighting Germany justified, knowing that German civilians might suffer? If so, how is this situation different?

Excrubulent ,
@Excrubulent@slrpnk.net avatar

Strategic bombing - ie, the indiscriminate bombing of populated areas - was ineffective and immoral, and people at the time condemned it as such, and they were right to do so. It was also wrong to use Japanese cities as testbeds for nuclear arms. There was no real strategic reason to do it.

So like… don’t do that? Maybe Israel shouldn’t do that, because fucking obviously?

Like yes, there were bad states on the allied side in WWII as well. You can see that in how they conducted themselves after the war was over, and at many points before that. In fact the policies of the Nazis were directly inspired by US genocides.

You’re not going to trip me up by bringing up the Nazis. I said states are the enemy of the people, and I meant it.

None of what I said should be construed as support for the fascist axis powers, that should just be obvious, but I’m sure I have to say it, because people are just going to try it on.

rastilin ,

But you're still ok with using artillery against a city if the city has an army in it?

Excrubulent ,
@Excrubulent@slrpnk.net avatar

What? Why? Where did I say that? What the fuck are you talking about?

rastilin ,

What? Why? Where did I say that? What the fuck are you talking about?

I asked how this conflict was different and you started talking about a completely different topic like stategic bombing. But Israel isn't using strategic bombing, they're using artillery and missiles. Just like how the allies did against Berlin and other German cities when fighting the Germans. So how is this different?

Excrubulent ,
@Excrubulent@slrpnk.net avatar

The difference is that Israel has been colonising the west bank for over 70 years. They are the aggressors. They are more analogous to the Nazis in WWII for that reason anyway.

And yes, just like there were bad actors on the allied side in WWII, Hamas is also a bad actor.

This isn’t… COMPLICATED.

rastilin ,

Israel pulled out of Palestine in 2005 and Palestine elected their own government, at that point they're an independent nation.

Excrubulent ,
@Excrubulent@slrpnk.net avatar

Oh good, so IDF snipers shooting Palestinian children in 2019 couldn’t be happening: haaretz.com/…/0000017f-e3ff-d9aa-afff-fbffde89000…

I’m sure this was necessary to get to the extremely small Hamas bunker that was surgically implanted in his skull, because those bastards were using him as a human shield.

Similar story much more recently: www.bbc.com/news/world-middle-east-65812442

That kid was two years old. Must’ve been a really small bunker.

Seems like a really common tactic, apparently the rates of Palestinian children being shot by the IDF was increasing before this latest situation started: hrw.org/…/west-bank-spike-israeli-killings-palest…

Yup, good thing Israel left and this couldn’t possibly be happening.

rastilin , (edited )

I read the BBC article on the recent shooting, you're right, it's tragic and wrong. Two gunmen shot up a settlement and then started exchanging fire with an IDF unit and the child was shot in the crossfire. This is awful, but has nothing to do with Palestine being an independent nation since this happened in the west bank, not the Gaza strip, which as I understand it, are different.

Also, this article (which is the only one I can access) seems to be posted in bad faith, the whole tragic situation started by a bunch of people opening fire on random Israeli citizens. But there's no mention of this at all when you're decrying Israeli violence. And the same for your talk about "Strategic Bombing", that no one is doing, or the political situation in the west bank (which is different from the Gaza strip).

Excrubulent ,
@Excrubulent@slrpnk.net avatar

Wow, incredible that the IDF just happens to accidentally shoot dozens of Palestinian children every year. Tragic. Surely there can be no assignment of blame here.

And I don’t bother explaining what’s wrong with Hamas because this thread isn’t full of Hamas apologists, it’s full of Israel apologists.

donuts , (edited )
@donuts@kbin.social avatar

This isn’t… COMPLICATED.

Honestly that's a pretty strange thing to say about one of history's most complicated and oldest conflicts. If it was as simple as random dudes online think it is, don't you think this issue would have been somehow resolved by now?

Both the Israelis and the Palestinians have tribal roots in the region dating back thousands of years.

The region also has religions significance to all three of the big western religions.

And to make it even more complicated, the region has been under the control of multiple empires over the last 3000 years: waring tribes, Egyptians, Assyrians, Romans, Byzantines, the second Muslim caliphate, the Ottomans, the British, and I'm sure I'm skipping more. Israel and Palestine as nations where effectively created at around the same time post WW1 (see the Mandate for Palestine and the Balfour Declaration).

So sure.. It's possible that you're so much smarter than everyone else that one of the world's oldest conflicts is trivial to you, OR, just maybe it's a little bit more complicated than you and some other people let on...

Excrubulent ,
@Excrubulent@slrpnk.net avatar

This is why it’s happening: www.c-span.org/video/?c4962369/user-clip-joe-bide…

“Were there not an Israel the United States of America would have to invent an Israel to protect her interest in the region.”

Biden has reiterated this sentiment since this situation has started. His stance is completely unchanged. He admits openly that it is a power play, so any posturing about a “sacred bond” or whatever is bullshit.

It is power politics. The US is propping up Israel as a projection of power, and with that Israel has become ever more fascist without any accountability, and they have perpetrated a genocide because they have the power to, just like any state would in those circumstances, because they are all sociopathic institutions. That’s it. There’s nothing special about the Jewish nature of the state, it’s got nothing to do with religion, that’s just an excuse that gets laid over the top of what is simple exploitation.

It’s a land grab and a genocide, and Hamas was propped up by Israel to serve their interests at the time. In fact you could say they’re still serving Israel’s interests, because Israel the state has no real interest in protecting their own civilians, they only want their land grab.

The “it’s complicated” bullshit is just there to muddy the waters. It’s a lazy handwave to cover the fact that you can’t excuse genocide.

donuts , (edited )
@donuts@kbin.social avatar

The Balfour Declaration, which put the creation of Israel into play, was created by the British during WW1, at a time when the entire region was under the control of the Ottoman Empire.:

His Majesty's Government view with favour the establishment in Palestine of a national home for the Jewish people, and will use their best endeavours to facilitate the achievement of this object, it being clearly understood that nothing shall be done which may prejudice the civil and religious rights of existing non-Jewish communities in Palestine, or the rights and political status enjoyed by Jews in any other country.

It's obvious that Israel is the strongest and most strategically important ally that America has in the region today, nobody can deny that. Just like nobody can deny that Hamas, the ruling entity of Gaza for almost 15 years, is allied with and strategically important to Iran, Russia, and many of Israel and America's other big geological adversaries. Iran supported Hamas' recent terrorist attack on Israel because they understood that they, an Islamic theocracy, would benefit from the chaos of what appears to some as a religious war. Similarly, Russia wants chaos in the region in a desperate attempt to divert western military resources away from supporting Ukraine.

To me, none of that makes the situation simpler.

As for the clip you've linked, the first Arab-Israeli war was more than 20 years prior to that. And, taken in context, Biden was arguing against the Reagan administration's plans to arm Saudi Arabia, and to that point I'm not really convinced that he was wrong...

As for claims of genocide, I'm afraid that cuts both ways:

The original Charter identified Hamas as the Muslim Brotherhood in Palestine and declares its members to be Muslims who "fear God and raise the banner of Jihad in the face of the oppressors". The charter states that "our struggle against the Jews is very great and very serious" and calls for the eventual creation of an Islamic state in Palestine, in place of Israel and the Palestinian Territories,[3] and the obliteration or dissolution of Israel.

The Day of Judgment will not come until Muslims fight the Jews, when the Jew will hide behind stones and trees. The stones and trees will say, 'O Muslim, O servant of God, there is a Jew behind me, come and kill him.' Only the Gharkad tree would not do that, because it is one of the trees of the Jews.

1988 Charter of Hamas

So yeah, if you think the modern world's oldest geopolitical conflict is simple, then you're either way smarter than everyone else or you're mentally reducing the problem until it confirms your existing biases. Personally I think it's more complicated than you're making it out to be, which is why it hasn't been settled by 100 years of diplomacy and war.

Excrubulent ,
@Excrubulent@slrpnk.net avatar

You tried to bury this in details, but your entire explanation boils down to “US sponsors their puppet and the US’s enemies sponsor the enemies of the US’s puppet”. It’s a proxy war. That’s really about it.

You literally just admitted that it is power politics but you tried to pretend like that complicates the situation in any way.

Yes, there are more details, there are lots of things being said by different actors who all have their own idiosyncratic beliefs and ideas, many of which are fueled by ongoing conflict, but the reason the conflicts in this part of the world are so intractable doesn’t come down to those details. It comes down to the fact that the middle east has reserves of oil that are strategically significant. They are in the middle of a geopolitical tug of war.

Messy doesn’t mean complicated.

And none of this excuses the wholesale slaughter of civilians. That part in particular is not at all complicated.

Limitless_screaming ,
@Limitless_screaming@kbin.social avatar

Attacking civilians to stop an apartheid from getting more money and support is evil.

Making up reasons after you target civilians and journalists is another level of evil.

Quacksalber , (edited )

Difference is, Israel isn’t meant to represent palestinian people, Hamas is. And they are doing a great job of it, if their job is getting civilians killed.

Edit: Just think about the massive protests against Netanyahu earlier in the year. Do those show how in tune the Israeli government and people are? No. But the very fact they could protest mostly peacefully differentiates Israel’s treatment of its population from all of its neighbours.

Excrubulent ,
@Excrubulent@slrpnk.net avatar

The… what? I have no idea what you’re even trying to say.

The IDF is still dropping bombs on civilians. You can invent whatever bullshit you feel like, it doesn’t make that somehow okay.

Quacksalber ,

The IDF is dropping bombs on (suspected) Hamas holdouts, which are all conveniently located next to civilians.

Excrubulent ,
@Excrubulent@slrpnk.net avatar

Yeah… but they’re still bombing civilians. The “human shields” thing makes no sense. Israel was bombing apartment buildings before they helped create Hamas.

theintercept.com/…/hamas-israel-palestine-conflic…

Quacksalber ,

Doesn’t change the fact that in this conflict, the IDF are trying to get Hamas targets with their attacks. And that the Hamas are the ones that built their infrastructure next to civilians, that Hamas did kill Israeli civilians indiscriminately and that the Hamas knew full well, that by building their infrastructure next to civilians and by mindlessly raiding Israeli territory, the IDF would respond and kill palestinian civilians while doing so. Israel wants to crush Hamas. Hamas wants as many people to die as possible, so that Israel is made a pariah internationally.

Excrubulent ,
@Excrubulent@slrpnk.net avatar

Right… so it’s so predictable that the IDF would bomb civilians that any provocation makes the provoker guilty of their murders?

So basically the IDF are so irredeemable in your eyes they’re just a force of nature or something?

Again, you’re also ignoring the fact that Israel created Hamas.

And Israel SHOULD be a pariah. The only reason they’ve gotten away with this genocide for so long is because they’ve had unconditional US state backing.

Quacksalber ,

What do you think Israel should do then with Hamas? Let them get away with murdering more than 1200 Israelis? Conduct small-scale incursions at best? The fact of the matter is simply that the situation was fucked long before and the palestinian civilians were in accute danger of becoming collateral the moment the Hamas broke into Israel. If you are looking for a clearer good-guy bad-guy situation, look to the westbank. There, the Israeli settlers are clearly the ones in the wrong.

All the outrage in the world won’t stop Israel from continuing to bomb Hamas in Gaza. On the other hand, Abbas and Fatah got Palestine the recognition of most UN member states. And unlike Hamas, Fatah isn’t getting their civilians killed in droves.

Excrubulent ,
@Excrubulent@slrpnk.net avatar

I’m not looking for a clearer good-guy-bad-guy situation. I said in my first comment that both Hamas and Israel are enemies of the people.

I don’t think either of them “should” do anything, but since “should” doesn’t factor into either of their decisions, it’s irrelevant anyway. They’ll keep oppressing people until they are stopped by organised resistance, just like it is with any oppressive system.

probablyaCat ,

Why do you say Israel and Hamas? Not Likud. Not otzma Yehudit. Just Israel. All of Israel is an enemy? But only Hamas when it comes to Palestine. What about the PLO? Are they fine? Yesh Atid? Or is it really just only Hamas but all of Israel?

Excrubulent ,
@Excrubulent@slrpnk.net avatar

Israel the state, who does not truly represent their citizens. I think the way I phrased it makes that pretty goddamn clear.

probablyaCat ,

So again, the entire state of Israel? The ones elected in free and fair elections? Don't get me wrong. I am not a fan of Likud and I loathe ben Gvir and Otzma Yehudit. Just all of it. And only Hamas. The group that won what was called a free and fair election by the EU and the Carter Center and continues to be ahead in opinion polling since they have stopped elections. What are you defining as "Israel the State"?

Shardikprime ,

We love democracy until we don’t like it

Excrubulent , (edited )
@Excrubulent@slrpnk.net avatar

Why is just the word “elections” enough for you? You need to explain how that makes the government actually speak for the people.

When was the last time you even felt like you had the option of voting for someone who actually represented you? When was the last time you thought the government was working on your behalf in any way? Representative democracy is a farce, it only offers us the choice of a handful of people palatable to the state, and the elected “representative” is not truly representative of the people, because that’s a fundamentally flawed concept.

An election every couple of years to appoint a generalised, non-recallable ruler is just a smokescreen over the fact that we have a permanent political class that answers almost exclusively to capitalist oligarchs.

probablyaCat ,

So are you arguing that both the governments of Israel and Palestine in no way represent the people they govern?

Scrof ,

It makes sense because it doesn’t violate Geneva conventions. If there are combatants hiding among civilians their deaths are 100% on said combatants. What do you expect Israel to do? After a terrorist attack that is equal to 17 (!) times the scope of 9/11 just to shrug it off and send more humanitarian aid to be pillaged by Hamas?

anteaters ,

100%. People here scream “genocide” and “war crimes” but have no idea what these words mean. The “friends” of Palestine here make even Reddit look normal.

Earthwormjim91 ,

I mean, Hamas took power by killing Palestinian civilians. They don’t represent anyone and they openly say they will martyr civilians.

The Palestinian National Authority (Fatah) was the democratically elected government of Palestine before 2007. Hamas staged a coup and executed Fatah officials, which is why Gaza and the West Bank are separate entities today.

Hamas is as much a state as Al-Qaeda. They’re a terrorist group that seized power by way of murder and have openly declared they intend to use their citizens as shields and martyrs.

They’re not a state. They’re a terror cell that deserves to be eliminated. Unfortunately their own admitted tactics of using civilians as shields means that civilians will be killed.

Excrubulent ,
@Excrubulent@slrpnk.net avatar

They aren’t making the IDF bomb apartment buildings, which is something they’ve been doing for decades, before Israel helped create Hamas.

theintercept.com/…/hamas-israel-palestine-conflic…

So where is Israel’s responsibility there, in sponsoring terrorists? Or do we pretend notiing happened before the last few weeks because then we can sort of pretend Israel has no culpability, you know, if we squint and try to avoid looking at the bombing of civilians?

Earthwormjim91 ,

Yes they are. By their own admission in this article.

Hamas by their own damn admission uses civilians as shields and intends to martyr them.

Your article leaves out the fact that Israel funded and supported several Islamic organizations at the time in both Gaza and the West Bank. One became a terrorist institution.

Take the whole history into account. After the six day war, Israel was in the position that they needed all the support they could get. So they supported anyone that opposed the PLO, which was sponsored by Egypt and Fatah. Because that’s who they just were attacked by.

Israel funded dozens of Islamic organizations that were opposed to Fatah, including mosques and schools. Hamas came out of one of them.

probablyaCat ,

That article has such a stupid take. It takes tiny pieces of quotes from a couple of ex-Israeli officials and with one of them is clearly omitting context. Did Israel permit Islamist groups to do stuff like build mosques and have charities? Yes. Did he also say, but it is not mentioned in the article, that they were completely peaceful at the time and that Israel didn't want to be viewed as attacking Islam? Also yes.

See, what you are saying is that Israel created Hamas by not using more oppression to stop these groups at a time when they were not attacking Israel, but the PLO was. And that is just such a simple naive take that it is ridiculous. Yeah if Israel could redo things, they might have decided that was a good idea. But then again, what if it just caused more attacks from the surrounding countries after they were claimed to be "attacking Islam." Then would we also blame Israel for those attacks due to them repressing the Islamist movements?

It even does the same by using cherry picked foresight about Afghanistan. It entirely ignores the situation in Afghanistan and just implies that the US caused Al Qaeda. Things just aren't that simple. It's entirely possible that had the US and other countries not interfered in Afghanistan that the soviet union would've lasted longer and Afghanistan might've been another Chechnya.

At the time, Israel was having to fight against the PLO. They were not fighting against the religious Islamic groups. And knowing the history of the time period and the politics in the region, the very religious groups were not nearly the force that they are now. So they made choices for reasons that absolutely made sense at the time. And we have no way of knowing how things would be different if they made different choices.

We can say that places that aren't Israel still have issues with the Muslim brotherhood or are friendly with them all over the middle east. And Israel certainly didn't create the Muslim Brotherhood. And if Israel didn't exist and it was all a Palestinian state with a secular government, it isn't a stretch to say that they would be in that area too, calling for an Islamist government. As they have done in Jordan, Syria, Egypt, Iraq, and more.

Shardikprime ,

If I could I’d give you an award or some kind of thing this is great

probablyaCat ,

This is a lie. Hamas won the vote. The EU, UN, and the Carter Center all called those elections free and fair. If anything, Hamas was an underdog given that Israel, in collaboration with Fatah, kept arresting the politicians in Hamas as they defined Hamas a terrorist organization. Fatah and Israel wanted to delay the elections, but with the encouragement of the US (GWB in particular who felt Hamas would definitely not win), they decided to keep them as they were. Stop making things up to fit your narrative. Hamas still typically wins the popular vote in polling done since then. You have a fucking computer. Just google it. It's all there in black and white.

I mean they did have conflicts with Fatah. But the biggest fights weren't until after they won the election.

Earthwormjim91 ,

en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Gaza_(2007)

The elections in 2006 is not when Hamas took power. Their coup in 2007 was.

fosforus ,

Hamas and Israel are both enemies of the people.

Uhmm. Are you aware that Israel is #4 on the World Happiness Index this year? It’s the happiest non-scandinavic country in the world. You don’t get there by being “enemy of the people”.

Here are the rankings of Israel’s neighbors:

  • Egypt
  • Jordan
  • Lebanon (second worst of all measured)
  • State of Palestine

Israel is obviously not the problem in that area.

Excrubulent ,
@Excrubulent@slrpnk.net avatar

Wow, extremely wealthy country propped up by imperialism has a high happiness rating compared to extremely poor countries being stomped on by that same imperial war machine.

Surely the poor countries are the problem.

fosforus ,

You must understand that you cannot explain it away like that. Palestine perhaps you might, but funnily enough, it’s the happiest country of those four.

Excrubulent ,
@Excrubulent@slrpnk.net avatar

Why not? Literally just give any explanation. You didn’t even try to explain in your first comment how “happiness” has anything to do with this.

fosforus ,

Why not? Literally just give any explanation.

Egypt’s, Jordan’s and Lebanon’s bad standings in the happiness scale cannot in any way be explained away by Israel. Just because you lost several wars against an enemy several decades ago isn’t enough to explain any of it. So it’s all on them. As I said, Palestine’s bad situation might be explained by Israel, but again, it’s the happiest of those four.

You didn’t even try to explain in your first comment how “happiness” has anything to do with this.

You said that both Hamas and Israel are the enemies of the people. I disproved that notion by noting how Israel is #4 happiest country in the world. My apologies, I thought the inference was obvious.

Excrubulent ,
@Excrubulent@slrpnk.net avatar

I didn’t blame it on Israel, I said the imperial war machine. Israel the state is also the product of capitalist imperialism, but they are the beneficiary. I made that pretty clear I think.

The poor countries on that list are all the target of structural adjustment policies, which basically say “you need to neglect your population and become indentured servants, and if you don’t we will fucking glass your country.” That last part about glassing them isn’t in the text, but it’s clearly implied by the context these policies take place in. Also the leaders are usually bribed so they will agree more readily.

And just because Israeli citizens are “happy” according to some index that you’ve not actually shared, just insisted does exist, has nothing to do with whether the state is on their side. They are generally extremely wealthy people living in an extremely wealthy state that is propped up by US spending. The people who live there are expats from wealthy western countries, which is a privileged sample of a privileged sample.

I’ll refer you to Hank’s Razor: “Anything that can be explained by socioeconomic status in a society, it’s probably that rather than the thing that you’re measuring.”

This is almost certainly entirely socioeconomic status, directly influenced by geopolitics.

Also, Israel’s genocide is not making their people safer. It is endangering them enormously. The state just can’t stop genociding because it’s been given a green light by the US imperial war machine, and that’s just how states behave when they have that kind of power.

fosforus ,

capitalist imperialism

Are you aware that this is a marxist concept?

Excrubulent ,
@Excrubulent@slrpnk.net avatar

That’s it? That’s all you’ve got? “marxist”? Literally no argument at all.

MxM111 ,

My impression is that at least half of fediverse.

rastilin ,

My impression is that at least half of fediverse.

I got that impression too, and the fediverse has lost a lot of its shine recently. People are rushing to say that they support "both sides" and Israel can defend itself... but just not in any way that would be able to stop another attack like October's from happening. It feels like a lot of people just want to side with Hamas, but don't want to actually say that out loud.

BraveSirZaphod ,
@BraveSirZaphod@kbin.social avatar

It's been a very eye-opening experience over the past month to see just how little the left cares about victims of violence if they happen to be Jewish.

Shardikprime ,

The leftists always have been nazis at heart

probablyaCat ,

Nah. Don't let the current situation fool you. You've seen that I'm very pro-Israel in my other comments. But there are many of us that are lefties through and through. I mean most Jews in the US lean slightly left of the democrats. I lean further. And David ben Gurion was super leftist. Hardcore socialist commie pinko, that one. If I had been around for the founding of Israel, I'd probably have been kicking back on a kibbutz somewhere.

But the right is definitely not our friend. Most of them support Israel for christo-fascist dreams of the apocalypse. They want to use us. And we should be careful to think that we are the ones using them.

I do not know where you are from, but especially concerning the US and Europe, I do think it's important to understand where this support comes from -- even if they don't actually know it either. It's the underdog problem. Israel is much stronger than in the past. We have won many wars against people who wished to murder us all. We became a force to be reckoned with. And the Palestinian territories are the underdog. And the left has normalized seeing the underdog as the marginalized victim. They are not used to seeing an underdog victimizer. From South Africa to Ireland to PoCs and the LGBT+ communities, they are used to things going one way. And things are not one way. There is a whole 3d plane of possibilities in this world. And that's why I argue more about Israel than anything else on here. To try to help people see that things are not black and white. This isn't a left or right issue. This isn't a David vs Goliath issue. This is something that cannot be boiled down to simple concepts or comparisons. And the more you know, the harder it really is to if not agree with what Israel is doing, to at least understand why they might make the choices they do. And it is not for the sole purpose of ethnic cleansing or genocide. At least not for the majority.

assassin_aragorn ,

As someone on the left, I can’t exactly disagree. When there’s violence against Jews, some people constantly bring up Israel. They respond to a story about antisemitism being on the rise by saying criticism of Israel isn’t antisemitism. And it’s ironic, because by saying that about antisemitic attacks, they’re the ones confusing the two.

This needs to be pointed out to them more often. I don’t think most of them realize it.

TheDankHold ,

They aren’t going about this in a way that stops this from happening is the problem. You’re so wrapped up in the Zionist narrative that they’ve tricked you into thinking extermination is the final solution.

Britain didn’t get rid of the IRA by bombing and blockading Ireland. There was no ground invasion despite thousands dying in bombings and other violence.

The fact is that the attack in October and others like it happen because the extreme Zionists like Likud have taken steps to ensure this. Because they’re creating a situation where they can be horrifically brutal but hide behind good pr narratives. They literally propped up Hamas at its inception with the stated goal of fracturing Fatah which was a moderate party suing for a two state solution.

As long as Israel keeps killing Palestinians in the West Bank where there IS NO HAMAS, they will keep driving support for any group that resists Israel.

You can get far more innocent civilians on your side if you treat them better than Hamas. Knowing everything we know about how Hamas treats them should tell you just how bad Israel treats them on top of that.

You stop this by removing the war mongers from power first and foremost. As long as Netanyahu’s party has control there can never be peace. Because like Hamas, they want a one state solution too.

lolcatnip ,

You must be reading a very different slice of the fediverse than I am. I’ve been blocking Nazis, tankies, and other assorted idiots on sight since I started using Lemmy, and I’ve seen maybe a handful of people saying things that could be interpreted as supporting Hamas. They are vastly outnumbered by people decrying the slaughter of civilians and apologists for Israel.

fer0n , (edited )

I made the mistake of commenting on this post where people clearly think that the Hamas are the good guys and have every right to do what they do. Apologies for linking to it.

TheDankHold ,

Of course if you go to tankie central you get tankies. They’re also acting like Putin didn’t order the shelling and capture of Ukrainian cities and it’s all just (insert kremlin talking point here).

They are a specific niche of political mind. The kind that only thinks western nations are capable of propaganda and evil. Don’t take them as representative of smarter people.

fer0n ,

Yeah, I shouldn’t have commented. That post ended up in my hot/all feed and I didn’t really look at the community. I was frankly quite confused as to what’s up with these people until I saw the upvoted Russian propaganda comment which cleared things up quite a bit.

TokenBoomer , (edited )

I think one of my neighbors is a tankie, his car is really big.

Edit: Found this, The Useful Idiots”: How Activists Spread Marxism Across America

Shardikprime ,

Bro even in the world news and the news instance they are all over Hamas. If they could, they would give him a BJ

MudMan ,
@MudMan@kbin.social avatar

If you're coming to any international conflict, but specially to this one, from a "good guys/bad guys" framework you're absolutely not helping.

Sometimes (a lot of times, sadly) all you get in a particular issue is just assholes all the way down. Unsurprisingly, deadly military conflicts where both sides have proven at best a callous disregard for civilian casualties practically requires the asshole pile to be expansive and thorough.

The question is how you get the endless, writhing mass of assholes to stop. Which isn't looking great right now.

Zippit ,

Piece of shit, pouring oil onto fire while the civilians are getting slaughtered at this point on both sides. If there is hell, this one should burn.

Edit: I’ve never seen anyone defend Hamas, only civilian Palestinians. Just to make that clear distinction.

Shardikprime ,

Bro you merely have to look at this thread and the weekly world news/news threads to see leftists terrorist apologizers

Zippit ,

That’s why I’m trying to limit my time here, but I also just want to follow the news and see some cat pics.

Best thing to do is condemn terrorist Hamas on the one side and Netanyahu/IDF/extremist settlers that harass West bank palestinians on the other side.

And pray for the Jewish and Palestinian civilians. Because they are the ones suffering.

frequenttimetraveler ,
@frequenttimetraveler@lemmy.world avatar

This is an 100 year conflict, all the good guys are dead.

Why do people feel this need to be good/bad. Everybody knows by now how complex is the middle east

Shardikprime ,

Literally supporting terrorists and apologize for them is bad

frequenttimetraveler ,
@frequenttimetraveler@lemmy.world avatar

you shouldn’t do that then

AnonTwo ,

Nobody said they were.

edit: okay crazy people on a lemmygrad site said they were. But that page that guy linked looked about as nice as a 4chan site....

fosforus ,

Somebody told me recently on here that “Hamas is facing a genocide” apparently without any sort of irony or remorse.

blanketswithsmallpox ,

Considering I’ve been banned from World News at even suggesting reality in regards to how militaries fight in such conflicts…

Yeah, even mods are ban happy regarding Israel/Palestine lol.

alaphic ,

Antisemitic people, if I had to make a guess

Shardikprime ,

Mostly leftists

assassin_aragorn ,

I still don’t understand what’s so hard about condemning antisemitism and giving them the boot. You can’t truly be left wing, at least socially, if you aren’t making it clear bigots aren’t welcome.

We’ve come full circle now too – they’ve mixed up criticism of Israel and antisemitism.

xc2215x ,

They most certainly are not.

HelixDab2 ,

Hamas killed 1400 civilians.

The IDF has killed about 9500 civilians so far.

I dunno, I think that Hamas may not be the good guys, but they’re definitely the less bad guys.

SaakoPaahtaa ,

Give hamas same weaponry and intel as profoundly shit as IDF and israel might as well be one big crater

HelixDab2 ,

Okay, but they don’t. And they likely never will.

Right now it’s like a 6yo child that punches you as hard as they can in the balls, and you respond by beating the fuck out of them with a tire iron. The fact that you could straight-up murder the child by shooting them in the fucking face doesn’t mean that breaking every bone in their hands along with both legs to “teach them a lesson” would be appropriate or proportionate.

SaakoPaahtaa ,

For sure, but that wasn’t really my point, which was intentions and goals. Hamas is not a “good guy” since they will take every chance of murdering and kidnapping israeli citizens if it’s by high-precision missiles or fucking gliders straight out of a comic book, and israelis aren’t the “good guys” for barraging palestinian civvies while taking tiktoks.

I feel vile for all this good guys bad guys rhetoric ffs gotta take a showa

HelixDab2 ,

Oh, I’m not saying that Hamas is good guys. They’re not. They’re terrorists.

But by the scope and scale, by the amount of force that they’re able to bring to bear, and by the sheer number of non-combatants being killed, the IDF is far, far worse. Hamas targeted civilians on purpose, the IDF is simply indiscriminate.

The Allied forces utilized the tactics of total-war during WWII, with things like the firebombing of Dresden, or Tokyo. The idea was to break the will of the people to fight. Well, spoiler: it doesn’t work. When you kill someone’s whole family, their friends, blow up their house and community, they end up having an even stronger desire to fight back. Just like the bombings of London by Germany increased the resolve of Britons, so did the indiscriminate massacre of civilians by the Allies increase the resolve of the Germans.

The actions of the IDF are going to give Hamas it’s next generation of fighters, people willing to die to kill Israel.

assassin_aragorn ,

Hamas targeted civilians on purpose, the IDF is simply indiscriminate.

I think the former is way worse. Besides, there’s no point in debating this. They’re both horrible. Agreed? Then let’s move on.

dangblingus ,

Israel did knowingly bomb a refugee camp. Twice. Kind of hard to defend that behavior as “self defense”.

SaakoPaahtaa ,

Replying to a wrong comment perhaps?

Akasazh ,
@Akasazh@feddit.nl avatar

Tactically their October 7 attack was incredibly silly, honestly what did they think would happen?

They gave Netanyahu, who was finally fumbling at the reigns after almost thirty years aan excuse to execute his wet dreams and all of Israel uniting behind him.

I see no way how they could have thought the attack would benefit their cause.

dangblingus ,

Only tankies. Literally no one out here with a braincell is defending Hamas.

TokenBoomer , (edited )

They support Hamas? I’m not voting for them ever again. Obama was a tankie.

assassin_aragorn ,

That isn’t what a tankie is at all. A tankie is someone who defends authoritarian governments because the governments are “left wing” or rivals of the US. Having a left wing economic policy isn’t even close. Hell you can be a Communist and still not be a tankie.

Shardikprime ,

Like the 90% of lemmy are terrorists apologizers at this point

snek ,
@snek@lemmy.world avatar

More like they get accused of doing so even though their comment didn’t mention Hamas and they were talking about Palestinian rights, and somewhere someone pops up telling them they sympathize with Hamas.

Soulg ,

Yeah it’s pretty much this almost every time

Psychodelic ,

Lemmy users: why has Israel intentionally killed 3500+ children in such a short time?

People that support/ignore genocide like Shardikprime: why do you support Hamas?

TropicalDingdong ,

Hamas and Netanyahus rhetoric; name a more iconic due.

These fuckers fit hand and fucking glove.

avidamoeba ,
@avidamoeba@lemmy.ca avatar

Like a well oiled meat grinder.

MxM111 ,

Netanyahu does not state that killing of civilians is his goal, nor does IDF purposely do that. Imagine the amount of civilian deaths if it were actually IDF’s goal, as it is for Hamas.

Quacksalber ,

This is an important distinction in my opinion. Does the IDF care if they kill palestinian civilians? No. But they aren’t actively trying to murder as many palestinian civilians as they can either.

snek ,
@snek@lemmy.world avatar

They aren’t? So why did they bomb Jabalia twice?

Quacksalber , (edited )

How should I know. What I do know however is that if the IDF wanted, they could kill many more Gazans.

snek ,
@snek@lemmy.world avatar

Seriously look at their actions and decide for yourself whether or not they are going out of their way to kill civilians or whether they are so careless they kill anyone on their way

The idea that the IDF would have to beat Gaza into a pulp so we can finally admit to ourselves that they don’t care about civilians is weak, not to mention a logical fallacy. This isn’t the indication to look for when war crimes happen. It’s the actions of the IDF themselves.

Just look at all the times Israel told civilians to move to one place them bombed the shit out of the place.

lolcatnip ,

Maybe they just want plausible deniability more than they want immediate genocide. It sure looks to me like that’s what they’re doing, and that it’s working.

Earthwormjim91 ,

Because Hamas has used it as a base for decades…

Just like every other piece of civilian infrastructure.

You say Jabalia like it hasn’t been a city since the 40s. It’s not some tent city. It’s a legitimate city that has been around for decades, which Hamas only took control of after 2007.

snek ,
@snek@lemmy.world avatar

Yes totally, that is enough excuse to shoot dead over a hundred people and wound hundreds more.

Tents or not, you’re basically saying Israel bombed a crowded area and I’m afraid they are losing this one in the media. 😊

It’s a refugee camp because people who live there are more victims of Israeli displacement.

Earthwormjim91 ,

It’s not a refugee camp at all. It’s a city that has existed for almost a century.

You can cheer for Hamas. Your emojis don’t mean shit lol. Nobody else supports them. Even “the media” (you sound like my drug addicted religious dad here).

snek ,
@snek@lemmy.world avatar

First, I didn’t cheer for Hamas.

Also, That area is still a refugee camp. You are confusing Jabalia city with the Jabalia refugee camp.. It’s okay to be wrong, you just have to admit it to yourself.

And the very fact that somehow bombing people taking refuge in a city rather than a refigee camp is something you needed to point out as though that changes anything … That’s very telling.

And lastly, Israel is losing the media war. 😊 It’s not sustainable to kill more people and get away with it, not when even holocaust historians are alarmed at the Israeli rhetoric and massacre it keeps committing on a daily basis.

steventhedev OP ,

Jabalia Refugee Camp was established in 1948.

It’s not a temporary housing measure. The buildings are all high-density multi-family dwellings constructed from reinforced concrete.

Calling it a refugee camp cheapens the word for people who are displaced from their homes and forced into temporary housing during a war.

snek ,
@snek@lemmy.world avatar

It’s still a refugee camp. It houses refugees who have been displaced. Many Palestinian refugee camps are X number of years old because Israel has been ethnically cleansing them for decades. It doesn’t matter how you define it, no one “made shit up”, it’s classed as a refugee camp. The UN set it up as a camp, but here comes some random regular jackoff on lemmy trying to tell us otherwise.

The audacity of pro-Israelis in twisting all international definitions is beyond me.

Again, the very fact that it’s been a refugee camp for decades where people have shitty living conditions makes this bombing that Israel did worse, not better.

steventhedev OP ,

The people living in that camp were done dirty by the 1949 armistice, don’t get me wrong. But it’s been 75 years; they need to move on.

Palestinians are literally the only refugees on the planet who pass down refugee status to their children. That’s based on the definition that the UN made up because the Arab countries didn’t want to take in Palestinians.

They’ve had 75 years to move out of that camp and make their own lives better. At some point, they need wipe the snot off their noses and stop crying. The Jews who were ethnically cleansed from the Arab countries faced adversity when they moved to Israel, but they’ve moved on and made their lives much better.

toallpointswest ,
@toallpointswest@mastodon.cloud avatar

@steventhedev @snek The Jews didn't "move on" , they literally created "Zionism" and STOLE land they had only a mere historical connection to. Your entire post was completely delusional

snek ,
@snek@lemmy.world avatar

It’s called the right of return. That’s what you get when you create an apartheid state that does ethnic cleansing for breakfast.

steventhedev OP ,

It’s wonderful to see you agree that Arab Jews also have a right of return, and deserve reparations for their stolen assets during the ethnic cleansing of Jews from Muslim countries

EDIT: I’m trolling you with this comment, but I feel a little bad about it. Let’s just agree to disagree and take the rest of the day to cool off

snek ,
@snek@lemmy.world avatar

Of course they do. What happened during that time was wrong.

I’m trolling you with this comment, but I feel a little bad about it. Let’s just agree to disagree and take the rest of the day to cool off

I think you mostly talk out of your ass, but that’s okay.

toallpointswest ,
@toallpointswest@mastodon.cloud avatar

@steventhedev @snek Oh wait, I misspoke, the "Jews" of the 1940's didn't have a "historical" connection to the last, they only had a RELIGIOUS connection to the land. Religion doesn't convey physical property rights, so talk about making shit up.

davepleasebehave ,

what a shill. no where did the above comment support Hammas.

fosforus ,

Jabalia refugee camp consists of an area that is 1,4 km^2^. It had a registered population of about 50 000 inhabitants in 2017, who knows how much these days. It’s not exactly a small place, even if the term “refugee camp” might give that image.

So who knows. Perhaps they’re just murdering civilians, or perhaps a place like that is a perfect breeding ground for extremism.

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jabalia_refugee_camp

snek ,
@snek@lemmy.world avatar

Exactly. Israel bombed a giant refugee camp. How is this helping Israel’s case?

fosforus ,

I dunno, as – believe it or not – I’m not part of IDF. But you can of course wonder: are they fighting a popularity war or an actual one?

HelixDab2 ,

Well, I, for one, hope that the IDF is finally fucking losing the popularity war. Until the US stops propping them up no matter what, they have no incentive to seriously work towards peace.

If they were fighting an actual war, then the leaders of Israel would be pulled into the ICC for war crimes.

bingbong ,

Quick update, they bombed it a third time today

Plopp ,

Being so incredibly nonchalant about killing civilians as the IDF is it’s almost an insignificant difference imo.

bus_go_fast ,

Lol bullshit.

Barbarian ,
@Barbarian@sh.itjust.works avatar

Your argument might have more weight if the head of national security wasn’t a former member of the Kach party, a group Israel designated a terrorist group in 1994.

fosforus ,

“When he came of age for conscription into the Israel Defense Forces at 18, he was exempted from service by the IDF due to his extreme-right political background.”

What a guy. I thought militaries (and police) love those people.

DanL4 ,

Israeli military is not for volunteers, it’s for everyone. The top ranking generals and chiefs of staff were prominent against Netanyahu and this extremist incompetent government. They are also said that human rights activists that give a voice to solders that saw atrocious acts of the idf itself. This is not the norm, contrary to what the media would have you think. This, according to the top ranking Israeli ex officers, is how the idf should fix its wrongs.

RememberTheApollo_ ,

But they kill plenty anyway.

Oops?

Shardikprime ,

Right human shields don’t exist

RememberTheApollo_ ,

Both can exist. Don’t get binary.

assassin_aragorn , (edited )

They bombed a refugee camp. Twice.

If I were a military commander in WW2 with the same technology we have today, and Hitler was out in the open at an elementary school graduation next to a preschool, I would not make that order. Instead, I’d mobilize intelligence agents to get there immediately and tail him, while moving my forces nearby.

I find it hard to believe that Israeli military and intelligence agencies could not track him and wait. The IDF just cares more about their own skin than they do of Palestinian children.

MrSpArkle ,

It took the US 10 years to track down Bin Laden, all the while he was still communicating with cells. In your example that is a LOT of quality holocaust time for Hitler.

There is no easy way out of the trolley problem of slippery genocidal targets popping up with a limited time window to execute.

lolcatnip ,

He doesn’t? timesofindia.com/world/…/104802548.cms

bus_go_fast ,

Netanyahu does not state that killing of civilians is his goal, nor does IDF purposely do that.

Wrong. Cannot believe how many people upvoted this comment. He literally stated that he wanted to two days ago. Jesus christ.

Earthwormjim91 ,

Netanyahu: Hamas is a terrorist organization that wants to eliminate the Jewish nation

Hamas: yeah he’s right

SlikPikker ,

That’s why Nethanyahu funded them.

All his investments paid off in this neat little casus belli.

ours ,

He allowed Hamas to be funded but it’s still horrific the hand he had in making this monster. He allowed Hamas to grow so it would fight those looking to negotiate toward a two-state solution.

Shardikprime ,

Proof or it didn’t happen

Five ,

I think this is what @SlikPikker is talking about:

For years, the various governments led by Benjamin Netanyahu took an approach that divided power between the Gaza Strip and the West Bank — bringing Palestinian Authority President Mahmoud Abbas to his knees while making moves that propped up the Hamas terror group.

The idea was to prevent Abbas — or anyone else in the Palestinian Authority’s West Bank government — from advancing toward the establishment of a Palestinian state.

Thus, amid this bid to impair Abbas, Hamas was upgraded from a mere terror group to an organization with which Israel held indirect negotiations via Egypt, and one that was allowed to receive infusions of cash from abroad.

Hamas was also included in discussions about increasing the number of work permits Israel granted to Gazan laborers, which kept money flowing into Gaza, meaning food for families and the ability to purchase basic products.

Israeli officials said these permits, which allow Gazan laborers to earn higher salaries than they would in the enclave, were a powerful tool to help preserve calm.

Toward the end of Netanyahu’s fifth government in 2021, approximately 2,000-3,000 work permits were issued to Gazans. This number climbed to 5,000 and, during the Bennett-Lapid government, rose sharply to 10,000.

Since Netanyahu returned to power in January 2023, the number of work permits has soared to nearly 20,000.

Additionally, since 2014, Netanyahu-led governments have practically turned a blind eye to the incendiary balloons and rocket fire from Gaza.

Meanwhile, Israel has allowed suitcases holding millions in Qatari cash to enter Gaza through its crossings since 2018, in order to maintain its fragile ceasefire with the Hamas rulers of the Strip.

Most of the time, Israeli policy was to treat the Palestinian Authority as a burden and Hamas as an asset. Far-right MK Bezalel Smotrich, now the finance minister in the hardline government and leader of the Religious Zionism party, said so himself in 2015.

Excerpt from For years, Netanyahu propped up Hamas. Now it’s blown up in our faces by Tal Schneider and published by The Times of Israel.

SlikPikker ,

Just so!

Syntha ,

Nowhere does this say that Netanyahu funded Hamas.

xc2215x ,

Both of them have caused so much harm.

ghostdoggtv ,

Hurricane of shit meeting tornado of blood

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