It’s an end of an era. I’ve been on reddit for over a decade, and on youtube for even longer. Crazy to think I might be giving up both of those services within a few months of each other. Feels like the internet is dying. Oh well. Maybe I’ll go back to reading a shitload.
Other way around for me, 14+ years on reddit, youtube maybe 8 or so. Watched videos occasionally, but wasn’t really hooked on something. I feel that started when reddit got more mainstream and I wanted to consume media without the constant comment wars and downvote tirades. I’m sure that happens on youtube as well, but I just deactivated comments and done.
I’m not getting any ads and intrusions just yet with my blocker setup, but it really feels like the internet is changing. It grew up from being a rebellious teen to a mainstream adult, and that doesn’t sit right with me. Guess current generations will in time alienate the generation older than the internet to the point where we won’t feel at home anymore.
That’s a good analogy. The internet’s kind of like a gen-Xer, super into anti-establishment punk and grunge music, wearing nothing but Nirvana t-shirts well into its twenties, who woke up one day to find itself a NIMBY-esque middle-manager who votes every election for either corporate democrats or your mildly less homophobic Republican candidates and who cares about no issue beyond getting his taxes lowered. And the sad thing is, that’s the internet people wanted. We/they wanted it banal, tame, sanitized, and, ultimately, lifeless. All the porn is sequestered into its own little corner of things, where it used to just be everywhere (you couldn’t go to the front page of reddit without just seeing a ton of T and A) and all the media is hyper-sanitized because corporate sponsors want everything family friendly so they can feed the same advertising to kids that they do adults. And instead of interesting, new websites cropping up every other week that you find with Stumbleupon, it’s just screenshots of comments from 4 social media websites reposted ad-nauseam on each other and the same mundane youtube videos you’ve been watching on repeat the past 6 years. And now corporations like Google and Reddit are starting to go the extra mile and box people out of even quietly bypassing the web of bullshit they’ve put around the content they host, dictating not just what kind of content is available, but how you interact with it.
It kind of reminds me of this passage from Fear and Loathing in Las Vegas, where Hunter S. Thompson is talking about the sixties. You can read it here. He talks about strange memories, about this feeling like you were a part of an important time that meant something. The internet of the early 2010s was a special place. Alive and vibrant and strange and perfect for weirdo loners who couldn’t figure out how to interact with people in real life. I don’t think I’ll ever be able to fully quantify or describe how much of that time shaped me into who I am, or about what ideas and thoughts and beliefs that live within me that all those moments, aimlessly frittered away in some little corner of cyberspace gave rise to. Maybe I would have been better off if I never was an “internet person.” I know the changing of the time and the end of this era would hurt less. I know I wouldn’t feel so old seeing the internet, which was once something that felt like a good friend, dying of cancer-like greed and the pathological centralization of all its myriad services.
Perhaps this is the story of all history: of how new frontiers, like the “Wild West,” always become settled, and how we remember the best parts of what we experienced and try to forget all the bad parts of it, or forgive those flaws because they didn’t really affect us. I know the new internet is certainly kinder to women, LGBT persons, and people of color today than it was back then. And that’s good. And I know that the myths of history, of the Wild West, or the Gold Rush, or the early internet, or any other period of rapid settlement and development is never as neat and clean or as kind or even as “real” as we care to remember. And for the people who come afterwards, the way things are now will be all they know. They’ll never even think to wish the internet was different or better, because they weren’t there and they didn’t experience the internet with all its raw potential before it became a digital stripmall. And for all our lamenting, nothing will really change. There might be holdout places, small corners where nostalgia lives on. Virtual retirement homes for the internet’s senior citizens. And maybe that’s fine. Because nothing lasts forever. Things, people, places, ideas, they all die, and you just have to appreciate the time you had with them. And even the internet as it is now will die and give way to something new, even if it takes decades or centuries to happen.
But even with all that said, you just can’t help but wish the thing it became, in this moment, held more of the dreams of the people who actually helped make it.
That was easily the best-written, deepest-resonating diatribe that I’ve read on the Internet since the OG web. Thank you for giving voice to the pain I’ve been enduring.
Perhaps the whispered decentralized web 3.0 will take off, and I can meet you someday in the virtual tavern at the top of a hill, and we can toast to an exciting new frontier…
I was reading Bruce Sterling’s book the hacker crackdown and it describes the same sense of cultural freedom and possibility, but for phones/computers in the 80s and 90s and of how the open/freewheeling hacker culture got eaten by people turning to moneymaking (crime) and by subsequent government crackdowns. He even explicitly mentions how the same thing happened to the bohemian drug underground of the 60s
So I suspect this cultural pattern is kind of a regular thing, maybe mirroring our economic boom/bust cycles. Iirc both the oughts and the 60s were “on” decades while the 70s and teens had big economic crises.
For me personally the saddest instance of this is the proliferation of cultural and social experimentation in the early Soviet Union followed by well, the rest of soviet history
That sounds like an interesting book. I really like cybercultural history like that. There’s a book with an adjacent topic you might like, actually. It’s called The Cuckoo’s Egg by Clifford Stoll. He managed to start this massive investigation into a fairly prolific hacker who had infiltrated Berkeley computer systems in the late eighties and whose only “trail” he left behind was a few cents worth of network usage time. It’s a true story. Anyway, just a heads up.
Same I’ve been on YouTube since at least 2006 so almost 18 years 😭 (I’m turning 30 soon for reference) That’s a long ass time to be using any service. Times have changed
Evolution implies that old things die and new things take their place. The thing taking its place is comparatively worse than the thing that came before it, though.
I’ve been reading a lot more lately, and dear god, for your own sake, please do. I’ve been so much happier and less anxious reading books vs random internet garbage. Highly recommend.
Clearly you’re reading actual books, don’t drop down the webnovel rabbit hole. All those damn stories are designed to scratch an itch you never knew you had until you’re subbed to a dozen patreon’s paying way more than if you’d waited for a book release.
That’s good to hear. I’ve started reading Leonard and Hungry Paul and I like it so far. I’ve also started reading China Mieville’s The City and the City, which is also good, but Mieville has this weird thing where the more plot his novels have the worse they are. He’s great at describing a city as a living, breathing thing, though. That’s why the best parts of Perdido Street Station were the first 100 pages or so before the actual story really got started. Hopefully this novel doesn’t suffer from the same problems.
I’m wondering whether all these things we do on the internet have been shit all along but they have just reached a threshold we can’t tolerate any more, no matter how addicted we are to it. Torrenting ebooks and films and then going into aeroplane mode is the way forward imo.
I’m not sure what you’re asking? By the webui I just mean the default web interface of any lemmy instance (i.e. not through an alternative frontend or app)
Thank you. I’m with you now. I just migrated over because I used Boost on Reddit and received a notification Boost was now available on this new platform 👍
That crazy part he did it for no reason. I am so glad to not be chasing karma no more. Unfortunately I still will go back here in Lemmy and see all my posts and comments see how they are doing.
Didn’t realize just how addictive I was to those stupid upvotes.
I never would have seen this without the “repost”. I don’t get why people are so offended about seeing something again. Don’t like it? Saw it before? Keep scrolling then.
No, you could not be more wrong. We did not leave reddit just for the admins, we also hoped to leave low effort posts and outright lies behind, there’s no karma here so what’s even the point of OP?
That’s a fantastic joke from Futurama. At Farnsworth’s…roast?..Bender steps to the podium and says "And now, a man who needs no introduction, " and walks off.
I think all the people who are recommending things like Firefox plus uBlock are missing the point. Mobile internet shouldn’t require that to be readable. It’s bad design and it should be discouraged. If you want advertising on your site, fine, but don’t make it so obtrusive that it makes the site literally unreadable.
No, they’re not missing the point. We all agree that mobile should have readability, it’s just that the reality is we have no way to enforce it. Also, Firefox extensions like “Automatic Reader View” allow you to whitelist websites and force Firefox Reader view by default, as an attempt to create a plage more like what you are looking for without needing top down force that it would require to fix the issue (we all know chrome won’t do it)
That was the whole premise behind r/the_donald back on Reddit, and it started as irony and then the numbskulls who don’t get or don’t care about “irony” and “satire” showed up and meme’d Trump to four nightmarish years as President.
I know he’s not Hitler or anything, but the book of Hitler’s speeches on his nightstand that his ex-wife told us about tells us he definitely admired Hitler, absolutely disgusting.
He could very well become as bad as Hitler, I think he’s the same kind of psychopath. The parallels are uncanny, AH and Trump are both ridiculous figures that’s why they are underestimated until it’s too late. Also the speech on January 6th and the accompanying video are fully, unapologetically “Nazi” to a degree Goebbels would have been proud (the “we’ve been so nice to them”) speech.
My understanding is that there had been an ongoing concern on /r/piracy that they would get shut down at some point, that this had been a concern in the past, and so the other stuff like the API restrictions and the rest of the spez drama was kind of just adding to the big factor pushing people away -- that the community could vanish at any time.
The lead mod on /r/piracy also set up a dedicated instance -- there was definite commitment -- made it clear that he was making the move, and was demodded on /r/piracy, so there were factors creating more inertia.
Those are all factors that did not generally exist for other communities.
IPO goals made it seem piracy days on reddit were numbered, so those with foresight were itching for a new place off reddit and leapt at the opportunity to find a new place.
You should try dog if you get the chance, Elwood dog farm has a low impact factory farm where you can buy Labrador cuts and some gamier breeds if they’re in stock.
I mean I could but I have a nearly limitless supply of rabbits in my yard. Their fur makes great gifts. My plants love the compost I get from everything else. As a bonus the blood compost deters rabbits from eating my cabbage.
Funny thing, I can’t seem to find any type of vegan certification that is concerned with the use of animal byproducts or waste in fertilizer. A few specifically say they do not check fertilizer.
Don’t let perfection be the enemy of good. If everyone stopped eating animals, there’d be no surplus of blood and bone for fertilisers, and other plant based by-products would fill the space.
As for the rabbits, I actually have a small Australian shepherd that runs through my lawn chasing the wallabies that meander by, I’ve been meaning to trap it and humanely slaughter it, the blue coat would make a great gift! And if the owner comes by looking for Bella, I could trap him and humanely slaughter him too. He looks a bit simple, so it seems ethical to me? He’d make good compost, that’s for true.
Actually a lot of organic farms rely on blood and bone meal, manure and fish emulsion fertilizers. They’re inexpensive as they’re byproducts of other industries and are very good for plants.
When I worked in an organic greenhouse I often wondered about how vegans would feel about farmers using animal based fertilizers. We definitely told people what we used, as we sold those products, but no one ever said anything about it. I guess vegans can’t control that so maybe it’s a nonissue unless they grow their own food and use seaweed based fertilizer(more expensive) instead?
Does that work long term on a commercial scale without egg shells/ bone meal? Afaik, there needs to be an additional source of calcium, but that could of course also supplement crop rotation/fallowing.
Though tbf, limestone is very soft and I could see supplementing with ground limestone.
I have no intent to deceive. There’s a moral inconsistency amongst meat eaters. Pigs are okay, dogs are not. Why? “Oh, because we like dogs” Does that mean I can eat any sentient thing I dislike? “Well, no, dogs are intelligent!” Pigs are smarter than most breeds of dog, and have equal capabilities for emotion.
There is no logical argument against veganism in western society. Literally none. Meat eaters collectively breed and kill literally billions of animals per year, destroying the planet, because it’s yummy. Meat eaters have essentially caused swine flu, bird flu, ebola, corona virus, just for the taste of meat. Meat eaters are causing treatment resistant bacteria by abusing antibiotics on high intensity farming, all for meat. That’s crazy.
No it’s not. It being a “gotcha” does not mean it’s wrong. In fact, it is still right, you’re just wrong and think the person you reply to is wrong because they disagree with you.
You aren’t the sharpest tool in the shed, are you?
If you mean that “gotchas” (your words, not mine) cannot ever be logically sound, you’ll have to make a demonstration. Until you’ve done the work, enjoy being wrong.
Hahaha just answer the question. You’re like that meme that goes “APPEAL TO AUTHORITY, STRAWMAN FALLACY” in the middle of a normal conversation. Likr, if you’re in a debate and someone pushes your argument into a corner, you can’t go “no, judged the opposing team is using gotcha arguments that make mine look foolish, I object”.
Hey it’s only a trap if your argument falls for it. When have I lied? Stop arguing weird imagined semantics and actually reply like a human. Why do you think it’s okay to kill and consume sentient life?
HAHAHAHAHAHAHA. You literally can’t reply, this is honestly my favourite anti-vegan argument I’ve ever had.
Alright alright, I’m all done. You clearly have no ability to argue, but it was a fun journey for me finding that out. With no capacity for understanding, I’ll block you now to ensure I don’t waste any more of our time.
Save your health, the life of animals and the life of the planet and eat plant-based.
The question “would you eat dog meat?” and your outrage at the question, while a gotcha, is a very solid way to point out your inconsistency. It’s by no means dishonest because it outlines your inconsistency without false pretense. You’re being asked a direct question, and you got got.
You don’t get a free get-out-of-jail card because you don’t like how this rhetorical device proved your position weak.
sophistry is shitty. they had no interest in a genuine discussion or learning anything: they’re just trying to show how right they are, regardless of the facts
The facts are there: the consumption of animal products the way it is done across the vast majority of the planet is not something you can rationalize: it’s bad for the consumers, bad for the environnement and, most of all, bad for the animals that are being slaughtered on a massive scale.
Don’t fool yourself: I’m not talking about the act of ingesting the flesh of dead animals, which could theoretically be done in a way that doesn’t have such a strong negative impact on everyone involved. I’m talking about what’s happening in the real world, which is very far from idealized “what if” theories that is pretty unattainable, and an artificial debate construction carnivores use in debates with vegans.
You and I consume animal products. The difference between the two of us is I find the moral objections to the consumption of dog meat to be rationally indefensible, and pretty ridiculous.
Do consume animal products if you like. I’m not a vegan, and I would be hypocritical to judge you based on that. Whatever you do though, just don’t make the mistake of assuming your moral system is universal because it’s pretty illogical.
There’s a lot of awful things in culture. It was culturally acceptable to slap a women on the bottom for a good job.
Your argument is “ah well”.
That’s not a reasonable defense for your objectively immoral actions. You are causing the suffering of sentient life for taste, that makes you immoral. Not to mention the horrible effect your diet has on the planet.
Okay, I believe it is morally reprehensible to kill a sentient being - one that feels fear and does not want to die, solely for pleasure. Eating meat is immoral and in a just world, would be punishable.
Sentience means “the capacity to have feelings”, and it is widely understood by the scientific community that the vast majority of the animal kingdom has sentience.
Do you believe cows can experience pain? Because we’re right up close against rejecting scientific consensus just to justify immoral actions. And that typically is frowned upon historically.
Subjecting something that feels pain to experience pain for your pleasure is immoral.
honestly i got sentience and sapience confused English isnt my first language, anyways point is it really doesnt matter that they feel pain that in no way affects this, and u know that it doesnt because if farm animals were first sedated before being killed it would not make u ok with it so stop being disingenuous.
You’re right. If farm animals were sedated before being killed, it would certainly be preferable, but wouldn’t make it right.
We have no right to cause pain, fear or death to sentient beings, purely for ~15 minutes or pleasure. Doing so is immoral. There is no valid argument against this. Trust me, I did NOT want to be a vegan. I argued against it for four years trying not to become one. But there was and is no argument against it. Eating meat is immoral, bad for the planet, bad for the animals, bad for modern medicine, and in a typical western diet, bad for your health.
I repeat, there is no argument against veganism, and being vegan is objectively he correct moral choice.
u keep saying there is no argument against veganism but reality is that there doesnt need to be one because there is also no argument FOR veganism, there is nothing immoral about eating meat, and u have not at any point presented an argument that would even suggest it is wrong, u just keep saying it is.
Okay, if you and I were sitting on a park bench together, and we saw a dog walk past, and I went off to go stomp the dog to death - would you think that was morally wrong of me? Would you try stop me?
i see the argument u are trying to make and its nonsense, almost everyone makes a distinction between killing something just for the fun of it and killing something to eat it, for 99.9999% of people those are completely different actions.
So if I then ate the dog it would be okay? Why does eating it make it better? Because eating it is pleasurable? It’s not necessary for survival in the western world to eat meat, it’s just yummy.
Why - in my hypothetical - is your pleasure derived for eating the animals flesh, more significant than my pleasure from dog stomping?
You’re contributing to the needless subjugation and slaughter of sentient life, purely for ease and pleasure. That’s what’s nonsense.
idk why eating it makes it better, but it does, and most people would agree with that. Morality and feelings arent some kind of objective truth u can just find and explain in exact detail. Maybe pleasure derived from eating is more valid because deriving pleasure from just killing something makes it clear that u are crazy and a danger to society, maybe its not that eating it makes it better but that doing it for no reason makes it worse, after all people kill rats and other pests all the time without eating them for the pleasure of not having them around and no one seems to mind.
And u keep saying things like “slaughter of sentient life” (which is a funny way of saying farming but whatever) as if thats somehow wrong but u have never said why it would be wrong.
And there it is. “I don’t know why”, followed by an appeal to the majority (most people at one time believed slavery was ok, that doesn’t mean it was morally justified).
Your argument has come down to “I don’t know why, but it just is”.
I have said countless times why I believe eating animals is wrong. It is objectively wrong to cause something pain and death purely for taste pleasure.
If your argument has boiled down to “it is what it is”, then I suppose we can finish off this back and forth. It was a good chat, I enjoyed it! Thank you
I said i dont know but i did posit a likely possibility. Thats called “not being full of shit” when i dont know i say it, and no there wasnt a time when most people believe slavery was ok, there were times when it was more accepted and less but at every point in history there was a very large number of people who opposed specially slaves idk if it was always a majority but it almost certainly was. Even in the history of amerikkka famous for its love of slavery and genocide if u actually study the “democratic” decisions that allowed slavery to persist in most cases the margins were very narrow which means that when u add… the slaves to the question (+people who didn’t own land and women and many other groups who would be less slaver friendly) its clear that slavers weren’t a majority. Please stop trying to legitimize slavers.
People have been eating meat since before people were people u coming here and suddenly asking me to justify it is like asking me why i dont like getting rained on or why i like drinking cold water better.
There is nothing objective about ur assertion, why would it be and who decided that, why would it be wrong to cause something pain and kill it just to eat it thats just something u said and have never justified in any way And besides as we have already established its not about pain and i doubt its about death either considering u are arguing for veganism not vegetarianism and even if u werent i doubt u would be ok with animals being sedated then having a body part that would regrow cut off and then eating that. So why do u keep coming back to pain and death, its catchy i guess?
Also no, my argument isnt it is what it is my argument is that u havent provided and argument against eating meat that u do infact refuse to provide one u just keep saying its wrong but never why, probably because u dont know because the reasons behind moral values are mostly unknowable which is why i also dont know but im not the one trying to impose my subjective morality on others am I?
And it has been fun tho obviously fruitless u were never going to change my mind and i wasnt even trying to change your, atleast not about eating meat, but i do hope u respect other peoples cultures, habits, and believes more.
It doesn’t help that the vegans are right. The meat industry is a nightmare, terrible for the environment, and pretty bad for our health.
It’s insane that most Americans eat meat every day.
If I could put 100% tax on meat tomorrow I would, but that’s political suicide, so it’ll never happen. It’d be easier to adjust than you think. There are plenty of delicious vegetarian options, and it’d be a lot easier to choose those if they were more common.
I eat meat because it’s culturally acceptable, delicious, ubiquitous, and I don’t believe I can make a noticeable difference. But that doesn’t mean I think it’s right.
I don’t believe I can make a noticeable difference.
Not eating meat won’t change the systemic problems but it will mean fewer animals will be subject to the industry. Over the course of a lifetime, the number of animals you can save adds up.
Also it’s a good habit to transfer thoughts and beliefs into actions.
What bizarre logic, what thorough lack of object permanence.
Just because meat eating outpaces veganism doesn’t mean vegans haven’t reduced the consumption of meat?
I don’t even think you know what you’re saying now. If the whole world went vegan today, there’d be no meat animal slaughter. YOU are the cause of this problem.
“Oh world hunger is getting worse, I better stop my charity donations!”
“Oh greenhouse gas emissions are on the rise, might as well go back to oil and gas!”
Like, you realise how foolish that argument is, right?
When you buy something, it tells the person who sold it to you to stock more of it, which tells the people making it to make more of it. Since meat production involves killing animals, it means that when you buy meat, it causes more animals to be killed. If you go vegan and stop buying meat, it causes there to be less demand, which reduces the number of animals killed compared to if you didn’t.
“Your honor, it’s true I purchased a hitman’s services, but I didn’t cause his actions. He made his own decision, it just happened to be the one I paid him to do.”
Why not? You’re saying that market signals don’t matter, it’s individual choice all the way down. You’re paying people to produce meat and put it on the shelves, but according to you, that doesn’t have any effect on the amount of meat produced and put on shelves. How is that not analogous to paying someone to kill someone and then pretending that that doesn’t make you complicit?
You don’t seem to understand how analogies work. You don’t get to just say “Nuh uh” when I follow your principles to their natural conclusions. That’s just a basic form of logical argumentation.
Since you seem incredibly confused about both how to argue and basic facts about reality, let me walk you through this.
You claimed that purchasing meat has no effect on whether more meat gets produced, because “they make their own decisions.” This argument rests on the completely insane premise that paying people to do things does not influence their behavior or make you complicit when they decide to do what you paid them to do. If this were true, it would lead to the absurd conclusion that hiring a hitman to kill someone would not make you complicit in the act, because, by your logic “they make their own decisions” regardless of who’s paying them to do what.
If you want to dispute that, you have to actually find a fault in that chain of reasoning, not just say, “Nuh uh” over and over again.
An argument’s a collective series of statements to establish a definite proposition. Contradiction’s just the automatic gainsaying of anything the other person says.
This argument rests on the completely insane premise that paying people to do things does not influence their behavior or make you complicit when they decide to do what you paid them to do.
If this were true, it would lead to the absurd conclusion that hiring a hitman to kill someone would not make you complicit in the act, because, by your logic “they make their own decisions” regardless of who’s paying them to do what.
again, this is completely disanalagous with buying meat on a shelf.
Again, you don’t get to just say, “No it isn’t” over and over again without actually explaining why it’s not analogous. That’s how basic reason works.
Also, you can put multiple things in one comment so you don’t spam the thread.
i’m not making an argument. i’m contradicting yours.
Yes, you’re literally just disagreeing with anything I (or anyone else on my side) says, with zero supporting evidence or reason. It’s not an argument, just contradiction. It’s obvious that’s what you’re doing, but still hilarious that you would come out and admit it.
wrong. i said it is not causal.
Can you please explain what the difference is between an action being causal of another action vs an action… causing another action to happen?
“Your honor, it’s true that the deceased died of blood loss after I stabbed them, however, the idea that they would’ve survived had I not stabbed them is a counterfactual and therefore cannot be proven at all.”
You can try some in Switzerland. While you can’t sell the meat, slaughtering and eating it is legal. There is farms where you can “make a donation” and they’ll invite you to dinner.
Gamey unless reared correctly. Better to eat pet dogs as the meat generally tastes juicier. It can sometimes be unpleasant bolting them before slitting their throats after they’ve lived inside for so long, but knowing they lived a happy life free of predators, and didn’t die of old age (try to kill before they become yearlings) makes it feel right.
What? Try harder to what? Don’t defend yourself in court hahahaha. “Does the defense have any closing statements?” “Uh yes your honour. Ahem. leans into mic t-try harder”
Apologies but this is just assumptions. Pet meat isn’t good quality. Your average commercial pet food uses hydrogenated oils for shelf longevity and that causes a very bitter flavor.
farm raised dog is usually fed on grain and suet or tallow, and avoids this problem.
Great, so we agree no animals are ethically off limits to kill and consume. How about… Some of the more simple minded human populace? Like, if through IQ testing we find the bottom 5% of humans, and (without eating brain and spine, avoiding prion diseases) feed them to the masses? They’re probably not terribly much smarter than dogs, and they could help curb food shortages. Or are humans off limits?
Only if you eat the brain or spinal column, which I was careful to add. Otherwise the risks are as manageable as with cow meat, i.e., parasites and bacteria. Given that you’re okay with eating cats and dogs, and now simple-minded humans, what’s to stop me from killing and eating you? I mean, all anyone needs to assert is that they’re mentally superior to their food, what’s off the table for you?
I’m sure mass scale cannibalism might actually be as good for the environment as a plant based diet. Maybe you’re on to something. We’d be so morally consistent!
go ahead a good third of my country thinks i shouldn’t exist anyway and im sick of fighting it, im sure i taste good too
you keep trying to push people into corners about this when most ppl who eat meat do it simply because it tastes good, has good nutritional value, and is easily accessible. for my two cents in w serious manor, the meat industry is fucked up and should be regulated, since you didn’t take my initial comment as the shitpost it is
there are moral concerns but for most people (majority will never even know what lemmy is) simply don’t care and will never care, because meat tastes good
Pushing people into corners is what good debate is about. If people find their refutations are weak enough to have them back into a corner, then they should abandon that argument.
I grew up on a farm in the south of New Zealand. My brothers were dairy farmers, my front yard was cattle, I was a staunch anti-vegan who swore he’d never eat vegetarian as long as he lived.
I will never care because meat tastes good. Except now I do.
There is no level of regulation that permits - in good moral conscience - the subjugation and slaughter of animals for our pleasure.
Meat is only easily accessible because it is heavily subsidized by the government. A vegan diet is nearly always cheaper - consider that most developing nations eat vegan/vegetarian because of this.
There’s a short book I read that absolutely convinced me of veganism called “This is Vegan Propaganda and Other Lies The Meat Industry Tells You”. I’ve had 5 people read it, and ALL FIVE have gone vegan. It’s straight up insane how brutal a grip the meat industry has on people, through lobbying, ad campaigns, purposeful obfuscation of the industry. Bananas!
i shouldve known i was getting into this before i decided to make that witty comment that came to my mind on a whim
i agree that the meat industry is a disaster, and i wish there was a proper compromise that could suit everyone. many people in the us simply dont care or have this moral consciousness in the first place because, again, meat tastes good
the solution in reality is to somehow get people eating less meats as we tackle the major issues we face today. making a burger that tastes identical to a traditional burger is not easy and it is as it stands now much more expensive anywhere you go, which isnt changing without baby steps
going out to eat in rural ny with a budget, my options that i can afford dont include vegan anything barring a side salad. im not giving up what nice things i can go out and enjoy until theres more options. call me selfish idrc, i have enough to deal with as it stands. not going to give up something that does make me happy like going out to eat with family to prove a point to an industry that doesnt even know i exist
not proofreading this or anything so if i come to reword anything i said thats womp womp for me ig. thats where i stand muting this thread now
“Meat tastes good” as an argument for immoral actions is not valid logic. “Sex feels good” is not valid justification for sexual assault. “Men taste good” is not justification for Jeffrey Dahmer.
“Let’s eat less meat”. Again, there is no valid moral argument for “just a little bit of sexual assault”. “Only a wee bit of animal abuse”, “only occasional racism”. A moral wrong is a moral wrong. But hey at least it isn’t “I’d go vegan, but I just love cheese!”. Well then go vegan but eat cheese.
As for rural NY, I’d use Happycow.net to find places. I’ve eaten vegan in rural Bali, rural NZ, rural Australia, rural England, and never paid more than my meat eating counterparts. But if that’s still a concern, then eat vegan at home, meat when going out.
Although I’d still argue that “it’s more convenient for me commit sexual assault than to hire a sex worker” isn’t a valid justification.
Seriously if you get the option, read that book I recommended, even just the first chapter. I can buy you a copy of you like, DM me an email address and I’ll gift a copy. If you read it, I will genuinely send you PayPal money for a vegan dinner in rural NY. I’ve taken everyone else who read the book out to dinner, it’s only fair you get a free one!
tip if you want to be an activist for something, don’t compare something the opposing party is doing to sexual assault. you and i both know that isn’t a valid comparison
Cows are forcibly impregnated in perpetuity by humans, separated from their children and then had their milk taken so we can drink it. As soon as the cow can longer be impregnated and becomes unprofitable, it is killed for meat.
If a man sticks his fist in the vagina of a cow for fun, it is sexual animal abuse. If a man sticks his fist in the vagina of a cow, hoping to later kill and eat it’s flesh, it’s lunch.
I think a comparison is valid. Just because you are a willing participant and enabler in this animal sexual exploitation does not invalidate or soften the facts.
do you trust the processing facilities for the underground dogmeat industry to even come close to choosing safety over profit in shaving that meat down as close to cartilage as possible?
Oh we’re talking about eating humans now, we’re well past dogs as it seems like a fair few people here would be okay with factory farming them.
Personally, my ethics are simple and easily define - if it displays sentience, I won’t eat it. It’s unethical to kill and eat something that feels pain. I’m more interested in your more nebulous ethics, where some species are okay to eat, some not
It sounds like you’re okay with eating dogs, which id argue is demonstrably disgusting, but in your opinion, is it okay to rear, kill and then eat humans?
Honestly in that case I think the risk of disease is so much greater than any moral question. There’s very few things more likely to open a vector for prion or parasite attack than eating your own kind. Plus as mentioned earlier we taste horrible.
And at least you could have gone the creative way of saying ‘What about farming bodies without brains for organ harvesting’ because at least that has some gray areas we can play with.
But NoooOOoo you had to come in with the pseudointellectual dick punch. I’m sure that was clever back on 9gag but we are on lemmy now so act like it.
Right, so the only thing stopping you from factory farming and consuming humans is risk of prion disease and taste? By which it could be understood that if those two issues were solved - no risk of disease, and the flavour enhanced, you would happily factory farm humans.
And vegans are the weird ones? Your priorities are cooked buddy.
I’m not suggesting that animal eating leads to cannibalism, which WOULD be a slippery slope.
I’m suggesting that if meat eaters are okay with killing and eating animals, why not the human animal? I probe because the line drawn in the sand is unclear with meat eaters.
Also, humans are animals. This is primary school stuff here.
What separates eating animals from eating people for you?
Right, but what’s inherently wrong with eating your own species? I mean, I know, I think any sentient life shouldn’t be killed for my pleasure. But with your logic that some species are okay to kill and eat, and others aren’t, I’m wanting to know why those others aren’t.
Ignoring “societal norms”, as they’ve been used to commit genocide, slavery, and all manner of atrocities - why is cannibalism logically, in your opinion, bad?
Because regardless of what species does it, cannibalism inevitably causes problems due to prions, diseases, and such. Even if the most dangerous parts (Central nervous system) are avoided, there are still problems (just more slowly).
Well, it doesn’t cause prion diseases, it just spreads them. It’s only transmissible by consumption of conspecifics (or often, as in mad cow disease, by eating similar species - when farmers were feeding cows dead chickens and cows).
So you’re saying the only thing stopping you from eating factory farmed human meat is the risk to your own safety?
So… If there were no risk of disease, you would consider cannibalism and “normal meat eating” to be basically equitable, and equally justifiable? If not, why not?
Sorry I’m just having a hard time getting some solid admissions here, nobody wants to just straight up answer.
As a human, yes I consider a human life to be more valuable than the life of a member of another species. Is that biased? Probably, but if that biased didn’t exist, neither would humans.
My concern with eating dogs and cats (which I have) is how they were fed. There isn’t a lot of health safety concern with those kinds of underground meat sources can sometimes feed dead livestock back to the populace and that can cause all numbers of prion and parasitic concerns.
I mean, people hardly ever eat carnivores. Even pigs, which are omnivores, are 90% of the time herbivores. I don’t even eat meat, but this argument never made sense to me. Yes, there are countries where people eat dogs, but that doesn’t mean dogs and cats are equivalent to cattle. You can make an argument for horses though.
The argument works for a Western audience that are okay with killing and eat some animals, but find it abhorrent to eat others. Most people don’t like the idea of dogs in pain, and if we did rear dogs like we do pigs, there would be huge public outcry.
And sure, you get Redditors and Lemmy-ites who go “Oh ho i’d eat dog!”, but they mean they’d try the meat once at a market, to maintain moral consistency. The truth is they’d be just as horrified if they saw dogs yelping in factory farmed cages, like we treat chickens.
But there’s no reason to treat some animals one way, some another. They all feel pain, they all feel misery, they all call for their children once they’ve been culled. It’s objectively immoral to eat meat when not for necessity.
Edit: sorry that was a bit snarky. I don’t think you’re completely off the mark but I would think an animal needs at least a nervous system to experience pain, so there are categories to consider and it may be morally virtuous to abstain from eating some animals but not necessarily immoral, and we should be careful to anthropomorphize other animal emotional states.
So fish have nociceptors, and a brain that connects to them, and they avoid painful stimuli. They have analgesic response systems in their brain to dull painful stimuli. Even the most cautious interpetation of misery would include pain, so I would not kill and eat it. Fish display sentience, therefore it is immoral to kill them for pleasure.
Maybe I’m off on this but suffering/misery would include pain + the emotional state of unhappiness or we would just use pain for both? Avoiding painful stimuli doesn’t tell me about their emotional state or cognitive awareness of the pain, just an awareness of the stimuli.
No serious study suggests plants feel pain. They do not have a brain or central nervous system. At most, they respond to stimuli.
Many more plants “die” for animal feeding than with a vegan diet.
If you’re worried about grass pain, you should focus more on the animals that DO have nociceptors, central nervous systems and brains, and the ability to feel fear that you subject them too, purely for taste preference.
I’ve read some studies that talk about how cabbages in a patch release a warning scent when one of them is being harvested. The scent actually propagates, and even non harvested cabbages release the scent further down the patch to warn other cabbages.
Imagine how amazing you would feel as a child to have a possession of yours put on display at a museum. Even if it was temporary, you’d remember that for the rest of your days.
I was part of a summer camp that was run in conjunction with the local university where we got to design a museum exhibit and put it on at the university’s museum dedicated to anthropology and culture. We got to choose the theme of the exhibit (which didn’t have to fit the museum) and chose the local fossils since they were easy to find in any creek and we all loved going out and hunting them. I remember my part of the exhibit was crinoids, and I wrote the title card and designed the display- the crinoids fossils were in some sand. I don’t remember much else because we’re talking almost 40 years ago. But I remember how awesome it was to be in the museum and see people looking at my display.
I learned how to paint minis in the basement of a hobby shop, basically as small town daycare while my mom worked on the floor above. My very first mini got put on display in that basement next to the work by the person who taught me. It was hilariously out of place. After college I was visiting again, like 10+ years later, it was still there proudly collecting dust. The guy who taught me had apparently recently died and they were going to put a bunch of the stuff in storage since the owner was having an emotionally difficult time seeing it all there. I managed to recover my mini just to be sure it didn’t get lost with everything. Now I have it proudly displayed in my room. It’s seen a lot of adventures
try using windows on a machine that old if you want to know the true meaning of slow. it will always be updating something meaningless like edge in the background on top of it.
I still have my old laptop from college for whenever my PC is dead and I need a backup device. It’s from 2008 and still has an HDD. There’s Windows 7 installed and last time i booted it up the boot up time said 316 seconds. It’s ridiculous.
ZRAM is also not about RAM management. I am talking about the oomd
If on Windows a process is using extremely much resources, mostly you still can open a GUI task manager amd kill it. On KDE if this happens, I am lucky if I can exit to a TTY
Your Skylake laptop from 2015 boots faster than my Zen 4 desktop from 2022 (with a PCIe Gen 4 NVME SSD!)
This thing takes 25 seconds just to POST. The fucked up thing is that it used to be even worse, but has slowly been improving with BIOS updates. The good news is that once it’s up and running, this machine is ready to fuck. Programs open the second I click the icon and loading screens don’t exist in games anymore. But it’s still disappointing that AMD can’t figure out how to make their shit boot faster.
Edit I misread that, I thought you had a Zenbook not the AMD desktop lol 🙈
That’s actually insane because mine is also an Asus Zenbook. It’s the UX501 that I got at a liquidation sale, and I refuse to give this thing up because they really don’t make them like this anymore.
I’ll probably eventually move onto a Framework once this thing gives up the ghost, but I’m hoping for at least a few more years of use.
It’s called memory training. Disabling it will hurt either stability, performance, or both. I really wouldn’t bother. Just use sleep mode if time is of the essence. Don’t unplug your machine from the wall; if it remains powered a lot of systems will skip the training.
You can enable “Memory Context Restore” in the BIOS. There are also “DDR5 training options” you can mess with if you know what you’re doing.
But like I said to the other person, the best way to speed up POST times is to simply keep your BIOS up to date. That alone has sped up my PC way more than any setting you can change.
Yeah I already did that but it’s actually faster now to leave the memory training bypass shit off. (And like you said, bypassing memory training can lead to instability.) But when this motherboard first launched it actually did help speed up POST times.
I’m just glad that AMD is committed to working with motherboard manufacturers to keep the BIOS updates coming. This is my first AMD machine; I’m used to getting just one update over the course of my machine’s lifespan—if even that—with the various Intel rigs I’ve built over the years.
Have they fixed that 100% disk usage bug in Windows yet? Seems to disproportionately affect laptops with magnetic disk’s and just chokes the whole system making it unusable
Done! You should see about 4 reports in !linux . Take a peek and see what that looks like from whatever client(s) you normally use. Note that you’re not always obligated to take action on things that are reported. You know where the reports come from and have a good idea of how reliable they are.
We have a completely optional moderator discord here discord.gg/wKg6bhkM if you’re interested.
Thanks for helping out. If you have questions or need help at any point, let us know. You can PM me, there’s the discord, or there’s the [email protected] email that goes to the instance admins.
its not a bug, its a feature. its updates, telemetry and other stuff they want you to use like edge. you can see it for yourself on the task manager.
you can use some feature disabler apps to cut out a lot of this crap but theres only so much you can do on windows. updates are crazy heavy for what they are.
it is however a substantial improvement, they undo the mods on update and you will have to play little a cat and mouse game to keep it good.
windows can be improved but linux is the permanent solution for weaker hardware if you can use it.
I love having it idle at 100% for 30 mins, fan at max, just to update some windows nonsense. Updating 500 packages on linux is done in 5 mins including the download. Like how do you even manage to make the update process THAT bad if not on purpose? I am baffled by that. It’s a thinkpad dual core i7 with an SSD. It only runs Debian now thankfully.
right? i literally can’t fathom it and i’m not even counting all the crap 3rd parties insist in adding as always running system services for some damn reason. linux was a godsend to switch to.
Attention theft is an existing term, though it’s used to describe bad practices by marketers. I suppose it’s bad that the term has had to come into existence, but it is good that it exists as a way to talk about bad practices more easily.
(not) fun fact: In game design there exists analogical term for “making player addicted” called “dark patterns”. Mostly used by live service and mobile games
Some insurance group put up a billboard on the route I use to go to work telling us how we all suffer from insurance fraud.
Each and every time I went past it I would try to imagine how much I would have to hate a person in order to side with the enemy against them. No saint and I never pretended to be one but I still wouldn’t do that.
Source (they put the actual torture and rape at paragraph 9999 after all the israeli propaganda)
The interrogators accused him of Hamas membership and showed him photographs of militants to see if he could identify them. They also asked him about the whereabouts of hostages, as well as a senior Hamas leader who lived near Mr. Bakr’s family home. When Mr. Bakr denied any connection to the group or knowledge of the pictured men, he was beaten repeatedly, he said.
Mr. al-Hamlawi, the senior nurse, said a female officer had ordered two soldiers to lift him up and press his rectum against a metal stick that was fixed to the ground. Mr. al-Hamlawi said the stick penetrated his rectum for roughly five seconds, causing it to bleed and leaving him with “unbearable pain.”
A leaked draft of the UNRWA report detailed an interview that gave a similar account. It cited a 41-year-old detainee who said that interrogators “made me sit on something like a hot metal stick and it felt like fire,” and also said that another detainee “died after they put the electric stick up” his anus.
Mr. al-Hamlawi recalled being forced to sit in a chair wired with electricity. He said he was shocked so often that, after initially urinating uncontrollably, he then stopped urinating for several days. Mr. al-Hamlawi said he, too, had been forced to wear nothing but a diaper, to stop him from soiling the floor.
Hey can you cw the pic and edit the title for sa content?
I think I people should know about this story and I’m not asking so that people can avoid the shock of it, but so that people who have been assaulted can avoid being re-exposed to their experiences.
I am not entirely sure how to put content warnings in the title, i added the words CW at the front is that how it is supposed to be done?
It is difficult to post the reality for Palestinians without people experiencing shock or depression from it. However it needs to be posted to raise awareness to the issue.
I think you blur the picture if you got one and put a more general description in the title so people can’t just get blam cammed with “rape with a foriegn object” while they’re baby huey scrolling along.
I agree that people need to be shocked by this stuff. It’s tough balance between having a safe space and spongebob pointing out the window at a huge pile of atrocities.
Thanks for doing your best instead of pushing back. The first time someone asked me to cw something I was uhh, much more combative.
I feel like the issue is that people expect a “Photoshop killer” to be Photoshop verbatim. Instead of focusing on making a good tool, people just constantly compare it to the commercial pack leader.
Most of the complaints I hear about GIMP are just “x isn’t like Photoshop”. I would take the complaints more seriously if any of the people voicing them could actually articulate what should be improved.
I mean, there’s something to be said about adhering to an industry standard. Of course no project has to do so if they don’t want to, but people trying to get on with their work don’t want to spend a bunch of time relearning everything. I think Blender really thrived when they loosened up a little on their ideas of what a workflow should be and gave people industry standard options out of the gate.
Whether we like it or not, GIMP isn’t going to be most people’s first experience with image manipulation. Whether they had a free PS license through school/work, had a subscription at some point, or once got it through ahem alternative means, people will be coming into GIMP with certain expectation of what the workflow should look like and will get frustrated pretty quickly.
That’s fair, but it doesn’t answer any of the questions about what should be improved. “Industry standards” is a vacuous term when the standard is defined by a singular piece of software made by one company.
Sure, GIMP isn’t Photoshop, and those familiar with Photoshop will have to re-learn things to use it. But what exactly needs to be changed? The developers have no chance of improving the program if the feedback is this generic.
this doesn’t even bring in the question of IP and rights to software itself. If GIMP implements an option perfect workflow of photoshop, does that mean adobe can just sue GIMP now? Because they’re basically the same software.
There was a very distinct switch between ~2.7 to ~3.0 where they actually started listening to the users. If you look up the release posts on social media, you can see the community talking about it at that time. Many of them touch on the exact issue of GIMP failing where Blender succeeded.
Blender’s UI has seen incredible changes in the past several years. To the point it has become exceptional today. For a program that accomplishes so much (3d modeling, rendering, compositing, video editing) it manages to keep everything very intuitive and easy to use. Gimp --a fucking image editor-- is like trying to solve quantum entanglement theory.
lemmy.world
Top