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RagingSnarkasm ,

At this point, I think they are actively trying to drive us away.

BrianTheeBiscuiteer ,

The Elon Musk Maneuver.

mp3 ,
@mp3@lemmy.ca avatar

It’s like the Picard Maneuver, but where you just warp straight in front of your enemy while simultaneously shitting yourself.

normalexit ,

They will certainly succeed at driving some people away. I was a lifetime Windows user and I currently don’t have it installed on any of my machines now. I think the average Joe is blissfully unaware other than the occasional dialog about a new feature coming their way.

I think they are going to lose more of the hardcore tech community with decisions like these, but I don’t know that they care.

Glowstick , (edited )

In most situations i agree with you, but i think when it comes to the purchase of techie things (like which computers and OS a company should use) then the opinion of techies matters. Their opinion may not matter as much as it should, but in aggregate over time it can cause large changes in purchasing decisions

Demdaru ,

I hate being bothered. Linux, while overall almost botherless, still looses to windows.

But damn me, when Win 10 loses support, I am jumping to nobara. Win 11 seems to be win 10 with every addon being something I harbor dislike for.

PhreakyByNature ,

I do like the convenience of Windows and I’m still on W10, when it loses support I’ll be switching to Linux too.

Kroxx ,

Linux, while overall almost botherless, still looses to windows.

Been using mint for around 2 months and I would say this is pretty accurate. Pretty much every game I play works out of the box. Discord however crashes the whole system sometimes and I can’t figure out why. Would still recommend Linux over windows but you will for sure encounter more issues.

lurch ,

but the “hardcore tech community” guys are the IT guys of all companies. so this means a lot of the people who are in IT related meetings and have a say in which OSes to install will now be opposed to Win11. A lot will probably suggest waiting to hopefully be able to skip 11, but some will choose alternatives.

Deceptichum ,
@Deceptichum@quokk.au avatar

News flash, a lot of the hardcore tech community already used Linux and would’ve pushed for it in related meetings.

Using Windows isn’t a sign of advocacy, it’s a sign of legacy. Companies don’t want to swap and change things.

Soup ,

Right but if Windows is now becoming a problem then it’s a start. And so many software developers I know use MacBooks for their job and say that they’re just better for the work. Microsoft is hoping that the fear of change means they can do whatever they want, if they even have any thoughts in their thick heads at all that is, and don’t seem to realize that at some point even the most devoted users will have to face the fact that there are better options.

Fuck Windows, it’s such an ass product that’s only selling point right now that some key products don’t work on anything else simply because the developers of them don’t want to do the work and not because it has some magic sauce that a Mac or Linux machine doesn’t.

DrDickHandler ,

They don’t care and you really don’t matter in the big scope of things.

Gerudo ,

There was a time when they did try to listen. Since 11 was being imagined, it all was downhill. I used to work for them and all messaging changed once 11 was being worked on

doctortofu , (edited )
@doctortofu@reddthat.com avatar

To be honest, they probably are. My pet theory is that they’re trying to do what do many politicians are doing - drive away everyone but the strongest base electorate that will stay with them no matter what they do. And then, the grift starts. I’m reasonably sure sooner rather than later they’ll start charging a subscription fee to use Windows, and people and companies will bend over and pay it…

Reverendender ,

https://sh.itjust.works/pictrs/image/76dd1bff-c60b-4775-be35-51eee8a2af1d.gif

__init__ ,

You get to drink from the fire hose!!!

stoy ,

If it was listed incorrectly as a feature that could be turned on or off and it was a bug, then the bugfix would seem to be making it listed correctly as a feature that can be turned on or off.

stankmut ,

It can still be turned on or off, they are just saying it wasn’t supposed to be on that particular screen.

My guess is that it was there as a temporary way to turn it on and off during development before they had a page in settings.

NeoNachtwaechter ,

Who else has ever invented such a powerful spyware?

Serious question. Because usually Microsoft are not the first ones with anything, it is very likely that there is a predecessor.

Now I am quite disturbed because I don’t know how and where we are being spied on already in such an infamous manner!

MrSoup ,

China?

NeoNachtwaechter ,

Tell me more?

MrSoup ,

youtu.be/watch?v=uReVvICTrCM

yewtu.be/watch?v=uReVvICTrCM

ABCDE ,

Vietnam? They have their own browser (CocCoc) and IM application (Zalo).

stankmut ,

There is a Mac app called Rewind that came out a couple of years ago that does the same thing. There was also an open source thing for Windows. Everyone is desperate to show that they are hip and can do AI. It looks like someone at Microsoft saw a demo of one of those apps and thought that putting it into Windows would let them brag about how much AI Windows can do. They clearly tried to rush it out in time for their Copilot PC marketing push.

The idea is that you can use local LLM models and image scanning to talk to your computer. You could ask it to summarize your day, ask what you were working on last week, or find those articles you vaguely remember reading last year and can’t find anymore. I can almost see the merit, but the security risk is so high.

I wonder if people will eventually stop caring about the security risk of features like this. Those AI girlfriends some people dream about will have access to so much private information. Give this thing a voice and you can market it as a companion who learns the things you like and can talk with you about the things you are reading. Hackers might be able to see literally everything you’ve done on the computer for the last few years, but you’ll get to feel like Iron Man with your own personal Jarvis.

slampisko ,

I think the average Joe doesn’t really understand or care about the security risk of such a feature, because they assume that there are competent people at the company who have considered the security risk and took sufficient steps to address it. It’s not by accident that there’s a meme about some guy having a smart fridge and watch and everything, and his friend the IT expert, who doesn’t have a single piece of smart tech and keeps a gun in the kitchen in case the toaster makes a wrong move…

__init__ ,

This is where we say switch to Linux, right?

1984 OP ,
@1984@lemmy.today avatar

Yeah but I think most of us have already… We are not many enough to matter though. Microsoft and Google will continue to do what they want with 99% of users.

TommySoda ,

If they keep going at this pace, even the average person will be sick of it. My company was already considering it (after some input from myself and a couple coworkers) after they first announced recall. We sometimes deal with sensitive information that we can’t share with anyone outside the company. Periodic screenshots, regardless of what Microsoft says they will do, is a huge security risk.

Petter1 ,

It still can be disabled in windows enterprise using a intune policy, at least.

1984 OP ,
@1984@lemmy.today avatar

Yeah this is all my company cared about. They trust that it will be disabled…

CosmoNova , (edited )

The way MS is headed, would it really surprise anyone if a faulty update accidentally re-enables it without telling you and cause a massive shitstorm, though? I‘m not sure how many companies are naive enough to have this sword of Damocles above their machines. Especially with that disastrous anti-hacker resolution by the UN on the way. Sure, there are a lot of companies that just don‘t care nearly as much as they should, but one massive leak with recall involved could be enough for thousands of them to switch.

mjhelto ,

I’ll switch when Windows 10 is no longer supported. Or just before.

canihasaccount ,

Eh, I switched. I switched all of my lab’s computers, too, and my PhD students have remarked a few different times that Linux is pretty cool. It might snowball.

IAmNotACat ,

I don’t think Linux will displace Windows meaningfully any time soon, but I do think people underestimate the fact that most people don’t install their own OSs. They get people like you to do it for them.

I_Has_A_Hat ,

The problem is like that xkcd comic about experts underestimating the common person’s knowledge in their field. Linux is still not user friendly enough for the vast majority of people. Linux users just don’t seem to understand that most people are in the “wtf is a distro?” level of knowledge and would absolutely panic at the mere sight of a terminal.

untorquer ,

True. Most people wouldn’t know how to install windows. They use it because it’s preinstalled and works. It’s a lot of risk for the average user to attempt an install from media even if it’s well guided. There’s also the roadblock of having media for local backup and the migration of personal data to cloud obfuscating the access to the data even further.

It’s hard enough to get professionals to rtfm.

iorale ,

Tell the average user to configure MPV and tell them to look at the documentation every time they ask for help.
See how fast they go back to Windows.

SorryQuick ,

It’s not “linux”’s job to be userfriendly, it’s up to the distro. Look at android, steam deck and chromebooks, three very userfriendly linux distros. Now we just need some billion dollar company to do what google and valve did with those for a desktop and we’re good to go.

IAmNotACat ,

They don’t need to know what a distro is, the same way they don’t know the difference between Windows Enterprise, Professional, LTSC, etc.

If it’s not OEM, people like us are going to be the ones installing it for them anyway.

lepinkainen ,

You guys do know you don’t have to use Windows?

untorquer ,

Enterprise CAD does not play well with wine sadly(im such with fusion). But i locked that local account windows install away on a second hard drive with default boot to Linux.

dogslayeggs ,

You do know that many millions of people are given laptops/desktops for work that have locks that prevent new OS’s from being installed, right?

cmnybo ,

Sure it can, you just uninstall the entire OS and replace it with Linux.

cyberpunk007 ,

Where’s the windows uninstaller located?!

cmnybo ,

The windows uninstaller is in the Linux ISO.

cheddar , (edited )
@cheddar@programming.dev avatar

magnet:?xt=urn:btih:6f1bde857b97b382f8841cdf3a42c530b3f4e34e&dn=archlinux-2024.09.01-x86_64.iso

Just boot this Windows uninstaller.

cyberpunk007 ,

My computer gives this error:

Error - Arch Linux is already installed.

DaddleDew ,

What was it, not even two months ago when they said they “listened” to us and that they wouldn’t go forward with Recall? And we all said they would still roll it in later when the dust had settled? Yup, we were right.

1984 OP ,
@1984@lemmy.today avatar

It happens every time…tech companies are not worried what users think because users don’t care enough to switch to Linux.

Tywele ,

At that point they said that they wouldn’t go forward with Recall in the current state. It was never in question that it would come eventually. The question was in what state?

DarkDarkHouse ,
@DarkDarkHouse@lemmy.sdf.org avatar

Whoops we turned the heat up too quickly and the frogs noticed. Just turn it back down for a bit then begin heating up again, just a little slower this time.

sir_pronoun ,

Just finally switched my gaming PC to Linux mint. It works flawlessly. I can even re-use the steam game files I downloaded on Windows. Never going back.

1984 OP ,
@1984@lemmy.today avatar

Yeah I’ve been gaming exclusively on Linux for many years now, but sure, a few games don’t work. I’m OK with that since almost all actually do work.

TommySoda ,

As soon as support for windows 10 is over I’m out. My new laptop had Windows 11 pre-installed so I switched it to Linux a few days ago after I realized Copilot installed itself without asking me. I’m using my laptop as a test run before I get it on my desktop so I can figure out which distro I wanna use when the day comes.

algorithmae ,

You can probably disable it with a custom install, like Cortana

Tja ,

There’s a lot of talk about switching to Linux (I use Arch, BTW) but for anyone looking for a new computer, macs are going to look real good. Still user friendly, excellent build quality, and Unix core. A Mac mini can be had for about 500 bucks. I’ve got an M2 MacBook Pro from work and I am super happy with it. Limited gaming tho, but I got a steamdeck for that.

1984 OP ,
@1984@lemmy.today avatar

Mac is a lot easier to get started with, so absolutely. The downside is that people get pulled into the ecosystem of apple, with specific chargers, keyboards, adapters… Many of my friends use macs and they also start to buy iPhones and other apple gear.

moormaan ,

My situation exactly, and I’m very happy with it. M2 with its speed and long battery life compensates well for some unconfigurable behaviours in MacOS that I have minor gripes with, and for gaming and general Linux goodness, Steam Deck to the rescue.

floofloof , (edited )

Macs look appealing, but they’re so expensive that I’ve been working with computers for decades but never felt I could afford one. Not a useful one anyway. The power efficiency is attractive but you have to spend so much to get past 8GB RAM and 256GB storage, which is like a PC from 10 years ago. Every time I consider it I end up back with Linux and/or Windows just because of the upfront cost. And because Apple sell to people who are willing to pay high prices, the software, accessories and support for Mac is also more expensive.

Tja ,

I haven’t bought a PC since my X200s ca 2008 so I’m really out of date on hardware prices, but the MacBook is just amazing. For dev / office work even the base one could be enough, swap is so fast you don’t even notice it. I have a 16/512 model and it’s more than enough.

For stationary computing, the Mac mini is awesome, under 1k with the same specs as the MacBook.

sirico ,
@sirico@feddit.uk avatar

I always wonder where the line is for the majority of people, maybe there isn’t one and they know it. You’ve got to hand it to Microsoft nearly 30 years and they still have the majority.

1984 OP ,
@1984@lemmy.today avatar

Doesn’t it say more about the users than Microsoft? Seems to me that people who don’t care about computers will accept anything coming from big tech…

sirico ,
@sirico@feddit.uk avatar

Yeah, I guess it means they know people don’t care, and they can do what they want. What are you going to do, use the scary CLI OS that’s for nerds. Or spend loads of money on a walled garden, no just stay in the cosy middle.

All my windows friends and family just don’t care, computers are a utility, and they won’t learn something as easy as Mint or Bazzite. To them, they still see Linux as it was in the 2000s.

There are whole businesses dedicated to MS, like everything they do is MS. You hire an IT firm, they’ll plonk a load of Dells in your offices and spin up Exchange 2019 where everything bespoke is programmed in C#, despite their being better products because it’s all they know. They spent all that money on MS partnerships.

Microsoft have created a stable ecosystem we didn’t learn in the late 90s or the mid 2000s and we will carry on because at this point it’s effort. Unless you’re Germany…

SexualPolytope , (edited )
@SexualPolytope@lemmy.sdf.org avatar

Right in front of me is a guy editing a >10 page LaTeX file in Overleaf on a 13 inch laptop. The sidebar takes like 1/3rd of the screen. The editor in around 3 inches in width, and he needs to zoom into the PDF preview to read it.

My point in, some people simply don’t care about anything.

illi ,

They don’t relly know better. Windows is familiar, Linux sounds too complicated and techy. Hell, I was thinking the same and I’m reasonably tech savvy. It’s infinitely more friendly than I’d ever expect.

People are afraid of change and unknown. Though ironically Linux might actually be closer to the original Windows experience that Win11 is (speaking from my limited experience with Mint)

RootBeerGuy ,
@RootBeerGuy@discuss.tchncs.de avatar

There is no such thing as a line, it seems to be a long gradient and its about how fast you move on the gradient. If you ever so slightly introduce more and more crap slowly enough, people don’t care as they forget how good they had it much earlier.

sirico ,
@sirico@feddit.uk avatar

Great way of putting it

Wooki ,

Boiling the frog

helenslunch , (edited )
@helenslunch@feddit.nl avatar

Sometimes they boil the frog too quickly, in which case they turn down the heat, wait 3 months, then turn it back up again.

Imagine the backlash if they just went straight from Windows XP to W11. There would be so much whiplash.

Ilovethebomb ,

It’s because Apple products are heinously expensive, and Linux is far more hassle than most people are willing to go to.

There’s also Chrome OS, I have no idea if it’s any good though.

astropenguin5 ,

From my limited experience using it on a shitty Chromebook for school (granted also pretty locked down) and it’s not great. Pretty much only useful for doing web things and the Google ecosystem. I also have no idea whether it’s even possible to get it on anything else.

From a UI perspective I didn’t really like it l, especially as it and other chrome apps got more and more sleek and curvy. I did grow up using a Linux mint laptop though, only getting a dual booted Linux/Windows PC in highschool for some games that needed it as well as running SOLIDWORKS at home. (thanks to my dad for all that lol)

TheGrandNagus , (edited )

This is the thing Lemmy nerds don’t understand:

For most people, using a PC is a chore.

To most people, using a PC is like mopping a floor, or cleaning a car. It’s a boring - even unpleasant - task that you need to do every once in a while. They’d rather be on their phone or their iPad.

When you already view using your PC as a chore, and some Linux user says to you “hey, if you spend a day backing up all your files, creating an install USB, installing Linux, reinstalling your programs (and finding alternatives for those that aren’t available), logging back in to everything, moving your data back across, and relearning how to use a PC, it’ll be worth it in the long run!”, you will just ignore their advice. It’s easier just to say “nah, I only occasionally need my PC when I want to update my CV or write a long email anyway. Thanks for the suggestion though!”

They put up with an hour or two of MS’s bullshit every few months. They don’t like it, but they also don’t care enough about putting effort in so that in future, the chore of using a PC only feels half as bad. At the end of the day, either way, it’s still a chore, and they’d still rather be on their phone/tablet/doing something else entirely.

In the same way, they also don’t care enough about ultimately saving 10 mins every month when they clean their car to go out of their way and do the initial work of claybar-ing, polishing, then waxing it.

I use Linux. I like Linux. But I’m just another Lemmy nerd, not an average PC user.

illi ,

You are correct, but on the other hand it doesn’t hurt to make the average person aware of alternatives.

Can be especially effective when the person buys a new PC and needs to do all the stuff you mention anyway. Yes, it is still a new OS, but honestly, it’s not that different - especially if the person remembers older Windows versions, it might just feel like going to familiar places (I know this is something my wife would really apreciate as she hates the constant changes of how things look). Obviously depends on distro, only have experience with Mint.

I’m saying this from a position of a resonably tech savvy, but not your average tech nerd (at least knowledge wise lol). Sure there are differences under hood but I don’t think the average user would really notice them that much.

floofloof , (edited )

Yes, small things could quickly put ordinary people off Linux with the current state of software. I’m involved in running an organization that needs to submit reports regularly to the government using their online forms. Unfortunately the forms are PDFs that only seem to work in recent versions of Adobe Acrobat Reader. Any other software results in a more or less broken form. I haven’t yet found anything in Linux (even on Wine) that handles these forms properly. So sometimes I have to use Windows.

For me there are still enough benefits to using Linux that I continue with it as my main OS, but for most people they’d quickly get annoyed by obstacles like this. Of course the government shouldn’t be using one company’s proprietary format that only runs on commercial OSes for their forms, but that’s the way it is for now.

namingthingsiseasy ,

I agree, I don’t think they have any limit. Look at how invasive platforms like Facebook are, and yet they’re still massively popular. Mobile operating systems are several times worse than Windows is for privacy and data harvesting, and people clearly don’t care at all. They’ll even happily consent to ever more levels of it - there’s no evidence to suggest that they’ll ever stop.

One of the biggest “mistakes” Microsoft made was not realizing how lucrative data collection could be. Back in the quaint old days of early PC computing, spyware was actually considered a bad thing. When Google came along, that philosophy was flipped on its head. Over the past 15 years, Microsoft has seeing what these spyware vendors are doing and salivating because they know that they are still the kings of computing - they still have total control the PC market and there’s a good chance that it’s not really going anywhere because most people hate change - even though Linux is starting to make inroads in quite a few places.

It would not be surprising if, in a few years, a Windows OS looks like a Google search page, or a cable television channel.

exanime ,

This is the same false analogy people make as to why Americans drive giant trucks to shift blame… it’s not the manufacturers who are pushing these cars to circumvent taxes, it is the users for demanding it.

Very few people actually like these invasive shit Microsoft pulls, but the vast majority either do not know about them, understand them or feel they have another choice. For example, I hate MS, I understand what dog shit this Recall feature is, yet my job will provide a Windows machine with it and I have no choice but to use it.

I am a nerd so at home I do have everything running on Linux. But for the majority of people that would be a unknown option or just an unobtainable one

MigratingtoLemmy ,

I don’t give a shit about what work gives me saying all I’m doing is work on that thing. Now what I’m really afraid of is Microsoft pulling data from the sensors on the device when I’m working from home with it. I need too think of a way to deal with it (I do not have a separate room for work)

Blackmist ,

https://feddit.uk/pictrs/image/083c761d-2674-49f2-955a-1858e2360a18.webp

If you buy a PC it has Windows on it. The majority of people are not cocking about formatting a USB stick and fiddling with the BIOS to put Linux on it. They aren’t thinking about operating systems at all, and if you need specific software for work, chances are it isn’t going to run on anything other than Windows. If you don’t need it for work, you’ve probably just got a tablet by now and store all your photos on Facebook.

Cheskaz , (edited )

That comic really reminds me of trying to degoogle and FOSSify my computer as a complete novice. Multiple, extremely frustrating times, I’ve wanted to install something but I genuinely have not been able to understand the installation instructions. I also don’t know enough to know what the right search terms are to find out what I’m meant to do.

I’m still trying but it’s fucking demoralising.

Trainguyrom ,

If you buy a PC it has Windows on it. The majority of people are not cocking about formatting a USB stick and fiddling with the BIOS to put Linux on it.

And increasingly the majority of people don’t even bother to keep a PC anymore and just use their phone

Blackmist , (edited )

Exactly. We used to have a massive chain of shops called PC World, and that eventually became Currys/PC World, and is now just Currys.

The age of computers came and went, and people still need washing machines and TVs. They still sell laptops I think, but if you want anything from their range of “gaming” PCs, they have to order it in, usually from one of the many stores online that will build them for you.

Windows already lost. It lost to Android.

xelar ,

Switching to Linux would be difficult, when I’m the only one in team willing to change.

People feel comfy as it is and don’t feel a need to change. They say it requires “extra work”.

Valmond ,

And still they do all that extra work repeatedly when windows changes or breaks something. Guess it’s just not annoying enough each time…

pHr34kY ,

Even if you can’t cleanly remove it, you can probably delete a few system files and break it. It’s not like the whole thing will be baked into kernel32.dll.

arandomthought ,

Not yet…

SynopsisTantilize ,

Cortana and IE break the OS if you fuck with the registry hard enough. When I deploy W11 to my building I wonder how much GP is gonna need to be setup to fix this bullshit

octopus_ink ,

Good point. Sounds like the kind of company I want to do business with. /s

tabular ,
@tabular@lemmy.world avatar

Sometimes you have to fight with the OS to make it work but that should be due to a bug (or my incompetence in using it). When it’s not working because it’s actually working on someone else’s behalf you can probably delete the whole fucking thing mate.

NutWrench ,
@NutWrench@lemmy.world avatar

I’m actually enjoying the Linux learning curve because I know it’s not working against my interests.

On the other hand, every time I’ve had to go “under the hood” with Windows (Registry settings, config files) it’s been to prevent Microsoft from doing something sh*tty to me.

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