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EmasXP ,

TIL that Mono is a Microsoft project. I always thought it was an open source reverse engineered .NET

NegativeInf ,

It was only a Microsoft project the moment they bought Xamarin.

Dremor ,
@Dremor@lemmy.world avatar

It was at first, then they became a for profit organization, Xamarin, who was bought by Microsoft.

TootSweet ,

Microsoft gives the Wine team infectious mononucleosis. Got it.

But seriously, Microsoft is nobody’s friend and shouldn’t be trusted.

dan1101 ,

In an organization as large as MS there have to be a few good guys. Just don’t let the corporate leadership hear about it.

Thorry84 ,

I know a lot of folk that work at MS or have worked there, they are all very good people. They are highly motivated professionals that are top in their field. MS is a rich company and they recruit the best they can. However those are not the people making any kind of decisions. And it’s a cut throat company, if the budget gets cut, you are out on your ass. At least in most of the world, where strong employee protection isn’t a thing.

Don’t get me wrong, MS has a lot of bad apples just like any other company. Useless managers who say dumb shit and take praise for other peoples work. A leadership that doesn’t care about anything except their bonuses and the bottom line. But at least as far as the engineers go, there’s plenty of really good folk.

People also seem to forget how huge MS actually is. And a lot of the time the different branches within the company are as far away from each other as can be. Even within the same branch one can only talk to so many people.

funn ,

What’s the twist? There must be some reason.

lily33 , (edited )

I guess it’s simply the framing: It was a not very actively maintained open source project. So they’ve decided to turn it over to a new maintainer. Calling that ‘donation’ is a bit pushing it

twinnie ,

Most of the time a company does something like this they would just let it die. It’s good that Microsoft have at least made the effort to hand it over to a team who’s willing to keep it going.

ChaoticNeutralCzech ,

…Like MS-DOS getting open sourced. It’s pretty much worthless unless you need to use some really old device.

lily33 ,

It’s certainly good, I’m not arguing that. My point is, if the wine team is interested, they can fork the unmaintained project, and work on that. Eventually, people will switch over to the active fork. What Microsoft is doing, is helping the process along, and making it easier. So it’s good, and helpful - but not really a “donation” to winehq.

astro_ray ,

Actually, wine used to maintain a fork.

cyborganism ,

Cost cutting.

MajinBlayze ,

Probably simply that they are done with it (mono specifically, and possibly .net framework in the long run)

kevindqc ,

I would be extremely surprised if they are planning to abandon .NET

takeda , (edited )

With ICAAN introduction of new gTLDs now they can drop .NET and pick up .ONLINE

mannycalavera ,
@mannycalavera@feddit.uk avatar

Underrated comment.

sleep_deprived ,

Well they said .NET Framework, and I also wouldn’t be surprised if they more or less wrapped that up - .NET Framework specifically means the old implementation of the CLR, and it’s been pretty much superseded by an implementation just called .NET, formerly known as .NET Core (definitely not confusing at all, thanks Microsoft). .NET Framework was only written for Windows, hence the need for Mono/Xamarin on other platforms. In contrast, .NET is cross-platform by default.

woelkchen ,
@woelkchen@lemmy.world avatar

What’s the twist? There must be some reason.

.NET runs natively on Linux since quite some time. Honestly, I don’t get what Mono is even good for these days. Maybe reverse engineering old .NET versions.

NekkoDroid ,
@NekkoDroid@programming.dev avatar

IIRC Mono was mostly used for WASM as it was optimized for smaller builds than the full fat CoreCLR (talking about .NET non-Framework Mono)

chaospatterns ,

.net core is the future but Mono is still important for running legacy .net framework applications like ones that use WinForms or WPF. That’s pretty much it. Anything new should go straight to .net core.

Mihies ,

Hm, WinForms and WPF with Wine you mean? Otherwise makes not much sense. Was WPF ever run in this combination!

chaospatterns ,

Ah yeah. Mono didn’t support WPF, but Mono did support running WinForms apps natively on Linux without using Wine.

lemann ,

.NET runs natively on Linux

Only .NET Core sadly

When I moved my personal laptop to Linux I needed WINE to run some source-available .NET apps that were written targeting the Windows-only .NET Framework

pycorax ,

All the new stuff is now on .NET Core/5.0 and up at least.

riskable ,
@riskable@programming.dev avatar

They officially don’t care about running .NET applications on Linux anymore. They never really did before but so few people fell for that trap Microsoft is finally ready to turn in the towel

Mihies ,

Huh, you are very much mistaken. Since .NET they have official and vast support for running on Linux and MacOS. Before they didn’t and hence Mono/Xamarin.

DaddleDew ,

That’s extremely uncharacteristic. Are they trying to prepare for an antitrust probe?

thesmokingman ,

Microsoft has had dotnet-core for awhile. If you are running production dotnet loads (eg a C# app), you’ve probably been using those Linux containers for awhile. This doesn’t surprise me; they usually aren’t interested in maintaining an open version of software they have more restrictive licenses for. Enterprises will continue to use dotnet-core and Microsoft will probably do something to shoot mono in the foot in a few years.

Mihies ,

Actually everybody will use .NET and not Mono if possible, as it’s officially supported and a successor.

thesmokingman ,

The reason to use mono over dotnet is political. This is stirring up some really old shit; I expect a continuation of that shit now. Mono is currently MIT as is dotnet core. Who knows what direction each project will go now? MS has a history of fucking with licenses and Wine uses copyleft setups.

obbeel ,

Interesting article. Gives me some light on what Microsoft wants with open source code.

Omega_Jimes ,

I can’t help but think that Microsoft has decided to proceed in some way that will break compatibility, so they’re done with Mono now.

I know it’s skeptical, but I just have no faith in that company to act in good faith with anything.

woelkchen ,
@woelkchen@lemmy.world avatar

proceed in some way that will break compatibility

That’s what new major versions are for.

paf0 ,

dotnet is now a multiplatform framework itself. Do they still need mono?

Imgonnatrythis ,

As much as it is beloved, I don’t think windows sees Linux / wine as any kind of substantial threat.

kautau ,

I think they do in the enterprise hosting / software dev world, which is the reason for so much effort being poured into WSL, but for standard client applications or the “average user” switching to Linux I agree

Lettuceeatlettuce ,
@Lettuceeatlettuce@lemmy.ml avatar

Yeah, they want to be able to get people totally off Linux as a root OS.

By creating WSL, they now can say, "Oh, you like to develop for/on Linux? Well good news, Windows has Linux built in! Just come on over to Windows and you can use WSL and Linux on Azure for all your Linux needs!

Zink ,

And WSL is pretty good according to one of the other guys in my department that’s been using it.

The problem for Microsoft is that my entire user experience is better when I boot straight into Linux and use all their software (except vscode) in browser tabs.

vin ,

Very true because the relationship they have with laptop manufacturers will ensure windows domination

n3cr0 ,

.Net sucks, compared to mono. The compiler is slower, filesize after optimization is still higher and the character set in cli is far more limited when I compile an app with .Net.

ripcord ,
@ripcord@lemmy.world avatar

Are those the most important factors for a framework? Or in the top 5?

ilmagico ,

… and execution speed is faster. And they’re both open source. I mean, good thing we have choices, right?

CaptDust ,

Source? I’d like to see some modern numbers about those compile times. Hasn’t been my experience at all.

extremeboredom ,

Extend, Embrace, Extinguish?

mlg ,
@mlg@lemmy.world avatar

Discard, De-license, Delete

MoonlightFox ,

I am no Microsoft fanboy, but I get the impression people are a bit overly skeptical here.

I think this is fairly obvious. They have no further use for it, they can either let it rot or they can do the tiniest bit of effort and get some positive PR. It might also just be as simple as an initiative from some employees.

kautau ,

Yup, what they needed from Xamarin was absorbed into .NET and now that have MAUI for cross platform stuff, it was either sunset mono or give it to someone else

auzy ,

Jeezus. Microsoft can’t do anything without people talking crap about them 😂

Wooki ,

It’s almost like they have a terrible track history and hold the gold medal for antitrust and enshitification.

Croquette ,

No corpos does something for the good of the people. It just so happen that this particular thing does.

Behind every move, there is a price tag attached to it.

By doing that, Microsoft is trying to get good PR.

auzy ,

Do you think they’re going to ask for this one back? 😂

Whatever it is, it benefits the community.

What price tag do you think is attached to this one?

Things can be beneficial to both parties… Not everything corporations do need to screw someone else 😂

BarbecueCowboy ,

You’re not wrong, but if we want companies to keep doing things for good PR, we need to reward them for it.

They’re basically giant badly trained dogs that happen to control every aspect of our lives.

InternetUser2012 ,

Because they’re crap. Pretty obvious right?

CynicusRex ,
@CynicusRex@slrpnk.net avatar

If someone evades billions in taxes but one day donates 50 dollars it doesn’t absolve their wrongdoings whatsoever. This is just an attempt at trying to improve their image.

sep ,

People have experience.

gofsckyourself ,

FYI - the owner of this site, gamingonlinux, was a mod on the !linux_gaming community until they were caught abusing their moderator powers. Then they deleted their account and complained on mastodon that it’s stupid design that mod logs are public.

myersguy ,

Do you have any sources for this?

gofsckyourself ,

https://lemmy.world/pictrs/image/3ed4e565-5730-4518-88f5-d62b5587d490.png

https://lemmy.world/pictrs/image/b69806f1-4ced-4e8c-a9dd-3f1e8d8979e9.png

https://lemmy.world/pictrs/image/53d0e77c-6d5b-48c2-91ed-c0286684b1e8.png

Deleted comment:
https://lemmy.world/pictrs/image/d95d6921-cfc7-4415-8597-89cacb2b4570.png

I called them out for not following their own community rules:

Please be nice to other members. Anyone not being nice will be banned. Keep it fun, respectful and just be awesome to each other.

and they deleted their account.

myersguy ,

Thanks! Not quite as wild as I was expecting (kind of surprised this was enough to push them to delete their account)

gofsckyourself ,

Mod abuse is mod abuse, regardless of the level. They clearly felt embarrassed for needlessly being mean and getting caught for it after trying to hide the fact.

Then they tried to excuse it on their mastodon.

If they’re willing to go through all that for something so minor, they would absolutely be willing to do the same to hide worse behavior.

Zess ,

Not gonna lie he was right about the shuts thing. It’s not a common phrasing but totally legit and you did seem kinda dickish when you pointed it out.

gofsckyourself ,

Pointing something out is not inherently being a dick. It did not warrant the response, particularly a response that clearly breaks the rules of the community they were trusted with the responsibility to manage.

Zess ,

It was snarky. Some people interpret it as rudeness. He’s still a shithead for sure.

MonkeyDatabase , (edited )

What was wrong with them removing your comment? You were being annoying 🤷‍♂️

Their response seemed perfectly measured to someone being needlessly pedantic.

Edit: And also Shuts down? Did you miss the ‘down’? Was the title edited after the fact? What does the rest of that modlog say? The screenshot is cropped.

My perspective is you were being annoying, got downvoted/called out, feigned shock, got your comments removed, and now you’re on a bitter smear campaign.

This is the weakest accusation of mod abuse I’ve seen. Good grief.

gofsckyourself , (edited )

“Annoying” is subjective, and there is no rule against being perceived as being “annoying” in the community rules.

The only rule is to be respectful, which they did not follow at all, then tried to hide it.

Response to edit: yes, it was edited after it was brought up. The modlog is public, there’s no need for me to try to hide anything like they tried to do. If you’re going to try to give me shit for that, why do they get a free pass?

MonkeyDatabase ,

Nothing they did appears to have negatively altered the quality of the comments or discussion.

Respect is also subjective. Your initial post seemed to be mocking and disrespectful for no apparent reason. I’d argue the comment section is more respectful with your remarks gone.

Objectively, it appears they were right to delete their account. You’re stalking posts mentioning their site and complaining about this nothing burger.

I would also distance myself from pedantic harrassers and focus on literally anything else productive if I were them.

gofsckyourself ,

Are you Liam in disguise or something? Why are you trying to make up shit like I’m “stalking” posts mentioning their site? I’m a user of Lemmy just the same as anyone else and when I see posts that bring up this toxic person’s site, I can easily help inform people of their gross manipulative behavior.

MonkeyDatabase ,

There isn’t even some grand “toxic” or “manipulative” coverup. The mod deleted the whole interaction because it was pointless and rude from both of you. It added nothing.

The jannie took out the trash and you’re still harrassing them about the subjectivity of annoyance and respect. Y’know who makes that subjective choice? The mods.

I have no ties to this, but I am in opposition to this neat little narrative you appear to be creating tossing out buzzwords like toxic, gross, manipulative without evidence to back it up.

gofsckyourself ,

I’ve provided plenty of evidence, and there is more to be found if you feel like you need it. Do you really expect me to provide an exhausting dissertation on every single detail of the situation? I provided just enough to back up my claims. If you feel you need more, that’s on you and it’s available for you to find. That does not warrant your baseless accusations.

MonkeyDatabase ,

baseless…sure… you haven’t been buthurt for months or anything… copypasting your narrative… oh… wait

myersguy ,

The “down” was definitely edited after the fact.

MonkeyDatabase ,

You’re definitely right. But without any sort of context, just the screengrab with the title corrected, it makes OPs rant seem even more pointless.

It could have been one word if they were genuinely confused: “…Shuts?”

Or if they were smart enough to realize it was an error:

“There’s a word missing…”

lvxferre ,
@lvxferre@mander.xyz avatar

Yes, their comment was extremely annoying, both in tone (whining) and content (TL;DR: “pls spoonfeed me basic reading comprehension”). If the mod simply removed the comment, or issued an official warning, it would be 100% warranted.

However, what the non-mod user is saying ITT about moderator abuse is still spot on. The mod in question answered to the whining in tone, tried to cover their own arse with content removal, and then went to whine in Mastodon about the events, or the fact that there’s transparency functionality in Lemmy (the mod log) against the exact same behaviour that they showed there.

So it’s a case where both sides were wrong but given their relative positions the mod being wrong is a bigger deal.

gofsckyourself ,

Yes, their comment was extremely annoying, both in tone (whining) and content (TL;DR: “pls spoonfeed me basic reading comprehension”). If the guy simply removed the comment, or issued an official warning, it would be 100% warranted.

It’s your right to have an opinion on whether or not you think I was annoying. However, the rest of that is just wrong and needlessly rude. My comment was only to point out how many different ways the title could be interpreted without being explicit in what happened. There is no need to be so rude with your wild assumption. I just found the title to be mildly frustrating due to being vague because of the missing word, and I thought I would express that. Does that warrant moderation action? No. It breaks no rules and there was no intent to be disrespectful, nor is there any real tangible proof of any disrespectful intent.

MonkeyDatabase ,

I agree with you, but what does a moderator do once they engage with the user other than remove the whole interaction? They deleted the whole thread, not just their opposition.

Seems like the the whining on mastadon about transparency was more because this guy is following them around harrassing them via public modlog screenshots, when on any other forum it wouldn’t even matter… unless it actually mattered.

In this situation, my view is OP made a mess, pissed jannie added to the mess, OP feigned shock, pissed jannie thought better and cleaned the mess up.

Yet OP here is still trying to stir the pot like the mod was silencing their opinion or something. It was a worthless comment.

gofsckyourself ,

Seems like the the whining on mastadon about transparency was more because this guy is following them around harrassing them via public modlog screenshots

Baseless accusation. Got any proof?

Keineanung ,

Yep, they had proof.

orgrinrt ,

I’m boosting this and the screenshots too, but just thought I’d point out for quick scrollers that it does not seem as dramatic as this comment initially lets you believe.

I mean it’s awkward, but just seems more like your usual social awkwardness/incompetence than malicious behavior as such.

gofsckyourself ,

I agree that the main interaction was mild, but if they were willing to go this far to try to hide this, then that shows how low the bar is for them to try to manipulate things to their favor and liking with the trust that was given them as a moderator.

JTskulk ,

Fuck that guy.

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