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dlpkl ,

It’s textbook genocide. They’ve seen they can get away with anything under the guise of war, so why not just solve all their issues and make sure no one’s alive to return to their homes?

Illuminostro ,

What was the old sarcastic quip from Vietnam vets?

“Kill 'em all, let God sort 'em out.”

PM_ME_FEET_PICS ,

Charlie can’t surf.

Aceticon ,

The origin of that (specifically “Kill Them All and Let God Sort It Out”) is way older than that, back all the way to the 13th century and the Cruzades.

I vaguelly remembered it being from a source older than that so I went and looked it up.

SwampYankee ,

under the guise of war

There’s no guise. This is the way war has been prosecuted for millennia. The Geneva Convention, UNHRC, etc. are blips. War is genocide and always has been. Only in the late modern to post-modern era has war been something other than the complete annihilation of your enemies and their culture, including all the infanticide and rape that implies. If you’re, for instance, the US prosecuting a war for nebulous geopolitical reasons, then you can slap up a veneer of rules and conduct. If it’s a war of territorial expansion, on the other hand, you’d better be prepared to do what it takes to stamp out any trace of the people who originally lived there, or at least leave those who remain so broken and disempowered that they’ll never pose a threat.

Expect more like Ukraine & Palestine as the US’s grip on hegemony slips, and as we continue to slowly forget the lessons of the World Wars.

Maggoty ,

Not quite true. While there were many wars of cultural genocide, (culture is a great control tool), wars of physical genocide were largely reserved for religious wars and punishment wars. Not gonna pay that tithe or surrender the second you see us? Congratulations, you’re an example. Espouse a different religious truth? You’re a threat that must be made an example.

For the most part they understood the value of human capital and didn’t want to destroy it if they didn’t have to.

assassin_aragorn ,

I think Ukraine has reestablished American hegemony. It’s showcased how powerful it is to have American support, and galvanized NATO once more.

I honestly don’t think you can tie Palestine into this. This conflict has never been indicative of any global influence. This is where global influence does nothing in the face of intense hatred.

ferralcat ,

This is not true. There are hundreds of cultures around today who were conquered and just left to live until their conquerors eventually moved out. The Jews themselves have literally been conquered a dozen times.

dx1 ,

I have one of Mahmoud Darwish’s books right here, goes into pretty significant detail about Israel’s attempts to stamp out Palestinian culture in the earliest years:

blogs.transparent.com/…/write-down-i-am-an-arab/

wrmea.org/…/id-card-by-mahmoud-darwish-a-translat…

As the book details, he wrote this and then performed it on a stage in Israel, to their outrage, I think it said around 1958.

assassin_aragorn ,

I admit, I’ve been skeptical of this for a while because I couldn’t think of a reason why they’d want to do this.

And I realized today. There doesn’t have to be some grand reason. Killing them all ensures Hamas is killed too. They’ll destroy Palestine because it’s easier and safer for them to indiscriminately bomb the place. That’s reason enough. :/

ferralcat ,

But it won’t kill hamas. It’ll just breed more of them living in all the countries surrounding Israel.

Wakmrow ,

Well they’re fascist, I’m not sure why you expect them to be consistent or logical

NOT_RICK ,
@NOT_RICK@lemmy.world avatar

We’re doing everything we can, you know, other than not dropping bombs directly on refugees

Rapidcreek ,

Jabalya was established in 1948. It’s not a refugee camp and hasn’t been in 50 years. Don’t buy into their narrative.

blaine ,

deleted_by_author

    •
    Rapidcreek ,

    Fine but calling it a refugee camp gives westerners visions of tents. It is not that.

    Flyswat ,

    Oh, not tents? Go ahead you can bomb then!

    blaine ,

    The IDF spokesman in the clip confirmed they were aware of refugee women and children in the location before deciding to go ahead with the bombing.

    ArbitraryValue ,

    Article 28 of the Geneva Convention:

    The presence of a protected person may not be used to render certain points or areas immune from military operations.

    funkpandemic ,

    Lmao thanks for the laugh, I’ve never seen someone cite the Geneva convention to justify bombing women and children 🤡

    Edit: let me reiterate, lmaoooooooo

    DoomBot5 ,

    Yet here we are with everyone calling it a war crime, then when they are shown it’s in fact not, they just plug their ears and go on with their narrative.

    SirToxicAvenger ,

    narratives dont work when you’re exposed to factual information - but if you willingly disbelieve and remain intentionally ignorant then all the factual information in the world wont change your belief. aka this thread and others like it for the last few weeks.

    DoomBot5 ,

    narratives dont work when you’re exposed to factual information - but if you willingly disbelieve and remain intentionally ignorant then all the factual information in the world wont change your belief.

    Agreed, the amount of people throwing words around like “genocide” and “carpet bombing” have long detached from reality.

    SirToxicAvenger ,

    yep. the ideological warfare is largely electronic these days, fought in forums and threads. a battle waged by paragraph. where. every. word. matters.

    DoomBot5 ,

    And yet words are becoming meaningless because of how they’re abused to push a narrative.

    Maeve ,

    And immediately turned around and said, “No Wolf, that’s not what you’re hearing.”

    dx1 ,

    I think that’s called “gaslighting”. Or “doublespeak”. One of those.

    LordGimp ,

    I found the zionist shill. Can I have a prize?

    Rapidcreek ,

    Zionist? Closest I’ve come to being Jewish was a girl friend I had in high school. Been to Israel on business, but been a lot of places. What’s your problem?

    queue , (edited )
    @queue@lemmy.blahaj.zone avatar

    Zionism isn’t being Jewish, it’s being pro-Israel and its intentions of establishing a unified control of the area. Joe Biden and Donald Trump are Zionists, neither are Jewish in faith or ethnicity. Bernie Sanders is Jewish, but against Israel’s expansion of the borders and acts it does.

    It’s like how you can be against Israel and not be Antisemetic, or be Antisemetic and be pro-Israel for reasons from “I want them exported to there” to “They will allow the Kingdom of God to come to Earth”.

    I am against Israel’s apartheid state, and I am against it’s ethnic cleaning of the area. Just as I am for any nation who aims to do that, like Turkey and Russia. But I don’t explicitly hate Turkish or Russian or Israeli citizens blindly because their government that they don’t have direct control over does horrible acts.

    Zionism ≠ Jewish

    Jewish ≠ Zionism

    Rapidcreek ,

    Actually Zionism originated in the early 1900’s and had to do with establishing a homeland for Jewish people.

    I dislike Israel’s heavy handed approach, but I understand it. I dislike Bibi, because he never really stopped being a New Jersey bar bouncer (yeah he was, look it up). I also understood exactly the outcome of the Hamas attacks, and can understand the resulting war. I can also understand that civilians will be killed in this war as long as they are around Hamas.

    medgremlin ,

    How are they supposed to not be around Hamas? They aren’t allowed to leave Gaza (whether it’s the IDF or Hamas preventing their departure doesn’t matter that much here). Even if they were allowed to leave Gaza, what money would they use to do it? Where would they go? How will they rebuild their lives away from the family and social network that they already have established with limited mobility, immigration options, or money?

    Rapidcreek ,

    I simply made a statement. Israelis aren’t going to not engage Hamas because they surround themselves with civilians. Its up to them to move.

    medgremlin ,

    The Israeli government could fix the problem by putting an end to the settler attacks in the West Bank and the blockade of Gaza in pursuit of a true two-state solution. The easiest way to isolate Hamas would be to fully and properly recognize and protect the rights of Palestinian civilians in a way that would offer them a better life away from Hamas influence. All they’re doing right now is a massive recruiting campaign for Hamas.

    Rapidcreek ,

    That would not eliminate Hamas. Since the butchery early this month, that is the only goal. After that, maybe some ideas can be examined

    DoomBot5 ,

    If you think that will actually make a difference, boy do I have a bridge to sell you.

    DoomBot5 ,

    Even if they were allowed to leave Gaza, what money would they use to do it? Where would they go? How will they rebuild their lives away from the family and social network that they already have established with limited mobility, immigration options, or money?

    Maybe using international aid that isn’t being stolen by Hamas and used to make rockets.

    LordGimp ,

    My problem is preprogrammed regurgitators of nonsense like you that equate zionism with Judaism. These things are not the same.

    Rapidcreek ,

    Nonetheless , what I stated is still true. It’s awful easy for the ignorant to assign labels they don’t truly understand.

    Spyd3r ,
    @Spyd3r@lemmy.world avatar

    Their problem is the facts don’t fit their narrative and its making them mentally unstable.

    iHUNTcriminals , (edited )

    I’m just scrolling. Not really doing anything.

    And nothing’s ever going to change if we don’t do anything.

    So think about the question; “well what can I do?”

    We can’t do shit because we are owned and overpowered by nation-gangs. We are helpless, because the most conniving people at the perfect time in the past made it that way.

    When war is happening we should all feel guilty.

    LordGimp ,

    Boycott Israel

    SirToxicAvenger ,

    not going to happen. look at their export list - we need all of that stuff except for the diamonds

    SlikPikker ,

    Boycutt Israel

    Spread some pro Palestinian narratives

    Call your reps

    It’s not much, but it can help

    slinkyninja ,

    Cut off the funding. Do not support trade that benefits some while hurting others.

    tocopherol ,
    @tocopherol@lemmy.dbzer0.com avatar

    We might be helpless to stop it this second, but there are actions we can take to slow the support for this down and stop it in the future hopefully. Even little things can help, we are owned and overpowered by nation-gangs but they are always outnumbered by their pawns.

    FoundTheVegan ,
    @FoundTheVegan@kbin.social avatar

    Genocide.

    There is no excuse for this. Don't you dare try and find one.

    TinyPizza ,
    @TinyPizza@kbin.social avatar

    Narrator: They did.

    Neato ,
    @Neato@kbin.social avatar

    I found a plausible ratio-oh no wait, it's genocide too.

    JustMy2c ,

    Thank all of you dudes. This is the only non radical platform that actually consists of well thinking people. All others are…

    DoomBot5 ,

    If everyone else is wrong, maybe it really isn’t everyone else…

    bingbong ,

    Ew, shouldn’t you be on reddit 🤢

    JustMy2c ,

    He can also go to Facebook Twitter TT insta or YouTube!

    SCB ,

    And lemmy!

    TinyPizza ,
    @TinyPizza@kbin.social avatar

    Still chasing that tail I see.

    Aleric ,

    Bandwagon arguments are for idiots.

    CarbonIceDragon ,
    @CarbonIceDragon@pawb.social avatar

    Appeal to consensus is a fallacy. One that especially doesn’t work well on the internet, because platforms are generally quite able to be influenced by bots or by removal by moderation staff or platform owners.

    rambaroo ,

    So you’re the type of person who would be onboard with Nazis because it was the thing to do in Germany

    generalpotato ,

    Try browsing Reddit on this issue. Holy hell are bots gone all insane justifying that “Hamas needs to be crushed” on any civilian death. It’s a fascinating case study on how perceptions and narratives can be morphed and controlled.

    masquenox ,

    Don’t have to go to reddit - you can just head on over to c/worldnews here on Lemmy to see the pro-Israeli hasbara narratives being allowed by the mods there.

    SCB ,

    This is the only non radical platform that actually consists of well thinking people

    Lmao

    merthyr1831 ,

    If you exclude exclusively political lemmy instances like lemmygrad, lemmy is at most slightly more politically liberal than reddit, but without astroturfing racists being able to declare what makes it to the front page.

    SCB ,

    That’s an insane take lol.

    Dkarma ,

    You’re a fat right lunatic as proven by your insane posts and lunatic takes. Get help. You need it. Badly.

    Dontcare ,

    This site is teenage slogan yellers, too ignorant to know they’re ignorant

    merthyr1831 ,

    Stay mad that the zionists are wasting their paychecks on astroturfing reddit, fash.

    TinyPizza ,
    @TinyPizza@kbin.social avatar

    go home old man, you're drunk

    dx1 ,

    I don’t think it even breaks down to “liberal” or “conservative”. There’s an objective way of looking at what’s going on, the pro-Israel narrative is basically dependent on ignoring anything that happened before or after Oct. 7, omitting all other facts.

    merthyr1831 ,

    I think that’s a better way of putting it.

    frezik ,

    They did try. It was that there might be terrorist infrastructure there. They know there’s civilians there, but there might be infrastructure. They’re still looking into it, but they dropped that bomb, anyway.

    I’m only barely paraphrasing.

    Dkarma ,

    So… genocide, got it.

    jarfil ,

    But… genocide “with an excuse”. That always fixes everything /s

    SirToxicAvenger ,

    why not? if you’re unwilling to listen to another opinion, is it still a discussion?

    tocopherol ,
    @tocopherol@lemmy.dbzer0.com avatar

    There is no discussion to be had with mass murderers, they stop murdering or you force them to stop.

    JustMy2c ,

    Ow I have heard and revised those opinions. I’ve seen them in the UN today STICKING GEW YELLOW STARS ON THEIR OWN CHEST.

    WHILE THEY ARE LITERALLY BOMBING A TOWN.

    fck hamas but you can’t do that.

    Dontcare ,

    Hamas openly calls for genocide

    TinyPizza ,
    @TinyPizza@kbin.social avatar

    and Israel is in the midst of one...

    TinyPizza ,
    @TinyPizza@kbin.social avatar

    From the article:

    “But you know that there are a lot of refugees, a lot of innocent civilians—men, women, and children—in that refugee camp as well, right?” Blitzer asked again.
    “This is the tragedy of war, Wolf. We as you know, we’ve been saying for days, move south. Civilians who are not involved with Hamas, please move south.”

    Holy shit, Wolf is getting trolled on just as hard as us, but on live TV... I hate the future.

    TokenBoomer OP ,

    Looks like that concept paper was true.

    TinyPizza ,
    @TinyPizza@kbin.social avatar

    Yeah :(

    drislands ,

    Which concept paper?

    TokenBoomer OP ,

    This one.

    DarthBueller ,

    Doesn’t matter whether this is real or not, it’s far from a new concept, and the experiment of Palestinian refugee camps in Egypt was a lesson that Egypt has zero desire to repeat. Hell, Egypt now is only considering allowing wounded Palestinians into Sinai after massive international pressure. The plain truth of the matter is that Egypt has NO interest in admitting any Palestinians. No Arab country does. Hell, it’s amazing that there hasn’t been a successful Palestinian revolution in Jordan, since they’re in the majority. The Arab strategy for decades has been to push anti-Jewish (not merely anti-Israeli) propaganda to redirect popular discontent from domestic politics to “the plight of their Muslim brethren,” which also has the knock-on effect of redirecting a fair amount of domestic terrorism to international terrorism; while also not allowing additional Palestinian refugees into the country because the Palestinians have a history of actively destabilizing Arab nations they’re admitted to.

    TWeaK ,

    And then they throw a bomb in the south.

    sudoshakes ,

    The US fucked up hard on its killing of civilians, but MODT of the time it was at least a result of supporting direct ground combat where friendly forces were engaged. At least that was true from weeks after the initial invasions of Iraq and Afghanistan.

    Israel is tossing bombs at targets, using the most advanced aircraft in the world… and their ground forces are not within 10 miles of the site.

    That’s what makes this inexcusable. They had time. They didn’t have ground forces under threat. Every vehicle isn’t an IED waiting to happen yet. They have the time to check for authorization before letting a JDAM off the rails.

    The right to defend has to come with purse string implications if they use it as right to kill without mercy. They do this, we cut funding. They do it more, in clearly not accidental strikes, we impose sanctions. The purse will hurt enough due to their reliance on western arms, that they change lest they not be able to drop bombs at all.

    It’s one thing to have a legit terror target and mistake the building or some freak accident. It’s another to drop a bomb on a refugee camp and then simply shrug.

    tocopherol ,
    @tocopherol@lemmy.dbzer0.com avatar

    The video of the car being shot by the tank is a clear example of their actions. If anyone hasn’t seen it, there was a tank parked on a road sort of hidden from sight, in a ‘safe area’ in central Gaza, outside of the evacuation zone. A car didn’t see it at first, noticed and turned around still a bit away from the tank, as it begins to drive away the tank fires on them and kills them. If you look at the strikes going on now this is what it is, it isn’t a ‘Hamas rocket position’ or other BS, there hasn’t been a shred of verifiable evidence for any target that it was a legitimate military target.

    SCB ,

    military spends 2 weeks saying not to be in the operational area or they’ll assume you’re Hamas

    Military tells civilians explicitly how to approach so as not to be seen as Hamas

    you erratically drive a car at said military in said operational zone

    how could the IDF do this??

    SCB , (edited )

    “refugee camp” is the designation of several cities in Gaza. This was a city of 50k people pre-evac. It’s not a bunch of tents.

    sudoshakes ,

    deleted_by_author

    •
    SCB ,

    . You asked why it matters and it matters because this statement is 100% incorrect.

    Point A.) They acknowledged it was a known refugee camp. A known collection of civilians gathering after being displaced. They knew these people were there.

    It is not a current refugee camp. It is in the North, where they told people to evacuate from. It is not a “collection of civilians gathering” - the city is mostly abandoned. These aren’t even the first bombs dropped there, by a long shot

    This sort of misunderstanding lets people bring this up as if Israel is currently bombing refugees, which is a significant lie.

    bradorsomething ,

    “Look Wolf, we’ve experienced a genocide, leave this to the professionals, okay?”

    samus12345 ,
    @samus12345@lemmy.world avatar

    https://y.yarn.co/e75f034d-c799-42a4-8a62-1a00aa63e6b1_text.gif

    _dev_null ,
    @_dev_null@lemmy.zxcvn.xyz avatar

    Get the fuck out of here and let the grownups talk.

    samus12345 ,
    @samus12345@lemmy.world avatar

    I meant the sentiment unironically. Apologies to those who were offended and didn’t use insulting, condescending language.

    TokenBoomer OP ,

    I got it. :)

    SirToxicAvenger ,

    but this is the now. the present. well, technically it’s the past. but tomorrow is a brand new day!

    Dontcare ,

    It’s fascinating. Every war has collateral damage and Hamas deliberately hides behind civilians- a war crime- and Israel gives them opportunity to leave

    And hamas deliberately targets civilians and you say nothing

    dx1 ,

    What are some of your own quotes on Israel targeting civilians? I assume they’re intended to absolve Israel of all responsibility?

    assassin_aragorn ,

    Frankly I don’t know which words are powerful enough to describe this and condemn it. I don’t think the right words exist to explain how bad it is.

    This logic is just… If it’s justified to blow up a refugee camp to kill a senior leader of Hamas, then by that same logic, Hamas would be justified in blowing up Israel’s capitol buildings to kill Netanyahu.

    Fucking hell, not only that, but this logic defends the Hamas attack on Israel too. There could have been IDF members there or government officials.

    I don’t see how anybody condemning Hamas’ terrorist attack could not condemn this. It’s the same picture.

    graymess ,

    More like it would be justified for Hamas to blow up Netanyahu’s neighborhood to try to kill him. Even then, it’s not even a fair comparison. These are refugees who have already lost their homes and families to Israel’s attacks and now they’re being targeted directly as a group. It’s about as high as war crimes go.

    jeremyparker ,

    Yeah the whole argument skates over the question of why they were in a refugee camp in the first place. Probably a tree feel over and damaged their apartment building or something.

    pirrrrrrrr ,

    The Hamas attack was terrible. The IDF response has been far, far worse.

    assassin_aragorn ,

    It’s impressive in a horrible way how they’ve managed to top a brutal, visceral terrorist attack.

    raspberriesareyummy ,

    as was to be expected. :( I am 99.9% convinced Netanyahu was just waiting for Hamas to give him an excuse to escalate. They turned out to be the useful idiots (in the form of raping mass-murdering f*ckheads) that he needed.

    Thief_of_Crows ,

    Bro quit listening to Israeli propaganda. They were attacking the people oppressing them, who want to genocide them.

    stolid_agnostic ,

    The violent weight put behind all of this shows me that they’ve been waiting for the opportunity for an old fashioned purge.

    TokenBoomer OP ,

    It’s crazy how we normalize killing other humans. Mankind can’t evolve until we figure that shit out.

    stolid_agnostic ,

    I have been thinking about this for the last several years. We have grown our technology but are still basically angry monkeys flinging poo. Until we can evolve our own base instincts to match our reality, then nonsense like this will continue.

    TokenBoomer OP ,

    We live in a society exquisitely dependent on science and technology, in which hardly anyone knows anything about science and technology.

    Carl Sagan

    Everyone should read Demon-Haunted World.

    fosforus ,

    then by that same logic, Hamas would be justified in blowing up Israel’s capitol buildings to kill Netanyahu.

    As this is a war (started by Hamas, but still a war), then yes, of course they would be “justified” in doing that. And Israel would then be justified in reacting to that. I’m sure they would do that if they were able to.

    Fucking hell, not only that, but this logic defends the Hamas attack on Israel too.

    Now it does, but not before the war was on. There’s however the subtle difference that Hamas primarily targets civilians. They attack soldiers only as self-defence or when the soldiers are in the way of murdering civilians. Israel works in an opposite way, they only target Hamas soldiers. Given how they don’t give much of a fuck for collateral damage, the end result looks similar, but intentions do matter. It implies that when Israel wins this, almost all gazans are still alive. If Hamas won this, Israel would vanish.

    Thief_of_Crows ,

    Bro you have no clue what you’re talking about. Hamas is the victims of attempted genocide. They do not target civilians, they launch rockets they aren’t able to aim (because of the attempted genocide preventing them having anything Israel doesn’t approve) at Israel.

    Israel is the bad guy in this conflict, not Hamas.

    stolid_agnostic ,

    This was was started by Israel decades ago through their apartheid actions. This was always going to happen. Until these millions of people are allowed to be free, this will continue.

    Sparlock ,

    Ahh the “this all started on Oct 7 defense”.

    What a gloriously moronic way to justify genocide and ethnic cleansing.

    Etterra ,

    No it’s worse. It would be like bombing a school or hospital while Netanyahu was visiting it. The Capitol building(s) are arguably a valid military target.

    dx1 , (edited )

    I was confused for years about the history of the conflict. I had heard “Israel was there 2,000 years ago”, and just had this blurry idea of “Israel was full of Jewish people at some point and there were also Arabs at some point”. But the second you actually double down and go, OK, what were the actual demographics in this region, every year in the last 200 years:

    en.wikipedia.org/…/Demographic_history_of_Palesti…

    Jewish population in the region - 2.5% as of 1800 - didn’t even break 16% until WWI and hadn’t even been a majority since the 4th century. The influx of Jewish migrants into the region was spurred by post-1880s Zionism, which specifically sought to reclaim Palestine as a Jewish territory. And now, besides the Gaza strip and the constantly shrinking West Bank, they control the entire area of Mandatory Palestine, and then some. You keep looking into it and realize, yes, there was actually a forced expulsion of the Palestinian population, the Nakba, in 1948 - 700k Palestinians expelled, 500 villages destroyed, and the renaming of the former towns and cities to have Jewish names. Have you ever heard that word used by someone from Israel, or someone in Western media? “Nakba”? This huge act of ethnic cleansing, central to explaining this entire conflict, and it’s just completely brushed aside, as if the civilization never existed.

    You look at videos of interviews about the conflict from the 1980s, they’re using the exact same language about “Israel’s right to exist”, “Israel’s right to self defense”. How long does it take after you violently expel a population for your “right to exist” on the land to take effect, exactly? What is the mathematical formula for reparations and Palestinian right to return here? Nobody is even asking these questions, rather, the remaining Palestinian population in its entirety is being sidelined as a “problem” and “terrorists” - it’s literally the language of Nazi Germany being rehashed by the Israeli state, under its (false) pretense to represent the Jewish people, while the existence of this other population they displaced is just erased. I’m just speechless to witness it. The entire discourse about this conflict is inherently racist, to such an extreme degree.

    assassin_aragorn ,

    Most of what I looked into was trying to find the source of it all, so I didn’t look that much into the more modern history, but you’re absolutely right. The British and Zionists made a deal to grow the Jewish population in the region to grow British influence. Israel as a state isn’t even a hundred years old I think.

    It is disgusting how between the Balfour Declaration and present the narrative has dehumanized Palestinians and stripped them of their cultural identity – which is genocide through and through. What’s worse is that I think they’ve been kicked down by everyone. In the first Arab Israeli War, the Arab nations occupied Palestine during the war. When they lost, the land was either ceded to or taken by Israel. Now, after decades of using the Palestinians, the neighboring Arab nations won’t take Palestinian refugees. Some have accepted Israel.

    And then there’s Hamas, who effectively occupies part of the region and launches attacks from civilian areas. Once again, using Palestinians to their own ends. They have their stockpiles of water and medicine and food, and they aren’t sharing. They anticipated Israel collectively punishing (genociding) all of Palestine in response to their attacks. The radicals are also part of why the neighboring countries aren’t taking in Palestinians. When they did in the past, radicals like Hamas took advantage of it to cause civil strife and conflict. It’s all such a mess. Everyone’s using Palestinians for their own ends while Israel continues their genocide.

    At this point, I think Israel has been around long enough that you’d just be punishing children for the sins of their fathers if the state was to be dissolved. By no means though does that mean the borders should stay the same. It should return to the original demarcation, and a state of Palestine, or perhaps Nakba, should be established next to them. Or maybe Israel can treat everyone within their borders and colonies as citizens with equal rights. I know neither are realistic. The latter is impossible with the IDF and conservative government. The former is impossible because of Hamas. They refuse a two state solution, and reiterated the other day that they would continue to do attacks like the first one until everyone there was dead.

    Feel free to correct me if anything I’ve said is wrong, like I said I looked into the early history a lot more than the recent. I don’t know what can be done. You have the IDF hellbent on bombing all of Gaza, and you have Hamas hellbent on killing everyone in Israel.

    Rentlar ,

    It’s just sad, absolutely sad that Israel is using these excuses to use weapons of war against thousands of impoverished, innocent civilians, the large majority having nothing to do with the tragedy that occurred in early October.

    The U.S. needs to take away the toys it gave to Israel.

    SirToxicAvenger ,

    maybe. I’ve heard they’re running low on iron dome missiles

    remer ,

    But they’re replacing the iron dome with the iron beam which is lasers so it’s like infinite ammo as long as they’re electricity. Problem solved, right!?

    SirToxicAvenger ,

    an escalation of asymmetric warfare? sure, why not? the issue is more of a technical one, you have to hold the laser beam on the moving target for long enough for it to heat up the missile casing enough that it goes kerplodey - but hey, if you’ve got that covered then why stop there? I wouldnt mind having a beam rifle, would make sniping a dream…

    Dontcare ,

    Why doesn’t Egypt let in the gazans ?

    reverendsteveii ,

    “There could be infrastructure there, there could be tunnels there.”

    Translation:

    We killed them all just in case one of them was an asshole. What if we’re actually totally justified in bombing a refugee camp? We certainly don’t know for sure that we weren’t. Now that all of those innocent children are dead we’re checking under their corpses to see if there’s anything we can use to make ourselves seem like the good guy here.

    frequenttimetraveler ,
    @frequenttimetraveler@lemmy.world avatar

    That s such a cynical admission but also very stupid. In order to kill 1 terrorist, you just created 300. Very smart.

    By the same logic btw, a dozen nukes would be enough to ensure that no terrorists survive, until the cockroaches invent molotov cocktails

    reverendsteveii ,

    in order to kill one terrorist you just created 300

    If your goal is peaceful coexistence then this is a bad strategy, yes. If your goal is peaceful expansion and the annihilation of your neighbors then every terrorist you create also serves as an excuse for you to carpet bomb a neighborhood

    jeremyparker ,

    It’s not just about Palestinian terrorists. It’s about us.

    I’ve been on the “can people stop being assholes to Palestinians” team for many years - but this recent hamas attack was disgusting - they’ve always been disgusting but this was recent. I still supported Palestinians - but even I took a step back and was like, uhhhhh

    Israel’s response has been worse. As a result, we’re all back to fully supporting Palestine. For as long as Israel is seen as the victim, they’ll have the world’s support; but if they start killing hundreds of innocents to get one person - like, did they give this any thought at all?

    loki_d20 ,

    Just to note, they’ve bombed people in cars fleeing Gaza as directed by them as well. There really is no safe way to be in or attempt to leave.

    merthyr1831 ,

    This is why Palestinians are staying at home despite the threats.

    They know that if they leave they’ll be bombed.

    They know that if they stay they’ll be bombed.

    They know that if they leave and survive they’ll be permanent refugees to a world that despises them.

    They know that if they leave and survive and are allowed to return, they’ll be clearing rubble for the rest of their lives (until Israel bombs them again)

    No matter what, they’re doomed to be a tool for propaganda or a corpse. I’d rather be a corpse in my own home in a final act of defiance than a statistic of a settler colonial cleansing project.

    Dontcare ,

    Pals have had millions of chances at peace, they have said they will fight to the death against the existence of Israel. They are getting what they wanted

    merthyr1831 ,

    Not even in death will your soul know peace.

    Dontcare ,

    No, they’ve had days to leave and many of them did. Not sure why Egypt doesn’t open the rafah crossing

    jimbo ,

    I’m all for Israel defending themselves, but they’re not even trying to hide the fact that this is about revenge, not security.

    erranto ,

    70 year of atrocities committed in Palestine with the support of western powers and the indifference of western media

    2023 : IDF commits yet another round of genocidal atrocities in Palestine

    western media: Surprised Pikatchu face 🤯

    Blackmist ,

    There’s no surprise. Nobody is. Place has been a warzone since before I was born, and will be long after I’m dead.

    They’re just getting all the juicy pictures of dead kids to sell their papers.

    Give it a week and they’ll be a massive flood in Bangladesh or somewhere, and they’ll forget all about dead Israelis and Palestinians, and we can have a good old look at a load of water bloated brown corpses instead.

    Mrkawfee ,

    Not just indifference. Actively supporting while character attacking opposition.

    Dontcare ,

    Pals despite there constant war live as good or better than most other Muslim countries in the region

    stolid_agnostic ,

    I have noticed a change in tone from the colonel. He was very much all fire and bluster before while explaining why it’s Palestinians’ fault they are dying. Now he comes across as far gentler while explaining why it’s Palestinians’ fault they are dying.

    SankaraStone ,
    @SankaraStone@lemmy.world avatar

    Have you ever seen a politician make the rounds on Sunday news shows? They, especially Republicans, sound extremely different on Fox News vs. the rest of media (Democrats sounds different on mainstream media vs. progressive independent media). This colonel is doing the exact same thing. He learned from the clip going viral and the way people are reacting to it to sound like he’s concerned and feels for the Palestinians rather than saying it’s their own fault like he was in the Blitzer clip.

    TokenBoomer OP ,

    Flak in the propaganda model.

    SankaraStone ,
    @SankaraStone@lemmy.world avatar

    I’m more interested in what the term is for folks who wear different masks for different audiences and in particular folks who react to criticism by putting on a mask later all while saying the same thing. It was astonishing seeing this guy on Erin Burnett’s show after seeing him on Wolf Blitzer’s show. It was like watching Lindsey Graham on the Daily Show or Meet the Press vs. seeing him on Fox News Sunday discussing the exact same stuff.

    Edit: I’d only listened to the Burnett interview. They’re different people.

    TokenBoomer OP ,

    Duplicitous?

    TokenBoomer OP ,

    See, people can change.

    T1000 ,

    Why the fuck is a Scottish guy defending this

    SankaraStone ,
    @SankaraStone@lemmy.world avatar

    Yeah, the complex reality of Judaism, the Jewish people, Israel, and Israelis is fascinating. But it pales in comparison to the horror of what’s going on right now, and that needs to stop.

    TokenBoomer OP ,

    Fat Bastard was busy eating baaabies.

    tronx4002 ,

    Anyone have the clip?

    redhorsejacket ,

    Its in the article, my guy.

    tronx4002 ,

    Trying in chrome I see it now. Doesnt show in FF Browser.

    thegoodyinthehoody ,

    Did he have a Scottish accent?

    TokenBoomer OP ,

    He did.

    Rapidcreek ,

    You mean this?

    “A short while ago, IDF fighter jets, acting on ISA intelligence, killed Ibrahim Biari, the Commander of Hamas’ Central Jabaliya Battalion. Biari was one of the leaders responsible for sending “Nukbha” terrorist operatives to Israel to carry out the murderous terror attack on October 7th. Numerous Hamas terrorists were hit in the strike.

    Biari oversaw all military operations in the northern Gaza Strip since the IDF entered. He was also responsible for sending the terrorists who carried out the 2004 terrorist attack in the Ashdod Port in which 13 Israelis were murdered, and was responsible for directing rocket fire at Israel, and advancing numerous attacks against the IDF, over the last two decades.

    His elimination was carried out as part of a wide-scale strike on terrorists and terror infrastructure belonging to the Central Jabaliya Battalion, which had taken control over civilian buildings in Gaza City. The strike damaged Hamas’ command and control in the area, as well as its ability to direct military activity against IDF soldiers operating throughout the Gaza Strip. As a result of the strike, a large number of terrorists who were with Biari were killed. Underground terror infrastructure embedded beneath the buildings, used by the terrorists, also collapsed after the strike.

    The IDF reiterates its call to the residents of the area to move south for their safety.”an this?

    TinyPizza ,
    @TinyPizza@kbin.social avatar

    This is an article about how veteran news man Wolf Blitzer found such logic disgusting. You think swooping in and doubling down is helping disprove that?

    "My three kids are gone, my kids, no one is alive," one despondent man named Jabar could be heard saying as his friends tried to console him.
    Dr. Atef Al-Kahlot, director of the nearby Indonesian Hospital, said the total number of people wounded and killed is about 400.

    What a just and noble war the brave bombs of Israel wage. We can all learn a lot from this I think.

    Joncash2 ,

    I hate to tell you this, we won’t learn a god damn thing. Humanity forgets it’s atrocities as quickly as a generation passes. We do not learn the lessons of our fathers anymore. All we see are repeats after the old have passed on.

    SaltySalamander ,
    @SaltySalamander@kbin.social avatar

    We do not learn the lessons of our fathers anymore

    We never actually did. It's just a feel-good sentiment.

    blazera ,
    @blazera@kbin.social avatar

    Biari oversaw all military operations in the northern Gaza Strip since the IDF entered

    so...defending his country?

    capital ,

    Oh are we pretending Hamas isn’t a terrorist org now?

    blazera ,
    @blazera@kbin.social avatar

    Zionists are the terrorists, invading another country and committing genocide in the name of their ethnostate

    lmaydev ,

    They’re both terrorists tbf.

    SaltySalamander ,
    @SaltySalamander@kbin.social avatar

    100%

    There are no good guys in this except for the innocent civilians being murdered (by both sides)

    capital ,

    Sure.

    But Hamas too, right? I just want to see how far off the reservation you are.

    FoundTheVegan ,
    @FoundTheVegan@kbin.social avatar

    You people say the same thing over and over again.

    You play word games, ignoring the destruction Israel does to innocents from the safety of your semantics

    capital , (edited )

    Hahahaha you can’t even bring yourself to say it.

    And I wouldn’t ask Palestinians that question. Hamas has won elections there and does well in polls.

    I already know the answer.

    Cool literal propaganda tho.

    wetnoodle ,
    @wetnoodle@sopuli.xyz avatar

    The point is, Hamas is fucking abhorrent and shouldn’t be an organization that exists, but, every single fucking thing Israel and the west have done in regards to Palestinians fully encourages their support of Hamas. Imagine living in a concentration camp and being expected to have sympathy for the people holding you there. If you can say you would, you’re a lying piece of shit.

    SirToxicAvenger ,

    the problem will be resolved in the correct and proper way within a few months. go get angry about something you have an actual chance of doing something about maybe?

    FoundTheVegan ,
    @FoundTheVegan@kbin.social avatar

    Same. Thing. Over. And over. And over. And over again.

    blazera ,
    @blazera@kbin.social avatar

    Nah hamas is in response to zionist attacks on palestine

    capital ,

    Hey well I appreciate the honesty.

    TokenBoomer OP , (edited )

    Who decides which groups are terrorists? America says Hamas is terrorism. Erdogan says they’re liberation fighters. One man’s terrorist is another man’s freedom fighter. The African National Congress (while bombing and killing for their freedom) were designated terrorist. And then they weren’t terrorist. Now they are a political party.

    SirToxicAvenger ,

    go back and look at what else Erdogan has had to say. go ahead, we’ll wait.

    capital ,

    The choice to reference Erdogan is an interesting one…

    TokenBoomer OP ,

    Should I have referenced Nelson Mandela?

    SirToxicAvenger ,

    wasnt he all about peace - resisting, but peacefully? Gandhi did something similar - of course, it ended badly for him.

    Erdogan is sort of an odd choice here.

    TokenBoomer OP , (edited )

    The U.S. Government Had Nelson Mandela on Terrorist Watch Lists Until 2008. Here’s Why.

    Countries that designate Hamas as Terrorists https://lemmy.world/pictrs/image/3fd7b1b9-e597-4cd8-b1ad-6f9ccf76de2f.png

    SirToxicAvenger ,

    skimmed the article. something about relations in the cold war or something. was the why buried down at the bottom? I didnt make it that far

    TokenBoomer OP ,

    The Department of Defense included the ANC in a 1988 report billed as profiles of “key regional terrorist groups” from around the world. Indeed, ANC actions during this period would include nighttime raids that destroyed fuel storage tanks and nearly two days of fires in 1980, a bombing at a bar in Durban that left three dead and more than 60 wounded, and a car bomb that killed 19 outside of the headquarters of the country’s Air Force in Pretoria in 1983.

    SirToxicAvenger ,

    ah, makes sense then - he was the leader of the ANC and the ANC actions included acts of terrorism. I guess he mellowed in old age? time/reflection will do that to a person.

    TokenBoomer OP ,

    The world’s perception changed.

    TokenBoomer OP ,

    You missed the point, probably on purpose.

    Oisteink ,

    You can put as much makeup as you want on a pig, it’s still a pig. Force people to move, and bombing civilians? Donning a Jew star in the UN? The whole country of Israel is a disgrace

    pingveno ,

    Donning a Jew star in the UN?

    Sorry, this is bad how?

    Oisteink ,

    Do you have any idea what that star was used for? Tip: it was not to mark people who was murdering kids. It’s spitting on those poor souls that was forced to wear the yellow star. These guys represent a country that bomb civilians and has nothing to do with holocaust.

    If you can’t see the difference I’m sorry.

    pingveno ,

    It's the Star of David, used by Jews for millennia and the symbol on the flag of Israel. Of course I'm familiar with its use in the Holocaust.

    SirToxicAvenger ,

    the IDF got a top operative of the enemy forces. that’s all that matters.

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