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Man imprisoned 16 years for wrongful conviction fatally shot by Georgia deputy

A man who spent more than 16 years in prison in Florida on a wrongful conviction was shot and killed Monday by a sheriff’s deputy in Georgia during a traffic stop, authorities and representatives said.

Leonard Allen Cure, 53, was identified by the Georgia Bureau of Investigation, which is reviewing the shooting.

Schadrach , (edited )

For reference, dash cam footage of the incident: www.youtube.com/watch?v=7GrcptVf8Yk

blackn1ght ,

Does the police not have an independent body that reviews any time the police use their firearms? Surely it should be an automatic suspension, regardless of the reason. How does the US seem to have such a big police problem?

TWeaK ,

Police Unions. There’s a few Behind the Bastards podcast episodes on how they started.

Rambi ,

How do the police manage to murder someone in a traffic stop??? Doesn’t that just entail the police telling someone their brake lights aren’t working or ticketing them for being 5mph over the speed limit? Man I’m glad the police (and everybody else for that matter) don’t have guns in my country because that would be happening here too. That poor man and his family.

pinkdrunkenelephants ,

Because they were looking for him and murdered him on purpose.

Rambi ,

I just read the article and that is absolutely disgusting, even if the deputy’s side of the story is all true why are they allowed kill someone for “resisting arrest??” Shouldn’t they only use their gun if their life or the lives of members of the public are being threatened? I really hope that cop gets life in prison and has an extremely miserable rest of his life like the cop that murdered George Floyd, but something tells me that won’t be happening here.

TWeaK , (edited )

You read the article?

He cooperated at first but became violent after he was told he was being arrested, a GBI news release said.

The agency said preliminary information shows the deputy shocked the driver with a stun gun when he failed to obey commands, and the driver then began assaulting the deputy. The GBI said the deputy again tried using the stun gun and a baton to subdue him, then drew his gun and shot the driver when he continued to resist.

They tried to stun him twice, use a baton, the only option left was to use the gun. I’m not saying the story is 100% true, and I don’t know what he was even arrested for in the first place, but that is exactly the kind of restrained escalation you would expect.

Edit: Added first line of the quote for further context. Can you lot just please read the fucking article? Pick your battles, this isn’t a good one.

Welt ,

Using a stun gun on a compliant driver isn’t acceptable

TWeaK ,

But the driver wasn’t compliant though. He was first put under arrest, then became violent, then the stun gun came out. 2 tries with the stun gun, then the baton, then the gun.

Personally I would prefer the officer didn’t have a gun, and that all handguns were banned like in other countries, but the escalation seems appropriate (at least according to the account given, no telling if it’s actually true).

Enfors ,
@Enfors@lemm.ee avatar

Controversial oppinion, perhaps: would it not have been a better option to just, give up and let him go (for now), rather than fucking shoot him? I mean, wasn’t this over a traffic stop?

TWeaK ,

Maybe, maybe not. If he were to then go off and commit a serious crime, people would be asking why the officer let him get away.

Enfors ,
@Enfors@lemm.ee avatar

Are you saying police should shoot people during routine traffic stops just in case, because they might otherwise commit a serious crime at a later date?

unnecessarygoat ,

the driver became violent after the stun gun was used

RagingRobot ,

Oh so he tortured him with a stun gun until he murdered him glad we got that straight

TWeaK ,

You don’t have anything straight. You’re just raging and irrational.

RagingRobot ,

What’s irrational is the fear (or possibly even hate hopefully not) that this officer had for this man.

I’m no expert but I’m inclined to think it’s the fear that officers get indoctrinated with in training and from the media that causes these types of things. They went up to that car on high alert thinking they were in danger because their job is known for danger and they are trained that any incident could turn deadly. So they walk up ready to pull their weapons.

Enfors ,
@Enfors@lemm.ee avatar

Yes. The man, on the other hand, had a rational fear of the cops given his history. No wonder he resisted - I wouldn’t be surprised if he had a panic reaction to being arrested. Obviously, the best outcome would have been if he had complied, I’m not saying it’s okay to resist even an illegal arrest necessarily, but sometimes you panic and react irrationally. That’s just being human.

pinkdrunkenelephants ,

He was already wrongfully locked up for 16 years and they wanted him back in jail again, that’s all.

When he quite rightfully resisted, they murdered him.

It was 100% purposeful on the police’s part.

TWeaK ,

He rightfully resisted arrest? Even if the arrest is unlawful, resisting arrest is clearly illegal.

It’s a big assumption to say that they wanted him back in jail. It might be somewhat likely, but we don’t know either way. We don’t know the reason for his arrest.

pinkdrunkenelephants ,

Actually there is some nuance; most people don’t know you actually do have the right to resist unlawful arrest to some extent.

Sauce

TWeaK ,

Funky, hopefully Cure’s lawyers can use that.

pinkdrunkenelephants ,

Not after he’s dead, and if that’s your point, go sit down in the corner with the other bootlickers.

TWeaK ,

Are the rest of his family not called Cure?

Flambo ,

Even if the arrest is unlawful, resisting arrest is clearly illegal.

And the punishment for breaking any law is death? Or from your prior comment:

They tried to stun him twice, use a baton, the only option left was to use the gun.

Yeah, the gun was the only option. You definitely can’t just let someone run away for resisting arrest at a traffic stop. Even if you impound their now-abandoned car, they might go on a whole spree of resisting arrests or something.

In case you can’t tell my tone is past sarcasm and well into disgust.

TWeaK ,

So it’s ok for police to let an aggressive and violent man run loose?

JokeDeity ,

The only good cop is a dead cop and I’ll keep saying it until the day I die. Fuck all pigs to death.

TWeaK ,

So you’re a pig fucker?

Twelve20two ,

I don’t want to fuck any of them, whether it’s to the death or not

100_kg_90_de_belin ,

Hated by two branches out of three

OsrsNeedsF2P ,

Three branches out of three

Enfors ,
@Enfors@lemm.ee avatar

And hanged from one branch out of a tree (sort of)

Rambi ,

You mean branches of government? I don’t think the police are a branch of government… I mean the executive, or the executors is a pretty good description for them, though the branch of government executive tends to execute policy not people.

pinkdrunkenelephants ,

Anytime you all want to band together and do something about those motherfuckers

Anytime

phoenixz ,

Armchair heroes unite!

Cryophilia ,

Yeah, after you lol

Mr_Blott ,

If only yous had some sort of outdated rights to like, guns or something

wildcardology ,

Go get them meal team six!

JokeDeity ,

Damn, you brought out all the straight up pussies with your one comment.

pinkdrunkenelephants ,

Those are actually spook accounts and this is not the first time they tried to forum slide when people talk about revolution.

Do NOT engage with them at all. Don’t say anything to them. Just downvote the hell out of them and ignore them because they want people to argue so they can forum slide

imaqtpie ,
@imaqtpie@sh.itjust.works avatar

Forum slide? That doesn’t even remotely apply to this situation, unless I’m misunderstanding you somehow.

They’re just making fun of you because your comment has a very Navy SEAL confirmed badass copypasta feel to it. Feels over reals.

sturmblast ,

Riiight

NightAuthor ,

Aren’t we mostly software developers and general tech nerds here? Maybe we could make some sort of statement, or impact using those skills?

Deftdrummer ,

Finally someone calls it like it is. Y’all won’t do shit.

DeanFogg ,

Not everyone’s a software boy buddy

reverendsteveii ,

This was a hit.

Sir_Kevin ,
@Sir_Kevin@lemmy.dbzer0.com avatar

Or just the usual treatment of a black man in georgia. We may never know which…

SpezBroughtMeHere ,

Well sure, if you go by media companies which make money off of sensational headlines rather than factual statistics. Of course you’ll never know.

JokeDeity ,

I don’t fully know how the censorship works on Lemmy yet, but you should not be alive and it should be by your own hands.

SpezBroughtMeHere ,

Because that’s a completely normal and rational response. Buddy, you ok? You should probably talk to somebody.

Sir_Kevin ,
@Sir_Kevin@lemmy.dbzer0.com avatar

I don’t even watch/read mainstream media.

blanketswithsmallpox ,

… You realize this is a literal mainstream media site right… Commenting on an article from literal mainstream CBS media lol.

whofearsthenight ,

Uh, bud, you ever look at the statistics?

SpezBroughtMeHere ,

Yeah, hence the point of my comment. Which part are you confused by?

Cryophilia ,

He was a poor black man in Georgia.

This was a statistically likely outcome.

Schadrach ,

He had just recently received an 800k payout for wrongful conviction in FL. I wouldn’t call him poor.

INHALE_VEGETABLES ,

Would you actually go to jail for that long for that much money?

Get out of here lol.

sin_free_for_00_days ,

If it were guaranteed? Maybe. I mean, I worked for 30+ years and ended up with less than that.

INHALE_VEGETABLES ,

Yep it is 100% guaranteed but you get murdered right after 👍👍👍👍

sin_free_for_00_days ,

Well that is an important detail you left out of the hypothetical question!

Schadrach ,

Didn’t say anything along those lines, just that it’s inaccurate to describe him as poor, when he just got a large payout.

Also if you’re curious there is dash and body cam footage of the incident: www.youtube.com/watch?v=7GrcptVf8Yk

INHALE_VEGETABLES ,

Yeah bro he got like 56k per year with no rent, and there are no expenses in jail am I right? Plus I bet he probably only got his shit pushed in a couple times for it, he was loaded.

/s

Schadrach ,

Your assigning way more to my statement than is there. If I hand you 800k and you don’t have a staggeringly huge amount of debt, you are not poor, by definition. Regardless of what travails you went through, how shit your life was before then.

Because whether or not you are poor is not a description of how good or bad the events of your life have been to you, but how much money you have.

INHALE_VEGETABLES ,

That’s a poor argument.

Pat_Riot ,
@Pat_Riot@lemmy.today avatar

Ah, but ain’t that America for you and me?

FrickAndMortar ,

Something to see, baby…

Telling that the song was written as a criticism of class in America, but conservatives missed the point and ran with it as a model of what they thought America should be - little pink houses, for you and me.

Ultraviolet ,

The police are just an organized crime syndicate.

FilthyHookerSpit , (edited )

Your statement is factually true

There are gangs within the police. Systemic crisis within systemic crisis.

HerbalGamer ,

404 Page not found.

Thank you, that was very informative.

FilthyHookerSpit ,

Sorry, I tried cutting out googles amp. Fixed the link now.

agent_flounder ,
@agent_flounder@lemmy.world avatar

Miller couldn’t comment specifically on Cure’s death but said he has represented dozens of people convicted of crimes who were later exonerated.

“Even when they’re free, they always struggled with the concern, the fear that they’ll be convicted and incarcerated again for something they didn’t do,” he said.

Totally understandable. I would imagine that’s kind of traumatic.

(He was incarcerated in FL and killed in GA btw)

Assuming this wasn’t execution…

Cops are taught Killilogy. I gather they’re trained to protect their own life at all costs and that the public is out to kill them. Also deep seated racism^1 means they fear black men more. So they shoot at the drop of a hat (or for no reason at all).

We really need to disarm the goddamn cops if they can’t be trained to de-escalate and control a situation without murdering civilians all the time.

  1. Did you know that early 1900s crime “statistics” were heavily biased against black people? These “statistics” established a bullshit racist narrative that black people are more prone to commit crime, which persists to this day, influencing government policies, more than a century later? (Source: The Condemnation of Blackness: Race, Crime and the Making of Modern Urban America by Khalil Gibran Muhammad)
andrew_bidlaw ,

I won’t suspect an intent where a regular assholeness applies.

That said, they feel like they own the streets. Not only scared, but drunk on the lack of consequencies. That double-wrong story and recent accident when a cop raced after a suspect and slammed into an uninvolved car killing two shows how everything is wrong with their current position and thinking. Act now, think later - as their motto. It’s not what these public servants are supposed to do, not ones with guns and tanks.

ACAB, because to be this one good cop, you need to actively and implicitly avoid using this given power to do fuck all. This system and their union enables them to act like shit by default. When you order something by delivery, you don’t think about how a character of a delivery guy affects the state of a package, you complain if they give you a box of feces. Why cops aren’t judged like that when they put feces whenever they like, and are free to do so, with lethal consequencies.

vivadanang ,

There might be a ton of awesome cops in my town, but the SPOG - seattle police officer’s guild - is constructed to defend the worst and maximize the force’s overtime grift. So fuck.

iforgotmyinstance ,

This was a hit. The cops don’t like it when someone publicly and professionally embarrasses them.

Cryophilia ,

He was killed in a different state. I think it’s just that Black men are killed all the time by cops.

PugJesus ,
@PugJesus@kbin.social avatar

Jesus Christ.

toasteecup ,

People give me shit for saying the South is a store, then stuff like this happens.

toasteecup ,

Hey @jimbolauski , still think I’ve got rustled jimmies or can we see a bit more eye to eye now about my hate of the South?

jimbolauski ,

I see I’m living in your head rent free.

I don’t have enough detailes. I don’t like to jump to conclusions based on limited information.

SquirtleHermit ,

I see rent free still lives in your head rent free

jimbolauski ,

You got me?

SquirtleHermit ,

My b man, wasn’t trying to get you. Just thought it was funny.

NABDad ,

No no no! You got him, now you have to keep him. You can’t back out now!

SquirtleHermit ,

got 'em!

surewhynotlem ,

Dig in harder. Changing your mind means you’re weak/woke.

jimbolauski ,

Waiting for more details is digging in harder? I’m just not the kind of person that will get hysterical over a clickbate headline.

surewhynotlem ,

If you’re waiting for more details about cops being horrible in the US, you ar have either dug into the opposite opinion, or have managed to avoid (intentionally or otherwise) a whole lot of data.

But it’s a good guess to assume the former.

jimbolauski ,

I’m waiting for details on this case. Did the cop have a legitimate reason to pull over Leonard Cure, did he have a reason to arrest him. The article claims Lenard resisted and continued going after the cop after he was tased but I have not seen any evidence.

I wonder why you get so worked up about someone wanting more info instead of blindly following a narrative.

surewhynotlem ,

Well, let me ask…

When was the last news story where you went back, got the details later, and felt the cops used too much force and deserved to be punished?

jimbolauski ,

I mostly member outcome of the cases not the details that were presented when I initially read about it.

The Jordan Edwards case comes to mind, police shot him as he was driving away, they initially claimed he was reversing twords them. Footage releases later proved otherwise.

There was a case of a kid getting shot because he went to put something behind his car to stop it from rolling back and hitting the cops behind him.

jimbolauski ,

Now that I have seen the evidence, Cure driving 100mph and attacking the officer I find it hard to fault the officers actions. Has your opinion changed now that the videos have been released?

surewhynotlem ,

No. Cops have the obligation to deescalate, and he failed. Running away does not mean you need to be tased when you finally do choose to comply.

Short of a suspect pulling a knife or a gun on the cop, or actively moving to harm another person, there’s no instance where I see lethal force as appropriate force.

Being guilty of speeding, fleeing, resisting arrest, it even punching a cop in the face, should not be a death sentence.

jimbolauski ,

I see you haven’t watched the video, Cure didn’t run away he came after the cop. The cop only shot him after he was being choked against the back of Cure’s truck.

surewhynotlem ,

I meant when he fled in the car

jimbolauski ,

He didn’t flee in his truck. He blew by a cop in the fast lane then pulled over to the right when the cop got behind him with his lights on.

HughJanus ,

DONT ASK QUESTIONS JUST BE ANGRY

havokdj ,

only racist cops in the south

So we just gonna act like Chicago/Detroit/NY PD doesn’t exist?

toasteecup ,

If you’d like to discuss with me, I generally prefer people don’t try to imply that I’m saying something.

havokdj ,

All I’m saying is that you make it seem like the south is the only place with racist law enforcement, it’s not.

Law enforcement is racist. Laws are geared against minorities, this is a rule of fact everywhere in the US.

toasteecup ,

As I said, you’re making implications and reading much more into it than I intended. What I said was exactly what I meant, nothing more nothing less.

As I said, I prefer people try not to imply I’m saying something given you didn’t listen for the 2nd chance I see no reason for continue the conversation. Have a good one.

havokdj ,

You’re feigning ignorance, please stop.

After all, ignorance is no excuse for the law.

toasteecup ,

Yet again, you continue to assume and make an ass of yourself and me. So allow me to be clear, I’m asking you to fuck off.

You’re being a dick so now I’ll insist, go shove your opinion back up your ass and get fucked.

Come back when you learn how to listen without assumption.

havokdj ,

wah, wah police are only bad in the south

ur being mean, ON THE INTERNET

You can shove your opinion (your actual opinion, what I stated about law enforcement is not opinion) up your ass as well, especially since you’re going to generalize half a country based on the actions of the shitty few. There are shitty people everywhere, and you seem to be one of them, you bitter piece of shit.

toasteecup ,

Lol says the guy who would rather have a conversation with what he thinks other people are saying than listen to them.

Toodles dipshit.

havokdj ,

Oh really then? What exactly IS it that you’re saying?

zzzzz ,

“I can only imagine what it’s like to know your son is innocent and watch him be sentenced to life in prison, to be exonerated and … then be told that once he’s been freed, he’s been shot dead,” Miller said. “I can’t imagine as a parent what that feels like.”

Pretty tragic.

chase_what_matters , (edited )

This story is fucked. He was wrongfully convicted and then set free, gets $800k compensation in August, then pulled over (looks like they’re still coming up with a reason for pulling him over), threatened I’m sure with more jail (essentially provoked), tased then shot.

I think some fucking cops were after him and pissed that the dude got paid.

Video link from a comment below. Not a good look for the guy. Hard video to watch.

www.youtube.com/watch?v=7GrcptVf8Yk

foggy ,

And the alleged ‘good cops’ are out here confused why no one respects them.

be_excellent_to_each_other ,
@be_excellent_to_each_other@kbin.social avatar

And the alleged ‘good cops’ are out here confused why no one respects them.

Until I start running across evidence that some police are angrier about the bad cops than they are about everyone else being angry about the bad cops, I refuse to believe they exist.

foggy ,

I’m still tickled that they have chose the idiom “a few bad apples” to describe the situation.

Like… Y’all aware the full idiom is “A few bad apples spoils the whole bunch.”?

chase_what_matters ,

As someone who knows an actual good cop (grew up with him): they quit. That’s all they can do. Because speaking up just ruins your career path. So they choose to go along or they change careers entirely.

Cryophilia ,

We had a “good cop” DA in my city. The cops went on strike (though they didn’t call it a strike, they just stopped doing their jobs), and started a propaganda campaign. When crime went up, people are stupid and blamed the DA. He got recalled and a police bootlicker got put in instead.

JokeDeity ,

I’ll bet the crime rate didn’t even go up, it’s a really easy number to fabricate because no one’s looking for the evidence to back it up.

jscummy ,

We had a good DA in my city, he ended up getting killed by some billionaire vigilante who went after the police commissioners family

Cryophilia ,

Man, I don’t know why everyone in that city is so serious

vivadanang ,

paying their union dues, which keep going up because the defense of their fellow cop’s actions are expensive… if they get caught and lose qualified immunity.

rishado ,

Good cops don’t exist lmao

arin ,

Public execution because of jealousy? And nothing will happen to the cops?

lolcatnip ,

USA! USA!

kboy101222 ,

Best nation in the world baby!

Palerider ,
@Palerider@feddit.uk avatar

Well of course! If you ask a Yank they’d say that USA is the world…

girlfreddy ,
@girlfreddy@lemmy.world avatar

Only if you’re white.

Black and Brown people don’t enjoy the same benefits.

lolcatnip ,

Not even then. Maybe if you’re white and rich; lots of rich white foreigners settle here, and they could go anywhere they want.

Cryophilia ,

I see you don’t understand sarcasm

shuzuko ,

Oh, I see the problem. You’ve written black and brown people.

You should know by now that they don’t count as people unless they go through a very rigorous “personhood” check, with markers such as “will they stay quiet about racism,” “will they strive to emulate rich white people in dress, speech and manner, to the detriment of their own culture,” “will they lead fully sanitized lives as wage slaves without complaint and never dabble in white collar or petty crimes that would be ignored if their skin was lighter,” and “will they silently and happily vote for rich white capitalists in politics, against their best interest”. Because clearly if they can’t follow these very generous and simple guidelines, they don’t want to be considered people, duh.

Fuck I feel dirty having typed that out.

Sir_Kevin ,
@Sir_Kevin@lemmy.dbzer0.com avatar

The police will do a full investigation of themselves and find no wrong doing. After that, the murderer will return from his paid vacation, which will allow his wife for some much needed time to recover.

BlackPenguins ,

I really wish Batman was real these days.

agent_flounder ,
@agent_flounder@lemmy.world avatar

Their Reason: Driving While Black

TryingToEscapeTarkov ,

I always joke with my black girlfriend when she driving. I’ll say “Be careful you don’t want to get pulled over for a DWB”. She laughs, I laugh, we both die a little inside.

Cryophilia ,

When I was younger, I worked under a Black man driving trucks through Louisiana, Arkansas, and Texas. Anywhere rural, it was unofficial company policy that I (a white man) was supposed to drive and pretend to be in charge. Anywhere urban, my actual boss could be himself.

It is so incredibly fucked up.

abraxas ,

My local department of family services very openly teaches about the risk of police violence towards black people and those who adopt them, to make up for the education they would receive from black parents on how to avoid being beaten or murdered by cops.

It’s so real part of our government formally acknowledges it. While the other part wins “most racist” awards.

ZeroCool ,

gets $800k compensation in August

Ok so this whole story is fucked up beyond belief but I just want to take a minute to say holy shit, because that dollar figure is pretty messed up in and of itself. They gave him $817k. That’s $5.82/hr.

chase_what_matters ,

Yeah could be better but I do love that Ron desantis had to sign that shit.

JokeDeity ,

Eh. We always like to think that this stuff bothers them. It doesn’t. He didn’t think twice about it. I’m sorry to paint with a broad brush, but conservatives just do not think on the same level as normal people do. They aren’t bothered by this stuff because they don’t think about any subject long enough to have deep thoughts on them. Frankly, they wouldn’t even be such an angry frothing-at-the-mouth group of people if they didn’t have all variations of media avenues telling them what to be mad about every second of every day. If not for conservative media, they’d be relatively pleasant little dipshits doing manual labor and whatever other grunt work, but instead we have this failed experiment of a nation.

chiliedogg ,

Minimum wage plus overtime for his time in prison placed monthly into a mutual fund with 7% return for 16 years would be a little over 2.5 million dollars.

Tavarin ,
@Tavarin@lemmy.ca avatar

No, you see they subtracted room and board from him, that’s why he only got $800k.

ZombiFrancis ,

It may have also incensed the police doing the slaying that he got any money, let alone out of prison.

Wilibus ,

Or $51k/yr which is representative of what he could have earned.

Certainly doesn’t excuse the wrongful conviction but their math is a little more in tune with reality than $819k divided by (16x24x365) equals OMG.

Iamdanno ,

Until the police departments, or their unions, start paying the settlements, then the amounts don’t even matter punitively

Wilibus ,

Huh?

Iamdanno ,

It doesn’t any good to “punish” the police by awarding large sums of money to the wrongly convicted, because the taxpayers pay for it. To really add some justice, the awards should Come from the police pension funds. Then they are Incentivized to do it right. Now they don’t care, because there is little downside for them

Guntrigger ,

Isn’t this basically what happened with the Making a Murderer guy? He was due a huge settlement from being wrongfully convicted, so they planted a bunch of evidence to put him back in jail instead.

chase_what_matters ,

Haven’t seen it but that sounds fucked too

CmdrShepard ,

That was my takeaway. The more fucked up part is that they dragged his nephew into it and at each man’s trial, told wildly differing stories about how the murder supposedly occurred.

namelessdread , (edited )

The police were definitely corrupt, but that documentary is intentionally misleading.

While some evidence may be in question, it’s important to know that Teresa Halbach’s vehicle was found on the property, along with charred pieces of her human bones in a burn pit.

It was the last place she went, the last place she was seen, and Avery lured here there under false pretenses (Teresa was not even supposed to be meeting with Avery).

None of this excuses any bad behaviors by the police, and that department certainly appears to be corrupt, but probably not a good example for this instance.

abraxas ,

it’s important to know that Teresa Halbach’s vehicle was found on the property, along with charred pieces of her bones in a burn pit.

Police corruption is the problem. Her vehicle being on the edge of his fairly large property is a lot less damning if it weren’t for Steven’s blood being reported in the vehicle. There were witnesses who claim to have seen it moved there, even if Zellner cannot seem to decide who moved it.

And you say “her bones”, but there’s two problems with that. The bones have been confirmed to be human female, but they couldn’t confirm or deny they were Halbach’s. And there’s a compelling reason to believe they were not burned in the burn barrel they were found.

There seem to be two real possibilities in his case. EITHER it’s a fairly ridiculous frame-up job or he’s guilty. That should be easy because of the question “why would anyone go to THOSE lengths to frame Steven Avery?” It’s not easy because the open animosity and bad-faith of thep olice in this case is compelling.

I think he likely did it, but I genuinely think the case is so tainted, he should not have been convicted.

namelessdread ,

Huh, I could’ve sworn I had read that the DNA was confirmed to be hers. After looking more thoroughly you’re absolutely correct. I did see a few articles that said it was matched via a partial tooth, but looking deeper into that it looks like the findings may have just been “consistent” with Halbach. Still compelling evidence, but not a direct DNA match.

I also think it’s more than likely he did it, but that’s an important clarification.

abraxas , (edited )

It’s a really complex case. And just like the Depp v Heard documentary, Netflix didn’t do it justice. Sometimes exaggerations make the validity of a claim harder to see. Judges don’t like to offer mistrials or retrials to people they are convinced are guilty, whether the appeal was valid or not.

From my own (very ameteur) independent reading, there’s a few big things that should’ve been slam-dunk for vacated verdict, and his attorney colluding with the prosecutor to have him interrogated unassisted is the top of the list, though Avery lost appeal on that already. Brendan Dassey had perhaps the strongest case to vacate verdict I’ve ever seen short of exoneration, and his eventually failed (after a very reasonable appeal verdict in his favor).

EDIT: I’d also like to note that Netflix’s exaggeration has led to anti-Avery people who also exaggerate the case against him. People like Kathleen Zellner don’t get involved in cases that are strong or clean. At the very least, a good lawyer would have a cakewalk winning the Reasonable Doubt standard and arguably would have with only the limited evidence that was available during his first trial. It’s that exoneration cases are so hard, understandably so.

The hardest ethical question regarding law I think ask is this. If a person is guilty of a crime but can only be convicted by illegal and unethical behavior, should they be incarcerated? I’ve always thought we’ve allowed the “be certain they’re guilty” standard to erode too much in the US between jurors who will convict on “I’m pretty sure” and the Federal Habeas Corpus changes.

I mean, if you boil it down, Steven Avery is arguably in prison today not because he might have committed murder but because he filed his Habeas Corpus appeal without the assistance of a lawyer and is forbidden to file another. And Brendon Dassey is definitely in prison because the current standard for that federal Habeas Corpus appeal is “no reasonable judge would ever rule this way” despite 2 reasonable federal judges agreeing he reached that standard. Hearing the appeal audio is chilling, with one of the judges constantly saying “you know we MUST reject this” without actually listening to the argument.

namelessdread ,

It’s certainly very complex. I definitely agree he didn’t get a fair treatment or trial and for that reason alone shouldn’t be incarcerated

I also think that the Netflix documentary really skewed the view and understanding of the evidence, though. And, as you note, there can be confusion over what level of certainty a jury needs to reach. Beyond a reasonable doubt, not beyond any doubt.

All this being said, it bothers me to some degree that people will go to great lengths to fight for Avery’s innocence, largely due to that documentary, when there are others whose cases are much more questionable and deserve attention too, such as Temujin Kensu.

I just hope that people, upon seeing documentaries (or really any information that drives them to a certain decision or thought, particularly based on an emotional response), would do further research.

abraxas ,

And, as you note, there can be confusion over what level of certainty a jury needs to reach. Beyond a reasonable doubt, not beyond any doubt

Here’s the Ninth Circuit opinion on reasonable doubt: “A reasonable doubt is a doubt based upon reason and common sense and is not based purely on speculation”. A single “I don’t know”, a single seemingly-minor inconsistency, a singular whiff of incompetence by the defense council. More complicatedly, a single defense line of questioning that gets suppressed (which, maybe a juror is supposed to disregard, but being told to disregard something favorable to the defense at all is something that gets my “common sense” aware)

There’s a gap between reasonable doubt and doubt, but it’s a lot narrower than the gap between reasonable doubt and preponderance of evidence. If the phrase “probably did it” shows up in deliberation, that should be the moment everyone stops and agrees to a “not guilty” verdict because of the “probably”.

All this being said, it bothers me to some degree that people will go to great lengths to fight for Avery’s innocence

He’s an Innocence Project exoneree who, as you just agreed, was railroaded again. I’d like to point out that Netflix didn’t lead the publicity about him, they just profited from it. And the truth is, there’s enough inconsistency with the prosecution’s case that “probably did it” is honestly a bit strong and I vacillate between thinking he did it and that he’s innocent because as bad as it looked for him, there were a couple stronger suspects that didn’t have alibis. The only reason I’m not “team innocence” is the physical evidence, but even I have to admit it’s evidence that prosecution couldn’t form a cohesive narrative for but defense could.

Coincidentally, I watched a “Police Accountability” video just yesterday that matches the Defense story of this trial almost perfectly. Small car (let’s say house), they keep searching for something and fail to find it… Then you hear them panicking that this is going to blow back if they don’t find something. And then the cop plants a little marijuana thinking the angle on his body-cam won’t catch it, and it only barely does. There are inconsistencies with how they discovered the only physical evidence that directly ties Steven Avery to the homicide (the bones weren’t a smoking gun), evidence that is so weird it doesn’t create a sensible story.

Both Lenk and Colborn are described like they had nothing against Avery, but both were caught in the exoneration crossfire, and their behavior could have prevented Avery from being convicted of the original rape.

See, there I go again. Just talking to you and remembering my own independent research about the whole key-and-blood situation, I’m leaning towards actually innocent again. I’ll probably flop back the other way shortly. But that’s why it’s a complicated case. Netflix never shows both sides of everything. And FWIW, all the evidence we’ve been discussing is divulged in the Netflix documentary.

phoenixz ,

I think some fucking cops were after him and pissed that the dude got paid.

Stop making up shit. This is tragic enough without people fantasising about the how’s and what’s.

chase_what_matters ,

That’s why I said “I think” instead of stating it as fact. Sus is sus.

Schadrach ,

www.youtube.com/watch?v=7GrcptVf8Yk

Dash and body cam footage of the incident. They didn’t need to retroactively come up with a reason for pulling him over, it’s right there in the footage - he apparently was speeding at 100 mph.

chase_what_matters ,

Edited my comment, thanks. Very difficult to watch. I don’t love the way the interaction was handled by either of the men, though. I understand speeding is dangerous and against the law, but he began the interaction at 11. This could have gone another way, despite the apparent mental health issues the dude was clearly dealing with.

Schadrach ,

I don’t love the way the interaction was handled by either of the men, though. I understand speeding is dangerous and against the law, but he began the interaction at 11.

Agreed. The cop started out at 11, and the guy started out openly hostile.

It could have gone another way, but the moment the dude attacked the officer it wasn’t going to.

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