The only thing more surprising than this monument’s existence is the fact that it took thirty years for people to actually notice and start making an issue of it.
Also, it’s a monument to Ukrainian soldiers who fought for the German endorsed military of Ukraine, serving with the SS. It’s a more complex story than just celebrating Nazi collaboration, because while they were definitely collaborators with the Nazis, they were doing so because they wanted a free and independent Ukraine and wanted to fight the USSR.
So, they’re recognizing these soldiers because they fought for Ukrainian independence, not because the people supporting Ukrainian independence at the time were the Germans.
To be clear a lot of the Ukrainians serving in those units were aligned intellectually with the Nazis. It’s a complex story, you know. Not all a good one.
I had no idea Ukraine’s history until Moscow invaded them over a year ago. Since then I’ve learned a lot about Ukrainian history, which helps immensely provide better context in an area I otherwise would know very little. Still not an expert, but when you know more of the complexities like you mentioned, it helps to show the bigger picture so things end up making more sense. Thanks again.
It’s like Americans celebrating the people who founded that country, even the slaveowners. They’re not celebrating that part of the life of the founders, and it certainly colors the perception of people like Thomas Jefferson, speaking noble ideals about freedom while owning and sometimes raping his slaves.
These are people who fought for Ukrainian independence. That’s something to celebrate, even if it’s tainted by who they fought for and with, and at times, what their personal beliefs were surrounding issues like race and religion.
This is a complicated historical topic to Ukrainians. It’s not them celebrating Nazi collaboration.
I’ve met plenty of Ukrainians, it’s literally too common (notably more than for Russians in general, which is already an achievement) for them to ascribe personal traits to genes and thus characterize whole peoples as good or bad (I’m not doing that now, cause I’m talking about society and education). I mean, really, it irritates you.
The issue is that their idea of nationalism is not yet separate from typical Nazi one. Just much more moderate. It shows in various more nuanced conversations on ethnic conflicts, state policies on minorities, centralism, civil rights etc.
They also willingly participated in mass murders of civilian population (Jewish and Polish). By “free and independent” the narrative also stuffs this.
So no, whoever put that there knew very well whom they are celebrating. They are just fine with ethnic cleansing for some perceived benefit of their nation.
Which can be shortened to “a memorial to Nazi collaborators”, which is the title.
Except they’re not celebrating Nazi collaboration. They’re recognizing people who fought and died for Ukrainian independence. However tainted that struggle is by the people they fought for and with, and even sometimes the actions of those armies, it’s not them celebrating or recognizing Nazi collaboration. It’s a recognition of the fight for independence.
To me, this is like recognizing Thomas Jefferson’s contributions to the founding of the US. Is someone who makes that recognition endorsing slavery and rape? No, they’re not. Because he’s a more complicated historical figure than just a random slaver and rapist, and it’s hard to tell the story of the foundation of the US without talking about his positive contributions.
I’m as anti-NAZI as the next guy, but I swear some people have no idea of the nuances of history. I am sure we will start to get a rash of people protesting against Finland soon. We sided with the Soviets because of the convenience of a common enemy, AFTER they had invaded and partitioned and annexed half of Poland right beside the NAZI Germany. The invasion of Poland is what kicked off WWII btw. After the war, the West almost immediately entered into the Cold War with the USSR.
I get it, this is an SS squad, and they contributed to atrocities of NAZI Germany, but I can understand some Ukrainians considering them to be freedom fighters against the Soviets, especially in 2023. It is also a memorial in a church cemetery, and not a statue of Lee in the middle of a town square. A debate is warranted, but I hope some people will learn a little bit more about how history is not black and white with the conversation.
This is about one particular unit with history of war crimes. Different national legions of Wehrmacht and even Waffen SS have different record. I’m aware of some not so bad.
but I can understand some Ukrainians considering them to be freedom fighters against the Soviets, especially in 2023
I can agree that some “forest brothers” in1960s really were freedom fighters. But these guys - sure as hell not.
And Zelenskyy agrees with you. Any part they had in torching Polish villages or other atrocities are horrendous.
To be honest, i am a bit conflcted about it all. This wasn’t a statue put up to help bolster segregation 100 years after the fact, and I just wanted to point out that the Ukrainian struggle for independence has been ongoing and real, regardless of how ugly it may look. It is stuff like this that is fueling the propaganda of Russian’s invasion as an attempt to de-nazify Ukraine.
It is stuff like this that is fueling the propaganda of Russian’s invasion as an attempt to de-nazify Ukraine.
Wanted to say that nah, that’s not really a working mechanism… But suppose some people buy it. What even then, we should just whitewash crimes because recognizing them may strengthen propaganda in some particular case?
Hope not, but de-nazifing Ukraine is still a prevalent talking point. It is also interesting to me this monument is only becoming an issue now.
War is hell and there are evils always perpetuated on both sides (and i hate both sides arguments! Sorry!). I do believe intentions are important too, especially as in war people usually need to choose between the lesser of evils, which again comes with their own perspective. Being told as a Ukrainian you would only “fight the Bolsheviks” seems like it could have seen as a pretty good deal, especially when combined with the naive thought that supporting the Nazi effort could lead to an independent Ukraine. Again, naive but understandable. When focused on that perspective, and with consideration that they were separated from much of the rest of the SS in being charged with war crimes, I am a little more sympathetic. How many towns and villages did the US burn in WWII and in other wars? Sherman’s March to the Sea? Should we tear down those memorials too? I’d rather not know some of the shit my father did in the Vietnam War on behalf of the US government, but I can’t bring myself to curse his service. He just married an amazing Ukrainian woman a few years ago too…
It’s easy to just jump to conclusions. No, don’t whitewash history, but having a more nuanced perspective I think is important. To be clear, I would be right there with a pitchfork if this was a monument to the Dirlewanger or Kaminski Brigades.
Finland was a democratic country that the Soviet Union invaded, and they cooperated with the later Nazi invasion of the Soviet Union.
That seems more akin to the US allying with Stalin against Germany. They were allies of strategic convenience and it didn’t mean that the US approved of Stalin, gulags, etc.
By contrast, this was a group in German- occupied Ukraine who enlisted in the literal SS. History isn’t black and white, but at best this is a very dark shade of grey.
I can’t say anything about Graeco-Catholic or just Catholic Ukrainians in the USA, but most Ukrainians from ex-USSR I’ve met celebrate both. They’re just kinda modest with the Nazi part, but they are fine with it, and see it as something naughty all big boys have done, not to boast about, but important. They do have a problem as a nation.
Everybody is blaming the driverless cars but who is blaming the ambulance for putting itself in that situation? A driverless car can’t be at fault, it always does what it should. Humans are the ones who make mistakes.
Does anybody actually like it when airBnB moves into their neighborhood? I had one try and move in next door. fortunately my city had a defacto ban in place (the permit basically means you have to be a hotel-level of operation to successfully get the permit.).
They were only in operation for two or three groups staying and it was a nightmare. Trash being thrown into my yard. Shitty party music until 3 am. idiots trying to drive home from a keggar. drunken fratboys trying to figure out how to use my brick smoker to grill their fucking hotdogs… because the fence wasn’t an obvious enough indication that maybe it was someone else’s property. idiots blocking my drive way. Drunken idiots trying to drive out to get…whatever…
Like, I could not imagine living with that constant barage of bullshit. the funny part was the host was pissed that we dared call the cops on their ‘guests’. (who then proceeded to piss off the cops with bullshit pseudo-lawyering.)
AirBNB was great back when it was just a viable means for finding a room in someone's house to crash for a few days. Then the profiteers found it and AirBNB sacrificed their entire reputation for short-sighted greed. Add with everything in the past 20 years
I used to be a host in nyc with two rooms in my place, and it was just that, profiteering ruining it for everyone. But before the LLCs, there were the hosts that just scaled l into becoming profiteerers. A lot of them started as regular hosts and simply found it much more lucrative to scale it to many units or entire buildings.
It was a fun experiment for a while, but I hated what it became as soon as Airbnb started marketing itself more aggressively. Once they shared listings with hotel aggregators, it was over, completely changing the type of clientele and turning it into a sort of Russian roulette, where one in six guests would do something that got me closer to quitting it altogether, which I did eventually.
Edit for clarity: I’m in favor of the current regulation.
I lived on the same floor as a couple Airbnbs for a while and it was the same way. Lots of trash and noise. More than the usual big city noise. Like bass cranked up at 3 am and they probably won’t hear if you try to knock.
For a while there was a steady stream of men coming in and out of one of the apartments. And a sign on the door that said something about massages.
Yes and no. Yes, officers can fill in as acting whatever, so the essential work still gets done, but acting positions also tend to be conservative in how they exercise that authority. But as the article mentions, there are also people stuck waiting for their nomination to be approved so they can actually relocate and take up the job. These people are currently in limbo while Tuberville is fucking around.
I get that “man bites dog” is more newsworthy, as they say. But can we stop a tick and internalize that a human driven car hit and killed someone, and we’re talking about how it’s the autonomous car’s fault for adding a slight delay!
Give me a break. An ambulance being stuck in traffic by idiot drivers is nothing new. The autonomous cars may even kill people at a rate we’re uncomfortable with. They’re still gonna be better than humans. Humans are terrible drivers. Autonomous cars can’t come soon enough, and yes, I say that even as someone who prefers transit. Don’t let perfect be the enemy of good.
the autonomous car’s fault for adding a slight delay!
And, as suggested with a summary apparently taken from video evidence, the only car blocking the route cleared the area as soon as it was able. … You know; like a human driver should (but, if you’ve ever seen the traffic to the tunnel in 07306 and heard the woop-wu-woop-woop DJ as he tries to remind drivers to GTFO of the way, you’d know they don’t).
“On August 14 two Cruise AVs encountered an active emergency scene at an intersection in which a pedestrian had been hit by a human driven car. The first vehicle promptly clears the area once the light turns green and the other stops in the lane to yield to first responders who are directing traffic. Throughout the entire duration the AV is stopped, traffic remains unblocked and flowing to the right of the AV,” Cruise said in a statement obtained by KRON-TV.
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