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ashok36 ,

Marijuana is not a gateway drug.

Having to deal with a drug dealer that wants to also sell you actually addictive drugs is the gateway.

Legalize pot, sell it at the grocery store, and you will watch the number of addicts in general fall precipitously. I guarantee it.

FlyingSquid OP ,
@FlyingSquid@lemmy.world avatar

Weird how cigarettes and alcohol are not ‘gateway drugs.’

Carighan ,
@Carighan@lemmy.world avatar

That’s because from a health perspective, alcohol in particular is an “end state drug”. It’s what you die with. It ruins you. Not as fast as heroine, but just as thoroughly.

Red_October ,

So if I just occasionally have a beer with dinner does that mean I could also enjoy a bit of light recreational heroine for dessert?

littlebluespark ,
@littlebluespark@lemmy.world avatar

light recreational heroine

The best dessert.

https://lemmy.world/pictrs/image/97f9c17e-3220-4e53-86f0-1c38149f7f71.gif

CanadaPlus ,

Yeah, I really wonder who writes these, and what their outlook on their job is. They have to know that the content has some pretty strong omissions or false inclusions there for political reasons.

IzzyScissor ,

Don’t forget shampoo!

My D.A.R.E. officer made sure we all knew that shampoo is a drug because it’s a chemical compound that physically affects our bodies. I definitely had fewer issues with drugs after learning that I was already a ‘drug user’.

funkless_eck ,

I had fewer issues with drugs after doing drugs, having a great time, feeling better the next morning than if I’d had 4 pints of beer.

RGB3x3 ,

That’s actually a pretty good way to think about it though. Drugs are just chemical compounds and different compounds have different effects on the body.

Are you sure that D.A.R.E officer was not secretly cool?

IzzyScissor ,

D.A.R.E. has been proven to increase drug use, so I don’t think it was just him. The entire ‘scare tactic’ just doesn’t work.

HelixDab2 ,

Having to deal with a drug dealer that wants to also sell you actually addictive drugs

Clearly marijuana has some serious kind of habituation, and it’s equally clear that many people that use marijuana are problem users. Addictive? No, not by any strict definition of addiction, since you won’t suffer serious adverse effects if you stop. OTOH, I’ve known at least as many problem marijuana users as problem drinkers

ashok36 ,

The question isn’t whether Marijuana is habit forming. Obviously for some percentage it is. The question is whether Marijuana use in and of itself encourages or preface additional drug use. My position is that it does not and by legalizing Marijuana we would find that it is the interaction with black market drug dealers which correlates instead.

HelixDab2 ,

The question is whether Marijuana use in and of itself encourages or preface additional drug use.

I would argue that in many ways it does. Marijuana is–or was–illegal. Alcohol is legal, but age restricted. If you are willing to use a substance that is (was) entirely illegal, you are more likely going to be willing to try other drugs that are legitimately addictive, because you’ve already crossed one of the major hurdles. If alcohol had been illegal for the same amount of time that marijuana had been, then I would agree that alcohol was likely a gateway drug as well.

I’m in favor of de-scheduling marijuana entirely. But I think that it’s disingenuous for people to act as though there weren’t serious problems with chronic and underage marijuana use.

HopingForBetter ,

After a quick search through us history, alcohol was banned around 1920 and lasted for about 13 years. The marijuana ban that we all know of happened, get this, in 1970, and states began pushing back only 3 years after. So, alcohol was banned far longer than marijuana. The d.a.r.e. campaigns and other propoganda coupled with the inability to do scientific studies on the drug created the mass panic. There were not serious problems, other than some politician needing a platform.

HelixDab2 ,

So, alcohol was banned far longer than marijuana.

…What? The 1970s were 50 years ago. And marijuana was illegal long before it was classified as a schedule 1 drug under the Comprehensive Drug Abuse Prevention and Control Act of 1970.

HopingForBetter ,

You’re going to have to provide some source for it being illegal. Arguably, it was contentious in the 30s, but the first official ruling was 1970.

It also seems like you don’t understand that it being banned 50 years ago is not the same as it being banned for 50 years.

It was banned in 1970, but 3 years after, states pushed back.

Alcohol was banned in 1920, and 13 years later, it was unbanned.

You are coming across as very emotional about this, but you are showing how little you have researched. I don’t have time to bring you up to speed if you are only going to keep your fingers in your ears while you shut your eyes and scream how right you are.

Have a good day.

HelixDab2 ,

It also seems like you don’t understand that it being banned 50 years ago is not the same as it being banned for 50 years.

Dude, it is literally illegal at the federal level at this very moment. If you use marijuana, and you buy a firearm, you are a felon. The ban may not be fully enforced in some states right now, but the feds can, at any moment, and on a whim, go into California and Colorado and arrest every single person working at a dispensary and charge them under federal drug trafficking laws, and send every single one of them to prison for life.

I would ask what you’re on, but I’m pretty sure I can guess.

Dasus ,

It was banned in 1970

You are coming across as very emotional about this, but you are showing how little you have researched.

Ironic.

1951-56:

Stricter Sentencing Laws

Enactment of federal laws (Boggs Act, 1952; Narcotics Control Act, 1956) which set mandatory sentences for drug-related offenses, including marijuana.

A first-offense marijuana possession carried a minimum sentence of 2-10 years with a fine of up to $20,000.

[www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/…/cron.html#:~:t…](https://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/shows/dope/etc/cron.html#:~:text=Enactment%20of%20federal%20laws%20(Boggs,fine%20of%20up%20to%20%2420%2C000).

Alcohol was banned in 1920, and 13 years later, it was unbanned.

The prohibition was protested long before it was finally repealed.

Uneven enforcement and the continued circulation of illegal alcohol led to widespread lawbreaking, corruption, and a nationwide backlash. Opposition to Prohibition by elected officials and grassroots organizations in New York, including Governor Al Smith, Congressman Fiorello La Guardia, and the Manhattan-based Women’s Organization for National Prohibition Reform (WONPR), increased throughout the 1920s.

www.mcny.org/exhibition/protesting-prohibition

HopingForBetter ,

You do realize that your providing sources for someone else who didn’t doesn’t make them less emotional, nor my original post “ironic” for not knowing your sources.

I stand by my original post, which was a cursory google search of us history.

Thanks for providing sources.

However, my ultimate point that it was never a gateway drug and bans were consistently protested remains.

Is your point that I’m wrong for not knowing everything because I said “Here’s what I found, stop being emotional and show me what you found.”?

Good day.

Dasus ,

I stand by my original post, which was a cursory google search of us history.

It wasn’t, or you’re horrible at it.

“when was weed made illegal” produces

…wikipedia.org/…/Legal_history_of_cannabis_in_the…

This

Which opens with

In the United States, increased restrictions and labeling of cannabis (legal term marijuana or marihuana) as a poison began in many states from 1906 onward, and outright prohibitions began in the 1920s. By the mid-1930s cannabis was regulated as a drug in every state, including 35 states that adopted the Uniform State Narcotic Drug Act.[1] The first national regulation was the Marihuana Tax Act of 1937.[2]

Which indeed makes your attempt to mock someone for poor research / knowledge very ironic indeed

IzzyScissor ,

You’re saying that it has nothing to do with marijuana itself that make it a gateway drug, only that we’ve made it illegal.

That means anything we make illegal is a ‘gateway X’.

Dasus ,

If you are willing to use a substance that is (was) entirely illegal, you are more likely going to be willing to try other drugs that are legitimately addictive, because you’ve already crossed one of the major hurdle

It’s honestly rather ludicrous to still see 60’s propaganda being parroted. You’re on the internet, dude. There’s no need for you to be that ignorant.

TK420 ,

I bet it’s a useful plant and that’s why people use it daily.

Oh, guess what, it’s time to take my meds, I’ll be back after a few bong hits before I go back to work.

CanadaPlus ,

I wonder what the stats in Canada look like now.

funkyfarmington ,

The “gateway drug” thing was a lie in 1985 and its a lie now.

chatokun ,

I buy THC drinks online from 3Chi. I haven’t had an urge to try anything harder (in fact, I’m a bit scared of anything that might affect my heart (aside from booze becaus3 we all do at least one very stupid thing), and the only thing I do want to try but only with a good support group around is shrooms).

Transporter_Room_3 ,
@Transporter_Room_3@startrek.website avatar

The people who blabber incessantly about weed being a gateway drug are the exact REASON that I agree with them, but we VERY much disagree on the specifics.

Think of it this way:

Every adult in your life has told you that weed is JUST AS BAD as heroin and cocain and meth. You hear it repeated ad nauseum, ESPECIALLY if you were in DARE.

Now one day someone you have known for a long time offers you some because “it’s not that bad, trust me you’ll be fine” and they go ahead and take a puff or twelve. Turns out it’s not that bad. They were fine after some initial uncoordinated attempts at doing something.

So if weed is this interesting, maybe heroin isn’t that bad either?

Yeah turns out heroin IS that bad, and lumping it in with weed is like tossing the kindergarten bully into a maxsec prison.

So yeah, it’s only a “gAtEwAy dRuG” because you fucks lied for decades and made false equivalence of things and taught kids they can’t trust you.

jordanlund ,
@jordanlund@lemmy.world avatar

Turned out, the gateway drug was tobacco…

www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC6754186/

Daft_ish ,

Arguably one of the worst drugs to be taking. Death is slow and agonizingly painful. The addiction is deep seeded. The high is very minor, like you see me going out on heroin you know I’ve experienced things your greatest orgasm could never compare too. Smoking, I got to like, stand outside for 5 mins at a time.

RGB3x3 ,

I’ve experienced things your greatest orgasm could never compare too.

But to anyone reading this, DO NOT DO HEROIN. It’s life-ruining. There’s that story of the guy on Reddit who decided to try it, and gave updates as it ruined his life. He stopped updating and people assume he’s just dead.

Seriously, heroin is some fucked up shit.

Kyatto ,
@Kyatto@leminal.space avatar

I looked it up to read it, harrowing but I don’t think he is dead. He posted a few years ago saying that the account is too much to log in on, from all the messages and I get that. I once made some posts/comments about being suicidal that got nowhere near the attention he got and I was getting DMs about it for years. I can’t imagine the stress of logging in to that account with how many mentions, DMs and comments it must receive, about a really really shitty time in your life.

RGB3x3 ,

www.reddit.com/user/…/its_been_a_while/?context=3

Oh well would you look at that. Good for him, says he’s been clean.

Iceblade02 ,

/u/SpontaneousH

Archived that shit - read it when I was a teen and it convinced me to stay far away from drugs and addiction.

tourist ,
@tourist@lemmy.world avatar

While drunk, I got insane cravings for cocaine and nicotine

While high, I get insane cravings for pizza and Tame Impala

Daft_ish ,

I just get hang overs.

Weed doesn’t hit like it use to. I think weed/stress and responsibility is a bad combo.

Daft_ish ,

I’ll agree but sooner or later everyone is going to make the leap its just a matter of how far they think the fall is.

Say we start thinking about weed the same way we think about alcohol now. Ok but there is molly, mushrooms, LSD, and ketamine that can all easily step into the space that weed had occupied. Say we discrimininlize all that too. Now people understand how mood altering substances work and aren’t afraid them. Does heroin seem more accessible now?

I’m not saying a tier system is good and maybe society is just fundamentally flawed in the way it thinks about mind altering substances. Some how though, we need to show people before they learn the hard way, that substance abuse has lasting adverse effects including death.

ricecake ,

What specifically stands out to you as a ridiculous bit of probaganda?

It’s certainly not the most accurate or clinical, and some of the categories are a bit “eh”, but nothing popped out to me that I would describe so strongly.

If nothing else, it’s a lot more objective and grounded in reality than what they gave me in that dumb dare program. Might be why my reaction is just “close enough”.

Freestylesno ,

Yeah I was thinking the same thing. It’s close enough for the target audience. Doesn’t go the any extreme.

LodeMike ,

Marijuana being a gateway drug.

sin_free_for_00_days ,

That was the only thing that popped out to me.

Jarix ,

I mean that’s been a “thing” since at least the late 80s. Not that i think its accurate but its all too common an opinion you will find that isnt completely batshit crazy.

sin_free_for_00_days ,

DARE came to my HS in the mid-late 80s. A cop was standing at a table with various things on it. One of which was a big bag of weed. I said,“Damn! That’s a big bag of weed!” The cop replied, totally seriously,“THAT’S ENOUGH WEED TO KILL YOU!!!” My friends and I just laughed and walked away.

ImplyingImplications ,

Also being the most abused drug. I’d say that would be caffeine. There are more people who take caffeine daily than cannabis. But this seems to be about “bad” drugs, not “good” drugs.

ricecake ,

I’d give it to alcohol, not caffeine personally. I wouldn’t say most people “abuse” caffeine, they just drink it.
Abuse to me implies having a negative impact, and I can think of more people who have been negatively impacted by weed than by caffeine, but way more from alcohol than either, and with a significantly more negative impact.

I know people who smoke too much and it’s definitely made them stagnate in life and gain a lot of weight.
I know people who drink way too much caffeine and get insomnia, leading to a cycle of discomfort and heartburn from all the coffee.
I know people who drank too much alcohol and died, or developed terrible health complications.

Most people are totally fine with all of them, but alcohol is easily the worst and most common.

ricecake ,

Yup, that’s a good one. Gateway drug notion is generally iffy at the absolute most generous.

This one wasn’t as “smoking the weed will make you do heroin and die” as others, just “some people do other things after doing this one”, but it’s still not super worth mentioning.

LodeMike ,

What are you supposed to do? Start with meth?

ricecake ,

Yeah, that’s the thought. That or ecstacy or something.
In reality, it’s mostly that it’s so common that everyone who might do “hard drugs” would have been exposed to pot as just background noise, like alcohol or chocolate ice cream.

It only gets a shade of credence because there have been studies indicating that some people start with pill based drugs and then just leave it at that with a “hard drug” incidence rate lower than someone who smoked pot.
The sample sizes are so small that the only real conclusion someone can draw is that it’s not definitely false and it needs more study. But it’s not that important, so funding is slow and unlikely.

LodeMike ,

Yeah my bullshit detector is going off for the pills thing as well. The fact that they’re pills (small, compact, no smoking/smell) would skew it heavily.

ricecake ,

It is funny to picture the hypothetical person they need to find to interview for the data though.

This is Larry.
Larry once took a Valium he wasn’t prescribed at a friend’s house, but Larry respects his body too much to smoke weed.
Larry is addicted to intravenous heroin.

LodeMike ,

Larry takes the L

warlaan ,

It doesn’t say that I’m the text. It literally says that it is CALLED a gateway drug because of what SOME people do.

ParabolicMotion ,

I agree, but I don’t think D.A.R.E. was dumb. It was just difficult to hear the personal opinions that officers had of people who had been on particular drugs that are so often used in a hospital setting. Between the time I was an infant to the time I was ten, I had already been hospitalized for various illnesses and injuries that sometimes required hospital grade medications. Try telling a third grade kid that she is a bad person because the hospital put her on intravenous pain medication after having both her radius and ulna completely broken in a fall from the school’s playground equipment.

On a side note, after so many hospitalizations in my life, I absolutely hate people who use drugs for fun.

MutilationWave ,

Mind your own business and you’ll have a happier life, less hateful.

ParabolicMotion ,

It’s everyone’s business when some recreational drug user makes bad choices that impact the lives of others.

bane_killgrind ,

Nah it was everyone's business before that. People "drink responsibly". They can and do imbibe other drugs responsibly.

Dasus ,

And it’s everyone’s business that people like you make drug reform impossible, because all the science agrees that the only way to solve “the drug problem” is to legalise and regulate everything.

You’re suffering from the same bias that transphobes who say “I can always spot trans people” do; you’re simply unaware of how blindingly ignorant you are of the reality of the situation.

ParabolicMotion ,

No, as someone who has had many of the medical drugs they discuss in D.A.R.E., I wouldn’t compare myself to some cis gendered person who happens to be transphobic. That would be comparing opposites. I’m a person who has been given morphine several times in surgery, and after hemorrhaging in labor. I don’t think the government should legalize recreational use of morphine and regulate it. That seems dumb to me. D.A.R.E. doesn’t seem dumb. Sorry if you feel differently, but I don’t think we should legalize all drugs. You might argue for different drugs being legalized. I don’t want people that hate me to be allowed to carry drugs that they might put into my food order at a restaurant, either. You can’t assume that people who want to legally carry, or keep, drugs want to do so for personal use. It isn’t safe to have people carrying drugs on them that can be used to poison others. Not everyone who is into drugs is looking to party with you. Some are looking to get rid of people.

Dasus ,

“They’ve given me opiates in a medical setting so that’s why I know recreational drugs are bad for society”

So, to reiterate, exactly your type of intelligently stupid willfull ignorance is one of the main reasons that we have so many drug problems. If people like you weren’t brainwashed so easily, if you actually spent even a tiny bit of time looking into this subject, you’d realise you’re wrong. But you won’t. You won’t.

I’ve argued about this longer than most of Lemmy users have been alive. I know all the science. I bet you know none of it.

Drug prohibition does not work and anyone who supports it is either ignorant or directly benefitting from the illegal drug trade. That’s it. There’s no other alternatives. There is not a single logical reason to keep the prohibition according to science. Everything improves with proper legal frameworks in which to sell the drugs that clearly can not be effectively banned.

This isn’t about “feelings”. It’s about cold facts. And the fact is that by your rhetoric, by your behaviour, you’re indirectly enabling drug abuse and all the heinous shit that cartels get up to. That is unless you’re willing to admit you’re wrong and start supporting a complete reformation of this inane law. That’s the only moral position.

It isn’t safe to have people carrying drugs on them that can be used to poison others.

These are the types of weird fantasy scenarios you have to make up and it still doesn’t even work, in the slightest. There are a dozen more dangerous chemicals in everyone’s cleaning cupboard than anything you’d find sold as a recreational substance. Why aren’t they banned? Why are people allowed to handle gasoline by themselves? You know you could torch people with gasoline, right? And we allow people to drive around in metal hunks filled with gas, as incredibly velocities? You know you can die just from falling down, right? You walk on the street, every day. Anyone could push you and with bad luck, kill you.

People like you honestly never stop to think about the things you say. They make absolutely no sense. And it doesn’t matter to you that you can’t make a single thing make sense when you’re trying to defend the drug prohibition. No… it’s just been stamped to your brain that “DRUGS = WRONG” and you don’t have the cognitive capability to question that.

Here, have a listen to what a former police officer who used to infiltrate drug gangs has to say about the war on drugs: youtu.be/y_TV4GuXFoA?si=SXdIKIP1ON43N594&t=716 (Hint: his memoir is called “Good Cop, Bad War”)

There is literally no other option than to have a properly managed and regulated legal trade of these recreational substances. To keep the situation were currently in, willfully, is to willfully endanger lives, perpetuate drug ABUSE (not use, which is different) and to support criminal gangs which don’t give a fuck about anyone.

Oh right, that copper is just one guy. Hmm how about globalcommissionondrugs.org/world-leaders-call-fo…

And I could literally paste studies and data here for several comments to max char limit and it still wouldn’t even make you question that maybe you should question your feelings on the matter in accordance with reality. I know it won’t, because I’ve had this exact same argument a million times, and it’s always the same. If you really wanted there to be less problems caused by drugs, you’d be in favour of legalising them, as backwards as it must sound to you. Because legalising is the only way to take the market out of the hands of the criminals, as the market will never, ever, ever, ever, EVER die.

ParabolicMotion ,

You think that would end the illegal drug trade? People can legally own guns. They are legal to own and we have regulations for owning them. Guess what is still traded on the black market, and moved by gangs for cash? Guns are. Legalizing drugs will not solve the problem. Instead, you will have food service workers carrying drugs like opium on them, without legal repercussions. You want a blueberry smoothie your ex is making for you on your next lunch break? I guess it depends on who that is making it, and how much they hate you. I would hope they chose a lifestyle that didn’t involve drugs. Hopefully, it wouldn’t be a drive-thru order for you. Wouldn’t want someone to get drugs in their food and then drive away while consuming it.

I don’t have to agree with you. I just see too many problems arising from legalizing all drugs, as you suggested.

Dasus ,

Just like I said. You won’t even question your attitude, despite the overwhelming objective evidence that you’re wrong, despite everyone in the drug trade admitting to this, despite world leaders calling for legalisation. See what I mean when I say that it’s people like you who are responsible for the horrible drug situation that we have? That amount of willful ignorance is literally harmful to society.

Where exactly do you think the guns come from? From legal manufacturers. Comparing guns to drugs is appealing because they seem so similar, yet they both have the exact same solution: regulation.

The US doesn’t regulate drugs, and it doesn’t really regulate guns at all either. In other countries, black markets for guns are ridiculously negligible. They exist, sure, but they’re ridiculously small compared to the US and the Americas in general. Perhaps because the US has a military-industrial complex. Again, about what makes money for people.

The only way to properly implement regulation to guns is to have proper gun laws, which most other countries have. The US is a massive outlier in gun-violence, exactly because of the lack of regulation.

The argument is also disingenuous because there’s only violent uses for guns, but the same doesn’t apply for recreational substances. Show me one larger culture group of humans that don’t have some sort of recreational way to get their buzz on. Might take you a moment. But to point out a culture which doesn’t have guns at all, or at least nearly to the level the US does? Pick a map and throw a dart on it, you’ll more than likely land on an example.

Legalizing drugs will not solve the problem. Instead, you will have food service workers carrying drugs like opium on them, without legal repercussions

This is exactly what I mean. You have absolutely no idea what you’re talking about, so you make these asinine arguments that were brainwashed into you. So what if your waiter has a pinch of opium in his pocket? Alcohol is legal. Waiters carry alcohol all the time, for work even. Why doesn’t that bother you? Is it perhaps because it’s not cool to drink on the job? Would legalising drugs make it so that it’s socially acceptable to be fucking smashed at work? I’ve heard a ton of variations of this moronic bs “argument.” “*B-B-Bbut if we legalise drugs, I’ll have to worry about my surgeon being high when he’s performing surgery” “I don’t want to have to be piloted by some junkie scum” Like… when did you last meet a drunk pilot? A drunk surgeon? A surgeon who’s high? They have constant access to high grade narcotics, you know. Again, exactly what I meant, saying that you have to make up these fantasy scenarios which would never ever happen and even then the logic doesn’t even work.

You should ask yourself why was the prohibition of alcohol repealed. Googling that you might come upon names like “Al Capone” and even something as familiar as “Machine Gun Kelly”, but this one isn’t about the rapper. (Shortly: organised crime got so out of hand and the toxicity of homemade booze and even government poisoned booze that it was insane and the situation couldn’t be continued without society falling apart.)

Legalising drugs makes them safer, gets them out of the hands of criminals, meaning taxes for the government, health for drug abusers, and less stigma for responsible drug users. Yes, we exist, much like gays did even back in the 50’s. They just weren’t talked about all that much, for some weird reason. It’s not even just about what good it will do. It’s also about personal liberty.

“I don’t have to agree with you.” No, you don’t, but this isn’t my opinion. This is reality. So you’re saying “I don’t have to agree with reality and objective facts.” Which is exactly what I said in the first place; willful ignorance.

You did exactly as I said you would, and protested loudly, but I bet you didn’t read a single one of those links or even watch the 5 second clip. There really aren’t any other options except being ignorant of the matter or directly benefitting from drugs being illegal. Those are the only two type of people who think prohibition should be maintained. And if you think “I don’t think they should be legalised but I don’t benefit from illegal drugs in any way” then you’re in the former group.

Dasus ,

Oh and yes, it would end illegal trade to the extent ending the prohibition of alcohol did.

I live in Finland and black market drugs are 1000x easier to get than black market alcohol. Or black market guns for that matter. Both exist, but not really.

Everyone knows someone who sells drugs of some sort. Most people’s definitely don’t know people who sell alcohol or drugs. Well, alcohol is slightly more common, but usually it’s just flogged tax free or even completely legally ordered in bulk from Germany and then sold to friends.

But yeah, the science is in and yes, legalising drugs would kill the illegal drug trade.

Jimmycrackcrack ,

Given your experience and the way they made you feel from the practitioners’ sheer ignorant and biased approach I would have thought you’d definitely be the first to call the program “dumb” as the very least of the criticisms to be levelled at it.

ParabolicMotion ,

I don’t think it was dumb to educate children about the dangers of drug abuse. What I think is dumb, is the new program they have created to replace D.A.R.E. That program has representatives that stand outside of stores, pestering shoppers for donations, and when the shoppers decline, the representatives say things like, “guess you choose drugs!” while fake coughing to mask their remarks. That’s immature and unprofessional. D.A.R.E. was more professional.

Jimmycrackcrack ,

I think my surprise here is that given the program’s reputation, and your experience with it, it seems there was quite some gulf between theoretical intent and practice. Educating children about drugs, probably seems relatively uncontroversial to most, I think you could get a lot of people with otherwise pretty different views on drugs to get behind the idea. The way the D.A.R.E. program went about it and the content of the program and the accuracy of the education they attempted to deliver seem from a distance to have been very questionable. This is why it’s so perplexing to me why you hold such a surprising level of respect for D.A.R.E., I mean sure the intent could have been education, but it doesn’t sound very much like the intent and the reality had a lot of overlap. I’m careful with my wording here because where I grew up we didn’t have ‘D.A.R.E.’ specifically so I can only form judgment based on what one hears and reads about the program.

ParabolicMotion ,

Well, I had D.A.R.E., and unless someone put something in my food, or stuck me with something, I haven’t used illegal recreational drugs. I say illegal recreational drugs, because I can’t be held responsible for what the hospitals have given me in surgeries, and during labor/delivery. I don’t blame D.A.R.E. for the things that have happened to me in my life.

ricecake ,

Wait, so you think dare wasn’t dumb, but you have specific negative memories associated with it mischarecterizing drug users due to your legitimate usage?
I would call a program that makes children feel bad for going to the doctor “dumb”.

Your dislike of people who use drugs because you went to the hospital a lot is quite strange. I’m not sure why those would be related.
Did they put you in the hospital, or make a police officer come to your school and tell you you were a bad person?

ParabolicMotion ,

D.A.R.E. never hurt me. Sorry it seems like the program did something abusive to you personally. You could always file a police report about it, if it was that bad. It’s not like the officers who led it were abusive drug users in our lives, sent to the classroom to beat us with belts, or closed fists. If your biggest gripe from childhood is a bunch of drug abuse resistance education officers, lecturing you for less than one hour, then you had a pretty privileged childhood.

ricecake ,

You’re making a lot of leaps there from me calling it “dumb”.

You’ll have to forgive me for thinking it made you uncomfortable, considering that’s what you said.

And none of that even touches where you get the connection between “I was in the hospital” and “I hate drug users”.

ParabolicMotion ,

D.A.R.E. pretty much defined all of the drugs and their side effects, so children could be educated about drugs. Nothing they said about types of drugs, their uses, or their side effects was medically incorrect. I don’t know why you’re calling it dumb.

I’m sorry, did you say YOU make me uncomfortable? Because putting words in my mouth does that. I didn’t say anything about being uncomfortable before that.

Hey look, if you want to say D.A.R.E. was dumb, and you would rather have a lifestyle that includes recreational drug use, who am I to stop you? I just think you would feel differently if you were in the hospital, for some surgery, or emergency, and had to have some of those drugs given to you intravenously. I doubt you’d go looking for more of them after an experience like that. You’d be looking for a garbage can to puke the next morning, and crying about having a splitting headache from hell. You’d be crying because you want to eat food, but can’t trust your stomach to handle it. Go have your “fun”, and denounce programs like D.A.R.E. Maybe you’ll feel differently if you find yourself in a hospital recovery room one day.

ricecake ,

It was just difficult to hear the personal opinions that officers had of people who had been on particular drugs that are so often used in a hospital setting.

Try telling a third grade kid that she is a bad person because the hospital put her on intravenous pain medication

Forgive me for thinking these phrases imply discomfort. I can only go by my life experiences, which led me to think that calling experiences “difficult”, or being called a “bad person” by an authority figure would be aptly described as at least “uncomfortable”.

Dare was dumb because it was an abject failure. Presenting information in the most alarmist possible context while being dry to the point that kids tune out any significant information is a terrible way to treat health education.

You have some very confusing issues tying your hospital experience to a personal judgement of people who use drugs.
Do you think that other people haven’t been to the hospital? Do you think that I haven’t been to the hospital? It’s not that uncommon. Hell, you mentioned breaking your arm falling off some playground equipment. I had the same injury as a child, except I also had a greenstick fracture in my humorous that I had to be put under to have corrected. I was so ill coming out of anesthesia that I remember it less fondly than the actual injury.

Jumping from a bad experience with intravenous pain killers to “I hate people” is weird. Those people didn’t have anything to do with it. Why do you hate them? Not understand? Sure, that would make sense. Find foolish? Totally get it. But hate? Why hate?
And why all drug users? What does a pothead have to do with it at all?

undercrust ,

The information in the hallucinogenic section about acid flashbacks is incorrect. This was a false rumour spread in the 70s to demonize the political opponents of Nixon.

ricecake ,

Hrm, I always thought it was just a mis-name for PTSD after an excessive dose.

en.wikipedia.org/…/Hallucinogen_persisting_percep…

It looks like there’s at least a degree of clinical validation to it being a combo of PTSD and “sometimes colors stay funny for a while”.

Are you sure you’re not thinking of “the entire war on drugs, but particularly pot and heroin”?
That’s what I thought was an invention by the Nixon administration.

undercrust ,

Oh, HPPD is definitely a thing, but extraordinarily rare.

I may have misspoke about the brown acid - this was a legit warning resulting from “home-brew chemists” attempting to make their own LSD and failing to create it properly. Most of the supplies back then were direct from Sandoz (Novartis) and basically were being given away to the scientific community for novel testing. Fun stuff.

I’m talking about the hyperbole of “acid flashbacks” which was a narrative introduced to discourage and demonize LSD usage by the political and intellectual opponents of the Nixon administration. “Rots your brain permanently” and all that other garbage.

Turns out regular LSD usage by the “hippie” community and by many people involved in high-level education (particularly college and university professors) was making people feel more connected and empathetic towards one another, and that just didn’t do for the Republicans who needed everyone to fear “the other”.

What they also did with marijuana and heroin, and subsequently with crack cocaine, was truly abhorrent.

ShepherdPie ,

I agree too. Just the classifications alone seem close enough, and GHB is absolutely a ‘club’ drug that also happens to be a date rape drug. Back in my heyday, I knew several people that would use it recreationally when we’d go out to an EDM show (or in the hours after we got back to the crash pad to keep the party going).

I didn’t read the whole thing, so I can comment on specific content like ‘weed being a gateway’ drug, but that’s been disproven time and time again and this type of propaganda is common from schools and the government as they’re bound by archaic laws to portray drugs in such a way.

Rai ,

GHB is so fun.

ShepherdPie ,

I honestly never tried it simply because the connotations with it being the “date rape” drug (and also because I was already enjoying myself with other stuff).

Rai ,

Fair! It’s kinda like being a little drunk, but also REALLY horny for food (it makes food better than even weed does), and also reeeeally enhances sexual stuff. My partner and I would take it and get weeeeird.

If you’re active, you can stay active forever. GHBike Rides are fantastic.

If you’re laying around, you WILL fall asleep. Your brain will crave sleep more than a junkie craves heroin (fent now, I guess.)

MrTolkinghoen , (edited )

They put pcp alongside shrooms and LSD. That’s insane.

PsychedSy ,

Should be with GHB and DXM. Dissociatives are fun.

intensely_human ,

Seems mostly correct to me. What’s the problem with it?

cows_are_underrated ,

I think op doesn’t like how they are grouped. Weed has an own group, which is kinda stupid. I would classify it as a depressant. Also that they classify stuff like ecstasy and Ketamin and GHP AS “Club Drugs”. I mean yeah, they are quite common club drugs, but they are stimulants(or for Ketamine maybe a hypnotic).

Rai ,

Ketamine is a dissociative, like nitrous and PCP

GHB is a depressant.

Neither of them are stimulants or hypnotics.

Seraph ,
@Seraph@kbin.social avatar

It's better than D.A.R.E. which is what a lot of us got.

FlyingSquid OP ,
@FlyingSquid@lemmy.world avatar

I had D.A.R.E. and we also had “Officer Friendly” come to our elementary school and tell us all the ways drugs would kill us horrifically.

Rai ,

shnertin a faaat line in my D.A.R.E. shirt

ShepherdPie ,

I’d argue that it’s not better if they don’t get a sweet, ironic T-shirt to wear to the dispensary after the fact.

Shanedino ,

Where is the alcohol section that causes probably the most deaths per year?

FlyingSquid OP ,
@FlyingSquid@lemmy.world avatar

It was in a separate lesson, which was similarly filled with bullshit.

dual_sport_dork ,
@dual_sport_dork@lemmy.world avatar

I have never in my life heard anyone actually call weed “dope.”

“Dope” is heroin, and its derivatives and relations.

GregorGizeh ,

Yeah i only heard it called that ironically or as an in joke

pixelmeow ,
@pixelmeow@lemmy.world avatar

I heard it called that back around 1985.

Darkassassin07 ,
@Darkassassin07@lemmy.ca avatar

As in; when this was written…

bitchkat ,

I do all the time and my son makes fun of me for it. That’s how we rolled in the late 70’s/early 80’s

sin_free_for_00_days ,

Old crew checking in. I still call it dope, and get side eyed for it.

bisby ,

In pineapple express they call it “the dopest dope I ever smoked”… But I now realize that movie is almost 20 years old.

gila ,

Smokin’ on the finest dope, ay-ay-ay-ah

samus12345 ,
@samus12345@lemmy.world avatar

https://ih1.redbubble.net/image.3711306619.8006/ur,mounted_print_canvas_portrait_small_front,square,1000x1000.1.jpg

dezmd ,
@dezmd@lemmy.world avatar

Dope is 100% also used for weed. Maybe just less common for the younger gens.

Death_Equity ,

GHB and rufies are used recreationally, not just for date rape.

The purpose of drug education programs in schools is to scare kids, not to genuinely educate kids so they can make informed decisions in their own lives. They also can’t cover everything because the education system is fucked and drugs would require a semester to teach to an appropriate degree and serve harm reduction. They also need to not tell kids enough because it could backfire and make drugs seem interesting to try. Try making DMT not sound awesome.

LanternEverywhere , (edited )

The whole topic of drugs could easily be covered in 30 minutes. The only thing people under 18 need to know is this:

  1. There are a large variety of different recreational drugs, each of which make you feel a different way, and which come with their own set of different risks and benefits

  2. At some point when you're older it may be reasonable for you to try some particular drugs, but there are some drugs which are never safe for anyone at any age

  3. No drugs are safe for you to do yet. Your brain is still in a developing phase, and drugs that might be safe for you to do later will be very harmful to you at this age. Even though taking a drug might make you feel good in the very short term moment, it very likely could make your growing brain become depressed as soon as you come down from the drug, and this can become intense sadness that you feel for the rest of your life.

So for now just know that drugs is a complex topic that you can learn more about later when you're older, but for now the details don't matter because all drugs will be harmful to you right now while your brain is still growing

xePBMg9 ,

Or how about this:

The body is a super complex chemical eco-system. Messing with it is understandably super difficult, if you do not want to cause damage. All drugs have side effects. Known or otherwise. Using drugs for any reason is like throwing a funnily shaped wrench in to a factory you do not fully understand. It always causes problems. In medical science we try to figure out what type of wrench causes the least destruction while providing some benefit. We then weigh the benefits against the downsides. Leave these decisions to someone that has dedicated their life to this science. Let them make educated guesses for you. Instead of you just guessing. Generally, don’t use any drug unless you have to. Stop as soon as is recommended by your doctor. Assume that any drug you use, will have a permanent, accumulative detrimental effect on the body. Just to be safe.

Bizarroland ,
@Bizarroland@kbin.social avatar

It's kind of like in the 1800s they believed that human beings could never generate enough pollutants to actually affect the Earth. There are intelligent opinions statements saying that the Earth was simply too large for anything a mere handful of 100 million humans could do to leave any lasting impact on.

Of course, they had no idea that we would swell to 8 billion humans or that the industrial revolution would take off quite so well as it did, but even today there are many people who believe that nothing that they individually do can leave any type of lasting ecological impact, positive or negative.

And because of that you have bum fuck HVAC technicians venting refrigerants into the atmosphere willy-nilly and assholes driving down the street throwing lit cigarette butts out in the middle of a drought and people just dumping their trash wherever they find an opportunity to dump it.

I said all of that to say that it's probably likely that even minor usage of drugs cause effects that are at best difficult to quantify. I don't think getting high one time is going to be the differentiation between a homeless bum and a Nobel Peace prize winner, but it might be the difference between someone who works a career and earns at their best $250,000 a year and someone who works a career and earns at their best $80,000 a year.

Monstera ,

2.1 before you do try something, find out how to test for contaminants/counterfeits. You don’t want to do battery acid

captainlezbian ,

From what I hear the best way to make dmt sound not awesome is to describe the taste

Death_Equity ,

Used corn oil, tortillas, and a hint of a taste like new car air conditioning smells with an aftertaste of a little bit of brake fluid. Yeah, I can kind of see how that would be off-putting but you won’t mind it and you can just swallow it with a liter of black current juice and spend some quality time with machine elves instead of vaping it.

The taste aspect of DMT is like a partner who is 10/10 that will blow your mind in every way but who has farts that smell like a rotting dumpster of seafood and offal on fire outside of a wastewater treatment facility. You can’t just write them off because of one manageable issue.

Kolanaki ,
@Kolanaki@yiffit.net avatar

The fact it still teaches the “gateway drug” shit tells me it’s outdated as hell.

cornshark ,

Hmm, I went looking around and it seems opinions are mixed?

en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gateway_drug_effect#Histo… suggests one longitudinal study found a causal link, but another meta-study found a correlation without enough evidence to indicate a causal link?

kungen ,

When you gotta hang out with people (who most likely do/sell other drugs), no risk that you’re going to get an offer to try something else.

ProgrammingSocks ,

Not really true at all in Canada. Once again this is just the side effects of weed being illegal being mistaken for the fault of the substance when it’s not.

kungen ,

Where did I say otherwise? If you’re able to go to a normal licenced shop and buy it, of course the example I gave wouldn’t happen.

ShepherdPie ,

I’d argue that if there is any gateway effect, it’s solely related to the propaganda taught to the public that falls apart once you’ve actually tried some of them.

I don’t think there’s anything inherent about the drugs themselves that would drive you to try anything stronger. It’s more that the misinformation makes people think “if they lied to me about this, what else were they lying about?” after trying something like weed and realizing it doesn’t turn you into a psychopath or make you want to jump out of a window.

Ballistic_86 ,

The “gateway” drug thing was taught to me through DARE in the 90s. But has been confirmed propoganda for decades. Calling Cannabis (marijuana is not the proper name) a “gateway” drug is like saying water or air are “gateway” drugs. Sure, a crack head has probably smoked weed, but that isn’t what got them into crack.

I would guess that these materials are, either, very old or they categorize cannabis differently because it is so common. It doesn’t help that it is illegal in half the country and legal in the other half. So any state with cannabis not, at least, decriminalized will still have the talking points for the 1930s.

FlyingSquid OP ,
@FlyingSquid@lemmy.world avatar

Thankfully, she knows from her father, who uses cannabis medicinally, that it is not a “gateway drug.” Especially since the pain I am using it to treat now was one which a doctor originally tried and failed to treat by throwing multiple opioids at it and I’m not doing fentanyl today despite that. Two days of withdrawal was a bitch though.

Ballistic_86 ,

I’m glad to hear you are off the opioid train. Have lost family members to it and my father is currently been on them for years. I tried to get him on the THC train, he even has a medical card, but he claims to not like the effects. I live in a recently legal state so I’m waiting until I can show him a store with a wide variety to try. I know there is some strain that will help with his pain and suffering without the effects he didn’t like.

FlyingSquid OP ,
@FlyingSquid@lemmy.world avatar

I’m luckier than others in that I hate the effects of opioids, so unless it is actually doing some pain killing (fentanyl did wonders when I was in the ER with kidney stones), I just wouldn’t want it in my system.

But I also know that there are plenty of people it does work for who use it because they are legitimately in pain and either were hooked on them by a doctor and can’t get off or just can’t afford an alternative other than to score something illegally to solve their pain issues due to our capitalist healthcare system.

I realize you have to simplify things for kids sometimes, but this is not the way to do it.

refalo ,

Are you sure you’re taking enough?

FlyingSquid OP ,
@FlyingSquid@lemmy.world avatar

Taking enough what, weed or opioids?

refalo ,

Yes

littlebluespark ,
@littlebluespark@lemmy.world avatar

Seriously. How undereducated is the general population to still be willfully ignorant that “marijuana” is literally BS Spanish “Mary Jane” and not what anyone prior to the utter failure that still is the “War on Drugs” has ever called any part of the plant? FFS. 🤷🏼‍♂️

Sethayy ,

I’m begging everyone to watch the intro script of Reefer Madness, its honestly comedy gold how horribly its aged

lvxferre , (edited )
@lvxferre@mander.xyz avatar

And they’re making a fucking mess of the pharmacological and social definitions of “drug”. It’s the propaganda version of that “ackshyually tomato is a fruit, not a vegetable” brain-rotting idiocy.

Depressant, stimulant, those refer to the pharmacological activity; it’ll include even things not socially considered as drugs, such as caffeine (stimulant) and alcohol (depressant). In this sense marijuana is not its own class, it’s THC is a depressant.

That “club drugs” category is a fucking mess in both definitions. Ketamine is an anaesthetic, thus likely a depressant; ecstasy is mostly a stimulant with weak hallucinogen properties, pharmacologically they’re nothing alike. And socially they’re closer to caffeine (as things that you ingest willingly) than to date rape drugs (things that people give you against your consent).

And even the division in social drugs depends on usage. Marijuana for example can be used for clinical or recreative reasons; abuse is of course bad, but frankly I wouldn’t be surprised if most marijuana smokers had better lungs than I do (I don’t smoke weed but I smoke tobacco - nicotine is a depressant stimulant BTW). Same deal with the date rape drugs, alcohol could be used as one.

Aaaaah, sorry for the rant. What I want to convey is that yeah, I get why this infuriates you. It infuriated me too.

bane_killgrind ,

You sound really judgey about forget-me-nows

iltoroargento ,
@iltoroargento@lemmy.sdf.org avatar

“I’ve made a huge mistake…”

Bizarroland ,
@Bizarroland@kbin.social avatar

I could have sworn nicotine was technically a stimulant because it has vasoconstrictive properties.

And I don't know anyone who has ever put off going to sleep in order to take more depressants.

woodytrombone ,

Nicotine is absolutely classified as a stimulant.

This isn’t the first time I’ve heard a user misclassify it—I imagine it has something to do with smoking or dipping mitigating withdrawal (thus relaxing) more than the drug’s actual effects.

lvxferre ,
@lvxferre@mander.xyz avatar

I fucked it up - thanks for pointing it out, fixed it. (I switched them because smoking a cig relaxes me quite a bit.)

captainlezbian ,

Not only can alcohol be used as a date rape drug, it’s the most common one. It’s safer for the assailant to give you a stronger drink than you think you’re getting than to give you something like roofies. Additionally bartenders will gladly do it as it’s not uncommon for someone to want a double.

aceshigh ,
@aceshigh@lemmy.world avatar

Weed is a gateway drug to the fridge.

refalo ,

lmao

BilboBargains ,

I get the sense that the author hasn’t tried many or any of these substances and is trotting out the standard line. I didn’t see alcohol, cigarettes and Oxycontin mentioned.

If we’re going to have an adult conversation about addictive substances we should first talk about sugar and junk food. We should also discuss the dangers of a sedentary lifestyle, lack of healthcare and community, ignorance of mental health, motor vehicles, pollution, the criminal justice system, Judeo-Christian culture and being a person of colour. Those will form the major risk factors for human health.

Neon ,

we should first talk about sugar and junk food

Absolutely not. Cigarettes are way way way more dangerous than sugar and junk-food

NoneOfUrBusiness ,

I mean yes but at least in the US the latter two are overwhelmingly more common.

ZILtoid1991 ,

Issue with the US is that HFCS is heavily subsidized, and thus added to everything.

Dkarma ,

False. Heart disease is the number one killer.

boatsnhos931 ,

YOU EVER SUCK DICK FOR WEED? BOO THIS MAN BOOOOOOO!!!

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