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savvywolf ,
@savvywolf@pawb.social avatar

I agree there’s a lot of problems with unpaid internships and work and such, but I don’t think this is that bad?

It feels like “hey, if you really like our product and want to show it off, we can send you information and merch, and put you in touch with higher ups.”

I’d complain if Microsoft or Google started doing this, because they are huge megacorps with deep pockets, but Framework seems like a small company that can’t really afford huge marketing departments. If people want to devote their time to a cause they beleive in, more power to them.

They also aren’t doing it with the promise or threat of something, which is an issue with a lot of unpaid work. The people they’re targeting know exactly what they are getting into, and that they are doing it for their own reasons.

sentient_loom ,
@sentient_loom@sh.itjust.works avatar

a cause they beleive in

profitable companies are causes now

Profitable companies don’t get to have “volunteers.” Non-profits and charities get to have those. This is data collection for product development, and advertising for products.

This is a reason for me to not buy a Framework laptop.

helenslunch ,
@helenslunch@feddit.nl avatar

profitable companies are causes now

People want to promote companies with ethical business practices. I don’t understand why that’s such a problem for you.

davel ,
@davel@lemmy.ml avatar

I won’t even volunteer feedback to companies when they ask for it, and they incessantly ask for it.

unexposedhazard ,

Well its not gonna get any better by not supporting the companies that try to do better.

davel , (edited )
@davel@lemmy.ml avatar

I don’t put up with for-profit companies any more than I have to. I don’t support them or do charity work for them. Corporate brands are not out friends.

nous ,

What non-profit company did you get the computer you are currently using to type these messages from?

davel , (edited )
@davel@lemmy.ml avatar

Do you think that’s a clever gotcha? I said, “I don’t put up with for-profit companies any more than I have to.”

https://lemmy.ml/pictrs/image/6bf45c97-9b70-4aab-b533-b7d572adc05b.jpeg

Edit to add: For a free & commercial free & non-profit social media platform with a FOSS focus, there’s a surprising amount of corpo simping going on here.

helenslunch ,
@helenslunch@feddit.nl avatar

Edit to add: For a free & commercial free & non-profit social media platform with a FOSS focus, there’s a surprising amount of corpo simping going on here.

So, I suppose, every company should be non-profit, in your eyes? Everyone should just volunteer their time? I’m just wondering how your utopian society is supposed to function?

You’re never going to have free computers. Framework represents the opposite of everything big corpos stand for.

Businesses can be for-profit and still ethical. In fact, the vast majority of them are. It’s only the wildly wealthy and powerful ones that are shit. Taking a stand against them is incredibly naive and ignorant.

davel ,
@davel@lemmy.ml avatar

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Capitalist_Realism

https://www.ursulakleguin.com/nbf-medal

☭

helenslunch ,
@helenslunch@feddit.nl avatar

Okay so you’re just delusional then. Glad we sorted that out!

I don’t suppose you work for a profit? Your landlord let’s you live for free in their house? Fuckin Ruth’s Chris steakhouse just says “ah, you good bruh!” at the checkout counter?

davel ,
@davel@lemmy.ml avatar

thenib.com/mister-gotcha/

https://lemmy.ml/pictrs/image/07a93901-ba13-425c-9ea2-653fc38f2ef7.jpeg

Maybe I should start charging you a monthly fee for access to lemmy.ml.

helenslunch ,
@helenslunch@feddit.nl avatar

Quit reposting this shitty meme. It’s not applicable. If you want a society where everyone works for free, you’d better get the ball rolling. Advocating for others to do that while refusing to do it yourself is pure hypocrisy.

Maybe I should start charging you a monthly fee for access to lemmy.ml.

Why would I pay you for something I don’t even use? And you don’t even own? If you want to start your own Lemmy server and charge admission, by all means, go right ahead. But Lemmy by it’s very nature wouldn’t allow for that since there are hundreds of other free servers. You see anyone out there making laptops for free and just giving them away to anyone who wants them? No? What a bunch of assholes!

Lemmy is something people created in their spare time. When they’re not working at their jobs that pay them with money they collect from customers so that they can pay rent and buy food.

This is just such a preposterously insane thing to even put forward.

davel , (edited )
@davel@lemmy.ml avatar

Quit reposting this shitty meme. It’s not applicable.

You are literally the kind of liberal smuglord this meme is about.

If you want a society where everyone works for free

I want a society where the capitalist class is abolished, so that it no longer leeches off the labor of the working class.

Why would I pay you for something I don’t even use?

You’re using it right now, or else you wouldn’t be talking to me.

And you don’t even own?


<span style="color:#323232;">$ curl -s https://lemmy.ml/api/v3/site 
</span><span style="font-weight:bold;color:#a71d5d;">>    | </span><span style="color:#323232;">jq -r </span><span style="color:#183691;">'[.admins[].person] | map(select(.name == "davel")) | .[0].name'
</span><span style="color:#323232;">davel
</span><span style="color:#323232;">$
</span>
Zyansheep ,

You are literally the kind of liberal smuglord this meme is about.

Forgive me, but I couldn’t resist the opportunity to engage in some liberal smuglordery :P

I want a society where the capitalist class is abolished, so that it no longer leeches off the labor of the working class.

Very cool goal! I wish you luck. However, to achieve your goals you must be rational and pragmatic. The situation in the context of this thread is thus: we have for-profit company Framework making laptops that are highly repairable, friendly to third party mods, and open source software (all things I hope we all agree are “good”). We also have the rest of the industry, most of which are also for-profit which does not do these things. I view the rhetorically pragmatic choice here, given the assumption that Framework contributes to some higher individual utility compared to anything else, is to support their mission, as opposed to dissing them as that in theory may put people off and they may stay with the less ethical companies instead. Or start your own laptop company that’s even better than framework and then diss them ;)

davel , (edited )
@davel@lemmy.ml avatar

The fact that Framework makes nice laptops is orthogonal to anything I’ve said. I might buy one some day. I’m not “dissing” Framework in particular over other capitalist laptop makers. My only specific criticism is in their trawling for free labor from their fan base.

bastion ,

Not really involved in this conversation, but you are literally calling this guy a smuglord while smugly treating him like he’s an idiot.

The way you’re using that meme looks like smug feelgood self-supporting blanket rejection of any argument as being from a ‘smuglord’.

Grow up. Live your communist dream, but if you try to shove it down someone’s throat, particularly in an inapplicable situation, don’t be surprised if you find yourself choking instead.

davepar ,

@bastion @davel
Workers being paid nothing is more of a capitalist dream, is it not?

helenslunch ,
@helenslunch@feddit.nl avatar

Well that’s your prerogative but I’ve no idea what that has to do with this conversation. Nobody should be allowed to do it because you don’t want to do it?

Companies ask for feedback so they can make products people actually want to buy…you have a problem with that as well?

savvywolf ,
@savvywolf@pawb.social avatar

Fix Consumer Electronics

We know consumer electronics can be better for you and for the environment. Unlike most products, ours are open for you to repair and upgrade.

That’s the “cause” that people believe in. And the volunteers that they are looking for are those that think Framework are the way to accomplish it. Realistically, that problem can’t be solved by a non-profit - Materials, logistics and R&D can’t be done by volunteers. So a corporation is the only reasonable choice for the goal they want to accomplish.

I’m sure they would love to be able to pay all the people that will volunteer, but they likely just don’t have the money. So it’s either give volunteers something for helping out, or just do nothing and ignore them.

Creat ,

You might want to actually read the article, cause that’s completely missing the point of the program, and ignoring all context. As with all things, context matters.

It’s a free market though. You can just buy from the wonderful companies that are Dell or Lenovo instead. Don’t try to look to closely at them, or you won’t be able to but a laptop ever again.

sentient_loom ,
@sentient_loom@sh.itjust.works avatar

I did actually read the article and I did not miss the point even a little bit.

teawrecks ,

I think the jury is still out on whether Framework can be profitable. And by that definition, literally asking someone what product you want them to make is data collection.

I’m not a fan of a for-profit organisation having unpaid workers, but I get it if they want to see an otherwise unprofitable, yet passionate demographic. If they can compensate the person in other ways like was mentioned above (merch, contact with decision makers, possibly info on future products) then there is some exchange happening there and maybe that’s worth it to the right person.

Fubarberry ,
@Fubarberry@sopuli.xyz avatar

Yeah, I’m fine with it.

z00s ,

can’t afford huge marketing departments

Then they need to market within their budget. That’s not an excuse.

youtu.be/jVkLVRt6c1U?si=kD1NNv1Sv0K5DFnV

thesmokingman ,

I thought that there was no way this was unpaid and that the ambassadors would get Framework tech. Nope. You have to already own it. Doesn’t even seem like it comes with a discount even?

I am a product “ambassador” for several things in the gaming world. I get access to new things earlier and at a discounted rate. I get free promotional items that actually have some value. I sometimes get a per diem if I do certain events. I feel valued. I don’t get that vibe at all from this.

laughterlaughter ,

And how much do these products you’re an ambassador of cost?

And are these new start-ups, or mega-companies?

thesmokingman ,

Game promos are usually expensive long-term because they’re produced in limited batches.

Most board game companies run off Kickstarter. Your distinction doesn’t really apply because it’s not normal to get external funding. Framework just hit their Series A which, usually, includes money for marketing and running in the red. Board game companies usually can’t run in the red.

laughterlaughter ,

You’re comparing board game companies with a laptop manufacturing company, right?

A company manufacturing a laptop like the Framework laptop is not just sourcing parts and assembling them together. There’s a LOT of work put in it, way more than some board game.

Their laptop costs in the thousands, and given their (so far) niche market, I can see why it isn’t feasible for them to give away these expensive to manufacture machines to community ambassadors.

thesmokingman ,

That explanation runs counter to my experience with VC-funded companies, marketing budgets, and running in the red in general. Trying to hit as much of the total addressable market as possible means burning money. Notice how I expanded and included discounts? You don’t even get a 5% off code. Framework is making a profit so they can lose margin on a low percentage (if they’re not making a profit then there’s no reason to not throw away more to get closer to TAM anyway).

Board games run in the thousands for some of the bigger ticket items. I’m not sure you understand either market. I regularly crowdfund packages that are more than at least 25% of the Framework prices I’m skimming now.

laughterlaughter ,

Thanks for the insight.

bitfucker ,

They are specifically searching for volunteers. So it makes sense that they are searching for an owner and active user of their product instead of a random person that may or may not understand their product value. If you are requiring payment to be their ambassador then you are working for them not volunteering.

thesmokingman ,

You’ve done a great job summarizing the bad things they’re doing!

bitfucker ,

I don’t know man. If I have a framework laptop AND I regularly attend computer events of some sort, the framework ambassador programs do not sound all that different than the usual but you got free merch. That is the people they are targeting. You can even say their fanboy or whatever equivalent.

Ultimately, framework knows there are people that are actively using their products, attending events and love to talk about their products. This can be seen in another way of framework giving those people free merch for their free marketing that they always do anyway.

haui_lemmy ,

I agree that it can be viewed that way. I wish they would have worded it accordingly.

„We would like to award i our die hard fans with free merch through our ambassador programme. Please email us if you: 1. own a framework device, 2. regularly attend conferences, 3. like to talk about framework to new people. In this case you‘re eligible for our ambassador programme and to free merch and other cool stuff.“

In harsh opposition to searching for people working for free for a (albeit good meaning I suppose) for profit company.

delirious_owl ,
@delirious_owl@discuss.online avatar

There’s nothing wrong with volunteering with a FOSS project

autonomoususer OP ,

That’s hardware.

delirious_owl ,
@delirious_owl@discuss.online avatar

Its both. And there’s nothing wrong with volunteering for it

Baleine ,
@Baleine@jlai.lu avatar

I wouldn’t blame a volunteer but I think its wrong for for-profit companies to ask for non remunerated work

delirious_owl ,
@delirious_owl@discuss.online avatar

There’s nothing wrong with them asking

There is something wrong if they make demands

penquin ,

This involves travel. I don’t know of anyone who is willing to leave their day job and just travel out of pocket without any compensation. I like the company, but this is doable if you’re a YouTuber maybe? I don’t see anyone doing it, honestly.

woelkchen ,
@woelkchen@lemmy.world avatar

I don’t see anyone doing it, honestly.

Brainwashing can achieve so many things. Surely people thinking paid FW employees are their friends and it’s merely doing their friends a favor (and in return they get stickers, some to keep, most to hand out).

penquin ,

Good luck brainwashing me out of having to pay my bills and keeping a roof of my kids’ heads. Lol

baseless_discourse ,

From my read, this is not even for marketing, but mainly for feedback to improve framework products. Framework will also have merch packages for the ambassador.

These ambassadors would attend linux conferences anyways, framework just want them to communicate to frameworks when anyone have any feedback.

I am okay with this.

ByteOnBikes ,

Oh nice!

Then it’s really just a bad name. Volunteer ambassador implies a lot of other responsibilities.

Other industries call it like VIP or Insiders Club. And their responsibilities for being a part of it is to also share the excitement of the product.

BaroqueInMind ,

These guys are the Tesla of PC distributors, and the Framework laptop is trash tier Cybertruck equivalent.

DieserTypMatthias ,
@DieserTypMatthias@lemmy.ml avatar

Why do you think that?

BaroqueInMind ,

Because I am dumb and don’t know what I am talking about.

fuckwit_mcbumcrumble ,

Framework: based on the idea of repair and upgrade ability

Tesla: as anti right to repair as it gets, builds cars that are difficult to repair

🤔 yes these are similar.

delirious_owl ,
@delirious_owl@discuss.online avatar

Tesla is the antithesis of FOSS.

BaroqueInMind ,

Tesla likes to lock shit down tighter than a nun’s panties.

linearchaos ,
@linearchaos@lemmy.world avatar

Ehh I don’t have any beef with this. The best parts of Linux are about unpaid community labor.

Replaceable parts is a good thing. They don’t perform well for the price. I considered getting a couple for work, but perf and the 3:2 screen are just a no go.

matcha_addict ,

The best parts of Linux involve unpaid community labor, yes, but framework laptop is a for-profit product, so I wouldn’t think it applies here.

WbrJr ,

I agree, but in the other Hand, everyone at framework is just a huge nerd. They all worked as engineers in big other companies before and decided its time for a change. So for me it does not really feel like profit is their sole number one priority. And like the team diacribes quite well in the comments of the post, they are just enthusiastic and want to enable motivated lads to work more closely with the developer team

woelkchen ,
@woelkchen@lemmy.world avatar

So for me it does not really feel like profit is their sole number one priority.

Considering that they get paid their monthly salaries either way, the amount of profit is surely not on their mind all the time. According to Framework investor LTT Linus, the company is very successful. Why doesn’t he promote Linux on Framework then?

delirious_owl , (edited )
@delirious_owl@discuss.online avatar

Its an open-source product, through. You could make your own laptop with their designs

sentient_loom ,
@sentient_loom@sh.itjust.works avatar

They closed it to new comments.

People who feel they need to have their travel, hotel, event fees, etc. compensated are not a good fit for this program.

So “NO POOR PEOPLE.”

I disliked Framework ever since their “fans” (paid trolls) started bombarding every Thinkpad post on reddit with “frAmEwoRk iS tHe neW tHinKpaD” replies. Normally I support the little guy, but I really hope Lenovo creates their own modular laptop so I can buy one of them instead.

Draghetta ,

Good luck hoping for anything about Lenovo, they’ve gone down and down the shitter ever since they “split” from IBM.

No I don’t own a framework nor plan to do so, I’m just an average IT guy who is forced to choose between Lenovo and Mac to work, and after the third garbage laptop in a row bit the bullet and got the Mac. I also own an x200 and a t430 that i was in love with - nothing to do with the present day latrines masquerading as computers.

Screw Lenovo really. Hope for some decent competition to framework (I hope for that too, they are currently the only ones in that niche) but don’t hope for it from them.

sentient_loom ,
@sentient_loom@sh.itjust.works avatar

My T16 is fantastic. I wish it were more moddable, but it’s an amazing machine. Extremely quiet and powerful, I love the 16:10 screen. They keyboard is amazing too. Framework also has 16:10 screens and they’re more moddable, but I doubt their keyboards are any good. And as a profitable company they should pay people for advertising and data collection.

Bitrot , (edited )
@Bitrot@lemmy.sdf.org avatar

Lenovo is a lot more hit and miss than it used to. My T14 even has Linux bugs with the trackpad.

sentient_loom ,
@sentient_loom@sh.itjust.works avatar

yeah a lot of their stuff is junk

aard ,
@aard@kyu.de avatar

Pretty much same here - I kept an x230 alive until I had to accept earlier this year that it just is bad for overall productivity, and ended up getting a macbook. None of the newer thinkpads are good - and they’re still one of the less bad manufacturers.

There’s also enough stuff I don’t like about the mac - but the current keyboard is one of the better notebook keyboards available right now, and if you want long battery life, lots of RAM and a lot of CPU power available in a compact device they’re the only manufacturer currently offering that.

Hawke ,

Heh, if you think Lenovo is bad and mac vs Lenovo is a bad choice to have to make…

…what do you put forth as the shining beacon of laptop mfgs? Cos it ain’t Dell, and it sure isn’t HP.

Who else is there?

Draghetta ,

Apple and wait for Asahi Linux to finish their driver support 🫠 don’t know what to tell you man.

I have never tried framework laptops - maybe they’re glorious, maybe they’re junk - but of all the laptops I tried Apple are the only decent ones hardware-wise (and software-wise too if you like osx).

I don’t know who else makes decent laptops nowadays, but Lenovo isn’t it, and most likely won’t be.

possiblylinux127 ,

Or even better have a laptop that can be built from multiple brand parts. I want framework to be a standard.

bitfucker ,

I think the program specifically targets the people that are an active user of framework AND actively attend those events anyway. So being paid by framework doesn’t change whether that person goes to an event or not. That makes a certain sense IMHO since if you are only attending if being paid to do so, then you are not a volunteer.

kittenzrulz123 ,

This is an awful and scummy move, in exchange for marketing their product they give out stickers? They aren’t giving out Framework laptops and if setting up a framework station at a convention costs money you’re supposed to pay for it yourself? If I ever want to upgrade to a modern laptop I think I’ll choose System76.

prenatal_confusion ,

Aren’t the just rebranding some generic ones that they vetted for compatibility? I heard that somewhere, so take it with a grain of salt.

Hawke ,

That’s what most laptop OEMs do.

Dell is just “rebranded” Compal, Quanta, Clevo…

That’s not a bad thing and the ODM/OEM system is not anything new.

Sometimes the difference is just the badge, sometimes it’s firmware changes too, sometimes it’s completely customized to the OEM specifications.

It has varied a lot over time and mostly depends on how big the OEM is and proportionally how much time/effort/expense they want to throw at a particular design.

gfom ,
@gfom@lemmy.world avatar

They could’ve worded it better, and make it clearer in the first couple of sentences that this is intended for owners of FWs who already go to these events.

I had bigger issues with, say, Ubisoft and JGL getting artist to work for exposure on Beyond Good and Evil 2 back when that was a thing.

But I also 100% that it feels like asking for free labour, intended or not.

RvTV95XBeo ,

Unpaid Linux ambassadors? Isn’t that just Lemmy?

Diplomjodler3 ,

May the Penguin be with you!

woelkchen ,
@woelkchen@lemmy.world avatar

Unpaid Linux ambassadors?

No, unpaid Framework PR people at Linux events.

shirro ,

I have a Framework 13" DIY running Linux. It is functional. I am reasonably confident I will be able to buy replacements for anything that breaks which is important to me. It is well designed for repair and upgrade but other devices offer better price/performance/features. If you are on a tight budget and care about the environment buy used.

autonomoususer OP , (edited )

Long-term?

shirro , (edited )

I purchased in December 2022. I have not needed to buy any replacement parts but availability appears good.

At the same time I bought one of my kids the cheapest MSI laptop I could find for school. I just learned some of the keys on the MSI have been working intermittently. I have no idea what to do with it. We didn’t value a laptop for running Microsoft Word very highly and spent the savings on linux desktop upgrades. I can’t say it was the wrong choice. With the Framework it is trivial to check the connector or order a replacement but there was a substantial price difference.

Out of selfishness I would like people to keep buying Framework so they keep their replacement parts stocked but blind brand loyalty is stupid. People don’t need remuneration to engage in a hobby but if they are working for a company then unpaid labour is generally an abuse.

fuckwit_mcbumcrumble ,

You can probably find a used keyboard on eBay. Even if the OEM doesn’t sell parts plenty of people will part out old broken machines.

reddit_sux , (edited )

If you are on a tight budget

Not for tight budgets

Sorry i didn’t read the whole statement

mysteryname101 ,

If you are on a tight budget and care about the environment buy used.

Snapz ,

“We’d love to not pay you for labor!!!”

:)

ramenu ,

I can understand why this may be a issue to some people. I think if they asked Windows users this, there wouldn’t be as much of a strong reaction to this. Maybe it comes off as exploiting the good will of the Linux community, but I can’t read minds.

I’m personally ok with this. If someone willingly volunteers and enjoys doing this, then what’s the problem? But again, I’m not sure if that’s the core issue at hand here.

tabular ,
@tabular@lemmy.world avatar

Not passing judgement at this volunteering specifically but willingly doing something doesn’t necessarily mean there’s no problems. It could still be exploitative.

markstos ,

Framework clarified they are looking for people who already own Frameworks and are already attending Linux events and happy to talk to people about their laptop. They’re not really asking people to do anything additional, but they will be giving them some free merchandise.

lordnikon ,

Windows did have something liked this. It was the MVP program.

vvv ,

it feels to me, like they’re less looking for new people to start doing this “work”, but more to connect with people who already happen to be enthusiastically going to events and showing off their laptops.

possiblylinux127 ,

Linux means free (cost) labor and software right?

Anyway this program is probably going to flop as you will get the bottom of the barrel.

autonomoususer OP , (edited )

deleted_by_author

    •
    possiblylinux127 ,

    That’s why why I put cost

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