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reverendsteveii ,

this is markets working. this is why we want police to have to carry insurance.

Everythingispenguins ,

Police departments do carey insurance, and a few rare cases departments have shut down because of being uninsurable.

But do we really want private free market solutions for public problems?

reverendsteveii ,

do we really want private free market solutions for public problems?

When we have public solutions in-place? No. When we have no solution in-place and the police kill unarmed victims of crime who are fully cooperating with commands and then try to suppress video evidence of it? Then yeah, maybe I’m okay with an imperfect solution.

Everythingispenguins ,

Sadly it is not really even an imperfect solution. Yes there have been a few departments who lost insurance, but it did nothing to stop the cops responsible for the bad behavior from working as cops, often at the agency who has to take over. Additionally the number of departments shut down is just a drop in the bucket of bad behavior. Lastly this can leave communities without adequate law enforcement.

I have nothing against increasing the cost of bad policing, but this does very little of anything to actually cause change.

Revan343 ,

it did nothing to stop the cops responsible for the bad behavior from working as cops

That’s why it would work better if they individually had to carry insurance. Cops with a history of bad behaviour would find themselves priced out of the job.

Treczoks ,

So, basically, he had one accident per year. And he is not smart enough to understand that the universe is trying to tell him "Don't drive a car, then!"

OneWomanCreamTeam ,

I mean “don’t drive a car” isn’t always an option, especially if you’re in America.

Treczoks ,

From a certain accident rate upwards, it is. Anywhere.

OneWomanCreamTeam ,

Nah, people here just drive without a license. I really wish that wasn’t the case but it’s kind of inevitable when so much quality of life here is dependent on driving.

If you’re lucky enough to have people to support you that can really mitigate it, but unfortunately we’re not all so lucky.

Daxtron2 ,

I legitimately don’t get people who can’t drive. It’s actually ridiculously simple to not break the law or get in an accident. I’ve never had a ticket or been in an accident. Closest was I slid on ice and hopped a curb once, but there was no damage at all because, get this, I was driving slow enough for the bad weather conditions :0

UnderpantsWeevil ,
@UnderpantsWeevil@lemmy.world avatar

I legitimately don’t get people who can’t drive.

Setting aside folks with serious disabilities, folks with long term mental decline, folks with mechanical difficulties, folks with rambunctious kids in the back seats, folks in neighborhoods with high speed limits and generally unsafe driving conditions, folks who have to drive through inclement weather, folks who don’t regularly maintain their car’s brakes and tires, folks who drive cars that have poor visibility (big trucks, particularly), and folks who just never learned rules of the road before getting a rubber stamp from a DMV that does not give a shit…

It’s difficult to understand why other people don’t drive as well as I do.

One sec. Sorry. Banging this out on my phone while driving and I had a whoopsie-doodle. Let me clean this up and I’ll finish my post.

Daxtron2 ,

Ok so obviously if you have a medical condition that makes you unsafe to drive, you shouldn’t drive. If you don’t maintain your car that’s entirely on you. If you choose a car with poor visibility you’re purposefully endangering everyone around you so you shouldn’t drive. If you don’t understand the rules, you certainly shouldn’t be allowed to drive but that’s a whole separate issue.

Nefara ,

Not everybody has a choice or an option, there are so many places in the US where the place you live absolutely necessitates the use of a car to do literally anything related to living your life. Living in places with actual transit infrastructure that allow independence from cars are sometimes too expensive or have high COL’s

Daxtron2 ,

Yes I’m well aware, I live in one of those areas.

intensely_human ,

Not everybody has a choice or an option, there are so many places in the US where the place you live absolutely necessitates the use of a car to do literally anything related to living your life

People have the choice to move. I’m sick of this “no choice” horseshit people do to justify unsafe driving.

“Well bonking baby heads with a hammer is the only job here so I have to do that. I’m not a bad guy I’ve got no choice”

Unless you live on a little island with no trees to fashion a raft from, but plenty of baby bonking jobs, you can go to a different town.

dumpsterlid ,

It’s actually ridiculously simple to not break the law or get in an accident.

Driving a car is absurdly difficult, incredibly dangerous, takes only a second of distraction to kill yourself and others and in general is such a nightmare that it is contrary to what you say a miracle that people aren’t crashing into each other all the damn time.

Like, everybody I have gotten in a car with for the past 10 years invariably will get stressed out significantly by the unavoidable chaos of driving enough to visibly become emotional about it even during a short drive. Driving is miserable.

KevonLooney ,

Also, an accident is just a matter of time / miles. You can be the most careful driver in the world and a car can pull in front of you on the freeway and come to a dead stop. You’ll hit them from behind and the insurance company will blame you.

abysmalpoptart ,

I can agree with some of your response to what was said by the other commenter, but my impression is that person was shocked that someone at a young age has been involved in double digit accidents that mostly sound like their fault. Some people really just are incapable of driving, though that shouldn’t diminish that small lapses or true accidents do happen.

I would disagree that driving in general is miserable, though I’m sure this can vary by location. While i would prefer better access to efficient public transit (live in the USA), being able to get in a car and go anywhere is pretty freeing, provided it isn’t during high volume times, especially on a freeway.

braxy29 ,

i have never been in a serious accident. over 30 years driving, probably 2/3 of it in major metro areas with notably terrible traffic, and i have had maybe 5 fender benders… i would have to really think about it.

driving is absolutely dangerous and terrifying. but wow, it’s kinda nuts that the person in the screenshot has had so many accidents!

abysmalpoptart ,

I can totally understand, and that makes a lot of sense. I think the sheer volume of accidents in the post are what’s so shocking. I’ve only been in a vehicle with an obviously reckless driver two times (so far. And to clarify, two people, once each), and from my perspective, some people really shouldn’t drive. Heck, one of those two times was supposed to be a casual date (she was picking me up, we were in college), and i asked her to drop me off immediately. Big nope.

dumpsterlid ,

being able to get in a car and sit in traffic anywhere is pretty freeing

Fixed that for youuu

abysmalpoptart , (edited )

That’s why i added not high volume times, so what i meant was regarding specifically driving when you aren’t stuck in traffic. I’m suggesting that the act of driving itself isn’t normally a horrific experience, though yes, sitting in traffic is awful.

Edited for some clarity

intensely_human ,

true accidents do happen

I disagree. It’s like a gun. There’s negligence, but “true accidents” I’m not sure if I buy it.

A person can actually, literally, control whether their car hits anything. It’s a solvable problem.

dumpsterlid , (edited )

I> A person can actually, literally, control whether their car hits anything. It’s a solvable problem.

That is a really silly way to look at car accidents and the tragedies that come out of them. Just because you could rewind time and change what the drivers were doing to avoid a crash happening doesn’t really mean anything about the inherent risk factors to driving. Accidents are going to happen, we live in the real world not the one in which people behave consistently and perfectly and freak unexpected situations never happen.

Further, most people HAVE to drive their car in order to live their life on a daily basis (getting to work and back being the most obvious need). Driving isn’t a choice for most people at least in the US, so people are absolutely always going to be driving when they really don’t want to or aren’t at their most alert. It is just something we have to do sometimes in order to make ends meet in our lives.

I disagree. It’s like a gun. There’s negligence, but “true accidents” I’m not sure if I buy it.

No, you can walk around with a gun, even with it cocked and so long as you keep your finger off the trigger the likelihood of an unavoidable or unforeseen accident is still fairly low. A gun is an inert object that must be compelled to become lethal by the pressing of a trigger. A 5000 pound SUV on the other hand, by simply moving at normal driving speeds in close proximity to other people, consistently presents lethal opportunities that the driver must actively take steps to prevent from becoming realities.

A gun and a car are almost precise opposites in that respect. A car is like a gun that periodically aims at someone and automatically begins a firing sequence and you have to be paying attention enough to actively intervene and stop it.

nickwitha_k ,

No, you can walk around with a gun, even with it cocked and so long as you keep your finger off the trigger the likelihood of an unavoidable or unforeseen accident is still fairly low. A gun is an inert object that must be compelled to become lethal by the pressing of a trigger. A 5000 pound SUV on the other hand, by simply moving at normal driving speeds in close proximity to other people, consistently presents lethal opportunities that the driver must actively take steps to prevent from becoming realities. A gun and a car are almost precise opposites in that respect.

This is, I think, an apples:oranges comparison as you’re not taking the objects’ functional properties into account.

What is a gun, objectively, designed to do, in the most basic terms?

Fire a projectile when the trigger mechanism is actuated.

What is an automobile designed to do, in similar terms?

Move, when the accelerator is pressed and slow when the brake pedal is pressed.

An apples:apples comparison would be something closer to this:

You can walk around with a safely holstered gun and, barring a very unlikely malfunction or external factors, it will not go off, until the trigger is pulled. You can also walk around a safely parked car and, barring a mechanical malfunction or external factors, it will not move, unless someone presses the accelerator.

Like a computer, cars and firearms generally just do what their operator “tells” them to do.

abysmalpoptart , (edited )

I don’t think it’s fair to assume, at best, an accident is negligence. There are numerous things that can lead to an accident that wouldn’t be negligence, such as normal wear and tear causing problems with something such as brakes or steering (perhaps not caught during routine maintenance as they weren’t issues at the time), something falling into the road (weather related, wildlife, erosion), a glitch of some kind (two green lights, not negligence necessarily) , or visibility issues (even cautious and solid drivers can be at risk during poor conditions). These are just some examples, but in the cases nobody involved would be at fault.

I believe the comparison to a gun is woefully inaccurate and invalid. Both are machines with the capacity to cause harm, but the similarities end there.

Daxtron2 ,

I never said it didn’t suck, but it only sucks because other people are terrible drivers. It isn’t absurdly difficult at all unless you’re incredibly incompetent.

dumpsterlid ,

I never said it didn’t suck, but it only sucks because other people are terrible drivers.

This is the least important reason driving sucks is because other people aren’t perfect at driving. The reasons driving sucks:

-1. There are wayyyyy too many cars on the road

-2. In order to try to solve 1, the entire landscape has been devoted to facilitating more and more cars which makes it depressing as fuck to go anywhere because where you are going is functionally the same as where you came from.

-3. Owning a car is absurdly stressful, massively stressful so everybody on the road at a minimum is stressed about making sure their car doesn’t fall apart and they can’t get to work.

-4. People spend massive chunks of their lives sitting in cars commuting to work for almost no reason, highways are filled with people everyday stopping and starting, stopping and starting over and over again in traffic using fossil fuels to move several thousand pound objects miles and miles all for nothing.

It isn’t absurdly difficult at all unless you’re incredibly incompetent

-5. This bring me to my last point. Just because it isn’t physically difficult to press the gas and brake pedals on a car and use the steering wheel doesn’t mean driving is easy in the slightest. It is one of the most difficult things human beings have ever been expected to do on a daily basis in terms of extreme life ending consequences for losing attention or control for only the briefest of moments. It isn’t hard to drive a car compared to say riding a horse, but driving a car is so mind numbingly frustrating and exhausting in modern life that there is a good chance one day you won’t be paying attention when that freak rare situation occurs and you need to respond instantly in order to not hit another several thousand pound object hurtling towards you with fragile humans inside (not to mention humans everywhere on the street, barely an arms length from your metal box traveling at lethal speeds).

Driving is extremely difficult, look at how stupendously self driving cars have failed to tackle the challenge even when we created AI opponents that can easily beat the best Go players in the world years ago. The fact that wayyyyyy more accidents don’t happen all the time is actually pretty incredible in terms of the daily volume of sustained, unbroken focus it takes from every single person driving to prevent more crashes.

Socsa ,

You think this because you were desensitized to it as a child riding in the car and then a teenager who learned to drive early on. My wife is from a large city where they don’t drive and she only learned as an adult and is basically paralyzed by how terrifying it is half the time.

intensely_human ,

Yeah just in the same way a person who learns to walk as a toddler is “desensitized” to the dangers of balancing on the ends of long sticks to get around.

She might want to look into some CBT for that. It’s not the only way it has to be.

Daxtron2 ,

unless you’re incredibly incompetent

repungnant_canary ,

Driving a car is absurdly difficult, incredibly dangerous, takes only a second of distraction to kill yourself and others

Yes and no.

It seems that most people are falsely convinced (or even peer-pressured to some extent) that you must drive at the speed limit or even above it. But you actually don’t have to. You must adjust your speed for weather conditions, road conditions, traffic intensity, surrounding safety infrastructure (or lack of it) and your skills and current condition.

It seems that learning how to choose your speed is missing from most driving courses worldwide. Sometimes, road maintenance provides some advice on that, for example in France you have different speed limits for wet/dry road. But in other cases drivers ignore that guidance - sometimes highway speed limit is lowered due to lack of hard shoulder or animal fences but very few people understand that and most just ignore the limit.

And then there’s your own condition - if you’re tired, slow down, your kids are crying in the back, slow down, you’re on new road, slow down, have a gut feeling, slow down!

What you’re describing is actually mostly a case for driving too fast for given conditions. Even if you’re not speeding but you can’t read and comprehend signs, road, other cars, pedestrians and navigation - you’re driving too fast, slow down.

So I think both your and OP’s comments boil down to attention. As long as you remember essential driving rules and pay attention to road, surroundings and those rules it’s difficult to cause an accident. But if your attention is slipping then it’s a slippery slope.

And if you observe that you often struggle to pay attention to one of those things, you should review your actions and skills and apply necessary corrections.

Driving is easy in a way that it’s schematic and there are not many rules compared to say aviation. But it’s not mindless! You must think about your skills, capabilities and your state of mind and act according to those. In aviation pilots do thorough risk assessment before and during flight, and drivers should do that as well. What makes driving easier than flying is that when you identify the risk as too high you can just slow down or stop.

So to summarise. For God’s sake SLOW DOWN! It saves lives.

dumpsterlid ,

Driving is easy in a way that it’s schematic and there are not many rules compared to say aviation

I just don’t agree with this, flying an airplane has got to be harder in a lot of ways but one way in which driving is more difficult is the the amount of things you can hit while driving and how easy it is to hit those things.

The entire point of an airplane is to get up into the sky so it doesn’t have to worry about hitting other things when it goes fast…

repungnant_canary ,

In terms of regulations, there’s a ton of laws that private pilots must observe.

In terms of situational awareness, I would say in some cases driving and flying are comparable. When flying VFR you are responsible for the separation from other aircraft and for navigating. So pilots need to look outside to stay away from others and look on map/ground to stay away from restricted airspaces, which gets intensive in busy airspaces.

dumpsterlid , (edited )

I’m sorry not hitting another flying object in an absolutely MASSIVE three dimensional space that is 99.99% empty is a trivial task next to driving through a busy city in essentially a two dimensional space (you can’t go above or below to avoid hazards) with high speed traffic going the other direction only inches away, abrupt requirements to stop when something pulls in front of you, a dizzying variety of cars, pedestrians, bicyclists and other hazards to keep track of and the constant pressing need to ALWAYS be ready to brake or steer violently in order to avoid crashing.

Also when air airspace does get relatively congested like say at an airport, there is usually a tower full of people who’s job it is to route traffic so all you have to do is follow their directions and communicate effectively. You don’t have to make instantaneous choices like someone trying to get to an exit across 5 lanes of busy highway traffic that isn’t letting them in.

Let me put it this way, with an airplane cruising on a level flight path, how long could the pilot let go of the controls and ignore the environment around them before they hit something? That is a difficult question to answer, it could be 10 minutes… it could be more (assuming the aircraft can maintain a cruise speed and level flight). With a car, the answer is simple, it takes no more than 3-5 seconds of ignoring the environment around you and letting go of the controls to hit something. At highway speeds the difference of a second or two can determine if you collide head on with another vehicle at a combined velocity of 120+ mph.

An airplane pilot rarely is put in a position as risky as driving a car unless they are acting extremely irresponsibly. The rules of flying set out to make it so the pilot ideally never needs the kind of split second reactions that driving requires on a day to day basis (except for perhaps during landing).

The numbers support my claims too, flying is BY FAR AND AWAY safer than driving a car. It isn’t even close, driving is by the numbers extremely dangerous compared to everything else we are required to do in order to live our lives.

intensely_human ,

Yeah it’s easy to hit things. But it’s also easy not to. Just like, look at where you’re going, go slow enough that you can stop if you need to.

It’s far easier to get to the grocery store without hitting anything with the car than it is to, say, pass the first level of Super Mario Bros.

dumpsterlid ,

It’s far easier to get to the grocery store without hitting anything with the car than it is to, say, pass the first level of Super Mario Bros.

Then why don’t we let kids who can beat Super Mario Bros in their sleep (and thus from your perspective have demonstrated the skill required to learn how to drive) drive cars?

Again just because it is easy to aim the steering wheel and press the gas peddle doesn’t mean that every time you so much as drive to the grocery store and back you aren’t literally doing the most dangerous (mandatory) activity in most adult’s lives (both in terms of risk to yourself and risk of killing or hurting others).

intensely_human ,

Because they can’t reach the pedals or grasp the moral cost of killing people, and those kids failed a lot at Mario Bros before they got that good. We can’t afford to have people fail a lot with cars until they get good.

skulkingaround ,

Then why don’t we let kids who can beat Super Mario Bros in their sleep (and thus from your perspective have demonstrated the skill required to learn how to drive) drive cars?

Well for one they can’t reach the pedals or see over the steering wheel, and the safety systems in the drivers seat are built for adult sized humans. I totally believe the average 10 y/o possesses the mental capacity to operate a motor vehicle though. I was riding dirt bikes around town at that age. Now, their risk assessment abilities might be off, but I’ve seen plenty of people way into adulthood that don’t seem to have those abilities either.

intensely_human ,

And oh my god did you just call driving mandatory? Why don’t you care what words mean that is ridiculous.

dumpsterlid ,

For the vast majority of Americans having a car is a mandatory part of having a job?

I can’t remember the last job I applied to that didn’t ask specifically whether I had a drivers license and car.

Yes, owning a car is mandatory at least in most places in the US. I don’t like it, but to believe otherwise is a strange distortion of the reality for most.

starman2112 ,
@starman2112@sh.itjust.works avatar

Hi I live in America, the word “mandatory” is definitely apt

I mean, I guess I could add a few hours to my commute by taking buses, but our public transit blows

intensely_human ,

Wow. Not for me. I drive ten hours a day sometimes. Never freaks me out.

dumpsterlid ,

If you don’t start yelling at somebody or something within 10 minutes of getting in the driver seat you are in the vanishing minority of drivers. Are you some kind of monk?

dual_sport_dork ,
@dual_sport_dork@lemmy.world avatar

Ancient ninja secret of give-no-fucks.

People have become so jaded by driving that they’ve lost the perspective on how much it beats the hell out of walking. Even if you consider being in 25 MPH highway traffic to be “slow,” you’re still covering more distance in an hour than most people would be able to cover on foot in an entire day.

intensely_human ,

True. I went from homeless two years ago to having a car now, and I appreciate the reminder.

It’s so much fucking better than having to walk, or take public transit where any trip is minimum one hour even if it’s only a ten minute drive away.

SuperSpruce ,

Driving loses your perspective on speed because you’re in a big metal box. Being on two wheels can regain the sense of speed at lower driving speeds, but I’ve noticed after 6 months of motorcycling that even those speeds can begin to feel slow on a motorcycle, especially on long rides. Sounds like that’s my calling for the track :)

intensely_human ,

Oh you mean just yelling at people? I thought you were talking serious emotional distress. Well of course I yell my head off at people it’s my civic duty as a driver to yell at people.

However I quit caffeine last week, and since then it’s down to maybe 5% as often as before. And I no longer find myself ranting after the thing is over. Just things like “whoa what the fuck!” and then it’s over.

RalphFurley ,

I haven’t driven in decades. It’s something I’m terrified of. Luckily I’ve lived in dense urban areas so even well before Uber/Lyft there was always plenty of public transit and cab stands everywhere.

ArmokGoB ,

I don’t have the gross motor coordination to safely operate a car. I could probably drive one remotely with a controller, but I can’t make the full-body motions needed to press pedals and steer with my arms at the same time.

Daxtron2 ,

I was obviously not referring to people with medical conditions. The average able-bodied person should be able to safely operate a vehicle without causing an accident.

Liz ,

Let us accept that these people exist. They are one of the many reasons walking, biking, bussing, and train riding should all viable as main modes of transportation. If your town is too small for a train, leave that out. If it’s too small for a bus, leave that out. Ain’t nobody’s town too small for good walking and biking layout and design. We did it naturally right up until we got hooked on cars.

Daxtron2 ,

I totally agree and fully encourage people to not drive whenever possible. Most of the truly stupid drivers won’t do that though

Liz ,

I was actually thinking more in terms so that the rest of us can avoid being on the road with these morons, but getting some of them off the road would also help.

Socsa ,

Yet every fucking “car forum” is just filled with people who believe that it is their God given right to do 100mph+ on every highway, and that if you slow them down they are then justified to aggressively weave in and out of traffic.

Practice just going the speed limit. It is liberating.

intensely_human ,

I’m one of those people! I demand passage and all other cars are what I like to call Enemy Traffic. Whenever I encounter Enemy Traffic I just lay on my horn until they surrender.

I’m a real person and not a caricature. I exist.

Also, I blast music when I hike.

Whenever I encounter Enemy Hikers I just stride confidently down the middle of the trail and they bounce off my football pads like ping pong balls.

One time at Chautaqua Park in Boulder a lady asked me to hold her dog’s leash while she used the restroom. So I had a stranger take a quick video of me helping out: youtube.com/shorts/OGBDBl6MuDc

intensely_human ,

Well, almost slow enough

oatscoop , (edited )

Some people have zero spatial awareness and/or an inability to judge speed and distance – their brains just aren’t wired for it. They can be perfectly normal in every other way, and some don’t even realize (or are willing to admit) it’s a problem.

Daxtron2 ,

Yep, and we should have driving tests that actually are challenging so people like that don’t get a license.

PP_BOY_ ,
@PP_BOY_@lemmy.world avatar

I know these stories are always fake anyway but holy shit, buy a bike and chill out for a few years.

Aremel ,

Wouldn’t they have revoked your license by this point?

Ilovethebomb ,

Depends where in the world this is.

Neato ,
@Neato@ttrpg.network avatar

Not necessarily. Actual accidents don’t always confer citations and many of those can be discharged for simply proving your insurance paid the other person. It’s not illegal to be a klutz, it’s just expensive.

Gigan ,
@Gigan@lemmy.world avatar

It’s surprisingly hard to take someone’s license away.

FilterItOut ,

I have a friend who has, give or take a couple, wrecked vehicles more than 20 times. Most were minor, barely involving damage to the vehicle he was driving or the vehicle/object he hit, but a couple were catastrophic. I think the majority were because he has roadway hypnosis/narcolepsy. I’ve had him fall asleep mid sentence talking to me when he was a passenger. A perfect candidate to have that license taken, right? The two ways I know of to take a license involve driving while intoxicated or a doctor personally notifying the licensing agency about a person’s inability to drive. Believe it or not, most doctors have a vested interest (because they want clients) in not personally notifying the agency. However, there is no set path to revoke a license for simply being a bad driver.

ITPaw ,
@ITPaw@discuss.tchncs.de avatar

With that he definitely would loose his license here in Germany. It’s insane to drive with narcolepsy.

Neato ,
@Neato@ttrpg.network avatar

You’d be surprised…

Canopyflyer ,

I personally know someone who totaled 4 cars before turning 18. He literally treated the gas as an on/off switch.

So people that bad at driving are out there.

Truth be told, drivers here in the US are TOTALLY untrained for the most part. My oldest is currently in driver’s Ed and it is a joke, in regards to actually how to drive a car. I have spent a lot of time training him as I have a long history taking racing and advanced driving courses. I’ve held SCCA and FIA racing licenses and I have taken some courses that are usually reserved for police officers The only problem is I do not feel that I’m a very good teacher for him. But he has picked up some things, even if he isn’t up for threshold or trail braking.

FiniteBanjo ,

Most of the USA also seems to lack options for adults to take a class and be given professional instruction on how to drive, for some odd reason. If you’re out of high school there are no classes for you.

I wonder if it’s like that in most other countries as well?

rtxn ,

Not in Hungary. Getting a category B license, which covers automobiles and mopeds, starts with a long course in driving theory, basic maintenance, and traffic laws, capped by an exam. Then a one-day first-aid training and exam. The next step is driving practice with a certified instructor – basic skills on a practice course, then real traffic, plus parking and reversing maneuvers – 30 hours total, which must include one hour of highway and one hour of night driving, and has a minimum required distance travelled, ending with a one-hour exam with the instructor and an examiner employed by the state. Next you have to pass a medical exam (sight, hearing, balance), and THEN you can apply for a driving license.

All in all, it took me about six months and cost 150,000 HUF (~400 USD using today’s conversion rate). I passed the driving exam on the second attempt – the first failed because I didn’t yield to an old beater with a busted indicator light.

Also, just for comparison, when I started driving, my insurance was around 170 USD a year and it’s only gone down. $500 per month is fucking absurd.

captainlezbian ,

Y’all have to hear to drive?

RavuAlHemio ,

Not necessarily, but the state then requires proof that the reduced hearing (1) does not impact balance, and (2) can be compensated sufficiently by the driver (e.g. actively looking out for blinking blue lights because they cannot hear the horn of police/ambulance/fire brigade vehicles).

rtxn , (edited )

You don’t?

We have to show that an imperfect hearing is not a hindrance, e.g. you won’t hear a siren coming from the left when it’s from the right.

captainlezbian ,

Nah I’m hard of hearing and allowed to drive without hearing aids. All our traffic signals are predominantly visual and sirens are treated as a secondary component to the flashing lights. Hell, cops often only use the auditory components when the visual has failed, the visual never fails for me because I understand that I absolutely must rely on my eyes when driving.

So actually this is an area of professional interest to me and yeah, it’s often horrifying how easily many systems could incorporate visual sirening but choose not to. Fire alarms have flashing lights in every workplace in my country, but tornado sirens basically never do.

In as car centric of a country as America it would be a fairly extreme injustice to prohibit the deaf from driving if we’re able to effectively use visual signals within a reasonable margin of error (I’d say so long as our best drivers are better than the average hearing driver)

KillingTimeItself ,

i mean, in fairness, how would you incorporate non auditory sirens into a tornado siren?

captainlezbian ,

Flashing blue lights with a pattern mirroring the rhythm of the siren. So a slow undulation of luminosity of blue lights. If you see something like that out of nowhere you’re gonna know something is wrong, it isn’t a fire, and if you don’t recognize the pattern to do as others are.

As a bonus, put them under the fire lights with a blue backing and the word tornado in white.

KillingTimeItself ,

ok and what do you do when you are not in range of a tornado siren to see it? Where i live we can hear them, but cannot see them. Only in particularly nearby circumstances would you see one.

In a building i suppose that would work though, usually there are plenty of other indications there. Like other people. Also i probably wouldn’t explicitly label them as tornado, unless you’re in the US. Extreme weather perhaps elsewhere.

captainlezbian ,

Well considering I’m treating this as an and not an instead… so probably whatever was happening then? Combining sensory outputs in alarms and sirens saves lives because different senses have different merits and not everyone has every sense. There is no perfect warning except forewarning and when you hit the “evacuate or seek shelter” stage of an emergency any leg up is valuable

I went with tornado siren in a building as my frame of mental reference as in my part of the United States workplaces and other similar gathering places often have mandatory audio-visual fire alarms and mandatory audio tornado sirens. These are our two drills. These are our emergencies, and one leaves me absolutely fucked if I’m not wearing my hearing aids at the time.

KillingTimeItself ,

nah i get it, i just don’t think it would do much in many cases. Especially considering that everybody has a phone these days, with a third sensory addition. Those usually tend to also notify people about severe weather events as well.

captainlezbian ,

Because you should never trust personal handheld devices to do the job of final warnings. My phone is on do not disturb at work. Many people do that. Sometimes people leave their phones in meetings. No phones are allowed on basically any factory floor unless it’s a work phone that like 1% of employees get.

So I’m an industrial engineer in addition to being deaf and one of my major professional focuses is actually human factors and as it pertains to the disabled it becomes extra important. So yeah this is basically all industry wide known to be better. So why is the fire flashy and the tornado not? Because both follow the legal minimum. I think workplace legal minimum should be raised so that any mandatory audio signal should contain a visual signal that shares the beat of the audio signal.

KillingTimeItself ,

i mean, that’s definitely fair, in the instance of something like factory, having some sort of global warning system would be advantageous. Does this stem from the recent tornado that hit a factory floor in indiana and killed like 100 people or something i think it was? If so that would make sense. There was definitely a significant issue in that scenario.

Outside of something like work or an institution though im not sure.

captainlezbian ,

No I’ve actually pitched this idea to safety departments for years. Also I’m a Midwesterner, there’s always dead factory workers thanks to a tornado.

And like I do actually think that flashing lights in certain areas can be a good idea outside of work and institutions but it’s important to keep in mind how big of a net work and institutions are. It’s a third of your time for most of your life.

KillingTimeItself ,

there are definitely instances outside where it would be productive, but then again, as midwesterners i swear going outside during a tornado warning or watch is like a genetic feature of our DNA or something.

Ilovethebomb ,

That’s insanely cheap insurance, I pay that to insure a vehicle that is parked up and not driven.

Lemmeenym ,

We’re no where near $170 a year but $500 is very high. I haven’t had a ticket or accident in about 15 years, I think insurance companies can only go back 6 years, and I’m paying about $75 per month.

joel_feila ,
@joel_feila@lemmy.world avatar

that has to be liability only

ApathyTree ,
@ApathyTree@lemmy.dbzer0.com avatar

I have full coverage with decently high coverage values (above minimum across the board, some substantially so)

I pay 60/mth, but I have a flawless driving record (driving since 04, not so much as a ticket) and live in a rural low cost state so that may factor in.

Trainguyrom ,

For someone who’s over 25 with a clean driving record you can get good coverage for one vehicle for about $500/6 mo. My wife and I have no tickets and 1 accident (deer on a county highway on a blind curve, completely unavoidable, but totaled the car) and our rate hasn’t changed in the 3 years since we last made any adjustments

joel_feila ,
@joel_feila@lemmy.world avatar

yeah the cheapest I can find is 300 month. yes i have clean record.

ricdeh ,
@ricdeh@lemmy.world avatar

Wow, 400€ is good, I (or rather, my family) paid about 4000€, and that was even with passing every exam the first time and generally being a good student. But I’m from Germany, not Hungary. Still, that can surely not account for such a vast difference, can it?

rtxn ,

It can, easily. Hungary is cheap, both the wages and cost of living (although the ratio of the two is getting worse every day), compared to the rest of Europe and even many former Soviet republics. Foreign companies are flocking here for cheap, skilled labor. That 150,000 HUF was a significant part of the average gross monthly salary at the time.

budgard ,
@budgard@lemmy.world avatar

Your info is outdated. A the cost starts at 300k, assuming they only need the minimum required driving hours to pass. Which is rarely the case.

Signtist ,

My wife didn’t even do drivers’ ed, since she didn’t get her license until after high school. She just had to pass a test and got her license that day. I did the whole drivers’ ed thing, but it barely prepared me at all, and I ended up getting into 2 accidents while still in high school since I just didn’t have the experience to deal with unusual situations, and I locked up when I happened to get into a couple dangerous situations. Luckily we’re both experienced drivers by now 10+ years later, but yeah, those first few years are basically just learning how to drive by driving, being a danger to everyone.

KillingTimeItself ,

curious what those two accidents were caused by.

Signtist ,

Tailgaters. I was terrified that if I slowed down too quickly they’d smash into me, so one time I took a turn too fast and crashed into a car I couldn’t see because of a hedge, and the other I didn’t brake quickly enough to stop for a guy who suddenly realized he wanted to take a left turn right then. I eventually told myself that if tailgaters crash into me, that’s their problem for being so close behind me, and I just need to focus on what I’m doing.

KillingTimeItself ,

ah, yeah that sounds about right. Tailgaters are the worst shit dude.

RegalPotoo ,
@RegalPotoo@lemmy.world avatar

Learning to drive as part of high school is a super American thing that is really indicative of your attitudes towards driving and car ownership

PatMustard ,

It’s pretty standard in Britain to learn to drive when you’re 17. The testing seems to be much more rigorous than whatever happens in America though, and Anon would hopefully have lost their licence by now!

FiniteBanjo ,

I suppose it is technically possible for Anon to have been ruled to not be at fault for all of those accidents, but that’s like winning the lottery twice.

oatscoop ,

Unfortunately in huge swaths of America a driver’s license is practically a necessity – there are no realistic alternatives. A 30 minute to an hour drive to go to work or get groceries isn’t uncommon.

afraid_of_zombies ,

Umm my insurance gives me a discount if I take a refresher course every two years or so. It wasn’t really hard to do.

Iron_Lynx ,

NL here: driving education is something you have to do at driving schools, separate from regular schools. Getting your license requires a written exam (traffic rules, hazard recognition, stuff like that) and a practical exam, with both the practical and all lessons done in regular traffic. If you see a car with a blue square sign with a white L in it, that’s a student driver.

It also costs a few thousand euros to go through the process. Though getting your license for cars does often get you a license for some other vehicles. Mine came with a moped license.

FiniteBanjo ,

In the USA some states don’t require licensure for mopeds and similar pedal operated vehicles.

NikkiDimes ,

Getting your license requires a written exam (traffic rules, hazard recognition, stuff like that) and a practical exam, with both the practical and all lessons done in regular traffic.

Sounds the same as the US, although zero lessons required and costs like $45 or something.

Zehzin ,
@Zehzin@lemmy.world avatar

Brazil: You need to do psych and eyesight evaluations, 40 hours of classes, 20 hours of practical lessons ( you need separate practical lessons for cars, bikes, semis etc) and tests for both.

RedEyeFlightControl ,
@RedEyeFlightControl@lemmy.world avatar

There was a kid at my high school who was famous for wrecking 7 cars his senior year. Parents just kept buying him new ones. Like, brand new. Off the lot. It was insane.

MNByChoice ,

Don’t even have to change the oil at that rate.

Frozengyro ,

Sounds like a hell of a car salesman!

Zron ,

Kid’s parents probably bought that person their house.

carl_dungeon ,

It’s alright, he probably doesn’t need to know how to do a PIT maneuver or corner drifts :P

LordKitsuna ,

As someone that ended up being the teacher for the majority of my friend group. If you are struggling with the teaching more than likely you’re trying to give answers to their questions. Which is actually more unhelpful than helpful.

If they’re asking you how to make a certain kind of turn, or how to know how close they are to something. Just giving them an answer isn’t really useful because they don’t know how to arrive at that answer, instead you need to help them ask the correct questions.

" you didn’t quite make it in that parallel park, get out and take a look at where the car is. The back of the car is only just barely in the spot, so clearly you didn’t end up deep enough in the spot. What do you think you need to do to change that"

And have them keep practicing until they start to figure it out, it will seem frustrating for them in the moment but it’s genuinely more useful for them to try things on their own and attempt to reach the answer. than it is for them to be handed the answer, because then they understand not just the answer is, but the why of the answer. Why did I not make that turn, what does it feel like to not make the turn properly. Which is very important for being able to apply those same principles of vehicle control to other situations.

One of my favorite things to do with people is to set up some cones or a block of wood or whatever and just tell them to try and park as closely as possible to that object without touching it. I have them do that, get out, go look at how close they were to it, and then try again if they were nowhere near it until they can get it to Within less than a foot. Great way to help train sense of vehicle position.

joel_feila ,
@joel_feila@lemmy.world avatar

Yes this. We teach kids, slow down in the rain, but give no guidelines on how to calculate how much they should slow down. Hell I have ran into very few adults that even understand the concept of out driving your headlights.

SkyezOpen ,

My parents took me to a parking lot after a fresh snow and told me to give it a try. Learning how the car handles is yuge.

joel_feila ,
@joel_feila@lemmy.world avatar

Around here you be Lucky to get snow once every 4 years. So yeah good idea but not doable here.

TranscendentalEmpire ,

I did know people like this growing up, but they were always driving fucked up one way or another.

WaxedWookie ,

That’s bound to work out great with their history of crashing…

PM_Your_Nudes_Please ,

Yeah, people like this are why my (absolutely spotless record, not even a parking ticket) insurance is so high. They drive rates up for everyone around them, simply due to the fact that you can get hit by them through no fault of your own.

I dated a girl whose brother had four accidents on his record at the time. He was 17 years old, so just barely old enough to have his license, (in my area you can get your permit at 15, and license at 16). After his second totaled car, their parents told him he was buying his third car with his own money. For them, the first totaled car was a fluke; The second was a pattern. So he got a job at 16, bought a junker with his earnings, and totaled it six months later.

The worst part is that two of his accidents happened in the exact same circumstances. Slick roads from an ice storm. He takes one particular corner too fast, hits a patch of ice, and ends up totaled. He totaled two cars on the exact same icy corner, because he didn’t learn from the first accident.

hardcoreufo ,

New intern at work was talking about smashing 2 cars while speeding just weeks apart. Then starts talking about wanting to get a motorcycle. Kid isn’t going to make it to 25.

SkyezOpen ,

Who says natural selection is gone?

afraid_of_zombies ,

Can you get him to sign up to be an organ donor? My state lets you do it online.

KillingTimeItself ,

hey, at least he wont kill a woman and their child, just himself.

FlyingSquid ,
@FlyingSquid@lemmy.world avatar

Sounds like my wife’s asshole cousin who has been in so many crashes and totaled so many cars at this point that he’s had his license taken away and has to get around Indianapolis on a scooter. And he’s in his 20s.

I remember the day at a family function when the roads were icy him bragging to us about how he made it down to the function doing 80 on icy roads and sliding around everywhere but didn’t crash. Seriously, he was bragging about it as if it made him Mario Andretti.

His dad is a doctor, so I’m guessing he was paying that high insurance for quite some time, but no longer. His dad also bought him a Cadillac which, obviously, he totaled. I love his dad, he’s my GP, but he has a big blind spot when it comes to his son.

dejected_warp_core ,

doing 80 on icy roads and sliding around everywhere […] bragging about it as if it made him Mario Andretti.

This, at best, makes him kinda okay at Mario Kart.

But even that game forces you to give up if you crash too many times.

FlyingSquid ,
@FlyingSquid@lemmy.world avatar

It’s one of many reasons I can’t stand him.

The fact that his voice has two volume levels, secretly mutter something offensive and shout at the top of his lungs no matter how close he is to your ear, makes me hate even going to her family’s functions.

tiefling ,

Has he ever considered becoming a park ranger?

FlyingSquid ,
@FlyingSquid@lemmy.world avatar

Are they in the habit of muttering offensive things and yelling in people’s ears?

ccunix ,

It’s a Parks & Rec reference:

youtu.be/DDgnb9iAWtY?si=FSFG23XI2QPeG8PN

KillingTimeItself ,

bragging about that is like bragging about negligently discharging a gun in a crowd of people and miraculously, nobody gets hit.

FlyingSquid ,
@FlyingSquid@lemmy.world avatar

I wouldn’t put that past him either. And I hope he doesn’t have any guns, but I have a feeling he does and I have a feeling he’s pointed them at people as a “joke” before too.

KillingTimeItself ,

probably didn’t exercise trigger discipline when he did, and who knows whether it was loaded.

Suppose i should probably put up my premature simpsons “vision” and say that he is going to get fucked up some day.

SeaJ ,

I was actually surprised at how recent the bike infrastructure was in downtown Indianapolis so using a scooter to get around would not be bad in downtown at least.

FlyingSquid ,
@FlyingSquid@lemmy.world avatar

He’s in Greenwood. Less bike friendly.

therealjcdenton ,

I actually believe this is a real story

Akasazh ,
@Akasazh@feddit.nl avatar

I can believe this is not sarcasm

FlyingSquid ,
@FlyingSquid@lemmy.world avatar

If it isn’t a real story, there are plenty of real stories like it. There are just a disgusting number of people who are reckless drivers.

Almost no one in the town I live in uses their turn signals. It’s infuriating. I can’t tell you the number of times I’ve almost rear-ended someone who suddenly slam on their breaks in the middle of an intersection and turn off. I also live in a subdivision with no sidewalks and a speed limit of 25 mph. People are regularly walking their dogs and kids are everywhere. I see people flying down the curvy subdivision roads doing at least 50.

I’m amazed I haven’t heard about anyone getting killed.

Obi ,
@Obi@sopuli.xyz avatar

Worst part is if you did rear end them in that situation, you’re the guilty party for insurance etc.

FlyingSquid ,
@FlyingSquid@lemmy.world avatar

Exactly. It both pisses me off and terrifies me every single time. And it happens at least once almost every time I drive. I honestly don’t understand it. I’ve never been in a place where so many people refuse to use turn signals.

Zink ,

Many people need a near death experience to teach them respect for the mass and energy involved in driving.

I had a bad crash over a decade ago where somebody ran into me at low-ish speeds. It was head on though, and it was more than enough for me to remember for life. I wasn’t a bad driver or anything before that though.

KillingTimeItself ,

the best way to teach people how mass and inertia works in a car, is to put them in the passenger seat, get up to highway speeds, and then send the brake pedal to the floor.

They won’t be able to breathe.

tiefling ,

A lot of it is also people who know they shouldn’t drive but have no other choice. In the vast, vast, vast majority of the US, if you don’t have a car you can’t even go to the store or get a job.

scoobford ,

This is my partner. Has epilepsy, but no family, money, or insurance.

Ironically since they can only get part time work with flexible hours, they’re stuck in customer service, meaning when their hours get cut they have to doordash to make rent.

sexual_tomato ,

I believe it. A childhood friend of mine had totaled like 7 (very cheap) cars by the time he turned 25.

After a particularly brutal crash, he was diagnosed with epilepsy after having an absence seizure in the presence of an ER nurse.

Hasn’t wrecked since.

JargonWagon ,

Are you saying he drives better with epilepsy or that he hasn’t driven since?

sexual_tomato ,

He got medicated

JargonWagon ,

I still don’t have an answer to either of my questions though!

sexual_tomato ,

Medication meaning the epilepsy is now effectively treated and he hasn’t had a seizure since.

lepinkainen ,

There are the “Worst driver” TV shows. There are some real head cases in there.

MystikIncarnate ,

I don’t think this person should be driving. How do you get into 14 accidents?

I’ve been in… I think two? Ever?

I hope that image isn’t one of his… Like, it’s showing a pretty clear day, and he hit a stationary post. How do you mess up that badly?

paddirn ,

Any one of these “incidents” would scar me for life thinking about it and they’re just casual about it. “Most weren’t even bad accidents (hit a guy in a mall parking lot…”

dual_sport_dork ,
@dual_sport_dork@lemmy.world avatar

As your attorney I advise you to buy a bus pass.

UncleArthur ,

That’s a funny definition of ‘accident’.

Nommer ,

This. Most collisions aren’t accidents. Most incidents are from reckless behavior.

JargonWagon ,

"Constable official vocab guidelines state we longer refer to these incidents as ‘accidents’, they’re now ‘collisions’…Accident implies there’s nobody to blame."

  • Sergeant Nicholas Angel, Hot Fuzz
Leah96xxx ,

I remember in primary school, an actual police officer told us pretty much the same thing during one of those road safety classes. Road traffic collisions are almost never accidents, always incidents.

Iron_Lynx ,

My suggestion would be to:

  • Move to a place where not driving is a viable way of getting about. If you already live there, great!
  • Get a lifetime transit pass and consider getting a bicycle
  • Ditch your car and never look back
BirdyBoogleBop ,

From the amount of accidents they have had. Maybe start with walking and see how that goes first before getting anything with wheels.

menemen ,
@menemen@lemmy.world avatar

Yeah, I was about to suggest an e-bike or e-scooter. But probably better to just walk or take a bus/tram/metro.

KillingTimeItself ,

at least with a bike the likelihood that they get into a fatal accident is incredibly more apparent.

And hopefully they realize it.

NikkiDimes ,

Lifetime transit what now?

driving_crooner ,
@driving_crooner@lemmy.eco.br avatar

Easy, just move to Luxembourg.

reverendsteveii ,

www.marketwatch.com/…/cost-to-move-out-of-state/

Average cost of moving out of state - $4000-$12000

fortune.com/…/emergency-1000-expense-most-america…

Less than half of Americans can currently incur a $1000 expense right now

FontMasterFlex ,

This guy is the reason all of our rates go up.

Ultragigagigantic ,
@Ultragigagigantic@lemmy.world avatar

I saved money on my car insurance by not having a car. Who would want to leave the basement anyways?

Karyoplasma ,

Is there any hope for me?

Yes, public transport.

tiefling ,

Is this a European joke I’m too American to understand? /s

PriorityMotif ,
@PriorityMotif@lemmy.world avatar

Move to a city, it would be cheaper than this absurdity.

Sibbo ,

You can still take a taxi I’m sure, may just be more expensive than this guy’s insurance premiums.

SocialMediaSettler ,

Yes, there’s hope. Stop driving a car.

caboose2006 ,

As an American living abroad I can honestly say I don’t miss being required to drive everywhere. Haven’t owned a car in six years and there’s like 2 times a year I need a car so I just rent one. Way cheaper that way.

uis ,

I would recommend Mosgortrans, but I doubt person in question lives in Moscow. They provide their own cars:

https://bus-market.ru/zadmin_data/foto.image/166486.jpg

Evil_Shrubbery ,

So bendy!

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