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Thcdenton , in People warn about culture shock, but nothing prepared ne for this solid toilet paper roll in Vietnam

Here in Vietnam we use the whole toilet paper! That’s 65% more toilet paper per toilet paper!

JackbyDev , in Maybe this is better for everyone

Stop c/, it’s !

Fizz , in Maybe this is better for everyone
@Fizz@lemmy.nz avatar

I am enjoying watching vegans battle everyone. Most people are not prepared for a conversation on veganism. Vegans have been refining these arguments for a decade now and can present clear sharp moral stances with a counter to everything you have to say. They also have the easier side to argue.

Im not a vegan but I’m not talking shit to a vegan for fear of getting dragged into a veganism debate.

RecluseRamble ,

deleted_by_author

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  • breakingcups ,

    You replied to the wrong person

    RecluseRamble ,

    Damn, thanks, moved it.

    commie ,

    Vegans have been refining these arguments for a decade now and can present clear sharp moral stances with a counter to everything you have to say.

    this doesn’t make them right, and in fact often leads them to use easily debunked but rhetorically impressive arguments. that’s called sophistry.

    Fizz ,
    @Fizz@lemmy.nz avatar

    I disagree. The arguments vegans use are far more morally consistent and thought out than non vegans. Non vegans don’t reason themselves into the position and often don’t have a good justification for why they’re not vegan. When they are pushed they fall apart instantly.

    commie ,

    The arguments vegans use are far more morally consistent and thought out than non vegans.

    it’s true that vegans often think far more about the moral arguments around veganism. i, however, find the arguments to be unconvincing, and often sophistic.

    commie ,

    Non vegans don’t reason themselves into the position

    most of the time, maybe. but ex-vegans certainly do, among others.

    mathemachristian ,

    The rhetorically impressive and easily debunked argument:

    A) Slavery of sentient beings is wrong
    B) Animals are sentient
    ∴ Enslaving animals is wrong

    commie ,

    animal agriculture isn’t slavery. i don’t believe even vegans believe this syllogism rings true. if they did, we’d have a lot more harriet tubmans and a lot fewer tash petersons.

    commie ,

    i used a plural. it’s not just one argument. you’re not being very honest about the breadth of the arguments made.

    commie ,

    They also have the easier side to argue.

    no, they don’t

    Fizz ,
    @Fizz@lemmy.nz avatar

    Ok what’s the moral justification for eating meat?

    commie ,

    i don’t need one. there is no reason for me to believe it’s immoral. it’s probably amoral.

    naught ,

    Do you think that animals have consciousness? Do they feel pain, fear? Is it moral for you to inflict pain and fear on a conscious being? What about 1,000,000 of those beings? Would you butcher a toddler for meat? What about an animal with similar (or more) depth of emotion and cognition than that? Is it okay because they are other species? What about the deforestation caused by animal agriculture? What about the impact on climate change? I think there are many valid moral arguments that you are outright dismissing with a mere hand wave. I hope you give it some more thought

    commie ,

    Is it moral for you to inflict pain and fear on a conscious being?

    i suppose that depends on circumstances.

    commie ,

    What about the deforestation caused by animal agriculture?

    that’s bad. buying beans doesn’t fix it though.

    naught ,

    This is a strawman. No one is arguing buying beans fixes deforestation. However, if less meat is produced (ie less animals are raised for slaughter), then less deforestation will come as a result of the meat industry. If legume farming was destroying the rainforest, I’d have a problem with that too

    commie ,

    If legume farming was destroying the rainforest,

    turns out, a lot of the the deforested amazon is being used to grow soy.

    naught ,

    This was the case, and is certainly problematic. Take it a step further – who or what is consuming that soy? Animal agriculture, by and large. Therefore this is an argument for veganism, or at least reducing consumption.

    greenpeace.org/…/amazon-rainforest-deforestation-…

    commie ,

    the vast majority of the world’s soy (about 85%) is pressed for oil in an oil press for human use. the byproduct of the press is called soy meal or soy cake, and would be a waste product if we didn’t find a use for it. currently, almost all of it goes to feed livestock, (about 70% of the entire crop-weight).

    soybeans are used by people, and we feed the trash to livestock.

    naught ,

    Can you supply a source for this please?

    commie ,
    naught ,

    This seems to reinforce my point. Surely 75% of production is not simply wastage otherwise. This is even ignoring the fact that I provided a source showing that deforestation by soy is far less problematic than it used to be.

    commie ,

    the soybean is only 20% oil. we extract 17% of the global crop as oil. we must find something to do with that waste product.

    commie ,

    This is even ignoring the fact that I provided a source showing that deforestation by soy is far less problematic than it used to be.

    ok. i did “ignore” that. am i supposed to accolade every true statement?

    commie ,

    if less meat is produced (ie less animals are raised for slaughter), then less deforestation will come as a result of the meat industry.

    but just being vegan doesn’t cause this to happen.

    naught ,

    It’s simple economics. Less demand, less supply.

    commie ,

    that’s not causal.

    commie ,

    you are outright dismissing with a mere hand wave.

    i am not. i have been fighting with vegans, primarily on issues of the environment, for i think 8 or 9 years now. i have heard about every argument (though i’m always excited to find a new one!), and i have not been convinced by any of them that i have a duty to be vegan.

    commie ,

    if you have an argument that it is immoral, make it. i don’t care for your interrogative style.

    naught ,

    I like to give people questions to ponder and explore. I think my arguments are very clear from the questions I have raised. Suffering of conscious beings is a negative thing. Particularly the egregious conditions in which we raise our “meat”. This isn’t even considering the horrible conditions that humans suffer working in and around the meat industry.

    commie ,

    Suffering of conscious beings is a negative thing.

    can you support this claim?

    naught ,

    Can you supply a convincing argument for suffering? We are fully capable of living with much, much less meat production. Why should we continue to inflict pain on things which can experience it? It seems manifest to me

    commie ,

    Can you supply a convincing argument for suffering?

    i’m not saying it’s a moral good. i’m saying it’s amoral. as in it is neither good or bad in itself.

    naught ,

    We have agency over our actions and the ability to reduce the negative impacts we have on the world. We are unique in this ability, and we should exercise it

    commie ,

    it’s not clear that animal suffering is a negative.

    naught ,

    Would you kick a dog in the street? Shoot a cat with a bb gun? These are things that happen with frequency, but I wouldn’t do because I think that causing pain to another animal, senselessly, is a bad thing.

    Would you raise a chicken in complete darkness for its whole life? Would you raise a cow in a suffocatingly small pen among its excrement? Impregnate a cow constantly and steal its babies away for meat so you can continue to milk it until it dies? Animals feel pain. They communicate, they suffer, they mourn.

    If you can supply an argument that causing suffering of innocent animals is good/doesn’t matter, I’m all ears.

    commie ,

    Would you kick a dog in the street? Shoot a cat with a bb gun?

    no. these are cruel. practicing cruelty toward animals may create a habit, and end with practicing cruelty toward people, which would be immoral. it is best not to practice cruelty at all.

    naught ,

    Animal agriculture is necessarily cruel. It is efficient. By your logic, this cruelty is negative. It sounds like we are very close to agreeing, frankly

    commie ,

    Animal agriculture is necessarily cruel.

    i disagree.

    naught ,

    Please show me that factory farming is overwhelmingly not cruel

    commie ,

    cruelty would be inflicting pain for its own sake. in so-called factory farming, the pain is still only incidental. that is, if it were possible to create the same outputs with no additional inputs, and that process had no pain, there is no reason why a factory farming operation would prefer the painful process. so it is not cruel, it is only indifferent.

    naught ,

    So you are arguing that because a ruthless and uncaring system is responsible for creating massive suffering, it doesn’t matter? It’s awfully convenient that we don’t have to care about cruelty when it’s inherent in the system. People created these systems. We have the capacity to reduce the suffering. Why wouldn’t you want that?

    If dogs were raised in these conditions, people would be outraged (see korea, china, puppy mills, etc.) It’s a bit hypocritical, don’t you think?

    commie ,

    cruelty is intentional. think of battlefield amputation: it hurts, but the pain isn’t the point. the pain is only incidental.

    naught ,

    The systems by which we produce meat are intentional. Just because the people who set them up and benefit from them don’t care doesn’t mean these farms can exist outside morality.

    Inflicting pain on an animal to save its life is directly related to your point. Raising animals in objectively painful and squalid conditions so they can be slaughtered is not at all the same.

    You are equating saving the life of a human to the torture and slaughtering of an animals. They are not analogous

    commie ,

    I’m comparing incidental pain to incidental pain. it’s an apt analogy.

    commie ,

    If dogs were raised in these conditions, people would be outraged (see korea, china, puppy mills, etc.) It’s a bit hypocritical, don’t you think?

    you can see this is just an appeal to emotion, right?

    naught ,

    I am pointing out a dichotomy. I am appealing to your sense of logic. Why do you feel emotionally attached to dogs? Are they smarter than cows? Do they feel more or less? Is being cruel to a dog worse than being cruel to another animal?

    By your logic, dog meat farms are fine – amoral. The cruelty does not matter because it’s inherent.

    commie ,

    By your logic, dog meat farms are fine – amoral. The cruelty does not matter because it is inherent.

    not quite but very close. the suffering is not cruelty because it is inherent, and suffering alone does not change the morality.

    naught ,

    To willingly inflict unnecessary suffering on sentient beings is cruelty. This is a semantic argument that ignores reality

    commie ,

    what is the bar for necessity? you are introducing an ambiguity here.

    naught ,

    You do not need meat to survive

    commie ,

    why should survival be the bar?

    commie ,

    you don’t know what I need

    commie ,

    This is a semantic argument that ignores reality

    no, it’s not. but this is a thought terminating cliche

    naught ,

    You are literally arguing the definition of the word “cruelty” rather than dealing with the substance. I appreciate the engagement, but this is where I’ll stop. I hope you consider the conflicts in your worldview and work toward improving the world for yourself and the beings that inhabit it.

    commie ,

    if cruelty is what is wrong, we must agree on a definition.

    commie ,

    I hope you consider the conflicts in your worldview and work toward improving the world for yourself and the beings that inhabit it.

    YOU, TOO

    commie ,

    We have the capacity to reduce the suffering.

    how?

    naught ,

    Farm less meat. Farm meat in a way that minimizes suffering.

    commie ,

    I don’t farm any meat. if you do, I suppose that’s something that you can change

    naught ,

    Do you buy blood diamonds? Do you buy grass fed beef? Free range eggs? Do you buy fast fashion? You have agency over your choices. Just because you don’t slaughter the animals with your own hands doesn’t mean they are free from blood.

    commie ,

    You have agency over your choices.

    sure, but my choices don’t determine industry practices

    commie ,

    If you can supply an argument that causing suffering of innocent animals is good/doesn’t matter, I’m all ears.

    “innocent” here is an appeal to emotion, since we don’t regard non-human animals as moral agents.

    commie ,

    If you can supply an argument that causing suffering … is good/doesn’t matter

    sure. battlefield amputations cause suffering. sometimes it saves a life. it’s good.

    Enkers ,

    There’s obviously no way to prove this sort of statement, however every conscious being I’ve asked has told me they don’t like suffering. Additionally, almost all conscious beings specifically go out of their way to avoid suffering. I personally find this evidence sufficiently convincing.

    commie ,

    but pain in and of itself isn’t bad. it can be justified or unjustified.

    Enkers ,

    We’re not simply talking about pain, though. I like the painful sensation from hot peppers, for example, but I wouldn’t ever wish to subject myself to the systematic violence and awful conditions that farmed animals face.

    commie ,

    and I wouldn’t wish for you to be treated like an animal, either.

    commie ,

    I like to give people questions to ponder and explore.

    if you don’t wan to construct an argument that’s fine, but the socratic method isn’t terribly convincing for me and many others.

    naught ,

    You can’t appreciate a philosophical argument on a philosophical issue? I suppose that can be valid. It seems to me you don’t want to consider the ideas I have raised in good faith

    commie ,

    i’m willing to consider a fully formed argument. i’m not willing to be pestered by an endless interrogation.

    joonazan ,

    I think it is funny to make this an ethics discussion when there is plenty of evidence that bacon and sausage cause digestive tract cancers. Meat is also pretty expensive unless heavily subsidized.

    I think the main focus should be on educating people that a healthy diet contains a very small amount of meat even though the meat industry has managed to make people think it should be in every meal.

    Viking_Hippie , (edited )

    Most people are not prepared for interested in a conversation on veganism.

    Vegans have been refining these arguments preaching at people who didn’t ask for a decade now

    and can present clear sharp moral stances with a counter to everything you as a gleefully evil animal abuser no matter what you have to say.

    They also have the easier side to argue.

    That part is arguably true. Which is all the more reason for evangelical vegans NOT to have to behave like they’re missionaries educating savages every time they manage to trick a non-vegan into engaging with them.

    Dietary choices, religions, and dietary choices treated as if they were a religion are like penises: it’s fine that you have them and it’s super that you enjoy them, but you are not allowed to try to force them on me without my consent.

    JoMiran ,
    @JoMiran@lemmy.ml avatar

    I follow a plant based diet and agree with just about everything you wrote. I find that hardcore vegans can act like religious zealots yelling at little nine year old girls on the street for wearing a rainbow colored t-shirt.

    muix ,

    Your freedom ends, where the freedom of others begins. Why would that not include animals?

    commie ,

    Why would that not include animals?

    three separate reasons.

    they aren’t people. the don’t participate in our society. tehy don’t respect the freedoms of others.

    Beaver ,
    @Beaver@lemmy.ca avatar

    It’s meateaters who want to debate me all the time

    Soulg ,

    Absolutely a lie lol

    Foni ,

    Even flat-earthers have refined their arguments over the years, which doesn’t make them any less stupid. I have zero moral problems with my meat consumption and I’ll debate it with anyone.

    Fizz ,
    @Fizz@lemmy.nz avatar

    Flat earth is not at all comparable to Veganism. Vegans don’t need to make up anything to justify their side. They simply care for animals and therefore they don’t eat them.

    I’m not vegan so I’m not taking you up on that debate.

    Beaver ,
    @Beaver@lemmy.ca avatar

    Yup, vegans have science and studies to back up their claims while some meateaters have tradition and false equivalences to back up theirs.

    hemko ,

    Yeah. I do agree with vegans in that humans should transition to a diet that’s more sustainable and removes the animal suffering from the equation - and I do put in some effort to reduce my use of animal based products but: god damnit some people of that community are some seriously insufferable people to converse with

    slaacaa ,

    Exactly. There are ethical, environmental and health reasons to decrease humanity’s meat consumption. But screaming slurs with religous zealousy burning in your eyes will not win over the majority of the population. If you push people, they push back. Especially on morals, which is the least efficient argument to have a plant based diet - yet it’s the one some vegans like to push the most, as it makes them feel better about themselves.

    I know exactly what vegans know, about eg. dairy industry and the rape of cows. Seen many sickening documentaries, and I believe that in a 100 years we will look back on exploiting/killing animals for dairy/meat as we do now on slavery.

    Still, I eat meat.

    Much less meat than I did years ago, but I have no intention to fully stop, as the alternatives are not yet practical, affordable, or tasty enough for me. If a lot of people decreased their meat consumption, our planet would be much better - how about we take that first step together, instead of insulting each other?

    commie ,

    I am enjoying watching vegans battle everyone. Most people are not prepared for a conversation on veganism.

    I think it is good that they prefer to not have to argue about the validity of their choices, so stay in their own communities. going to c/vegan and being a shit head should be instance-wide bannable (even if it’s temporary). but when they are in other communities they should be respectful of others choices, not sandbag them with sophistry.

    Passerby6497 ,

    going to c/vegan and being a shit head should be instance-wide bannable (even if it’s temporary).

    Are we singling out c/vegan as snowflakes, or are we planning on making being a shithead in communities a banable offence?

    commie ,

    going into a community and being a shithead should be a temporary instance-wide ban, yea. don’t go into c/DBZ and say “funimation sucks. dbz sucks. dragonball sucks. you are a bunch of dumb babies”.

    MapleEngineer , (edited )
    @MapleEngineer@lemmy.world avatar

    No one hates vegans. Almost everyone hates vegan extremists. No one cares what you eat. You want to eat brown slop and claim its the best thing ever fill your boots. You want a vegan pet, get a rabbit. Just don’t try to shame everyone else into doing what you want and don’t feed a carnivore a vegan diet and no one will say anything.

    Beaver ,
    @Beaver@lemmy.ca avatar

    There are so many dishes you can make with plants and yet you choose the term “slop”

    MapleEngineer ,
    @MapleEngineer@lemmy.world avatar

    I’ve seen some of the pictures that have been posted in c/vegan. Some of them were literally brown slop. My family eats a number of vegetarian and vegan dishes along with those that contain meat. I don’t care what anyone wants to eat, even if it is brown slop.

    Beaver , (edited )
    @Beaver@lemmy.ca avatar

    You’re choosing the worst looking examples of plant-based foods to suit your claim, any soup could be considered slop.

    You can make salads, tacos, burgers, bread, desserts all with plants.

    MapleEngineer ,
    @MapleEngineer@lemmy.world avatar

    Yes, I’m definitely picking the worst examples to illustrate my point just as someone else used the word, “murder” (the killing of one human being by another) four times when referring to non-humans.

    I haven’t seen any posts come up in All where I said, “That looks really good. I would eat that.” I remember several photos of puddles of lumpy goo where I thought, “Ew”.

    I’ve eaten plenty of vegetarian and vegan meals that I thought were delicious. I have no problem with vegetarians or vegans. I have a real problem with extremists no matter how they mistakenly believe that they are absolutely superior.

    Kroxx ,

    Vegans have been refining these arguments for a decade now and can present clear sharp moral stances with a counter to everything you have to say

    Lol they fuck they can, they couldn’t even properly present and defend their own sources.

    lemm.ee/comment/14432604

    Stovetop , in Maybe this is better for everyone

    I like and admire vegans.

    I probably should be vegan because I am lucky enough to have the economic privilege to support that kind of lifestyle.

    But, as with many other communities centered around lifestyle topics, I would never want to participate in a vegan community. Lifestyle communities always become insular and echo-chambery, so you become a pariah if you don’t properly adhere to 100% of the community consensus behaviors.

    Not just vegans, but you see it happen with fitness communities, diy/home decor, a lot of hobbies, etc.

    mathemachristian ,

    Abstaining from animal murder and torture is admirable and something I should do OTOH some internet commenters are mean about it

    I wonder why they would be mean…

    mogoh ,

    @Stovetop did not say nor implied that he/she is not vegan, because of the community.

    mathemachristian ,

    I probably should be vegan … But … I would never want to participate in a vegan community.

    Seems pretty clear to me.

    Skua ,

    You can take part in something without taking part in the community about that thing, though. I play guitar a lot, but I don't frequent any guitar-based communities

    mathemachristian ,

    I’m fully aware, but “I’m not going vegan because they’re so annoying” is a pretty common excuse.

    DampSquid ,

    It is a common excuse. And yet you’re still being really annoying.

    mathemachristian ,

    Sorry for not being nicer to bloodmouths. Wouldst thou please ent’rtain the notion of not enslaving sentient beings?

    Tar_alcaran ,

    But blood is tasty…

    zalgotext ,

    Yeah that isn’t what they said though

    PeriodicallyPedantic ,

    Take the L dude.

    Not only is that clearly not the reason in this case, of what you say is true (and I believe it considering your behavior) that’s a pretty damning indictment about your collective personalities.

    Youre blaming OTHERS for leaving your cause because YOU’RE impossible to put up with. Pathetic. The literal definition of that meme where the dude puts the stick into his bike spokes and then cries about it.

    If you hate non-vegans so much then stop talking to them. Simple as.

    mathemachristian ,

    Im saying if someone stops being vegan because of what people say they dont actually hold the moral conviction that torture, rape and murder of any animal is wrong. I’m not crying about others leavinge “the cause” Im angry at the smugness and how readily people will accept any excuse in order to keep the literal orphan crushing machine going.

    PeriodicallyPedantic ,

    You’re a poison and you’re surprised people didn’t wanna get near you.

    You’re even getting mad at people who say that veganism is good and they want to work towards it.

    You’re pathetic.

    Stovetop ,

    I gave being vegan a go but stopped because I couldn’t keep up with it.

    Working 60-hour weeks makes it hard to meal prep, so I order out a lot, and there aren’t many vegan friendly dining options in my area.

    I ended up skipping a lot of family gatherings because Cantonese food isn’t all that vegan friendly. The one thing I never wanted to be was “that guy” who needed a special menu when invited to social events, so I thought it was easier to just withdraw. Being very lactose intolerant as a kid did not help in that regard when friends would want to go out for ice cream or eat birthday cake and I’d always feel like “that guy”.

    At a particularly low point for me, when I was eating the same garden salad for dinner for 2 weeks straight, I ended up having a bit of a breakdown. My therapist said that it is admirable to be vegan, but my behavior at the time was verging on having a martyr complex, and that I should stop punishing myself to make a point.

    I’m currently a pescatarian, which is the only concession I could make at present to let myself eat my family’s home-cooked meals that are usually made with a fish sauce of some sort. I’d like to try going vegan again at some point when I’m in a better mental space, but it’s something that some of us have to find our way into gradually.

    mathemachristian ,

    I don’t know you and if you’re being sincere about your harm reduction then that’s great. There is no ethical consumption under capitalism, the clothes I wear I made from human slavery, the produce from the exploitation of migrant workers. But people want to be blind to this so they can enjoy their treats in peace while there is a world of suffering around us, that’s what gets me so riled up. The wilful ignorance.

    Passerby6497 ,

    Then you need to go back to school for reading comprehension, because being a vegan and participating in a community about veganism are not the same thing, not even remotely close.

    mathemachristian ,

    and yet that seems to be the stated reason…

    Passerby6497 ,

    Only because you’re inferring a lot from a couple comments. You don’t know why they aren’t vegan (which could be for any number of reasons), the only thing you know, and are basing your entire assumptions on, is that they don’t want to hang out in spaces full of insufferable vegans.

    Aurenkin ,

    Only if you have poor reading comprehension.

    gedaliyah ,
    @gedaliyah@lemmy.world avatar

    Good job! This is the comment that made them turn vegan! Mission accomplished!

    mathemachristian , (edited )

    If your belief lives or dies because of some internet comment it won’t last anyway.

    Edit: as in, what sustains it is the actual moral implications of a non-vegan lifestyle. I was convinced to go vegan by internet comments like this.

    prettybunnys ,

    See here’s what’s really really funny, people over and over again say “man if the vegan people who were trying to convince me could just not be gigantic assholes about it then maybe it would be easier to join their community”

    And then you come along and are a gigantic asshole about it and prove the entire point.

    Super solid representation, 5/7, perfection.

    mathemachristian ,

    If you need people to be nice to you to convince you, you care more about appearances than the argument. If people being rude stops you from acting on something you actually believe in you won’t last a month as a vegan.

    Going vegan means changing your habits, giving up a lot of your treats with nothing in return. You will be the weird one at christmas that needs “special” catering, people have to choose restaurants based on your habits and you will be the butt of a lot of jokes simply because you care about animals not being enslaved. If you need people to be nice to you, and applaud you and make you feel all warm and fuzzy to keep that going you won’t last.

    The first lesson every vegan needs to learn is: there are no rewards and no one will compliment you. You are doing this out of your own conviction and not for anyone else.

    prettybunnys ,

    Well this has been great, thanks for being the point.

    mathemachristian ,

    good talk nice representation, really convinced me to be nicer to corpsemunchers going forward.

    gamermanh ,
    @gamermanh@lemmy.dbzer0.com avatar

    Hey, asshole, you’ve been an idiot the whole time on top of being a huge asshole

    The person didn’t say “Id go vegan but they’re assholes”, they said they’d not participate in a community with you dumbasses because of the behaviour people like you participate in

    Also your insults suck and make people sound cool as fuck

    mathemachristian ,

    Hey maybe if you people would be NICER to me I would entertain the thought that I was in the wrong

    gamermanh ,
    @gamermanh@lemmy.dbzer0.com avatar

    Not being an asshole to people is the default behaviour, to be dropped when someone breaks the social contract and does not uphold their end

    I get that your parents didn’t teach you basic manners but that’s not our job either. Learn how not to be a bitter piece of shit or be forever considered a perfect and pathetic example of OPs point

    mathemachristian ,

    well you just arent going to convince me by being rude you have to ask me nicely and maybe Ill think about it

    Snowpix ,
    @Snowpix@lemmy.ca avatar

    mathemachristian is a Hexbearite, them being an asshole isn’t at all surprising.

    mathemachristian ,

    My comment poking fun at the ridiculousness of double standard in tone policing got removed for trolling so let me be more explicit:

    There were already very rude jokes and comments about vegans in this thread. Rudeness against vegans is the norm and played for laughs, but god forbid a vegan returns the favor then suddenly everyone is crying for more civility.

    Also sincerely held beliefs should be communicated sincerely. No ones going to believe the dude that says “I think what you’re taking part in is a horrific injustice carried out on an industrial scale but to each their own I guess. Lets agree to disagree.”

    commie ,

    while i think you are actually starting to violate community rules here, i just wanna say i think your conduct up to this point has been fine.

    Mjpasta710 ,

    You’re a breatharian? No corpse munching from you.

    Are you pure enough that you feed the bacteria in your body without suffering?

    benignintervention ,

    This is precisely the circlejerking mentioned in the meme. Whether true or not, the community presents itself as unwelcoming and self-aggrandizing. These are not traits that easily convince people to listen to the cause.

    mathemachristian ,

    There’s nothing to listen to, either you believe animal ag is horrendous and unethical and act on it or you don’t. That’s it. No pretty pleases are going to convince someone they have to give up their beloved steak and cheese for nothing in return.

    benignintervention ,

    Then why are you trying so hard to explain yourself?

    naught ,

    Why are you so smug while plugging your ears and kicking your feet? Would you kill the animals you eat with your own two hands? I doubt that most would. We’re so far removed from the horrific violence of the industry and so inundated with farmed meat that people don’t even register what it actually is anymore. This isn’t even to mention that animal meat is carcinogenic, particularly in the amounts we eat. We don’t have a problem with people being anti-smoking or anti-violence, but as soon as “loud annoying” vegan asks you to reflect on the environment, people’s health, or the nightmarish violence we inflict on farmed animals, it’s absolute pandemonium from the meat eaters.

    IMO most don’t/won’t want to deal with the cognitive dissonance.

    benignintervention ,

    Sorry, I’m not going to participate if you’re going to be abusive.

    naught ,

    Abusive? 😂 I accept your apology.

    RedAggroBest ,

    asks

    That word is doing some heavy lifting. What does asking look like to you?

    naught ,

    What’s more apt? Demand? I literally never see a “militant” vegan emerge anywhere unless in a thread like this which demonizes a (diverse) group of people for giving a shit about animals and this planet. I think that most people who give thought to this problem will eventually realize that they aren’t primal hunters capable of taking the life of animals, let alone a new animal or more every day.

    IzzyJ ,
    @IzzyJ@lemmy.world avatar

    Two things. First, the fact most people arent hunting the animals thenselves really isnt shocking. Human society thrives on specialization. We dont farm or forage our own veggies either, we dont engineer our own cars, we dont construct our own houses. Thats kinda just how civilization works. Its not uniquely symptomatic of “carnists”.

    Secondly, you severely underestimate people. Primitive tribes, even if they were less effective at securing large amounts of meat, still hunted without any moral compunctions about the matter. Evolution is a slow thing, people who did that were just like us in any way that matters. Its not unreasonable to assume most people would adjust if you strip away the automation of society. Desperate people resort to cannibalism for goodness sake, I wouldnt put hunting past them.

    naught ,

    I am not remotely arguing against subsistence farming or hunting. Hell even hunting meat yourself that you consume. I wouldn’t do it willingly, but that doesn’t make it inherently immoral.

    People are detached from the method of making their meat. It is far more unpleasant than most want to think about. The animals are mistreated. It’s hard to argue they aren’t. That’s really the point

    I am underestimating no one. I do not remotely doubt humanity’s capacity for violence and depravity. I am saying that we as people can choose to minimize harm and violence (to each other, animals we farm, etc)

    edit: I should also point out that we are FAR past the point of “subsistence” with out meat consumption. We consume more meat now than ever before. There are many costs associated with this to our health, the animals we eat, the planet …

    Aphelion ,

    Right, we get it, but if you tried attracting people to veganism with amazing recipes, and annecdotes of how much healthier you feel, people might come have a conversation and try making some vegan food. Instead these communities drive anyone non-vegan right out the door.

    What’s the expression? Honey will catch more flies?

    mathemachristian ,

    Reformism doesn’t work. People that are vegan because it’s “actually really good food” or looking for applause for “saving the planet” stop being vegan once it becomes too inconvenient. Because their mindset is that they are doing something good and you can stop doing good things or balance them out with other good deeds and there is an inherent expectation of a reward for being good.

    Not supporting slavery and murder however should be the norm, not something that feels like a burden. Being vegan is not doing something good, but not being vegan is doing something evil. This is our position. If someone can’t accept that what their doing is evil but needs to be asked nicely not to kill the screaming orphan who never got to meet his mom because we wanted to steal her milk then they won’t accept that it is an actual real evil that is taking place. It will remain a theoretical. But there really is a room where these orphans are brought to be murdered. A person murdering them. And a mother who screamed bitterly over losing their child. It is a real evil and being polite about it masks the horror taking place not to mention is completely insincere since we aren’t interested in debating or in weighing pros and cons. This isn’t a debate like how should we reduce plastic accumulation or the carcinogenic properties of red meat. There is an evil inherent to not being vegan. Fuck the non-vegans.

    EndlessApollo ,

    Animal agriculture isn’t slavery. I can tell your exact skin tone by the fact you had the gall to make that comparison cx

    mathemachristian ,

    Stealing labor while keeping the laborers alive at the barest minimum possible and trading them as property is slavery.

    commie ,

    comparing slaves to animals is what slavers do.

    mathemachristian ,

    The bourgeoisie make no difference between me and the cow, except for the commodity we produce. They will push to extract our laborforce at the exact cost it requires to sustain it. The cow is a comrade and fighting for their rights is fighting the system that looks to enslave us as well. If you can’t see how the methods in husbandry are used against us then have a look at the holocaust.

    commie ,

    If you can’t see how the methods in husbandry are used against us then have a look at the holocaust.

    the holocaust was abhorrent, in part, precisely because it treated people like animals. treating animals like animals is fine.

    commie ,

    Not supporting slavery and murder however should be the norm

    it is. most people oppose slavery and murder.

    commie ,

    Going vegan means changing your habits, giving up a lot of your treats with nothing in return. You will be the weird one at christmas that needs “special” catering, people have to choose restaurants based on your habits and you will be the butt of a lot of jokes simply because you care about animals not being enslaved. If you need people to be nice to you, and applaud you and make you feel all warm and fuzzy to keep that going you won’t last.

    this should be on a billboard.

    mods_mum ,

    You must be exhausting to be around. sheesh

    davepleasebehave ,

    thing is, it’s a philosophy of empathy and compassion. you don’t really join a.commmunity. there are no V cards I’m afraid.

    prettybunnys ,

    This discussion is literally about the vegan community here on Lemmy

    davepleasebehave ,

    I thought it was more about abuse.

    mods_mum ,

    Having a reasonable discussion with these people is like trying to play a game of chess with a pigeon. They’ll topple all the pieces, shit on the board and claim victory.

    mathemachristian ,

    Gonna copy large chunks of my last comment because no ones there to stop me.

    This isn’t a debate like how should we reduce plastic accumulation or the carcinogenic properties of red meat. Not supporting slavery and murder should be the norm, not something that needs to be argued for at length. Being vegan is not doing something good, but not being vegan is doing something evil. This is our position. If someone can’t accept that what their doing is evil but needs to be asked nicely not to kill the screaming orphan who never got to meet his mom because we wanted to steal her milk then they won’t accept that it is an actual real evil that is taking place. It will remain a theoretical. But there really is a room where these orphans are brought to be murdered. A person murdering them. And a mother who screamed bitterly over losing their newborn. It is a real evil and being polite about it masks the horror taking place not to mention is completely insincere since we aren’t interested in debating or in weighing pros and cons. It’s a horrific injustice and we will talk about it as such. There is an evil inherent to not being vegan. Fuck the non-vegans.

    commie ,

    this is pretty much just appeal to emotion.

    mathemachristian ,

    Here is another one: That meat on your plate comes from an animal that could feel. It had a whole life full of feelings and dreams. It might’ve liked some food but disliked other, it probably had friends, it had a mom and a dad, it was loved. Then they killed it, shipped it, you cooked it and ate it.

    commie ,

    very good. have you considered creative writing as a career?

    IzzyJ ,
    @IzzyJ@lemmy.world avatar

    If belligerent internet comments actually convinced you to change your diet in such an inconvenient manner for no reward but moral superiority, you are not like the people you’re trying to convince. Abusers and cults love bomb because its more effective on a random sample of people

    mathemachristian , (edited )

    If one believes that the mother losing her newborn cries about it for days and that this is happening on an industrial scale that person will be very indignant about such a horrific injustice. That’s what convinced me, this is a real injustice and not being angry about it would be insincere

    IzzyJ ,
    @IzzyJ@lemmy.world avatar

    Convincing people to be ethical past the point of inconvenience requires insincerity, yes. The average person is a horrible human being

    cheddar ,
    @cheddar@programming.dev avatar

    That’s not the goal. They attack people because that makes them feel better. Animals? Who cares. Definitely not them.

    jdr ,

    I’m a cow and this made me feel better about my fate

    davepleasebehave ,

    yes. it is the vegans who really hate animals!

    mods_mum ,

    it definitely seems so sometimes

    davepleasebehave ,

    and never the people who fund an industrial killing machine for food we don’t actually need and will kill us both individually and collectively.

    cheddar ,
    @cheddar@programming.dev avatar

    What I said is that you don’t help animals with your hysteria. So I can conclude vegans struggle with logic. At least in your case.

    davepleasebehave ,

    brutal take down. nice

    Beaver ,
    @Beaver@lemmy.ca avatar

    Nope, thats projection when carnists refuse to read all the studies that supports the plant-based diet and act rude when they realize their actions cause harm.

    Beaver ,
    @Beaver@lemmy.ca avatar

    Nah, facts dont care about feelings. Being vegan a day prevents the death of an animal.

    davepleasebehave , (edited )

    I was going to stop torturing animals, but some mean vegan said some words that hurt my feelings.

    So now I’m going to eat two burgers!

    chortle!

    IzzyJ ,
    @IzzyJ@lemmy.world avatar

    I think I will actually do this now just to prove you wrong

    davepleasebehave ,

    legendary!

    Beaver ,
    @Beaver@lemmy.ca avatar

    Meat eaters will be convicted for eating meat in the future.

    IzzyJ ,
    @IzzyJ@lemmy.world avatar

    Lmfao. You gonna be vegan Stalin or something?

    Beaver ,
    @Beaver@lemmy.ca avatar

    Stalin only cares for himself.

    By holding meat eaters accountable for the crimes of eating the flesh of others we prevent the deaths of other animals.

    BeigeAgenda ,
    @BeigeAgenda@lemmy.ca avatar

    I’m just keeping an eye out for good recipes.

    Beaver ,
    @Beaver@lemmy.ca avatar

    I like that approach.

    Stovetop ,

    Let me know if you find any favorites, I am down for anything easy and quick if they’re out there (as long as it’s not more rice and beans).

    ShinkanTrain ,

    Just don’t interact with communities you dislike. It’s a pretty bad excuse to blame other people for your decisions.

    ngwoo ,

    so you become a pariah if you don’t properly adhere to 100% of the community consensus behaviors.

    You don’t pocket mulch?!

    prettybunnys ,

    I’m a level 5

    pkmkdz , in Zero, an Android app that does nothing

    Ackshually… it starts and quits, so it does something On the other hand it reminds me of this absolute classic… thing

    Jimbo , in Maybe this is better for everyone
    @Jimbo@yiffit.net avatar

    Yeah I respect vegans, and applaud them for their life choices. I’m not in a position to, or willing at this point to become a vegan, but I looked at their community… Mostly insults when referring to any meat eater. Yeah, I respect them a fair bit less now.

    davepleasebehave ,

    deleted_by_moderator

  • Loading...
  • commie ,

    Person who pays for animals to be tortured

    no one does that

    BruceTwarzen ,

    You can keep telling yourself that if it helps.

    commie ,

    if you have evidence to the contrary, you should present it.

    fuckingkangaroos ,

    I’m guessing they mean factory farming

    commie ,

    have you ever paid anyone at a factory farm? i haven’t, and i don’t think most people have.

    commie ,

    in torture, the pain is the point. while i think factory farming is too ambivalent about suffering, i also believe the suffering is only incidental, not intentional. it’s not torture.

    davepleasebehave ,

    perhaps you could explain that subtle difference to the animals going through the system of abuse.

    Im sure it would brighten up their days no end to realise the pain they are experiencing is not the point of the system and that therefore, they are not being tortured.

    commie ,

    perhaps you could explain that subtle difference to the animals

    i don’t think i can, no. but propagandists can choose to stop using emotionally charged and incorrect terms.

    davepleasebehave ,

    funny that a person called commie doesn’t understand exploitation.

    commie ,

    this is just posturing and rhetoric. i have no problem with most forms of exploitation (this is true of most people i think). my problem is unfair, or even non-consensual, exploitation of other people.

    davepleasebehave ,

    Nice one comrade!

    commie ,

    it is nice to have an examined world-view and be able to defend it, even against the most sinister sophists and zealots.

    lowleveldata ,

    Yes that’s how you have a conversation. Good job.

    Snowpix ,
    @Snowpix@lemmy.ca avatar

    Dave, in fact, could not behave and could not resist a personal attack.

    davepleasebehave ,

    is it very personal?

    finitebanjo ,

    What part of insulted their individual lifestyle seems like business to you?

    davepleasebehave ,

    they said that they pay to have things killed on their behalf.

    if they say it, then it ain’t very personal is it?

    Kusimulkku ,

    “It’s not a personal attack if you provided me with the information I used to attack you”

    davepleasebehave ,

    rather than paying for an actual physical attack on an animal.

    Kusimulkku ,

    I’m just saying that your logic over it not being a personal attack is funny.

    davepleasebehave ,

    I get your point, but I’m still not really sure how personal it is.

    Beaver ,
    @Beaver@lemmy.ca avatar
    SkyeStarfall ,

    Where is the border between acceptable and not acceptable lifestyle? The animals can’t consent. If you beat your wife, is that also an individual lifestyle we have to respect? What if you neglect and beat your pets, for a closer example? What if your individual lifestyle is dumping trash into the ocean?

    finitebanjo ,

    Luckily we pass laws to regulate unacceptable lifestyles.

    Go pass some laws. Instead of trying to be a vegan vigilante, try to organize and show compassion to people. Even if that means being belittled in the process, you’ll have the moral high ground.

    Leate_Wonceslace ,
    @Leate_Wonceslace@lemmy.dbzer0.com avatar

    Do you not understand what the word “personal” means, or are you confused about this usage of attack?

    davepleasebehave ,

    maybe you could enlighten me

    Leate_Wonceslace ,
    @Leate_Wonceslace@lemmy.dbzer0.com avatar

    Alright. If I were to say something like “You’re a dumbass, and have no room to criticize.” that’d be a personal attack because I’d be making a (metaphorical) attack on your person (character). Hope that helps.

    davepleasebehave ,

    sure. I did not say anything like that. I just reminded the poster that they pay people to abuse and kill animals.

    Is that really so personal?

    Exatron ,

    Your performative concern for animals is noted.

    davepleasebehave ,

    I’ll put those performative points into my V card for later use.

    IzzyJ ,
    @IzzyJ@lemmy.world avatar

    And this is why its impossible to have a conversation with yall. Even if you believe this, if you are hostile to outsiders, you just guarantee theyll want to do it more. Cult deprogrammers have to be real nice and mostly just listen for a reason

    Glytch ,

    Says the person who pays for humans to be tortured they can have a phone.

    See? We can all make disingenuous, insulting statements; but that’s not productive in getting people to listen to us.

    davepleasebehave ,

    depending on how you see things, abuse is part of any system. that said, humans are at least able to be a part of the system and have dialogue with the system. there is potential to effect a system.

    this cannot be said for a 4 day old calf being taken away from the mother for slaughter just so the mother can continue to lactate and little fat Jonny can have his full fat on his frosties again.

    lastly, it’s hardly insulting to remind people that they pay for disgusting levels of animal abuse.

    Beaver ,
    @Beaver@lemmy.ca avatar

    When you know what occurs in factory farming. Its hard to continue to be nice to others who have the ability to stop supporting the cruel system with their money.

    Its often easier to go vegan than people initially believe. You can do it.

    IzzyJ ,
    @IzzyJ@lemmy.world avatar

    We really dont though. It is simply not realistic to fight for an ethic that requires the overwhelming majority to be hyperrational in their ethics. Human nature tends toward cruelty, and Ive yet to see a vegan have recourse for that.

    Setting aside the whole plants feel pain too bit

    Beaver ,
    @Beaver@lemmy.ca avatar

    People are cruel often because of the systems they’re raised in. I could show you many instances where kindness is punished in order to maintain the status quo of hierarchical systems. Humans can be much more ethical if we chose to be.

    Plant react to stimuli however they do not have the nervous system to process pain like the way cows and pigs do.

    IzzyJ ,
    @IzzyJ@lemmy.world avatar

    And yet people default to those systems and have since the agricultural revolution.

    As for plant stimuli, who are you to say that doesn’t constitute pain? They sure communicate it to those around them, cut grass smell and all that. Does an ant not feel pain because it mostly just responds to and sends out pheromones? Bit of a “my red is your blue” argument you’re making.

    Beaver ,
    @Beaver@lemmy.ca avatar

    By eating plant-based you reduce the amount of plants that are grown for human consumption since you skip the farm animals completely “if you’re so concerned about plants feeling pain”

    You wouldn’t kick a person and justify that logic saying “but plants feel pain every time you walk on grass”

    wesker , in Breakfast time!!!
    @wesker@lemmy.sdf.org avatar

    This has to be breaking at least a few laws.

    subignition ,
    @subignition@fedia.io avatar

    Needs crossposted to /m/[email protected]

    synapse1278 ,
    @synapse1278@lemmy.world avatar

    This is a 3rd degree food-crime, definitely premeditated.

    ItzzMe ,
    @ItzzMe@midwest.social avatar

    Right on it

    SSJMarx , in Maybe this is better for everyone

    Hexbear’s largest and most site-threatening drama was over its vegan comm (and I think the mods of Reddit’s vegancirclejerk?). It ended with the site requiring content warnings on all pictures of meat.

    But you know what? They were right. Vegans are basically right about everything, and the reason me and my fellow omnis get our jimmies so rustled by them is because we fucking know they’re right.

    Leate_Wonceslace ,
    @Leate_Wonceslace@lemmy.dbzer0.com avatar

    The part that bothers me is that the most toxic members of the community tend to be boosted. Although I can agree that vegans are right about most things, I would argue that there’s lots of things vegans are wrong about, like arguing that cultivated meat is inviable/immoral/etc. Maybe what bothers you most is that you view your own lifestyle as immoral, but not everyone agrees with you, and you shouldn’t presume to speak for everyone.

    Enkers ,

    Speaking from experience, I really resented all the “toxic vegans” I experienced while I was becoming vegan, but looking back I’m quite thankful for them. The reason they seemed so toxic was because they kept highlighting my own moral inconsistencies. This raised cognitive dissonance which felt like a personal attack. It’s an unpleasant experience.

    Of course there were also a lot of “good vegans” I’m thankful of as well who would patiently answer any of my questions, and this is the approach I try and take myself (although sometimes I don’t succeed, I’m sure).

    Beaver ,
    @Beaver@lemmy.ca avatar

    The “toxic members” are probably the most outspoken ones just like how the feminists are viewed as extremists.

    Leate_Wonceslace ,
    @Leate_Wonceslace@lemmy.dbzer0.com avatar

    No; saying anyone who eats meat loves torturing animals and berating people who want to reduce meat in their diet for not doing enough isn’t helpful.

    Beaver ,
    @Beaver@lemmy.ca avatar

    People need to be held accountable for actions that cause others harm.

    Leate_Wonceslace ,
    @Leate_Wonceslace@lemmy.dbzer0.com avatar

    Oh wow, what a completely irrelevant point to bring up.

    IzzyJ ,
    @IzzyJ@lemmy.world avatar

    Speak for yourself

    db2 , in Level 5 Gyatttttt

    Is there an AI version of the song though?

    httperror418 ,

    Wait what? There’s a song, frfr?

    Baalial ,

    Please say you’re joking. Even if you’re not, for my mental health, just fucking lie to me.

    httperror418 ,

    I myself have no idea, but some of the words I sort of get, whilst others are just ludicrous 🤣

    Baalial ,

    🤦‍♂️ it’s utter nonsense to the tune of “In The End” by Linkin Park. I’m officially old lol

    uranibaba ,

    I remember the song but I absolutely did not make the connection.

    Now, what the heck is the last line? Kagi gave me this, but I still have no idea.

    Based on the information provided, the phrase “skibidi ohio rizz” refers to the following:

    “Skibidi” is a reference to a series of surreal videos on YouTube featuring an “army of human-headed toilets fighting a war against another army of camera-headed people”. It is used to describe something that is “nonsense, to the point of absurdity”.

    “Ohio” in this context means “weird or bad”. It is used to describe something that is “cursed” or extremely strange and funny.

    “Rizz” is short for “charisma”. So “Ohio rizz” refers to “weird, cursed, or strange flirting behavior”.

    Putting it all together, “skibidi ohio rizz” means someone has terrible, bizarre, or uncool flirting skills.

    In summary, the phrase “skibidi ohio rizz” is a piece of Gen Alpha slang that refers to someone exhibiting very strange and awkward flirting or social behavior.

    brejela ,

    Pretty sure I just had a stroke

    db2 ,

    You’re correct, but the only possible response in gen a slang is “bruh.”

    Baalial ,

    The key is in the words “utter nonsense”. Prior to Gen alpha slang was always rooted in reality - a word repulsed, or an abstraction, or a phonetic recreation of a regional pronunciation. Gen alpha is gonna make whole new sounds and apply them to Concepts and whole phrases and thoughts. Technically, this is expanding the English language, but it’s going to look phenomenally stupid in the process.

    Semi_Hemi_Demigod , in Happy Labor Day
    @Semi_Hemi_Demigod@lemmy.world avatar

    Dey show dem inyalowda who really in charge, sasa key

    Rhaedas ,

    “You can tell a lot about a place by how they treat their people.” – Amos Burton

    HarbingerOfTomb ,

    ✊_Beratna_

    Ilovethebomb , in Maybe this is better for everyone

    Don’t let the door hit you on the way out.

    I had a look at the community yesterday, every post bar one was about vegan cat food for the last week. They’re not taking this well at all.

    RecluseRamble ,

    I just had a look myself after your comment and cannot confirm your claim at all. There are, understandably, quite a few posts about this debacle and the future of their sub but more than half is stuff related to veganism not related to cats.

    Emmie , (edited )
    @Emmie@lemmings.world avatar

    Cats can thrive on vegan diets perfectly well. Mine is still with me since like 4 years and didn’t eat a single animal protein in that time…

    It’s called being a responsible human and minimizing suffering.

    Ilovethebomb ,

    Four years isn’t that long, cats can live up to twenty years.

    FatherGascown , in Maybe this is better for everyone

    I mean, they are vegans. Their brains withered long ago.

    merthyr1831 , in Maybe this is better for everyone

    Lemmy dot world definitely doesn’t circlejerk, no siree.

    HRDS_654 ,

    I mean, they’re the biggest instance, of course there is going to be circle jerking, but it also has more dissenting voices to push back against people who are just plain wrong.

    DragonTypeWyvern ,

    Lol

    Sibbo , in Oil

    Not greenwashing but pinkwashing

    RememberTheApollo_ ,

    Looks like an anti acid medication label color palette.

    hungryphrog , in America's Smartest Man Finds Something Interesting

    A democracy that is only democratic for the select few? I wonder what that’s called…

    UnderpantsWeevil OP ,
    @UnderpantsWeevil@lemmy.world avatar

    Um… aktuly its called a Constitutional Republic.

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