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Is "female" offensive?

I am not a native English speaker and I have sometimes referred to people as male and female (as that is what I have been taught) but I have received some backlash in some cases, especially for the word “female”, is there some negative thought in the word which I am unaware of?

I don’t know if this is the best place to ask, if it’s not appropriate I have no problem to delete it ^^

TheBananaKing ,

Female as an adjective is perfectly fine.

A female patient, a female politician, a female customer, etc. That’s the best way to refer to those.

What’s bad is using ‘female’ as a noun: “A female. "

In general, you just don’t use adjectives-as-nouns to refer to people. You don’t call someone “a gay”, “a black”, or “a Chinese”. That is offensive, and “a female” has the same kind of feel.

(there are exceptions to the above: you can call someone ‘an American’ or 'A German”, but not “A French”. I don’t understand why - if you can’t feel your way, best just avoid it)

Now, you could get around it by calling someone “a female person” - except that we already have a word for “female person”, and that’s “woman”. And to go out of your way to avoid saying “woman” makes you sound like some kind of incel weirdo, and you don’t want that.

Silentiea ,

except that we already have a word for “female person”, and that’s “woman”. And to go out of your way to avoid saying “woman” makes you sound like some kind of incel weirdo

Sounds more like a terf or “gender critical” person, but maybe that’s just my experience.

TheBananaKing ,

Fair.

maryjayjay ,

“the suspect is a six foot, white male”

Sounds fine to me

Queen___Bee , (edited )

I think that’s because the descriptors come after the noun in reporting. Similar to how documentation is done for other professions, like healthcare. If it’s out of the context of reporting, or other situations listed in the site below, it sounds grammatically strange or rude.

myenglishgrammar.com/…/adjectives-function-as-nou…

Source: I’m in healthcare.

https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc-sa/4.0/legalcode.en

intensely_human ,

“the suspect is a six foot, white male"

think that’s because the descriptors come after the noun in reporting

No they don’t. The word “male” is the noun here.

Why did people upvote that?

Silentiea ,

Because it’s still acting as a descriptor rather than an identifier, despite playing the syntactic role of a noun instead of an adjective. It’s more about semantics in this case than syntax.

intensely_human ,

No it is playing the syntactic role of a noun. An object is a noun.

Silentiea ,

I know it’s playing the syntactic role of a noun, that’s what I said. But it’s playing the semantic role of a descriptor. The “thing” being described here is a suspect, one that is white and also male, as opposed to a male who is white and also suspected.

Syntactically, the word male was a noun. But semantically, it’s still just describing the suspect, rather than identifying the thing to be described.

irmoz ,

“Suspect” is the noun

Zagorath ,
@Zagorath@aussie.zone avatar

Both are nouns. Suspect is the subject, male is the object. You could replace it with, for example “the suspect is a cat”, and I think we can all agree “cat” is a noun. “six foot” and “white” are the adjectives in that sentence.

humorlessrepost ,

Both are nouns there. Suspect is the subject.

intensely_human ,

So you don’t think this argument would hold up if they said “Police are searching for a six foot white male”?

Paradachshund ,

“I was just visiting my friend, a six foot white male”

A little weirder. Context is everything.

ArcaneSlime ,

Well yeah, why would I need a description of your friend unless it pertains to an upcoming story, and why not use his name if you know it? The cop can’t usually say “It was Steve what done it” because most places aren’t Mayberry.

Silentiea ,

Because the police never try to dehumanize “suspects” and “perpetrators”.

mdhughes ,
@mdhughes@lemmy.ml avatar

Cops (ACAB) are not a good example for moral treatment of others.

vzq ,

Besides, this is basically jargon. That has its own set of rules.

CanadaPlus ,

And to go out of your way to avoid saying “woman” makes you sound like some kind of incel weirdo, and you don’t want that.

I’d just like to emphasise this. It’s not that using a different term is intrinsically bad, it’s just that the people who tend to do it are not cool and you don’t want to look like you’re associated with them.

Dirk ,
@Dirk@lemmy.ml avatar

It’s ridiculous that a perfectly fine word is seen as insult used by a certain type of people.

CanadaPlus ,

If it has negative connotations, it’s not a perfectly fine word.

Pulptastic ,

Negative connotations to whom? If those described do not like the term it should not be used. Basic human dignity, just like using one’s preferred pronouns.

CanadaPlus ,

I don’t think your disagreeing with me here.

Silentiea ,

Welcome to language my friend. Always has, always will.

vzq ,

It’s ridiculous that a perfectly fine word is seen as insult used by a certain type of people.

That’s how association works

I can have the best and most lasting solution to a problem ever, but my company still won’t allow me to put “THE FINAL SOLUTION” in marketing copy.

And they shouldn’t.

Dirk ,
@Dirk@lemmy.ml avatar

So you say … The word describing a biological fact, and a national socialist euphemism for mass murdering millions of people are the same?

vzq ,

So you say … The word describing a biological fact, and a national socialist euphemism for mass murdering millions of people are the same?

Do you even hear yourself?

Engage in good faith or sod off.

jjjalljs ,

The VP of product messaged me a couple weeks ago after some back and forth about some work. She asked if I had some time to talk about the final solution. I went “uhhhh so long as we don’t call it that”

I’m like 90% sure she had no idea why that phrase is reserved.

Quastamaza ,

Meanwhile, you are perfectly ok with judging someone based uniquely on which term they tend to use? Oh my, mankind is really going down the drain…

CanadaPlus ,

Yes. Life is a game of trying to guess which people are full of shit. If they say “feeeemales” and then turn out to be fine, great, I’ll probably give them a heads up not to do that.

Was there a non-judgmental era I’m unaware of?

Quastamaza ,

Ok, fine, I’ll “try to guess” too then, if that’s your game. Goodbye!

CanadaPlus ,

Bye-bye.

NikkiDimes ,

Yes. Language can show what sort of media people consume and the sorts of groups they socialize with, especially when it comes to the internet.

If someone is using incel language, there will be a strong initial assumption they spend time within incel circles consuming toxic content like Andrew Tate and will remain under that assumption until proven otherwise. Sorry, not sorry?

dandroid ,

When I was growing up, saying woman was offensive, because it made people feel old. So we would say “girl”. But now It’s flipped. Saying “girl” makes people feel too young, apparently.

I’m still kind of adjusting. The word “woman” still feels icky to me because I was berated for saying it as a kid.

CanadaPlus ,

Huh, interesting. Which generation are you from, out of curiosity?

dandroid ,

I’m a millennial. It could also have been regional as well, I have no clue.

pr06lefs ,

Interesting point with adjectives vs nouns.

‘a Frenchman’ would be more correct than ‘a French’. Because French is only an adjective, while American and German are both nouns and adjectives. But Frenchman is not gender neutral like German or American.

Could go with Francophone, but that’s any french speaking person so that includes canadians, africans, etc.

And, it would seem to make sense to go with Frank, but the Franks were originally germans, then expanded their territory to include France, and the name stuck there but not in their original territory, so is it really correct to refer to the French as Franks? Since no one does it, I would guess not.

Mr_Blott ,

includes canadians

Pffft barely, mon ami 😂

Silentiea ,

Québécois then.

amelia ,

Not a native speaker here. Would a French woman also be 'a Frenchman’s and if not, how would you refer to a French woman correctly?

locuester ,

3 years ago, “man” in that context was considered gender neutral. More recently tho a lot of stink is being made about little language things like this. Theres no replacement word to use.

Silentiea ,

Frenchwoman and Frenchperson are both ridiculous enough to try, but maybe go with Frenchie just to see if they’ll punch you.

Vanth , (edited )
@Vanth@reddthat.com avatar

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    amelia ,

    Wow, this actually sounds very plausible.

    locuester ,

    Sensitivities during Covid ran high. A lot of things changed then. For instance in the software world removing the name “master” from git usage, and on the TV Show Survivor, the host not saying his famous line “come on in guys”. At the same time pronouns became a huge thing, and these seemingly gender specific or sensitive word terms were targeted.

    You are correct, there was a round of this in the 90s or so, where job titles like “waitress”, “stewardess”, “policeman” were all adjusted. I see that as a very different round of language change.

    Vanth , (edited )
    @Vanth@reddthat.com avatar

    deleted_by_author

    •
    locuester , (edited )

    Yeah, 2020 is the time period I’m referring to. I had never heard of it being a thing until George Floyd and BLM movement in 2020, then GitHub changed in response to that.

    I’ve been in IT for 35 years. And I never heard a single negative thing about branch names and master/slave terminology until 2020.

    Perhaps you think that was set aside because IDE hard drives are dead.

    Vanth , (edited )
    @Vanth@reddthat.com avatar

    deleted_by_author

    •
    locuester ,

    All this sensitivity being mainstream is new to me. It came from all angles in all aspects of life very suddenly.

    Yes you can find some things happening in the past, but sweeping changes were made in the 2020-2022 timeframe.

    That fact doesn’t minimize anyone’s prior efforts, thoughts, feelings, actions, movements, or otherwise. The attempts to fix the English collective masculine date back to 1795.

    As early as 1795, dissatisfaction with the convention of the collective masculine led to calls for gender-neutral pronouns, and attempts to invent pronouns for this purpose date back to at least 1850, although the use of singular they as a natural gender-neutral pronoun in English has persisted since the 14th century.

    pr06lefs ,

    “Frenchwoman” perhaps? But that sounds a bit dated to me. I’d probably go with “French person” or “French people”.

    intensely_human ,

    there are exceptions to the above: you can call someone ‘an American’ or 'A German", but not “A French”. I don’t understand why - if you can’t feel your way, best just avoid it

    And yet here you are confidently expounding exactly how this works. Why, if you know you don’t understand, are you weighing in on this like you’re an authority on it?

    ArcaneSlime ,

    Tbh I think it’s just because it sounds bad phonetically, since “a Frenchman” or “an Englishman” are both acceptable as well, but “a French” or “An English” just sounds dumb. Of course you can only do that to white countries, don’t try it with China.

    Silentiea ,

    Because fluent speakers of a language know the rules even if they don’t understand them. Why can you have a big green dog but not a green big dog? Because that’s the way the language works.

    Zagorath ,
    @Zagorath@aussie.zone avatar

    To be slightly more specific, you can have a “green big dog”, but it does not convey the same idea as a “big green dog”. The latter is by far the more normal, and it conveys any dog which is both big and green. The former implies the existence of “big dog” as a specific known thing, like “big dog” is a category of its own more than merely a dog that is big.

    As a general rule though, yes, follow the adjective order guidelines. There’s some fuzziness with it, but “opinion-size-age-shape-colour-origin-material-purpose Noun” should be used.

    Silentiea ,

    Yeah, but if I ask a third grader which way is right, they’ll know and they won’t be able to tell you why. This is normal.

    Anamnesis ,

    You can soften “a black” or “a Chinese” entirely by adding “person” to the end of it. English is weird.

    TheBananaKing ,

    Right, because that makes it an adjective.

    seliaste ,
    @seliaste@lemmy.blahaj.zone avatar

    That’s werid because in french that’s not what we use in everyday life. We say “Un japonais” for example, not “Une personne japonaise” which kinda sounds unnecessary

    ripcord ,
    @ripcord@lemmy.world avatar

    My wife tells me that using as an adjective is just as bad and that I should always say “woman”, e.g. a woman politician and never a female politician.

    I generally disagree and it seems fine and not disrespectful at all. But it’s somehat less up to me - I’m not a female.

    Kazumara ,

    My wife tells me that using as an adjective is just as bad and that I should always say “woman”, e.g. a woman politician and never a female politician.

    Using a noun as an adjective is just weird, honestly.

    investorsexchange ,
    @investorsexchange@lemmy.ca avatar

    I think that a good rule of thumb is: would you say “male doctor” or “male politician”? If not, is the professional’s gender relevant? Probably not, in which case it sounds pejorative to include it.

    ripcord ,
    @ripcord@lemmy.world avatar

    In some cases I would, and I would find it awkward to say “man doctor” or “man politician”. I don’t think it works at all, and I disagree with her that this really is the way most people try to avoid the naming.

    But, kinda like pronoun; I guess I try to listen and be sensitive on things like how women and minorities saybtheyre sensitive about, including labels and etc.

    Quastamaza ,

    Oh dear… And why isn’t “a male” just as bad? And what’s intrinsically wrong about those two as a noun? Why is it ok to call someone “a fire fighter“, “a journalist”, and not “a female”? Is it something to feel shame about? Bah. It’s really beyond me. Thank god i live in Italy, where this kind of stuff still struggles to gain traction, but alas it will do eventually, since hey, you know, we’re all living in america after all. What’s more, it’s not entirely true: now you can get scolded even for using female as an adjective (it happened to me more than once), my friend. And it’ll get worse, just you wait and see.

    Kazumara ,

    And why isn’t “a male” just as bad?

    It is.

    And what’s intrinsically wrong about those two as a noun?

    Because you’re reducing people to their characteristics of identity.

    Why is it ok to call someone “a fire fighter“, “a journalist”, and not “a female”?

    Because those are characteristics of their chosen functions.

    It seems pretty easy to me, and I’m not even a native speaker.

    Quastamaza ,

    It is.

    Okay, that’s your opinion, not mine. If opinions still exist, that is.

    Because you’re reducing people to their characteristics of identity.

    And having innate characteristics is horrible… unbelievable. I must be really old.

    It seems pretty easy to me, and I’m not even a native speaker.

    Ok, you’re right, you’re reeeally smart. Well done. I quit, have the last say.

    TheBananaKing ,

    “I had coffee with one of the males at work”

    “There’s a male waiting for you downstairs”

    “I need to see a male about a dog”

    All of them would be weird as fuck, and yes, they’d sound demeaning. They don’t have the same weird-incel vibe, but that’s just an accident of culture.

    RBWells ,

    Right. This is the best way to figure out if it sounds weird.

    If you would use “man” then the word to use is “woman”. If you would use “male” then “female”.

    So if someone asks is the doctor male or female? No problem. Even if they ask “is the doctor a male or a female?” Still no problem. Kinda odd but certainly not offensive.

    The problem arises when someone says “men and females” that does sound weird and kinda insulting. As would “women and males”.

    If you would use the word man, use woman.

    If you would use the word male, use female.

    SpaceCowboy ,
    @SpaceCowboy@lemmy.ca avatar

    Typical male behavior!

    There’s no reason for you to feel attacked by the previous sentence, right?

    xmunk ,

    Unless you’re a ferengi. /s

    I think a big part that’s skeevy to me is that gender and sex are comparatively unimportant individual traits, referring to someone by their gender happens far more often for women and it’s a hold over of misogyny. There are much more interesting individual traits that identify us than our sex or presented gender.

    ComradeKhoumrag ,
    @ComradeKhoumrag@infosec.pub avatar

    And that’s why I say “bruh”

    I’m probably the only person to not use that word like a frat douche, I just like calling my guy friends bro and I tried calling my female friends bro and they didn’t find that funny so now everyone gets bruh’d

    Wanderer ,

    Now, you could get around it by calling someone “a female person” - except that we already have a word for “female person”, and that’s “woman”.

    We did have a word that meant that and everyone knew it. But that word has changed into something else.

    NikkiDimes ,

    You okay buddy?

    Wanderer ,

    Female person doesn’t mean women.

    The word has changed so it’s not correct to say that.

    Zoomboingding ,
    @Zoomboingding@lemmy.world avatar

    Unless you’re someone’s doctor, it’s almost never relevant to discuss someone’s sex. Gender is how we refer to people in most contexts, and when it’s important (e.g. discussing pregnancy) it’s not rude to make a distinction.

    Wanderer ,

    I’m talking about this

    we already have a word for “female person”, and that’s “woman”

    Zoomboingding ,
    @Zoomboingding@lemmy.world avatar

    Except “woman” has always meant “adult presenting as female”

    dankm ,

    Now, you could get around it by calling someone “a female person” - except that we already have a word for “female person”, and that’s “woman”.

    I’m going to nitpick a touch. “Female person” includes girls. “Women” ecludes them.

    neidu2 , (edited )

    Not really offensive on its own, but it carries a reductive and dehumanizing vibe, depending on how it’s used. And the ones who use “female” instead of “woman” are often incels and/or misogynists, giving the term a bad conotation.

    Also, Ferengis…

    unreachable ,
    @unreachable@lemmy.world avatar

    https://lemmy.world/pictrs/image/248ac181-6c9a-4bac-ba55-4b797adc5979.webm

    LordOfLocksley ,

    Jeez, mark that NSFW please

    PlainSimpleGarak ,

    Episode is so stupid, I can’t not laugh.

    bappity ,
    @bappity@lemmy.world avatar

    this! an example of someone always using it in a such a way is Andrew Tate. watch any of his videos where he mentions girls and you’ll immediately understand

    r00ty Admin ,
    r00ty avatar

    I always think of the ferengis when people use men to describe men, and females to describe women.

    TheAnonymouseJoker ,
    @TheAnonymouseJoker@lemmy.ml avatar

    Likewise I have seen radical feminists use “male” all the time. Is it okay to classify them as femcels and misandrists?

    idiomaddict ,

    It’s potentially offensive when people say men and females, which is often why it comes up online. Using either male or female as a noun is dehumanizing, in that it’s not commonly used to refer to people, but mostly animals (law enforcement and military use them as nouns, but they’re also intentionally distancing themselves from the people in reports).

    Basically, “women” feels weird for a lot of English speakers, but “girls” sounds creepy, so they try for something else. Just go with women, 99% of the time, it’s perfectly fine

    r00ty Admin ,
    r00ty avatar

    It's mostly this, I would say. But in general there's a valid context to use male/female and another valid context to use man/woman or girl/boy or lady/gentleman.

    Most people are not going to hold someone speaking English as a second language to task over it. But if you're speaking natively, there's no real excuse not to know when it is right to use the correct term.

    But that's just my own opinion.

    Sibbo ,

    Just say ladies. That’s polite.

    snooggums ,
    @snooggums@midwest.social avatar

    While generally true, there are some people from older generations that associate ladies with prostitution as in ‘ladies of the night’ and find it offensive.

    Yes, I have known quite a few and they are in their 60s to 80s right now.

    idiomaddict , (edited )

    I’m torn here. It’s a good way for me to talk about my peers (early thirties) in the third person, but it doesn’t quite fit for second person for me. (Edit: ”guy” is also not great for second person, now that I think about it, so maybe it’s more equivalent than I realized. Though for plural third person, it still isn’t 1:1, imo. “Two guys in my class” has a different connotation from “two ladies in my class,” but I can’t put my finger on why.)

    “Ladies” feels formal/salesy (if someone addresses a group of women I’m in as “ladies,” it feels like they’re either a server for our group dinner or trying to quickly build rapport) to me, whereas “lady” can often feel straight up rude ( “hey, lady!” sounds like Bart Simpson said it vs. “hey, ladies!” which could mean so many different things depending on the context, but seems less annoyed at least).

    homoludens ,

    “women” feels weird for a lot of English speakers

    Why does it feel weird? (not a native speaker here)

    Lath ,

    woman reads as "wo-man"
    women reads as "we-men"

    English is weird. I blame the British.

    Zagorath ,
    @Zagorath@aussie.zone avatar

    While we’re at it, loose and lose. Somehow taking away an o makes the vowel sound longer and makes the consonant voiced?

    Lath ,

    Contextual irregularities.

    There's a loss connection in there that ties into it.

    Very mish-mash sort of stuff, eh?

    idiomaddict ,

    Because there’s no good equivalent to “guys” for women, and women often feels too old/formal. If I’m talking about a group of 19 year olds, then they are women and men (and there’s no good word for NB adults, other than “adults,” that I can think of, either), but 19 year olds still feel younger than women and men. “Guy” is any age and denotes a peer or relaxed relationship, but “woman” and “man” don’t have those connotations. I would talk about the man who works at the bank and the guy who works at the coffee shop, as an indicator of familiarity, if that helps. If you speak a language with a formal you and an informal you, it feels like a similar distinction to me, though those are also all different.

    “Guys” can refer to groups of women, and I definitely call my sisters guys, but if you talk about “a guy,” it isn’t gender neutral where I’m from.

    “Lady” singular denotes age, but not formality, though the formality difference between “lady” and “ladies” is hard (I could absolutely see someone saying “some lady was an absolute asshole at the gas station today,” but “two ladies were absolute assholes at the gas station,” is weird).

    snooggums ,
    @snooggums@midwest.social avatar

    Gals is the term that matches guys, but it seems like it fell out of favor when women was promoted as a response to the use of girls in a negative way to describe women (adults) in an infantilizing way. Like it was common to say men’s sports and girls sports in the same way that incels use men and females.

    FYI: Ladies goes with lords, as in lords and ladies.

    idiomaddict ,

    I know gal is considered an equivalent, but the only people I’ve ever known to use it were Girl Scout leaders and square dance callers, so it doesn’t feel at all equivalent to me. I don’t know if this is widespread and/or why the word never gained as much traction as “guy,” but I definitely don’t enjoy being called a gal. It feels infantilizing and othering to me, like when people say “and dudettes!”

    Interestingly, gal comes from “girl,” whereas guy comes from guy fawkes. I would have made a very unwise bet that “guy” was older.

    snooggums ,
    @snooggums@midwest.social avatar

    Terms for the sexes/genders are treated differently. In the US, the only term I can think of that has been used derogatively for men is ‘boy’, and only in the context of racism for disparaging adult men who are black.

    On the other side, most of the terms have been used negatively in different contexts. Women were often called girls to infantilize them. Gals was used to avoid formality. ‘Ladies of the night’ spoiled the term ladies because of the association with prostitution.

    On the flip side a boys club isn’t disparagingly to infantilize men, as shown in the song ‘The boys are back in town’. A girls night out is generally not seen as a negative, but calling women’s sports in college girl’s sports is while men’s sports tend to just be called sports.

    So while there are exceptions, other terms for men terms tend to not be used negatively like other terms for women do and that is why women’s terms tend to fall out of favor over time while men’s stick around.

    magnetosphere ,
    @magnetosphere@fedia.io avatar

    This is why I love the word “y’all”

    homoludens ,

    Thanks!

    Wanderer ,

    This just seems women are more touchy about this stuff then men.

    Someone called me out on reddit for using the word girls for women and it was sexist because it is infantising, and it was stupid because they were making out I don’t call men boys. When I absoultely do, in fact I do it more than the alternative. Really the only way I was sexist on that is that I don’t do it as much as I do with men so if anything I should do it more.

    But you can’t win, someone’s always going to be offended

    dandroid ,

    What about when specifying the gender of your friend? “My woman friend” sounds really weird to me. I usually say, “my female friend” because it sounds more natural, but I don’t want to sound like an incel/misogynist.

    For what it’s worth, I say “my male friend” as well.

    idiomaddict ,

    Nonono, it’s always okay to use it as an adjective, so that’s fine!

    Lysergid ,

    As a non-native speaker I find woman more offensive than female. Noun male/female puts all as equal. Girls, boys, birds, ponies. Woman, though, seems to be de-attached. Especially when talking about humankind it’s common to refer to humans as just „man”. „No man been there”, „for all mankind”, „dog is a man’s best friend”. As it applies to man only and woman doesn’t count

    BreakDecks ,

    The way I explained it to a chronically single friend who used this word problematically all the time, and made him stop: Female is a word that describes gender and/or sex. My wife is female, and so is my dog. My wife is literally a woman, and my dog is literally a removed, so if I speak of my wife with the same sterile language that I speak of my dog, then my wife would easily conclude that I have no respect for her. I then asked him how the dating world was treating him, he said “bad”, and I said “of course, because you treat women like dogs”.

    Never heard him say it again.

    Adalast ,

    This is a good way of describing it for non-US or non-native speakers. The context is important. If you are speaking in an environment where linguistic sterility or pedantic exactitude are paramount, use female because that is the correct term. Things like studies; medical, statistical, anthropological, etc. If you are in a social situation, use a non-sterile term like woman for an adult, girl for a child, or some other non-pejorative colloquial term. If “chick” or “dame” or “babe” are acceptable to the girls/women of the social circle, go wild with them, if not, don’t. This is viable advice for any pronoun or colloquial reference, no matter the gender/sex of the people around. Their emotions matter.

    Also, if you are speaking with physists about physics, object pronouns become appropriate because no matter how offended people get, they have a volume and warp spacetime, so therefore they ARE objects. 🙃

    Toneswirly ,

    Context is important. If I say: “Sexual dimorphism is when a species has two distinct sexes, male and female,” I dont think many would find that rude. Now, if I say “Im so sick of females telling me what to do” you might get some cocked eyebrows.

    hungryphrog ,

    It really depends on the context. When used as an adjective, it’s fine. For example, the sentence “My female coworker has brown hair.” is correct. However, when it is used as a noun, it can be dehumanising. For example: “A female at my workplace has brown hair” is dehumanising. It can be used as a noun when talking about non-humans (“After mating, the female will lay her eggs.”) or in medicinal context when referring to people with uteruses.

    n3m37h ,

    However, when it is used as a noun, it can be dehumanising. For example: “A female at my workplace has brown hair” is dehumanising.

    The fuck are you talking about?

    BreakDecks ,

    Using human nonspecific terminology to describe women is dehumanizing. They are women, not “females”. The only people who use “female” as a noun mean it the same way they might call a woman a “hoe”. It’s a word you use when you deliberately want to minimize the existence of another person. Literally referring to a woman like she is an object, or livestock…

    n3m37h ,

    Using human nonspecific terminology to describe women is dehumanizing.

    What an oxymoron if I’ve ever heard one.

    BreakDecks ,

    Of course you think “women aren’t human” is a funny joke…

    Touch grass, incel.

    n3m37h ,

    Ass u me much? I never said that ya Qanon crazy fuck

    Sorry to tell ya I live on a farm, if anyone says that they are just projecting and should prolly go touch grass themselves

    The fact y’all think calling a woman a female is dehumanizing is fucking pathetic. Go out and get a life

    myfavouritename ,

    I get that you’re being practical here. You’re not technically wrong, and the people who are disagreeing with you really are arguing points of nuance.

    But they aren’t wrong either. That nuance matters in certain contexts.

    You can pick this hill to defend. Or you can learn something that you didn’t know about the people in your online community, and probably your IRL community too.

    Embrace learning something new. It will almost never be a waste of your time.

    BreakDecks ,

    Ah, I understand now. You think that “human nonspecific terminology” and “dehumanizing terminology” are oxymoronic. Let me help clarify this for you with a lesson in reading comprehension:

    “Human nonspecific terminology” refers to terminology that isn’t used specifically to refer to humans. For example, nouns like “male”, “female”, “subject”, or “specimen” can refer to humans, but they can also apply to things like plants and animals. Casually using these terms socially is generally thought of as dehumanizing and disrespectful.

    This is opposed to respectful human terminology like “man”, “woman”, “participant”, or “person” that almost exclusively refer to humans.

    If a man thinks of himself as a man, but refers to women as “females”, people tend to assume he has less than an acceptable amount of respect for women, since he uses less human terminology to describe them than he would to describe himself.

    n3m37h ,

    This is why I preferred math over English classes.

    hungryphrog ,

    That you shouldn’t call a human woman “a female”?

    Railcar8095 ,

    Not English native here, please don’t be too harsh for asking this.

    I’ve heard male very often as noun, and doesn’t seem to have a negative reaction. Is one “generally” considered worse to use than the other?

    DerisionConsulting ,

    A lot of the reason why “Female” has a bit of a negative slant, is because of the kinds of people/communities that overused the word.

    Those groups used female as a way to say that women are only useful as somewhere to put your dick. There didn’t really seem to be a group using male in a dehumanizing way, so it doesn’t really have the same negative feeling.

    Kinda like how if someone just comments “Jew” on a post it can feel negative, but if they say “Canadian” or “Bulgarian” it feels neutral.

    thatsTheCatch ,

    Yeah it’s tricky. Using “female” as a noun in a non-biological context is often used by incels and misogynists in order to dehumanise women. Whereas there isn’t the same trend of certain groups using “male” to dehumanise men, or at least I’ve never heard of it happening in real life.

    In a vacuum, both would be the same, but because there is a much larger trend of using “female” to dehumanise women than using “male” to dehumanise men, it’s not a true double-standard.

    And as long as you’re not being a dick, especially if English isn’t your native language, then people will know what you mean. But if you are consciously trying to make an effort, then don’t use “female” and “male” as nouns to refer to someone’s gender.

    hungryphrog ,

    Can you give some examples?

    pixeltree ,
    @pixeltree@lemmy.blahaj.zone avatar

    It’s super context dependent. Asking “How do I ask a woman out?” Vs “How do I ask a female out?” say very different things about you.

    jman6495 ,

    Using it as an adjective in some cases is fine, never use it as a noun, unfortunately due to assholes using it that way it now has a negative conotation.

    triplenadir ,
    @triplenadir@lemmygrad.ml avatar

    exactly this

    johannesvanderwhales ,

    Mostly just by association. It sounds very incel-y.

    pingveno ,

    And the infamously misogynistic Ferengi.

    SpaceCowboy ,
    @SpaceCowboy@lemmy.ca avatar

    Humons just don’t understand Ferengi culture.

    carl_dungeon ,

    It’s kind of like the difference between talking about people who are black and referring to someone as “one of the blacks”. It’s subtle, but the latter is objectifying where as the former is descriptive.

    intensely_human ,

    It’s even more subtle than that. We’ve defeated most actual injustice in our society, and now people are scraping the bottom of the barrel to find injustice to fight against.

    Anamnesis ,

    I have some bad news to tell you about capitalism

    Hadriscus ,

    hmmm, that’s an assessment I can’t get behind, lol

    SmokeInFog ,
    @SmokeInFog@midwest.social avatar

    This is the dumbest thing I’ve read this year.

    Wahots ,
    @Wahots@pawb.social avatar

    It sounds fairly scientific in a crunchy or incel way. As others have highlighted here, there are times it can be used, but generally, I’d stick to “women” or “ladies” for most situations. It flows better and avoids potentially negative connotations. That said, if english isn’t your native language, I’d expect native speakers to cut you some slack; english can be a difficult language to learn, and the language is always evolving, particularly around gendered language right now. Sounds like you are putting the effort into learning it, though :)

    TotallyHuman ,

    Typically it does flow better, but I have a little mental stumble every time someone uses “woman” or “women” as an adjective. I know why they’re doing it and I can’t really fault them, it just… feels off.

    captainlezbian ,

    It’s an adjective not a noun when talking about people. The sort of people who use it as a noun tend to be misogynists and so when people do it they’re often unknowingly writing with a misogynist accent if that makes sense.

    ComradeR ,

    “I have a female friend.” (As in “I have a friend that’s a woman.”) “I’ve talked with a female today.” (As in “I’ve talked with a woman today.”)

    The first one is fine, because isn’t using the word as an adjective. The second one is derogatory, because it is being used as a substantive.

    n3m37h ,

    So stating a fact is derogatory?

    Where the fuck do y’all get your information?

    h3mlocke ,

    Lmao this incel can’t stop commenting in here 😂

    Holyginz ,

    Found the incel lol

    n3m37h ,

    Considering I read the initial statement to my mom (60) and she said wtf?

    Y’all just assume. Hope ya don’t go through life with that kind of outlook you will never make friends

    IzzyScissor ,

    “My mom said it’s OK” is just telling on yourself, my dude.

    n3m37h ,

    You’re great at twisting words to suit your narrative.

    Literally said what the fuck is wrong with these people. And I concur.

    Went into this knowing exactly what I would be dealing with, a bunch of idiots who have never been told to shut the fuck up.

    dillydogg ,

    What do you mean by facts? How is female defined by you? Because I doubt you genetically test for XX chromosomes before you say female, right?

    I think there are plenty of words that can be factual, but also unkind. And that is all that this is about. I would at the very least find it odd if someone used “human specimen” instead of calling me a man, though it is factual. I think trying to use the words that describe people the way they see themselves instead of hanging onto some logical ideal is a normal transition languages make over time and is a kinder way to be.

    AverageKiwi ,

    The basic rule of thumb is that anyone who gets upset with you using the word female isn’t worth your time. If they’re really going to get upset about you using the word female then they’re probably going to get upset about a lot of other trivial things as well and that’s not the sort of negativity and bitterness you want in your life.

    bruhduh ,
    @bruhduh@lemmy.world avatar

    male/female usually used for animals, for humans usage of man/woman would be the right way

    Harbinger01173430 ,

    Humans are animals though. Why do they get offended when they get reminded of that fact? Smh, this is why us members of the galactic community don’t like your species too much. /S

    arin ,

    Kinda like how ignorant people only thing humans have consciousness while more and more studies show capability in many animals

    SpaceCowboy ,
    @SpaceCowboy@lemmy.ca avatar

    Maybe that’s how you animals in your “galactic community” operate, but be careful… a lot of people in these parts eat animals for breakfast. For your own self preservation you might want to come up with some reasons why you’re more than just an animal before we get to barbecue season.

    Harbinger01173430 ,

    Alright. Time to change living conditions to ‘livestock’. I think some of you do it in your space simulator games. /S

    Classy ,

    I disagree. Male/female is used plenty with humans, but it tends to be used in a more clinical or ‘objective’ manner, such as in legal documents, autopsy reports, police suspect descriptions, things of that sort.

    I think the use of, e.g., “Look at those four males over there”, it has a bit of a connotation of separation of the personhood of the people involved. A man is a living, thinking being; he is worthy of dignity, and he has a soul. A ‘male’ can almost be called an ‘it’: it has a characterization of cold, scientific classification.

    arin ,

    Don’t bring science to feminism!

    WalrusDragonOnABike ,

    A ‘male’ can almost be called an ‘it’: it has a characterization of cold, scientific classification.

    But that’s the issue: its dehumanizing and that’s done intentionally. The use case you mention seems to just be an extension of its usage for livestock rather than an exception. But its an exception to it being used in a misogynistic way while still being a noun.

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