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lemmy.world

ScruffyDucky , to mildlyinfuriating in They really want people to RTO

Better than office rotting

kawa , to linux in What happened to my computer
@kawa@reddeet.com avatar
Batting1000 , to lemmyshitpost in Quite a talent

Imagine being the king, and you’ve got that one friend you want to put on payroll, but their only claim to fame is farting.

ilost7489 , to lemmyshitpost in Quite a talent

Bumbulum is such a great word

veloxization ,
@veloxization@yiffit.net avatar

It’s a bulum out of the bum.

sjmarf ,

“Bulum” means “instrument”, so it literally means “bum instrument”

Rusty ,

Whoa, Black Betty

shrugal , (edited ) to fediverse in Regarding sublinks and feeling concerned about what is going on with it

I don’t think there is anything to be concerned about.

Sublinks will live alongside Lemmy, just like kbin does today. Some Lemmy instances might switch to it under the hood at some point, but as a user you probably woudn’t even notice the change. All the data would be preserved, so your community would still be there unchanged.

It is basically Lemmy written in a different programming language, with more focus on moderation tools afaik. So for users it looks and works just like any other Lemmy instance does, and it’s part of the same Threadi-/Fediverse.

can ,

Sublinks will live alongside Lemmy, just like kbin does today. Some Lemmy instances might switch to it under the hood at some point, but as a user you probably woudn’t even notice the change

To expand on this, some kbin instances have already similarly changed to mbin, and no one noticed.

SatansMaggotyCumFart ,

What happened to lbin?

ericjmorey ,
@ericjmorey@discuss.online avatar

as a user you probably woudn’t even notice the change.

That’s not entirely true. The default UI for Sublinks is being developed to be dramatically different than the default UI for Lemmy. It’s unclear if the Lemmy UI will be made available by lemmy.world if they change to Sublinks. Its also unclear if lemmy.world will simply redirect to sublinks.world.

It’s also unclear if lemmy.world will use sublinks as sublinks currently doesn’t exist in a form that’s usable for lemmy.world. And it may turn out that what is built doesn’t work as intended and lemmy.world will continue to use lemmy indefinitely.

shrugal ,

It’s planned to be 100% API compatible with Lemmy, so you’d be able to use any Lemmy-UI with it. IDK why LW or any other instance would change their default UI.

A lot of things are not final and may change, but let’s just start with their stated goals, instead of speculating about all the things that could theoretically happen.

ericjmorey ,
@ericjmorey@discuss.online avatar

It’s planned to be 100% API compatible with Lemmy, so you’d be able to use any Lemmy-UI with it.

Which is nice for an instance admin, but someone with an account on that instance who uses the default web UI will definitely see a change.

IDK why LW or any other instance would change their default UI.

Because keeping the default Lemmy UI but using the Sublinks backend won’t allow for the use of the additional features (like moderation tools) of Sublinks.

let’s just start with their stated goals

The stated goals of who? I’m well aware of the stated goals of Sublinks, but lemmy.world hasn’t stated any goals than a desire to have improvements to lemmy, helping the Sublinks development community (they’re essentially part of that community) and considering the possibility of using Sublinks if it fits their interests more than Lemmy (which seems likely since they [lemmy.world admins] seem to be more a part of the Sublinks development community than the Lemmy development community)

KonalaKoala OP ,
@KonalaKoala@lemmy.world avatar

Oh okay, it got me confused and made me feel concerned because I don’t want to end up losing the community I created here.

ericjmorey ,
@ericjmorey@discuss.online avatar

Yeah. I don’t think you have to worry about that anytime soon. And certainly not because of Sublinks.

UnfortunateShort , (edited ) to linuxmemes in Why don't banks like root on Android?

The reason is very simple: They rely on Google Safetynet (basically self-diagnosis). And that will immediately tell you off if it notices your device is rooted. And while you can have a lengthy discussion regarding whether this makes your phone less secure or not, this is another simple argument from Google’s POV: The device has obviously been tampered with, we don’t want to put any resources into covering this case. As far as we are concerned, you shouldn’t use our OS like this.

So basically laziness.

Chewy7324 , (edited )

The banking apps I’ve tried don’t require SafetyNet, instead they use Android AOSP’s basicIntegrity. The latter doesn’t require certification by Google, but also checks whether the device is rooted and the bootloader is locked.

This means custom ROM’s on most devices won’t pass basicIntegrity, as only Google Pixel, OnePlus and Fairphone allow for relocking the bootloader.

Max_P ,
@Max_P@lemmy.max-p.me avatar

OnePlus no longer supports that as of ColorOS OxygenOS 12 unfortunately.

Chewy7324 ,

That’s a bummer. Seems like Google Pixel and Fairphone are the only ones left. I don’t even know why manufacturers wouldn’t allow for relocking or even unlocking of their phones. I can’t imagine they make much money with user data and the phone is already paid for. Warranty claims shouldn’t be much of an issue either, as modifications can be easily detected and it’s likely not a relevant amount of people anyway.

Spiralvortexisalie ,

As I understand it, the stated purpose is to prevent supply chain attacks and ultimately possible damage to their brand. In practice many of these same vendors ship their own spyware and do not want it removed.

huginn ,

SafetyNet is dead.

They rely on Play Integrity API.

That covers:

App Binary signatures App source corroboration - Was it actually installed from the Play Store? Android device attestation - Is it a genuine device powered by Google Play Services Malware detection - Google Play Protect is enabled and has not seen known malware signatures.

They can choose to ignore any number of those but they do not. It’s part of their security reporting requirements to use attestation I expect.

Beyond that - a device that doesn’t meet Play Integrity is more likely to be a malicious actor than it is to be a tech enthusiast with a rooted phone: One of them is far more prevalent than the other in terms of device usage.

Android apps are trivial to reverse engineer, inject code into and generally manipulate. That lets apps like ReVanced work the way they do… but that also means that blue team developers have a lot more work to do to protect app code.

Source - Android App Developer, worked on apps with high level security audits (like banking apps).

redcalcium , to mildlyinfuriating in Waiting in a queue to see a Web site

Why pay for more servers when you can tell your users to queue?

Fapper_McFapper ,

Write that down! Write that down!

CatZoomies ,
@CatZoomies@lemmy.world avatar

Load Balancers everywhere named Samwise: “You mean we don’t have to share the load?”

DillyDaily ,

Better than the system being used by the department of human services in Australia. If the servers and service centres are overloaded, you basically just get told “tough shit, try again later, hope you’re not desperately trying to get out of a DV situation or protect an elder from abuse, cause we’re not paying for more servers”

At least with a digital queue system there’s a sliver of hope that you might get through.

shartworx , to memes in There is zero need for millions of office drones to be on the road daily.

Some companies are doing it to create a hostile workplace to increase attrition. If an employee quits, they don’t have to pay unemployment or severance. Other companies have huge investments in corporate real estate. They have been sitting on short-term loans that are coming due. The property owners are keeping their real-estate values artificially high, but to one wants to rent/lease them, so they aren’t as valuable as in practice as they look on paper. Some companies get tax breaks from cities to put their offices there and will not continue to reap those rewards if their workers are not coming into the city. Don’t let them gaslight you about culture or face time because that has all been debunked. A lot of remote workers are coming in to the office and sitting on Zoom/Teams calls in their cubicles.

melpomenesclevage ,

The dumbest most mismanaged bullshit in history.

A history that includes the fucking Bolsheviks!

protozoan_ninja ,

You think the Bolsheviks were bad, just look at the guy they replaced. He made the Bolsheviks look good!

melpomenesclevage ,

Korensky? He wasnt great, but I don’t think he was as bad as those dipshits. At least he didn’t murder all the communists.

protozoan_ninja , (edited )

I actually meant the tsar, and I can understand feeling bad for Kerensky (poor man must have been so confused, when all he had to do was get on a train out of Dodge as of mid-late September 1917 and anyone with an ounce of sense could have told him this), but don’t hold him up as a leading light of proper management and doing shit the smart way, okay?

melpomenesclevage ,

Yeah I’m just bitter about the Bolsheviks betraying the revolution so they could be on top before it was even finished, abd doing it so completely.

Yes, monarchs were often worse, and Nick was particularly spectacular in that regard. But the USSR is sort of a recognizable legibly-modern example; they had tell communications and (shitty, because they had a chance to be decades ahead of everyone else and noped out) computers and airplanes and stuff. And while they’re not the worst, they’re well past the “there is no fucking excuse to suck this much” line. So that’s my “worse than x” line, and I think the american empire fails on every metric.

To be clear, while I do have criticisms of centralized communism (the centralized part), I think if it were substantially at fault for how much the USSR sucked, Cuba wouldn’t have lasted five seconds, much less outlived it and still squeaked by even with the spectacular bullshit challenges it face(d/s)

protozoan_ninja , (edited )

Yup, it was a shitshow. If you’re a socialist, it’s good to study, but maybe in the same spirit as bourgeois revolutionaries might have studied the wreckage of the French Revolution. Or, you know, in the same spirit as Marx and Engels reflecting on the failures of 1848.

INHALE_VEGETABLES ,

What the fuck kind of weyland corporation do you guys work for.

sentient_loom ,
@sentient_loom@sh.itjust.works avatar

Literally every corporation.

Marin_Rider ,

the most unbelievable part is cubicles, no real corporations will provide that much privacy and instead force you to work open plan on a row of desks next to a random other person from another team who was also forced in for no reason

Ghostalmedia , to lemmyshitpost in How to know you're in Indiana.
@Ghostalmedia@lemmy.world avatar
Everythingispenguins ,

Not that kind of love

wreckedcarzz ,
@wreckedcarzz@lemmy.world avatar

“What is Love’s? 🎶”

negativenull ,
@negativenull@lemmy.world avatar
frezik ,

“We carry cheap knives, illegal Chinese handheld radios, Thin Blue Line flag hats, and there’s trucker sechs in the back”.

Ghostalmedia ,
@Ghostalmedia@lemmy.world avatar

Excuse me, but you forgot the heat lamp chicken tendies and the attached Arby’s.

mojofrododojo ,

meth’s at pump #4. Ask for Jeetus

dev_null ,

Good ol’ Beofang; who cares what the numbers say? Pick your favorite ones, no worries.

MechanicalJester , to programmer_humor in Dad has the chops to be a project manager.

Geez… Project managers are forbidden from making work estimates- they only get to collect them.

They don’t get to argue estimates either. They can ask questions to gain understanding but the estimates are the estimates.

Wearing an architect or chief engineer hat is sometimes more fun because you get to call bullshit on dumb estimates like “4 to 5 weeks to model a table with 7 fields, with 2 of them being PK, FK” like GTFO we can model it in the next 5 minutes if I talk slowly.

deadbeef79000 ,

I’ve had PM’s complain that our estimates don’t fit into their plan.

I just walked away.

MechanicalJester ,

If the timing is critical then the only reasonable solution is to cut scope and features until it fits.

The triangle isn’t a rubbery floppy thing, it is iron!

deadbeef79000 ,

They fully subscribed to the mythical man month. So they just threw bodies at it and then couldn’t understand why the project got slower.

MechanicalJester ,

I don’t understand your statement. The Mythical Man Month teaches exactly that lesson of more bodies != Faster in many cases.

How long to build the site with 1 full stack dev? 1.5 years.

How long with an existing high performance team of 5? 2 months.

How long if you hire 4 plus the one original (all qualified)? 1 to 1.5 years.

How long if we hire 30 full stack devs? Maybe never.

deadbeef79000 ,

Poorly worded on my part.

They fully bought into the idea of the man-month without realising it was mythical.

MechanicalJester ,

You know? I literally figured that out a minute before I saw your reply. And I rolled my eyes at myself.

That makes sense. Silly me

Cheers

Synnr ,

Based on this interaction alone and his dad deciding the price for him, I’m going to make the wildly assumptious assumption this is a 20s/30s(/40s?) unemploymed guy living at his dad’s house rent free.

If my assumptions are incorrect, sorry mate, you did not win the dad lottery.

Xanis ,

I’m still not sure exactly what Project Managers do. I’ve seen countless job postings and even stories from people claiming to have been one. Yet, more often than not they get shit on, and memes often have a kernel of truth.

JackbyDev ,

Yet when I have a good one versus a bad one I can definitely tell the difference.

trolololol ,

Many roles main responsibility is to report upwards what happens in"the basement". Which includes translating what one person says into that the other can understand. Then there’s roles that do it both ways.

If there’s time to spare, a good project manager can also bring health and common sense to the team they’re part of. That takes pointing out non sense both inside and outside the team, and the hardest part - being constructive about it.

Xanis ,

So essentially taking complex ideas or situations and breaking them down a’la eli5 style to the suits and other personnel that may not otherwise understand. At the same time in other situations or roles, taking expectations and directives from higher up and breaking them down so they’re digestible and workable.

Man, these job descriptions really makes it sound like you’re going to be doing incredibly complicated and potentially invasive team-to-team tasks. When in reality you’re trying to get a bunch of cats to work together without slapping one another.

dgriffith ,

They are supposed to be the glue that binds the internal team together as well as bonding to external groups.

The project manager organises external requirements and steers the project in the direction needed for the business. That direction might change depending on the status of other projects, it’s their job to be on top of that.

They also report progress and roadblocks upstream so that those who manage groups of related projects can work on keeping everything running.

Whether they’re actually competent, well that’s something else entirely.

xthexder ,
@xthexder@l.sw0.com avatar

Exactly this. You don’t realize how useful they are until you’ve had a good one. The amount of BS from other teams they can shield you from can make focusing on your own job so much easier.

Unfortunately the ratio of good to bad PMs leaves a lot to be desired.

MechanicalJester ,

Good ones are pretty rare and good program managers are even rarer.

What they should do, and what most actually do, are different things.

Project managers must be great with humans and communication. If they are not, then they just can’t be effective.

Xanis ,

Oooh. Okay yeah, that explains it. Communication is the number one thing that most people struggle with. I’m constantly pestering my bosses about communicating even slightly important information that could affect me a rung down. Then even when it is reported it isn’t effective or concise, or if it is concise it’s unclear.

Okay. I’m beginning to get a grasp on it.

Buttons ,
@Buttons@programming.dev avatar

I like to put my estimates in writing somehow.

“My initial and unbiased estimate is 3 months.” Put it in an email, nothing will ever change the fact that my initial estimate was 3 months.

MechanicalJester ,

Ideally your estimates would just be complexity points. And those estimates would go on on the stories in Jira/Azure Dev Ops / wherever

And honestly the team should meet up and discuss the estimates

Ghostalmedia , to aww in Not everyone has fun during bath time
@Ghostalmedia@lemmy.world avatar

Classic husky move.

Non husky: I don’t like this and I’m sad

Husky: I FUCKING HATE THIS SO MUCH WHY DO YOU HATE ME

JoMiran ,
@JoMiran@lemmy.ml avatar

Chihuahua: I WILL STRIP THE FLESH FROM YOUR BONES!!!

GladiusB ,
@GladiusB@lemmy.world avatar

Huskies are cat software run on dog hardware

Ghostalmedia ,
@Ghostalmedia@lemmy.world avatar

I thought that was sighthounds. Super aloof, only asks for pets when they want them, wants to spend all day stalking a mouse and slowly torturing it, etc.

Moose ,
@Moose@moose.best avatar

I always thought people overexaggerated about how dramatic huskys are - until I had one live below me for a few years. Some of those noises just made me laugh from how goofy it was. Dummy got sprayed by a skunk too, twice.

Ghostalmedia ,
@Ghostalmedia@lemmy.world avatar

Oof. I’ve had to deal with skunk 3 times. And one time I got hit too.

No fun. That stuff if so much worse when it’s fresh.

elvith ,

When I was a student, I did an internship in a chemistry lab. On one of the days, someone brought in some samples of skunk secretion for an analysis.

Everyone was like Not again i dont want that, let the intern do this!

I thought how bad could it be?. Turns out really bad. It days to stop that smell. And I mostly handled the sealed phials and only opened a single one for a gas chromatography without spilling something…

Moose ,
@Moose@moose.best avatar

Oh boy yeah that sounds awful, it was bad enough with them isolated downstairs and after washing the dog immediately. Both times I could very easily smell it in my room for at least a week, fades over time though, first few days suckkkk.

Kase ,

I had a not-husky (mixed, I think she was mostly Australian shepherd) who would make “husky” sounds all the time. We always figured she was raised around huskies or something. Anyway, she was silly and adorable, and I hope I get to meet a husky someday because they sound awesome.

Moose , (edited )
@Moose@moose.best avatar

Here’s a pic of the goofball during winter, somehow in a state halfway between sitting and standing.

https://moose.best/pictrs/image/5f236c4d-21ca-472a-8dc8-64e594fa8b89.jpeg

Kolanaki ,
@Kolanaki@yiffit.net avatar

My husky isn’t much like the stereotypes. The only time she really gets loud is if I say “space camp” for some reason. I honestly don’t know why that phrase makes her howl; I was just saying random shit one day until she started “wooing” at something and that was it.

Corkyskog ,

Is her name Laika?

jeffw , to memes in A retro problem
@jeffw@lemmy.world avatar

Pretty sure the little slit was so that you could use a flathead screwdriver. Had to do that a couple times

downpunxx ,

......... aaaaaand there goes the infinitesimally tiny nut inside the case

billgamesh ,

clatter click … oh no…

db2 ,

I learned not to do that with the system plugged in. Only lost one expansion slot somehow.

Grass ,

Then one side of the driver notch shears off

qprimed , (edited )

those slots were near useless.

edit to say: one trick was to use the blank expansion slot plates to gently break the vice like grip the screw had in the hex stand-off. the metal used on the cheap “digit remover” cases was sometimes soft enough to loosen the thumb screws via the driver slot without the thumb screw breaking.

still nearly useless though.

AngryCommieKender ,

We referred to those blank expansion slot metal pieces as “keys.” They were useful lockpicks.

200ok ,

TIL!!

jeffw ,
@jeffw@lemmy.world avatar

I mean, I could’ve been doing it wrong lol

kernelle , to memes in Glad this is becoming a meme

“Publicly available data” - I wonder if that includes Disney’s catalogue? Or Nintendo’s IP? I think they are veeery selective about their “Publicly available data”, it also implies the only requirement for such training data is that it is publicly available, which almost every piece of media ever? How an AI model isn’t public domain by default baffles me.

Raykin ,

Great point.

Even_Adder ,

You should check out this article by Kit Walsh, a senior staff attorney at the EFF, and this one by Katherine Klosek, the director of information policy and federal relations at the Association of Research Libraries.

kernelle ,

Great articles, first is one of the best I’ve read about the implications of fair use. I argue that because of the broadness of human knowledge that is interpreted through these models, everyone is entitled to have unrestricted access to them (not the servers or algorithms used, the models). I’ll dub it “the library of the digital age” argument.

programmer_belch ,
@programmer_belch@lemmy.dbzer0.com avatar

The problem is that if copyrighted works are used, you could generate a copyrighted artwork that would be made into public domain, stripping its protection. I would love this approach, the problem is the lobbyists don’t agree with me.

kernelle ,

Not necessarily, if a model is public domain, there could still be a lot of proprietary elements used in interpreting that model and actually running it. If you own the hardware and generate something using AI, I’d say the copyright goes to you. You use AI as the brush to paint your painting and the painting belongs to you, but if a company allows you to use their canvas and their painting tools, it should go to them.

programmer_belch ,
@programmer_belch@lemmy.dbzer0.com avatar

I think that if I paint with my own brush a mario artwork that isn’t to Nintendo’s standart, they have the legal power to take it down from wherever I upload

kernelle ,

Really? Even if your artwork isn’t used in a commercial way?

programmer_belch ,
@programmer_belch@lemmy.dbzer0.com avatar

I’m really not in the know abput these things but I have seen free fangames taken down because they used copyrighted property even though the creators don’t receive a penny.

kernelle ,

I’ll compare it with the recent takedown of the Switch emulator Yuzu. It’s my understanding they actively solicited donations and piracy, both of which could be seen as commercial activities. Which in a project of that scale the latter was their downfall, meanwhile Ryujinx is still up and running. But we’ll see if that remains true.

Grimy ,

Copyrights and IP laws don’t only come into effect if profit is made. Fan products are usually tolerated by companies because it’s free advertising and fans get angry when it does get taken down.

When a fan product starts making money, it’s usually because it directly competes with the original IP and then they act. Even then, Etsy has thousands of shops with copyrighted content but the small profit loss doesnt justify the loss of reputation for the companies.

That being said, it’s the user who uploads it who is at fault and not the tool used to create it.

Ultimately, I think it’s the platforms that let users upload copyrighted content and celebrity likenesses that should be at fault. Take for example the Taylor Swift debacle. An image generator was used to create the images sure but twitter chose to let it float on their website for a whole day even though it was most likely reported in the first 5 minutes.

There’s also the fact that if we start demanding AI doesn’t use copyrighted content, it kills the open source scene and cements Google and Microsoft’s grip on our economy as we move towards an AI driven society.

kernelle ,

Oh yeah I was just showing an example! There is much more to it then just commercial, but it’s a very quick way get the attention of businesses. Whether it be direct or indirect.

programmer_belch ,
@programmer_belch@lemmy.dbzer0.com avatar

I think that if someone uploads mario doing warcrimes to twitter and it gets viral, there is no “I made it with my own brush” that can save you from Nintendo taking the artwork down.

This example also works with a fanart of a celebrity in a sexual context without any AI use.

programmer_belch ,
@programmer_belch@lemmy.dbzer0.com avatar

In my opinion making AI stop taking copyrighted content can only be enforced by making all AI development open source, datasets and models included. This is the way to loosen the control bigmonopolies like Google and Microsoft have over it.

the_artic_one ,

Yes, fanart is almost certainly copyright infringement unless the copyright holder grants a license. Many companies have an official license for non-commercial fanart and generally nobody cares about it but if someone really wanted to they could absolutely file takedown requests against all fanart of their work.

Natanael ,

The existing legal precedence in most places is that most use of ML doesn’t count as human expression and doesn’t have copyright protection. You have to have significant control over the creation of the output to have copyright (the easiest workaround is simply manually modifying the ML output and then only releasing the modified version)

kernelle ,

The existing legal precedence

I know that’s how law works, but there is no precedent for AI at this scale and will only get worse. What if AI gains full sentience? Are they a legally recognised person? Do they have rights and do they not own the copyright themselves? All very good questions with no precedent in law.

Natanael ,

The law says human creative expression

kernelle ,

At what point does human creative expression become a sentient being?

jaybone ,

If you rent a brush to paint with, is the painting not yours? If you rent a musical instrument to record an original song with, is the song not yours?

kernelle ,

Exactly! When you pay for a service you own the copyright, like having a photoshop license. I meant in other situations where it’s free or provided as research tools to engineers under a company.

rotopenguin ,
@rotopenguin@infosec.pub avatar

Read the fine print on that agreement

redcalcium ,

There is a rumor that OpenAI downloaded the entirety of LibGen to train their AI models. No definite proof yet, but it seems very likely.

torrentfreak.com/authors-accuse-openai-of-using-p…

100_kg_90_de_belin ,

“It just like me fr fr” (cit.)

ummthatguy , to lemmyshitpost in That was a close one
@ummthatguy@lemmy.world avatar

“Space is big. Really big. You just won’t believe how vastly, hugely, mindbogglingly big it is. I mean, you may think it’s a long way down the road to the chemist, but that’s just peanuts to space.” - Hitchhiker’s Guide to the Galaxy

turkishdelight , to programmerhumor in Solutions? Where we're going, we don't need solutions.

python is like that. someone waay smarter than you have already done this 10 years ago.

stevedidwhat_infosec ,

Idk I still like writing my own stuff purely pythonic when I can. Pythons syntax is the most “fun” and “natural” for me so I find it fun. Like doin a sudoku puzzle

mindbleach ,

I can’t get over the load-bearing whitespace.

stevedidwhat_infosec ,

This is the best way I’ve ever heard this described lol. You get used to it so fast, it’s really simple. Just indent your code like you’re supposed to 🤷🏻‍♂️

mindbleach ,

Does “like you’re supposed to” mean with tabs, or with spaces?

Because if someone else disagrees you are not going to have fun with their code.

stevedidwhat_infosec ,

Technically tabs are just spaces, so if you wanna play it safe use two spaces… probably. 😂

fushuan ,

Who TF codes with tabs? All the editors I know input spaces when pressing tab anyway.

I would not have fun in any language if someone inputted actual tabs and their tab size was different from mine. Chances are my linter would have told me, regardless of language used!

I have worked with OS projects in C and not even those were tab formatted.

mindbleach ,

Why the fuck does anyone use spaces when tabs mean everyone uses the same tab size as you? That’s what they’re for!

fushuan ,

Yeah, okay. Tell that to every code editor’s defaults and every open source projects source code that I have read.

Encountering tab indented files is like encountering ANSI encoded files or /r/n newline’d files. It’s not how it should be done. Sorry.

Spaces are there to ensure that everyone sees the same, tabs have issues with internal indentation of function declaration and the sort. Yeah it indents like correctly, but then you do need spaces to indent vertically called functions correctly and it always ends up being a cluster fuck. Spaces are a standard for a reason.

mindbleach ,

Stop lining up to function names like it’s fucking ASCII art!

It’s a hierarchy, not a grid! Did your function overflow one line? Add an extra tab. I don’t give a shit how long your function name is, you prima donna, your code should look clean even if some maniac is using 12-point Arial.

fushuan ,

You write as if you manually format stuff, auto formatters are a thing since ages ago that conform to stablished coding styles. Take up on stablished coding styles if you are against something as basic as lining up stuff to function names.

At this point I see that our viewpoints are way too different and that your viewpoint is quite disconnected from the coding world in general so, you do you, have a good day.

mindbleach ,

Yeah who ever questions established practices in programming. Nobody ever argues about style.

xigoi ,
@xigoi@lemmy.sdf.org avatar

PEP8 is clear about that.

mindbleach ,

Arguments on first line will not compile unless using precise alignment to function name

UGH!

Just-- yech!

Da_Boom ,
@Da_Boom@iusearchlinux.fyi avatar

At least untill someone sneaks a tab in your spaced code, and you don’t know how to make your code editor show the difference, or it doesn’t support showing the difference.

stevedidwhat_infosec ,

Only soln is to write Python to read the bitstream and detect several white spaces followed by a tab or vice versa

fushuan ,

That sound like a you problem really, detecting this is quite simple because any editor worth their salt will literally lint you an issue saying that tabs and spaces are mixed and the thing literally won’t be interpreted. If your editor can’t show white spaces, chances are you are one google question away from discovering that it actually can do that easily.

The more I code the less I mind the tool and the more I hate the ones using it wrong.

CapeWearingAeroplane ,

That will give you an extremely clear error when you run the code. Also, any IDE worth its salt should be able to fix that for you.

Even the error message you get from C++ for missing a semicolon is harder to understand and fix than this.

frezik ,

The problem is that Python programmers tend to think the job of readability is done just by indentation. This is wrong, and it shows in all sorts of readability issues. Many of which are in official docs.

stevedidwhat_infosec ,

Yeah pythonistas just group bad code into “non-pythonic”

It’s basically a credo if you aren’t familiar but Python is preeeetty explicit about formatting recommendations and whatnot so there’s really no excuse for poor Python practices/non-pythonic code

frezik ,

Then what the hell is this shit?


<span style="color:#323232;">class argparse.ArgumentParser(prog=None, usage=None, description=None, epilog=None, parents=[], formatter_class=argparse.HelpFormatter, prefix_chars='-', fromfile_prefix_chars=None, argument_default=None, conflict_handler='error', add_help=True, allow_abbrev=True, exit_on_error=True)
</span>

This is a mess. None of this ascii vomit is useful or enlightening.

I got it from the argparse docs, which is a core module. But really, this is just the way Python docs are generated. Every class doc has an ascii vomit like this at the top, and my eyes hurt every time I see it.

stevedidwhat_infosec ,

I can’t see what you’re referring to

frezik ,

Markdown seems to put it on one line, which has its own problems, but this is what it looks like in actual docs:

Argparse documentation

This is hardly even the worst offender; it gets worse as the number of internal class members goes up, since they all get listed out. This whole section should just be dropped in favor of simply listing the class name. Further down, there’s a bulleted list of the params, which is what you actually want.

In fact, there’s plenty more in that doc that could be fixed. For example:


<span style="color:#323232;">parser.add_argument('integers', metavar='N', type=int, nargs='+',
</span><span style="color:#323232;">                    help='an integer for the accumulator')
</span>

Too many parameters on each line. Do this instead:


<span style="color:#323232;">parser.add_argument(
</span><span style="color:#323232;">    'integers',
</span><span style="color:#323232;">    metavar = 'N',
</span><span style="color:#323232;">    type = int,
</span><span style="color:#323232;">    nargs = '+',
</span><span style="color:#323232;">    help = 'an integer for the accumulator'
</span><span style="color:#323232;">)
</span>

This also puts more whitespace around the key/value pairs, which gives your eyes more resting point. In general, erring on the side of additional whitespace around non-alphanum characters tends to improve readability.

This style can come into conflict with coding rules about max function length. The solution to that is to be flexible about max function length. I would rather see 40 simple lines than 10 with everything jammed up together.

Edit: interestingly, my Lemmy instance seems to handle syntax highlighting on the second add_argument example better than the first. That might just be the implementation, though; my vim setup seems to handle highlighting both equivalently.

stevedidwhat_infosec ,

I can only see the picture you included, my instance * likely blocks ascii in favor of input cleaning sorry to be stuck a pain!

CapeWearingAeroplane ,

I have to be honest: I dont see the problem of including the entire signature at the top of the doc, and the listing the params below. If I know the class/function, a quick look at the signature is often all I need, so I find it convenient that it’s at the top of the doc. If it’s a class/function I’m not familiar with, I just scroll to the bullet points.

I agree on the bit about whitespace in signatures though. Luckily Python allows me to use as many lines as I want within a parentheses.

fushuan , (edited )

Same could be said about people that don’t think that indentation is not important for readability. Both are important, but if you really care about it defining an auto formatter and customising it for whatever consensus the team has is the only way to operate anyway.

frezik ,

Same could be said about people that don’t think that indentation is not important for readability.

You should really avoid double negatives. What you actually said was "Same could be said about people that think that indentation is important for readability“, which makes no sense in the context of the rest of your post.

And I’m not saying this just to be a dick about grammar. I mean, obviously I am, but not just that. If your English isn’t readable, then I don’t trust your Python, either.

fushuan ,

My bad, I deleted part of the comment to rewrite it and forgot part of the original. And as you probably guessed I meant for it to be a single negative.

Good thing this is a casual forum and not a work environment where I would reread my code with care haha. There’s a reason linters exist in code editors, it’s for people like me.

flashgnash ,

Python whitespace is child’s play compared to yaml, which I have the displeasure of having to interact with on the regular

bob_lemon ,

Yaml is honestly just a terrible terrible format that is neither good for humans nor good for machines.

huginn ,

That’s true of basically all problems you deal with in programming. Unless you’re truly bleeding edge you’re working on a solved problem. It’ll be novel enough that you can’t out-of-the-box it but you can definitely use the tools and paths everyone else has put together.

Part of why I like kotlin as a language. It has so many tools built right in.

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