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GraniteM ,

Isaac Asimov, a very intelligent person, wrote a lengthy essay to the effect that he had no idea what intelligence was. He talked about how society would generally consider him more intelligent than the nearly illiterate man who repaired his car, and yet whenever something went wrong with his car he would go to his mechanic and listen to his advice as if it was being handed down from the mountaintop by Moses himself, because Isaac Asimov knew fuck all about car repair. He talked about how he thought that supposedly objective IQ tests were generally a series of gates designed by people already considered intelligent to keep themselves in power, and that they totally disregarded huge swaths of indispensable human knowledge and talent. Isaac Asimov, who has been published in literally every section of the Dewey Decimal System, concluded that he had no firm idea as to what exactly “intelligence” even was.

In short, how could one even define “the dumbest 50%”?

And that’s why Thanos should have made everybody half as large as they once were.

Aussiemandeus ,
@Aussiemandeus@aussie.zone avatar

I love the entire story, then your very solid and succinct answer

soggy_kitty ,

The dumbest 50% is everyone but me.

deweydecibel ,

He talked about how he thought that supposedly objective IQ tests were generally a series of gates designed by people already considered intelligent to keep themselves in power, and that they totally disregarded huge swaths of indispensable human knowledge and talent.

Modern psychology supports this, too. IQ tests are bullshit, and intelligence is not something that can be reasonably quantified in any meaningful sense without an insane amount of asterisks.

Also…are we counting kids? Because you’d probably find kids are consistently beneath the 50% line on any generic intelligence measuring criteria someone makes up.

ButtholeSpiders ,
@ButtholeSpiders@startrek.website avatar

I agree, I took a few IQ tests and scored high and initially it made me wonder is if everyone else was as concerned as I was watching our species being driven into early graves for yearly profit projections.

Suffice to say, most people I met who scored high lacked the foresight to even think we might be screwed. Which led me to a swift conclusion that your IQ doesn’t mean jack squat, it was a biased system that was simply a biased form of dick measuring.

Perhaps I’m disillusioned, but the best summary of our species is that old video of a chimpanzee in a zoo pissing in its mouth.

KoboldCoterie ,
@KoboldCoterie@pawb.social avatar

Many IQ tests, even ones that claim to be scientific, and especially free ones, artificially inflate the scores they give, to encourage the people taking them to purchase an in-depth analysis of their results.

Like, “Your IQ is 135! That’s well above average! For $39.99, we’ll give you this in-depth, 18 page question by question analysis showing how you stacked up against everyone else, and what your answers mean!”

ButtholeSpiders ,
@ButtholeSpiders@startrek.website avatar

I’m not sure if it was like that, since it was almost 30 years ago. They might’ve still been using smoke signals lol

scarabic ,

snort “modern psychology” calls pseudoscience on someone? That’s my laugh of the day. Thank you!

feedum_sneedson ,

SHNARF

Varyk ,

Love the tag.

and good Asimov story thanks

kSPvhmTOlwvMd7Y7E ,

Lol dude is asking for scientific way to define “dumbness” in a world with infinity stones and flying people

deadbeef79000 ,

Thanos selected the 50% luckiest people. That’s good for everyone!

Larry Niven enters the chat

GnomeKat , (edited )
@GnomeKat@lemmy.blahaj.zone avatar

I can’t get past how weirdly horny Niven was… had to stop reading the second ringworld. That being said Asimov gets weirdly horny in the later foundation novels too. Both of them really liked writing in way older men dating way younger women that just comes off as creepy now.

deadbeef79000 ,

Try Frank Herbert.

DogMuffins ,

Even with the classic definition of intelligence it’s just useless - not predictive or indicative of anything.

A student without the skills to learn isn’t going to learn much regardless of whether they’re intelligent.

Kahlenar ,

Ahhhh the GOAT. Seriously, as a smart kid everything else about me was ignored. Something wrong at school? You CAN do it, so just do it. D&D breaks up mental stats, but there’s even more out there. Int, Wis, Cha to start. Then there’s motivation, happiness, and empathy, and more. The mind is super complex and an int score of 18 being all that matters is like the saying “this hammer solves my nail problem, it will surely solve my window problem.”

HeyThisIsntTheYMCA ,
@HeyThisIsntTheYMCA@lemmy.world avatar

So Thanos could eat them more easily?

Willy ,

sorry to stop the circlejerk, but this is dumb. an intelligent person could learn to repair the car more easily and have more insight than a moron. intelligence exists and we all experience it everyday. the wais-r is a relatively good test, but no there is never going to be a perfect way to measure intelligence. you can say intelligence is just what the test measures which is really pretty non biased, but that’s reducing things too much. y’all know morons and people that are crazy fucking smart. experience in different subjects is distributed, but the ability to gain experience quickly is the biggest difference.

scarabic ,

Good questions from Asimov. But just like with car repair, he didn’t know this subject. It has been a field of study for a while, and researchers have worked directly on this core problem defining general intelligence distinct from specific knowledge.

This Veritassium video is a balanced overview of the topic: youtu.be/FkKPsLxgpuY?si=iY7QBEQK1DkzNhxI

Needless to say, no, the IQ test is not a conspiracy by people who are good at number sequence problems to keep themselves in charge of the world.

bouh ,

IQ of someone is not stable: it changes depending on how much you train to do it or the mental/psychological state you are in when you pass it. Thus it is not a sound scale to measure anything.

The fact that it is merely a ranking of people further push it in the realm of straight bullshit.

Feathercrown ,

How can you possibly measure intelligence separately from the mental state of the person taking the test

bleistift2 ,

In Summer the Eiffel tower is higher than in Winter. Does that mean meters are not a sound scale to measure length?

bouh ,

The metter is not determined by the average height of the eiffel tower. The average height of the effeil tower is measured with the meter. That is the important difference. The meter is also based on constant of physics, and has a very precise definition. You can’t say the same of IQ.

bouh ,

The definition for intelligence changed over the last 2 centuries because we keep discovering how an animal can fit the definition, and intelligence was used to separate humans from animals. Now it’s even worse because people are trying to separate AI from humans.

I like the concept laid out by Delany: in a novel he describe 3 levels of intelligence based on the understanding of various point of views, but it’s not a ranking.

The first stage is simplex: people don’t understand the science of the world, so everything is kind of magical but this concept of magic make the world hold itself and they can grasp everything and use everything with this conception of magic.

Second stage is complex: people have an understanding of science and they can explain many things, but not everything. And when they can’t explain something, they can’t cope with it, because they don’t have the conceptual tools for it. Thus they will either deny this thing existence of plug it into their existing concepts by ignoring the feature that can’t fit.

Third and last stage is multiplex : people can accept that there are theories different than the ones they know, ideas also. Point of views can shape the way you see the world, and even the scientific theories you have to explain the world can be seen as a point of view on the world, so changing this point of view can bring a new or different understanding of a phenomenon or thing or person. These points of view all coexist at the same time, none of them is more true than the other. Like the concept of magic, this allows to grasp, use or accept even the ununderstandable and the unknown, but with a better ability to understand than the simplex stage.

I like this model. But it’s more a model for open-mindedness than intelligence. But maybe that’s the thing.

RememberTheApollo_ ,

I really appreciate Asimov’s thoughts. Ethical hat off for a second - I would suggest removing the most destructive 50%. If someone is truly stupid they might just as well be harmless. However, removing the swathe of the population that engage in violence, greed, etc. would be a far better use of the finger snap than some metric of stupidity.

feedum_sneedson ,

I would characterise that as “ethical hat on”.

RememberTheApollo_ ,

It would be more ethical to give these things to the planet for free. They benefit the world.

FaeDrifter ,

Multiverse Thanos where he tries to wipe out the 50% most destructive, but snaps himself out of existence first because even by trying he made himself the most destructive person in the universe.

RememberTheApollo_ ,

Win-win?

bleistift2 ,

Do you happen to know where Asimov published this opinion and what its title was?

GraniteM ,

Found it!

The essay is “Thinking About Thinking,” ©1989, collected in the book Magic: The Final Fantasy Collection.

bleistift2 ,

Thank you very much! (Let’s hope this comment gets federated.)

MajorHavoc ,

And that’s why Thanos should have made everybody half as large as they once were.

Holy cow. However intelligence is defined, you’re smarter than I am. That would have been a really short film.

…and I’m just realizing that universe would look pretty much exactly like those little kid Marvel Adventures shows…

TheYear2525 ,

Would they all still exist?

pwnicholson , (edited )
@pwnicholson@lemmy.world avatar

I can’t think of an Avenger or even sidekick who I would put in the bottom 50% of the earth’s population. Even the dumbest are probably in the top 10-15%.

Edit: I didn’t really think of GotG as “Avengers”, but yeah, Drax and Mantis are probably gone, unless they’re somehow smart for their species. Or unless emotional intelligence is enough to save Mantis. I don’t know if we ever find out enough about Groot to know, but I’d assume he’s in the top of his species. I still think everyone else survives (Hulk survives via Banner, or at least Banner survives).

superduperenigma ,

Draxx believed he was invisible if he stood still, he even thought he was invisible while eating a bag of chips. I’m not sure he’s gonna make it.

Beetschnapps ,

Let the man try!

DudeBro ,

naw I’d say Drax, Starlord maybe, and Hulk if he was in Hulk mode are all written to be comically stupid

but yeah that’s probably it, most would survive

MajorHavoc ,

There’s a lot of generosity toward Thor in this thread. And I think that’s great.

Even though he’s going to rule Asgard someday, while his brother is clearly more qualified. /s

Kolanaki ,
@Kolanaki@yiffit.net avatar

@pwnicholson

Banner is still around, but Hulk is gone.

Maybe Thor, too.

Quinn definitely is gone. So is Drax and many characters from GOTG.

There are plenty of dumb avengers, though a lot of them have not been featured in the movies yet.

MotoAsh ,

Drax isn’t stupid, he’s just hyper-literal. If it comes off as stupidity, it might be poor writing or some assumptions made.

DarkDarkHouse ,
@DarkDarkHouse@lemmy.sdf.org avatar

He’s not just hyper-literal, he is slow to adapt, rarely displays any strategy beyond direct attack (which gets them into trouble repeatedly) and, you know, thinks he can’t be seen because he’s very still. Drax is loyal and courageous, but intelligence is not among his gifts.

morphballganon ,

Quinn?

Quill?

Kolanaki ,
@Kolanaki@yiffit.net avatar

Starlord. I always mess his real name up 😖

MajorHavoc ,

Yeah. The interesting money seems to be on Thor. Could break either way. Place your bets everyone.

ivanafterall ,
@ivanafterall@kbin.social avatar

It wouldn't shock me if Hawkeye disappeared. But then again who'd notice?

WarmSoda ,

He would definitely be gone.

morphballganon ,

Clint isn’t a stupid guy. In the show, he’s hard of hearing, which some people might mistake for being dumb if they saw him on the street, for example. But remember how scary he was in The Avengers. Guy could shoot an arrow into the wind and knew it would blow up an engine. You know there’s some crazy subconscious math going on there. Also, his counter-terrorism rampage in Endgame wouldn’t have been nearly as successful if he wasn’t a great planner and tactician.

magnetosphere ,
@magnetosphere@kbin.social avatar

Also, his counter-terrorism rampage in Endgame wouldn’t have been nearly as successful if he wasn’t a great planner and tactician.

I hadn’t considered this. You’re right. This is a man with no powers whatsoever. Meticulous preparation was essential. A mindless killing spree would have been suicidal.

This makes that scene much more unsettling.

dangblingus ,

He also could have just created trillions more planets so that there wouldn’t be natural resource shortages. Nope. Gotta murder quadrillions of life forms.

UnicornKitty ,
@UnicornKitty@lemmy.world avatar

Sorry that’s not exciting enough.

MajorHavoc ,

Yep. That’s actually what at least one version of Reed Richards does with the gauntlet.

MTK ,

The real question is which avengers would be gone. Putting my money on Thor

lud ,

Not necessarily any Avengers would be gone.

MTK ,

If Thor is on the upper half of intelligence in his kind then…

MajorHavoc ,

Good point, technically. But… We all know Thor would be gone. There’s no way the rightful heir to the throne of Asgard is in their top 50% intelligence.

Moobythegoldensock ,

Thor, Starlord, Drax, and Mantis would all be toast. Steve, Bucky, and Falcon are tossups because I think their intelligence is supposed to be about average.

pwnicholson ,
@pwnicholson@lemmy.world avatar

They’d still be appalled and try to stop him given their strong moral code. And given that they’d be at full strength they’d probably find a way to stop him and reverse things faster than they did in OTL

DarkDarkHouse ,
@DarkDarkHouse@lemmy.sdf.org avatar

Deep cut

deweydecibel , (edited )

I’m frankly astonished anyone could genuinely think the Avengers would ever somehow be more ok with letting Thanos kill “only the stupid people”. Like…that’s a very strange read on these characters to think they’d ever react any differently in this scenario.

But even if they were so morally and ethically bankrupt to think it may not be such a bad idea, the truth is killing “the dumber 50%” is still causing catastrophic secondary effects. People would lose loved ones. That’s enough of a reason to go Avenging.

Hell, how are we defining “dumb”? Because you may have just murdered every child under a certain age.

RootBeerGuy ,
@RootBeerGuy@discuss.tchncs.de avatar

You think none of the Avengers is in the “dumb” 50%?

Globulart ,

Of course not, didn’t Drax have a calculus scene in guardians 3?

Chriszz ,

He’s still dumb even if he can do calculus

Globulart ,

You missed the sarcasm mate. I chose Drax specifically because he’s clearly not in the top 50% and I havent even seen gotg3.

I thought it was obvious but actually I could totally see James gunn putting a tongue in cheek maths scene in a film.

Feathercrown ,

Drax DID actually subvert his intelligence in the third film

MajorHavoc ,

And given that they’d be at full strength they’d probably find a way to stop him and reverse things faster than they did in OTL

Good point. But I dunno. Thor is a big power loss, and unless Captain America gets a free pass for emotional intelligence counting, they’re short in leadership, too.

Showroom7561 ,

Thanos could have literally chosen 1000 other options that were better than killing 50% of all living things, and I’m sure nobody would have disagreed!

justastranger ,

He could have literally just wished for the best, most ethical solution to happen without even coming up with one and had the stones figure it out for him (i mean, one of the infinitely powerful magical space crystals is the mind stone after all, could totally just say it’s capable of thought)

Poob ,

Thanos was a fucking stupid character in the MCU. The human population is currently doubling every 61 years with a growth rate of about 1.14%. Assuming similar numbers across the galaxy, he didn’t do anything except cause suffering. He’s a very poorly written villain.

I guess to stay on topic, they would have looked at population growth, and determined that his plan was moronic, and fought him.

MystikIncarnate ,

I agree that Thanos is dumb, but he’s well written. He’s supposed to be stupidly short sighted; that’s his whole deal. He experienced a problem with his own society, and invented an idiotic solution that was readily rejected (rightly) by his own people. He saw the downfall after that and said to himself that the cause was that they didn’t listen to him.

When he grew powerful enough to do it, wanting nobody else to suffer the loss of their entire society like he did, forces the universe to participate in his little exercise with little to no regard for the losses people suffer, nor the long term consequences of his plan.

He has no ability to think beyond the small scope of time that encompasses his plan.

Sure, resources will be far less scarce for people in the short term, but, as you’ve correctly pointed out, in the long term, he’s simply delaying the inevitable, which is why his statement near the end of endgame is so poignant: “I am inevitable”. Then he snaps, and nothing happens because Tony stole the infinity stones, proving he’s not inevitable and underneath it all, he’s not thinking of the inevitable outcome of his plan (which is only delaying things at best, and is an actual war crime).

He’s convinced himself so throughly that his way is the only way that he refuses to even entertain the idea that there may be other solutions, which bluntly, other solutions may have an actual effect in the long run (more than 100 years out).

He’s meant to be fanatical about it being the only option and unable to be convinced otherwise. He’s written perfectly for that role.

Other means of population control should be considered, but he’ll have none of it. I see it as analogous to so many humans in real life that deny long term damages to the planet and to future generations because of short sighted “freedoms” or benefits that they may reap in their lifetime. A whole “fuck the distant future for immediate gains” kind of mentality; something that, quite bluntly, is the prevailing mindset of most capitalist businesses. It’s all about maximizing the present and damn the consequences.

Thanos is a literary tool to describe problems we have right here and right now, on a fundamental level. People do convinced that their way is the only way that they will do immense harm to their fellow humans (and/or other living beings) just to do what they think is in the best interest of themselves and others, without considering evidence or any discourse that may prove that their way may not work out long term.

justastranger ,

That’s because they tried to make him some sort of noble villain in the movies when he was just horny for Death in the comics and wanted to impress her

Poob ,

Thanos was a fucking stupid character in the MCU. The human population is currently doubling every 61 years with a growth rate of about 1.14%. Assuming similar numbers across the galaxy, he didn’t do anything except cause suffering. He’s a very poorly written villain.

I guess to stay on topic, they would have looked at population growth, and determined that his plan was moronic, and fought him.

CeruleanRuin ,

Ant-Man: Well come on, wait, you know, there are different kinds of intelligence, right? Please someone tell me I’m not making that up.

Crackhappy ,
@Crackhappy@lemmy.world avatar

I don’t think the hulk would have reacted at all, since he’d be gone. But does that mean Banner would stay somehow?

3laws ,

Hulk is not dumb, he just was born 30 years later than Banner.

We know that given the time Hulk also proves to Bea genius of his own.

figaro ,

Isn’t the hulk a scientist?

Draedron ,

Banner is

Feathercrown ,

They’re the same person now tho

phoenixz ,

50% was such a dumb number anyways.

It requires a single doubling to get back to where we were. To double, you’d need about 10 times a 7% growth. Probably within less than 100 years you’d be back at the same problem

Not to mention that when you murder a shit tonne of people, and when it’s over you’ll likely have lots of people getting babies, so you get a birth wave about 9 months later. That regrowth starts FAST.

Kyoyeou ,

This message was brought to you by the Rabbits in Australia

RaivoKulli ,

Build the fence! Build the fence!

Iceman ,

He was called mad because he wanted to return earth to it’s 1970 population

contextual_somebody ,

Yeah, because it’s so morally defensible to eliminate all of the developmentally disabled and republicans.

WHYAREWEALLCAPS ,

cougheugenicscough

mojo ,

rip grandma

ichbinjasokreativ ,

I’d bet good money that most republicans are smarter than AOC

Squizzy ,

Given they are republicans who harp on about one member of Congress that likely doesn’t represent them, I doubt it

FooBarrington ,

You think most Republicans could graduate cum laude with a BA in International Relations and Economics?

ChaoticEntropy ,
@ChaoticEntropy@feddit.uk avatar

Case in point.

Epicurus0319 ,

Considering that most are over 60 and believe in magical ecosystems that would suddenly stop burning with ever-increasing frequency and severity each summer overnight if West coast states where that happens most often elect more Republican leadership- and will now literally try to deny that it’s not raining outside- I highly doubt they’re that clever at all, let alone more so than one congresswoman who lives in their heads rent-free

onionbaggage ,

Done, how much we going in for?

rishado ,

Jokester over here

deweydecibel ,

Would they have all still fought against him?

I know this is No Stupid Questions but…come on.

Why on Earth would the Avengers react any differently? Is the assumption that they’re morally bankrupt enough to actually reconsider in this scenario? That somehow letting “stupid” people be murdered is ever, in any way, acceptable?

RaivoKulli ,

You see the Avengers are super big into eugenics. It’s in the subtext mate

idiomaddict ,

Hang on, do you mean “with the least capacity to be smart,” or is he killing all the babies and children?

Poik ,
@Poik@pawb.social avatar

I mean, the average newborn is smarter than the average politician, so maybe it’s not as bad as we think.

GnomeKat ,
@GnomeKat@lemmy.blahaj.zone avatar

Bruh babies cant even talk or have object permanence, don’t try to spin that as being smart.

Drigo ,

Maybe it should be split for every age group, I guess that would make it fair

OneWomanCreamTeam ,

I once convinced a 9 year old that dogs are just cats but older. Little humans are smart as hell 😎

RaivoKulli ,

Politician dumb

RightHandOfIkaros ,

I mean, he could have just created 200% more resources as well. Or he could have equally redistributed all the resources. The problem he was trying to solve would still eventually happen again, because solving the problem relies on everyone working unselfishly, which is simply not possible when humans are involved.

Thief OP ,
@Thief@lemmy.myserv.one avatar

Actually a good point. He should have just done that.

lazylion_ca ,

I think he should have cut the pregnancy rate to a third of what it is now. No one would notice. No one would die or be missed. There’d just be a lot less people within fifty years.

AngryHumanoid ,

OK while that would be a better idea the thought that no one would notice is laughable. We have detailed pregnancy rate records going back 75 years, an immediate 30% change would definitely raise a lot of red flags.

CrabAndBroom ,

I think he should have made everyone half size. Then they would have only needed half as many resources plus there’s a little tiny, angry Spiderman jumping around.

MrZee ,

I kinda like the idea of randomly distributing how much each person gets shrunk. Each person ends up anywhere from 99.9% to 0.1% of their original size. Think of the added chaos it would create.

Chriszz ,

This would make a great short story. People would probably divorce and marry based on size

MrZee ,

Yeah, I feel like it would create a hell of a lot more chaos than half the world disappearing. And hijinks. And genocide.

KoboldCoterie ,
@KoboldCoterie@pawb.social avatar

If they were half as large, they’d need less than half as many resources, as their volume would decrease by considerably more.

HessiaNerd ,

That wouldn’t have impressed death. He is into goth girls.

damnthefilibuster ,

Yeah, Dan Brown dealt with it in a much better manner.

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