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SuperSpruce ,

This entire war is a lesson that politicians who promote “security” over peace will end up with a less secure country than what they inherited.

some_guy ,

Fuck Israel.

kolektiva.media/…/ba1cb5b0-521f-4aee-9334-bd5ab1d…

Donate to legal funds for those who get captured by police on April 15th or get your ass to a demonstration. This needs to stop.

HottieAutie ,

www.a15action.com

My city isn’t on there, so I will be looking for other ways to contribute.

sudo ,

Effective tactics but I’m not sure they have the strength to pull it off. Its extremely high risk so unless you have a critical mass of protestors only the most ardent supporters will show up and probably be outnumbered by cops.

But I’m arm chair generaling here. I want to believe. Hope they have a bailfund set up.

Socsa ,

Holy shit, the thread about this on .ml is absolutely disgusting. Masks are completely off.

And I see all the hexbear .world alts are out in force in this thread as well.

KeenFlame ,

Thanks for the commentary so we know nobody is normal

AbackDeckWARLORD ,

I never understood why people constantly bring up other instances in threads. Why even mention it? If there’s no external attention on it, then it can be quarantined there

MysticDaedra ,

It's not retaliatory unless Israel has (recently) attacked Iran, which they haven't. It should be considered revenge, not retaliation.

Presumably Israel will respond in force. I'd hate to be living in Tehran right now.

MakePorkGreatAgain ,

Tehran will be fine, but all of the power plants and other critical resources? if Israel can stuxnet the uranium enrichment system how difficult is it to take out basic infrastructure?

ramble81 ,

unless Israel has (recently) attacked Iran

Um, did you not see the part where they blew up a fucking Iranian consulate in Syria is which Iranian sovereign soil?!

If you don’t consider that an attack, what would your thought be if someone attacked a US or Russian consulate in another country.

Miaou ,

Considering what the US did after Iran stormed their embassy in Tehran, this is all very ironic, but in the sad way

Chozo ,

Isn't attacking an embassy effectively the same thing as attacking directly on that country's soil?

young_broccoli ,

Didn't Israel attacked Iran's embassy in siria like 2 weeks ago?

It should be considered revenge, not retaliation.

Those are synonyms.

BlackNo1 ,

deleted_by_moderator

    •
    sandman ,

    I agree.

    It’d be nice if the occupiers just left.

    I’m sure the world would be a much better place if they moved to the US.

    Belastend ,

    Ethnic cleansing is okay if i do it.

    MagicShel OP ,

    I have a huge issue with the government of Israel, but I support the people of Israel. If piss poor government was grounds for total destruction then the US should’ve been annihilated during Trump’s presidency.

    Miaou ,

    Yeah Korea was OK, Vietnam was OK, south america was OK, the anti communist propaganda was OK, Iraq was OK, Afghanistan was OK.

    But orange man is clearly the worst of it

    MagicShel OP ,

    Yeah Korea was OK, Vietnam was OK, south america was OK, the anti communist propaganda was OK, Iraq was OK, Afghanistan was OK.

    I didn’t make excuses for those. I vocally opposed Iraq at the time, although I’ll admit having the entire government lie about evidence suckered me for a short while. But look, I don’t even think any of those are the worst our country has done pre-Trump.

    But orange man is clearly the worst of it

    Yes. Oh, I acknowledge there are one or two other administrations that could lay legitimate claim to the title of “Worst. President. Ever.”, but for my money Trump takes the cake.

    BlackNo1 ,

    LMFAO do you think id disagree with the destruction of the us govt? nope burn that shit to the ground fuck the usa and fuck israel both deserve death

    kokesh ,
    @kokesh@lemmy.world avatar

    I hope they’ll get what they deserve for everything they did in the last months. Genocidal state.

    Shameless ,

    I hope their government does, however I do not support the inevitable impact this will have on their civilians.

    Agrivar ,

    Why? Fuck 'em I say. More ethnic Jews live in America, the rest of them could have just come here instead of insisting on that stupid chunk of contested desert. The settler types over there are the WORST.

    Jiggle_Physics ,

    It’s close, but more Jews live in Israel.

    nifty ,
    @nifty@lemmy.world avatar

    I worry we’re weeks or months away from nuclear war at this point :( Sad day for humanity that these wars keep getting bigger instead.

    Kbobabob ,

    Who do you suppose would be the ones to launch them?

    catloaf ,

    Israel is the only country in these conflicts with a viable nuclear arsenal, so probably them.

    nifty ,
    @nifty@lemmy.world avatar

    I am worried the U.S. is headed that way, but I hope not!

    GrymEdm , (edited )

    There is no way that murdering top Iranian officials in an Iranian embassy on Syrian soil was ever going to be anything but a gauntlet thrown down. If it was almost any other country than Israel the world would be outraged. Countries like the USA and Germany didn’t pull support because of things like destroying hospitals and killing innocents, so bombing the embassy of a country as reviled as Iran inside Syria wasn’t going to stop them.

    Netanyahu knows his days in power are done very shortly after Israel leaves a condition of all-out war. Biden has told him that, his polls tell him that, and protestors tell him that. I think he’s poking the local bears to escalate and stay in power by extending the conflict. Both Biden and Trump have promised support so Netanyahu is acting with the backing of the world’s largest military no matter who wins. Pulling the USA and other Western countries into another war in the Middle East is his best bet of pushing that day of reckoning way down the road.

    ikidd ,
    @ikidd@lemmy.world avatar

    This was a completely blatant provocation in order to move the theater to Iran and keep the war footing going. If Iran were smart, they’d make a quick foray to quiet home pressure then just pull back and let Bibi wind down and face his corruption trial if he gets forced out of leveling Gaza because of international condemnation.

    Israel, you can do better than this prick. Get your shit together or you’re going to get left to your own devices and the rest of the world will just come in and pick up the pieces afterwards.

    JimmyBigSausage ,

    Iran will be dealing with bombs in their borders now.

    NotMyOldRedditName ,

    Iran claims the matter is concluded assuming Israel doesn’t strike back in retaliation of their retaliation.

    Of course Isreal is going to continue the matter though, they’re the one that started it by attacking the embassy.

    lennybird ,
    @lennybird@lemmy.world avatar

    Moreover, “Biden told Netanyahu U.S. won’t support an Israeli counterattack on Iran”

    disguy_ovahea ,

    *Iranian embassy is technically Iranian soil. Otherwise you’re spot on.

    GrymEdm ,

    That’s true.

    Maggoty ,

    He must not have studied South American history too well…

    GrymEdm ,

    I must admit my own ignorance about South American parallels, but I’m legitimately interested. I wouldn’t ask you to do my research for me, but do you have a good starting point to recommend?

    olympicyes ,

    Op didn’t make a point so you can ignore them.

    MagicShel OP ,

    Nutshell:

    • Iran has launched more than 100 drones toward Israel.
    • The Biden administration expects Iran will also launch dozens of cruise missiles and dozens of ballistic missiles.
    • It will be hours before the drones arrive.
    garretble ,
    @garretble@lemmy.world avatar

    The Biden administration expects Iran will also launch dozens of cruise missiles and dozens of ballistic missiles targeting Israeli government sites, not civilians or religious sites, a US official said.

    TFW Iran is doing war stuff more humanely than Israel has been for the last seven months.

    MysticDaedra ,

    What if Israeli government sites were located inside the homes of Israeli civilians? What if Israeli military sites were located underneath Israeli hospitals? Would that grant Israel immunity against Iran? Because your line of reasoning would be that the only way to prevent war is to put civilians in harms way, as Hamas has done repeatedly.

    Skates ,

    Since we’re 'what if’ing, what if we bombed the shit out of every Israeli embassy in every country?

    garretble ,
    @garretble@lemmy.world avatar

    What if some people were giving food aid to Israel and they told Iran they were going to give aid…then their aid vans were bombed by Iran anyway?

    Chozo ,

    That's a pretty low bar to clear at this point.

    PP_BOY_ ,
    @PP_BOY_@lemmy.world avatar

    What can I do to help as an American?

    lurch ,

    which side do you want to help?

    Jiggle_Physics ,

    Neither Iran nor Israel

    Deceptichum ,
    @Deceptichum@sh.itjust.works avatar

    Pressure your politicians to stop supporting Israel.

    Israel attacked Iran, and now they are getting attacked back. There’s nothing to do to help.

    bobburger ,

    If you think Israel attacked Iran unprovoked you really have no idea what is going on in the middle east right now.

    kokesh ,
    @kokesh@lemmy.world avatar

    Pressure your representative to divert all support funds from israel to poor Palestinians.

    sandman ,

    Lol.

    GBU_28 ,

    Pressure them, with money.

    Miaou ,

    I thought this kind of situation was why the 2nd amendment exists.

    sandman ,

    Nothing.

    It’s out of our control.

    Just look out for you and those close to you.

    mihies ,

    Thanks, Israel for dragging world into a war just because your genocide.

    FlowVoid ,

    deleted_by_moderator

    •
    mihies ,

    Hamas bombed Iranian embassy?

    Rookwood ,

    Hamas did not bomb an embassy on foreign soil. Hamas has not been committing war crimes for the last 6 months.

    FlowVoid ,

    Hamas has been launching missiles at apartments in Israel, for years.

    Nutteman ,
    @Nutteman@lemmy.world avatar

    Okay, well Israel glassed half the strip and killed 33,000 people. They went past self defense or even basic revenge about 32,000 people ago. Any other half-assed attempt to justify a genocide?

    FlowVoid ,

    And Iran is sending dozens of drones and missiles because 16 Iranians were killed.

    Nobody is interested in limiting themselves to self defense.

    Nutteman ,
    @Nutteman@lemmy.world avatar

    On an embassy. And Iran’s targeting non civilian infrastructure. Which Israel hadn’t had the decency to do. Man, wherever you live has an education system that failed you completely.

    FlowVoid ,

    So? Human lives in embassies are not more precious than whoever Iran is trying to kill right now.

    Nutteman ,
    @Nutteman@lemmy.world avatar

    Have whoever is reading the words on your computer to you google why that’s not acceptable.

    FlowVoid ,

    An embassy is no more unacceptable a target than any other civilian building. And civilian buildings have been targeted for years by both sides.

    Nutteman ,
    @Nutteman@lemmy.world avatar

    You didn’t do what I asked. I’d like to have a word with whoever is reading my comments aloud to you.

    FlowVoid ,

    I did. But whenever I google what you write, the results are just blog posts by anti-semites.

    Nutteman ,
    @Nutteman@lemmy.world avatar

    What is the literate person helping you searching up? “Articles about why it’s a bad thing to bomb embassies written by antisemites”?

    FlowVoid ,

    “Why it’s a bad thing when Jews kill people, and why you shouldn’t pay attention when Jews are killed”.

    Count042 ,

    Yet again the antisemitic trope that Israel represents Judaism.

    Stop being antisemitic.

    kokesh ,
    @kokesh@lemmy.world avatar

    I hope they will be able to get every israeli army bastard and while leadership. I know they unfortunately won’t, due to all high-tech defense systems given to Israel by the US. israel is just a nazi state.

    Miaou ,

    Obviously not.

    rayyy ,

    Biden has been on Netanyahu’s ass since the beginning but Israel keeps digging the hole deeper. Israel will discover, too late, that they doomed themselves - Biden tried and tried to tell them. Netanyahu, Putin and Trump are all cut from the same cloth. They are all losers waiting for the curtain to close on them.

    Nutteman ,
    @Nutteman@lemmy.world avatar

    Biden kisses Bibi’s ass you mean. Biden could have stopped this at any time by withholding weapons and money.

    Thorny_Insight ,

    genocide

    According to the 1948 international genocide convention, genocide constitutes “acts committed with intent to destroy, in whole or in part, a national, ethnic, racial or religious group.”

    There were around 250,000 people in Gaza in 1948. There are now more than 2 million.

    jkrtn ,

    Holy shit, wow, it’s the exact same thing Nazis say about the Holocaust, just with different parties involved.

    Thorny_Insight ,

    Wow really? I must be a nazi then and you can just dismiss everything I said. Good catch!

    jkrtn ,

    Correct.

    BTW you’re free to amend your argument so that you don’t sound like a Nazi sounds when denying the Holocaust. Maybe try some facts or logic instead of pretending population growth since 1948 has anything to do with whether or not actions are genocidal in 2024. Up to you.

    Nutteman ,
    @Nutteman@lemmy.world avatar

    You absolutely are and I absolutely will.

    BreakDecks ,

    There were 16 million Jews in Europe before the Holocaust. History tends to focus on how many were lost.

    I’m not waiting until after Israel succeeds at this before I call it what it is.

    cybersin ,

    Do you think the IDF wasn’t murdering Palestinians before Oct 2023?

    qdJzXuisAndVQb2 ,

    The IDF was. Now do Hamas. The answer is that they were, too.

    cybersin , (edited )

    Did hamas limit the food, water, and electric going into Israel too? Was Hamas making settlements inside Israel? Was Hamas controlling the border and movement of Israelis? Was Hamas controlling the outcome of Israels elections?

    Hamas bad, but Israel made Hamas.

    Thorny_Insight ,

    Did hamas limit the food, water, and electric going into Israel too?

    They would if they could. Instead they took the aid meant for their population and used it to build tunnels and rockets effectively resulting in the same thing except they’re doing it to their own population.

    Nutteman ,
    @Nutteman@lemmy.world avatar

    Not before they were created as a response to Israeli occupation in '87… Israel forced Palestinians into gaza and the west Bank in the late 40s. So around 50 years of trying to deal with occupation without Hamas. That’s a long time to be subjugated and not have some sort of extremist group gain power. So if we do the math… yeah israel and the colonial powers that helped create it have been the bad guy far more often than Hamas. By raw body count alone Israel comes out looking like a monster.

    Thorny_Insight ,

    Whataboutism doesn’t change the fact that Hamas has been targeting Israeli civilian population with rockets for years. Two things can be true at the same time.

    Thorny_Insight ,

    Blindly shooting rockets at the civilian population in Israel for years, raping and murdering civilians on october 7th and using their own civilian population as human shields are few that come to mind.

    cybersin ,

    IDF drops bombs on the homes of any man, killing entire families at once. “Human shields” do not exist, there is no point. The IDF has shown they will happily shoot through the civilians anyways.

    Thorny_Insight ,

    I’m sorry, was there an error in something I just said?

    bamboo ,

    Well most of it is unsubstantiated lies propagated by Israel, so yes. It is probable that Hamas has fired rockets into civilian areas, but I don’t think there’s any evidence on the rest of it.

    AmosBurton ,

    Dont confuse antisemites with facts. Jews are not human and thus hamas cannot commit war crimes on them.

    qdJzXuisAndVQb2 ,

    Moron. Hamas commit war crimes as a matter of course. How can you be so intellectually dishonest in your arguments?!

    Llewellyn ,

    What?

    BreakDecks ,

    Israel did bomb an embassy on foreign soil. Israel has been committing war crimes for the last 6 months.

    Llewellyn , (edited )

    I agree.

    I’m confused with the statement that Hamas has not been committing war crimes though: clarification about the last 6 months seems to be added for manipulative reasons.

    Nutteman ,
    @Nutteman@lemmy.world avatar

    No, I’m gonna thank the people who attacked an Iranian embassy. Fucking zionists and genocide apologists really love to jump at the chance to blame Hamas for everything, especially Israel’s own fuckups, huh.

    bobburger ,

    Hamas could stop the invasion of Gaza at any time by releasing the hostages and disarming. Instead the Hamas leadership are big chillin in Qatar living the good life escalating the violence every chance they get.

    If Hamas hadn't attacked Israel on October 7th, Hezbollah wouldn't have ramped up rocket attacks on Israel in response to the Gaza invasion. Then Israel wouldn't have needed to target the Iranian general helping to fund and coordinate the attacks from Syria.

    The middle east is a giant cluster fuck of bad actors being funded by Iran in an effort to destabilize the west and eradicate Israel. The west defends Israel because if they didn't then the surrounding Arab states would absolutely destroy the country of Israel and do their best to enact a second Holocaust of any Jewish people they could get their hands on.

    There are no "good guys" in any of these conflicts, especially not Hamas or Iran. Because of Israel, Hamas, and Iran the Gaza civilians are being punished.

    Don't say any stupid shit like I'm a Zionist or genocide apologists just because I understand that Hamas doesn't really give a fuck about Palestinian civilians.

    Nutteman ,
    @Nutteman@lemmy.world avatar

    I have oppositional defiance disorder. You are a zionist and a genocide apologist, big time.

    zbyte64 ,

    I understand that Hamas doesn’t really give a fuck about Palestinian civilians

    Then it would be ridiculous to expect Hamas to change tactics for the sake of Palestinians…

    Hamas could stop the invasion of Gaza at any time by releasing the hostages and disarming.

    And Hamas will do all that as soon as they start caring for Palestinians? They literally have nothing to loose at this point.

    Maggoty ,

    Hamas could stop the invasion of Gaza at any time by releasing the hostages and disarming. Instead the Hamas leadership are big chillin in Qatar living the good life escalating the violence every chance they get.

    I’m going to go out on a limb and assume you haven’t heard Netanyahu repeatedly say the hostages aren’t the end of it? That they have to destroy Hamas too? And that’s a pretty glib statement for the guys currently standing on the wrong side of the border.

    Just like the Russians saying Ukraine can end the war at any time with total surrender. Just let them win and do whatever they want then it will totally be over, we swear! There’s no way they will continue to kill civilians, occupy land that isn’t theirs, and bring in more settlers. /s

    The oppressors would love it if any resistance just went away.

    sudo ,

    Look this copy-pasta again.

    sndmn ,

    deleted_by_author

    •
    FlowVoid ,

    Why, did I disturb your echo chamber?

    Count042 ,

    No, just confirmed you’re antisemitic.

    kokesh ,
    @kokesh@lemmy.world avatar

    Fuck Hamas. But fuck Israel also. They’re not crazy idiotic islam nuts. They simply used what those islamist fuckers did to start genocide of innocent people. Fuck Netanyahu, fuck whole state if Israel. They got down to nazi level.

    Deceptichum ,
    @Deceptichum@sh.itjust.works avatar

    Israel are crazy idiotic religious nuts.

    FlowVoid ,

    Yes, I think both sides are full of hatred for the other, they have been at de facto war for years, and they both think escalation is a good strategy.

    The results are predictable.

    Kalkaline ,
    @Kalkaline@leminal.space avatar

    Ok, sure Hamas attacked, kidnapped and killed civilians, with 1200+ killed and another 5000+ injured.

    Israel retaliated by killing 13,000+ kids and 8,000+ women, with 33,000+ killed since then.

    I’d say that’s a disproportionate response.

    Count042 ,

    Remember, those numbers are from around 3-4 weeks ago. There isn’t any mechanism for continuing the count, which is why the number hasn’t changed as starvation kicks in.

    Maggoty ,

    We would have those numbers if Israel didn’t shoot at the aid agencies responsible for measuring and countering food insecurity.

    sudo ,

    Its going to be like Yemen where the official death count hovered around 4 thousand for years and then one day it was “oops it’s 400 thousand now, gee how did that happen?”

    MakePorkGreatAgain ,

    a little guy attacking a big guy needs to expect a big response. it’s moronic to believe anything else

    Maggoty ,

    The guerilla doesn’t need to win, just not lose. The correct response of you actually want to end the fighting is to attack the Idea. Which turns out to be a careful balancing act of of fighting radicals while respecting and helping the local population.

    This is… Not that.

    FlowVoid ,

    You are describing the American response to the Taliban. I suspect Israel saw what happened in Afghanistan and decided that it wasn’t the “correct response” after all.

    Maggoty ,

    It’s a bit more than just that. If you look at successful counter insurgencies throughout history then you see it’s the defining trait. Afghanistan is an example of what happens when you try to change the culture at the same time, have a corrupt reporting chain that doesn’t report failure, and the enemy can hide in the next country over. You can do everything right and still lose, and we didn’t do everything right.

    FlowVoid ,

    Fair enough.

    Still, I’m not sure if Israel is even performing a counterinsurgency operation. Hamas was in control of the government of Gaza, after all. This may have more in common with a regime change, or some hybrid of the two.

    Maggoty ,

    Regime change can be counter insurgency too though if the people liked their government. Imagine if the US Army sucked and Russia occupied the US. They’d have to fight an insurgency too. So there’s a lot of crossover. In both cases you treat civilians as gently as possible.

    FlowVoid , (edited )

    This is a war. What makes you think war is supposed to be proportionate?

    How many American civilians were killed at Pearl Harbor? There were 68.

    How many Japanese civilians were subsequently killed by Americans? About 500,000.

    Americans weren’t obligated to stop when Japanese civilian casualties outnumbered American civilian casualties. They were only obligated to stop when Japan surrendered.

    GBU_28 ,

    A “war” as you’re mentioning it is very different than what’s happening here.

    Sure, in a total war, massive nation state war , if one side blunders and gets a whole army, or a whole city obliterated, that’s just war. (I’m not condoning or calling for total war, anywhere. Just explaining a difference)

    This is absolutely not that.

    FlowVoid ,

    Two governments, Hamas and Israel, are shooting at each other.

    That means it’s a war.

    GBU_28 ,

    Nah.

    sudo ,

    Hamas is a political party not a government.

    FlowVoid ,

    Hamas is the party in control of government of Gaza.

    cybersin ,

    Yes, war crimes are good actually. More war crimes please! /s

    Maggoty ,

    The Geneva Suggestions.

    Miaou ,

    Who’s supposed to surrender? Theres no government, it’s not a war, it’s a massacre.

    AmosBurton ,

    Hamas!

    Hamas needs to surrender and release the hostages.

    sudo ,

    Ah yes, Israel is just doing what the US did in Japan, Korea, and Vietnam. Very apt comparison.

    Also the US killed way more that 500,000 Japanese civilians in WWII. Your just counting the atom bombs. We had leveled multiple cities with conventional and fire bombs before that.

    FlowVoid ,

    No, I’m counting total casualties. Roughly 200,000 in all were killed by the atomic bombings.

    Thorny_Insight ,

    Proportional response would have been to storm gaza and rape, torture and murder 1200+ palestinians - mostly civilians.

    Maggoty ,

    Nah their overall idea was fine. The execution of it is so bad it’s a war crime.

    Maggoty ,

    You’re forgetting something. 30% of those numbers from October 7th are Israeli military. And yeah it was bad that they killed so many civilians. But this number gets thrown around like they were on an unopposed rampage. Then there’s the fact that Israelis near Palestinian borders tend to be well armed and a picture of an actual fight begins to emerge.

    gedaliyah ,
    @gedaliyah@lemmy.world avatar

    Most of the Israelis who live near Gaza are peace activists and environmental activists who live there to help build peaceful relations with Palestine.

    AmosBurton ,

    Not anymore

    Maggoty ,

    Yeah I just don’t buy that. There’s obviously some but the overwhelming narrative of border communities in Israeli newspapers seems to have been a fear of exactly this happening.

    sudo ,

    Its not like Gazans were able to get to know their neighbors outside of the prison.

    masquenox ,

    Your proof of this?

    sudo ,

    There’s also the fact that Israel’s response to 10/7 was tanks and helicopters. Hamas didn’t level any kibbutz’s, the IDF did, because Hamas was there. Any kibbutzniks who died from friendly fire were blamed on Hamas.

    gedaliyah ,
    @gedaliyah@lemmy.world avatar

    That’s not what proportional warfare means.

    It has nothing to do with the numbers being proportional on two sides. It’s whether the military response is proportional to the military goal. The military goal in this case is the defeat of an embedded terrorist organization and return of hostages.

    KeenFlame ,

    The people that told you that are mentally insane, so you know. I know it feels good to have a rationalisation and that they seem reasonable. but they are emotionally immature men that have traumas preventing them from growing up correctly and now they are in a psychosis.

    No, nothing about any one killing anyone is about a military target goal. It’s not justified to do these things. Just like it was and is not justified by the terrorists to do them. Stop being a fool really that thinks this is normal to do, to slay an entire people. What the fuck man.

    gedaliyah ,
    @gedaliyah@lemmy.world avatar

    You are not upset with me, you are upset with the definition of a word.

    Obviously we all want a peaceful world, but when you have a group like Hamas that believe their god wants them to kill anyone who is not their form of extremist religion, how can you end violence without eliminating them? Israel tried for decades to avoid this type if direct conflict. That avoidance cost them and led to the deadliest day in all Israeli history.

    KeenFlame ,

    Huh? No.

    There are literal international laws, and people who spend their entire life around the science of proportional military action. It’s so much more than a word you can define.

    It is after a genocide people wonder what the fuck happened. But a few wonders right the fuck now what the fuck is happening.

    Military petsonell over the world work with you know real horrible game theory politics considerations that are mentally insane and some of these military spheres has completely lost their shit and are currently spiraling into the TELLTALE TEXTBOOK definition of the cycle where they become destructive and the world suffers from the consequences for years.

    It is repeating history. I don’t hate a word, I hate that you defend it with no objective partials

    FrowingFostek ,

    By that definition Israel is failing to meet its military goal. Killing SO MANY innocent civilians would be considered a military failure by any other western county.

    Unless the goal is collective punishment and not proportional warfare.

    AstridWipenaugh ,

    Yup, a total failure. They’re currently at -2. They’ve rescued no hostages and killed two “by accident”. The only time Israel got hostages was when the military was put on a leash during a ceasefire and they traded some of their own Palestinian hostages.

    gedaliyah ,
    @gedaliyah@lemmy.world avatar

    Israel does not keep or have Palestinian hostages.

    You are trying to establish a moral equivalence between kidnapping civilians from their homes and arresting suspected or convicted criminals. They are not the same thing and equating them only muddies the waters on the real underlying issues.

    AstridWipenaugh ,

    Israel has thousands of Palestinians in “administrative detention” that have not been accused of any crimes. Using a fancy word doesn’t make them not hostages. You are right that falsely imprisoning thousands of people over a long period of time as part of a standing policy of oppression is not the same as having 50 one time hostages. It’s way worse.

    hrw.org/…/why-does-israel-have-so-many-palestinia…

    gedaliyah ,
    @gedaliyah@lemmy.world avatar

    50?

    AstridWipenaugh ,

    Dozens, maybe as many as 100. There were only about 200 taken to begin with. Hamas gave back more than a third, and Israel has murdered at least several, that we know of. So sure, bicker about that number and give no fucks about the THOUSANDS of hostages Israel is keeping with no plans to release.

    Maggoty ,

    Lmao, no. Holding people without charges is kidnapping them and that’s the best interpretation. The words State Sponsored Terrorism exist for a reason.

    gedaliyah ,
    @gedaliyah@lemmy.world avatar

    This is exactly what I mean by muddying the waters. Israel clearly has an extremely damaged criminal justice system, but those underlying systems are not going to be addressed as long as the world refuses to acknowledge them.

    When you have activists who only understand half the story decrying Palestinian “hostages,” they draw focus away from where it’s needed. Israel needs serious criminal justice reform, but that is now than ever from happening.

    Maggoty ,

    I have an idea about how they could start, stop detaining people for no reason and holding them for years without charge.

    gedaliyah ,
    @gedaliyah@lemmy.world avatar

    Okay, so now you are beginning to clarify instead of obfuscate.

    You’ve identified a problem with policing; unjust detainment. That’s something that deserves attention. You can donate here to help.

    Maggoty ,

    I’m sorry but they’ve had time to reform that. What needs to happen now is the release of all Israeli held hostages.

    gedaliyah ,
    @gedaliyah@lemmy.world avatar

    I disagree, but at least you are understanding the correct meaning of proportionality and we can have a discussion.

    FrowingFostek ,

    What about my statement do you disagree with?

    gedaliyah ,
    @gedaliyah@lemmy.world avatar

    While it is impossible to have an accurate count, the best estimates are that about 1/3 of those killed have been combatants. The UN estimates 90% civilian casualties across all wars. The Iraq war was similar in that it involved urban, embedded terror groups and modern technology. The civilian casualty ratio was 77%. This war is in line with other conflicts of the past 50 years.

    It is still a terrible tragedy. War is always a tragedy.

    FrowingFostek ,

    50 years is a long time, improved technology should reduce civilian casualties not keep them in line.

    Iraq was a military failure, Israel’s assault on Gaza is a military failure, and the world needs to recognize it.

    gedaliyah ,
    @gedaliyah@lemmy.world avatar

    True. Unfortunately, I’m not sure that we have yet seen what a military success looks like in the Middle East.

    FrowingFostek ,

    Leaving the middle east, as politically caustic as the idea may be, its the only viable path to military success in the region.

    Maggoty ,

    The Iraq war was fought against a standing military. The follow-on counter insurgency was far less lethal to civilians. Call us when Hamas is running T-80 Tank Divisions.

    FlowVoid ,

    would be considered a military failure by any other western county.

    I doubt it.

    Western countries understand that ninety percent of war-time casualties are civilians.

    FrowingFostek ,

    Is your argument that the UN considered 90% civilian casualties as a successful mission?

    FlowVoid ,

    No, my argument is that Western armies consider that the expected casualty rate for wartime.

    The UN prefers zero casualties, and also zero war. But Western armies rarely live up to UN ideals.

    Count042 ,

    Argument made by an antisemitic genocide justifier.

    Nazis are in vogue again.

    magnusrufus ,

    You said that very incorrectly. It’s not solely about numbers but numbers are absolutely a fundamental factor.

    iegod ,

    “Let me just gaslight you with my definition”

    BreakDecks ,

    So you’re perfectly fine with the ongoing civilian death toll?

    masquenox ,

    Ah… mod team here has allowed a hasbara into the mix - that explains a lot.

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