Desktop linux has become great since I first tried installing it in 2002. I remember being in my barracks and I had to switch back to windows because I had no way to get the modem drivers I needed.
As amazing as the linux desktop experience has become, windows has really done this to itself. The windows experience 10 years ago was ‘fine’. Like it wasn’t amazing, it could be improved upon, but it did what it needed to do without bothering the user much.
Windows the OS has lost the thread completely. Its a travesty. I no longer recommend for non-power users to build their own PC (I’ve helped several family members who were going down the “I want a powerful computer, should I buy a mac?” direction and would steer them to build-a-pc+windows) strictly because Windows has become something entirely different than an operating system. Unfortunately, no Linux desktop experience is quite to the point where I could recommend it and not-expect to get a constant barrage of calls from a family member when they need to install a basic piece of software or their blue tooth headphones wont connect. Because of what Windows has decided to become, after decades of being anti-mac because of their ‘ecosystem’/ anti-collaborative approach, I’ve turned a corner and now recommend Macs for non-power users, but linux for every one else.
This increase in popularity has the potential to create a sea-change in that regard, especially if we can get people to support (financially) the teams that are putting these distros together. I really need a linux distro to recommend that won’t get me calls where I have to hop in and figure out why an nvidia driver that was working suddenly stopped working, what the hell is blueman doing, issues with audio drivers, issues with software compatibility.
Like I cant reasonably put my MIL on a linux laptop that I put together for her and expect her to have a good experience. So she gets a mac. But my nieces and nephews? No they are starting linux from day 0.
Cus I don’t want to get woken up at 6 AM to do tech support. I’m just not going to put Linux in front of someone who can’t do their own trouble shooting.
You can, no complaints from me, but I’m not going to do that.
I have, actually. I’ve converted both my elderly parents and aunt and uncle, over a decade ago, to Linux. They were first running Xubuntu, and now they’ve been running Zorin for the past couple of years. Both of them use an pure-Intel PC/laptops (no nVidia, no proprietary drivers) and they have zero issues. All they need is a browser for Facebook/email/etc, some light document editing, and the occasional prints/scans.
Linux works 100% perfectly for their needs, since all they’re doing is basic computing tasks. In fact the whole reason why I switched them over in the first place back then was because I got tired of doing tech support every time their Windows crapped out.
Yes. I even bought a generation previous in bluetooth hoping it would be issue free for my work machine I have to use windows on. I regularly have to turn it off and turn it back on completely. i also get random extreme video lag sometimes when bluetooth connects.
While I get the „windows bad“ point, linux works for your mother in law a lot better than for you because point and click has always worked well for linux from the reports I read. Please do not steer the tech illiterate to apple. It is dumbed down exactly to attract these figures. If you install a stable distro and dont go with need newest everything that linux elitists spew around, you‘re golden. System76 and Tuxedo Computers are the way to go as far as I can see atm. They even have their consumer ready builds of linux.
I’ve had two System76’s. Neither was a fricitonless experience. Its MUCH better than it used to be. But its not frictionless. I
If you arent committed to doing your own tech support, and lots of it, don’t expect things to go smoothly. They are way better than boutique linux distros, but by no means are they perfect.
We shouldn’t delude ourselves into thinking something is some way when it isn’t, just because we wish it was. The Linux desktop experience is 100x smoother than it was 25 years ago. The Linux desktop experience this year is 10x better than it was 10 years ago. But its still not quite there yet. Its not frictionless. It doesn’t ‘just work’, when people need to use software like MS office or teams. If I put someone on Linux who isn’t committed to the work it takes to run Linux (and it takes work; its easier than ever, but it takes work), I’ve just created an ‘anti-linux’ user; some one who will never be convinced to convert because they had a negative experience. One bad experience is all it takes to turn someone off for life. If my goal is to convert as many people as possible to Linux, I’m better off stratifying the users into those I can convert now, and those I may have to wait another 2-5 years for Linux to ‘get there’ in terms of a frictionless experience.
I think desktop linux will get there, but its important to be realistic about where its at.
You will never get a frictionless FOSS experience. Not today, not in 100 years.
For one simple reason:
It’s not human for something to be frictionless. The reason we are used to „frictionless“ is because us using this software makes them money. Its the crazy perfectionism some of us experience when overly stressed. Its unachievable.
I use apple products and it is everything but frictionless. My sonos app is a buggy mess, the linux version works without fail. It looks worse but it functions 10 times better.
Frictionless is marketing speech, an image we reiterate to ourselves because we were manipulated into believing it. Showing you ads for new apps while you drive is another example why apple is making everything as smooth as they can. 30% of every sale goes to apple, for absolutely nothing. For the service that apt and flatpak provide and which snap tries badly to recreate.
Apple is a kiosk system, you can only change very few things. Replicating that in gnome for example isnt very hard once it is set up. Put debian stable under it and an amd gpu and your MIL has a machine that works pretty much forever.
But yes, linux is definitely not „frictionless“ and you absolutely need to throw away the tinker mindset when designing a consumer ready device. Partly because they have been shown how great autocracy works.
I mean, I would argue that today that some Linux experiences are smoother out of the box experience than windows. I did a highend gaming rig with windows set up for a neighbor who wanted to be able to do a racing sims (chair, wheel, pedals, the whole shebang). I couldn’t believe how difficult it all ended up being. All on the part of windows and what it has become as an OS. Like jaw dropping difficult.
Windows is actively adding friction to their experience, so Linux just needs to do better than that. And the friction points with Linux remaining are frankly, minor and solvable. The issues for me always seem to be WiFi/ Bluetooth/ and audio drivers. The second big friction point is software instillation. I don’t want to jump in on the flatpack drama, but being able to install software and have it ‘just work’ is the other issue with Linux. Oldschool windows got this completely right. You download an exe, double click, press yes a bunch of times, and now you have software that works.
Those two pain points, which I think will be solved in 2-5 years in some version of desktop Linux (and even more likely to be solved with increased adoption), and Linux could easily replace windows as the dominant desktop operating system. Great progress in all of this has been made. We’re very close.
So I’ll swap out ‘frictionless’ for ‘less friction than the competitive equivalent’. It just needs to be a bit better. We’re very close. A couple more years, a bit more adoption, and it wont even be a question. In some cases, the Linux experience is less friction than windows. In a few years, I hope that most Linux experiences will be less friction than windows. Once that’s the case, the whole paradigm shifts.
Okay, that I can agree with. Thanks for elaborating. Quick follow up question: what flatpak drama? I know of snap and their proprietary bs and recent scamware issues but besides the fact that flatpak can push proprietary software from a vendor I dont know of any issues.
If I want a naive user to be able to have software ‘just work’, this has to be resolved. Its just too frustrating for any one not fully committed to slog through.
Okayyyy, got it. So the standard argument against progression. Make the system work better for consumers but dont put stuff in that actually does that. Like we use this in german „wash me but dont make me wet“. Flatpak especially works well now. The fact that you cant actually break dependencies (no idea if that has been the case) now is also very cool. Its also much easier for the dev to make the app and package it once instead for each distro - you guessed it - to make it more consumer friendly.
The flatpak hate especially feels like thinly veiled elitism. I get that it should not be proprietary so fuck snap but flatpak is okay in my book. :)
The flatpak hate especially feels like thinly veiled elitism. I get that it should not be proprietary so fuck snap but flatpak is okay in my book. :)
I agree, and for me its irrelevant because I will figure out how to make any software I need to use work. Flatpak, snap, aptget, straight from github, whatever, I don’t mind. I’ll figure it out.
But for some one who has very little patience for figuring it out, I really need a solution that for them ‘just works’.
That pretty much is flatpak (snap too but proprietary sets bad precedent). Install it, have shop, click install, it works. Used to be more of a hassle from what I hear but its easy now.
The issue for example with ubuntu is that they push snap so hard that flatpak integration seems kinda broken. If you use discover on kde/debian its like flatpak is just part of the ui. I‘m gonna make a video in a couple of days just to show how easy it is. Updates too.
The issue for example with ubuntu is that they push snap so hard that flatpak integration seems kinda broken. If you use discover on kde/debian its like flatpak is just part of the ui. I‘m gonna make a video in a couple of days just to show how easy it is. Updates too.
Will try to remember. You can follow me on peertube (from mastodon, no idea if lemmy works yet) if you dont want to miss it. peertube.giftedmc.com
Edit: I checked. You can actually follow a peertube account from lemmy. Should work if you put peertube.giftedmc.com/c/haui777 in your searchbar. Takes a bit until it federates though.
I’ve had my computer-illiterate boomer parents buy Macs for over two decades now because I wanted to keep tech support to a minimum (and because I saw the writing on the wall for Microsoft’s abusiveness even back then). However, at this point their next computer is going to be running Linux because I genuinely expect it to be no more trouble than Mac OS.
(In fact, their “next computer” is really just likely to be their current Mac but with Linux installed on it, because it’s so old that the latest version of OS X it can run is EOL’d. To be clear, that is Apple deliberately making tech support trouble for me, in a way Linux never would.)
I have several idiot family members running linux.
Its been zero problems. Of course they are not power users, everything they do is pretty much via a browser. Though one does have a scanner/printer set up (that runs with no issue)
only tech support I’ve ever done is get the question once a year asking “ubuntu says I should upgrade to this new version, should I?” and I say yeup.
My non-tech literate aunt has been running her Ebay business from a laptop running Fedora with unattended upgrades for 3 years now. She manages her expenses in Libreoffice calc and accesses everything else through Chrome and prints labels on an old USB HP printer. I don’t think she’s even noticed I switched her over from Windows 10 when her machine was getting slow.
My Dad’s laptop is also on Fedora (though he mainly just uses an Android tablet these days) and I intend to install it on my Grandma’s PC when Windows 10 stops being supported. So for the people who’d be happy with something like a Chromebook, which is a good chunk of older folks, it’s perfect and I can easily provide support.
That being said if I had to deal with helping kids who wanted to game and use Bluetooth bits and pieces surrounded by RGB crap then yea outside of a few well supported options it could be a nightmare depending on what they’ve got.
I believe I said it in a different post but 2023 was the year of the Linux desktop. Hardware like Bluetooth and webcams just work. Applications and games have gotten so much easier install thanks to Flatpak and Steam.
Now Plasma 6 is upon us. HDR could be supported this year. At this point avoid Linux only if it’s missing a specific app you need.
I mean most video games just work and I game on my machine daily. The ones that dont are limited to weird kernel based anticheats and that is very few games out of the millions of games out there.
Yeah looking at you Roblox 😠. Has anyone hacked that anti cheat nonsense yet? Right now I’m mirroring my android phone on my desktop to be able to see what I’m doing (I’m over 40 but I play with my kids in case you wondering)
I admit I don’t play video games anymore. Especially not in the last year (I did have my eyes on Baldur’s Gate). Perhaps I’ll start Palworld in a few weeks. I got a lot of games off Humble Bundle (I subscribed to Humble Choice for a year and honestly even with the discounts it wasnt worth it) and Fanatical.
The only game I couldn’t get working was the Batman Arkham Trilogy. Everything else I was able to manually force on Proton and play it. Monster Hunter World, Temtem, and GTAV were probably the games I played the most.
Mods suck for the most part on Linux. Though, I never try to mod new games.
I like Linux, and I don’t plan to use anything else, but yesterday my internet broke because swapping the GPU changed the name of the network interface
That is pretty annoying. I’m thinking of buying a new GPU myself. My Internet also runs off PCIE so I could go through the same thing as well? I wish I had another GPU to try this out.
I did look it up, it seems to come from the way BIOS names resources. Im surprised software such as Network Manager does not pick up on stuff like this.
It certainly could happen. You won’t have a problem, either NM will figure it out or you can easy change the network manually. It’s just that Linux is inaccessible to a typical person until stuff like that doesn’t happen:
I’ve had hundreds of GPUs, I’m a gaming hobbyist and help other people out, but I’m really super green in Linux. Lots of PC gaming fanboys out there with nothing but Windows experience.
As a sidenote, I bought a whole new SSD and I plan to switch from windows 10 to ubuntu (yeah I know) when I have more stability in my life. At the moment I don’t want more changes in my life because I have a lot going, but it’s coming
The haters will tell you Ubuntu sucks. Every distro has pros and cons. Use whatever you feel comfortable with, and if you feel like trying something else, do it!
ignore anybody giving you grief about whatever distro you use - people need to realise that gatekeeping an OS over minor UI experiences is a dumb fight that discourages normal users getting involved. Whether ubuntu is your gateway into other linux, or the system you end up using for 10 years - you do you, whatever is working is fine. In any case, ubuntu today is much better than it was even 5 years ago - like the comments on this thread say, things just work. You’ll still probably have to use terminal more than you should, but linux is becoming very usable for everybody.
Wtf is unknown? What, are they implying that people made their own OS? If the unknown is due to those pc not reporting what OS they have, well that’s most definitely Linux because Windows user tend to not care that much about privacy and Apple people tend to kiss Apple ass no matter what so they will not try to ofuscat their OS for privacy as for them having an mac or whatever is something they want to show off!
But no VRR apparently, at least according to a random Reddit thread.
Some of the ones on Amazon claim it in their description, but since the description is now the search engine optimization field, who knows if they do or don’t…
I have the adapter from Cable Matters I think and I’m fairly sure it supports VRR at 4:4:4 chroma subsampling. Tested it on a Hisense U8H. I stopped using the adapter though because on Windows it wouldn’t work with VRR, the screen would kind of go black when I moved the mouse. Not sure what it was.
I think the issue was a lot of things being sold in the early days of HDMI 2.1 that claimed full compatibility, but there was so little hardware that actually supported it all that most people had no way of testing. And I suspect all the usual stroke-at-the-keyboard branded Amazon specials just took all the existing HDMI 2.0 kit and stuck new labels on it.
I ask because Lutris was killing my network too and it took me like two weeks to figure out the root cause. For me, this is what was happening. I had Dead Space Remake installed. Lutris used the name of the game to identify it, but was incorrect. Then it would try to download assets for the game but apparently they changed the URL path. But when Lutris failed to get them, instead of giving up, it HAMMERED my DNS with requests, triggering pihole to engage its flood controls and kick me off DNS for 5 min.
If you use pihole, watch your query log live and see what is happening.
I am using pihole. I will take a look and see if that is happening and report back.
How did you end up fixing the issue?
EDIT: Checked in on it and this is indeed the issue. Heroic is generating thousands of requests and I assume phile is flood controlling it. Two questions:
How can I confirm pihole is flood controlling it? Found a message confirming the rate limiting under Tools -> Pi-hole diagnosis
First I disabled the flood control just to make sure I could get it working. I’m not sure about Heroic, but Lutris has an online database for games and I looked up Dead Space and found the correct game ID to set it to. Once it was on the right ID, it found the assets it needed and was done in under a second.
No problem, glad I was able to recognize the symptoms so quickly. It was incredibly frustrating too! Oh, one more thing to do is launch Heroic from terminal so you can see the output. That’s how I knew which game was causing it.
I was running Bazzite for several months before I switched back to Windows. Unfortunately for me I have a broadcom wifi adapter, it kept disconnecting every 10-15 minutes, and that doesn’t bode well for gaming. Outside of that I really enjoyed using it! At least my steamdeck counts towards usage of Linux…
Edit: also steam having to download pre-cached shaders almost every time I started up my computer was kind of annoying. I know you can disable that, but then you’re leaving performance on the table iirc.
Ooh I know, but there’s also a few games here and there where anti-cheat doesn’t work on Linux. Yes I know dual-boot like you said but I’m too lazy to switch between both.
usually you need to try out a few distros to find one that works perfectly with your hardware. always test them in live usb before installing to make sure that wifi, sound, etc works correctly.
Bazzit is based on fedora atomic desktop, which unfortunately don’t allow user to test before install.
OP might want to try nobara or just fedora workstation. I personally find ubuntu works across most of the hardware, but people will need to manually update the kernels to get good gaming performance.
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