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CableMonster ,

Are we really going with the trump is hitler thing again?

pyre ,

no, he himself is doing that.

CableMonster ,

Please tell me exact things he has done that have been like hitler? I need direct examples of things he has actually done directly.

pyre ,

ml

i don’t have time for bad faith bullshit but here’s a list that doesn’t even get into his hitler-like tendencies but noting only direct invocations of hitler: forward.com/…/donald-trump-hitler-nazi-references…

CableMonster ,

Holy conspiracy theory dude… “In a picture trump tweeted, if you turn it sideways and raise the light levels you will see a ghost image of hitler in the picture behind his head!”

pyre ,

yeah dude, none of it is intended, just whoopsie daisy, accidentally nazi’d again… yeah it wasn’t convincing for pewdiepie, not gonna be convincing with the actual fascist who says he wants to be a dictator.

CableMonster ,

When you see someone on the right claiming a thing that sounds crazy, that is literally you with that website you linked. Its so weird that stuff works on you guys.

pyre ,

as i said I don’t have time for bad faith bullshit. come back when you get one comment with positive karma.

CableMonster ,

So you have time to get into conspiracy theories but not respond to someone with a different opinion… Sounds great!

dudinax ,

He’s more of a Gaddafi, but you won’t like that much either.

Countries that go for these types of guys never end up doing well, but the fans never seem to notice.

volodya_ilich ,

Trump is a Gaddafi? Trump wants to nationalize the main sources of wealth of the country, to redirect the profits towards the majority of the population, towards education and healthcare and infrastructure? Trump is a weird form of socialist who believes in something analogous in America to the Pana-Africanism and Pan-Arabism that Gaddafi promoted?

What the hell is that comparison?

dudinax ,

They’re both conniving, self-serving authoritarian dummies. It’s true that Gaddafi had some virtues and Donny doesn’t seem to have any.

Xephonian ,

The more they push us to vote, the less our votes actually mean. Voting is a placebo.

Trump won 2020 and they’ll cheat again in 2024.

YeetPics ,
@YeetPics@mander.xyz avatar

So just go give up. You don’t need to comment about how hopeless it is, if you aren’t fighting the good fight then sit down.

Zink ,

What if they’re fighting the bad fight?

roguetrick ,

Nobody’s fighting the good fight on Lemmy. What do you think this place is? We’re not even on the cutting edge of Star Trek memes.

knightly ,
@knightly@pawb.social avatar

You’re so close~

Voting is a placebo, but every election is stolen before it’s even held. Party members decide who gets to run in the primaries and draw the congressional districts to ensure no third parties could ever hope to win. Actual competition between the parties is limited to battleground states, electors elsewhere have no influence on the outcome.

So, you’re right, but not in the way you think. The political establishment pushes an illusion of choice to keep the population from exercising its power.

chaonaut ,
@chaonaut@lemmy.world avatar

If you vote with the hope that it will fixes problem by itself, you won’t get very far. Voting is sort of the end of a political process, the other end starting in people building political movements. For your vote to mean something, you have to be voting with a political project. So, focus on the political projects: start building the structures that protect people first, without relying on the government’s approval. Support your communities of care and build your mutual aid networks. Don’t wait for it to be delivered from on high, get with people who also care about the things you care about and start using what you have to build what you can.

CanadianCarl ,

I thought Trump won 2016, and Joe won 2020… But I am not from the U.S., so I could be mistaken.

alcoholicorn ,

Yall need to learn some history.

The liberal SDP split with the communists, supporting “centrist” Hindenburg in the name of unity.

The communists campaigned on “A vote for Hindenburg is a vote for Hitler is a vote for war”

Hindenburg won the election, getting more votes than either the communist or fascist candidates.

Hindenburg, the liberal candidate, then proceeded to make Hitler the chancellor and staff positions of power with nazis while purging the government of communists.

The nazis then barely had to do anything to assert complete control.

The nazis didn’t get in power because communists stayed home, they got into power because the liberals would rather work with fascists than communists.

TropicalDingdong ,

The Nazis didn’t get in power because communists stayed home, they got into power because the liberals would rather work with fascists than communists.

Lets not bury the lede. You run weak Democrats, you comprise with fascists (or just do the policies yourself; Biden’s border bill, Congressional support for making criticism of Israel a hate crime) : this is the path you put us on.

FreudianCafe ,

Those lib kids would be very upset if they could read

disguy_ovahea ,

Cool. In this comparison, none of that matters and the Tweet has a completely valid point.

Unless you suspect Biden will be appointing Trump in his cabinet if he wins?

alcoholicorn ,

We’ve been saying from day one, that if Biden doesn’t move to the left and use every tool at his disposal to improve people’s material conditions, Trump’s going to win in 2024.

Biden didn’t just not go left, he tried to outflank the republicans from the right by facilitating genocide, ending covid protections, and passing the most draconian border bill since like the 40s.

This is the closest thing he could have done to handing Trump the presidency, short of appointing him VP and stepping down.

disguy_ovahea , (edited )

Your hyperbole is over the top. Trump’s Title 42 and Muslim ban were far worse.

POTUS has no reasonable control over grocery store prices, which is the part of the economy everyone is most concerned with. Last time an Executive Order was used to price fix the food industry, it blew up in Nixon’s face. Supply chain constraints were industry wide, and when the order expired, prices went up far past standard inflation. The other big concern is housing, which could be addressed with legislation if Democrats had congressional majority.

I completely agree about support of Israel. The only comparison is knowing Trump will be worse for Palestinians. It’s terrible to reconcile, but those are the options.

Abstaining isn’t voting for Trump, it’s refusing to stand in his way.

alcoholicorn ,

Trump’s Title 42 and Muslim ban were far worse.

Biden waited 3.5 years to end title 42 and tried to close the border. He has deported more people than Trump.

POTUS has no reasonable control over grocery store prices

He literally does though. But there’s a million other things he could have done when he had control. Instead we just get excuses about how powerless the party controlling both houses and the presidency was because of Manchin or the parliamentarian or the SCOTUS or some rules the dems set for themselves or norms or whatever.

There’s no point in quibbling about whether Biden was less bad than trump, these actions decrease how many people will vote for him. Implementing policy that makes you lose the election is refusing to stand in republican’s way.

disguy_ovahea ,

Wrong.

Biden ended the Muslim Ban on Jan 21, 2021, the day after he was inaugurated.

www.usatoday.com/story/travel/news/…/4240420001/

He ended Title 42 on May 20, 2022, but the measure was stopped by federal judges. It took until May of 2023 to be completed.

texastribune.org/…/title-42-border-judge-ruling-m…

alcoholicorn ,
  1. Nobody is talking about the Muslim ban, we’re talking about the more recent attempt to close the mexican border.

But it’s irrelevant, you’re still missing the point.

My point is that Biden’s unpopular actions decrease how many people will vote for him. This is how Biden ensures Trump will come to power.

disguy_ovahea , (edited )

Did you not read the second half of my comment? He ended Title 42 a year and a half after taking office. Federal judges stopped it for a year.

You wrote three and a half years.

You fabricate information in your comments often. I will always call out misinformation.

Cite your sources and stop with the lies.

Incidentally, you quoted my point about the Muslim ban in your previous comment. So yeah, we were certainly talking about it.

Biden has done plenty of good where Trump did nothing or actively worsened things for the working class, minorities, and the planet. You only select Biden’s worst policies to define his presidency.

alcoholicorn ,

It doesn’t matter if his excuse was some court he can just ignore and face no consequences asked him to keep it in place or if did it on a whim, he had the power to change it, he didn’t use it. It was in place for like 3 and a half years.

You’re not calling out misinformation, you’re quibbling.

disguy_ovahea ,

You inflated his inaction on Title 42 by two years. Quibbling my ass. I’m calling you a liar. This is not the first time I’ve called you out on false information.

Something tells me it won’t be the last.

alcoholicorn ,

He took an action that took 3 years to complete instead of ending it on day one and telling the courts to fuck off.

That’s keeping it in place for 3 years.

This isn’t misinformation, this is you being intentionally dense.

disguy_ovahea , (edited )

POTUS is the head of the Executive Branch. He has no control over the Judicial Branch other than appointing judges in the event of vacancy.

Telling them to “fuck off” is meaningless nonsense.

Also, it still wasn’t three years. From inauguration in January of 2021 to May of 2022. You seem to really want to be right. You’d probably have more success if you cited accurate information.

alcoholicorn ,

it still wasn’t three years.

Oh no it was closer to 2.5 years than 3.5 years!

Come on, you know this doesn’t refute my point.

Telling them to “fuck off” is meaningless nonsense.

The SCOTUS has no means to enforce its decisions. It knows this and has historically kowtowed to the executive when faced with its own marginalization.

The president literally can just ignore them, as Trump did when they made a ruling he didn’t like such as DACA. There’s some other precedents: revealnews.org/…/a-brief-history-of-presidents-te…

disguy_ovahea , (edited )

As I said, it was a year and a half when he ended Title 42. It was two and a half years due to Federal court. Your initial claim was three and a half years. Is it that hard to admit that you’re wrong?

I’m done with your repeated misrepresentation of my argument, and childish suggestions that “he can just do what he wants” and tell the judge to “fuck off.”

Good night.

TropicalDingdong ,

@disguy_ovahea

You shouldn’t engage with this guy. Its always a bait and switch/ false premise/ straw man with this guy.

You make a point about an actual bill (the mexican border bill), he makes it about trump and a muslim ban.

Its always in bad faith. Its a condition of blue MAGA.

disguy_ovahea , (edited )

Read the thread you’re so confident in condemning.

I cited my statements while your friend here repeatedly made false claims.

The Mexican Border bill you’re referring to is an Executive Order, not congressional legislation. Trump’s border Executive Order was the Muslim ban. Neither of which required congressional approval, and therefore are directly equatable.

Maybe you two should get a place together in misinformation land.

TropicalDingdong ,

Just downvote and move along.

Blue fash is still fash. They aren’t an allie.

disguy_ovahea ,

In 2016 I voted for Bernie in the primary, and Hillary in the election.

Using my civic duty to compromise for the lesser of two evils does not make me a fascist.

Name calling is unproductive and childish. Have a conversation or find someone else to use as your stepladder to superiority.

audiomodder ,

If you look at many people’s material conditions during Trump and during Biden, they haven’t gotten better. You can say whatever you want about Biden’s policies, his cabinet appointments, and how much Democrats have done when they hold power, but at the end of the day it hasn’t changed most folks’ lives one bit. It might be good metric-wise, but until folks feel like they’re better off it doesn’t matter.

Also, it’s hilarious to me how much shit Republicans seem to get done even when they don’t hold the House, Senate, and White House together, but the minute Republicans get one of those, suddenly it’s “oh shit Democrats can’t do anything”. It’s like Republicans are playing with nukes and Democrats are showing up with rubber band guns.

And no, I won’t be voting for Biden, I’ll be voting third party. And I know, you think “a vote for a third party is a vote for Trump”, but I don’t give a shit. I’ve been seeing this same “at least I’m not…” shit for 25 years and watching our country be sold to the highest bidder under both parties. At this point, if we can’t figure out shit out, we deserve to be razed to the ground.

octopus_ink ,

Supply chain constraints were industry wide, and when the order expired, prices went up far past standard inflation.

Just a reminder to folks emphasizing that retailers used that as cover for corporate greed, and a lot of it was lies. Various links:

dailymontanan.com/…/trade-watchdog-big-retailers-…

nytimes.com/…/grocery-prices-pandemic-ftc.html

news.harvard.edu/…/retailers-have-been-cutting-co…

Great quote from that Harvard one:

HBS research suggests firms have held off lowering them because it appears consumers got used to paying more

The FTC report that is the basis for the first three links above: ftc.gov/…/ftc-releases-report-grocery-supply-chai…

And don’t get me started on shrinkflation.

disguy_ovahea ,

That’s true of the post-pandemic food industry prices for sure. That description was regarding the failure of Nixon’s attempt to price fix with an Executive Order.

octopus_ink ,

Oh sorry I was clearly not paying much attention to what I was reading. Thanks for the gentle correction.

disguy_ovahea ,

No problem. Thank you for citing sources in your comment. I always appreciate substantiation in this world of misinformation.

protist ,

Biden didn’t just not go left, he tried to outflank the republicans from the right by facilitating genocide, ending covid protections, and passing the most draconian border bill since like the 40s.

This is one of the worst examples of confirmation bias I have ever seen. The Biden Administration’s entire record is out there for you to peruse, and you pick 3 things out of hundreds, possibly thousands, that you think justify your comparison.

TrickDacy ,

he tried to outflank the republicans from the right

You really expect to be taken seriously saying some idiotic shit like this?

Samsy ,

Outflanking the rights is a bad decision, because you put their extreme positions into mainstream.

Holzkohlen ,

I think it’s more like Trump getting elected and he is appointing Putin as US president. Which isn’t that far off, is it?

Belastend ,

During Hitlers Ascent to Power, the communist still considered the SPD to be the bigger threat and refused to march with them. And the SPD of the 1930 were by no means “liberals”. They were further to the left than any democrat has ever been.

volodya_ilich ,

the communist still considered the SPD to be the bigger threat and refused to march with them

…which was confirmed when they agreed with the Nazis… And when they collaborated with the Freikorps to crush, torture, and murder the communists.

And the SPD of the 1930 were by no means “liberals”. They were further to the left than any democrat has ever been.

Go ask Rosa Luxembourg, leader of communists in Germany and murdered at 47 at the order of SPD, how progressive and left the SPD was. “Left is when you agree to murder and torture communists”. Fucking revisionists man

Belastend ,

They agreed with Hitler? They were the only faction voting against him during the Gleichschaltungkrise.

“Left is when you agree tp torture and murder communists”. So we both agree that the Stalinist Sovietunion and the KPD, which allied themselves with them arent left?

No, both SPD and KPD were way to the left of all pther political parties and had they banded together, like they did during the Kappputsch, my homecountry wouldnt have been destroyed and 60 Million People would probably still be alive. After every other institution failed Germany, these two failed them in conjunction by not even trying to organize a joined force.

volodya_ilich ,

So we both agree that the Stalinist Sovietunion and the KPD, which allied themselves with them arent left?

One country ended up with Nazis. The other ended up defeating the Nazis. I’d say the Bolsheviks did a better job, didn’t they? The fact that there was oppression against Mensheviks and SRs in the context of a civil war, doesn’t mean they’re anticommunists, they didn’t quite literally enable the Nazis in order to murder the ones who were more communist than them, but defeat them instead.

Want to find the blame for Nazism in Germany? The fault is primarily of Nazis, and then of Nazi enablers, and then of anti-communist leftists.

HelixDab2 ,

The other ended up defeating the Nazis. I’d say the Bolsheviks did a better job, didn’t they?

Uh. The Bolsheviks actively collaborated with Hitler and the Nazis, right up until Operation Barbarossa. The Soviets carved up Poland between themselves and Germany, and tried to invade Finland (Winter War, Continuation War), which is why the Finns ended up allying with the Nazis after Operation Barbarossa.

volodya_ilich ,

Got it bro, the actual Nazis aren’t the Nazis, neither the ones who eliminated the most radical oppositors to Nazism, but actually the ones that died 26+mn of trying to fight them. God, you anti-communist revisionists are exhausting.

The Bolsheviks actively collaborated with Hitler and the Nazis, right up until Operation Barbarossa

Ugh, not this Nazi talking point again… The Soviet Union pursued for all the 30s a policy called “collective security”, in which it desperately tried to achieve mutual-defense pacts with England, France and Poland because the soviets knew that their 15-year-old nation which had only just started industrializing since the end of the feudal and backwards Russian Empire, didn’t have a chance alone against the Nazis with their 150 year long history of industry (as would be seen later with the USSR suffering 26+mn deaths during the war, in places like Belarus 1 in 4 people died). The USSR wanted these mutual defense agreements to the point of offering to send 1 million soldiers to France and England if they agreed to mutual defense… which France, England and Poland denied because they thought Nazis would attempt their declared goal of eliminating communisnm and massacring the “slavic untermenschen”. After this was denied and it was obvious that the west would rather see the USSR invaded than reach a mutual defense agreement, they did the only possible course of action: delaying the war as much as possible to prepare for it and industrialize a bit more. That’s where the Molotov-Ribbentrop pact takes place, not before a decade of exhausting every possible negotiation route with France and England in opposition to Nazism.

The fact that the USSR then proceeded to (rather bloodlessly, around 50k deaths overall, very comparable to the oppression within the USSR itself) invade Poland, has to do with the USSR not trusting the Polish government. Why? In 1917, the Bolshevik revolution drafted an unprecedentedly progressive constitution which granted the right to self-determination and lawful secession to all peoples of the former Russian Empire. That’s how many countries such as Finland or Poland suddenly gained independence lawfully and peacefully in a never-before-seen act of respect of the right of self-determination. What did Poland immediately proceed to do? Become fully nationalist, ignore the right to self-determination of other peoples, and invade Ukraine (and later the USSR) in an attempt to gain territories they considered theirs by historical right. When they had conquered a good chunk of modern Ukraine and Belarus, the Polish Government decided it was a good idea to start a war against the USSR, since the USSR was plunged deep into a civil war and didn’t have many resources or troops to defend itself, and some conquests and victories could grant them a positive peace agreement which granted the territories the Polish Nationalists considered theirs (while ignoring the right to self-determination that the Bolsheviks had granted them less than two years earlier). Poland was also happy to make peace and appeasement treaties with Nazi Germany as long as they could also get some territorial gains from Czechoslovak land.

Similarly, Finland in 1917 after gaining independence, was plunged into a civil war between communists and whites, which the latter won and proceeded to imprison communists in Finland who had supported the Reds, around 80k of which some 12k died (funny how nobody talks about that). The USSR had reasons to suspect of a possible alliance between the Finnish government and the Nazis, and proceeded to invade Finland. After the failure of the invasion, as you said, Finland joined the Nazis.

Blaming the USSR for entering a non-aggression treaty with the Nazis, when all western nations had done it, and after 10 years of the USSR trying to make mutual defense agreement with Poland, England and France, is at best ignorant, and at worst purposefully misinforming with an agenda. The USSR had reasons to suspect of Poland and Finland (especially given its history of constant betrayals by all European powers since the October Revolution, with 14 countries sending troops to aid the Tsarist loyalists against the Bolsheviks) and, while outright invasions may not be justified, it could all have been prevented if the western powers had actually agreed to fight nazism. It’s absolutely nuts to blame the USSR and call them “collaborators with Nazis” given the historical background of the two decades before the war, especially the latter.

HelixDab2 ,

rather bloodlessly, around 50k deaths overall,

Wut.

50,000 deaths is ‘rather bloodlessly’? And since that’s comparable to oppression within the USSR, it’s not that bad?

while outright invasions may not be justified,

Correct. That, right there, is the most important point you’ve made. They collaborated with Nazis to carve up territories, and were then shocked when the Nazis turned on them. As far as the appeasement pacts made with Nazi Germany by France, England, et al., there’s very, very good reasons why the Vichy gov’t and Quisling are viewed so negatively by everyone that isn’t an apologist.

volodya_ilich ,

Good job evading the uncomfortable 90% of my comment. Since we’re at that point, I will proceed to evade 100% of yours, seeing how you’re not interested in discussing actual facts such as the reasons for the USSR to make a non aggression treaty with the Nazis after a decade of systematic rejection of military alliances by Poland, England and France.

MindTraveller ,

Wowsers, that’s horrible! I’ll make sure not to vote for Biden if he nominates Trump as his VP.

Aceticon ,

It looks a lot like in a way History is repeating itself: the Democrat Establishment in the US (who are a hard neoliberals, not lefties) fielded directly and without a Primary a guy like Biden who is less than in his prime and even supports an ethno-Fascist regime commiting Genocide (and, more importantly, is unwilling to walk back on that support even to improve his odds of winning against Trump, which is what we are being told is the most important thing in the World) all of which is making it far more likely that the Fascists will get power.

There are vast contradictions between what we are being told is the danger of Trump getting elected and the DNC and Biden persistently making choices that increase the chances of Trump getting elected and not walking back on those.

Surelly if “Stop Trump” is the most important thing in the World for them, the Democrat Establishment too would be walking towards the wishes of the electorate not just trying to push the electorate to do all the walking towards the wishes of the Democrat Establishment.

Krauerking ,

Agreed.

We can’t say we must do everything to stop Trump and then shrug and say hold your nose and vote for the guy that’s polling poorly.
That’s not trying everything that’s people in power wanting one outcome that are willing to risk everything they say they don’t want because the scared masses should hopefully fall in line without even a backup plan for it not working.

This isn’t trying and doing everything to stop a fascist dictator taking power this is capitalist conservatives trying to stretch out their win for a little bit longer using what they think is a sure win. This can only ever end poorly even if it’s just another 4 years later from now.

eldavi ,

the democrat establishment is already getting what they want from voters and the system and they won’t get any of the blame should they lose; so they both have no reason to change nor do they have anything to risk by trying something new.

those contradictions you referenced are the centrists version of fox news stoking the culture war, but more vague because they’re trying to appeal both both centrists and leftist; that and project 2025 are the talking points that the moderates are parroting to justify against voting progressively, thus proving martin luther king’s opinion of the the american moderate is true.

umbrella , (edited )
@umbrella@lemmy.ml avatar

and lets not forget what stopped hitler wasnt electoralism. it was the soviets, and they needed force at that point.

PRUSSIA_x86 ,

And the Ukrainians, and the Poles, and the French resistance, and the British, and the Americans, and the Canadians, and…

umbrella , (edited )
@umbrella@lemmy.ml avatar

the soviets were the ones to bear the weight of all the casualties. while your heroes were sipping tea waiting for them to be destroyed by the nazis…

the british, really? americans? yall need to open a history book. ever heard of operation paperclip? or how anticommunist most of these were?

PRUSSIA_x86 ,

Exactly, the country that shared a massive land border with the NAZIs and was a direct target of their aggression suffered many more casualties than the ones what didn’t, who’da thunk it? Without the combined efforts of essentially the entire rest of the world, the USSR would have been toast.

umbrella ,
@umbrella@lemmy.ml avatar

yall need some history. the USSR and germany did not share borders until much later, the west was nowhere to be found by the time they reached berlin.

the us mostly really only helped by the end when victory over nazis was already on the horizon.

PRUSSIA_x86 ,

They didn’t share a border until the Soviets and NAZIs jointly invaded their neighbor Poland.

umbrella ,
@umbrella@lemmy.ml avatar

no such thing as “jointly invaded”

Facebones ,

The Democratic platform if they actually acted to stop the rise of fascism and codified basic human rights:

the page is blank

Linkerbaan ,
@Linkerbaan@lemmy.world avatar

Something about a Genocide and never again…

Do you mean the Germans should have voted for Hitler harder OP?

Wogi ,

They had better turn out in that electron than the US did in 2020, by 20%, and the Nazi party won a decisive victory. This meme doesn’t check out.

some_guy ,

Hitler was appointed chancellor by Hindenburg. He wasn’t voted in by the people.

UnderpantsWeevil ,
@UnderpantsWeevil@lemmy.world avatar

Even setting aside the bit of history where the SDP party rallied around Hindenburg because of their deep and abiding fear of the Evil Russian Backed KDP party (god damn, everything old really is new again), there were three different elections from July of '32 to March of '33. The Nazis took 37% of the seats in July, dipped down to 32% in November, and then jumped to 43% the following March.

And then, what really kicked off martial law was the Reichstagg fire, which was blamed on Tankie Antifa Far-Left Communists and used to justify a Nazi-lead state of martial law. Liberals, Conservatives, and Fascists all united under a single banner in their staunch hatred of German Communism.

This was decades after German military police and Freikorps paramilitary groups under Hindenburg crushed the Spartacus League during the 1919 strike wave. The leaders of the movement - Rosa Luxemburg, Karl Liebknecht, and Franz Mehring - were executed by the police and the organizations disbanded under threat of further imprisonment/execution.

This, in comparison to the Beer Hall Pustch four years later, in which Hitler’s band of low-ranking military officers were tossed in the drunk tank for nine months, before returning to politics and rapidly climbing the ranks on the basis that he’d been martyred by (((bad Germans))) who secretly controlled the government.

Gotta wonder how this compares to the 2014 BLM protests, the subsequent police crackdown, and then the string of BLM leadership “suicides” where members of the movement shot themselves in the head right before being incinerated in their cars. Or the widespread bipartisan/corporate efforts to suppress labor activism in the rail, shipping, and Amazon distribution centers, the automotive industry, and the Starbucks-centric food service sectors.

Or the feeble efforts by US government officials to arrest/convict J6ers, the hand-slap sentencing of Alex Jones and Steve Bannon, and the stubborn refusal to federally prosecute Donald Trump.

Oh well, anyways!

Krauerking ,

Yeah we have a lot more in common with pre third Reich Germany than people want to talk about and it’s not just a voting for a crazy shouting lunatic thats making the comparison so eerily similar.

The staunch refusal to try and go left and actually make things better and give people to rally behind is gonna do a lot of the heavy lifting of moving people to the right and it’s not appreciated or understood by the people who make the memes about voting for Biden regardless of anything.

Buddahriffic ,

That does depend on who is making those memes. The bad faith propaganda meant to further divide the population targets all sides of all issues and it’s another very divisive issue. Any time I see someone making what should be a good point but in a way that will instead increase resistance, I suspect that’s what’s going on. It’s not a certain way to determine if that’s happening; anyone who has read How to Win Friends and Influence People knows that our instincts about persuasion are bad even before any bad faith is involved.

ssj2marx ,

I, personally, have learned from history, which is why I’ll be voting PSL in the upcoming election.

ZombiFrancis ,

Shit, the Freikorps immediately turned around after murdering the Spartacus League and overthrew the SPD government who sent them out. The Kapp Putsch. And the SPD compromised with them.

PersnickityPenguin ,

2014 BLM protests? You’re almost a decade early there

Userpc933 ,

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ferguson_unrest

ZombiFrancis ,

rollingstone.com/…/ferguson-death-mystery-black-l…

And the aftermath.

UnderpantsWeevil ,
@UnderpantsWeevil@lemmy.world avatar

Are we going to ignore the Ferguson protests after the police slaying of Michael Brown?

rottingleaf ,

because of their deep and abiding fear of the Evil Russian Backed KDP party (god damn, everything old really is new again)

You missed the moment where NSDAP and German communists kinda had intersecting constituencies, as in “angry young people with nothing good to do”.

Many stormtroopers were members of both at different points of their, eh, path.

And then, what really kicked off martial law was the Reichstagg fire,

Which was almost certainly a false flag operation by Nazis.

Liberals, Conservatives, and Fascists all united under a single banner in their staunch hatred of German Communism.

Such parallels always suck. They didn’t really have liberals in the Weimar republic. It was all conservatives, monarchists, nationalists, and some fishy social-democrats. And it was kinda authoritarian at every point.

This was decades after German military police and Freikorps paramilitary groups under Hindenburg crushed the Spartacus League during the 1919 strike wave. The leaders of the movement - Rosa Luxemburg, Karl Liebknecht, and Franz Mehring - were executed by the police and the organizations disbanded under threat of further imprisonment/execution.

Yep. You might consider that such a republic shouldn’t be so readily compared to the US.

I’m not saying future is cool.

TheReturnOfPEB , (edited )

We got monarchists. We got nationalists. We got conservatives. And most USians hate communism as an internalized educational message become reflex. We are not that far apart chronologically, either.

And not to mention the bunds and many American industrialists were very horny for Hitler not all that long ago. Those families didn’t go anywhere.

rottingleaf ,

This may happen, but not the same way, all I can say.

hark ,
@hark@lemmy.world avatar

There is a good reason why it starts with “first they came for the communists”

WhatYouNeed ,

Like losing the popular vote.

rainynight65 ,

It didn’t just take “Hitler’s death” for Germans to be able to vote again. It wasn’t a case of “oh look, he’s dead, now we can go back to democracy”. It took over a decade of political terror and violence, a devastating world war, and one of the most organised campaigns of mass murder and genocide in history.

Bgugi ,

This is not a shitpost.

TheDeepState ,

I’m voting for Joe!

samus12345 ,
@samus12345@lemmy.world avatar

I’m voting for Not Trump!

GiddyGap ,

I’m voting for Joe and against Trump.

suction ,

So brave

samus12345 ,
@samus12345@lemmy.world avatar

I’m not sure what point this snark is supposed to be making, but okay.

istanbullu ,

A good reminder to vote against genocide Joe.

Zoot ,
@Zoot@reddthat.com avatar

And vote for Genocidal Convicted Felon Trump?

Delusional ,

Don’t forget that he is a certified charlatan and rapist. Also he is a terrible businessman and overall shit person in general. Republican’s favorite person.

istanbullu ,

Being a charlatan and rapist is very bad. Supporting genocide and mass murder is worse.

GiddyGap ,

They’re poisoning the blood of our country

Trump quoting Hitler on immigrants.

forrgott ,

Wow. Reading this comment has lowered the IQ of everyone in this thread…

suction ,

Hey, have you kissed your Nick Fuentes photo today?

don ,

Thanks for the reminder to vote against dementia Don.

FlorianSimon ,

This implies that people care, which might not be true…

rottingleaf ,

What do you expect, people think Hitler was good for most Germans and restored economy and made trains run on time, and the defeat part oh well. Because that’s what movies show. And that’s because for commies Hitler was just a variation of the west, probably less capricious, while for the west Hitler was bad, but good against commies. So both would show Nazis as being better than their opponent.

rottingleaf ,

Wtf I wrote in the end…

Saledovil ,

He wasn’t even good for the German economy though, the Nazis produces a large GDP growth through massive military spending, they bankrupted the country well before the war was over, and had they won the war, the German economy would have crashed immediately.

rottingleaf ,

They’ve also ran a few state-level scams and Ponzi schemes to have the funds for that military and other spending.

Their business model was - step 1, cheat to have money, step 2, use money to rearm, step 3, conquer and loot, thus get funds that way, step 4 probably would be to force some peace, then rearm, then rinse and repeat, but they didn’t manage to capture a few strategic areas they needed in time. So they had fuel shortages, food shortages, and ultimately lost.

sfxrlz ,

Their system also only ran as far as it did because of the so called Mefo-bills

rottingleaf , (edited )

These fit under “state-level scams”.

EDIT: Still, while I wasn’t going to compliment them or something, it can be a valid strategy for survival to use anything to accumulate some operational power ; I can see a few nations (not all of them have recognized states) on the map for which it may be necessary to survive in the following decade. But Nazis didn’t have to take such risks, it was ideological for them that theft and robbery are better than honest work.

woelkchen ,
@woelkchen@lemmy.world avatar

There was no way Germany could have “won” anyway, unless it resulted in literally conquering the entire world. They were in a state of constant “mission creep” (to use a modern term). Early it was “retake the land we lost in the first war”, then it was “Lebensraum im Osten”, then Africa, the entire Soviet Union, etc.

ssj2marx ,

Ah yes, another fantastic reason to vote for Claudia De la Cruz in this upcoming election.

The Germans in 1932 all voted for the “realistic” liberal candidate, Hindenberg, and he went ahead and appointed Hitler as chancellor anyway. The only option to prevent the Nazis from rising to power was the communists, which is of course why the Nazis killed all the communists the first chance they got (with the help of the social democrats - don’t trust the squad is what I’m saying).

SatansMaggotyCumFart ,

Are you saying Biden will make Trump president?

ssj2marx ,

Since Biden has done nothing to curb the radical conservative takeover of the Supreme Court, he doesn’t have to. The GOP has all the undemocratic institutional power they could ever ask for.

SatansMaggotyCumFart ,

Ah yes, another fantastic reason to vote for Claudia De la Cruz in this upcoming election. The Germans in 1932 all voted for the “realistic” liberal candidate, Hindenberg, and he went ahead and appointed Hitler as chancellor anyway. The only option to prevent the Nazis from rising to power was the communists, which is of course why the Nazis killed all the communists the first chance they got (with the help of the social democrats - don’t trust the squad is what I’m saying).

Since Biden has done nothing to curb the radical conservative takeover of the Supreme Court, he doesn’t have to. The GOP has all the undemocratic institutional power they could ever ask for.

https://lemmy.world/pictrs/image/3cf6dbee-4fe6-48aa-a1b5-23d055c52490.png

ssj2marx ,

voting for liberals to keep the fascists out doesn’t work

our current system has already shown the tendency for liberals to let fascists into prominent positions of power

in the historical example, the Germans could have saved their country by voting for communists, therefore I advocate voting for communists in the present day

is that simple enough for you to understand?

foreverandaday ,
@foreverandaday@lemmy.ml avatar

Will also be voting for her, insane how many people think voting for a genocide enabler is a perfectly reasonable thing

LostAndSmelly ,

Imagine having a political opponent you consider equal to Hitler and choosing Joe Biden as the candidate you run against him.

doingthestuff ,

And after the debate you have to wonder who you’re really voting for. I don’t believe he’s really calling the shots. If it’s Obama or something okay, but let’s be honest.

UFODivebomb ,

Idiotic conspiracy theories like this is troll shit.

I don’t believe you are not an idiot. Let’s be honest.

doingthestuff ,

You really think he’s in control? He looks like he can’t control his bowels.

RedSeries ,

The only one who can’t control their bowels is diaper don.

sunzu ,

Cope

Lost_Faith ,

“Real men wear diapers” - seen at tRump rallies

UFODivebomb ,

We have actual multiple audio captures of Trump shitting his pants: reddit.com/…/to_what_extent_did_trump_literally_c…

That’s just one of many!

www.instagram.com/reel/CFf2cCWF1Ih/?hl=en

www.msn.com/en-us/news/politics/…/vi-AA1lVd3y

doingthestuff ,

I’m not a fan of Trump, and many very mentally sharp people have issues with bodily functions - that’s often part of life and I apologize for using it as a slur.

I still think Biden is looking unfit to be one of the top world leaders for the next 4 1/2 years.

FlyingSquid ,
@FlyingSquid@lemmy.world avatar

And after the debate you have to wonder who you’re really voting for.

The one who doesn’t pledge to be a dictator.

suction ,

Next you’ll be telling us about “big Mike”, right, Chuddy?

Wrrzag ,
@Wrrzag@lemmy.ml avatar

Yeah, and he went away not because they voted him out but thanks to Soviet weapons.

interdimensionalmeme ,

They did some rapes too !

volodya_ilich ,

As did everyone. There’s no study showing that the amount of rapes per soldier by the soviets is higher than that of other nations.

el_bhm ,

Oh fuuuuck of. There are books based on actual KGB archives that were opened up. Rape of Berlin is well described. There are books about the actual bordelos attached to armies. Western armies. Soviet officers had army wives. Apparently they still do.

There are countless accounts of people prefering Nazi soldiers to soviets. It is THE reason central and easter Europe hates russia.

No data on rapes my ass. But pleeenty of data that soviets single handedly saved the world from Nazis.

Get a grasp.

volodya_ilich ,

Wow, so the released KGB archives show the tapes. I wonder what would happen if the Americans or the English did that too!

Hatred of Russians by eastern Europeans is due to 30+ years of anti-communist propaganda. The fact that poles hate the USSR which liberated more than the very Nazis who genocided millions of them, shows this. And it wasn’t the case 40 years ago.

Polls in France after WW2 showed 70%+ of people saying it was the USSR who saved them from Nazism. Nowadays, it’s 70% Americans. That’s what Hollywood and propaganda do.

el_bhm ,

Yup, propaganda. Sure.

volodya_ilich ,

Yes. Propaganda.

interdimensionalmeme ,

I also only rape within the average of my demographic

volodya_ilich ,

What’s your point? Every rape is to be condemned and prosecuted. What isn’t fair is making up claims about the amount of rapes by a certain demographic and not backing that up with extensive evidence. That exactly what racist people do against immigrants, and that’s what Nazis did against soviets.

interdimensionalmeme ,

Prosecuted ? Yes, war, famously rule-of-law kind of situation…

volodya_ilich ,

My point is it should be

ssj2marx ,

We do know however that the Red Army had the most investigations of and prosecutions of rapists, so it’s a bit of a “Swedish rape crisis” problem where they look worse on paper than other countries simply because their record keeping of the crime in question is better.

el_bhm , (edited )

Oh, boy. Good that soviets took such good care of recording rapes. Unlike bad western nazies. White washing soviet rapes with statistics.

There is also one more reason. soviets had no bordelos for the regular army. Only officers had army wives. It is a known fact. So what would regular grunts would do is rape anything they find.

But probably western propaganda. Because in communism, everyone is equal, and everything belongs to everyone.

Like in current day russia.

el_bhm ,

I will let you know that you constantly excuse and support ultracapitalist nazi regimes. That makes you a nazi.

volodya_ilich ,

Tell me one I’m defending

calcopiritus ,

And only stole most of east Germany’s infrastructure.

ssj2marx ,

East Germany paid war reparations to the Soviets while rebuilding itself into an industrial powerhouse - the people who “stole most of East Germany’s infrastructure” were the West German capitalists after reunification, when the whole region was forcibly de-industrialized and left a shadow of its former self that still hasn’t fully recovered over thirty years later.

calcopiritus ,

Source?

ssj2marx ,

I read Stasi State or Socialist Paradise some years ago, I recommend it for anyone interested in a history of East Germany that isn’t written by West German propagandists.

SomethingBurger ,

And American weapons. Let’s not pretend that the USSR fought alone.

uis ,

And Brittish weapons

callouscomic ,

and my axe!

uis ,

And Fremch razor

el_bhm ,

Land Lease is just a western conspiracy!

Raab ,

It’s Lend-Lease…

Nyoka ,

Probably more accurate to say American trucks and raw materials, but yes.

ssj2marx ,

They did do 80% of the fighting, though. So lets not give America too much credit.

match ,
@match@pawb.social avatar

They did 80% of the dying, the current Ukraine war should be evidence that Russia’s force multiplier is fractional

WldFyre ,

Who allied up with the Nazis to invade Poland?

daniskarma ,

Soviets were the only ones who truly supported the Spanish democracy against the fascist. Every other country, including Poland, turned their back to us while the Luffwaffle was bombing our citizens.

pantyhosewimp ,

For Whom The Bell Tolls by Ernest Hemmingway is set during this period. Just a side note.

Heartwotalk ,

Homage to Catalonia by George Orwell would also be a good read for someone looking favorably on the Soviets during the Spanish Civil War.

UnderpantsWeevil ,
@UnderpantsWeevil@lemmy.world avatar

Wasn’t Orwell a British spy under Churchill and a professional anti-communist agitator?

lugal ,

He was radicalized against the Soviets because they did not support the socialist revolution led by anarchosyndicalists. Instead Stalin supported the liberals because he said it wasn’t time for revolution yet which is BS since Barcelona and big parts of Catalonia did well under anarchists. An anarchist revolution would undermine the “ends justify the means” and “there is no other way to socialism than ours” rhetoric of the bolsheviks.

TLDR He was an anti-Soviet agitator but from the left

UnderpantsWeevil ,
@UnderpantsWeevil@lemmy.world avatar

He was radicalized against the Soviets because they did not support the socialist revolution

Was this before or after he served as a British intelligence officer in colonial-era Burma?

lugal , (edited )

It was after. That also radicalized him towards class solidarity and socialism. He empathized with the suppressed indigenous peoples there and in the next step with the suppressed in his own country. He went to meet them and live with them as documented in his book The Road to Wigan Pier. Then, as a vaguely socialist, he went to Spain as documented in Homage to Catalonia. I read both books btw

PugJesus ,

Soviets were the only ones who truly supported the Spanish democracy against the fascist.

Curious that their backstabbing the Spanish republicans was instrumental in losing the Spanish Civil War for the republican side. Strange kind of support.

daniskarma ,

What kind of propaganda are you reading in which sending weapons, planes and officers (while all the other countries did NOTHING) is backstabbing.

Spain democracy lost because the allied powers did not care about us the same way the cared about Poland.

PugJesus ,

You’re on Divide By Zero, you should be fucking familiar with how they fucked the anarchists and the Trots, and that most of their ‘aid’ was purchased, not given.

daniskarma ,

I’m friends with everyone leftist, even if they hate each other. I can feel comfortable among anarchist, tankies, socdems, new age leftists, reformist, etc. Because I know what our common objective is and I just can’t care about the subtle differences. So I know the anarchist side of the story as well as I know the tankie side.

Being myself an active member of the social movement in my country and actually having watched modern day anarchist working with modern day communists I can say without any doubts that no version is true. Probably both starting arguing about stupid shit, and actual personal problems disguised as political problems, when they should had focused on the real enemy. But anyway I’m thankful for ALL who fought against fascism in Spain, anarchist, communist, republicans… I thank the international brigades, I thank orwell and I thank the soviets and stalinist. They all put their lives on line to stop fascism.

I just despise such an unproductive and harmful division of the left for shit that just does not matter when the true enemy is so big. And sometimes I just see a lust for internal division and eternal losing in such behavior. I don’t know how some leftists have energy left to hate each other after they should had used that energy to fight the true enemy, capitalism and fascism. And I say this for any anarchist who hates tankies and any tankie who hates anarchists. You are not enemies, the enemy is in other direction.

PugJesus ,

Because I know what our common objective is and I just can’t care about the subtle differences.

Even when those ‘subtle differences’ result in being backstabbed and sold out and the entire cause being lost against a fascist enemy, great. Subtle little differences, like “We need to purge the anarchists and Trots” should be met with “We need complete and total cooperation with the people who want to purge us 😊”

The true meaning of a united front, huh?

daniskarma , (edited )

As I said I have actually worked a lot in environments with a diverse leftist spectrum.

And in my experience backstabbing usually goes both ways and is a result of the previous hate (and a lot of the time because personal non political issues) not the other way around.

And yes. The only wins I’ve seen is when there have been total cooperation. Division is always the prelude of defeat.

And be ensure that I would be saying exactly the same words to any tankie who talks about “purging any leftist” no matter what their ridiculous arguments are for such a premise. I’ve heard it all and it is often just as untrue.

UnderpantsWeevil ,
@UnderpantsWeevil@lemmy.world avatar

IBM and Standard Oil

suction ,

Imagine thinking the Russian cowards were the main factor in Hitler’s loss 😂😂😂

suction , (edited )

So just 14 years, a world war, a holocaust, and an aftermath which still leads to new wars until today?

Yeah I think I’ll just be watching a couple of Netflix documentaries on Nov. 5th. Those are crazy, right?

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