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TankovayaDiviziya ,

How about increasing wages to promote more consumer spending? Henry Ford-- a literal Nazi-- of all people, knew this!

intensely_human ,

Henry Ford paid those high wages to his own staff. He did not prevent any other local companies from also paying low wages.

So Ford’s strategy had a significant advantage over minimum wage laws, in that his strategy didn’t destroy any jobs.

When you increase minimum wage, there is a sliver of the market that gets shut down: the set of jobs that made sense between the old minimum and the new minimum. Those are jobs that people were happy to work, but which they aren’t allowed to any longer. Those people are now out of a job.

When Henry Ford decided to pay his own workers well, he did so with his own money, and in a way that didn’t break anyone else’s existing economic arrangements.

In other words, he didn’t violate anyone’s consent in order to enact his version of economic activism. This matter of consent is the key difference between the actions of a private entity, and the actions of a government.

TankovayaDiviziya ,

There was no set minimum wage and companies at the time were against increasing it, until Ford set the precedence and the rest followed suit. He was the trend setter.

When you increase minimum wage, there is a sliver of the market that gets shut down: the set of jobs that made sense between the old minimum and the new minimum

Makes sense but…

Those are jobs that people were happy to work, but which they aren’t allowed to any longer. Those people are now out of a job.

Yes, I’m sure people were sad to see their old workplaces shut down who provide poor pay and toxic work environment, instead of moving to better alternatives!

intensely_human ,

If there were better alternatives they would have already moved to it. Being forced to move to something better is only better in the eyes of the person doing the forcing.

Consent is important.

bufalo1973 ,
@bufalo1973@lemmy.ml avatar

That’s complete and utter BS. Spain has risen the minimum wage from 735€ (2018) to 1080€ (2023) and unemployment has gone down. And if the raise in minimum wage is the reason you have to close your business you weren’t having a benefit on your customers but on your workers. And that has another very different name.

intensely_human ,

if the raise in minimum wage is the reason you have to close your business you weren’t having a benefit on your customers but on your workers

I’d say if the customers were buying what you were selling, then it was of benefit to them too

bufalo1973 ,
@bufalo1973@lemmy.ml avatar

That would be a benefit FOR your customers. A business has to benefit FROM the customers, not from the workers.

HessiaNerd ,

Those are jobs that people were happy to work, but which they aren’t allowed to any longer. Those people are now out of a job.

Happy to work starvation wages? Are you high? Desperate, the word you are looking for is desperate enough to work for starvation wages.

I swear this supply side fanfic is so out of touch with reality it would be laughable if I didn’t realize people actually try to set policy based on it.

De_Narm , (edited )

Something I don’t get, why is it percentage based? I mean, I get it from the waiters perspective. But as a customer? Whether my one plate of food is 20$ or 200$, he did the same thing. Scaling with more items or time spent would seem more appropriate.

greedytacothief ,

Well usually more people means a higher bill, more people is more work. Lots of places even just add gratuity to the bill once a group size is large enough.

But tipping is dumb, and working in the service industry sucks… I have no easy solutions.

Sprawlie ,

I have no easy solutions.

There’s an easy one that could be legislated tomorrow by any states.

Raise minimum wages and enforce it throughout ALL workplaces, including wait staff. Nobody should be earning less than a living wage just because they’re restaraunt staff.

greedytacothief ,

Politics is one of those things that’s easy when you say it, but much harder for you to do. But if that’s easy for you to do, then please do it, for all our sakes.

Patches ,

Nobody would work in a restaurant for minimum wage. Full stop. It’s a shit job.

That’s the secret nobody in the industry wants to tell you. They make way more than minimum wage on good nights. You could come away at $25-30/hr on a Friday night.

Tremble ,

Which is what workers at McDonald’s in other countries make per hour, not including benefits. Oh, and the food is cheaper than in the states too.

Sprawlie ,

Absolutely. it’s a bad precedent.

Minimum wage staff still get tips though. I still tip here now that it’s mandatory they get paid min wage. Overall, means that they make more than before they were earning min wage as well.

it’s a big win. They ge ta living wage doing their jobs and they get bonuses in tips on top of their living wage instead of relying upon it.

cole ,
@cole@lemdro.id avatar

Seattle’s minimum wage is $16.28, but most restaurants seem to pay a fair bit more than that. Tipping is still rampant and has not been reduced. I don’t think this solution would work

danc4498 ,

I think the $20 vs $200 was a per person price. Like, if I order the steak for $50 and you order a grilled cheese sandwich for $8, we both got the same amount and quality of service, why do we tip differently?

betheydocrime ,

Serving a $200 meal requires a lot of knowledge and physical skill that the server down at Chili’s probably doesn’t have. The kind of restaurant that sells a $200 meal also has a larger support staff that must be given a percentage of the server’s tip

NoIWontPickaName ,

What difference is there between serving a $200 meal and a $50 one?

_number8_ ,

pretension

GBU_28 ,

Are number of items fixed in your question?

If so, little mechanically on the waiters part.

But, a more expensive meal comes with higher service standards. More attentive, but not intrusive. More knowledgeable about the menu. More readiness to make adjustments based on customer need.

So in that situation you are asking for a more experienced, or more skillfully employee, and that costs more.

usualsuspect191 ,

I’d argue the skill difference matters much more in the kitchen, yet they only see a tiny percentage of the tips if they’re lucky

NoIWontPickaName ,

Ah see, to me their whole job is bringing me food, keeping my drink from being empty, and not being rude.

I don’t need all the pomp, I go to a restaurant for the food.

The funny part is you are effectively paying twice for that since the restaurant has increased the price of the food to account for all the pomp.

betheydocrime ,

I think you’re looking for the difference between fine dining and nouvelle cuisine / haute cuisine. Think of it like the difference between a nice steakhouse where the server essentially takes your order and gives you a plate, and one of those Instagram dinners where they serve your dessert in hollow chocolate balls and serving is a more involved and delicate process because of the nature of the food you’re serving

NoIWontPickaName ,

I have a place down the road that makes guacamole in a molcajete at the table.

That is way harder and more impressive than pouring a little hot chocolate.

If you can scam them into paying it then more power to you though.

betheydocrime ,

Sounds like that server deserves a generous tip, I hope you take good care of them :)

asteriskeverything ,

You’re not wrong, that’s the logic behind it. It’s not like you’re defending it so idk why you’re getting down voted! What you also didn’t mention is that at these restaurants is that it is a much more leisurely meal and experience, so there isn’t high table turnover which lessens the tips. I suspect they also have smaller sections.

dream_weasel ,

You’re the only one who gets it.

Everything is probably a la carte. You gotta know what is in every dish, what pairs with it from appetizers to sides to wine to dessert. You don’t walk out and ask “who had the cheeseburger?” because the expectation on the experience is higher. You’re controlling the timing at the table as well. When do you fire the main after they get the appetizer? Salad? Bread? Drinks? Which SIDE of the person do you give or remove plates? And yeah you gotta tip the bartender, the bussers, the expediters sometimes, and who knows who else.

It is still horseshit, but it’s not as easy as dropping a rib basket on the table.

Be mad about the tip line on the sandwich shop menu, be mad about 20% tip on the burger joint that has a modern industrial interior and a $22 burger, don’t be mad about paying out the Friday Saturday night white tablecloth servers with a tough fucking job of conducting your whole anniversary meal. You get to have a good experience once a year, they’ve got 15 other once a year meals to solve and it’s just a regular dinner shift.

pjwestin ,
@pjwestin@lemmy.world avatar

I’d say you also shouldn’t be made at the server at the $22 burger place, because they’re also working hard and probably covering more tables. I used to get mad about tipping for counter service because I assumed that they were making standard minimum wage, but then I found out one of my favorite cafes was paying $5 an hour (a dollar less than tipped minimum in my state). Point is, don’t get mad at anyone but the National Restaurant Association, they’re fighting to make sure you’re subsidizing your servers wage.

Imgonnatrythis ,

If you are are trying to find logic within tipping you might as well chase windmills. It’s dumb as bolts.

EdibleFriend ,
@EdibleFriend@lemmy.world avatar

Chasing a windmill would be really easy tho.

lobut ,

Just don’t get chasing waterfalls though.

EdibleFriend ,
@EdibleFriend@lemmy.world avatar

On the other hand rivers and lakes are so stupid.

Wogi ,

Because it’s a con, and if it were a flat rate, people would see it for the con it is. By making it a percentage of sales, you can delude people in to believing they’re going to make more in tips than they would on an hourly rate.

Sometimes that’s true, for the vast majority of servers it isn’t.

Rentlar ,

I see it as a sneaky incentive from management for waiters to upsell you on more sides, drinks and desserts.

Since the more marked up extras a waiter/waitress can fool people into getting, the better tip they can hope to earn at the end because of the %-based expectation.

Patches ,

deleted_by_author

    •
    Mirodir ,

    Not every meal in a “$x/plate” restaurant is gonna cost the same though. It’s not hard to reach a disparity between the cheapest and most expensive reasonable meal (similar sizes) of around a factor of 2 at many restaurants.

    Why is the server getting twice the tip if I order the most expensive plate and dessert vs cheapest plate and dessert?

    GBU_28 ,

    Each plate of food or drink is a transaction, each with expectations of quality, and expectations on the waiter to make it right.

    hark ,
    @hark@lemmy.world avatar

    Make what right? They’re just bringing it to my table. If the food or service sucks I’m also told that you should tip anyway, so it seems like tipping isn’t based on quality (and really, it isn’t).

    pjwestin ,
    @pjwestin@lemmy.world avatar

    $20 is like, one entree, maybe a beverage at a cheap restaurant. $200 is probably closer to 3 entrees, 2 or 3 cocktails and an app at a moderately priced restaurant. You’re crazy if you think the amount of work for those two orders (putting them into the bar/kitchen, making sure they come out correct, running them, all while juggling your other tables) is equal. I also want tipping culture to end, but the price tag scales pretty well with the amount of work being done.

    wer2 ,

    Waffle House: feed a family of 4 for $20 Tip: $4 “Fancy” Restaurant: microwaved appetizer $20 Tip: $5

    A percentage scales within an establishment, but not really across them.

    pjwestin ,
    @pjwestin@lemmy.world avatar

    I’d say that varies more regionally than anything else. I live in a major northeastern city, and you could barely feed 1 person for $20, even at cheap chain restaurants. Drive 2 hours away and things get a lot more affordable, not only for food prices but also rent. In that respect, 20% actually scales with cost of living as well.

    player2 ,

    It mostly bothers me when I just order 1 entree and a water. At one place that might cost $10, and at another place it might cost $30, and all the wait staff did was carry a plate from the kitchen to me in both cases.

    It doesn’t seem fair that the wait staff at the more expensive place gets tipped more than the less expensive place just because of an arbitrary custom.

    The extra cost of the expensive meal is mostly due to ingredients, the cooking process, the location, and maaay slightly more complicated table setting.

    pjwestin ,
    @pjwestin@lemmy.world avatar

    Yeah, I agree, but if you don’t like it, take it up with the National Restaurant Association. They spend millions every year lobbying against ending the tipped wage.

    auraness ,

    That’s insane. It’s literally the job. Imagine applying this logic to any service industry job.

    pjwestin ,
    @pjwestin@lemmy.world avatar

    Yeah, I know. As is said, I want tipping culture to end. We’ve created a system where the customer pays for servers salary by the job instead of the restaurant paying by the hour. I’m saying that running a $200 order is more work than running a $20 order, just like bagging $200 worth of groceries is more work than bagging $20 worth of groceries. A percentage tip does roughly reflect the amount of work being done, but acknowledging that isn’t an endorsement of tipping culture.

    TheLowestStone ,
    @TheLowestStone@lemmy.world avatar

    If you’re getting the same level of service at a restaurant serving $200/plate meals as you are at TGI Fridays, either you’re being ripped off of your local Fridays has amazing servers.

    Cexcells ,

    If I’m not longer working for a tip, and my wage is built in. Guess who no longer cares about you dining experience.

    Boop2133 ,

    Good thing you don’t know you’re not getting the tip until after I got my meal and service

    Cexcells ,

    The hypothetical here is that tipping isn’t a thing.

    Jennykichu , (edited )
    @Jennykichu@lemmy.dbzer0.com avatar

    It’s kind of true. If you’ve ever been to Europe, the service is good but not anywhere as attentive like in the states. The problem is not greedy waiters taking tips, it’s the CEOs who don’t pay their employees enough to dine out more than once a year.

    archomrade ,

    Idk what experiences you’ve had but i’ve had nothing but downright pleasant service in Europe.

    In my experience, if an american says they’re consistently getting bad service in europe it’s because they’re being inconsiderate or rude

    Jennykichu ,
    @Jennykichu@lemmy.dbzer0.com avatar

    Oh I didn’t mean to imply it was unpleasant, just certainly not as attentive, you’ll have to ask for refills on water or spend spend a long time waiting. Though that said in Tokyo the service was on par with New York and they don’t have tipping culture either.

    In Europe though, the waiters get healthcare and good wages so they have reason to be happy.

    archomrade ,

    Ah, well that makes sense.

    I’m partial to the laid back vibes myself, but I can understand it might not be the expectation for other people.

    bufalo1973 ,
    @bufalo1973@lemmy.ml avatar

    In some countries in Europe (Spain, Portugal, …) tips are just a bonus, not their wage. It’s a thank you but with money. So if you tip them you reinforce their good behavior.

    If the tip is mandatory it stops being a thank you and becomes charity.

    Jennykichu , (edited )
    @Jennykichu@lemmy.dbzer0.com avatar

    That’s not what charity means, they’re quite literally performing a service for that money.

    laurelraven ,

    It’s corporate charity since you’re paying the wages their employer should be paying

    mudstickmcgee ,

    “My boss pays me fairly so I’m going to suck ekstra at my job” what a great take

    SuddenlyMelissa ,

    Millions of people do good work on a flat wage. If you need to be bribed to care at all about people, get out of the service industry.

    Jennykichu ,
    @Jennykichu@lemmy.dbzer0.com avatar

    Imagine this guy at a strip club

    “You expect a bribe simply to view your buttocks madam? You are in the wrong line of work if you require money to perform your duties. No, I don’t use Reddit it’s called Lemmy actually why do you ask?”

    SuddenlyMelissa ,

    Imagine needing to go to a strip club to bribe women to see them naked.

    laurelraven ,

    Guess who’s also going to be out of a job

    ArcaneSlime ,

    This was downvoted by a lot of people who don’t understand the difference between fast food and a service restaurant or the reason service is so shitty at the former.

    Aggravationstation ,

    Here in the UK we don’t tip, people generally get fired if they don’t do their job well.

    Rooter ,

    “Other struggling people are not the enemy”.

    Op is jeff bezos alt account.

    atyaz ,

    Or even to use this same example, why not blame the restaurant owner? They can choose to pay their waiters well and tell customers there’s no need for tipping.

    Rediphile ,

    The idiot pro-tipping customers will still tip. They’ll try to sneak a tip and dumb shit like that. And I’m not about to blame a server for accepting free money.

    But what price is fair? How is the owner supposed to just guess that?

    I’d argue the wage that an employee voluntarily agrees to is about the fairest system possible: Make job posting, state the wage and job requirements, and people who find the wage fair then apply for it. I don’t see why this works fine in literally all other industries.

    atyaz ,

    There’s nothing wrong with tipping. It’s the required tipping that’s the problem. What’s fair is a fair salary. Waiters are paid like $2 an hour because the restaurant owners are allowed to take tips into consideration, which is what I’m arguing against.

    Rediphile ,

    Required tipping isn’t a thing. Tipping is, by definition, always optional.

    Jakeroxs ,

    Going to go ahead and guess you’ve never worked in a restaurant, because you don’t know what you’re talking about.

    Rediphile ,

    You guessed wrong. I have a strong opinion against tipping specifically because of working in restaurants including as a server.

    I did not like the inconsistent pay and would have preferred consistent pay. I’m sorry if that doesn’t align with your worldview.

    Jakeroxs ,

    So you’ve been a server and are aware of the uneven pay and the fact that if you don’t get good enough tips you’re making a starvation wage of minimum wage, and yet you still decide “fuck those people who are being exploited by restaurant owners because I don’t agree with tipping.” That’s heartless

    Rediphile ,

    Yes, because I’m against the inconsistent pay I experienced and want it to end so others do not experience the same.

    Heartless is continuing to encourage such a system.

    Jakeroxs ,

    You not tipping isn’t going to result in any fundamental change in the system, you’re just stiffing the people who are being exploited.

    Rediphile ,

    Me not tipping probably the most meaningfully personal action I can take to help to bring a change to the system, namely ending tipping.

    It’s certainly more effective than continued tipping is at trying to end tipping.

    Jakeroxs ,

    You could simply not eat at places that don’t pay their staff a living wage, because as it is, you’re still paying the company to continue their shitty practices.

    ShaggySnacks ,

    As a back of house worker, nothing was more disheartening then hearing all the servers go “I only made $200 in tips today in three hours” and being like “I only made $40 because I worked three hours.”

    Rediphile ,

    Yep, having worked both sides is probably part of why I see tipping as so silly.

    ECB ,

    Or they could have been kitchen-staff. They are one of the biggest victims of tipping culture.

    Essentially chefs are generally paid much, much less than wait-staff and it is very difficult to correct this balance. The reason is that in a normal business you would raise prices to afford to pay higher salaries, but since tips are percentage based this also raises the wages of wait-staff. This becomes a bigger and bigger issue the higher the tipping percentage goes. Restaurant margins tend to be razor thin as well, so raising prices would be the only way to raise kitchen-staff wages.

    It’s one reason why many restaurants are struggling to find kitchen-staff, because even highly trained chefs can make 2-3 times as much working front-of-house. There are quite a few restaurants which are trying to fix this by banning tips, but it’s difficult due to resistance from customers and wait-staff.

    Jakeroxs ,

    Chain restaurant margins are not razor thin, to give an example, Olive Garden spaghetti costs about 30 cents total per bowl and is sold for $10.

    I do not believe at all that the resistance is from customers or wait staff and everything to do with big restaurant chains refusing to pay a living wage, which also goes for kitchen staff who are also generally underpaid. Why pay your staff well if you can put the blame on the customers if they don’t tip?

    dangblingus ,

    This is the point that 50% of North Americans don’t understand. The restaurant owners have set the culture, and they exploit young people and customers alike. However, 50% of people think they’re entitled to eat out and therefore entitled to not tip, which only rewards the scummy restaurant owner for having exploitative business practices. Choosing to eat out and not tip makes tipping culture WORSE.

    Cringe2793 ,

    Well because the struggling people are blaming you when you don’t tip. They should blame the restaurant owner. But they blame the diner instead.

    That’s why people take servers/waiters as the “enemy”

    Rediphile ,

    I definitely don’t see servers who support tipping as ‘the enemy’, just idiots.

    I was literally a server for years too.

    recapitated , (edited )

    Doesn’t matter who gets blamed, if things were corrupt (correct) the customer would be paying the same amount as tipping that much. Tipping culture just gives the customer a chance to shirk.

    Cringe2793 ,

    Well if you are calling it “shirk” then it’s basically required. If it’s required why even give the illusion of a choice?

    recapitated ,

    That’s my point. Tipping culture is stupid.

    Consumers should pay the cost to consume, including materials, operations and staffing.

    It’s not an illusion of choice, it is a choice, and a choice that abuses workers and confuses customers.

    Cringe2793 ,

    The thing is the consumers are paying the cost. The business owners are just taking more of the profits. They just need to pay the workers more.

    And the “choice” you mention is a false one. People can’t really refuse to pay a tip, can they? They’ll get a lot of hostility from the staff (who have been brainwashed to think that it’s the customers’ responsibility). Notice that this isn’t really a thing outside the US.

    recapitated ,

    People can refuse to pay tips and some people don’t care about that hostility.

    Cringe2793 ,

    Most people care though.

    dangblingus ,

    How about we all agree that restaurant owners are the enemy? I don’t care that the 20 year old server working for the weekend doesn’t understand the nuance of the labor they engage in. They’re being exploited and you think that they’re the root cause of tipping culture, when in fact, it’s always been the restaurant owners.

    Cringe2793 ,

    I think you’re deliberately misinterpreting what I’m saying. I am saying they should blame the restaurant owner.

    But it certainly doesn’t help the situation when the server is blaming you and being hostile because you didn’t tip enough.

    hyperhopper ,

    Disagree. Most servers and bartenders are in favor of tipping culture and want it to stay this way with zero wages and societally enforced tips.

    Yes, the corporations are the enemy, but these other struggling people are on the side of the actual enemy.

    Jennykichu ,
    @Jennykichu@lemmy.dbzer0.com avatar

    Of course they’re in favor of it you idiot its how they make a reasonable living. The people choosing to go to a restaurant are not victims in this arrangement.

    If you can’t afford to dine out then maybe demand your boss pay you more. They’re the ones screwing you, not the waitress at Olive Garden.

    dangblingus ,

    Well sure, anyone would. If you give me $20 on a $100 bill, and you were in my section for an hour with 5-6 tables that all had similar bills and tipping percentage, I’d be ecstatic! That doesn’t mean it’s a good system for everyone. Hot girls make the most amount of tips while dudes serving break their back to make 15%. That hot 20 year old server that you had last time you went out to eat goes to Mexico once a month on her tips.

    hyperhopper ,

    Exactly, so the people in favor of keeping the fucked up system are part of the problem

    Maggoty ,

    If you can’t afford the bill then don’t eat there. That sucks to hear I know. However the only way we’re going to reign in costs is by sticking to what’s affordable. If restaurants can’t charge that price then food distributors have to lower prices too. We all benefit by sticking to affordability.

    If you’re worried about money you absolutely should open up the restaurant’s menu on their website or before you order and figure out what you can afford with a 20% surcharge. That said tipping was created by the industry to externalize costs and it needs to go die in a fire.

    Frozengyro ,

    I think the point isn’t about the bill but the expectation of massive tips. It’s too out of control to me, I used to tip 20% everywhere. Now I’ve gone back to 15% for regular service, and 20% if it’s really exceptional.

    dadarobot ,
    @dadarobot@lemmy.sdf.org avatar

    20% minimum unless the service is horrible. It’s not your fault the servers are paid BELOW minimum wage because the employer expects you to tip. But it nonetheless is the expectation and is the right thing to do. If you can’t afford to tip correctly you can’t afford to eat out.

    To be clear, i think we should get rid of tipping economy, but while it is the norm, you absolutely have to tip.

    can ,

    It’s not your fault the servers are paid BELOW minimum wage because the employer expects you to tip.

    That’s not the case in canada (obligatory excluding Québec) yet we still have the same tipping expectation.

    usualsuspect191 ,

    Yet one of the other awful cultural things getting exported from south of the border

    can ,

    The states’ #1 export

    hemko ,

    Tip is a extra for exceptional service, paid voluntarily on top of the base cost of the service.

    Sprawlie ,

    Sure, but on the flip side, I’m paying for the service already. It’s not on us to subsidize the cost.

    TIpping was meant and should only be done as a reward for job well done. Not a defacto standard expectation just because you did your job.

    That’s what your pay is.

    NOW, go fight for better wages. Unionize, promote higher minimum wages, be the change you want to see. But sitting here and bitching out customers because they don’t tip is a you problem.

    Maggoty ,

    It was popularized during world war 2 as an economic and pro business measure. That’s why we have the modern system.

    asteriskeverything ,

    Some states honor the state minimum wage which is higher than federal and the tips really are just extra. Just so you know, whatever it’s worth to you.

    Zibitee ,

    At what point did this minimum change from 10 to 15 to 18 and now 20? Restaurants increase the cost of food items and your tip is a proportion of that. Why would the cost of food increase AND the proportion of tip also increase? That’s double dipping and yeah, people should be pissed about it

    Maggoty ,

    Because in many restaurants tipping is covering more employees over the same period. Also, COL went up faster than meal price inflation.

    Zibitee ,

    What does covering more employees over the same period mean? I don’t follow. Also, you’re assuming that customers’ salaries increased with COL and inflation. They haven’t. These policies just squeeze value out of customers. Of course they’re offended

    Maggoty ,

    So tips used to just go to the worker who got them. But now they go to nearly everyone at the restaurant. Your server has to tip out quite a few other people.

    And yeah we know the rising prices are squeezing value of customers, but those prices are largely disconnected from the staff’s wages. Which is why the percentage has to go up.

    _tezz ,

    Is this not even worse double-dipping? Why would a server who makes $3/hr be expected to tip out the rest of the restaurant? That’s the point of being able to pay them $3/hr no?

    Wages being disconnected from company earnings is an even bigger reason for us to insist the percentage NOT go up…

    Maggoty ,

    Because the restaurant owner can enforce it legally and now they don’t have to pay the cooks/host/bartender as much anymore.

    Zibitee ,

    No, rising prices of menu items increases tips as a proportion. If menu prices stayed the same and you want larger tip %, then sure. But not both. That’s just greedy

    Maggoty ,

    Well Cost of living going up plus spreading that money out means they still needed the larger percentage.

    Zibitee ,

    That’s no excuse. Scummy practices are scummy

    agamemnonymous ,
    @agamemnonymous@sh.itjust.works avatar

    “20% minimum” is excessive, I say this as someone with years of serving experience.

    15% for competent but unremarkable service

    20% for remarkably good service, more for truly excellent service

    10% for remarkably bad service, less for truly horrible service

    Donebrach ,
    @Donebrach@lemmy.world avatar

    I question when your “years of serving experience” was rendered.

    littletranspunk ,

    I only disagree with the “unless” clause. If they’re underpaid and the restaurant is doing it because they won’t be at fault then you should tip that much anyway.

    At the least they will get more money and remember you as a temporary savior for better service next time. The unless clause basically just tells me “dance for your meal, peasant”

    michaelmrose ,

    In many places including Washington state servers are actually paid minimum wage of a bit over $16 an hour. We also have pervasive tip requests. I have gone to a restaurant where ordering and drinks was self serve, the employee makes you a hot sandwich which you take to go and the robot which takes your order requests a default 20% tip.

    Maggoty ,

    If that’s a tablet that comes with the software pre-installed they ask for tips by default because it makes more money for the software company.

    michaelmrose ,

    It’s highly unlikely that a POS terminal software directs tip money directly to the software company. Hopefully tips are shared by staff. Pessemistically they could be stolen by the company. In either case it doesn’t match the normal expectation of tipped service.

    Maggoty ,

    Those terminals take a percentage of everything that goes through them.

    michaelmrose ,

    They don’t collect tips for the terminal holder

    Maggoty ,

    They don’t differentiate. They take a percentage of the whole transaction. Thus it’s profitable for them to default to a tip screen.

    Voyajer ,
    @Voyajer@lemmy.world avatar

    Unless something changed recently, Square doesn’t enable tips by default. It didn’t the last time I set one up at least in the fall.

    Maggoty ,

    Maybe Square is the odd one out, but a quick trip around Google search says yes it’s generally the default. It can be turned off but why would a business owner do that?

    mayo ,
    @mayo@lemmy.world avatar

    The entitlement from servers is horrendous.

    10-15% and if you don’t like it you can have zero.

    Worth mentioning there is a big diff between USA and Canada. US is fucked and I have no comments about tipping there.

    Maggoty ,

    I’ve never had anyone say anything about a 15-20% tip.

    reversebananimals ,

    I don’t eat out at resturants ever - and guess what! When that happens, they bitch and moan about my not supporting local businesses, and steal millions in PPP loans!

    Bonskreeskreeskree ,

    You’ll hate to hear this, but restaurants struggling to fill positions and having to offer more benefits and pay to attract wait staff is the only way to end tipping culture. Tipping will never end itself.

    Maggoty ,

    We can also straight up ban it. But yeah I know businesses aren’t just going to willingly stop it.

    circuitfarmer , (edited )
    @circuitfarmer@lemmy.world avatar

    The whole damn system exists to place the burden of a living wage on the customer while the company paying peanuts can claim no wrongdoing. And the really sad part is: it has worked.

    Edit: and there are many, many businesses that wouldn’t be in business if they actually had to pay competitive wages on their own. The invisible hand can fix nothing if tipping culture says to throw more and more arbitrary amounts of money at people to subsidize their wages yourself. At some point (I’d argue we’re past it already), the band-aid needs to get ripped off. Only then will we see self-correction. The almost immediate loss of many businesses will likely trigger other actions. It’s already a no-win scenario.

    Shenanigore ,

    It’s on the customer either way

    circuitfarmer ,
    @circuitfarmer@lemmy.world avatar

    Yes, but one way is on the company first and one isn’t. Would prices go up if these places were paying living wages? Most likely. Many businesses would be insolvent because their business model was simply never designed to pay a living wage to employees. Others could remain solvent, but probably not if they continue to take so much off the top at higher positions.

    And that’s exactly it: the market never self-corrects if we throw arbitrary money in excess of listed prices to solve was is ultimately an issue of business solvency and ethics. There is no economic theory that would support such an idea in any industry, but here we are.

    The sheer number of businesses out of the space might even drive down rents. That’s the kind of thing I mean by “other actions”. But things cannot continue as they are.

    None of this is even to mention the sheer number of people in the service industry who are also on government assistance programs. They have to be – none of the blame is on them. But my tax dollars go to that, plus I am expected to pay extra to subsidize their wages with tips. I effectively subsidize them twice while someone reaps the rewards on their yacht. All I’m saying is the yacht people should be taking the risks first. That’s part of being a business owner.

    Shenanigore ,

    Dude, everyone understands the tipping system, the market isn’t gonna correct if it goes away because you’ll still be paying the exact same amount.

    circuitfarmer ,
    @circuitfarmer@lemmy.world avatar

    I’m not sure what isn’t getting across here.

    Customers subsidize wages with tipping. The amount is ultimately arbitrary and allows business owners to avoid costs.

    The actual cost of the wages is not arbitrary and should be put up by the business first.

    Shenanigore ,

    You’re wrong. Is that clear enough?

    circuitfarmer ,
    @circuitfarmer@lemmy.world avatar

    Great argument.

    Shenanigore ,

    Better than yours. The wordiness don’t make it true.

    circuitfarmer ,
    @circuitfarmer@lemmy.world avatar

    Show me on the doll where the free market hurt you.

    Shenanigore ,

    I think you’re confused, I’m not the one complaining.

    circuitfarmer ,
    @circuitfarmer@lemmy.world avatar

    Let’s see what Lemmy thinks.

    Shenanigore ,

    I don’t think a lot of Lemmy understands it doesn’t matter how you are subsidizing the wages, you’re doing it regardless. Like this clown who thinks food will be cheaper if more cash goes through the owner to the waiter instead of straight to the waiter. Regardless of system the customer is paying for everything, not the owner, unless of course his business is failing. Imagine the entitlement required to desire everyone change their model to make things cheaper for you, at a business that is completely a luxury. You could simply learn to cook instead of whining about tipping.

    circuitfarmer ,
    @circuitfarmer@lemmy.world avatar

    You could simply learn to cook instead of whining about tipping.

    Well I guess the whole restaurant industry doesn’t need to exist then.

    Reductio ad absurdum.

    Shenanigore ,

    I literally said it’s a (unnecessary) luxury so who is being absurd? You? Yes.

    Nath ,
    @Nath@aussie.zone avatar

    Dude, everyone understands the tipping system

    This is not true. I’ve visited the USA multiple times and I’ve gotten tipping wrong every time.

    the market isn’t gonna correct if it goes away because you’ll still be paying the exact same amount.

    This is also not really true. You look at a menu in Australia and the price you see is the exact amount you pay. $20 lunch is $20 on the bill. No added tips or taxes or anything.

    For the customer, this system is better.

    Saying that same lunch in the USA would ‘have been $14 on the menu in the USA’ would not match my experience. In fact, prices for most things were in the same rough ballpark once the exchange rate was factored in.

    Caveat: my last visit was 10 years ago. My experience may be out of date. 15% was considered a normal tip, then.

    Shenanigore ,

    I’m sorry you’re a moron, and I don’t take financial advice from people who can’t figure out something as simple as tipping protocol. And quit lying, food is definitely cheaper on average in the states, and greater quantity too.

    hark ,
    @hark@lemmy.world avatar

    The food is pumped with filler trash, so the quantity is definitely there, but the prices aren’t as cheap as you think, especially for what you’re getting.

    Shenanigore ,

    Are you a foreign to the USA trucker who spent a good portion of the last 7 years south of the border? No? I am, and know exactly what I’m talking about, intimately familiar with farm/ranch end prices and also wholesale prices as I now own a restaurant. I’m the rare person who’s worked at every end of the food industry and the middle too, as well as being a frequent customer in 22 states and 8 provinces. and very familiar with currency conversions from all the commodity rates, shipping and ordering. Meanwhile you are some fucking guy saying “nuh uh” who likely needs to go to wikipedia to try describe current American farm subsidy policy.

    MisterFrog ,
    @MisterFrog@lemmy.world avatar

    The difference is that on slow nights, staff get paid less, which is fucked up.

    The business needs to wear the cost, because they reap the rewards, which is the narrative capitalism supposedly is about.

    Tipping sucks, I’m glad we don’t have it in Australia.

    Shenanigore ,

    Oh look, an Aussie that needs you know that. Yes yes, everything is better there, it has to be, why else would y’all spend so much time trying to convince everyone of it.

    MisterFrog ,
    @MisterFrog@lemmy.world avatar

    Tipping does still suck though, and the way it is in many states of the US, slow business literally means employees get paid less, which is pretty fucked.

    Australia certainly isn’t perfect, and don’t let anyone tell you how great Medicare is here because it’s not what it uses to be and slowly but surely slipping into private health insurance hell due to its languishing, but heck, defensive much mate?

    I am glad that I don’t have to deal with tipping. Tipping is trash and seemingly many Americans agree it’s trash.

    Shenanigore ,

    Not defensive, I really don’t care for Australians, they’ve a way of conducting themselves that I find very fucking irritating. New Zealanders i can get along with.

    MisterFrog ,
    @MisterFrog@lemmy.world avatar

    I’m sorry for my place of birth, and I’m sorry for liking the fact I don’t have to tip because of my place of birth, I guess?

    This is just a strange internet interaction, but may I suggest not letting people you’re not a fan of them because of their nationality?

    Shenanigore ,

    Nah. Yall are cunts and I don’t like you.

    spujb ,

    another difference, like it or not, is that tipping allows for discrimination.

    Black service providers are tipped disproportionately less than white service providers.

    hglman ,

    Tipping is good bc you van pay the employee directly. What needs to change is that tips need to be mandatory and when tips fall short of a living wage the business must pay pay to make up.

    circuitfarmer ,
    @circuitfarmer@lemmy.world avatar

    What advantage does this hold versus the company paying a living wage in the first place?

    michaelmrose ,

    A business is free to offer mandatory tipping and they do have to make up the difference if its not the minimum wage. The minimum wage could be higher of course.

    LucasWaffyWaf ,

    What difference is there to you, then, between “employer pays a reasonable living wage to their employees but raises the prices of the food a bit to accommodate” and “employer pays poverty wages, forcing the customers to pay their employees for them and forcing tax payers to pay up when people earning poverty wages inevitably rely on government programs to simply survive?” If tipping is mandatory, the only people that benefit is the employer since they can simply double dip - spend less money on payroll AND force the customer to make up for your lack of willingness to pay competitive wages. Yes, under current law, employers are supposed to make the difference if tips can’t cover at least minimum wage, but that’s not enforced nearly as much as it should be, which puts the onus on the workers being exploited in the first place, and even then minimum wage in this country is embarrassingly unfit for supporting anybody.

    The more important question to ask is “why am I expected to pay an employee when the money I already give to a business should cover wages in the first place?”

    I’m a tipped employee for my day job. I make a decent base pay, but the tips make up for that in spades during busy seasons. I’ve bought my current car with tip money. Despite this, I fully support getting rid of tips if it meant my livelihood wouldn’t be a gamble depending on factors outside my control, and especially if it meant fewer people had to rely on government assistance and could better provide a livelihood for themselves.

    Woht24 ,

    Fucking retarded

    TokenBoomer ,

    I’m against insults, but you made me laugh. 🙏🏻

    Cannonhead2 ,

    I agree wholeheartedly! Let’s make tipping mandatory. In fact, let’s add it on to the price of your bill automatically. Better still, let’s just add it onto the menu price. Oh hey, we’ve come full circle.

    hglman ,

    No, it should be a direct payment to the staff.

    Voyajer ,
    @Voyajer@lemmy.world avatar

    Why? All that does is burden the employee by complicating reporting their income.

    dangblingus ,

    Or…and hear me out…RESTAURANTS SHOULDN’T BE ALLOWED TO PAY THEIR STAFF LESS THAN $3/HR!

    Cold_Brew_Enema ,

    Restaurants when they expect a 40% tip after you drive to the store for pickup

    dangblingus ,

    The debit machine is preprogrammed. Stop looking for problems where they don’t exist.

    hark ,
    @hark@lemmy.world avatar

    You can reprogram it to not do that.

    jj4211 ,

    A sandwich shop that is only every a pick up counter (not even seating if you wanted to) that has not only a point of sale equipment declaring expected tip (no, point of sale equipment doesn’t lock the operator into demand a tip mode, the operator chooses it), but also a tip jar.

    Even if, somehow, it were the case that operators were locked into nagging for tip for some bizarre reason, it would still be a problem.

    reversebananimals ,

    Who do you think programs it?

    Contend6248 ,

    Maybe one day we have the technology for a second button. You should’ve tipped the programmer

    Or should the customer get the tip for doing the work running around with an order? That’s a question for the future.

    Voyajer ,
    @Voyajer@lemmy.world avatar

    www.youtube.com/watch?v=uK98YADi7FU

    formergijoe ,

    Look at this guy, paying $70 at a restaurant. How many are you buying for? 5?

    pyrflie ,

    Probably 2, maybe one at a nicer restaurant. If you’re in California or DC it might be lunch.

    ogmios ,
    @ogmios@sh.itjust.works avatar

    Yea, buying a $70 meal then complaining about money being scarce is kinda… questionable.

    mars ,

    My bills for two people regularly come out to $50, at normal unfancy restaurants (sometimes even just fast casual). So $70 would be 3 people for me.

    Voyajer ,
    @Voyajer@lemmy.world avatar

    That’s a pretty normal 2 person meal nowadays, cheap if for 3. I’m not even in a high cost of living area.

    hex_m_hell ,

    If you can’t afford the tip, why are you paying $70 for a meal?

    RagingRobot ,

    Because that’s just how much it costs to go out to eat now. No one can afford it. Where have you been?

    hex_m_hell ,

    Again, if it’s too expensive to afford, why are you doing it? It’s not medical care. No one is forcing you to eat at a restaurant.

    RagingRobot ,

    I didn’t know eating was a luxury sorry

    hex_m_hell ,

    It’s not, but eating at a restaurant is.

    RagingRobot ,

    Not really. Not unless it’s a fancy restaurant. Sometimes you just need to eat when you aren’t home.

    hex_m_hell , (edited )

    It’s called “bringing food” or “going home.” It’s what people have done for thousands of years. Fuck, go buy some prepared food at a supermarket. This is not rocket science. I’ve never been forced to spend $70 on food while I was out. That’s not a thing.

    Edit: look, if your position is that everyone should be able to eat when they’re out and not have to plan as much then great, we’re on the same page. Everyone should be able to eat out occasionally, or maybe even regularly. If your position is that you should be able to eat an expense meal and not care about the people who served you, then fuck you.

    Edit: also, if you aren’t getting paid enough to pay service workers maybe you should go on strike.

    Nevoic ,

    Humans aren’t perfectly rational consumers, capable of always depriving themselves of joy in the name of fiscal responsibility.

    I imagine the crux of your argument rests on the idea that eating out for $70 or $90 are two identical things, when in fact they are not. If you do it 10 times a year, it’s a $200 difference.

    The reason that difference exists is to satisfy the desire the owning class has to not pay workers enough to survive. If they did, the capitalists would have less money, you would have more money, and the waiter would have the same amount of money.

    That’s better. Not perfectly ideal, but better than now.

    hex_m_hell ,

    I don’t expect people to be rational, I know they aren’t. The point is that it’s better to not eat out than to screw over a person who may not be able to afford to eat in the restaurant you’re eating in. You are asking someone to work for you for starvation wages and then complaining that they’re upset that you’re not filling in the rest of the wages.

    Yeah, the owning class is to blame, so stop giving the restaurant money.

    Nevoic ,

    I always tip when I eat out because I agree, and this post is mistakenly directing the anger at the waiters, but tipping culture is a problem that properly developed countries don’t have to deal with.

    Also, the owners do have to cover the difference to minimum wage if tips don’t get you there. Minimum wage is generally too low to live off of, but some workers get paid that anyway. If you live somewhere with a $15 an hour minimum wage, and that actually aligns with COL, then tipping culture disappearing wouldn’t be terrible.

    PeroBasta ,

    So let’s say you go buy a car, do you leave a coupple thousands more for good measure?

    hex_m_hell ,

    Car sales people are paid on commission. If servers were paid on commission then your argument would make sense. If car sales peole were paid less than minimum wage, your argument might make sense. Neither of these is the case, so it doesn’t.

    PeroBasta ,

    Tipping then should be a fix amount. Is not like if i pay 15$ for a pasta or 50$ for a stake there is a differenze in service.

    Once it’s a fix amount, they could… Drumrolls… Include it in the menu prices!

    Anyway i know is not your fault and it’s the american system that is cheating but you can vote with your wallet

    hex_m_hell ,

    Tipping shouldn’t exist because people should be paid a living wage.

    PeroBasta ,

    Exactly what I wrote. Include it in the menu price so that they can “afford” to pay their staff

    Rediphile ,

    Agreed, which is why I’m against tipping. I refuse to support people getting paid an unfair wage.

    Voyajer , (edited )
    @Voyajer@lemmy.world avatar

    So his argument makes sense. E: lol

    betheydocrime ,

    Tipping service workers is one of the very few times in our life when we can say “The people directly serving me deserve to get paid more, and while I can’t raise their wage, I can at least make sure they’re getting paid well while they serve me” and the fact that people are upset about that and actively refuse to tip is just crazy to me.

    Like, there is no ethical consumption under capitalism, but tipping generously is one of the times when we can come pretty close! Maybe instead of having a $70 meal on the brink of a recession, have a $50 meal and tip up to the $70 that’s in your budget?

    normanwall ,

    And just think, they could all get paid properly if the restaurants just included those tips in the prices instead of playing this stupid fucking tipping game

    SpaceNoodle ,

    Yes, that would be ideal. Since that’s not currently the case at all establishments, we can take other steps.

    betheydocrime ,

    Yep! The people directly serving us deserve to get paid more, and while we can’t raise their wage, we can at least make sure they’re getting paid well while they serve us.

    SpaceNoodle ,

    It’s sad how much flak you’re getting for this reasonable take. I’m lucky enough to be able to afford eating out a couple times a week, and I’m not scared of sharing a bit of my wealth with the neighborhood.

    betheydocrime ,

    Right!? If you’re lucky enough to be financially secure right now, tipping can even be seen as a form of mutual aid!

    Serinus ,

    It’s the last bit. His first paragraph is a good outlook. Encouraging everyone to tip 25-50% is insane and stupid.

    People tend to vote based on the worst part of a comment.

    betheydocrime ,

    Please don’t put words in my mouth. When did I ever say 50%? Someone else botched their math and got to that number, and I even took the time to explain why their math was wrong. I have only told others to “tip generously”, to always include a tip in their budget while dining out, and in your specific case to tip more than 15%. Even in the offhand example I gave that you think is so insane and stupid, it only comes out to a 33% tip. The people who do the lion’s share of the actual labor deserve the lion’s share of the profits, and there’s nothing insane or stupid about that.

    NoIWontPickaName ,

    Are you tipping 50%?

    betheydocrime ,

    I aim for 25-30% tip when I get standard service and when there aren’t any comped apps/drinks/desserts. If the server is amazing or if they’re giving us free stuff, I give more. 50% is very rare for me to hit, but I did leave 50% at a family dinner a few weeks ago.

    Why did you ask about 50% specifically?

    NoIWontPickaName ,

    Your example is a $20 tip on a $50 bill.

    $70 meal to $50 meal is a $20 difference and you said to use the difference.

    I guess 40% is the actual number but it was close enough for a random internet discussion. Lol

    betheydocrime ,

    A $50 meal has sales tax, as well. Tipping up to $70 means the server gets $15-16-- which is a 33% tip.

    NoIWontPickaName ,

    You are changing from a $70 meal and a $50 meal to a $50 meal rounding up to $70.

    There is sales tax on the $70 meal at the same percentage.

    betheydocrime ,

    I’m not sure I understand what you’re saying

    NoIWontPickaName ,

    You forgot that tax would be included at the same rate on a $70 meal as a $50.

    You can’t use tax as an excuse on the 50 since the 70 would have it too.

    betheydocrime ,

    I guess I don’t understand you because I don’t understand how your point is relevant. I didn’t forget tax because tax isn’t relevant to the original image. It only brings up a 25% tip on a total of $70, and “tipping up” to a total sum is never discussed.

    On the other hand, my proposed solution involves “tipping up” to a sum, which means tax must be considered if you’re going to take the time to calculate the exact tip percentage.

    And also, “an excuse”? I’m sorry to ask so bluntly, but that word choice makes me wonder: do you view this conversation as a competition?

    Serinus ,

    Yeah, either that’s pretty dumb or you’re pretty wealthy.

    A standard tip is 15%. Up to 20% is reasonable. Anything more is generosity, and should never be expected.

    The thing about inflation is that 15% of a larger number is a larger number. Inflation is built in, and you don’t need to add it twice.

    Not everybody can be remembered as the guy who gives good tips. That’s not how it works.

    betheydocrime ,

    I make $1 above minimum wage in Los Angeles, so I’m wealthy in a global sense but poor in a local sense. I just live a frugal life with few expenses or vices beyond gaming and smoking, and that’s what enables me to tip generously and give to mutual aid groups. I probably eat out less often than the average American, and I don’t own a car, but I’m OK with losing those things. I am able and willing to make those sacrifices, so I do so. If you’re not able or not willing to make those sacrifices, that’s your choice, but don’t take the consequences of your choice out on the people who are on the bottom rung of society. That’s just gross.

    Serinus ,

    Tipping 15% isn’t “taking your choice out” on anyone. 15% is a fine and normal tip.

    betheydocrime ,

    Maybe it used to be decades ago when we first formed our opinions about this stuff, but times have changed since then. Rent has done nothing but go up, while the federal minimum wage has been $7.25/hour since 2009 and the federal tipped minimum wage has been $2.13/hour since 1991. That 15% you gave in 2010 was used for cigarettes and drinks after work, maybe coffee the next morning, maybe putting a little bit into savings or paying for college. Today, that 15% is used for rent. Rent and gas. Rent and gas and maybe childcare. Tipping more than 15% is our way to actually tell someone that they deserve more than just the necessities–and I don’t mean telling them with words or with comments on Lemmy, I mean telling them with action.

    Rediphile ,

    I can’t bring my self to encourage people to work stupid fucking jobs that pay $2.13 or whatever. Have some fucking self respect.

    betheydocrime ,

    Whether you respect them or not, those jobs still must exist until they are automated away. Casual dining and fine dining restaurants can’t operate without servers–if that was possible, The Invisible Hand Of The Free Market would have eliminated that position centuries ago.

    Rediphile ,

    I’m saying they need to have some respect for themselves and refuse bullshit ass pay like that. And the vast majority of civilized nations have servers just fine without tipping/bull shit poverty wages. Service is better too.

    betheydocrime ,

    I understand what you’re saying, and what you’re saying is only concerned with individuals, not systems.

    What I’m saying is that regardless of how many individual people turn that job down, the job listing at that wage will still exist. Eventually, someone who is down on their luck will become desperate enough to take it because they don’t have any other options left.

    They could be homeless people trying to afford the deposit on an apartment, or single dads trying to pay for field trips for their kids, or ex-cons locked out of conventional employment trying desperately to earn an honest living, or college students trying to buy one used textbook, or even uneducated twenty-somethings trying to build work history so they can stop working for tips.

    All of those desperate people, the people who have no choice but to tolerate the wage that you have too much self-respect to accept–they deserve nice things too. Their boss is a greedy, insufferable bastard who is willing to pay them the minimum that he is legally required to. If he could pay his employees less, he would do it in a heartbeat. By refusing to tip, you are climbing in to the same boat he’s in, no matter what ideology you shout as you clamber over the gunwales.

    Rediphile ,

    Again, the vast majority of places don’t have this issue of tipping at all.

    Capitalism brutally forcing people into work they would otherwise not choose sadly happens almost everywhere, but tipping does not.

    betheydocrime ,

    If all you’re going to do is repeat ideologies while ignoring material conditions, then that’s your call, but I’m done spending my time with you if that’s your choice.

    fathog ,

    Bro is an idiot without an ounce of empathy who has clearly never had to work a service job a day in their lives. I’m with you ms docrime

    Rediphile ,

    I’m against tipping specifically because of having worked in food service jobs. I’m sorry if that doesn’t fit your narrative. And neither of you have meaningfully responded to why the rest of the world manages fine without tipping, which really says it all.

    fathog ,

    If you’re going out to eat and not tipping, I truly don’t believe you have worked at a food service job. Full stop.

    Tipping is a construct of capitalism that allows owners to shunt the burden of paying their workers to the customer. Yes, it’s fucked. This does not change the fact that if a server waits on your bum ass for an hour, and you don’t tip, they probably made about $3 while serving you. It’s basic human respect to compensate someone for that - and while it’s fucked that the burden falls on you, that’s the name of the game in America.

    Don’t go out to eat if you don’t want to tip.

    Rediphile ,

    While serving, I highly disliked the wildly inconsistent pay I received due to the tipping system. It makes paying rent on time hard. It’s honestly a really shitty way to live, which if you worked as server you would also know. Yeah getting $100 tip randomly is a cool surprise, no disagreements there … But it can’t be relied upon.

    Also, still no comment on how the rest of the civilized world does just fine without tipping?

    And lastly, no thank you. I’m going to continue to go out and not tip. Not only that, I’m going to continue to encourage others to do the same.

    It’s working. Growing numbers if both servers and customers are becoming more and more sick of this bullshit and the tide is shifting.

    fathog ,

    Bro you’re straight up just lying. It’s so clear that you have no idea what being a server is like, because believe it or not, you do actually make pretty decent money (a hell of a lot more than working the check stand at a grocery store). This is part of the discussion that is actually worth having, because similar to nurses who don’t want universal health care, there are a lot of people in the service industry who like the tipping system.

    Sure, here’s how “the rest of the civilized world works”: people pay their fucking employees. America is broken.

    Your limp dick protest does nothing except hurt employees. The owners still make the exact same amount from you, and the lower class gets fucked.

    Since you seem to have reading comprehension issues, let me make this clear:

    • I do not support tipping
    • Not tipping is taking it out on the person who’s vulnerable
    • Therefore, if I don’t feel like tipping, I do not go out

    It’s not working, the wage divide is getting larger, and you’re a heartless idiot who very likely is eating a lot of spit. Because, as you should know since you “worked service”, people talk and know if a customer is going to stiff them.

    Rediphile ,

    I didn’t ignore the material conditions you stated, I actually reaffirmed them.

    You however did ignore my point about the rest of the world who manages without tipping.

    Sprawlie ,

    This is ridiculous amount to tip. Good on you for being frivolous and not caring how much you spend, but understand that by your further escalation of tipping you are directly contributing to the businesses that are getting away with it.

    Not 10 years ago, expected tipping was 10-15%. Now you’re throwing 25-30? Or 50? you realize how unstable, unrealistic and how bad a precedent that is setting?

    betheydocrime ,

    It’s not a ridiculous amount to tip, but explaining why it’s reasonable requires an understanding of what commodity fetishism is. Are you already familiar with the term? If not, would you be willing to read a description of what it is if I typed one up for you?

    Rediphile ,

    No fucking way someone with an understanding of Marxist sociology supports tipping. Not a fucking chance. I’m so confused right now.

    betheydocrime ,

    Socialist theory is great, but material conditions don’t care about our ideologies :) I use Marxism and socialism to help myself understand why I feel so alienated and to help fight those feelings, but I still understand that every worker in America lives as an exploited laborer under capitalism. I’m not wealthy or politically powerful or willing to use violence to enforce my views, so my praxis must be aimed at helping the little people until we have enough of a leftist coalition to take on the bigger issues.

    Essentially, I’m not big enough to change the world for the better all on my own, but I can change the parts of it that I can reach out and touch with my hands, so why shouldn’t I?

    Rediphile ,

    You should, by not tipping, which will help create positive social change.

    betheydocrime ,

    [email protected] typed up the perfect response to this in another thread, let me copypasta their comment for you:

    you are proposing that if we all stop tipping, companies will be motivated to pay their workers; you are correct, this is what would happen if we all stopped tipping at the same time.

    this process is known as collective action. it is incredibly important to remember that collective action only works when it actually happens. in other words, your individual action of not tipping your waiter is ONLY beneficial to your waiter if you can make sure one else tips either.

    do you have this power? (i think you don’t; if you do i beg of you to exercise it lol.)

    now consider who actually holds the power here. at any point, your restaurant’s owner could institute a no-tip policy, thereby ensuring that no one has to tip, ever. several restaurants already have done this, and it works. now, you might (correctly) note that this may gives an unfair advantage to other competing restaurants who do not implement no-tip policy. this is where local and regional policy can come in to help coordinate transitioning to a more helpful model of compensating employees.

    so there’s kind of this imbalance, where yeah technically it’s possible for us as eaters of food to “fix” the tipping problem, but its way way easier for the people in charge (whether that’s government or owners) to fix it, because they have the power of coordination on their side.

    tldr, tip your waiters and advocate for anti-tipping policies if you want to maximize long term benefits for everyone.

    Rediphile ,

    Yeah, guess people shouldn’t vote in elections either since their vote doesn’t single handedly settle the election. What an absurdly stupid position to hide behind.

    Relying on restaurant owners to ‘do the right thing’ without any incentive to do so is extremely naive. And they just, don’t. Look around. They could but they don’t.

    betheydocrime ,

    this is where local and regional policy can come in to help coordinate transitioning to a more helpful model of compensating employees.

    The answer to your criticism is in the very next sentence of the paragraph that you object to.

    Rediphile ,

    I said owners, but should have been more clear and stated both owners and politicians are not taking action. I don’t expect them to anytime soon without incentives.

    31337 ,

    It just incentivizes being an asshole. Assholes give zero tips and get to keep more of their money, while normal people have to pay the empathy tax.

    speaker_hat ,

    25% is INSANE, even not during recession.

    It’s literally 1/4 of the meal.

    INSANE.

    Pyr_Pressure ,

    I always found percentage to be a bit stupid as a measure. If I’m eating by myself max I will tip is 10%. All they did was walk out a plate of food and refill the water a handful of times

    2 people then 15%

    If there’s like 8 people then maybe 15% + 1% per person.

    For decent service you would expect from competent staff that is, if it’s excellent than a bit more and terrible a bit less.

    newjunkcity ,

    Genuine question: how does that work though?

    • If I consume $30 worth, and tip 10%, waiter gets $3.
    • If there’s two of us, and we consume $60, the waiter probably does 60% extra work for 100% extra tip at 10% of the total bill ($6)

    I would have thought (but perhaps I’m wrong) that the waiter does less work per person as the number of people at a table increases, so why would the percentage tip go up?

    And as far as the bill goes, if there’s only me, I’ll likely stick to soft drinks. Whereas when there are more people in my group, I’d be much more likely to grab a bottle of wine to share, pushing the total bill per person up, and thus the tip.

    Pyr_Pressure ,

    I just find with two or more people there’s more to keep in mind for orders and stuff and remembering what kind of drinks someone has for topping up or refilling, plus the cooks (should) get a portion of the tip so they’ll be cooking twice as much food at the same time which is a little more difficult. In general it’s a little more work to serve more people because of time constraints and number of things to remember.

    You can have 12 single people at 12 different tables and it would be a lot easier than 24 people paired up at 12 tables.

    JackbyDev ,

    I’ve literally never seen a waiter get angry about not leaving a 25% tip. Can we please avoid manufactured outrage?

    jmankman ,

    What is a meme anyway

    KevonLooney ,

    Something that would sound dumb written out as a comment?

    Randomgal ,

    You think someone on here would lie or exaggerate for clicks?

    scoobford ,

    We definitely get a little peeved if it’s under 15, but frankly those people aren’t worth getting mad at. Someone else always comes by and makes up for it anyways

    Plus, it’s unprofessional, awkward, and generally pointless to actually say something about it.

    partner0709 ,

    BonesOfTheMoon ,

    Every time we go to Toronto we go to the same restaurant because they don’t accept tips, they just pay their staff really well. Fantastic restaurant and I love supporting them.

    GreatAlbatross ,
    @GreatAlbatross@feddit.uk avatar

    What’s the restaurant called? The tipping in CA drives me nuts, it would be nice to have a simple option in Toronto to go for!

    BonesOfTheMoon ,

    Richmond Station. It’s SO good. The food is amazing.

    dangblingus ,

    That’s how it should be. Tips supplement incomes so restaurant owners can pocket the profits that would have gone to paying their staff better. If all restaurants moved to this model, everyone would be a lot happier.

    BonesOfTheMoon ,

    And it’s such a great restaurant and makes you feel like you’re helping hospitality be a great industry.

    Jennykichu ,
    @Jennykichu@lemmy.dbzer0.com avatar

    Tips supplement incomes so restaurant owners can pocket the profits that would have gone to paying their staff better.

    I hate to defend small restaurant owners because so many of them are complete assholes but they are not exactly Scrooge McDucks dealing with Elon Musk levels of money. Elon Musk could cover the tips of everyone in America.

    eestileib ,

    I was going to say, most of what restaurant owners do is go broke. It’s a brutal industry.

    s_s , (edited )

    Most restaurants are chains and owned by a small handful of corporations and mega-franchisees. Their shareholders make a lot of money.

    Most small businesses (restaurants or otherwise) go broke because they are undercapitalized or otherwise mismanaged.

    It takes money to make money.

    And If you want to make the jump from wage earner to small business owner, making higher wages helps a lot.

    Higher wages means the next generation of small businesses are more successful. More successful small businesses create more competition and keep prices lower for consumers.

    GiddyGap ,

    Welcome to nearly every restaurant in Europe.

    EnderMB ,

    Are you from Europe? This absolutely isn’t the UK, nor is it many of the countries I’ve visited here…

    GiddyGap ,

    I’ve lived for decades in several European countries, but not the UK. I’ve never paid a tip or been asked to pay a tip or felt like I had to pay a tip.

    May be different in the UK.

    EnderMB ,

    Tipping has been implied pretty much anywhere I’ve eaten in France, the Netherlands, Germany, Spain, and Greece.

    GiddyGap ,

    I’ve never once experienced that in any of those countries.

    EnderMB ,

    I was literally in Bergerac a few weeks ago, and a tip of 5-15% was expected practically anywhere I ate - and that’s not exactly a bustling metropolis…

    I worry that Lemmy fetishises Europe a bit too much as some bastion of freedom, great pay, or amazing rights.

    GiddyGap ,

    Well, compared to the US, Europe indeed is a bastion of freedom, great pay, amazing rights, and no least, sanity. I’ve lived for many years in both.

    I’ve also never experienced tipping in Europe. You have. I guess we’ve had different experiences.

    ECB ,

    Are you English speaking by any chance? In Germany I often notice that the waiters act totally differently whenever my American parents are visiting than when I’m just out with friends and speaking German.

    With Germans they just show up with the card reader and we pay one by one; often people will ask to round up their bill to the nearest Euro but it’s not expected.

    With my parents (or other Americans that have visited me) they often act like American waiters and bring the bill and then kind of hover next to us and wait for us to initiate what we want to do next. I think they’ve learned that most Americans will assume ‘this is the part where we work out how much tip to give’ and the waiters often end up with a (for German standards) gigantic tip. At least this always works with my parents since ‘we feel bad not tipping!’

    VaultBoyNewVegas ,

    Tipping is totally optional in the UK in my experience. Cafes have a tip jar but it’s up to the customer whether they leave one or not. Same with bars/pubs.

    EnderMB ,

    Well sure, no one tips in cafes or pubs, but it’s definitely expected in restaurants. Hell, we had the tip machines for contactless payment before the yanks did…

    ggBarabajagal ,

    Tipping is more than just a custom; there really is a culture to it. If you’re tipping only because you know the server makes less than minimum wage from the restaurant (or that greedy restaurant owners are completely to blame for this injustice), I think you may be misunderstanding an aspect of this culture.

    Working in a restaurant is as hard a retail job as there is, and working as a server is often the hardest job in the restaurant. Being a truly good server requires a rare mix of people skills, math skills, memory, and a thick skin. So why do people choose to take the hardest job there is in the whole restaurant, when it pays less than all the other jobs?

    Most servers end up getting paid better than the people doing other jobs in the restaurant. In most restaurants, servers make more than minimum wage. At the end of their shifts, most servers in turn tip-out the front-of-the-house employees, such as hosts and bussers, who often do only make minimum wage.

    A truly excellent server may be the highest-paid employee for an entire shift – that certainly includes the manager and anyone else on salary, and it may even include the owner, when you add in labor and upkeep costs.

    In order to make all that money, however, this server has to work at all the times that everyone else is out having fun – Friday night, Saturday night, Sunday morning. This server must put up with drunks, picky eaters and other narcissists, as well as seating errors and kitchen mistakes, all with a smile, for six or eight or ten hours straight. This server, who earns more than anyone else on the shift, is working harder than anyone else on the shift.

    This is the other aspect that I wanted to address. Tipping culture is what gives that excellent server the opportunity to earn a better wage, more appropriate to the effort and expertise they devote to the job.

    I’m sure this all sounds very capitalist, because it is. This may not be the most capitalism-friendly forum, I know, but I’m not trying to make any larger argument here.

    I’m just saying that to me, it seems like this should be a “don’t hate the players” (owners, managers, servers, rich/drunk people who like to leave big tips) “hate the game” (tipping culture). And even if you do hate tipping culture, it couldn’t hurt to consider how it works for the people who don’t hate it.

    veni_vedi_veni , (edited )

    First, good servers are far and few between and yet the expectation is always there (even in Canada for some bizarre reason). And people’s definition of good is also different. I don’t care about service with a smile, or being periodically asked if the food is good. That’s actually annoying to me. Just get my order right and get my bill within a reasonable time. Even if you are juggling 3-5 different tables, you have a notepad for a reason. That’s not worth much to me, especially since those are requirements of many other min wage jobs (ffs EMT personnel salaries are not paid much more than min wage, you see them asking for tips?).

    Second, tipping culture goes easy beyond dining in. They ask for it whenever you pay, even takeout. That’s just rude imo.

    Third, anecdotally, service quality is not correlated with tipping. The best servers I’ve experienced have been going to Japan where they don’t do tips.

    And it may seem that this is punching down, but it is not because conceptually tipping is a mechanism to justify suppressing wages/value of labor by businesses. Instead, “hating The game” should be about raising min wage as a whole so businesses pay more, and if that means goods cost more, at least the consumers are more informed that way.

    dangblingus ,

    We had “server wages” in Canada up until very recently, hence why tipping culture exists here too.

    ggBarabajagal ,

    “People’s definition of good is also different.” That’s exactly what makes working as a server a difficult job.

    Take you, for example. It sounds like you don’t like to be bothered when you’re dining out. An excellent server might be likely to recognize that and leave you alone after the first or second visit – as well as get your order right and bring your bill promptly. Even if not, there’s nothing wrong with politely asking to be left alone, but you can’t expect your server to read your mind. Some people do like to be bothered. Some people value the experience of being served while dining out to be as important as the food or the ambience. People have different definitions of good.

    In your “first” part, I hear you talking about resentment toward feeling obliged to tip servers when they give poor service. I understand and agree, to an extent. Paying servers minimum wage (or more) would not necessarily improve the service, however, and could possibly allow it to become worse. The amount you leave as a tip – if anything at all – is still completely up to you. That’s a big part of tipping culture as well.

    As for your “second,” and your “third,” I’m talking about tipping culture at sit-down restaurants in the United States.

    Because you are able to conceptualize tipping as a “a mechanism to justify suppressing wages” does not mean that’s the only way to conceptualize it. Do you really believe that raising server pay to minimum wage (or more) would end tipping culture in the U.S.? I do not believe that at all. Because there really is a culture to it, even it is merely a custom to folks like you.

    We can stop its spread – we can refuse to tip at places that never expected a tip before. But tipping at fancy sit-down restaurants is ingrained in American culture. It would take generations of social engineering to breed it out. There are people who like to be able to tip for good service, wealthy American people who will seek it out. Even if it became the norm not to tip at restaurants, I bet tipping would been seen as a status symbol at the fancier ones.

    And what about the “excellent server” I talked about earlier, who makes more money in tips than anyone else on the shift? To you, maybe that person is akin to some sort of prostitute, to be asking for extra money in exchange for personal consideration, when already making almost as much as “ffs EMT personnel”? Seriously though, no matter how much you raise that server’s wage, they’re still not going to be making anywhere near as much as they did working those big-money shifts for big tips. All else being even, they’re not going to choose to work those crappy hours anymore either, so the restaurant no longer has its best staff working its most demanding shifts.

    Anyway, it didn’t really seem like you were punching down. It did sort of seem like you failed to address some of the points I tried to make about tipping culture in the US, and instead provided information about your personal preferences and bad experiences dining out at full-service restaurants. That, and pushing the single-problem-single-solution minimum-wage idea, again without really addressing any of the possible collateral consequences I tried to suggest in the original post.

    thisisnotgoingwell ,

    Tipping is never going to go away, but I’d sure like it if they stopped promoting it on the POS.

    Knock_Knock_Lemmy_In ,

    In order to make all that money, however, this server has to work at all the times that everyone else is out having fun – Friday night, Saturday night, Sunday morning.

    Only tip at weekends. Gotcha.

    ferralcat ,

    I worked at a restaurant as a kid washing dishes and servers did fuck all, made bank, and complained about how it wasn’t enough. I lost all respect for waiters at that job (but I saw the same behaviors repeated too later in life. In the bay you’d notice that as soon as you didn’t order an overpriced cocktail with dinner, your waiter would peg you as a low spender and basically just never come back unless you flagged them down).

    Cooks… Good cooks are nuts to me. They’ll be cooking 10 different things simultaneously with timers running in their heads. I had no idea how they managed it.

    Smoogs , (edited )

    I worked in this culture. It’s very toxic. Stop trying to romanticize it. The movie ‘waiting’ was super on point on how it actually is.

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