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International Chess Federation (FIDE) to ban and punish transgender players

With these new rules, FIDE has managed to

  1. Imply the mental inferiority of women
  2. Validate the existence of transgender men
  3. Destroy the integrity of awards record-keeping
  4. Call transgender women men

Very nice, FIDE, incredible mental gymnastics performance! 👏 Add them to the ever lengthening sports federation shitlist.

TheWurstman ,
@TheWurstman@hexbear.net avatar

lol why? Why is fucking chess transphobic that’s the dumbest thing ever

TheAnonymouseJoker ,
@TheAnonymouseJoker@lemmy.ml avatar

Bans Russians, now bans transgender people. Gee I wonder why NATO controlled entities are always evil


iridaniotter OP ,
@iridaniotter@lemmygrad.ml avatar

The president of FIDE was a former Deputy Prime Minister of Russia. NATO has a lot of power, but to say they control FIDE is ridiculous.

TheAnonymouseJoker ,
@TheAnonymouseJoker@lemmy.ml avatar

How did Russian players get banned after the Ukraine conflict started, then? NATO has exactly that much power. FIDE is a NATO puppet effectively and is an invalid global sports organisation.

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s20 ,

I like how this manages to be both transphobic and like insanely sexist. Way to go, FIDE! Can you guys work homophobia or racism in there for a hat trick?

Squirrel ,
@Squirrel@thelemmy.club avatar

What the hell? There is no possible (meaningful) reason for this


randon31415 ,

There are too many women in chess after the popularity of the queen gambit, said FIDE. What can we do or say to get them go away?

Really, what is the nationality of the FIDE leadership? Are they Russia? I remember a lot of famous Russians playing.

First ,

Yes the current leader is a generic russian politician/stooge, but the previous leader was a real firecracker! He claimed to have been abducted by aliens and to have visited their planet en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kirsan_Ilyumzhinov

TheAnonymouseJoker ,
@TheAnonymouseJoker@lemmy.ml avatar

FIDE banned Russians though

Kolanaki ,
@Kolanaki@yiffit.net avatar

This shit doesn’t even make sense. It’s God damn chess! Men and women don’t have different minds. You might have a case with physical sports, maybe (IDK anymore; used to think women were not able to be as physical strong as men due to physiology, but even that seems like it is inaccurate with new studies), but there is no such case to be made with a mind. Human brains are human brains. The body they are encased in doesn’t change them fundamentally.

nomadjoanne ,

I’m pretty sure it’s just that greater male variability In most traits means that extreme upper echelon of men are better than the extreme upper echelon of women.

zik , (edited )

Men and women don’t have different minds.

Chess stats don’t agree with you on that. Men have a greater spread of chess ability than women. ie. the bottom end of men are significantly worse than the bottom end of women but also the top skilled men are better than the top women.

Kolanaki ,
@Kolanaki@yiffit.net avatar

Maybe if they played together instead of separately things would change, considering how it is played and what the logic employed entails. You might not know how to deal with en passant if you’ve never seen it used.

Harrison ,

The measured pool is chess players, not random people they picked off the street.

zik ,

The standard chess competition is “open” so they do play together.

Lyrl ,

Girls are made to feel unwelcome in chess environments at a very young age. Of course once many drop out because of cultural pressure, the remaining small sample size will have less spread than the larger population of men who have been made welcome in chess environments their whole lives.

Chriskmee ,

You might have a case with physical sports, maybe (IDK anymore; used to think women were not able to be as physical strong as men due to physiology, but even that seems like it is inaccurate with new studies),

I feel like the fact that the top leagues in most sports are open to both genders but it’s basically unheard of for females to be even close to be good enough to join, proves there is a massive difference at those levels.

For example women can play in the NBA, some have tried, only one or two got close, but none have played a game.

What research are you referring to that says there is no advantage?

TeoTwawki ,
@TeoTwawki@lemmy.world avatar

Someone tell me why there is even a “womens chess” for them to insanely bar trans people from, gender doesn’t affect chess in the 1st place.

Dubious_Fart ,

I’m waiting to hear a reason that doesnt go back to some tired stereotype in the lines of “Men are smarter than women, so its not fair”.

mind ,

deleted_by_author

    •
    devils_advocate ,

    Maybe the amazing women chess players just have better things to do

    en.chessbase.com/post/what-gender-gap-in-chess

    aceshigh ,
    @aceshigh@lemmy.world avatar

    That was interesting. Thanks for posting.

    kabat ,

    In case you don’t know - there are two categories: open and women-only. Anyone can compete in open, no matter what their gender/sex is. Women can also compete against other women only if they want. It’s definitely not like “oh you’re a woman, you can’t compete here, it’s only for men”.

    arin ,

    But let me call myself a women so i can stop being 10th place and take 1st in women league

    nelly_man ,

    Historically, women did not feel welcome at open chess tournaments. Chess talent was seen as synonymous with intellectual brilliance, so some men would not take it well when they were beat by a woman. I like to think that this has changed, but there’s probably still an element of this. Regardless, women’s tournaments were set up so that women who wanted to play chess competitively would have an opportunity to do so safely and without the fear of harassment. They still exist because people still compete in them and enjoy them, so why stop?

    TeoTwawki ,
    @TeoTwawki@lemmy.world avatar

    Thank you.

    lorez ,

    Now wait a minute. I can see why there are issues with males transitioning to female participating in female sports because a man is clearly advantaged over a female but in mental activities what does it matter?

    Chriskmee ,

    From what I’ve been able to gather, when gender is anonymous like in online chess men and women seem to compete pretty comparably, but in real life women appear to compete worse against men than other women. Maybe they feel intimidated, idk, but that’s what the data seems to show.

    mar_k ,
    @mar_k@hexbear.net avatar

    Yeah I feel like it’s mostly a cultural thing. In the past, women were discouraged (and at a certain point not allowed) from playing chess, so it’s always been a male dominated hobby

    In general, women tend to be reluctant to get into male dominated interests and occupations when there isn’t a welcoming, large enough space for them (e.g. depending on gender roles and expectations, some countries have mostly male doctors, some have an equal amount of male/female doctors, and some have mostly female doctors). So there isn’t exactly a large enough pool of women who care enough to really get into chess and make achievements in it. it’s also just, kind of a boring hobby to get into imo

    TheBlue22 ,

    This whole transgender people in sports “debate” (a debate should have good arguments on both sides, this one doesn’t) is nothing but shitass boomers punishing people they think are “weird” for no other reason than spite.

    madcaesar ,

    I really wish posts like this included more interesting discussion, instead of 90 % of people just white knighting how shocked they are and how awful this is!

    Yea we get it after the first comment, you don’t need to post the same shit over and over.

    My personal genuine question is to women, how they feel about transgender women in their sports? For physical sports I’d imagine it matters even more.

    Chess is just a brain game so it really shouldn’t matter at all, but I’d still love to womens opinion on the subject.

    Urbanfox ,

    Woman here, and genuinely, I don’t know what’s right.

    I can recognise that m>f after puberty gives someone a strength advantage but at the same time it’s hard enough having to transition without feeling even more marginalised by being banned from sports.

    Maybe there needs to be just a women’s and open category to recognise the strength handicap that cis women have for certain activities and allow anyone to compete in open, but then there’s the challenge of prize money, viewers etc etc between the two that also needs to be managed appropriately.

    At the end of the day, someone isn’t going to be happy and for that there is no good solution, but we need to be doing our best for cis and trans athletes to make sure everyone has a chance to compete in the sports they live.

    Chess? Banning trans competitors is fucking idiotic and the chess federation can fuck right off with that implied notion of women being less capable.

    Shnog ,

    In most sports the men’s group is technically open. Most women just don’t succeed because of the sheer difference in physicality.

    MindlessZ ,

    Maybe there needs to be just a women’s and open category to recognise the strength handicap that cis women have for certain activities and allow anyone to compete in open, but then there’s the challenge of prize money, viewers etc etc between the two that also needs to be managed appropriately.

    I’m fairly certain that this is already the case, and what’s being done here as well. Specifically that there isn’t a “men’s” category, there’s open, and there’s women’s. In chess specifically it’s a strange situation. My understanding is that the existence of “women’s chess” isn’t due to any inferiority of play (though there’s undoubtedly some sexism in its origin) but rather as a way to entice women to play and grow the sport. There’s no restrictions on a woman being granted the grandmaster title, but a man can’t hold a Women’s Grandmaster title.

    Not keeping your women specific titles as a trans man at least tracks for that. As to not being able to compete as a trans woman I don’t really see the point. I could see an argument for resetting your ELO because there is a lower ELO pool in women’s chess (due to population, nothing enforced) and your ELO could be unduly skewed, but idk. That’s kinda getting beyond my competitive chess knowledge

    Tldr; this is probably dumb and misguided, but maybe not as hostile as the headline first looked to me

    darq ,
    @darq@kbin.social avatar

    Hang on a sec...

    I can recognise that m>f after puberty gives someone a strength advantage

    This is the sort of thing that is said in these conversations, as if it is simply fact. A common sense truth that we all agree on.

    But it's not. Transgender women might retain some advantage after transition, but they also might not. That is something that is intensely studied, and hotly debated. Results have been found to support either hypothesis, and may differ from sport to sport. It's not cut-and-dry in the slightest.

    figaro ,

    I think I read in a study somewhere that after transition, a trans female retains a certain amount of muscle mass and strength for a minimum of 2 years after transitioning. I’ll try to find the study and link it when I’m on the computer.

    That said, there is absolutely nuance to be had here, and the chess organization is being both transphobic and sexist at this point 😼‍💹

    darq ,
    @darq@kbin.social avatar

    I think I read in a study somewhere that after transition, a trans female retains a certain amount of muscle mass and strength for a minimum of 2 years after transitioning. I’ll try to find the study and link it when I’m on the computer.

    That's why I said that the evidence is highly mixed. I've seen multiple studies that conclude that there is no reason to believe trans women retain advantage, but I also don't doubt that you have seen the results you say you have either.

    Then it gets even more complicated with, what kind of strength are we talking about? And for what sport? There are even arguments made that increased bone size and density, paired with female-range muscle strength that trans women at least approach if not reach after a few years of transition, may represent a net disadvantage for transgender women.

    I just wanted to call out the one of the incorrect assumptions that even well-meaning folks make when talking about transgender people. Because they're really quite common unfortunately.

    That said, there is absolutely nuance to be had here, and the chess organization is being both transphobic and sexist at this point 😼‍💹

    100%.

    abraxas ,

    I’d like to interject that it’s not necessarily the evidence that mixed, but its interpretation. The same data can be taken two different ways.

    I just finished reading a link (wish I kept the url) that argued trans woman runners still outperform cis women by 12% after 2 years of hormones, pointing out the competitive requirements are only 1 year of hormones. Only in the subtleties do you find that their metrics for performance did not just involve running speed (but included push-ups), and that the underlying research admitted in conclusions that they were likely over-rating the trans women’s competitiveness


    One of the things that I read somewhere that REALLY stuck with me is this. There will always be an "evidence-based "argument to attack trans atheletes so long as there is at least one trans athelete that is outperforming cis atheletes. If trans women are equivalent to cis women, then the real answer is that it should be even (weighted obviously) odds that the best in the world would be trans or cis
 but what we seek to validate “fairness” is that no trans athelete ever actually rises to the top. Because if they do, it must have been their gender advantage.

    darq ,
    @darq@kbin.social avatar

    I’d like to interject that it’s not necessarily the evidence that mixed, but its interpretation. The same data can be taken two different ways.

    I mean yes and no, some studies don't find evidence of competitive advantage. Some do. So, yes I agree that interpretations are mixed, but also evidence, between studies. And then interpretations of the entire body of evidence are mixed, but I personally don't think that those interpretations are of much relevance, this is a discussion that has to happen at a more granular level of each sport.

    I just finished reading a link (wish I kept the url) that argued trans woman runners still outperform cis women by 12% after 2 years of hormones, pointing out the competitive requirements are only 1 year of hormones. Only in the subtleties do you find that their metrics for performance did not just involve running speed (but included push-ups), and that the underlying research admitted in conclusions that they were likely over-rating the trans women’s competitiveness


    I actually think I've seen that one, yeah. One of the reasons I mention "what kind of strength", and how that's going to differ for each sport. But yeah, in that case, an exclusion period of two years, is not unreasonable at highly competitive levels.

    One of the things that I read somewhere that REALLY stuck with me is this. There will always be an "evidence-based "argument to attack trans atheletes so long as there is at least one trans athelete that is outperforming cis atheletes. If trans women are equivalent to cis women, then the real answer is that it should be even (weighted obviously) odds that the best in the world would be trans or cis
 but what we seek to validate “fairness” is that no trans athelete ever actually rises to the top. Because if they do, it must have been their gender advantage.

    Yeah, I agree 100% here. We should expect a roughly proportional number of transgender women to be successful.

    But literally any single example of a transgender women succeeding is enough to have people crying "but they're a man!". Because, for a lot of people, they really just wanted to call trans women men, the whole sports thing is mostly just pretense.

    abraxas ,

    Exactly. I recently watched Lance Armstrong go off on a silly survival TV show about how trans folk should not be allowed in men/women’s sports and try to defend it with a truly pointless argument of “unless there’s overwhelming proof” bullshit.

    He almost got voted off the show for that rant alone. If it weren’t on Fox, he would have.

    darq ,
    @darq@kbin.social avatar

    The last person I want to hear from about fairness in sports is Lance Armstrong. Bloody hell, lol

    abraxas ,

    No shit. Especially on a silly celeb survival show hosted by Will Shatner.

    electrogamerman ,

    The solution is easy, just open more categories ciswomen, transwomen and anyone who identifies with the female gender. Same for men. Done.

    Feathercrown ,

    Not enough people to make a meaningful category tho

    electrogamerman ,

    Point is more categories are required now. Leave cis women as category then make other categories like open for all, trans people, people that identifies with the female gender, etc. Sure some categories might not have many competitors, but this way eveyone can play in the categories they feel comfortable.

    Feathercrown ,

    The problem is that the way sports is funded is through competition and you can’t have competition without competitors. Small categories are inefficient and will be removed as a business decision. Also it’s kind of meaningless to say “I’m the best in X category” when there are 3 people in that category.

    Blackmist ,

    I just don’t think there’s a blanket answer, that doesn’t involve invasive poking and prodding. There’s always going to be somebody unhappy.

    Any pro-trans decision, like just opening it up and having ability ranked categories is in danger of sidelining women’s sports. But
 they are anyway


    England have just reached the women’s World Cup final in Australia. I look out the window right now, and I don’t see a single England flag. For the men’s tournament last year there was so many flags about you’d think we’d just crowned a new king on St George’s Day. People were playing “Three Lions” for the 13th major tournament in a row. And we did fucking rubbish in that compared to the ladies.

    It’s strange the these people “protecting women’s sports” are completely absent when it comes to supporting them.

    bitsplease ,

    It’s strange the these people “protecting women’s sports” are completely absent when it comes to supporting them.

    It’s really not strange at all when you consider the fairly obvious fact that it was never about protecting women’s sports, but instead about finding a way to hurt trans people that plays well in the media.

    Seriously, find me a conservative whose railing against trans women in sports that has actually attended a WNBA game, or is watching every game of the women’s world cup. I’m sure they exist, but I’d be surprised if even 5% of the people who act like the world will end if trans women are allowed to compete in sports have ever actually expressed interest in womens sports. And hell, I’ll bet the number who have actively made fun of womens sports before this became a hot topic is a hell of a lot higher lol

    abraxas ,

    It might help you to understand that there has been a lot of study in many sports (for the very reason of your uncertainty).

    Apparently, testosterone level (not birth gender) is the effective indicator of expected performance. In all women’s sports that allow trans competitors, trans individuals need to test **lower ** testosterone levels than are naturally allowable in cis women.

    The issue is this. For someone trans to be willing and able to power through all the bullshit, they need to be uniquely dedicated and talented (or they’d just not do it). What that means is that unsurprisingly some trans individuals are absolutely phenomenal at a given sport.

    Ultimately, there’s the problem. “We” seem to think a m>f individual doesn’t have an unfair advantage ONLY if they lose. So we’re not looking for the average or variance of skill, only the fact that there exists a trans individual that shines. It’s hard not to look at a trans woman winning and say “see, that’s what happens when someone born male competes with a woman in this sport”. But it’s also unscientific, as the science says trans women compete with comparative attributes to cis women.

    Chess? Banning trans competitors is fucking idiotic and the chess federation can fuck right off with that implied notion of women being less capable.

    Yeah, there’s no real defense to the two being separated in any league.

    iridaniotter OP ,
    @iridaniotter@lemmygrad.ml avatar

    “Discussion” about this is just transphobic concern trolling, so it’s not necessary.

    barsoap ,

    Statistics. The Woman’s league in principle only exists because many many more men play chess so they dominate the top ranks by statistics alone.

    Stoneykins ,

    Oops, you gave it away! Turns out if you make this move you either admit:

    1. That you think people who are biologically male have an advantage in mental only competition
    2. That you want to punish transgender people for transitioning by taking away what they’ve earned and preventing them from participating in the future.

    How completely and utterly shocking, that the trans people in sports “fairness” debate was just a badly put together costume for sexism and transphobia. I tell you, I’m more shocked about this than anything. Definitely.

    RobotToaster ,

    That you think people who are biologically male have an advantage in mental only competition

    Doesn’t supporting gender/sex separated leagues existing at all imply exactly the same thing?

    Notorious_handholder ,

    Im not too familiar with Chess, but is there gendered leagues with Chess? Cause if so that seems really weird.

    Like physical sports I understand a seperation and understand the need to regulate transgendered individuals due to physical difference between genders.

    But for a mental cognitive sport that seems ludicrous to do

    freagle ,

    Yes, there are gendered leagues with Chess because misogyny

    nuxetcrux ,

    If women were treated equally at the highest level of chess they would only have <1% representation as of 2021.

    There is only one woman in the top 100 ELO currently.

    If women were held to the same intellectual standards of men in chess, they would only exist as rare, near singular phenomena, and then THAT would, rightfully, be called misogyny.

    If you want to compete at the highest level, you must first compete–if you cannot compete, then you are not competing–it’s built into the concept a priori. White men who are hateful are all for affirmative action because it keeps the weak weak. You can imagine Don Draper smiling and typing back whiskey while the victims are given handouts–resented by the rest of humanity, wrongfully or rightfully–this is how they make their racist fantasies racist realities.

    I don’t think it’s an intellectual shortcoming either: it may even be that men are just mentally ill when it comes to excellence in competition and not excellence for its own sake, which I think more women are open minded enough to see; and, that men are more likely to take things “too far.”

    Men also had to swallow that computers–built by people of diverse backgrounds and genders–are far better at calculating chess outcomes, and someone might complain that computer constructors should be allowed to enter AI and have it ELO ranked.

    On top of all this, I think chess would be delighted with female stars especially after Queen’s Gambit. I can’t imagine they would turn down the massive amounts of money that would generate (see formula W drivers/Danica Patrick) even if all they did was ALMOST win.

    At some point reality sets and you’re left with only hard truths. The hard truth about chess is that it’s a war fantasy computation board game probably invented by and for male brain reward structure.

    Women are proving much more capable than men in society, which is what matters, but if they want to win at chess or backgammon or go or shogi they’re going to have to develop an insane priority structure where you would sooner skin your mother alive than lose.

    RedWizard ,
    @RedWizard@lemmygrad.ml avatar

    Next, you’re going to tell me skull size matters.

    ImOnADiet ,
    @ImOnADiet@lemmygrad.ml avatar

    no, it’s a tool used to combat the overwhelming misogyny that makes it extremely unappealing for women to participate in. It’s only effective when these orgs actually use other policies to work alongside it, which of course they never do.

    Stoneykins ,

    IMO you’ve hit the nail on the head.

    These conflicts and confusions are the consequences of gendered leagues, but because the issues come up in the context of transgender people, it makes it seem like an issue with transgender people.

    Buuut then there is the issue of the representation of women in (most) popular professional sports is much lower, and would be worse without this delineation along gender lines.

    So what we need is to make up our mind if we want either:

    All sports to be as fair at all times as physically possible

    Or

    If we want to see all genders fairly represented in popular professional sports

    If it is the first, we should ungender the leagues. If it is the second, we should stop worrying about it and let transgender people compete wherever they want.

    AOCapitulator ,
    @AOCapitulator@hexbear.net avatar

    “the transphobia is because we gave the women their own space, that was our mistake”

    No, it was because of transphobia

    Stoneykins ,

    That isn’t what I’m saying, I agree the transphobia is just transphobia.

    I’m trying to talk about why this issue confuses so many people, and why people that aren’t well educated on gender often fall for the transphobes bullshit when it comes to the “fairness” in sport shit, as well as guess at a possible way to recontextualize this “debate” in a way that benefits trans people.

    Skill and talent aren’t cleanly split along gender lines just because that is a convenient way to split the leagues. If these transphobes are so concerned about “fairness” then we should have more leagues for all sports delineated by something besides gender, I recommend weight class. Or, if the point was for women to have a space, then it should be a space for all women, and trans women should be allowed to participate. That second option is the one I would pick.

    bitsplease ,

    yes - but at least there you could argue that it’s a historical relic.

    I don’t think anyone could reasonably argue that the attitude that men are smarter than women (or at least, better at chess) didn’t exist previously, and that’s why they leagues are setup this way. But it’s one thing to not change existing policies rooted in sexism, and another entirely to create new policies rooted in sexism.

    The former happens literally all the time, because large institutions are slow to change, and even though blatant sexism is no longer socially acceptable, it’s still prevalent in peoples’ heads. When the latter happens, it understandably causes more uproar, because it’s an active move towards more sexist policies.

    Don’t get me wrong, we should absolutely get rid of gender based leagues IMO and switch to having leagues based on ability (whatever the critical ability might be for the competition in question) and call it a day - that would solve both the sexism issue and the trans issue, as there would no longer be any “unfair advantages”. What genitals a person was born with - whether they kept them or not - shouldn’t impact how you’re allowed to compete especially in an activity like chess that has no reasonable basis for gender separation in the first place

    randon31415 ,

    Well, sometimes it is a physical competition. You can break your leg if you do a hard enough move!

    zik , (edited )

    you think people who are biologically male have an advantage in mental only competition

    They do. There are two types of chess competition: open and women only. Women don’t do well in the open competition which is why they added the women only competition.

    But it’s not because men on average have an advantage. It’s because men have a greater spread of chess ability so the very top men tend to do better than the top women.

    Braysl ,

    Something to keep in mind with studies are outside social factors such as less women playing chess and less women being exposed to chess at a young age. There are fewer women in chess and fewer girls learning chess, for probably centuries. This will have a factor when comparing two demographics.

    obinice ,
    @obinice@lemmy.world avatar

    Haha what a joke, do they think anyone will take them seriously after this? Who’s running FIDE, Putin?!

    Alas I have no interest in chess myself, but if I did, I’d stay far, far away from bigots and fascists like this lot have revealed themselves to be.

    HiImThomasPynchon ,
    @HiImThomasPynchon@hexbear.net avatar

    Whole dang game is about coming out as trans and violently abolishing the patriarchy and they ban trans women from top level play smh

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