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Auzy ,

It wasn’t a great debate, but I’ve had a brainfart when talking too before.

Also, the policy is what matters. What matters is also that Biden obviously was doing the right thing. Just because he doesn’t scream at people doesn’t mean he’s not a good choice still.

Whereas Trump was clearly obviously lying constantly

Tak ,
@Tak@lemmy.ml avatar

The real travesty was CNN here. There was no fact checking or the slightest attempt to keep them on topic.

I’d vote for a wet park bench over Trump. Biden was and still is the “Not Trump” candidate.

hglman ,

Trump wouldn’t have agreed if the mods were going to been anything but prompt readers

Wahots ,
@Wahots@pawb.social avatar

Yeah, FWIW, Biden actually talked about expanding stuff like drug price caps to save the government shitloads of money while also saving Americans money as well. Stuff like taxing people making over 400k a year only, lead pipe abatement, funding the ACA more, giving Ukraine the aid it needs to slap the dogshit out of russia, etc etc.

If I had no idea about either president, at leask I know what Biden’s future promises are and what he told us he got done in the past four years, even if he did have some sections where he kind of mucked up like this kid did.

Trump, while sounding more coherent vocally, was entirely all over the place with Afghanistan and immigrants bad (no plan?), and somehow he’s going to win the war in Ukraine and bring the WSJ reporter home, for free, before he’s even elected in just under five months. Oh, and apparently, he hopes he won’t die before then, though he didn’t sound so sure about that last night.

If I was an uninformed voter, I’d be like “Damn, biden is old, but at least he has a plan and a good team judging off his pretty amazing track record” capping insulin at $35 a mo instead of $400 is fucking awesome, not to mention the other drugs too. The massive investment in the US economy was also nice. Battery plants in Georgia, chip fabs across the country, fixing infrastructure cia the bipartisan infrastructure plan…all great stuff.

Auzy ,

Yeah. Biden said after “it’s hard to win a debate against a liar”.

If you’ve ever argued with someone on Facebook, it’s the same. Because it doesn’t matter what you say, they’ll simply claim you are lying and it’s easy to make up bullshit. Coming up with facts, supporting them and recalling your policies is a lot harder.

Whereas, Trump doesn’t need to worry about his policies. He just makes them up and throws in racism.

Trump wanted everyone to know he is a racism piece of shit. If anything, that was his only policy . I’ve never seen someone be so racist

What’s weird is that you hear Biden on different mics soon after, he sounded fine, so I think the mics may have needed adjusting too. But maybe the rules dictated both levels were the same or something

Wahots ,
@Wahots@pawb.social avatar

I think he really just had to get his rhythm going. Biden was never really a terrific public speaker even at the best of times (Or Obama was just like, absolutely world-class). He did get his promises out, though.

At the end of the day, Biden could have just twerked on stage for 100 min, and I still would have voted for him, as long as he has a plan for the next four years. He’s actually gotten a shocking amount of good stuff done for the average american, though some of it, like rebuilt bridges, high tech factories and prescription caps, might be years away before we reap the full benefits.

Hestia ,
@Hestia@hexbear.net avatar

The fire alarm has been going off for 5 years and they’re just now noticing the fire.

Wxnzxn ,
@Wxnzxn@lemmy.ml avatar

Yeah, while the republicans have basically openly moved to reactionary and fascist politics, thus implicitly accepting the status quo is over, the influential parts of the Democrats seem to have been clinging completely to the idea that the status quo is what is to be preserved - even though material reality will not make that possible.

Right now, we seem to be in a historical moment, where old privileges are breaking away from a continuing crisis in capitalism that basically has been smouldering since the (late) 70s and kept stable through neoliberal policies thus far. Old privileges being lost results in a reactionary shift worldwide at the moment. It will be harrowing, but there is at least always the possibility of the pendulum swinging the other way - right now, in the coming years, organisation, connecting people, openly presenting radical alternatives to prepare for that moment seems to be the most important work to me.

hglman ,

The Dems are reactionaries and that is a terrible best option.

Urist ,
@Urist@lemmy.ml avatar

Would you mind expanding on what you mean by material conditions and fascism in relation to old privileges (don’t know what you mean by the latter)?

Wxnzxn ,
@Wxnzxn@lemmy.ml avatar

So, I am heading to bed for the night, because I have been awake all night and day and the day before to catch the debate - but the short answer is: The decline of the middle class and the petite burgeoisie - which I in this case view not in the traditional definition, but also broader, as all the people owning a little bit of capital i.e. savings for old age in some fond or maybe a house of their own. Also the disappearance of job security and stable work relations.

With it, the conservative “lets keep things as they were” mindset of people who had a decent enough life, i.e. mostly boomers that lived through the economic growth phase of the post-war era, but also younger people dreaming of that time or having profited from it through their parents, comes into crisis. But as this mindset argues from its own experience, it dreams of the past (“Things worked back then, right?”), while missing, that the very same “working” system was what had within it, already the inherent nature that eventually led to it decaying around us. So they need to explain the decline as something caused by an outsider, a malevolent force.

At the same time, this decline of the middle class leads them to try and grasp to divisions that might “save” them from proletarisation - becoming properly dependend on paycheck to paycheck and owning nothing but their own labour power to sell on the market. So, racism for example - if you are white, you might just be spared from the above fate. And you can kick down, targeting all those brown people below instead of punching up - the latter is a lot more risky after all. And the people up above can’t be at fault, after all, you (or the people you heard about from the past) had a great life when those were around, right? It just have to be the “right” people, like you and the people of your nationality/race/religion/other ingroup - often depressingly arbitrary.

This is still a very reductive summary, a lot is missing, globalisation, how it relates to the net rate of profit, how consolidation happens, details about the ideology of our current times. But broken down to it’s basics it can be summarised as such. The middle class is disappearing as a consequence of capitalist development, which leads to them becoming panicky and diving headfirst into ideology.

Well, anyway, good night, hope it was possible to understand what I was trying to bring across in my rambling

Urist ,
@Urist@lemmy.ml avatar

Thanks! The increasing difference between material conditions of the upper middle class / petit bourgeoisie and the proletariat, and the often ensuing split of the middle class into these two, is definitely a contention point that allows for quick fascist demagogues to capitalize on. I see that the loss of “old privileges” for the former fortunate middle class allows for admiration of some greater past, which plays well into the fascist textbook.

However, I do think the far right’s success within young males, for example, is a different symptom of the same condition. That young people whose futures are diminished by capitalist exploitation tend towards fascism as their solution, while fully educated about its past and its options, is what baffles me the most.

Maybe I am overlooking something and that is why I did not get your point originally nor that which I described above, but to me there seems to be a disconnect of logic that is exceptional, even when taking into consideration that we are talking about supporters of the far right.

Wxnzxn ,
@Wxnzxn@lemmy.ml avatar

Yes, you raise a very important point that I completely glanced over with sleep-deprived tunnel vision brain. Young males are a group, where ideological factors are a lot more prevalent. A constant barrage of presenting the desirable thing to be succesful - everything from sexual gratification to security in life depends on it - is given to, well, actually everyone, but even today still predominately young males. In addition, the ideological explanation presents no proper “out” that has analytical value: If you don’t succeed, you are just some sort of beta cuck or whatever. How about you buy this course by this YouTube influencer, on how to get money and pussy by changing your own inadequacy, which of course in reality throws the vast majority of their fans into dependence and diminishes any resources they had.

This demand to be succesful, dominant, happy and stoic, weighing on the superego as basically an old dream of success that is becoming more and more unattainable but is still presented everywhere, is also in conflict with material reality. Being the breadwinner of a household where you have a wife that delivers reproductive labour and sexual gratification to you, while you earn the money and keep her dependent? Even with chauvinists that are deep into that ideological prison, households being able to earn enough money without both people working (often even more than two jobs) is not what we are seeing in the present and the future. So, this discrepancy has to be explained in a way, that is compatible with their ideology.

As a side note: parts of the liberal, more well-off “left” (a very relative term here) will basically just give them the answer “well, you are a stupid, low-IQ chud loser, so its your own fault” - basically reinforcing the very “sink or swim, be succesful, if you can’t be, it means something about you is wrong” ideology that creates this whole mess to begin with.

But of course, the answer many will then land on is a variant of my previous post: It worked in the past, right? An outside malevolent force must have corrupted this. It’s the feminists. It’s the Jews. It’s the insert enemy here. That is the core of it again - discrepancy between material reality and ideological demands and dreams within society. Concerning young men, the extreme right also has good illusionary ways to provide them with a sense of being powerful when they are in reality not, through violence that doesn’t threaten the upper classes, and relative privilege within their ideological stratified view of reality.

Ironically, that material reality of proletarisation can even fuel “tradwife” romanticism for some women - basically, the dream of being a loved and loving housewife, being submissive to and dependent on their husband and his income, anything, just to escape the dread of having to work under current conditions without any of the security of the past. (Note that actual submissive impulses that people potentially have as a fetish are a whole other thing in that discussion, but it is relevant, that for some submissive people at least, that can of course also add to the allure of that fantasy, just as the idea of being a breadwinner that has a dependent person giving them sexual gratification and admiration is alluring to people with dominant fetishisations)

Draedron ,

You are a hexbear lmao. You suck up to dictators around the world. I dont think we can take your comment serious since you always argue in bad faith.

freagle ,

Ad hominem

You argue in bad faith

Get bent

Urist ,
@Urist@lemmy.ml avatar

Yeah, obviously they are the laughing stock here… You should pay more mind to content than affiliations. Even though dbzer0 is a cool admin with a cool community, your comment does not portray you as such.

fine_sandy_bottom ,

pay more mind to content than affiliations

That’s not really possible when commenters with certain affiliations are known to be manipulative and participate in bad faith.

Urist ,
@Urist@lemmy.ml avatar

Eh, to the extent that Hexbear meme-culture is both prevalent and constitutes as participation in bad faith, that would be true. This was not an example of this, which only serves to prove that the reply was actually in bad faith itself.

nautilus ,

I distinctly remember that before I left Reddit, I had some lovely discourse with someone who was absolutely inconsolable over my opinion that Biden was too old for the job. Got called ageist and everything else they could think of.

Trust me, I hate being right.

SuperCub ,

I had a grandmother who died at 88 but was still sharp until that day she passed. It’s clear Biden needs to retire, he’s cognitively unable to act as a president, the media and Democratic establishment need to stop gas lightning us.

crusa187 ,

Hey man, under Biden we defeated Medicare. Mission Accomplished.

mctoasterson ,

You know it is pretty bad when a bunch of CNN commentators think he got smoked.

StaySquared ,

Think? They know, we all know. The world knows. The proof is in the pudding. People have been saying it. Biden is NOT capable of existing independently (needs assistance just for directions), much less of being a president.

tiefling ,

CNN got bought out by right wing media a little while ago iirc

go_go_gadget ,

Doesn’t mean they’re wrong.

pyre ,

alarm bells?

wait they didn’t know he was old before this debate?

go_go_gadget ,

Apparently millions of people during the 2020 primaries didn’t math long enough to realize Biden would be 86 years old after two terms.

forgotmylastusername ,

He was weak but they couldn’t adjust his mic levels? That was weird.

DragonTypeWyvern ,

What if that was the max?

dvoraqs ,

Then turn it up to 11

Luna ,
@Luna@lemmy.ml avatar

Please replace him with Hillary or Bernie or something it would be so funny. They could even have Hillary and Bernie debate for the candidacy 😂

MarcoPOLO ,

It’s her turn

Crackhappy ,
@Crackhappy@lemmy.world avatar

Shit, I’d vote for her again.

unphazed ,

Good god no. Bernie then any other Dem. Hillary is too much a follower. We need someone with “radical” (sensable) ideas.

Luna ,
@Luna@lemmy.ml avatar

🤣

NeuronautML ,

Trump would only win if the Democrat party found someone seemingly more inept than him.

I am impressed that the Democrat party managed to present not one, but two outstandingly incompetent candidates. In a row. That’s some bottom of the barrel advanced scraping techniques right there. They even managed to get a representation of both sexes.

I’m sure Mr. Biden will be terribly distraught, as soon as he is able to understand what’s happening around him at the moment.

Cube6392 ,

I do not understand how Elizabeth Warren didn’t get more interest 4 years ago. She was clearly the best candidate and one who has the kind of broad appeal Bernie Sanders does. I think I’m at a point where my belief is that the bankers who are probably gonna vote Republican anyway who fund campaigns very explicitly don’t want someone like Sanders or Warren to be president

jprice ,

The Democratic establishment doesn’t want people who go after their donors. Mainly big banks, but also pharmaceutical and insurance companies which if you ask me all need to be reformed and heavily regulated and a lot of people need to go to prison for what they’ve done to the country over the past 24 years. But hey, who am I, just somebody who wants better for the country that doesn’t have to do with sucking rich cocks.

sunzu ,

Corpo's lapdogs are on both sides but some how GOP ends appealing to the masses.

Some fucking warped reality.

PanArab ,
@PanArab@lemmy.ml avatar

It is easy to understand. The people who the Republican party appeals to are unlikely to vote Democratic, the Democratic Party by trying to appeal to them it is losing its base while not winning any Republican voters. The people who are likely to vote Democratic are more idealistic and will hold the Democratic Party to a high standard. The promised “push to the left” never came, and so the people are looking at two right wing candidates, the Republicans already got their guy in Trump and anyone even slightly left of center has no one to represent them.

Asafum ,

One-fucking-hundred percent.

Warren was my choice over Bernie for strategic value even though I like Bernie more. If we didn’t have explicitly Republican propaganda outlets I think conservatives would have been more comfortable with her too as she was once a Republican and understands business law.

Hell she literally wrote the book on my, and others, biggest issue “the two income trap” where society has defined economic success by “family income” instead of individual incomes. People like myself suffer because we’re perpetually single so we only have one income. Family income says everything is rosy because it’s now 2 incomes. :(

LarkinDePark ,

Seriously though, I don’t follow American electoral politics much, but why didn’t they swap him out for someone else? It’s a country of ~330m people. Like even the likes of Blinken would have been acceptable to them surely? What’s the actual reasoning?

Shyfer ,

An old American tradition to not run a primary during a President’s second term who is running for office. I guess it’s supposed to help unify the party behind a proven winner or something. That’s mostly it. Liberals love traditions, guidelines, and rules more than anyone.

Asafum ,

There’s some stupid adherence to precedent where we don’t primary an encumbant because in the past it didn’t work out well. So now we shut our eyes and pretend he isn’t absolutely one of the worst candidates ever because we refuse to primary him.

kylie_kraft ,

The Democrats are still stuck in this post-Clinton seniority mindset where they unofficially pick a candidate before primaries even begin, based on who has been around the longest and who has held the highest position. Remember “it’s her turn”? Yes, yes, I know it didn’t work against Obama, but heading into the debates everyone assumed Hillary would be the candidate until Obama put on the better show. More to the point, I think Obama breaking through scared the establishment Dems into doubling down on primary fuckery. See what happened to Bernie, twice. So now we have a president who knows all the right people but plays politics with the 1990s rulebook and has a terminal case of crusty old man voice.

Still better than Trump.

cmbabul ,

This is about a succinct of a deconstruction of the DNCs hand in this cycle as I’ve seen. They’re effectively Ned Stark

hglman ,

He literally is an old man. Which is the core issue.

MarcoPOLO ,

Obama has absolutely absurd charisma. He’s the Democrat version of Trump - knows exactly what to say to his base and knows how to convince moderates he’s not insane.

Clinton and Biden have the charisma of a limp noodle. Sanders has absurd charisma, but he’s seen as too big of a threat to Democrat lobbyists and big corporations.

Sanders would’ve mopped the floor with Trump because he would’ve actually been able to grab the 18-44 demographic (which last saw peaks in 1992 Clinton/Gore and 2008 Obama/Biden, both to unseat a Republican and, coincidentally, a Bush).

Sanders would have been able to avoid the collapse in turnout from working-class Black people in 2016.

Sanders would’ve stopped the increasing right-wing radicalization of the youth of America, or provided a counterweight for left-wing economic radicalization.

The US federal elections are basically a pony show and the DNC doesn’t know how to play the game without throwing out their playbook.

SpaceNoodle ,

What exactly is CNN trying to accomplish with this hit piece?

TropicalDingdong ,

HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAAHAHAH

Oh my god. You’ve gaslit yourself into another dimension.

grue ,

…says the guy that thinks there’s going to be a brokered convention that picks somebody other than Biden.

TropicalDingdong ,

?

Are you… touched?

Biden is going to release his delegates. Its over.

Enkers , (edited )

In 2009, CNN’s current CEO and chairman was called the 65th most powerful person in the world by Forbes.

I wonder if he’d have any financial incentive one way or the other?

Sunforged ,

You think CNN cares who wins?

Zipitydew ,

They do actually. CNN was bought by open Trump supporters back in 2022. It’s been stated a few times they want CNN to become another Fox News.

Wxnzxn ,
@Wxnzxn@lemmy.ml avatar

You know, as much as one has to keep Machiavellian machinations and Realpolitik in mind… Sometimes a cigar is just a cigar. Biden did not do well. They report about it in a way that gives them clicks. There is no plan.

nekandro OP ,

Calling a spade a spade is a hit piece now? Truly the least propagandized people on the planet.

exanime ,

Calling a spade a spade would at least include the mention that Trump didn’t answer a single question. All he did was ramble; I could stomach 3 questions and I cannot tell from the answer if Trump understood any of them

Cataphract ,

Article about the performance of Biden and the Democrats response

But But it’s unfair because they didn’t talk about Trump! This is exactly why we are in this mess to begin with.

xhieron ,
@xhieron@lemmy.world avatar

Ratings and clicks–same thing they wanted with the debate.

gndagreborn ,
@gndagreborn@lemmy.world avatar

CYA, probably.

Bo7a ,

Check out who runs CNN now and all will become apparent.

JimVanDeventer ,

When Jon Stewart referred to Biden’s expression as resting 25th amendment face. 💀

ShimmeringKoi ,
@ShimmeringKoi@hexbear.net avatar

Lol

spoilerLmao

Doubledee ,
@Doubledee@hexbear.net avatar

I poked into r/politics to see what was up and there’s a bunch of libs wondering how this old guy snuck in and became the nominee somehow, and how whoever did that should be fired. It’s really weird to see the about face, I thought he was a phenomenal candidate with a sterling record last week.

FiskFisk33 ,

deleted_by_author

    •
    shreddingitlater ,

    Please tell me this is a joke obama-socialism

    underisk ,
    @underisk@lemmy.ml avatar

    Chinese spies incepted Biden into acting like a demented 81 year old with the Havana syndrome gun.

    SoloboiNanook ,

    Lmao

    SexUnderSocialism , (edited )
    @SexUnderSocialism@hexbear.net avatar

    michael-laugh

    Ram_The_Manparts ,
    @Ram_The_Manparts@hexbear.net avatar

    10/10 bit

    PanArab ,
    @PanArab@lemmy.ml avatar

    We told you back in November but no one listened.

    AssortedBiscuits ,
    @AssortedBiscuits@hexbear.net avatar

    Here’s the original link in lemmy.ml if you want to see lemmy.world loser ledditors coping: lemmy.ml/post/17384440

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