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Munrock ,
@Munrock@lemmygrad.ml avatar

The Democrats knew this was going to happen. There’s no way they couldn’t. And I don’t mean Democrat supporters, many of whom were vehement that Biden was fine like so many anecdotes in this thread recount. I mean the Democrat leadership, who manage his campaign and more than likely manage his presidency. Unlike the public, they have access to him. They have his medical records, the reports of his doctors and caregivers, everything. There’s no way they didn’t know this would happen if he debated.

They might start seeding support for a different candidate into their supporter’s discourse after this, but they will have been planning for this outcome long ago. And when a left-leaning (left from a US Overton window) news platform hosts a debate that shows him up that badly and then publishes commentary like this, you have to wonder if that caused friction with the DNC or if they assented to it.

As the party starts singling out a replacement, the question I hope people start asking is why they didn’t replace Biden earlier? Did they need to wait until the urgency of imminent elections made their new candidate more palatable? And if they don’t replace Biden, why are they letting Trump win?

notanaltaccount ,

The conspiracy theorists all say Joe is supposed to step down and Gavin Newsom somehow is added to the ticket which then will win. These conspiracy theorists also say that candidates are selected in advance by the powers that be and it’s all pagentry to deceive the gullible masses. If this is true, the “outcry” of concern may be a part of the plan.

explodicle ,

Californian here: I’d rather have Biden than Newsom. The man is a snake. He’s a snake man. Human snake. 🐍

notanaltaccount ,

I am not saying I like him. It’s just what the conspiracy theorists all say, that it’s a done deal and he’s already selected. If it were up to me, I’d vote for ChatGPT.

AgentGrimstone ,

And he’s still the better choice

z00s ,

This whole thing gonna take the U outta the USA

It was good knowing ya, murrica

ipkpjersi ,

I’m more worried that he won’t win the election rather than he will win it. I don’t think the debate changes anything about that, people are likely still going to vote who they were going to vote for. He is the not Trump vote, and it’s just as important as ever if not more important to vote not Trump.

pyrflie , (edited )

Nothing that was said or done in this debate has changed my views or voting preferences. This is an election between two dementia patients. Both are previous generation religious bigots. But only one is an authoritarian fascist. I’m a single policy voter this election. I’ve seen and been shot at by the Aryan Nations. I don’t want to deal with that shit nationally.

Chakravanti ,

You don’t really have a choice. Biden basically just joke show to support Trump being elected and don’t get me started on that nightmare. There’s really only two responses to this but it ain’t electing and I ain’t gonna say it here.

I’m off to start my fire for this dark fucking night.

OurToothbrush ,

authoritarian fascist

Please just say fascist, authoritarian has horseshoe theory vibes which we don’t allow on this com.

RatzChatsubo ,

So what are the chances he steps down and Camila Harris becomes prez?

pyrflie ,

Hopefully he doesn’t. A former Cop doesn’t pole well at the best of times. He never should have taken her as a VP candidate.

arefx ,

Not to sound inappropriate but the only reason he picked her was because she was a black woman and he slipped up before announcing his candidate and hastily said he would only choose someone like that for VIP, and Kamala was the only one anyone was talking about at the time.

madcaesar ,

She would lose worse than Hillary.

captain_aggravated ,
@captain_aggravated@sh.itjust.works avatar

Biden shared a stage tonight with the only man he can reasonably defeat in this election. I think I should announce my candidacy, I could run on a “my dick can get hard without pharmaceuticals” platform.

theherk ,

Braggart!

Default_Defect ,
@Default_Defect@midwest.social avatar

Prove it.

crusa187 ,

Hey man, under Biden we defeated Medicare. Mission Accomplished.

pyre ,

alarm bells?

wait they didn’t know he was old before this debate?

go_go_gadget ,

Apparently millions of people during the 2020 primaries didn’t math long enough to realize Biden would be 86 years old after two terms.

nautilus ,

I distinctly remember that before I left Reddit, I had some lovely discourse with someone who was absolutely inconsolable over my opinion that Biden was too old for the job. Got called ageist and everything else they could think of.

Trust me, I hate being right.

SuperCub ,

I had a grandmother who died at 88 but was still sharp until that day she passed. It’s clear Biden needs to retire, he’s cognitively unable to act as a president, the media and Democratic establishment need to stop gas lightning us.

exanime ,

Actually, the other way around. We keep on compartmentalizing, Trump can lie all he wants and nothing happens, but Joe stutters and it’s a national disgrace… How can you compare one without including the only alternative?

nekandro OP ,

Republicans accept a post-truth society where everything is someone’s propaganda, that the federal government is out to get them and that the union would be better served as a union of state-level republics. Democrats still believe in the existence of a ground truth and want a union with centralized control (i.e., they are Federalists). Like the Federalists, the Democrats are backed by wealthy financial states (New York, California) as opposed to more rural/working-class states (Alabama, Ohio) and support heavy industrial subsidies (Biden’s IRA, CHIPS) as well as weak state governments.

This is a fundamental difference that explains a lot, actually. The role of government has always been to convince populations to pursue the policy goals of the elite. The foundations of representative democracy involve choosing which elites’ policy goals to follow. The Republicans want to follow state elites (to borrow a Chinese proverb, the mountains are high and the President is far away). The Democrats want to follow federal elites.

Here’s the real problem. The US gets to choose between a career politician and a career businessman (swindler, by definition). Who represents the working class? Who represents the people who actually built America’s economy?

exanime , (edited )

Nobody represents the people, but that’s not a new problem nor, in anyway, a new thing in this Trump era

My biggest fear is that the USA always gets to chose someone who does not represent them at all but at least had the notion that we need a planet to live in

Trump is a man child and will see the world burn out of petty spite. And us, in the rest of the world, would have to still live with those consequences

So back to the debate and the choice between Biden and Trump… Sure Biden is a terrible option, like chosing to get cancer… But Trump is like chosing to be gang raped, shot and left for dead in an open sewer and here we are pretending the 2 bad options are somehow the same

Cube6392 ,

Every American election for /years/ was coke v Pepsi. Not sure when it became coke v battery acid, nor why so many people are like “well I don’t like cola so maybe it will be okay to drink battery acid” and why it is that the Democrats still want to run coke when America has made it abundantly clear we’d like to be offered the chance to drink SOME CLEAN FUCKING WATER JESUS FUCKING CHRIST

exanime ,

Exactly right

go_go_gadget ,

My biggest fear is that the USA always gets to chose someone who does not represent them at all but at least had the notion that we need a planet to live in

That’s the part you’re missing. People are legitimately asking themselves “If these two people are my only choices and won’t improve my quality of life do I want to keep living?”

exanime ,

But again, maybe Biden is the status quo which is not great I admit, but Trump is torture then death… How is that even a “close” call to make?

go_go_gadget ,

Again you are not fully empathizing with people’s experience under… whoever for the last 20ish years. Some “young” people who are now in their 30s and 40s never really recovered from the financial crisis. Each day is already torture working a dead end job with shit pay where customers scream at them only to return to a tiny apartment with rent creeping up every single month.

exanime ,

It’s not a matter of empathy… If each day is torture under status quo, how is going under a regime promising to make it worse a better option?

go_go_gadget ,

You’re trying to trump despair with reason bud. Doesn’t work like that.

exanime ,

How is Trump going to improve anything for your example demographic?

You keep pretending there is logic there yet have shown no logical path there

robinnn ,
@robinnn@hexbear.net avatar

Can you actually explain the difference between the options and reconcile the fact that Hillary and the DNC purposefully elevated Trump behind the scenes (entire “lesser evil” rationale is a farce)? Thx!

Iceblade02 ,

The fact that the democrats have selected such a terrible candidate that Trump has a running chance for the third time in a row and that the US as a whole has selected two awful candidates for possibly the most important job in the world, that is a disgrace, and it is shameful.

GoodEye8 ,

Trump would have a running chance regardless of who the democrats pick would be, the electoral college and republican party have made sure of that.

miridius ,

Why is Trump the only alternative? There have to be 1000 better democrats than Biden.

pumpkinseedoil ,

I’m European so obviously anti trump (I’ve learnt a lot about politicians that used similar rhetoric, had a different personal cult around them, also tried overthrowing the state - history repeats when not learning from it) but damn, Biden was bad. I’d still vote for Biden simply to avoid trump, but I fear he has no chance to get >50% after that performance.

The democrats hopefully see the writing on the wall and replace him before it’s too late.

Gradually_Adjusting ,
@Gradually_Adjusting@lemmy.world avatar

It’s over. It was honestly over long ago, it’s just playing out in slow motion.

It will probably continue to play out for another thirty years at least. Increasingly horrible, so at any point “eight years ago” feels like back when things were sane, except we lost our minds decades ago already.

Sorry we’re the nation equivalent of DJ Khaled; we think we’re “suffering from success” but in truth we actually are and we don’t know it.

yogthos ,
@yogthos@lemmy.ml avatar

Problem for dems is that it’s way too late to replace him now. They had to accept reality last year and run a real primary. Instead they waited until the last moment, and now there’s not enough time for somebody new without an existing voter base to start campaigning.

SuperCub ,

There’s no way Biden can win. According to polls, he’s losing all the swing states, and that was before this debate took place. The DNC is going to give us Trump because they are elitist and don’t actually care about democracy.

doggle ,

Thankfully, he doesn’t actually need to win the majority vote (look up the electoral college if you’re curious/horrified), unfortunately that fact mostly benefits Trump.

It may already be too late to replace him. It would definitely be risky. And it’s not gonna happen unless Biden himself says so. If he runs against whoever the DNC were to pick to run against him or would guarantee a Trump win.

pumpkinseedoil ,

What’s riskier: Replacing him, or keeping him?

doggle ,

Honestly I have no idea

IchNichtenLichten ,
@IchNichtenLichten@lemmy.world avatar

As bad as Biden was, CNN were worse. Fuck that shitty network for allowing Trump to lie pretty much nonstop for 90 minutes unchallenged.

match ,
@match@pawb.social avatar

they gave both people plenty of time, biden is supposed to be capable of challenging on his own

IchNichtenLichten ,
@IchNichtenLichten@lemmy.world avatar

I disagree. Trump indulged in a gish gallop of lies and bullshit. Biden spent too much time trying to refute some of it and in doing so wasted time which he could’ve used to make his own points.

There should’ve been moderation in place to stop this, there was none.

go_go_gadget ,

which he could’ve used to make his own points.

Well I mean he did let everyone know we finally beat Medicare.

sndmn ,

Certainly the “moderator” isn’t expected to moderate the thing! /s

match ,
@match@pawb.social avatar

It wouldn’t do Biden any favors to be the third most charismatic person on the debate stage.

WanderingVentra ,

It takes longer to debunk a lie than to say one. It’s easy to spout out a hundred lies in two minutes, but it takes longer than that to debunk them without just saying “No, that’s a lie” to every one, which also sounds dumb if Trump is saying that, too.

go_go_gadget ,

And if Biden wasn’t senile he would have been able to do that.

fine_sandy_bottom ,

Not necessarily.

Perhaps 20 years ago Biden WorldCom acquitted himself better.

That said Trumps performance is a well established debate strategy called a gish gallop - just say dozens of lies and your opponent won’t be able to rebut them all. If they try, they won’t have time for their own points.

go_go_gadget ,

Hey if you’re trying to tell me Biden is a shit candidate you’ll get no argument from me. I remain furious at anyone who voted for him in the 2020 primaries.

LittleBorat2 ,

This post truth thing is a real problem because the average person does not bother checking facts. What they notice is some division, controversy etc. not that one person is lying. Also any moron can see that Biden is old.

Someone with simple answers wins these debates. Notice how Biden says the right things all the time but he won’t reach people like this.

go_go_gadget ,

Notice how Biden says the right things all the time

Are you talking about during the debate? “We finally beat Medicare!” ain’t that.

And if you think Biden said the right things about the rail strike or protests around the weapon shipments to Israel you’re living in some kind of grand delusion that excludes millions of people you’re depending on to get Biden re-elected.

Auzy ,

It wasn’t a great debate, but I’ve had a brainfart when talking too before.

Also, the policy is what matters. What matters is also that Biden obviously was doing the right thing. Just because he doesn’t scream at people doesn’t mean he’s not a good choice still.

Whereas Trump was clearly obviously lying constantly

Tak ,
@Tak@lemmy.ml avatar

The real travesty was CNN here. There was no fact checking or the slightest attempt to keep them on topic.

I’d vote for a wet park bench over Trump. Biden was and still is the “Not Trump” candidate.

hglman ,

Trump wouldn’t have agreed if the mods were going to been anything but prompt readers

Wahots ,
@Wahots@pawb.social avatar

Yeah, FWIW, Biden actually talked about expanding stuff like drug price caps to save the government shitloads of money while also saving Americans money as well. Stuff like taxing people making over 400k a year only, lead pipe abatement, funding the ACA more, giving Ukraine the aid it needs to slap the dogshit out of russia, etc etc.

If I had no idea about either president, at leask I know what Biden’s future promises are and what he told us he got done in the past four years, even if he did have some sections where he kind of mucked up like this kid did.

Trump, while sounding more coherent vocally, was entirely all over the place with Afghanistan and immigrants bad (no plan?), and somehow he’s going to win the war in Ukraine and bring the WSJ reporter home, for free, before he’s even elected in just under five months. Oh, and apparently, he hopes he won’t die before then, though he didn’t sound so sure about that last night.

If I was an uninformed voter, I’d be like “Damn, biden is old, but at least he has a plan and a good team judging off his pretty amazing track record” capping insulin at $35 a mo instead of $400 is fucking awesome, not to mention the other drugs too. The massive investment in the US economy was also nice. Battery plants in Georgia, chip fabs across the country, fixing infrastructure cia the bipartisan infrastructure plan…all great stuff.

Auzy ,

Yeah. Biden said after “it’s hard to win a debate against a liar”.

If you’ve ever argued with someone on Facebook, it’s the same. Because it doesn’t matter what you say, they’ll simply claim you are lying and it’s easy to make up bullshit. Coming up with facts, supporting them and recalling your policies is a lot harder.

Whereas, Trump doesn’t need to worry about his policies. He just makes them up and throws in racism.

Trump wanted everyone to know he is a racism piece of shit. If anything, that was his only policy . I’ve never seen someone be so racist

What’s weird is that you hear Biden on different mics soon after, he sounded fine, so I think the mics may have needed adjusting too. But maybe the rules dictated both levels were the same or something

Wahots ,
@Wahots@pawb.social avatar

I think he really just had to get his rhythm going. Biden was never really a terrific public speaker even at the best of times (Or Obama was just like, absolutely world-class). He did get his promises out, though.

At the end of the day, Biden could have just twerked on stage for 100 min, and I still would have voted for him, as long as he has a plan for the next four years. He’s actually gotten a shocking amount of good stuff done for the average american, though some of it, like rebuilt bridges, high tech factories and prescription caps, might be years away before we reap the full benefits.

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