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Ginger666 ,

But but the memory is more efficient, 8 is actually 16!

LMAOOOOOOO šŸ¤”

disguy_ovahea , (edited )

UM on an SoC is not the same thing as RAM on a PC with a CPU and GPU. Itā€™s purely a storage liaison, since data is passed directly from core to core.

Itā€™s not that itā€™s more efficient, itā€™s simply used less than in conventional PC architecture.

MacOS is also designed specifically to leverage the hardware, so practical use is the only legitimate comparison to a PC.

Maybe PC Gamer isnā€™t the most informed reviewer of technology outside of PCs.

RogueBanana ,

Guessing you havenā€™t rear the article. That quote is from apple not author, he is actually 100% against it throughout the article.

magiccupcake ,

This is a truly terrible article.

Like why not test these things? This just sounds like ai generated garbage.

That being said, 8gb is an abysmally low amount of ram in 2024. I had a mid range surface in 2014 that had that much ram. And the upcharge for more is quite ridiculous too.

I know itā€™s pc ram but I bought 64gb of ddr4 3600mhz for like $130. How on earth is apple charging $200 for 8!!!

Shadywack ,
@Shadywack@lemmy.world avatar

Looks like you didnā€™t read the article either.

Overall, Iā€™m using 12.5GB of memory and the only application I have open is Chrome. Oh, and did I mention Iā€™m typing this on a 16GB MacBook Air? I used to have an 8GB Apple silicon Air and to be frank it was a nightmare, constantly running out of memory just browsing the web.

Earlier itā€™s mentioned that they have 15 tabs open. I donā€™t like a lot of things they do in ā€œgaming journalismā€ but on this article theyā€™re spot on. Apple is full of shit in saying 8GB is enough by todayā€™s standards. 8GB is a fuckin joke, and you canā€™t add any RAM later.

magiccupcake ,

Oh no I read the article, I just donā€™t consider that testing.

Itā€™s not really apt to compare using ram on a browser on one computer and extract that to another, thereā€™s a lot of complicated ram and cache management that happens in the background.

Testing would involve getting a 8gb ram Mac computer and running common tasks to see if you can measure poorer performance, be it lag, stutters or frame drops.

Shadywack ,
@Shadywack@lemmy.world avatar

You do have a point, but I think the intent of the article is to convey the common understanding that Apple is leaning on sales tactics to convince people of a thing that anyone with technical acumen sees through immediately. Regardless of how efficient Mach/Darwin is, itā€™s still apples to apples (pun intended) to understand how quickly 8GB fills up in 2024. For those who need a fully quantitative performance measurement between 8 and 16GB, with enough applications loaded to display the thrashing that starts happening, theyā€™re not really the audience. THAT audience is busy reading about gardening tips, lifestyle, and celebrity gossip.

ABCDE ,

That doesnā€™t make sense. I have the 8GB M2 and donā€™t have any issues with 20+ tabs, video calling, torrents, Luminar, Little Snitch, etc open right now.

Shadywack ,
@Shadywack@lemmy.world avatar

15 tabs of Safari, which is demonstrably a better browser by some opinions due to its efficiency and available privacy configuration options. What if you prefer Chrome or Firefox?

I will argue in Appleā€™s defense that their stack includes very effective libraries that intrinsically made applications on Mac OS better in many regards, but 8GB is still 8GB, and an SoC isnā€™t upgradeable. Competition has far cheaper 16GB options, and Apple is back to looking like complete assholes again.

ABCDE ,

Iā€™m using Chrome.

adam ,

The fact you got downvoted for someone elseā€™s assumption (that was upvoted) makes me chuckle. Thereā€™s some serious Apple hating going on here*.

*sometimes deserved. Not really in this case.

ABCDE ,

Itā€™s very odd, Iā€™ve had the weirdest downvotes.

disguy_ovahea ,

Thatā€™s because PC people try to equate specs in dissimilar architecture with an OS that is not written explicitly to utilize that architecture. They havenā€™t read enough about it or experienced it in practice to have an informed opinion. We can get downvoted together on our ā€œsub standard hardwareā€ that works wonderfully. lol

pivot_root ,

The only memory-utilization-related advantage gained by sharing memory between the CPU and GPU is zero-copy operations between the CPU and GPU. The occasional texture upload and framebuffer access is nowhere near enough to make 8 GiB the functional equivalent of 16 GiB.

If you want to see something ā€œwritten explicitly to utilize [a unified memory] architecture,ā€ look no further than the Nintendo Switch. The operating system and applications are designed specifically for the hardware, and even first-party titles are choked by the hardwareā€™s memory capacity and bandwidth.

disguy_ovahea ,

The Tegra is similar being an SoC, however it does not possess nearly as many dedicated independent processing cores designed around specialized processes.

The M1 has 10-core CPU with 8 performance cores and 2 efficiency cores, a 16-core GPU, a 16-core Neural Engine, and all with 200GB/s memory bandwidth.

pivot_root ,

The M1-3 is still miles ahead of the Tegra, I donā€™t disagree. My point was that software designed specifically for a platform canā€™t make up for the platformā€™s shortcomings. The SOC itself is excellently designed to meet needs well into the future, but that 8 GiB of total system memory on the base model is unfortunately a shortcoming.

Appleā€™s use of memory compression stops it from being too noticeable, but itā€™s going to become a problem as application memory requirements grow (like with the Switch).

disguy_ovahea ,

Sure, but no one is saying 8GB is good enough for everyone. Itā€™s a base model. Grandma can use it to check her Facebook and do online banking. Itā€™s good for plenty of basic users. I have an M1 Mini with 8GB that I use as a home server. It works great, but I need my M2 MBP with 16GB UM to use FCP, PS, and Logic Pro. With that, I can master 4K HDR in FCP from an unmastered source in Logic Pro without high memory pressure, let alone swap. Thereā€™s no way Iā€™d have the same performance from a PC with 16GB of RAM in Adobe Premiere and Pro Tools. Iā€™ve been there before.

8GB really is a suitable low-end configuration, and most Mac users would agree. Iā€™m not surprised a magazine dedicated to PC gaming hardware thinks otherwise.

fuckwit_mcbumcrumble ,

Your 64 gigs of ram probably uses 10x the power and takes up significantly more space than the single memory chip thatā€™s on the M1-M3s die. And yet it still has less bandwidth than the M1, and on top of that the M1 utilizes it more efficiently than a ā€œnormalā€ desktop or laptop can since thereā€™s one pool of memory for RAM RAM and VRAM.

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Apple_M1#:~:text=While the ā€¦

Chat GPT guestimates 57GB/s for dual channel DDR4 at 3600mhz

$1000 for 8 gigs of RAM in the Air is whatever. $1200 for 8 gigs of ram in the Pro was not great. But 1600 for 8 gigs of ram in the new M3 MBP is really awful.

pivot_root ,

the M1 utilizes it more efficiently than a ā€œnormalā€ desktop or laptop can since thereā€™s one pool of memory for RAM RAM and VRAM.

Thatā€™s not how it works, unfortunately.

A UMA (unified memory architecture) enables zero-copy texture uploads and frame buffer access, but thatā€™s not likely to constitute notable memory savings outside games or GPU-accelerated photo editing. Most of the memory is going to be consumed by applications running on the CPU anyway, and thatā€™s not something that can be improved by sharing memory between the CPU and GPU.

And yet [your 64 gigs of ram] still has less bandwidth than the M1

Itā€™s by necessity that the M1 has higher memory bandwidth. UMA comes with the drawback of the GPU and CPU having to share that memory, and thereā€™s only so much bandwidth to go around. GPU cores are bandwidth hungry, which is mitigated by either using a pile of L2 cache or by giving the system better memory bandwidth.

freeman ,

Memory bandwidth is useless if you run out of memory and need to swap.

GPU not having itā€™s own pool of memory is really going to help to.

Pigs fly in apple land.

adam ,

Written by someone who apparently has no understanding of virtual memory. Chrome may claim 500MB per tab but Iā€™ll eat my hat if the majority of that isnā€™t shared between tabs and paged out.

If Iā€™m misunderstanding then how the fuck is chrome with itā€™s 35+ open tabs functioning on my 16GB M1 machine (with a full other application load including IDEā€™s and docker (with 8GB allocated)

magiccupcake ,

I have plenty of understanding of what virtual memory memory is. For one, virtual memory is orders of magnitude slower than physical RAM.

My point still stands, 8gb is fine if all you do is light web browsing and writing documents which is basically nothing, but at that point you donā€™t need a 2024 Macbook anything, you could use a older M1 Macbook and be perfectly happy.

All web browsers will use up as much ram as possible, that doesnā€™t mean they need it.

Even you donā€™t have a device with 8gb of memory, just because itā€™s usable doesnā€™t mean thatā€™s itā€™s optimal, or that itā€™s not a ripoff to charge $200 for another 8gb.

orclev ,

What a load of nonsense. Youā€™ve got no idea how a computer works. RAM isnā€™t just used for passing data between cores. If anything thatā€™s more the role of cache although even that isnā€™t strictly accurate.

Whether a system has a discrete GPU or not doesnā€™t really factor into the discussion one way or another, although even if it did having more RAM would be even more important without a discrete GPU because a portion of the system RAM gets utilized as VRAM.

Shadywack ,
@Shadywack@lemmy.world avatar

Itā€™s not that itā€™s more efficient, itā€™s simply used less than in conventional PC architecture.

Itā€™s not that youā€™re wrong from a philosophical perspective with that, itā€™s that youā€™re factually incorrect. Memory addresses donā€™t suddenly shrink or expand depending on where they exist on the bus or the CPU. Being on the SoC doesnā€™t magically make RAM used less by the OS and applications, as the mach kernel, Darwin, and various MacOS layers still address the same amount of memory as they would on traditional PC architecture.

Memory is memory, just like glass is glass, and glass will still scratch at a level 7 just like 8GB of RAM holds the same amount of information asā€¦8GB of RAM.

The article actually quantitatively tests this too by pointing out their memory usage with Chrome and different numbers of tabs open.

Looks like you didnā€™t read the article.

disguy_ovahea ,

You should familiarize yourself with the architecture before commenting. The GPU is broken into several cores of the SoC, along with the roles of the CPU. The UM is not part of the SoC. However, data is passed from what could be referred to as the CPU to what could be referred to as the GPU without interacting with UM.

Shadywack ,
@Shadywack@lemmy.world avatar

Iā€™m actually deeply familiar with the architecture, and how caches, memory, and UMā€™s work. I understand all of that. None of that changes the storage available. Having high memory bandwidth to load/unload memory addresses doesnā€™t fix the issue of the environment easily exceeding 8GB. I also understand the caching principles and how you actually want RAM utilization to be higher for faster responsiveness. 8GB is still 8GB, and a joke.

disguy_ovahea ,

Use your experience and analyze Appleā€™s M SoC before we continue this conversation.

Shadywack ,
@Shadywack@lemmy.world avatar

A weeklong battery life, efficient cores, rapid response time, and great software environment make it a great choiceā€¦at 16GB for my needs. I will not recommend 8GB to any user at all going forward. Itā€™s marketing malarkey with no future proofing, degrading the viable longevity of the machine.

Thereā€™s no conversation to continue. Glass is glass, and 8GB is 8GB, as well as being a joke.

disguy_ovahea ,

If itā€™s great for your needs, the base model isnā€™t for you. You can stream video with have 30 tabs open in Safari and only use 4.6GB of UM on an M1 Mac. I just verified for you.

Shadywack ,
@Shadywack@lemmy.world avatar

ā€œYour powers are quaint, you must be popular with the childrenā€

disguy_ovahea ,

Thatā€™s on my M1 Mac Mini that I use as a server. I use an M2 with 16GB of UM for FCP, PS, and Logic Pro.

tahoe , (edited )

To be fair I had an 8Gb M1 Mac mini for about a year and never even once felt like it was lacking memory. I could open as many things as I wanted and it didnā€™t slow down, so I can kinda see where they were going with this. Not saying it makes that situation much better though.

I think the current base iPhones with 4Gb or 6Gb suffer way more from lack of memory than the 8Gb Macs, and people arenā€™t taking about this enough.

datavoid ,

I needed a cheap laptop for audio, so i decided to pick up a second hand m1 air a couple months ago.

It is honestly pretty impressive for the price, I generally donā€™t have issues either. Everything is snappy, and it handles multitasking fine. Its even faster than my $2000+ PC at several things, which frustrates me greatly.

Howeverā€¦ When running ableton live (or presumably anything that involves heavy image, video, or audio editing), 8gb of ram is honestly not enough. If you push it too hard, it hangs for a second, then the offending app will just close.

Also there is a weird delay in factorio, absolutely unacceptable.

natebluehooves ,

Yeah, audio and video workloads really need the ram. The base model is fine for content consumption though.

pineapplelover ,

A 2k pc can game. You canā€™t really game on mac

umbrella ,
@umbrella@lemmy.ml avatar

faster than my $2000+ PC

tell me you run windows without telling me you run windows

dependencyinjection ,

Linux till I die, am I right.

This place is yawn at times.

datavoid ,

Ya itā€™s kind of silly.

I dual boot if you were concerned

umbrella , (edited )
@umbrella@lemmy.ml avatar

yes, actually. windows could be nice if they let us remove all the bullshit, but since they dont, you get a slow 2k pc.

still beats me how this is acceptable and windows users even hate to hear it, but it is what it is i guess.

olympicyes ,

You didnā€™t even ask which several things OP was referring to.

olympicyes ,

Base 8GB MacBooks also tend to have base storage, meaning a single NVMe controller instead of dual. If youā€™re relying on virtual memory then it would make sense to get the Mac that has double the SSD bandwidth. I bought a base M1 Mac Mini for the kids and itā€™s pretty good for their needs, but they tend to prefer the old i3 win 10 PC connected to the same monitor. The M1 Mini could run Intel Civ 6 faster than my 32GB i7 MacBook Pro could, which surprised me.

TheProtector0034 ,

I have a old HP Elitebook with 8GB ram with Windows 10 and even on Windows I donā€™t notice slowdowns for daily tasks. Yes the machine swaps but because of the SSD you donā€™t notice much performance decrease. However, because itā€™s constant swapping the lifetime of the SSD will decrease and thatā€™s exactly the problem of 8GB machines these days. Yes the machine stays fast (Windows or OSX it really does not matter) but there is extra load on the SSD.

Donā€™t believe Apple marketing bullshit that 8GB is enough because of the ā€œsuper duper advanced memory managementā€ of OSX. If it really was enough then Apple would not release MacBooks with 16+ GB ram. The only reason that the 8GB MBP still exists is to sell more 16+ GB machines.

billiam0202 ,

I have an old 8GB Toshiba laptop that I threw an SSD into and slapped Pop_OS! on for fun. There are plenty of lightweight Linux distros that can breathe life into older hardware if you want to tinker with them. If nothing else, my old Toshiba is good for just basic Internet usage.

disguy_ovahea ,

People are, just not PC spec heads that like to compare numbers. Practical use is the only real comparison.

olympicyes ,

Some of the YouTubers comparing the new MacBook found that the 16GB Air smoked the 8GB version for creative tasks and rendering, but they found no difference between 16 GB and 24GB. Seems like Apple could up the RAM to 12 GB and see a big improvement.

Crashumbc ,

Actually the opposite is true for a basic spec. like RAM. People may not understand CPU/GPU naming conventions. BUT they understand something simple like 16>8.

They also understand their ā€œold slowā€ PC probably had 8gb and they want to UPGRADE so when they see this ā€œnewā€ mac with same amount of ram they immediately think slow whether it is or notā€¦

ulterno ,
@ulterno@lemmy.kde.social avatar

To be honest, I can still do most of my work on my old Core2Quad 4GB DDR2 PC, when using Linux.
And as long as I setup my swap properly, I can also keep as many Firefox tabs open as I want , as I tend to forget tabs (running out of brain memory) before I run out of RAM.

But I just like my 64GB RAM.

olympicyes ,

Increasing swap on Linux is a great way to save money on cloud servers btw. One nice thing on Mac is that there is no swap file that you need to manage. System handles it transparently. Firefox (and really all modern browsers) require a ridiculous of RAM if you use them like you and I do.

AtariDump ,

Core2Quad?

That thing is a space heater that can do some math.

ulterno ,
@ulterno@lemmy.kde.social avatar

My point being, ā€œI can work on itā€, can be used even on a space heater.
Same for the IBM R52, which I no longer turn on, because a Pi would be better.

gravitas_deficiency ,

The thing you didnā€™t notice is that you significantly decreased the service life of the permanent storage on the device, because it ABSOLUTELY dips into swap far more frequently than models with more memory, and all high-speed SSD technologies that Iā€™m aware of have limited lifetime write capacity before performance and fidelity start to degrade.

The MBPs (MBAs too in my opinion, but thatā€™s more debate as itā€™s the ā€œentry levelā€ laptop) should have a minimum ram config of 16gb. 8gb MBP is honestly a really dumb spec level to purchase anyways - if you want something with that little RAM in laptop form, get the MBA.

tahoe ,

People have proven that this problem was massively exaggerated. I wouldnā€™t be surprised if in 10-15 years the SSDs of the vast majority of these computers will be perfectly fine (but only time will tell)

scorpious ,

To be fair

NO! No fair.

I delivered a season of 4k animations for a network show using Motion, AE, C4D, Ps, AIā€¦all using a base model M1 Mini (8/256), with zero problems.

Of course more would be better, but unless youā€™ve actually used one, itā€™s hard to imagine how well it works. I tried mentioning this in another post, but itā€™s all Apple hate all the way down here

dinckelman ,

Theyā€™ll continue selling these, purely because of two reasons:

  • On an Air, 8gb is the bare minimum that is realistically viable, for people who donā€™t do anything than browse the web, who they can later upsell, when they get a new machine.
  • They can immediately upsell you for every extra memory tier you would need. This makes them a colossal amount of money.

Practically all of us know that the difference between these memory modules is pocket change, when mass produced like this, but for those extra couple cents, they get an extra 100$ from you

golli , (edited )

I think itā€™s mostly to have a price tag that doesnā€™t immediately turn off people.

Yes, Apple is expensive in general, however people are generally fine with paying a premium. But if theyā€™d come at you immediately with the full price for a reasonably specced machine, it would still turn many people away.

Instead they fix you on with a high, but still somewhat reasonable price and then upsell you in steps for everything. Like sure you could buy the 128gb iPhone pro, but then the storage will fill up fast with photos and videos. A great camera system being the huge selling point of the device.

On a side note I actually find the 256gb non upgradeable/replaceable ssd much more egregious, than the 8gb RAM.

As you say, for people with basic needs (and that is actually a quite large group), it is enough for daily use. Those people just browse the Web, view photos and write short documents in word. However especially if they have an iPhone and take lots of picture/videos, they will still fill up that storage fast. And then it gets really frustrating, unless you maybe pay even more to outsource everything to the icloud and pay monthly.

dinckelman ,

Thatā€™s just the reality weā€™re in now. All components will eventually ship as a single bundle, and thereā€™s nothing youā€™d be able to do. Obviously there are speed and latency benefits to this, but it comes at a cost of a colossal amount of e-waste with hardcoded serial numbers. This only works in their favor, because the groups of people youā€™ve described will just return to the shop, and buy a more expensive model

towerful ,

The low ram and storage are to drive you up 2 tiers.
By the time you go ā€œ256gb isnā€™t enough storage, so Iā€™ll pay 10% more for something useableā€, you are pretty much at the stage of ā€œif Iā€™m spending this much, I might as well get the ram upgrade as wellā€. And suddenly you are paying $500 more.

golli , (edited )

Exactly my point. Not sure if there is a better term, but in some way it is a bait-and-switch tactic.

With the ā€œstarting atā€ sticker price of the lowest configuration they get you into the mindset of wanting (and being able to afford) their premium device. And then once you are mentally commited they itā€™s the choice between spending even more or compromising on a premium device (where you really should have to).

sushibowl ,

Practically all of us know that the difference between these memory modules is pocket change, when mass produced like this, but for those extra couple cents, they get an extra 100$ from you

This is called capturing consumer surplus through segmentation. Thereā€™s a pretty good explanation of it here.

The long and short of it is that some people are just perfectly fine spending more money on a macbook, and apple wants to give them a good enough excuse to do so.

woelkchen ,
@woelkchen@lemmy.world avatar

On an Air, 8gb is the bare minimum that is realistically viable, for people who donā€™t do anything than browse the web

Thanks to the modern web, web browsing of one of the most RAM intensive tasks. Add a few Electron based apps and youā€™re in hell.

Matriks404 ,

For browsing the web 4 GB is enough, unless you do some multitasking. Still I wouldnā€™t buy a computer with less than 8 GB of RAM nowadays.

woelkchen ,
@woelkchen@lemmy.world avatar

For browsing the web 4 GB is enough, unless you do some multitasking.

Multitasking = more than one tab and the background tabs not immediately put to sleep.

COASTER1921 ,

When they charge many $100s for an extra 8gb the value of the bare minimum 8gb doesnā€™t look so terrible (if only comparing to Apple). Especially considering the performance of swap on a fast SSD.

cmnybo ,

An extra $100 takes you from 8GB to 64GB on a PC if you install it yourself.

ripcord ,
@ripcord@lemmy.world avatar

If you have a laptop that supports that, yeah. Which you should, but definitely isnā€™t always true.

Used to be true on Macsā€¦good olā€™ days

olympicyes ,

That seems too cheap.

a_wild_mimic_appears ,

not by much; here in central europe a 2 module 64gb kit costs about 125ā‚¬ (~135$ incl. VAT). not the greatest timings, but very much faster than the swapfile.

olympicyes ,

I do wish Apple had dimm slots for ā€œslowā€ ram just to get the numbers up. IMO the 8GB model isnā€™t a serious offer and is to be ignored by anyone who tells the difference. That said, If I had only $200 for upgrades on a Mac Iā€™d spend it on ssd. I had a 32/512 MacBook and I wish Iā€™d paid up for 1TB. 16/1TB wouldā€™ve been more useful.

gravitas_deficiency ,

8 is fine for a tablet.

8 is not fine for a brand-fucking new state of the art laptop.

OneOrTheOtherDontAskMe ,

ā€œWith an apple silicon architecture, 8gb is like 16gbā€ -some stupid apple flunkey

T156 ,

The irony is that itā€™s arguably the opposite, since the GPU and CPU just have a shared memory pool, rather than having dedicated memory and the shared memory pool.

So if youā€™re watching a 4k video, you might have lost a gigabyte or two just for VRAM.

echodot ,

Itā€™s because they think that people only do one thing at a time.

arin ,

New feature turns off the screen to flush graphics memory so the cpu can process data.

Darkenfolk ,

The ā€œtouch grassā€ mode.

whereisk ,

They certainly donā€™t want to connect more than one external screen, just ask Tim Apple

n3m37h ,

That was just after face planting in a Scarface size pile of cocaine as is standard procedure with all apple marketing teams

echodot ,

Itā€™s not even enough for a tablet and apple know it, which is why the iPad Pro has 16GB of RAM

Landslide7648 ,

My iPad has 3GB RAM and honestly thatā€™s enough. I donā€™t know what you do on your tablet, but for my everyday activities I have never felt limited

gravitas_deficiency ,

Weā€™re talking about laptops though. I was just using tablets as a comparison point.

Landslide7648 ,

I replied to the wrong comment

Socsa ,

iPads donā€™t really multitask so it is super easy to hide the low ram with swap.

nomadjoanne ,

Sure or a phone.

EngineerGaming ,
@EngineerGaming@feddit.nl avatar

8 GB is fine for a medium-priced laptop, where you can add more or at least swap out the existing stick for a bigger one if you ever need it.

Grass ,

Itā€™s totally so they can list a really low ā€œstarting atā€ price and then upsell marked up parts in the configurator.

Disclaimer: I didnā€™t read the article and just came in to shit on scummy business practices that I made assumptions about.

jose1324 ,

Your assumption is based and factual

smileyhead ,

8GB of RAM is perfectly usable for basic things, but on a new computer, with that price, non-upgradableā€¦ echā€¦

Dragxito OP ,

Less is more, removing features is a innovation - apple

Rooki ,
@Rooki@lemmy.world avatar

and selling it with an extra apple logo is the newest thing.

billiam0202 ,

removing features is innovation courage.

shalva97 ,

my 3 year old phone has more RAM than that

Hiko0 , (edited )

This is nothing to brag about, when Android needs this to run smoothly, compared to the same performance of a 6 GB RAM iPhone.

Edit: Just look at benchmarks and every day use cases. How exactly has any Android smartphone ever achieved any significant speed gains by using huge amounts of RAM compared to the then-current iPhone model? I agree with the Apple criticism when it comes to computers. When it comes to efficiency of smartphones, Android just seems to have tons of overhead and has always needed significantly more RAM than iPhones while not being faster at all. Maybe we can put the ā€žlook at how edgy I am for not using Apple devicesā€œ aside for a moment.

TheLemming ,

Who let the apple marketing people in here?

Hiko0 ,

I can say that it wasnā€˜t any of the Android edgelords or Linux neckbeards.

homicidalrobot ,

Some of us want to buy tools instead of toys. 4GB was great for the xbox 360 slim. Will it run anything a sane person would get a mac for? Probably not, most mac DAW Iā€™ve used personally are hungry and 4gb is less than the machine I had my last crash filled experience on.

JasonDJ ,

What most people use a Mac for could be just as well handled by a Chromebook and an Apple decal.

At least in the consumer market. Not knocking graphic artists or any other industry that prefers Apple (though Iā€™m still really not sure why, at this point it seems to go back to things that donā€™t apply anymore)

Hiko0 ,

I work with my Mac every day. Itā€˜s not a toy. I chose the platform in the early 2000s because I liked the OS, the far superior app experience across many 3rd party apps and because I like to work with things I like aesthetically. I chose a 32 GB MacBook Pro with M1 Pro and paid for the upgrade. Because I could and because I wanted to (100% tax deduction helped as well). No need for pity or anything.

ChairmanMeow ,
@ChairmanMeow@programming.dev avatar

Android has a garbage collector, meaning it requires an additional 2GB of RAM of overhead to keep things smooth. iPhones run significantly hotter than Androids, and consume more energy to achieve their performance gains.

Itā€™s not true to simply state ā€œone is better than the otherā€. Thereā€™s various metrics in which either one may be better.

Hiko0 ,

Thatā€˜s exactly what I was criticizing. So how is ā€œmore RAM = betterā€œ as an absolute statement right, then?

ChairmanMeow ,
@ChairmanMeow@programming.dev avatar

Well, more RAM will always help. An iPhone with more RAM will allow it to perform better than one with less RAM. Similarly, too little RAM will hamper performance regardless of the device.

Hiko0 ,

Okay. But why is it that Android phones donā€˜t all just have 128 GB of RAM built in, then? Iā€˜m still talking about smartphones only. And there, RAM is completely irrelevant for users unless itā€˜s a necessity for the OS and for apps to run well. This is the case for Android smartphones. This is not the case for iPhones. Because everything you want to do just works, without thinking about RAM. This has been the case since the iPhone X.

But here it seems to be really hard to accept that getting an iPhone is the far superior choice for many people, also for tech savvy people. While others choose an Android smartphone and are happy with that.

And for computers: just accept that itā€˜s plain economy calculus to offer 8 GB RAM as standard because this will lead more buyers to choose an upgrade and pay more than the standard price, instead of accusing Apple to offer this without this plan in mind. Just donā€˜t buy these machines and continue your life as a superior tech being, where companies like Samsung or Dell have the sole purpose to make as little profit as possible.

mojofrododojo ,

jfc this is inane.

thereā€™s this thing called multitasking, you might have heard of it. when you want to open more than one app and use them all at the same time, GUESS WHAT BRIGHT LIGHTS? Takes more memory.

This is the dumbest shit take Iā€™ve ever seen.

Hiko0 , (edited )

Iā€˜m talking about smartphones. Funny that youā€˜d call me bright lights when you even lack the basic skill of reading.

Never had any problems with ā€žmultitaskingā€œ there since the iPhone 5.

mojofrododojo ,

LOL, you think people donā€™t multitask on smart phones and tablets?

oofā€¦ and yes, on android you can have both open on the same screen at the same time. I donā€™t know about fischer price unix, er, aye-aye-aye-osā€¦

nah, didnā€™t misread, youā€™re def the sharpest tool in the spoon drawer.

Hiko0 ,

Sure. I have just never encountered any problems. I used to, to be honest, as mentioned back with the iPhone 4 where Safari tabs were reloading because of the lack of RAM. But Android had its own problems back then, for example with the update policy of most manufacturers leaving my wifeā€˜s Android phone obsolete after only one year.

What exactly do you do? Hook up your smartphone as a desktop replacement with a bulky USB dongle, firing up some CAD software on two 6K displays while rendering an 8K HDR video in the background? People never disappoint creating completely made-up scenarios just to discredit.

Never talked about tablets, so itā€™s reading ā€“ again!

mojofrododojo ,

I mention tablets because itā€™s the same os - iOS or Android - on both. tsk. guess you forgot that point.

or it never occurred to you. bright lights indeed.

Hiko0 ,

You still havenā€˜t come up with a multitasking smartphone use case that an iPhone canā€˜t handle compared to an Android smartphone due to lack of RAM.

mojofrododojo ,

Okay bright lights, sure thing, you stick with your tiny amount of ram and see how that works out in the future. Meanwhile the rest of the world will move on.

Itā€™s funny, though, that ram is a commodity and youā€™re fine with appleā€™s ridiculous upsales, to the point where youā€™ll claim thereā€™s no need. Frankly Iā€™m surprised youā€™re not rocking an OG iphone with that attitude. You do you, keep simping for apple, stay in the 2010s. Aloha, from the future!

Gonna block you now so I donā€™t have to reply to another stupid comment.

Hiko0 ,

The whole world will move on, sure. But I think youā€˜ll stay wound up a little longer as this brain sprain of yours seems to have worn you out quite a bit. I hope, AI may solve this problem for you in the future. I heard loads of RAM help with that.

moon ,

Zero reason why any modern computer should be less then 16gb

A_Random_Idiot ,

Honestly weā€™re kinda edging up to the point where I think 32gb of ram should be the minimum, especially for heavy use cases like games and production jobs.

T156 ,

Even then, 32GB might be cutting it a bit fine for production or professional work.

Regna ,
@Regna@lemmy.world avatar

Yeah, in my work I donā€™t even do a lot of 3D rendering, but 64 GB main RAM and at least 8 GB GPU RAM barely manage to cut it performance wise for the GIS and CAD systems we use.

arin ,

Most heavy games do need 32GB ram. 16GB RAM will overflow to page file and we all run QLC SSDs, itā€™s gonna get corrupt over time being in constant writes.

A_Random_Idiot ,

i havent seen a game (without mods) that required 32gb yet, personally, but its getting close enough to go to 32gb anyway.

Now with mods? Oh boyā€¦Iā€™ve seem games that require 64gb or more of ram with mods.

arin ,

Diablo 4 beta was totally 32GB i literally bought a ram kit from 16gb to 32gb after that experience. Cyberpunk 2077 needs over 16gb, and just that if you like to multitask, watch some YouTube or twitch with discord sharing screen and gaming with your friends during these games will need 32gb to avoid over using page file on 16gb. Maybe 24gb is enough with ddr5 kits if your lighter on multitask or donā€™t play the newer unoptimized games.

A_Random_Idiot ,

I play modded cyberpunk and Iā€™ve never had an issue on 16gb. and I am also a multitasker with multiple windows and other things open and tabbing between them while gaming.

arin ,

Yeah i didnā€™t have an issue but i noticed all my ram used and my total commit was like 31gb everyday which is a bit concerning for my write limited qlc SSD

hahattpro ,

this is a trap to upsell you 16 GB or sell you upgrade

A_Random_Idiot ,

for grossly inflated pricing, in proud apple tradition.

guiguinofake ,

You canā€™t upgrade a Macbookā€™s ram, you need to replace the whole machine

whereisk ,

Itā€™s also a nice way to tax their poorest customers more. A lot of people are keeping their machines way past what apple provides updates for, if the ssd that canā€™t be changed dies (because of constant swapping) faster than what they intended or could keep the machine for, I guess itā€™s too bad for them.

PiratePanPan ,
@PiratePanPan@lemmy.dbzer0.com avatar

> most powerful chip available in a laptop and arguably one of the greatest overall laptops ever

> 8 gb ram

my phone has 12 GB of ram what the fuck is apple on

extremeboredom ,

Itā€™s a strategy to push customers toward the more expensive models. Their markup is massive, itā€™s a blatant profit move.

johannesvanderwhales ,

Theyā€™ve being doing this for a very long time, and they do it on all their idevices too (with storage).

mojofrododojo ,

And, since the ram is soldered to the fucking mobo, you canā€™t upgrade it yourself. Itā€™s a ridiculous and craven strategy for a company already nickel and diming their customers.

but the cultists still love them.

nomadjoanne ,

Their silicon is really good. Iā€™d argue it is mostly because they have a node advantage but it is what it is.

But especially in the MacBook Air it can only really show off its stuff in the short-bursty workloads of casual users (and Geekbench). My four-year-old PC would pull ahead quite quickly on any task when you actually have to run it at load for a while.

aard ,
@aard@kyu.de avatar

It also is perfectly fine for running a few minute long compile cycles - without running into thermal throttling. I guess if you do some hour long stuff it might eventually become an issue - but generally the CPUs available in the Airs seem to be perfectly fine with passive cooling even for longer peak loads. Definitely usable as a developer machine, though, if you can live with the low memory (16GB for the M1, which I have).

I bought some Apple hardware for a customer project - which was pretty much first time seriously touching Apple stuff since the 90s, as iā€™m not much of a friend of them - and was pretty surprised about performance as well as lack of heat. That thing is now running Linux, and it made me replace my aging Thinkpad x230 with a Macbook Pro - where active cooling clearly is required, but you also get a lot of performance out of it.

The real big thing is that they managed to scale power usage nicely over the complete load range. For the Max/Ultra variants you get comparable performance (and power draw/heat) on high load to the top Ryzen mobile CPUs - but for low load you still get a responsive system at significantly less power draw than the Ryzens.

Intel is playing a completely different game - they did manage to catch up a bit, but generally are still running hot, and are power hogs. Currently itā€™s just a race between Apple and AMD - and AMD is gimped by nobody building proper notebooks with their CPUs. Prices Apple is charging for RAM and SSDs are insane, though - they do get additional performance out of their design (unlike pretty much all x86 notebooks, where soldered RAM will offer the same throughput as a socketed on), but having a M.2 slot for a lower speed extra SSD would be very welcome.

pycorax ,

The incoming Snapdragon Elite chips should make for an interesting change to the laptop landscape.

aard ,
@aard@kyu.de avatar

Not entirely sure about that. I have a bunch of systems with the current 8cx, and thatā€™s pretty much 10 years behind Apple performance wise, while being similar in heat and power consumed. It is perfectly fine for the average office and webbrowsing workload, though - a 10 year old mobile i7 still is an acceptable CPU for that nowadays, the more problematic areas of IO speed are better with the Snapdragon. (Thatā€™s also the reason why Apple is getting away with that 8GB thing - the performance impact caused by that still keeps a usable system for the average user. The lie is not that it doesnā€™t work - the lie is that it doesnā€™t have an impact).

From the articles I see about the Snapdragon Elite it seems to have something like double the multicore performance of the 8cx - which is a nice improvement, but still quite a bit away from catching up to the Apple chips. You could have a large percentage of office workers use them and be happy - but for demanding workloads youā€™d still need to go intel/AMD/Apple. I donā€™t think many companies will go for Windows/Arm when they canā€™t really switch everybody over. Plus, the deployment tools for ARM are not very stable yet - and big parts of what youā€™d need for doing deployments in an organization have just been available for ARM for a few months now (Iā€™ve been waiting for that, but didnā€™t have a time to evaluate if theyā€™re working).

Entropywins ,

My 6 year old CHROMEBOOK has 16gbā€¦

ripcord ,
@ripcord@lemmy.world avatar

My 13 year old MB has 16GB.

It came with 8GB and at some point I spent $50 or so to add another 8GB.

You know, back when upgrading Macs was a thing.

Moreless ,

Ok Gramps, we need to get you to bed now

ripcord ,
@ripcord@lemmy.world avatar

Pretty sad trolling effort

PiratePanPan ,
@PiratePanPan@lemmy.dbzer0.com avatar

Because Chrome takes up 75% of it.

Laugh. I made fun of Chrome.

Entropywins ,

Wamp wamp so true

_sideffect ,

Letā€™s put 100hp in this new apple truck that weighs 9000lbs!

What? Our competitors have 350hp? It doesnā€™t matter! Our 100hp is very efficient and performs just as well!*

*only when compared to light usage and not towing or driving on inclined roads

deranger ,

A more apt analogy would be to use the truck bed size. Horsepower is more akin to the CPU speed.

Most people donā€™t fill their truck bed just like most people donā€™t fill their RAM. Iā€™ve had no issues with my family users who just do typical light laptop tasks on 8GB RAM. I think the memory upgrades need to be much, much cheaper, but 8GB works absolutely fine IME. I would like 16GB but itā€™d be a waste for the other users in my household.

_sideffect ,

Youā€™re in the minority actually.

Why buy an overpriced Mac and not use it to its full potential?

Just for the logo on the back?

deranger ,

How do you know Iā€™m in the minority when I didnā€™t say how I use my laptop? I donā€™t get it. I do use it to its potential, and thereā€™s no logo on the back. Itā€™s in a case.

Also not overpriced with the base model, which is what I have.

_sideffect ,

You just said you never utilize all of your ram, so itā€™s apparent that you donā€™t heavily utilize your machine

deranger , (edited )

I did not say that. I said Iā€™d actually like 16GB. Itā€™s my family users (normal, non nerds) who have no issue with 8GB RAM and having 30+ tabs and two dozen apps running. Memory management handles multitasking very smoothly, and Iā€™ve not found many apps that are limited by 8GB. Iā€™d like 16 for the few times I edit on laptop, typically I use my desktop.

_sideffect ,

Fine, so why buy them an overpriced Mac if they donā€™t fully utilize it?

My original question is still valid

deranger ,

I disagree itā€™s overpriced. The base model Air at $850 is great, meets their needs, and decreases the amount of family sysadmin tasks Iā€™d have to do for them if they had Windows or Linux laptops.

_sideffect ,

Everyone decides whatā€™s worth it to them, but to me, a sub $400 windows laptop would have been equivalent for your family, as if you know windows you can lock it down for them so they can only use what they need

deranger ,

Sub $400 windows laptops have disgusting trackpads, plastic outer cases, washed out uncalibrated screens, and poor battery life compared to an M1 MBA. Not even remotely an option.

_sideffect ,

No they donā€™t, thatā€™s a very generalist view. But hey, if thatā€™s what you saw for that price, thatā€™s what you saw.

Like I said, everyone pays for what they think is of value to them.

I can live with a plastic case (which Iā€™ve never seen btw), if I know Iā€™m getting it for a much cheaper price

mohammed_alibi ,

Such a weird hill to die on for Apple. How much does it really cost to just add 8GB more RAM? $5?

EarMaster ,

Acknowledging that 8GB only delivers mediocre performance at best would upset anyone who already bought a device with only 8GB. And as later upgrades are not supported by Apple it would abandon these users like buyers of a 1st gen Apple deviceā€¦

Xanxia ,

The fun think is that I donā€™t think apple would mind abandoning these people. Most of them would just buy a new device.

TCB13 ,
@TCB13@lemmy.world avatar

This is just like the iPhone (lack of) storage and the (lack of) SD cards. Apple is trying to maximize profits by using less RAM and by forcing people into buying more hardware in a few years. Apple does a lot of stuff very well but then they also pull this crap.

EdibleFriend ,
@EdibleFriend@lemmy.world avatar

My guess is theyā€™re going to sell like hotcakes to clueless parents whose kids insist their first laptop needs to be apple

KingThrillgore ,
@KingThrillgore@lemmy.ml avatar

Its all on-die not on the board, so Apple gets to charge you more.

ModernRisk ,
@ModernRisk@lemmy.dbzer0.com avatar

I like Apple. Got Apple Watch, AirPods Pro and iPhone. I love the design of MacBooks however I refuse to ever buy MacBooks.

Overpriced like crazy. For half of the price you can get a really great laptop.

Iā€™m honestly even thinking to buy a ā‚¬200 android device to get used to the system.

woelkchen ,
@woelkchen@lemmy.world avatar

Iā€™m honestly even thinking to buy a ā‚¬200 android device to get used to the system.

Donā€™t. Unless itā€™s a slightly older Pixel A-series 2nd hand phone. Manufacturers of cheap Android phones skimp on everything and add bullshit crapware. Shit like that is the cause of many ā€œAndroid sucksā€ comments.

ModernRisk ,
@ModernRisk@lemmy.dbzer0.com avatar

Ohh thatā€™s sad to hear. I was thinking to get the Samsung Galaxy A14.

EddoWagt ,

The A30 and A50 series are fine to be honest, plenty fast for most people. Not sure about the A10 line though

Poem_for_your_sprog ,

Donā€™t the new ones have shit processors?

kusivittula ,

would be a very ecological phone if it had a waste treatment facility built in

Poem_for_your_sprog ,

Apply phone directly to anus.

EddoWagt ,

Theyā€™re okay, nothing to write home about and also not really any better than their predecessors, but they handle day to day tasks just fine

__ghost__ ,

Theyā€™re acceptable for basic productivity but very sluggish if youā€™re coming from a flagship device. Get an S10 series if youā€™re looking for something cheap and Samsung

golli ,

Honestly imo 200ā‚¬ phones are allright, but you do get what you pay. And the A14 at least here in Germany starts at like 120ā‚¬, which is substantially below 200ā‚¬. So if you get it and end up comparing it to an iphone, then it most certainly will look lackluster.

I would say that the sweet spot is probably in the 300-350ā‚¬ range. There you have a decent amount of selection and get some really solid phones that are good for daily drivers. Like the already mentioned pixel A series that gets you clean software and shoots some of the best pictures. Or the samsung a54/55 that gets you a nice allrounder, which still includes a headphone jack and sd-card slot.

lemmytellyousomething ,

The A series is great to be honest.

Itā€™s the same as the S series, but for people who donā€™t play high end games or live stream or render videos or donā€™t need to record videos in a high quality that I canā€™t even replay on my other devices.

woelkchen ,
@woelkchen@lemmy.world avatar

Samsungs come with excellent Windows support right out of the box, so if Windows is you jam itā€™s a good choice. Not familiar with the A14, though. Would advise against cheap Chinese brands.

xthexder ,
@xthexder@l.sw0.com avatar

Windows support? What does that even mean in the context of a smartphone?

woelkchen ,
@woelkchen@lemmy.world avatar

What does that even mean in the context of a smartphone?

Windows Phone Link has: Shared clipboard, notification sync, media player widget, you can even share the Android screen to Windows and run apps from there. Itā€™s quite nice. The Samsung file manager and photo gallery also support OneDrive, Samsung Mail has Exchange support.

Phone Link overlaps quite a bit with KDE Connect which also works between two Android devices and comes out of the box with Steam Deck which is why I prefer KDE Connect to Phone Link but thatā€™s just me.

deranger ,

I dunno, Iā€™ve got a base model M1 and it feels like one of the best laptops Iā€™ve owned. Overpriced is exactly what I feel it isnā€™t. $1000 for a decent laptop is not bad. Nothing below that price has a good trackpad.

BearOfaTime ,

Lol $1000 for ā€œdecentā€

deranger ,

Beats the $800-1200 PC laptops that I would consider trash based on the trackpad and display. Iā€™ve had it for years now and havenā€™t found myself wanting for anything but dual booting.

cosmicboi ,

Are there any other good ARM laptops?

pr06lefs ,

Thereā€™s the thinkpad x13s. But its pretty slow. Should be snapdragon elite laptops coming out this year tho.

Andromxda ,
@Andromxda@lemmy.dbzer0.com avatar

Iā€™m honestly even thinking to buy a ā‚¬200 android device to get used to the system.

Donā€™t do that, I can tell you from experience: Most of them suck, especially cheap Chinese ones.

The Google Pixel 7a is currently $350 and it will get cheaper when the 8a comes out. The 7a will get security updates until May 2028. If you want to get into mobile device privacy/security, a Pixel is an excellent choice. You can install an alternative operating system called GrapheneOS, itā€™s a much more private and secure, improved version of Android. It doesnā€™t include Google spyware and thus also improves battery life. It also extends your feature updates, by default the 7a would only get feature updates until 2026, but GrapheneOS provides Android feature updates as long as the device gets security updates. That would mean 2 additional years of Android feature updates. I highly recommend it!

UsernameIsTooLon ,

I agree with this. Pixel A series are pretty much the smoothest android experience for cheap. Plus they have a pretty good camera as a bonus. The low end Chinese phones and even the Samsung A series just donā€™t quite do it for me. I think OneUI was made for faster hardware.

justJanne ,

The affordable Sony Xperia 10 series is really good. My new Xperia runs circles around my OG Pixel, costs basically nothing, is waterproof, has upgradable storage and a headphone jack, and besides Apple, Google and Intel, Sony is the only manufacturer that actually has working bluetooth.

kameecoding ,

The best way to have a MacBook is your employer giving you one, but trust me you kinda wont want to work on regular notebooks after experiencing macbook.

ripcord ,
@ripcord@lemmy.world avatar

I donā€™t have one of the ARM ones, and after using Macs for like 20+ years, I barely use the ones I have. But that 16 hour battery life and performance is really nice.

Mac OS X used to wow me in the 2000s and even 2010s; it was definitely why I used Macs. But nothing about it is all that interesting to me anymore, and in some ways itā€™s gotten worse.

PraiseTheSoup ,

Itā€™s weird how you draw the line at MacBooks for being overpriced, considering every other apple device you name dropped is equally overpriced.

PraiseTheSoup ,

My mid-range smartphone from 2022 has 8gb of ram. I paid $250 for it brand new.

hessenjunge ,

Do you have a Kimovil link for this incredible phone?

bruhduh ,
@bruhduh@lemmy.world avatar

Poco x3 pro 8/256, and it have 3.5 jack and microsd slot, i still using one, in fact Iā€™m writing from it right now

ripcord ,
@ripcord@lemmy.world avatar

Yeah, my (sigh) ā€œMotorola Moto G Stylus 5G 2023ā€ has 8GB. And the 3.5 jack. And an actual fingerprint sensor. And I spent $160, although I bought it used.

bruhduh ,
@bruhduh@lemmy.world avatar

Why sigh tho) i always saying that obscure devices have the best peripheral support, no need to buy popular devices because they often skimp on peripherals and overpriced, be proud my man) you have good phone for good money after all

ripcord ,
@ripcord@lemmy.world avatar

Sigh was because I was about to type out that stupid-ass name :)

I like the phone a lot.

PraiseTheSoup ,

That is the phone I was originally referring to, except mine in the 2022 version. And I understand the sigh. I do it every time someone asks me what kind of phone I have.

hessenjunge ,

kimovil.com/ā€¦/where-to-buy-xiaomi-poco-x3-pro-256ā€¦

Listed at $322 currently, meaning you bought it half price or less in ā€˜22. Good purchase!

dukatos ,

Donā€™t forget 120Hz screen. The phone has a great value. I paid mine ā‚¬290 two years ago and I am not replacing it any time soon.

bruhduh ,
@bruhduh@lemmy.world avatar

Even more, kernel source code is available and xda-developers community on device is active, unofficial support gonna be really long term, since 2 years of usage i just swapped battery on mine once, itā€™s truly a long lived phone

PiratePanPan ,
@PiratePanPan@lemmy.dbzer0.com avatar

Overpowered Chinese phones sold at minimal margins my beloved

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