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fubarx ,

I talked to Japanese colleagues about this a lot. The issue isn’t just plain old xenophobia. In a lot of cultures, when someone gets married, there are considerations about marrying ‘the right kind’ for the family. As silly as that might sound to U.S. ‘melting pot’ ears, these could be tribal, economic, linguistic, geographic, class, education, age, gender, and yes, race.

In traditional settings, the elders have to bless that marriage, welcome the person, and ideally have the families mesh together and be on the same page.

Inviting foreigners with vastly different backgrounds on almost all those axes, it’s a pretty tall order to ask everyone to change those attitudes. And saying one family should close their eyes and do it for the sake of the country while their neighbors hold out for a ‘suitable’ match is going to be tough. The demographic ‘time bomb’ has been a known issue since the 80s and people are still resistant to change.

At some point, though, realities catch up.

My bet would be it would take a generational turnover and a few years of popular sitcoms normalizing it.

Alexstarfire ,

So, indirect xenophobia. That’s much better.

cucumber_sandwich ,

Call it cultural inertia if you prefer.

bifurtyper ,

Similar to high turnover rate at major corporations is the justified fear that the current residents will be abandoned by their own government in an attempt to drive economic incentives

Unless the system is built correctly, you could accidentally drive people away because you didn’t build with your citizens best interests in consideration

For example Japan and South Korean (my heritage) has this exact problem still at large as they encourage people to have children yet systems like high working hours in combination with low wages means that people just can’t afford to have children

parpol ,

Why should they? How about we just accept that a shrinking population is the best way to keep the earth sustainable?

Japan sure doesn’t have enough land to sustain everyone without global trade. When that global trade ends in a few years due to global food shortage, Japan is cooked. Better to reduce the population as much as possible until then.

afraid_of_zombies ,

Really into forcing your ideas onto others

parpol ,

Point out where in my message I am forcing my ideas onto others.

afraid_of_zombies ,

Your previous comment. I am sorry that wasn’t clear. Let me know if you need assistance on any other issues.

LarryTheMatador ,

Their bigots will throw a tantrum

Phegan ,

Xenophobia

sxan ,
@sxan@midwest.social avatar

Because people fear having their culture and race replaced by immigrants. Even if they’re not overtly racist, few people wish to become a minority in “their own country.”

The US is famously a melting pot, and yet we still have a bunch of descendants of white immigrants from Europe who fear that South Americans will take over; that Mexican culture will replace good old-fashioned hodge-podge Western European culture. That their language will become less dominant. That they’ll find themselves strangers in their own country.

It’s usually an indistinct fear. It seems obvious from the verbiage in the dog-whistles, but white European immigrant descendants don’t want to become second-class.

Now, if we treated our own minorities well, they wouldn’t be so afraid. They wouldn’t be afraid that they’d be the ones with Hispanic cops kneeling on their necks; or that Hispanic immigrants would be living in giant homes and they’d themselves be the ones having to eak out a living as seasonal workers.

I think it’s not despicable to want to preserve your cultural heritage, your cultural language, and to have your country legislated with the values you grew up with; but people react poorly when they think it’s happening.

What I most despise in the Republicans in the US is that they’re advocating for preserving cultural values that never existed broadly in the US. The closest subculture to what they’re pushing is a return to the Confederate South: religion, and white supremacy. The Confederates got their asses handed to them, but the racist fuckers never gave up their values, most most Americans are blind to what their real agenda is. And they’ve been good insurgents, cleverly taking advantage of weak areas in our democracy to return power to a minority: themselves. It’s been said and it’s true: if America was a true democracy and we selected leaders by popular vote, no Republican under their current platform would ever be president again.

Anyway, getting back to your question: immigrants bring their own culture with them, and very few completely abandon it and adopt the culture and language of their new country. This dilutes the host country’s native culture, and people are afraid of that. In the US, it’s the highest form of hypocrisy, because our native culture displaced the indigenous culture, and now we’re afraid of someone else doing the same to us.

hperrin ,

I agree with everything up until you said “dilutes”. I would argue that immigrant cultures don’t dilute the host country’s culture, they add to it. In other words, the culture that was there still exists in the same amount and in the same “concentration”, and immigrants bring their culture to newly developing areas of the country/state.

Oisteink ,

Its very hard to add more of something else and not have dilution.

Take 1 litre of vodka and add 1 decilitre of water - there will be more fluid but the vodka will be?

ValenThyme ,

framing is important though. Nobody considers a cocktail ‘diluted’ even if that’s technically applicable, the resultant mixture usually improves the beverage.

Oisteink ,

Good - i wish your culture good luck

EldritchFeminity ,

But the fear isn’t so rational. It’s like a fear that the cocktail in your example will replace the original vodka whether they want the cocktail or not, or that the vodka will be so diluted by seltzer that it will functionally cease to exist.

It’s like a fear of gentrification of the country as a whole.

It’s also important to remember that the US is a huge exception in this regard as well. Most other countries are like 90%+ native population, and immigrant populations tend to be sort of isolated from the wider national culture due to things like language barriers, and they often set up little “bastions” of their native culture locally wherever they live. We even see plenty of that in the US as well. While there are many distinctly US cultures across the country that are derived from a variety of backgrounds, there are tons of “enclaves” of European culture that make it blatantly clear where immigrants from certain countries settled. In Boston, the culture of Chinatown is distinctly unique and separate from the wider culture of the city, which largely has ties back to Ireland (and is very proud of it). And both of those are distinctly different from where the Italian immigrants settled, who effectively have their own districts of cultures descended from Italy regardless of where they immigrated to.

sxan ,
@sxan@midwest.social avatar

The word has negative connotations, but I stand by it. I an not saying there result isn’t stronger, but if you extend cultural mixing out to the maximum - say humans and the planet survives another thousand years, and global travel is no harder than traveling to the next town over - what you end up with is homogeneity, and this would be sad, I think. Imagine it: the entire world speaking some pidgin derivative mashup of Mandarin, English, and Hindi, with essentially the same culture everywhere on the planet. Just as has already happened, languages are lost, because nobody speaks them natively anymore. All that’s left of the original cultures are some UNESCO sites and preserved old movies. I can’t say the world wouldn’t be stronger for it, but in the process, something irrecoverable is lost.

AA5B , (edited )

Definitely agree with your points but maybe “dilutes”. Isn’t the right term. I don’t think they’re worried about their culture being “watered down” or “thinner”, but replaced.

I had a recent conversation with my brother that fits here. We grew up the same, but he became more conservative and moved to a conservative area, or maybe I became more liberal and moved to a liberal area. I’ve been exploring cooking, and actually this has been several conversations where I’m excited over learning about preparing a different cuisine, being able to appreciate what that brings, and he responds with “why can’t you make regular American food?” “Diluting” the cuisine we grew up with would be to use salsa instead of ketchup or mayo. But I have entire meals replaced with new and different. I have a much bigger spice cupboard full of new and different. I make meals that he doesn’t understand, doesn’t know how to prepare, so he gets defensive about what he is comfortable with being replaced

sxan , (edited )
@sxan@midwest.social avatar

I don’t disagree. In fact, I think a strength of US culture is the diversity in embraces. I do feel sorry that this came at the cost of indigenous cultures, but the end result has been a wonderful melting pot, ruined only by Laissez-Faire economics and some badly wrong turns in how we do Capitalism. Plus the inherent bigotry that hypocrite descendants of immigrants are unable to recognize. Or, worse maybe, an attitude of “we stole this land fair and square, and now it’s our’s and everyone else fuck off!”

All I’m saying is that my personal preference would be that this not happen to the entire world. I’d like to visit Germany and see a historic Germany, not another version of America with different preserved buildings. I’d love to visit the Basque region and immerse myself in Basque culture, not some mashup globalized culture selling Basque trinkets, which no-one uses at home anymore, to tourists. It’s selfish, I know.

Edit 2024-07-04 relevant comic

Fedizen ,

The difference is US culture is bland and stupid. Its con artists, police and shitty corporate bullshit. In fact the last time the US lost a major cultural element it was slavery. I think its about time ditch some more bullshit. The con artists need to be tried for fraud, the police need to be disarmed, the supreme court dismantled and the corporations razed.

scytale ,

Because most low birth-rate countries are first-world countries, and they generally want to only accept people who can contribute to their society and not be freeloaders to the social system. This means they need to filter out the people that come in, and being first-world countries, there is no shortage of people trying to get in. Sometimes they want low-skill, not-highly educated people just for the cheap labor, but not the person actually staying permanently, hence temporary worker visas. If a foreigner really wants to stay permanently, they then need to ensure that you are educated, able to support yourself long term, do background security checks, and make sure you agree to integrate as you mentioned in the OP.

bradorsomething ,

Ah, your post history tells me you’re in texas, that explains your post. I understand your concern about immigrants coming into a country without proper verification, swarming across the land and replacing the actual native population. Such populations usually move in and immediately assume the land is theirs, and do their best to forget the legacy of the original native people. We can only hope that arrogance and bigotry becomes less common over time.

scytale , (edited )

You understand wrong. I am an immigrant myself and literally experienced what I said. I merely recounted my own experience and the hoops I had to go through to be admitted into the country and be allowed to stay permanently. I have first hand experience of what the USCIS requires and checks in order to be granted work visas and the entire lengthy and expensive process to get permanent residency if you’re coming from a third world country. You are literally asked in application forms if you’ve ever applied for government benefits and how much debt you currently have, because that raises flags for them. You also have to prove your skills by showing evidence of the work you’ve done and what special skills or knowledge you have that a local can’t otherwise do. I’ve been denied a visa once just because the consular officer wasn’t convinced that my skills were special enough. It was a long drawn out process just to get admitted in. Oh and you also need to undergo a medical exam because they want to make sure you don’t have any serious issues that can potentially make you a burden to the healthcare system.

So before accusing someone of arrogance and bigotry, make sure you actually know where the person is coming from. I am not against immigration at all. I am merely explaining how the government picks and chooses who to admit into the country through their standard immigration processes. Show me a first world country that doesn’t have those requirements (except for asylum seekers). I’ll wait.

afraid_of_zombies ,

Lot of assumptions in your comment about someone you have not met.

card797 ,

You have to feed and house the people. The people currently living in those countries may have a shortage of housing already.

I think the “baby boom” from years past has shown that there are too many people around. It’s too costly to raise their own kids. People are xenophobic and don’t want many immigrants changing their cultures.

bradorsomething ,

The issue becomes caring for the boom population and maintaining a stable economy at the same time. Immigration is a natural support to the pressure of worker shortages, and countries that don’t accept this will learn long, hard lessons in capitalism, and pay a premium for end of life care to compete with other jobs in demand that are much more desirable.

snooggums ,
@snooggums@midwest.social avatar

Fear of being outnumbered by immigrants (“they shall not replace us” bullshit) is a big one.

atro_city OP ,

"We cannot be outnumbered by immigrants!" die out because their own population won't make babies

givesomefucks ,

Wouldn’t they benefit from more people?

The wealthy win when there’s more workers than work.

Historically the greatest gains in workers rights and the times we make the most gains against wealth inequality is when there isn’t a surplus of workers.

jeena ,
@jeena@piefed.jeena.net avatar

Countries like Korea don't have a cultire of welcoming people from outside and therefor you would have so many clashes that a huge number of imigrants - which is needed - would destroy the country. There is no one here who knows how to treat and integrate those immigrants. There are no programs for them, etc. and even if you know the language you still have huge culture clashes.

june ,
@june@lemmy.dbzer0.com avatar

A lot of eastern Asian countries are extremely xenophobic in other words.

QuarterSwede ,
@QuarterSwede@lemmy.world avatar

I think there’s a difference between being prejudice towards an outside group and not wanting your own culture replaced.

There is nothing inherently wrong with countries and their cultures not wanting to have others integrate. In the past this is what helped them survive.

It’s only a big issue in countries like the US that want to be a mixing bowl/melting pot and also are being xenophobic.

june ,
@june@lemmy.dbzer0.com avatar

Do you understand the difference between integration and immigration?

Yes there is something wrong with not wanting to allow people from other cultures to integrate into your own.

QuarterSwede ,
@QuarterSwede@lemmy.world avatar

We definitely disagree.

june ,
@june@lemmy.dbzer0.com avatar

Because you are xenophobic yourself, yes.

QuarterSwede ,
@QuarterSwede@lemmy.world avatar

That’s a weak argument. Just because I bring up another point of view doesn’t mean I subscribe to the view mentioned, which I don’t.

If a country doesn’t want to allow immigration then that’s perfectly moral. It may eventually kill their culture off in the long run but it’s not xenophobic by definition.

If a country does allow immigration and then is prejudice towards a group coming in then absolutely that’s xenophobic.

june , (edited )
@june@lemmy.dbzer0.com avatar

Backtrack if you want, but what you said was xenophobic by definition and I’m not going to bother arguing semantics.

Edit: I like how you completely changed your comment after I replied. Very cool

jeena ,
@jeena@piefed.jeena.net avatar

I mean to some degree yes, but as I said they are absolutely not prepared for it and have no one who could do the work of preparation of integration of migrants.

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