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CorruptBuddha ,

Cool data point, but 7% doesn’t feel significant to me.

ZeroCool OP , (edited )

Cool data point, but 7% doesn’t feel significant to me

Probably because you’re not a woman that may need CPR one day. It’s easy to dismiss things that won’t ever effect you.

CorruptBuddha ,

Probably because 7% is a small ass number. Give me a 7% statistic about nonbinaries, and we’ll see how many fucks I think it’s worth.

systemglitch ,

No way I help a woman in that situation. Zero chance unless I already know them well. not casually well, they have to know mebin return. So basically family and nothing further.

I know CPR.

Reap what you sow society.

I had a woman ask me to get I her car to figure out why it wasn’t starting for her one time, this isn’t even close to CPR and that feeling of dread hit me and I refused. No way I’m putting myself in even greater danger.

I know the reality is thing will likely be fine in both situations. Then I remember multiple women telling lies in my life, accusing me of things I never did.

I had to go to court and has her admit on stand she lied. I almost went to jail and she got off Scott free. That isn’t justice.

With how much more weight women’s voices get and how much favourably the justice system views women compared to men. Yeah no, fuck that, I will not put myself in a situation where a woman can tell another lie to ruin another life.

ZeroCool OP ,

lol @ these ridiculous fever dreams of an incel. We both know none of that ever happened.

systemglitch ,

Okay.

Alwaysfallingupyup ,

did it to themselves by punishing men who shouldnt be punished because to push an agenda to much

ZeroCool OP , (edited )

I cannot imagine hating anything as much as you incels hate women. Pathetic.

CharlesDarwin ,
@CharlesDarwin@lemmy.world avatar

Honestly, I don’t find it all that surprising. Men are wise to err on the side of caution when it comes to even the appearance of improper behavior and I could see how many might freeze up in such a situation, even if they knew CPR.

I remember a woman talking about how some kids were running around naked near their house and he had to call her, and she was kind of grumbling about how he wouldn’t just handle it himself. I had to explain that I would have done exactly the same. There is no WAY as an adult male I’d be accosting underage naked children and asking where their parents were, etc., unless they were in danger of freezing or other dangers. This woman was acting like her husband was being lazy and/or a wuss. He was just using his head.

Hazdaz ,

You can thank our society for this bullshit. It is because we put women on a pedestal in our society and men have been relegated to being the butt of jokes or the quiet backbones of the working class who have no right to complain, and if they dare not fit into those two categories, they are then accused of toxic masculinity or something similar.

Dkarma ,

This comes out of puritanical sexual shame and nothing more. Religion poisoned people’s minds regarding sexuality.

pyromaniac_donkey ,

Id prefer not to tbh.

Seditious_Delicious ,
@Seditious_Delicious@lemmy.world avatar

deleted_by_moderator

    •
    Cringe2793 ,

    Of course, because the people trained in CPR are generally men. And men aren’t gonna risk getting accused of SA by helping a woman. It’s just too risky. What’s the point?

    STRIKINGdebate2 ,
    @STRIKINGdebate2@lemmy.world avatar

    Having a one in 4 chance that you won’t get CPR If you collapse in public is a disturbing statistic.

    thepianistfroggollum ,

    The bystander effect is a real bitch.

    chiliedogg ,

    And only 19% of people who do get CPR survive long enough to go home.

    ClassicCarPhenatic ,

    *who need CPR

    Lot of people get CPR when in reality they’re dehydrated, ODing, or something similar

    tryharder ,

    Lot of people get CPR when in reality they’re dehydrated, ODing, or something similar

    If you don’t have Narcan on hand, and they’re not breathing, rescue breathing might keep them alive until the EMTs come. If they don’t have a heartbeat, chest compressions might keep them alive until the EMTs come. CPR’s rate of success isn’t great in most circumstances, but it’s much better than nothing. No pulse, no breathing, their chance of death by the time EMTs arrive is essentially 100% without CPR.

    ziggurat ,

    I didn’t care about this statistic when my daughter needed cpr

    While panicking I didn’t know what do do but call the emergency services, I screamed in terror into the phone, they were trained and instructed me and the wife to do what we needed to do until the ambulance came. My eyes get teary and my gut gets cold even writing this. My daughter survived and is as healthy as can be now.

    This is even when my wife is an trained nurse that would have been able to handle the situation if it was not our daughter.

    Nothing could have prepared us on how to handle the situation if we couldn’t call emergency services

    disconnectikacio ,

    deleted_by_moderator

    •
    answersplease77 ,

    I live in a very strict and conservative country and once a young girl passed out in front of everyone. Her sister was panicking screaming at her to try to breath. I’m usually a savior vigilante type of guy whenever and wherever the situation but sadly at that time I was wearing shorts. So my immediate reaction was to nope out and pretend I didn’t see anything. They had to bring another woman who was working close by to do CPR and resuscitate her. The girl then survived obviously. I later had feelings of guilt that I did not step in to help, but in the same time I could’ve been jailed for touching her and worse get beaten by everyone there. what an awful dilemma …

    SpaceNoodle ,

    Was it illegal there to touch a woman while wearing shorts?

    qarbone ,

    I believe it’s more the fear of looking informal or unprofessional. Without more formal clothes, he was afraid of looking like a random chancer copping a feel instead of someone trying to save a life. Pretty silly in retrospect but definitely a possible fear in the moment.

    Obi ,
    @Obi@sopuli.xyz avatar

    I don’t know why but my brain went the direction of “it’s harder to hide a random boner in shorts” but don’t ask me why my brain is fucked that way.

    bobman ,

    It’s not you. Saying ‘wearing shorts’ is why you didn’t give CPR is fucking stupid.

    I_Fart_Glitter ,

    He said he could have been jailed or beaten for touching her. The shorts probably just made the situation worse.

    Daqu ,

    Just take the shorts off before helping

    dingleberry ,

    52% versus 55%. 61% vs 68% in public places. Not a lot of difference, within margin of error even.

    FauxPseudo ,
    @FauxPseudo@lemmy.world avatar

    This isn’t a pole. This isn’t self reported numbers. Those are real life numbers

    ChewTiger ,

    Pretty much all data has margins of error, including “real life data”. The margin of error just often doesn’t matter.

    Default_Defect ,
    @Default_Defect@midwest.social avatar

    But is it a poll?

    WoahWoah ,

    It is still a sample, which is therefore subject to a margin of error. Unless you think this data accounts for all CPR given anywhere to anyone, ever.

    For example, if they’d only sampled one man and one woman, and the man reported receiving CPR and the woman reported not, the “study” would show 100% of men and 0% of women receive CPR. Staggering “real-life numbers”!

    DeadDjembe ,

    All of science is just a sample. Population trends can be observed in smaller subsets.

    WoahWoah ,

    I’m aware. My point is that “real life numbers” still have margins of error. The person to whom I’m responding implied that “real life numbers” aren’t subject to a margin of error.

    thepianistfroggollum ,

    It doesn’t matter, a margin of error exists regardless of the data source.

    Aceticon ,

    To add to your point with a very clear example: If I did a study to check the average age of people in a country where I mainly checked the age of people living in retirement homes, the margin of error would be huge even if I got the age from hundreds of thousands of people.

    In more general terms: there can be systemic errors due to methodology that no increasing of the number of samples will remove.

    thepianistfroggollum ,

    Thank you, that’s an important point to make. There’s this belief that big samples are more relevant than small samples, but that is far from the truth.

    The methodology is what’s vital to the data’s significance.

    snek_boi ,

    What do you mean by “margin of error”?

    June ,

    en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Margin_of_error

    ledtasso , (edited )

    The sample size was in the tens of thousands (39K total cases according to the original EUSEM article) so I’d be surprised if there is no real difference.

    thepianistfroggollum ,

    Having a larger sample size doesn’t necessarily decrease the margin of error. It’s impossible to say if the difference is statistically significant without crunching the numbers.

    BearOfaTime ,

    Meh… Even without seeing the data collection methodology, or the analysis, I’m calling shenanigans. Thats an almost non-existent difference - how do we know the cases where women didn’t get support are primarily women-only spaces (say women’s gym, yoga, etc)?

    Someone’s using this slight difference to push a narrative.

    Ghostalmedia ,
    @Ghostalmedia@lemmy.world avatar

    Not surprising. This aligns with other studies around women and cardiac problems. People have a bias toward identifying the symptoms that men show, and women often have a tendency to display different symptoms.

    Aqarius ,

    I… don’t think that’s the reason why people would avoid specifically CPR, specifically in a public place.

    MBM ,

    “I have asked people this question on my own, and I’ve been told by some that they don’t know where the [anatomical] landmarks for CPR are due to women having breasts,” Dr. Nicole McAllister, clinical assistant professor of emergency medicine at the Ohio State University Wexner Medical Center, tells Yahoo Life.

    Many people who receive CPR training practice on flat-chested mannequins and learn that CPR should be performed across the breastbone and nipple line, she says. “Because people think of doing CPR in terms of a male-form dummy, some of this doesn’t translate well and they don’t feel comfortable doing it in the right spot,” McAllister says.

    From the article. There’s also an expert that bring up your reason, and there are some more explanations given (people don’t realise it when a woman has a heart attack, people are afraid of hurting the woman)

    Murvel ,

    I think more likely, this is what he was referring to:

    But there are likely other issues at play too, women’s health expert Dr. Jennifer Wider, tells Yahoo Life. “One reason is a fear of touching another person without consent, especially a woman — this may discourage a bystander to administer CPR to a woman,” she says. (This reason came up in 2021 research conducted by the American Heart Association — people reported that they were not comfortable giving CPR over fear of sexual accusations or inappropriate touching.)

    MBM ,

    Yes, I mentioned that in my second sentence. The commenter was implying that it’s the only reason, though.

    Astroturfed ,

    Woman get a bake shake from the healthcare system, but I think this is more about tits and people being afraid of touching them to do CPR…

    SpaceNoodle ,

    *shake’n’bake

    lobsticle ,

    Bystander: She’s apneic and has no pulse! I’m beginning CPR!

    Commences compressions

    Patient: Uh actually I have a boyfriend

    1847953620 ,

    Super facts

    mycorrhiza ,

    I think the average person can tell what’s going on if they see someone prone on the ground and someone doing chest compressions.

    JeeBaiChow ,

    I used to think the same. Then trump happened.

    Cringe2793 ,

    You would think that, right? But no. If you’re a guy, you automatically think of all the ways you can get accused of SA, even when you’re genuinely trying to help. So most guys just don’t. It’s not worth the risk.

    MadBob ,

    What country’s this? Shithole as it is in other ways, in the UK you can’t be prosecuted or sued for basically anything if you’re resuscitating someone.

    Aceticon ,

    I would love to live in that universe of yours were the average person is well informed and rational.

    AeonFelis ,

    Think of how stupid the average person is, and realize half of them are stupider than that.

    Kusimulkku ,

    “I was trying to save your life.”

    “Ugh are you still talking to me?”

    oatscoop ,

    Conversely, we had a call for a woman passed out in a car called in by a bystander. We arrived and she was still seated in the car, with a man doing one-armed compressions on her chest. It looked bad … until we got closer and saw she was both awake and speaking normally to her “savior”, and his CPR was on the level of “movie CPR”.

    We figured he would stop on his own once he realized she was awake: he didn’t. We figured she would in some way indicated he needed to stop, or at least react adversely in any way to the man pushing (weakly) on her chest … she didn’t. We had to tell him to stop.

    To his credit I think he just saw someone down and got tunnel vision. Based on his face the realization of how absurd it was hit a few seconds later.

    RGB3x3 ,

    In order to use a defibrillator, you have to remove everything from a person’s chest. This includes the bra and to even shave chest hair to be able to apply the pads correctly.

    I’ve always thought that it would be troublesome for a man to have to apply a defibrillator to a woman if someone assumes foul play because of their own issues.

    Life over dignity in that situation, everyone else be damned.

    Kolanaki ,
    @Kolanaki@yiffit.net avatar

    If I saw someone with a defibrillator ripping the clothes off an unconscious woman, I don’t think I would suspect foul play.

    Notorious_handholder ,

    You might not, but you gotta remember that the public is also filled with idiots

    faintwhenfree ,

    While my cousin’s neighbor is fighting a law suit because, a woman (cousin’s neighbor) used defibrillator on another woman(when her heart stopped) , and other woman is now suing the neighbor for some minor marks from defibrillator. Mostly neighbor will win the case, but she has to appear in court now. Makes me feel so angry and i don’t even know the neighbor lady.

    funkless_eck ,

    in these cases sometimes the insurance makes you sue even if you don’t want to because otherwise they won’t pay for any of the debt

    My colleague has a situation where he’s being sued by his neighbor for minor burns after a firework accident a few years ago 4th of July. The neighbor doesn’t want to sue him but has no choice to get the medical services paid for.

    Chreutz ,

    That is so ridiculous…

    captain_aggravated ,
    @captain_aggravated@sh.itjust.works avatar

    I wonder if judges could be persuaded to levy punitive damages against the insurance company for this kind of thing. “Your honor, we’re only wasting your time with this because the insurance company is making us sue. Could you confiscate a few hundred million dollars from them for this worthless harassment?”

    PickTheStick ,

    At least in America, all the judges are either in the pocket of the businesses or have their hands tied by laws passed by legislators who are in the pocket of businesses. Fuck them businesses.

    GoofSchmoofer ,
    @GoofSchmoofer@lemmy.world avatar

    The ultimate goal with insurance companies is to have you give them money and they never have to give you anything in return. If they can get you to sue the other person, the insurance company doesn’t have to pay. To them it’s a win-win.

    Weakly regulated insurance is a scam

    Chetzemoka ,

    And you have to remember that there’s a difference between what some random idiot on the street thinks and what someone can actually be prosecuted for.

    Jesus Christ, do the fucking CPR

    Obi ,
    @Obi@sopuli.xyz avatar

    Surely there are good Samaritan laws even in the US?

    PickTheStick ,

    There are, but remember that defenses come into play after being sued. So you can still go through the mental nightmare (because let’s be real, a rich person isn’t going to be doing CPR, and certainly isn’t going to care about being sued, so only your typical person who could lose everything in this scenario) of being a defendant in a lawsuit until the judge agrees to toss it or you go to court and are found not liable.

    Cringe2793 ,

    The public scrutiny and the mark on your record does not go away even if you’re found not liable. Once you are even accused of anything like this, it’s there forever. People will think you got off on a “technicality”.

    If you’re a man facing this, your life is ruined. May as well move away and never come back.

    Patches , (edited )

    The court of public opinion, and cancel culture, do not care about good Samaritan laws.

    News that destroys reputations can spread faster and further than the truth. Most people still think the McDonalds coffee lady is a gold digger after 20 years of corrections.

    Meowoem ,

    I agree do the CPR but my fear would be getting kicked in the head not sued

    Notorious_handholder ,

    Never said I wouldn’t do the CPR. Only pointing out that in an emergency situation that people are fucking stupid and that a random idiot could easily interfere violently with what they think might be sexual assault

    Kusimulkku ,

    It’s not just about being prosecuted, but publicly judged and shamed for.

    circuscritic , (edited )

    Which is why all the most clever rapists carry defibs.

    If you EVER see a man carrying a defibrillator, 9 of 10 times, he’s a rapist.

    What’s worse, the extra super clever ones, ride around in ambulances with disguises to make them look like paramedics.

    Whenever I see a rapist mobile with flashing lights, I run them off the road.

    I’ve saved at least a dozen women already this year.

    CADmonkey ,

    To be fair there are rapist mobiles and they do have flashing lights, they just don’t say “Ambulance” on them.

    Kusimulkku ,

    I could imagine someone thinking “wow he took her bra off, that was unnecessary”. Since correct defib use isn’t really common knowledge

    clay_pidgin ,

    I just did red cross CPR and AED training last week, and the materials said the clothes all need to come off (or pulled up or whatever - off the chest) but chest hair doesn’t need to be shaved. Presumably the instructions change periodically.

    cybersandwich ,

    Its probably much better to have a shaved chest, but lets be realistic. In a situation where CPR and an AED are being used, 1. you probably arent going to have a razor handy 2. the sub-optimal contact with the skin is the least of you (or the patient’s) worries.

    skiguy0123 ,

    I took a course a couple of years agao and I believe they said the AEDs come with a razor

    kilodelta ,

    Can confirm. Almost all defibrillators come with a pack of additional supplies - including a dry razor

    HewlandRower ,

    They also teach now to use the provided additional set of pads to basically wax the chest.

    oatscoop ,

    It’s only an issue on very hairy chests – i.e. full “bearskin rug” where you need to place the pads. There are patients that have so much hair the pads aren’t even touching skin.

    In which case you absolutely need to remove the hair. A slightly delayed initial defibrillation is better than multiple ineffective ones. Most AED kits should have a spare set of pads (“wax the chest” with the first set) or a disposable razor.

    TommySalami ,

    You’re not going to take time to shave, every second counts. The solution is the extra adhesive pads most every AED has. You plant one of those on the the chest hair and rip, and you can get an effectively hairless spot for your lead.

    thepianistfroggollum ,

    Dry shaving a hairy spot takes like 5 seconds. We’re not talking about whipping out a hot towel and a straight razor.

    PickTheStick ,

    The instructions say that chest hair comes off if the pad isn’t sticking effectively to the chest. That means shaving if you have a razor, or using the second adhesives (kid/adult sizes usually come in the same AED kit) as ad hoc waxing devices.

    Misconduct ,

    Imagine dying because some old puritan assholes decided at some point that female nips are inherently offensive but male nips are fine. Humanity can be so idiotic sometimes

    Jax ,

    Yeah that wouldn’t be what prevents a man from giving a woman CPR. It would be the potential for someone to cry foul play.

    NotSoCoolWhip ,

    No, they decided both were bad. It wasn’t until 1935 that male nips were legal to open-carry

    Fapp ,

    Nah, some random persons life is not worth my freedom.

    ReluctantMuskrat ,

    And that random person may someday be your daughter, and the bystanders some other men who agree with you.

    Fapp ,

    Doubtful. I recognize the world is a shitty place so I had a surgery to prevent me from bringing more people into it.

    To be clear, because somehow this was lost in translation, I wish it was as cut and dry as giving CPR to someone who needs it. But the world, again, is a shitty place.

    thepianistfroggollum ,

    I’m not sure why you think your freedom would be in jeopardy for providing CPR

    Cringe2793 ,

    Because you could get accused of SA.

    thepianistfroggollum ,

    Not realistically, no. Good Samaritan laws exist, and if you do CPR properly there’s a 0% chance that it wouldn’t be clearly obvious.

    When you do CPR right, you will break ribs off the sternum (unless it’s a child).

    Cringe2793 ,

    If you really think there’s a 0% chance then you’re either delusional or willfully ignorant.

    answersplease77 ,

    It does not have to be life over dignity. There can be a middle ground they could at least provide a cover while doing their thing. I know a teen girl who changed school, did therapy and tried to sue because she once had a seizure and they stripped her naked in front everyone to save her. Her “friends” took video of her and spread it all over their school. As awful as it sounds I’m not making this up.

    Obi ,
    @Obi@sopuli.xyz avatar

    Fuck the other kids for taking and sharing videos, people suck.

    MedicPigBabySaver ,

    Bullshit

    Cringe2793 ,

    Yup, and that’s exactly why men don’t help. They tried to save her, but got sued. It’s really not worth it.

    Turun ,

    I’d expect the people who shared footage to be sued, not the first responders.

    Angry_Maple ,
    @Angry_Maple@sh.itjust.works avatar

    Why does almost no one clear the area in these posted experiences? That was covered in my (very) basic first aid training. It was emphasized, and it came with a heavy reminder that patient care should be a very high priority. I’m honestly just suprised to read all of these.

    Y’all need better trainers and better Good Samaritan laws to protect you. What a world where someone just dies when they could have been saved by someone who was already nearby. Society sucks. Neither “angle” is great.

    Cringe2793 ,

    Yup, society sucks. It’s probably selfish of me, but I ain’t saving someone when it’s possible that I get accused of SA. It’s just not worth it. The hassle and the possiblilty of being labelled could affect my future and jobs.

    radioactiveradio ,

    Sounds like a problem for women with chest hair.

    jpreston2005 ,

    you dont have to shave chest hair, wtf are you talking about?

    Okokimup ,
    @Okokimup@lemmy.world avatar

    You don’t have to, but some defibrillator kits include a razor, and when I took a CPR class, we were taught how to remove hair using either a razor or an extra set of defib pads.

    Hiuhokiguess ,

    That’s for excessive hair. Just make sure you both aren’t in a puddle.

    shortly2139 ,

    They’re constantly updating best practices, the kits come with a little razor now. Though we got told to apply the pad on the hair and then pull it off, effectively waxing the area. It’s apparently to get better contact. Personally I think shaving would be more effective, suppose you do what you have to in the situation.

    Mouselemming ,

    Waxing would be faster and if there’s still hair you could shave it. More painful of course but if it wakes them up you can stop there.

    z3rOR0ne ,

    This Radiolab Episode always comes to my mind when people bring up CPR in any context. Apparently doctors overwhelmingly don’t wish to be resuscitated for a good reason…

    krayj ,

    It’s critical to point out the primary scenario associated with the survey and chart data in that article.

    “Given the scenario of irreversable brain injury”.

    That changes everything.

    z3rOR0ne , (edited )

    Oh definitely. 10 minutes max to administer CPR before death is pretty much certain. IIRC, after 3 minutes chances of brain damage rise to 80%.

    Not to mention the 30% chance of painful broken ribs, but hey at least you’re alive with probably a hefty hospital bill, at least in the states.

    I suppose that an addendum should be added to do not resuscitate tags. Do not resuscitate after specified time span. Or something like that.

    bluGill ,

    Do not resuscitate tags are not something i'm trained at reading. If I see them and do CPR anyway I am protected by my states good Samaritan laws. If I see them and do nothing I could be in legal trouble! (Not anymore, but I uses to be on an emergency response team and then I was legally required to get involved). Even paramedics are trained to ignore those tags, once the patient is in the hospital there are procedures to verify if they are valid (as opposed to a murderer planting them I guess)

    z3rOR0ne ,

    Ultimately I’m more in favor of the default response and laws around the subject being what they are. I just question these norms sometimes because I also strongly believe in the right to die.

    This quickly becomes complicated given the contexts of the tragic experiences of those that survive life saving procedures like CPR with a significantly diminished quality of life due to permanent brain damage and other incurred disabilities. At what point does a person who wanted to live given full abilities of their mind and body comes to prefer to die when they no longer possess said cognitive/bodily functions? I honestly wonder.

    Not something anyone who is watching somebody fall to the floor and stop breathing can take the time to contemplate, obviously. But the thought still gives me pause.

    One of my biggest fears, bigger than dying even, is being “forced” to live when my mental faculties are far gone due to irreparable brain damage. And I wonder if it’d be less emotionally traumatic for my loved ones to have to see me like that than if someone trying to save my life had simply called the efforts no longer worth it after a (hopefully) thoughtful assessment.

    I just honestly don’t know, and the thoughts around it do occassionally haunt me when I contemplate my own inevitable demise.

    InternetCitizen2 ,

    Reminds me of a chat I had with a prepped. I basically said that living in a functional society is hard, so I’d rather die quickly in a catastrophic collapse.

    z3rOR0ne ,

    As a person who loves being alive, I can honestly say I’d rather be dead under many different specific hypothetical circumstances.

    My estimation is that you live long enough, you eventually encounter one or many of those circumstances. The right to live as well as the right to die the way you want should never be infringed upon.

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