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Lawyers for megachurch pastor blame 12-year-old for ‘initiating’ sexual contact

Lawyers for Donald Trump’s former faith advisor Robert Morris accused a 12-year-old girl of initiating “inappropriate” sexual conduct with the ex-Dallas megachurch pastor, new documents have revealed.

Morris resigned in June after admitting to the incident. His accuser Cindy Clemishire previously claimed that the pastor had begun abusing her on Christmas Day in 1982.

Clemishire, now 52, said that Morris and his wife had been staying at her family home at the time when he asked her to come into his room, whereafter he told her to lay on his bed and then began touching her inappropriately.

She said the abuse had continued until 1987 when she told her parents.

However, 25 years after the incident, a lawyer for Morris – J Shelby Sharpe – claimed that it was the child who was actually to blame.

DmMacniel ,
@DmMacniel@feddit.org avatar

Objective Morality everyone!

catloaf ,

Even if she did, so what? A 12-year-old cannot consent. The adult cannot engage. This is not a defense.

KoboldCoterie ,
@KoboldCoterie@pawb.social avatar

The fact that this post has a downvote is legitimately worrying to me. I really hope that’s not someone who disagrees with this statement.

DogPeePoo , (edited )

MAGA(t)S gonna MAGA

harrys_balzac ,

I was thinking Libertarian. Could be both.

stoly ,

libertarianism is also where I went. There are some people who think contrary to whatever appears in front of them, however.

jaybone ,

Are there really any MAGAs on Lemmy? Seems like they wouldn’t bother.

barsquid ,

MAGAs’ core principles are bigotry and oppositional defiant disorder. They have a mental disorder compelling them to make the out-groups angry. So of course they spread to places where people hate them, including Lemmy.

Snowpix ,
@Snowpix@lemmy.ca avatar

lemm.ee has a conservative community that’s full of some of the most dense individuals I’ve seen on here. It’s quite fun watching them twist themselves into knots when faced with dissenting opinions over there.

cygnus ,
@cygnus@lemmy.ca avatar

Whoever downvoted has definitely used the word “ephebophilia” unironically int he past.

andros_rex ,

Pedophiles with thesauri

Grimy , (edited )

We can see who did but that being said, I’ve downvoted posts many times before by accident. It’s very easy to do when scrolling, it was most likely that.

ameancow ,

People genuinely are twisted about sex and age and consent, and there is no truer view into our massive flaws as a species. That we have anyone at all in this age and at this point in our evolution targeting children for self-gratification tells me all I need to know about the Fermi Paradox. We are NOT an advanced species. The very worst of us represents all of us.

Bluefalcon ,

Next will be the “I slipped and fell” defense

APassenger ,

Hav me you read the Bible?

Within some circles, it’s a little bit of one. Just not one that works legally or with you or me.

dexa_scantron ,
@dexa_scantron@lemmy.world avatar

The right thing to do if a 12-year-old makes sexual advances on an adult is for the adult to report it because the 12-year-old is probably being abused!! Not to have sex with them!! What the fuck?! (Not that I believe this shit for a second but even if it were true that makes him just as much of an abuser.)

HelixDab2 ,

the 12-year-old is probably being abused!!

Eh. I dunno. I was engaging in explicitly sexual activities with other children my own age when I was 7, and I wasn’t being abused. To the best of my knowledge, they weren’t either. Sexuality is pretty well baked into our DNA, and sexual exploration, sex play, and yes, sexual intercourse is something children tend to do because it’s so biologically coded into us.

On the other hand, parents should probably have a frank, shame-free discussion with children about what is, and is not, appropriate behavior with adults, how consent works with peers, and discuss time and space constraints on behaviors.

dexa_scantron ,
@dexa_scantron@lemmy.world avatar

“Other children my own age”, sure. You weren’t seducing 22-year-old men.

HelixDab2 ,

The point was that sexual behavior in young children does not necessarily equal abuse.

otp , (edited )

The implication was that sexual behaviour towards adults in young children is the warning sign.

EDIT: formatting

HelixDab2 ,

Children having sexual urges towards and crushes on adults is pretty normal–particularly once they hit early pubescence and are flooded with hormones–so I don’t necessarily see it as a sign that a child has already been abused. But, again, an adult acting sexual towards any child is absolutely, 1000% wrong.

The perspective I’m coming at this from is that, based on feedback I’ve gotten over the years, I was sexually precocious, and my parents responded by, first, shaming, and second, taking me to a professional because they were sure something was “wrong” with me, and that it needed to be “fixed”. That ended up being deeply harmful to me, and it’s taken me decades to reach some kind of detente with who I am. (The psychologist was actually quite supportive of me. He said my parents were wrong, and that I was going through normal things, albeit at an earlier age than most. But that didn’t really help with the load of shaming that I was getting from my parents and religious leaders.) Parents freaking out and immediately going to an authority is going to have that kind of effect on a child. IMO, it would likely be better for parents to have a very frank, but non-judgmental discussion with a child before leaping to the conclusion that they were acting out because they were abused, rather than because they had a colossal lapse in judgment.

otp ,

Sometimes there’s smoke but there’s no fire. A warning sign isn’t a conclusion.

ameancow ,

A 12-year-old cannot consent.

The people who need to hear this the most are also the ones who will respond to this statement with “No you idiot, it SAYS she initiated!” Or at least inside they will think this.

I used to think that this kind of statement would carry all the necessary information to teach people about consent, but no, it’s not nearly enough. We have several whole generations that skipped PBS and education and reading and life experiences entirely, they have withdrawn to isolated spaces that indulge whatever twisted passions they have and people make far, far less effort to understand concepts than they used to.

What you have to explain is that what a child thinks they want versus what you, an adult with adult perspectives wants, are not aligned and will lead to massive, massive power imbalances, and we protect children from their own foolish ideas ALL DAY LONG about other things.

You can do massive damage to a child psychologically by taking away their natural pace of growth and self-discovery and replacing them with your own ideas of what a sexual relationship is. A twelve year-old has another DECADE TO A DECADE AND A HALF to go before they finalize growth and development for the most part. In that time, they will draw on all their life experiences to guide them to a healthy future and a positive attitude about themselves and sex. If someone out there is reading all this and still does not get it, you need to haul yourself to therapy yesterday.

WatDabney ,

And this neatly illustrates the grotesquely destructive delusion that lies at the heart of religious fundamentalism - it’s ultimately, and I’m tempted to say without exception, an attempt by overtly evil people to place the blame for their evil on others, or on society as a whole.

The underlying issue is not that other people feel lust, for instance, but that they themselves feel lust, and they consider that to be so shameful that their self-images cannot tolerate the idea that it’s a part of their own makeup. It must and can only be, to them, a thing that’s been imposed on them by “evil” people or an “evil” society, so the solution, to them, is to stamp out that “evil.” Solely in the belief, ultimately, that if that “evil” could somehow be made to not exist, it would no longer plague them.

lath ,

Back to the witch trials we go.

“She used her evil magic to tempt me!” “Her devil powers controlled my groin!” “Oh woes me! Look at these weakened knees of mine! The succubus has drained the life out me!”

iAmTheTot ,

“and so what was he to do, Your Honour? Say no to a twelve year old? Report their conduct to their parents?”

finley ,

interesting-- and where was their all-powerful, all-seeing sky-wizard during all of this? why was it powerless to stop this from happening? where was their “superior morality” to stop them? why it is, with an all-powerful sky-wizard, a superior morality, and an adult - a pastor - present, is it the fault of a 12 year-old?

card797 ,

Well, something that doesn’t exist would be powerless to stop them.

finley ,

i really wish this argument would work in court

tburkhol ,

I’m pretty sure the answer is that sky-daddy sent the little girl to test the pastor, that he might endure this challenge and come out a better man for the lesson. Sky-daddy doesn’t give agency to women or children - they serve only as props in the narrative of men’s lives.

AbidanYre ,

Well, he certainly failed that test then.

lath ,

It’s ok. He said 3 Hail Marys and abstained from meat and alcohol for half a day. He’s safe.

TexasDrunk ,

You’re giving them too much credit. “God works in mysterious ways” is what they say when kids get molested or die horribly.

Bremmy ,

He was watching and enjoying it

Dudewitbow ,

the fact they didnt claim he was raped means he was likely awake therefore cannot claim any innocence from the situation.

basically the only way out of a situation like this is provably without reasonable doubt, that you were raped in a state where you werent conscious. and since they didnt argue it means you cannot justify it.

Gingerlegs ,

The old switcharoo

Lenny ,

“That bank money was begging me to take it, your honor. Sittin’ there, with those tight little bands on; it was askin’ for it!”

shalafi ,

Buddy of mine’s 12-yo stepdaughter was flirting with him when they watched movies. He was horrified and confused.

“Dude, she’s just testing her feminine wiles on you since she sees you as safe, kinda testing her attractiveness. Doesn’t even have a clue she’s doing it. Just ignore it or gently push back if she goes too far.”

And of course all was well. Thought it was a cute and funny story.

And we have lawyers trying to slide this defense?! Not to mention the guy who took it seriously and raped a child! I swear to god they used to threaten disbarment over stupid shit like this.

tl;dr Kids do stupid shit when they start puberty. It’s on the adult to see what’s happening.

tpihkal ,

I’m in my late thirties and I have to remind myself when a younger twenty-something girl comes on to me, that is never going to work and I have to be the mature one to shut it down.

stoly ,

lol I like the comment but it comes across a little “look what I can do still”

tpihkal ,

That is not what I meant but I don’t know how to explain it without sounding like a douche.

The point I’m trying to make is that you have to recognize your place in life and use that as reference to help other people around you.

stoly ,

FWIW I understood what you were saying. I am a linguist which means I’m sensitive to differing meanings that the same words and phrases have. I happened to notice it on your comment and thought it was funny.

iAmTheTot ,

I like the comment but comes off a little “look what I can do”.

stoly ,

And that’s an alternative meaning that can be divined from the original statement. It was also funny.

rowrowrowyourboat ,

I get what you’re saying, but let’s chill out on the infantilization of women.

A 20-something-year-old woman doesn’t compare to a 12-year-old.

And maybe the 20-something-year-old woman hitting on you just wants to have fun and is not thinking about anything working out with you. Presume much?

blazeknave ,

How old are you? I agree with your infantilization comment but you’re wrong here. I’m middle aged. A girl in her 20s literally looks like a child to me and the older I get, the more I see it’s fucking gross when older men date women that make them feel like they’re fucking little girls.

nomous ,

You must be looking at the wrong 20yr olds, take a walk around a university campus and tell me they’re kids.

blazeknave ,

And how old are you?

nomous ,

I’m old enough to look at 22yr olds and see them as grown women. Pretty gross to see them as anything less honestly.

Soulg ,

You’re really protecting a lot onto the other guys comments, dude. I’m only 30 and 20yr Olds look like children, both men and women. It has literally nothing to do with disrespect and everything to do perception of others as you age.

That’s why they kept asking you your age. You’re clearly also a child who doesn’t understand it yet.

blazeknave ,

Yeah. If he’s not a kid fucker, he’s a kid.

nomous ,

Says the clown acting like grown women are kids.

otp ,

The original commenter said

that is never going to work and I have to be the mature one to shut it down.

They didn’t say anything about women being or looking like children.

It’s not infantilizing to recognize that, for them, being at significantly different life stages would not be the kind of relationship they want.

blazeknave ,

Anything less? Different isn’t less. I didn’t say less. Distraction.

I hire and mentor women that age. I still think anyone that age, whether their gender, looks like a kid, when you’re older. And I don’t like fucking kids, or adults that look like kids. How gross of me.

So how old are you? Old enough to second guess how you’re going to be received by responding directly?

assassin_aragorn ,

I get what you’re saying. The way I look at it is that it’s different phases of life. At nearly 30 I really can’t relate to someone still in college. Maybe a senior at best. I’d be flattered if they came onto me, but they’re just too young for me. That doesn’t mean they’re like a 12 year old. It just means I want to date someone I can more closely relate to and who’s had experience living and working after college.

There’s a maturity factor too. I was waaaaay less mature back in my early 20s and drank and partied a lot. That’s how it should be, I’m not knocking people for doing that. Being less mature isn’t a bad thing when you’re actually young, and you should have fun while you are. There’s nothing wrong with that.

This is why I can’t fathom 30+ year old men being interested in even 18 or 19 year olds. They’re less mature (again, as they should be!) and at a very different stage in life. It’s creepy to actually want to date them.

Empricorn ,

You’re correct, but keep in mind your example is still legal! The article we are discussing is not.

Norgur ,
@Norgur@fedia.io avatar

I refuse to read anything after the headline to keep my blood below boiling point. Did I miss anything?

HomerianSymphony , (edited )

If anything, it gets worse.

Norgur ,
@Norgur@fedia.io avatar

Oh by Zeus,.may the gods have mercy for I have none.

KevonLooney ,

After this I don’t think donald trump can continue his campaign. He should step down and allow another Republican to take his place.

Oyml77 ,

He’ll just deny any connection to this guy and his cult members will believe it. Reality, truth, and evidence don’t mean anything to them.

KevonLooney ,

I’m just putting it out there in case the media wants to run the common story: “Internet is exploding with demands for some politician to step down.” And they quote maybe three tweets from randos.

Here it is media; a demand for trump to step down and stop running. The Internet is exploding and voters are demanding it!!!

AbidanYre ,

Many people are calling for trump to step down. The best people.

KevonLooney ,

True I just saw it online today. Hey there it is again!

Everyone’s saying it!

snekerpimp ,

As the adult, it is your job, responsibility, nay DUTY to say “NO!!!” And run for the hills!

Biggles , (edited )

Or, hear me out, the man is a hypocrite who preaches morality but has no problem using a preteen girl to gratify his sexual desires.

FlyingSquid ,
@FlyingSquid@lemmy.world avatar

Even Nabokov didn’t say Lolita made Humbert Humbert do it.

Mostly_Gristle ,

Well… He did make the character Humbert Humbert say it, though.

“Frigid gentlewomen of the jury! I had thought that months, perhaps years, would elapse before I dared to reveal myself to Dolores haze; but by six she was wide awake, and by six fifteen we were technically lovers. I am going to tell you something very strange: it was she who seduced me.”

FlyingSquid ,
@FlyingSquid@lemmy.world avatar

Yeah, but he made Humbert say it to show what a despicable person he was.

Riven ,
@Riven@lemmy.dbzer0.com avatar

God reminds me of a Manga i had to stop reading. Bunch of bad ass women and a loser isekai main character. For some reason all the women were hell bent on being his ‘slaves’ for lack of a better word. They kept making these speeches about how they were inferior and their duty was to the man and all these obscene backwards ideas. I Google the author and sure enough dude is an alt right dbag. He only ever made the women characters say these deamening things like if that made it better or gave them some sort of credibility.

mozz ,
@mozz@mbin.grits.dev avatar

Dude

What the FUCK

Okay

The people who are pointing out that he's obviously lying have a pretty compelling argument

The people who are pointing out that even if a 12-year-old DOES try to initiate sexual contact with you, you need to tell them no and tell their parents, are correct

But even THAT isn't the full scope of it

BOTH THIS DUDE AND HIS LAWYER ARE CONVINCED THAT THAT'S A GOOD EXPLANATION THAT WILL HELP HIS CASE

What the FUCK is going on in these megachurches that no one including the guy employed to get this guy a good outcome can just tell him to keep his mouth shut because nothing he says is going to help, let alone THAT. Like they are in a professional capacity standing up in real life reality and with apparently fully functioning adult brains modeling it out and expecting people to say OOOOOHH it was the 12 year old's fault, I get it, these things happen, carry on.

WraithGear ,
@WraithGear@lemmy.world avatar

The lawyer must know his audience

mozz ,
@mozz@mbin.grits.dev avatar

🤢

WraithGear ,
@WraithGear@lemmy.world avatar

I know buddy it ain’t getting any better.

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