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Lawyers for megachurch pastor blame 12-year-old for ‘initiating’ sexual contact

Lawyers for Donald Trump’s former faith advisor Robert Morris accused a 12-year-old girl of initiating “inappropriate” sexual conduct with the ex-Dallas megachurch pastor, new documents have revealed.

Morris resigned in June after admitting to the incident. His accuser Cindy Clemishire previously claimed that the pastor had begun abusing her on Christmas Day in 1982.

Clemishire, now 52, said that Morris and his wife had been staying at her family home at the time when he asked her to come into his room, whereafter he told her to lay on his bed and then began touching her inappropriately.

She said the abuse had continued until 1987 when she told her parents.

However, 25 years after the incident, a lawyer for Morris – J Shelby Sharpe – claimed that it was the child who was actually to blame.

Etterra ,

Ex-fucking-excuse me? Not just victim blaming, but victim blaming a child? I fucking hate living on this planet. Just launch me into the sun already.

InternetUser2012 ,

How about we just launch maga into the sun and then work on saving humanity and our planet.

Revan343 ,

Easier to launch them out of the solar system

mosiacmango ,

The child rapist has literally no defense, so his lawyer is trying the “she was asking for it” card.

The sad part is that this is not a ceiminal case, as there was a statue of limitations back when he was raping her. There no longer is, but that doesnt help her. All she can do is sue him civally. Still, “the 12 year old in pajamas was asking for it” is not gonna help here.

assassin_aragorn ,

Lawyers are obligated to defend even obviously guilty people, but seriously? Victim blaming a child?

I get it, it’s hard to come up with a tenable legal defense when someone is starkly guilty, but this is just gross.

asteriskeverything ,

Yeah thanks for pointing out something that sort of tickled my brain for a while now and made the thought full formed. I’m going to start pointing this out because it is WILD that we have a culture of saving children from the predators and then also blaming children for being preyed on. And it’s just the one side.

How much hypocrisy can someone swallow ffs???

FlyingSquid ,
@FlyingSquid@lemmy.world avatar

You know, I’m only five years younger than him, and yet never in my life since I was about 12 years old myself has a 12-year-old so much as flirted with me. This 52-year-old is somehow irresistible to the middle schoolers?

2484345508 ,

How often do adults flirt with you?

FlyingSquid ,
@FlyingSquid@lemmy.world avatar

Between when I was 12 and now? Enough to be married for almost 24 years.

asteriskeverything ,

Before I could drive and had to walk everywhere??? DAILY

CatZoomies ,
@CatZoomies@lemmy.world avatar

Providing just a small correction here. The child was 12 at the time, now 52.

Robert Morris (the accused sexual predator former pastor of the rapist, racist, sexist, traitor, “Christian”, beloved friend of Jeffrey Epstein, and convicted felon Donald Trump) was 22 at the time and now 62.

A 22 year old preying and praying on a 12 year old. Just so disgusting.

FlyingSquid ,
@FlyingSquid@lemmy.world avatar

Whoops. Sorry. And yeah, no 12-year-old ever flirted with me when I was 22 either. And if they did, I would be smart enough not to reciprocate even if I was interested, which I wouldn’t have been.

CatZoomies ,
@CatZoomies@lemmy.world avatar

No prob! I just had to internet search this pastor because I wanted to know just how old his gross ass was when he did that. I think most functioning persons in society would have the same mindset as you shared.

todd_bonzalez ,
@todd_bonzalez@lemm.ee avatar

I have had a 12 year old flirt with me. It was cute, and I wasn’t tempted to molest her because I’m not insane.

FlyingSquid ,
@FlyingSquid@lemmy.world avatar

I believe you, but I’m guessing it’s not especially common for a girl as young as 12. They barely understand the concept of flirtation at that age, and these days they probably think they know about sex by seeing internet porn when their parents didn’t know about it.

Anyway, like you said, it’s pretty easy to just not touch the girl.

assassin_aragorn ,

It’s cute when a kid has a crush like that, but that’s all it is, a crush. From someone who doesn’t understand what romance is beyond what’s in pop culture. It’s cute and wholesome.

An adult seeing that and going “hmm, what if” is the exact fucking opposite of cute and wholesome. They’re a freaky ass fella who needs to be locked up.

asteriskeverything ,

When I see the most depraved defense from lawyers like this it just tells me that the person is so fucking guilty that I now suspect them guilty of even more than we know.

Freefall ,

You seem cool…can we launch THEM into the sun instead?

HubertManne ,

oh man. this is so hilariously close to an onion article from way back. https://www.theonion.com/pope-forgives-molested-children-1819566450

finley ,

interesting-- and where was their all-powerful, all-seeing sky-wizard during all of this? why was it powerless to stop this from happening? where was their “superior morality” to stop them? why it is, with an all-powerful sky-wizard, a superior morality, and an adult - a pastor - present, is it the fault of a 12 year-old?

card797 ,

Well, something that doesn’t exist would be powerless to stop them.

finley ,

i really wish this argument would work in court

tburkhol ,

I’m pretty sure the answer is that sky-daddy sent the little girl to test the pastor, that he might endure this challenge and come out a better man for the lesson. Sky-daddy doesn’t give agency to women or children - they serve only as props in the narrative of men’s lives.

AbidanYre ,

Well, he certainly failed that test then.

lath ,

It’s ok. He said 3 Hail Marys and abstained from meat and alcohol for half a day. He’s safe.

TexasDrunk ,

You’re giving them too much credit. “God works in mysterious ways” is what they say when kids get molested or die horribly.

Bremmy ,

He was watching and enjoying it

n3m37h ,

Shows you the everyone in Trumps circle are all terrible. Shit attracts flies

catloaf ,

Even if she did, so what? A 12-year-old cannot consent. The adult cannot engage. This is not a defense.

KoboldCoterie ,
@KoboldCoterie@pawb.social avatar

The fact that this post has a downvote is legitimately worrying to me. I really hope that’s not someone who disagrees with this statement.

DogPeePoo , (edited )

MAGA(t)S gonna MAGA

harrys_balzac ,

I was thinking Libertarian. Could be both.

stoly ,

libertarianism is also where I went. There are some people who think contrary to whatever appears in front of them, however.

jaybone ,

Are there really any MAGAs on Lemmy? Seems like they wouldn’t bother.

barsquid ,

MAGAs’ core principles are bigotry and oppositional defiant disorder. They have a mental disorder compelling them to make the out-groups angry. So of course they spread to places where people hate them, including Lemmy.

Snowpix ,
@Snowpix@lemmy.ca avatar

lemm.ee has a conservative community that’s full of some of the most dense individuals I’ve seen on here. It’s quite fun watching them twist themselves into knots when faced with dissenting opinions over there.

cygnus ,
@cygnus@lemmy.ca avatar

Whoever downvoted has definitely used the word “ephebophilia” unironically int he past.

andros_rex ,

Pedophiles with thesauri

Grimy , (edited )

We can see who did but that being said, I’ve downvoted posts many times before by accident. It’s very easy to do when scrolling, it was most likely that.

ameancow ,

People genuinely are twisted about sex and age and consent, and there is no truer view into our massive flaws as a species. That we have anyone at all in this age and at this point in our evolution targeting children for self-gratification tells me all I need to know about the Fermi Paradox. We are NOT an advanced species. The very worst of us represents all of us.

Bluefalcon ,

Next will be the “I slipped and fell” defense

APassenger ,

Hav me you read the Bible?

Within some circles, it’s a little bit of one. Just not one that works legally or with you or me.

dexa_scantron ,
@dexa_scantron@lemmy.world avatar

The right thing to do if a 12-year-old makes sexual advances on an adult is for the adult to report it because the 12-year-old is probably being abused!! Not to have sex with them!! What the fuck?! (Not that I believe this shit for a second but even if it were true that makes him just as much of an abuser.)

HelixDab2 ,

the 12-year-old is probably being abused!!

Eh. I dunno. I was engaging in explicitly sexual activities with other children my own age when I was 7, and I wasn’t being abused. To the best of my knowledge, they weren’t either. Sexuality is pretty well baked into our DNA, and sexual exploration, sex play, and yes, sexual intercourse is something children tend to do because it’s so biologically coded into us.

On the other hand, parents should probably have a frank, shame-free discussion with children about what is, and is not, appropriate behavior with adults, how consent works with peers, and discuss time and space constraints on behaviors.

dexa_scantron ,
@dexa_scantron@lemmy.world avatar

“Other children my own age”, sure. You weren’t seducing 22-year-old men.

HelixDab2 ,

The point was that sexual behavior in young children does not necessarily equal abuse.

otp , (edited )

The implication was that sexual behaviour towards adults in young children is the warning sign.

EDIT: formatting

HelixDab2 ,

Children having sexual urges towards and crushes on adults is pretty normal–particularly once they hit early pubescence and are flooded with hormones–so I don’t necessarily see it as a sign that a child has already been abused. But, again, an adult acting sexual towards any child is absolutely, 1000% wrong.

The perspective I’m coming at this from is that, based on feedback I’ve gotten over the years, I was sexually precocious, and my parents responded by, first, shaming, and second, taking me to a professional because they were sure something was “wrong” with me, and that it needed to be “fixed”. That ended up being deeply harmful to me, and it’s taken me decades to reach some kind of detente with who I am. (The psychologist was actually quite supportive of me. He said my parents were wrong, and that I was going through normal things, albeit at an earlier age than most. But that didn’t really help with the load of shaming that I was getting from my parents and religious leaders.) Parents freaking out and immediately going to an authority is going to have that kind of effect on a child. IMO, it would likely be better for parents to have a very frank, but non-judgmental discussion with a child before leaping to the conclusion that they were acting out because they were abused, rather than because they had a colossal lapse in judgment.

otp ,

Sometimes there’s smoke but there’s no fire. A warning sign isn’t a conclusion.

ameancow ,

A 12-year-old cannot consent.

The people who need to hear this the most are also the ones who will respond to this statement with “No you idiot, it SAYS she initiated!” Or at least inside they will think this.

I used to think that this kind of statement would carry all the necessary information to teach people about consent, but no, it’s not nearly enough. We have several whole generations that skipped PBS and education and reading and life experiences entirely, they have withdrawn to isolated spaces that indulge whatever twisted passions they have and people make far, far less effort to understand concepts than they used to.

What you have to explain is that what a child thinks they want versus what you, an adult with adult perspectives wants, are not aligned and will lead to massive, massive power imbalances, and we protect children from their own foolish ideas ALL DAY LONG about other things.

You can do massive damage to a child psychologically by taking away their natural pace of growth and self-discovery and replacing them with your own ideas of what a sexual relationship is. A twelve year-old has another DECADE TO A DECADE AND A HALF to go before they finalize growth and development for the most part. In that time, they will draw on all their life experiences to guide them to a healthy future and a positive attitude about themselves and sex. If someone out there is reading all this and still does not get it, you need to haul yourself to therapy yesterday.

ToucheGoodSir ,

Reminds me of that story of a father that murdered his daughters rapist in a small town and the whole town was like “I DIDN’T SEE NUFFIN” and I believe the father did not end up going to prison for it. Is a BIG, fuck around find out situation for pieces of human garbage like this. Don’t think these boomer pedos/other idiots realize what quantum computing and all of the data centers across the world storing citizens data for decades means for THEM… Just requires some inspired algorithms and a police force that is willing to uh, NOT protect the baddies and do their jobs as detectives vs arresting brown people for drugz :|

assassin_aragorn ,

A conviction requires a jury of your peers to deem you guilty – if your peers don’t think you’ve broken the law by killing a child rapist, then you aren’t guilty.

shalafi ,

Buddy of mine’s 12-yo stepdaughter was flirting with him when they watched movies. He was horrified and confused.

“Dude, she’s just testing her feminine wiles on you since she sees you as safe, kinda testing her attractiveness. Doesn’t even have a clue she’s doing it. Just ignore it or gently push back if she goes too far.”

And of course all was well. Thought it was a cute and funny story.

And we have lawyers trying to slide this defense?! Not to mention the guy who took it seriously and raped a child! I swear to god they used to threaten disbarment over stupid shit like this.

tl;dr Kids do stupid shit when they start puberty. It’s on the adult to see what’s happening.

tpihkal ,

I’m in my late thirties and I have to remind myself when a younger twenty-something girl comes on to me, that is never going to work and I have to be the mature one to shut it down.

stoly ,

lol I like the comment but it comes across a little “look what I can do still”

tpihkal ,

That is not what I meant but I don’t know how to explain it without sounding like a douche.

The point I’m trying to make is that you have to recognize your place in life and use that as reference to help other people around you.

stoly ,

FWIW I understood what you were saying. I am a linguist which means I’m sensitive to differing meanings that the same words and phrases have. I happened to notice it on your comment and thought it was funny.

iAmTheTot ,

I like the comment but comes off a little “look what I can do”.

stoly ,

And that’s an alternative meaning that can be divined from the original statement. It was also funny.

rowrowrowyourboat ,

I get what you’re saying, but let’s chill out on the infantilization of women.

A 20-something-year-old woman doesn’t compare to a 12-year-old.

And maybe the 20-something-year-old woman hitting on you just wants to have fun and is not thinking about anything working out with you. Presume much?

blazeknave ,

How old are you? I agree with your infantilization comment but you’re wrong here. I’m middle aged. A girl in her 20s literally looks like a child to me and the older I get, the more I see it’s fucking gross when older men date women that make them feel like they’re fucking little girls.

nomous ,

You must be looking at the wrong 20yr olds, take a walk around a university campus and tell me they’re kids.

blazeknave ,

And how old are you?

nomous ,

I’m old enough to look at 22yr olds and see them as grown women. Pretty gross to see them as anything less honestly.

Soulg ,

You’re really protecting a lot onto the other guys comments, dude. I’m only 30 and 20yr Olds look like children, both men and women. It has literally nothing to do with disrespect and everything to do perception of others as you age.

That’s why they kept asking you your age. You’re clearly also a child who doesn’t understand it yet.

blazeknave ,

Yeah. If he’s not a kid fucker, he’s a kid.

nomous ,

Says the clown acting like grown women are kids.

otp ,

The original commenter said

that is never going to work and I have to be the mature one to shut it down.

They didn’t say anything about women being or looking like children.

It’s not infantilizing to recognize that, for them, being at significantly different life stages would not be the kind of relationship they want.

blazeknave ,

Anything less? Different isn’t less. I didn’t say less. Distraction.

I hire and mentor women that age. I still think anyone that age, whether their gender, looks like a kid, when you’re older. And I don’t like fucking kids, or adults that look like kids. How gross of me.

So how old are you? Old enough to second guess how you’re going to be received by responding directly?

assassin_aragorn ,

I get what you’re saying. The way I look at it is that it’s different phases of life. At nearly 30 I really can’t relate to someone still in college. Maybe a senior at best. I’d be flattered if they came onto me, but they’re just too young for me. That doesn’t mean they’re like a 12 year old. It just means I want to date someone I can more closely relate to and who’s had experience living and working after college.

There’s a maturity factor too. I was waaaaay less mature back in my early 20s and drank and partied a lot. That’s how it should be, I’m not knocking people for doing that. Being less mature isn’t a bad thing when you’re actually young, and you should have fun while you are. There’s nothing wrong with that.

This is why I can’t fathom 30+ year old men being interested in even 18 or 19 year olds. They’re less mature (again, as they should be!) and at a very different stage in life. It’s creepy to actually want to date them.

Empricorn ,

You’re correct, but keep in mind your example is still legal! The article we are discussing is not.

RagingHungryPanda ,

In case anyone is not sure, this behavior is completely normal in the Christian circles. The number of times I heard people, preachers, or whoever blame the victim for causing the man of god to stumble is far more than you would want to know, and was every time.

One thing to understand about many Christian groups is that they elevate their preachers to a very high standing and believe that they are “so close to the Lord” that they just don’t do bad things. So, in order to preserve this cognitive dissonance, it’s the child that tempted them to sin.

fukurthumz420 ,

atheists need to be more vocal

Iheartcheese ,
@Iheartcheese@lemmy.world avatar

Atheists are extremely vocal.

fukurthumz420 ,

we still live in a world where religion spoils secular life, so we’re apparently not vocal enough.

lone_faerie ,

There’s a reason molestation insurance for churches is such a big industry

FrowingFostek ,

The idea hadn’t even crossed my mind that this was a real thing. I had to search it up because, my brain couldn’t compute. Boom, 5 links talking about “SAMs”.

RIPandTERROR ,
@RIPandTERROR@sh.itjust.works avatar

There’s no way…

Edit: https://sh.itjust.works/pictrs/image/84db67c1-722b-4314-ab85-022d7fad2052.png

Here are a few examples of insurance companies that offer molestation insurance, specifically tailored for churches and religious organizations:

  1. Church Mutual Insurance Company: This company provides a range of insurance products for religious organizations, including sexual misconduct liability insurance. They offer coverage for legal defense costs, settlements, and other expenses related to allegations of sexual abuse or molestation.
  2. GuideOne Insurance: GuideOne specializes in insurance for churches and nonprofit organizations. They offer sexual misconduct liability coverage as part of their comprehensive church insurance packages, helping protect against claims of sexual abuse.
  3. Brotherhood Mutual Insurance Company: Brotherhood Mutual offers insurance products designed for churches and ministries, including coverage for sexual misconduct liability. Their policies can help cover legal expenses, settlements, and other costs associated with sexual abuse allegations.
  4. Philadelphia Insurance Companies: Philadelphia Insurance Companies provides specialized insurance solutions for religious organizations, including coverage for sexual misconduct and molestation. They offer policies that cover legal defense, settlements, and related costs.
  5. ChurchWest Insurance Services: ChurchWest provides insurance solutions for churches and religious institutions, including sexual misconduct liability insurance. Their policies are designed to protect organizations from the financial and reputational damage that can result from such claims.

These companies offer tailored policies that address the unique risks faced by religious organizations, providing financial protection and support in the event of allegations of sexual misconduct. It’s important for churches to work with an experienced insurance broker or agent to ensure they have the appropriate coverage in place.

What in the unholy fuck.

Freefall ,

I’m sorry…fucking WHAT‽

RIPandTERROR ,
@RIPandTERROR@sh.itjust.works avatar

I’ve spent a lot of today thinking about this.

How do you stay in any system that relies on this type of insurance to operate?

I could never be a part of a church doing this, Even if I was religious.

Do people just not know? Would it matter?

How is this a thing???

assassin_aragorn ,

What the actual fuck

How do any of these people live with themselves?

andros_rex ,

Boy Scouts had this problem and implemented the “Rule of 2” - never leave a single adult alone with an unrelated kid, need to have at least two. But nope, let’s stick the twenty something youth pastor in a room alone with teenage girls… guess the insurance payout is if the parents don’t force the girl to marry the rapist…

assassin_aragorn ,

An old coworker of mine at an old job was involved in Scouts as a den leader or whatever it’s called, and he was telling us about the Rule of 2. The organization apparently took it really fucking seriously when there was a child sexual abuse case with a den leader. Rule of 2, mandatory training on recognizing and reporting abuse. They basically went full Title 9.

On a lighter note, this was also around the time Boy Scouts rebranded into Scouts and started letting girls join. My coworker said the one girl in his group excelled over everyone else and was quite skilled at everything. The organization made a great decision in making the group coed.

barsquid ,

Even assuming this isn’t a fucking lie,

It is still just as much of a crime to sex assault a child even if the child initiates the inappropriate contact. Stop them and get them some mental help.

Is that at all a controversial opinion? I guess among Trumpanzees there are plenty who condone sex assaulting children (or adults) as long as the perpetrator is part of the in-group.

assassin_aragorn ,

The normal thing to do when a preteen or teenager asks you to have sexual relations with them is to say “absolutely fucking not”.

The whole point of the age of consent is that below a certain age teenagers and children don’t understand what they’re agreeing to or asking for.

This is the stupidest possible legal defense they could make.

a_wild_mimic_appears ,

Damn, that 12 year old girl must’ve been a commie too, raised on those russian cold war era steroids!

assassin_aragorn ,

This is the best the lawyers could come up with? He very clearly scraped the bottom of the barrel when looking for legal representation

jaemo ,

My word, but Christians are truly among the very worst examples of humanity. No wonder churchgoing is plummeting, even the lack of civility in modern society can’t pave over the abject awfulness of this cult.

Back to the stone age, where you belong, sky wizard cultists!

fukurthumz420 ,

keep it going until all the abrahamic religions are considered a cult by most of the sane world.

fukurthumz420 ,

religion strikes again. it’s almost like the world would be a better place without it.

before you come with the ‘shitty people can be anywhere’, ask yourself would this person have been emboldened to act on their sociopathic desires without having religion to hide behind?

Corvidae ,

Can’t buy alcohol. Can’t buy cigarettes. Can’t be employed in most jobs. Can’t get a drivers license. But can initiate sex with an adult?

feedum_sneedson ,

They can certainly attempt to, particularly if they’ve previously been abused by a caregiver. It’s totally something you’re trained to deal with if you work with vulnerable children, as it’s a major indicator of this. Teenagers are a bit different as they are exploring their sexuality and may incorporate this into disruptive behaviour if they notice it gets a reaction. Neither of these situations would serve as a legal defence, however, were you to start joining in. A colleague had a fourteen-year-old girl in a hitched-up skirt come and sit on his lap and pout because he told her off in class. He just stared at the wall until she got off, then went and reported it.

andros_rex ,

Yeah - if you are a teacher you ALWAYS leave the door cracked open, never alone with a kid.

Those kinds of kids almost always have genuinely experienced sexual abuse elsewhere. I’m working with a child who does exhibit that kind of behavior - propositioning adults/other teens and then claiming assault when rejected. The thing with kids and false allegations is that they are usually wildly inconsistent - as long as organizational safeguards are in place, it’s usually easy to verify that the claimed event didn’t happen. It is a STRONG indicator for previous experiences of abuse though.

This case is not at all consistent with what false allegations look like.

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