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‘The Movement to Convince Biden to Not Run Is Real’

One House Democrat said he spoke for others in the wake of the president’s stunningly feeble debate performance on Thursday: “The movement to convince Biden to not run is real.”

The House member, an outspoken defender of the president, said that House Minority Leader Hakeem Jeffries and Senate Majority Leader Chuck Schumer should consider “a combined effort” to nudge President Joe Biden out of the race.

Crestfallen by the president’s weak voice, pallid appearance and meandering answers, numerous Democratic officials said Biden’s bet on an early debate to rebut unceasing questions about his age had not only backfired but done damage that may prove irreversible. The president had, in the first 30 minutes of the debate, fully affirmed doubts about his fitness.

A second House Democrat said “reflection is needed” from Biden about the way ahead and indicated the private text threads among lawmakers were even more dire, with some saying outright that the president needed to drop out of the race.

pwalshj ,

They should force Hillary on us again.

Not_mikey ,

Bidens about to go down as one of the worst Democrats in the last century because of his hubris if he doesn’t. His decent domestic agenda will be overshadowed by him ushering in another trump presidency by ignoring all the signs for him to drop out. He didn’t early last year when polls repeatedly showed that people thought he was too old. He didn’t when unnamed democrat was leading him by 10 points. He didn’t when his Gaza policy alienated large chunks of his base. If he doesn’t in the next couple weeks when there will probably be polls coming out showing majority support for him stepping down then he’s gone full head in the sand.

It’s like RBG all over again, if these people could just get it through there heads to quit while there ahead they could preserve a decent legacy, instead of tarnishing it by leading the way to a regressive order that overturns everything they’ve done.

Dkarma ,

It’s too late for this kind of thinking. We can’t change horses mid stream

mojo_raisin ,

I thought that, but after last night, I wouldn’t let Biden cook in my kitchen without supervision.

festus , (edited )

Biden will lose against Trump. Changing candidates this late isn’t ideal but it’s better than guaranteed failure, and it’s better than after the convention if Biden deteroriates from where he’s currently at.

Omegamanthethird ,
@Omegamanthethird@lemmy.world avatar

I’m not worried about him “deteriorating”. Anyone who has paid attention to him at all knows that was not reflective of his actual ability to lead. Hell, right after he sounded fine at the after party for anyone still listening.

I’m only worried about people thinking he’s deteriorating. A lot of people have literally only seen that debate from him in the last year and nothing else.

If we stay with Biden, he needs to get really aggressive with his image. Hang out with influencers, go to games, don’t talk about controversial politics while having fun (like with the ice cream).

If we go a different direction it needs to happen now.

I really don’t care which we do. But it’s an important conversation to have. This debate fiasco is 99% on Biden being unprepared. But image is everything for a candidate.

BabyVi ,

If your horse is on death’s door. And you’re crossing a stream. You’d better be prepared to swim.

xmunk ,

We can change horses if there’s overwhelming pressure to do it and it’s exceptionally well planned.

What we absolutely can’t do is nominate someone else against Biden’s wishes and still have him on the ballot as an independent… that’s how you get folks like Woodrow Wilson.

I, personally, think it’s doubtful that much pressure will materialize, but I’m prepared to be pleasantly surprised.

fine_sandy_bottom ,

Meh. Planning be damned. Just float someone under 60 and they’ll crush it.

Maggoty ,

It depends on how the democrat’s civil war goes in that case. If the replacement gets the lion’s share of the funding then people will abandon Biden. His polling really isn’t great.

tate ,

You have to, if your horse literally can’t make it across. It may not go well, but you have no choice.

lennybird ,
@lennybird@lemmy.world avatar

I disagree. I actually think you’d see a boost.

  • Acknowledging age concerns of the electorate = good.
  • Running someone fresh that appeals to this American Idol-esque popularity contest = good.
  • Running someone Republicans don’t have their talking-points fleshed out on = good.
dragontamer ,

Running someone fresh that appeals to this American Idol-esque popularity contest = good.

What if no such person exists?

Then you just lose and Trump becomes President by default. Do you have confidence that Democrats can rally behind an actually named person? And if so, what is the name of that person?

I’m no Democrat. But I wouldn’t consider “replacing Biden by somebody” to be a serious option. You need to say “Replace Biden by SPECIFIC NAME HERE”. Otherwise you’re just throwing away the election before it even begins.

lennybird ,
@lennybird@lemmy.world avatar

Are you asking that because you believe nobody is lining up wanting to be President, or that there is no candidate who fits that bill? Because I can think of half a dozen who both fit the bill and have obvious political ambitions:

  • Whitmer
  • Newsom
  • Buttigieg
  • Booker
  • Abrams
  • Warnock.

All far more youthful; all far more charismatic. All who have enough national name recognition and would trounce Trump in debates and contrast of age alone.

The question to me isn’t, “who else,” it’s, “Will Biden voluntarily step down and endorse such a person at the convention?”

The polls prove this could work:nobody likes either candidate, people want new faces, and age is a problem. Just give them another choice on the Democratic ticket and it’s game-over for the convicted felon. If I could I’d be money this gives better odds than sticking it out with Biden.

dragontamer ,

I’m not into Democrats, so I honestly don’t know half the people on that list.

Newsom needs to start resigning today to make the election. I think he’s off on technical grounds. And others have pointed out that he’s lower than Trump on a lot of polls. Buttigieg is homosexual and sad to say it, homophobia is on the rise. After the party’s experimentation with Hillary Clinton / Kamala I’m not sure that its a winning strategy. I know middle-aged white guy WASP is annoying, but its a trope for a reason.

In all cases, Trump will deny the other pick as a “loser” and refuse to debate. You’ll be going into the election without ever getting on National stage. Its a huge set of risks.

I’m not necessarily against it. But I also don’t think Biden’s performance was worse than Trump’s last night. A lot of this seems to be just Democrats getting nervous about themselves and their own choices.

Whitmer

I see she’s getting some press. I wouldn’t be against her, but I also don’t know much about her in general. Can she hold up against the Republican hate machine? We all know that Hillary couldn’t do it, so what makes Whitmer any better or more prepared?

Biden did hold up vs Trump. Better or worse, he did prove himself. I recognize that people are worried about “newer, older Biden”. But there’s severe risks in switching a candidate now, especially as vetting likely hasn’t been completed by either side yet. (Democrats need to vet to figure out how Republicans are going to attack her). Its a complete mystery.

fine_sandy_bottom ,

Me too. I think you could change to more or less anyone and get a bump.

It really seems as though the populace is extraordinarily weary of these two tired old assholes.

Anyone under 60 would mop the floor with Trump’s toupee.

rwhitisissle ,

You have to understand that the average American functions off of lizard brain impulses. It would be probably go like this:

Acknowledging age concerns of the electorate = show of weakness.

Running someone fresh that appeals to this American Idol-esque popularity contest = show of weakness.

Running someone Republicans don’t have their talking-points fleshed out on = show of weakness.

America operates on principles of running someone strong who says they will always be strong and that if they ever become weak while in office and they acknowledge this to be replaced, the entire party goes with them like a tug boat latched to a sinking oil tanker. Trump didn’t win because he’s smart or a decent human being. He won because he exudes baseless confidence like a broken nuclear reactor exudes gamma radiation.

lennybird ,
@lennybird@lemmy.world avatar

You know I agree with much of what you say here. All I’ll say is that while there’s uncertainty in the outcome of this route, I’m convinced there is certainty at this point that Joe Biden will lose. Why? Because there is all there is to know about Joe Biden. Call it media saturation; diminishing returns… There is fundamentally nothing Joe Biden can do or say that people don’t already know and now their minds are pretty much made up. The desperation-play of even asking for that debate shows the Biden campaign knows how bad of a position they’re in… And it of course backfired tremendously.

So at this point, I view it as uncertainty versus a known loss.

And in that respect, I’m looking at this alternate path as appealing to those lizard-brain American Idol-watching popularity-contest voters. If we could distill election cycles down to a handful of things, chief among them would be “People Vote for the more interesting candidate” and “People vote for the fresher face” – Within the backdrop of age being a huge issue for >70% of American voters when polled, that rings even more truthful now.

So personally, I say we take the chance.

Aradina ,

Okay enjoy drowning I guess.

TokenBoomer ,

https://lemmy.world/pictrs/image/0aaf53b5-1cd8-4b85-97c0-01bd843cdcae.jpeg

Stay the course

Maggoty ,

Don’t look up!

Skydancer ,

I see the down votes, but I took this as a Wag the Dog reference. They’re pointing out just how terrible an idea it is for Biden and the democrats to keep trying to sleepwalk through this election while Trump and the republicans pull out all the rhetorical stops.

ryathal ,

It’s not too late now, but it’s absolutely too late in October when Biden needs to appear multiple times per day and across about 5 states. If he can’t do that, then he should step down now.

RustyShackleford ,
@RustyShackleford@programming.dev avatar

quit while there they’re ahead

Hugh_Jeggs ,

if these people could just get it through there their heads to quit while there they’re ahead

Fuck me that’s just fucking laziness innit?

Seasm0ke ,

Dont worry the DNC will find a way to blame Bernie for it

ShepherdPie ,

And lemmings and redditors will blame progressives for it.

goferking0 ,

it wouldn’t be an issue if people didn’t keep saying it

Which is just like ignoring/not testing for covid and calling it over

Omegamanthethird ,
@Omegamanthethird@lemmy.world avatar

I don’t blame people for wanting to distance from the topic. The problem with Biden isn’t his ability to lead and govern. It’s his image. Talking about it directly hurts his image. BUT it’s still a discussion that needs to be had.

It would be like Covid if talking about Covid also made it worse.

PsychedSy ,

I’m going to blame the people that have been trying to gaslight everyone into thinking that Biden was fine.

Omegamanthethird ,
@Omegamanthethird@lemmy.world avatar

He was fine. He has never sounded like this before. Just look at the State of the Union for what people were expecting.

This was him being unprepared and trying to remember statistics from 3 and a half years of accomplishments, with a cold, while running a country, while being 81. It reminded me of some bad interviews I’ve been in, honestly.

PsychedSy ,

Bullshit homie, he sounds like this all the time, it’s just progressing faster. They made up a new term to cover it up a few weeks ago and then grampa ran off in his bathrobe and CNN had to call some silver alerts.

For all the people that talked about how horrible cnn has been to Biden, they were cutting him off to help him. Look back on his ‘gaffes’. They’ve been bad for a long time.

Omegamanthethird ,
@Omegamanthethird@lemmy.world avatar

I literally don’t know what you’re talking about with bathrobes and silver alerts. What are you smoking?

PsychedSy ,

Never work or live near an old folk’s home?

Omegamanthethird ,
@Omegamanthethird@lemmy.world avatar

I don’t know what YOU are talking about with silver alerts. Or are you just bringing up irrelevant topics. Are you going to talk about burgers next?

PsychedSy ,

Explained it to another dude in the same thread.

I’m sure I could find a hamburder joke with Trump on the stage.

boatswain ,

I live 4 blocks from an old folks’ home and have no idea what you’re talking about.

PsychedSy ,

Fair enough. Bathrobe is the old trope of elderly people wandering around in, well, fuzzy slippers and a bathrobe.

A silver alert is an Amber Alert for old people.

I was referring to Biden with the first and CNN helping him when he got lost with the second.

Cocodapuf , (edited )

But we’re already past the primary period… Are we suggesting having a quick primary anyway? Who should we put in his place? I haven’t heard a single suggestion for who else to elect. Are we saying Harris should step in? Who should she run with?

Maggoty ,

Newsom; Whitmer; Pritzker; Buttigieg; Shapiro; Khanna; Klobuchar; Walz; Booker.

I even saw someone mention Wes Moore and I was reminded that he’s a pretty good moderate governor of Maryland now instead of “only” a West Point graduate and author.

Cocodapuf ,

Well, half of those were people who ran against Biden, so that makes sense.

I remember being impressed with Klobuchar, and incredibly impressed with Buttigieg (though sadly he’d lose a lot of the religious vote, sigh). I wish I liked Booker more… But yeah there are some acceptable options there, that’s a relief.

So yeah, lightning primary?

tamal3 ,

No mention anywhere of Warren… Did she fail too hard in the primaries?

Gosh I’d love to see her debate Trump. He would never agree to it though, as she’d rip him to logical pieces.

rwhitisissle ,

Warren is a woman and economically progressive and America hates people who are either of those things, let alone both.

Maggoty ,

No, in an election where age would be a larger issue than it already is I’m assuming anyone who would hit 80 in office is a non starter.

We need to be training up some younglings.

tamal3 ,

Wow, you’re right, I didn’t realize she was that old.

ZombiFrancis ,

Pritzker is the only name on there with the chops for it. Maybe Walz, but he is DFL so I can’t see the DNC even looking at him.

rwhitisissle ,

It’s like RBG all over again, if these people could just get it through there heads to quit while there ahead they could preserve a decent legacy, instead of tarnishing it by leading the way to a regressive order that overturns everything they’ve done.

This is one of the core problems of the Democrats: hubris. When Obama had a majority in the House and Senate, he could have easily pushed through a Supreme Court appointee to replace RBG. But she wouldn’t go. Because in her mind, there was no one qualified to fill her shoes. She was convinced that she was the GOAT and that to voluntarily step down when it was safe to do so would be an insult. This is coupled with the fact that Democrats were absolutely, completely certain that they would win every election for the presidency after Obama without trying and that the “coalition of the ascendant” would easily put Hillary into the White House, and then she could be the first female president in US history and have an easy PR win by replacing an aging female supreme court justice.

I’m willing to bet we have the the same problem here, but in one person: Biden probably thinks the Democrats could never field anyone for president better than him and that his victory is a lock without any real effort to campaign for it again.

Fun fact: the last time anything like this happened it was with Grover Cleveland. Cleveland was the 22nd president of the United States who lost his re-election bid the first time around, and then got re-elected to be the 24th president of the United States. We are officially in the second Gilded Age.

aleph ,
@aleph@lemm.ee avatar

Democrats have nobody to blame but themselves. They stayed mum for three and half years and now they’re reaping the whirlwind.

☝️

DancingBear ,

Stayed mum? They actively fought against allowing anyone to hold primaries.

Dkarma ,

But we did hold primaries and Biden won in a landslide

bamboo ,

Putin also wins by a landslide. It’s easy to do if you ban all the competition.

Omegamanthethird ,
@Omegamanthethird@lemmy.world avatar

Nobody noteworthy was competing and all of the elections were landslides. I understand wanting to go through the motions in all states, but it really made zero difference.

DancingBear ,

Nobody noteworthy? “Going through the motions”? I guess democracy is just like making love with some kind of boring spouse? Okay, fine by me just don’t blame me when I leave the presidential option blank in November if Biden and Trump are the only two options on the ballot. But I do live in a blue state, Jesus H Christ thank god I can vote my conscious.

Omegamanthethird ,
@Omegamanthethird@lemmy.world avatar

Weird, my conscience is to vote against the corrupt, fascist, rapist with a grudge against America. After dealing with Trump’s presidency and the aftermath, I can’t even imagine not voting for Biden. And I’m in a red state, so my vote definitely doesn’t matter.

DancingBear , (edited )

Well before this we had neoliberals I guess so…. But yes vote… even if you have to leave it blank, vote your conscious…… in a red state I don’t think I could live there, but vote regardless

DancingBear ,

Mmmmm, yea…. Mmmkay. No debates, no media coverage, rarely allowing any primary candidates on corporate media, I’m gonna have to give your statement a mostly false

njm1314 ,

They did? That’s weird I remember voting in them just like I do every 4 years.

Count042 , (edited )

You weren’t paying attention. Many states banned anyone else from the ballot, even though there wasn’t cause for that by the rules.

There were no debates (Something that would have given Democratic party members time to decide if they thought Biden was electable.)

Some states were told their delegates wouldn’t count.

There was no fair Democratic Party primary. If you think there was you were either not paying attention, or you didn’t want a fair primary in the first place.

This problem is a problem of the Democratic Part{EDIT}y’s own making.

RustyShackleford ,
@RustyShackleford@programming.dev avatar

This problem is a problem of the Democratic Parties Party’s own making.

Maggoty ,

Even Russia puts the opposition on the ballot. That wasn’t an election it was a roll call.

AdamBomb ,

I didn’t get to vote in a primary here in Florida

njm1314 ,

That’s cuz Biden ran unopposed.

AdamBomb ,

So that’s the point that DancingBear was making and I was reinforcing- as Democratic voters, we were not presented with a choice this cycle

DancingBear ,

You can generally vote in primaries every year where one is needed, not just every four years fyi, if you’re in to voting and all.

njm1314 ,

We’re pretty clearly talking about presidential primaries here buddy.

DancingBear ,

Sure but you specifically mentioned it so I wanted to say we can vote in primaries outside of presidential elections

njm1314 ,

Thank you for your pivotal contribution to the conversation.

DancingBear ,

Anything I can do to help with your circle jerk

aleph , (edited )
@aleph@lemm.ee avatar

That’s the point - they closed ranks and kept riding the Biden train whilst quietly hoping that no one would notice it was in danger of coming off the rails.

theintercept.com/2024/06/28/biden-debate-dnc/

Omegamanthethird ,
@Omegamanthethird@lemmy.world avatar

He has never sounded like that before and he has the record to show that he can do the job. Republicans tried to say he was on drugs because they heard him actually speak at the State of the Union.

There was no reason to expect him to sound like he did. If they do the second debate, I hope he doesn’t try to recall every single statistic and just stick to the big points. But Trump might just not debate like he did in the primaries. In fact, it would be stupid to give Biden a chance to recoup.

aleph ,
@aleph@lemm.ee avatar

Biden has been conspicuously avoiding speaking at unscripted public encounters for quite a while now, though, and reading from an autocue at SotU is a far cry from having to react on the fly and put together coherent arguments in response to moderator questions and Trump’s lies during a debate. I have the feeling Biden’s staff knew full well that the debate was going to be rough going into it.

Omegamanthethird ,
@Omegamanthethird@lemmy.world avatar

I don’t think they were expecting this at all. Otherwise they wouldn’t have had him recite such specific information. You could tell he was flustered. If they knew it was going to be like this, I think they would have done a completely different strategy.

I think the cold threw him off and they couldn’t pivot strategy. It should have been a focus on his image from the start. A few times where he laughed at Trump he looked good. In the after party he even sounded completely fine. That should have been the goal of the debate instead of reading receipts.

aleph ,
@aleph@lemm.ee avatar

deleted_by_author

    •
    Omegamanthethird ,
    @Omegamanthethird@lemmy.world avatar

    “Everyone has a plan until they get punched in the mouth.”

    I think the cold legitimately threw him off. Not that he was feeble from the cold. Just that it made him more easily flustered and he snowballed.

    I’ve also had interviews that I was “prepared for.” But trying to remember all the information at the moment was difficult. Hell, I was told one of my interviews was the best they had ever seen, and the last question had me flustered until I finally came up with my talking points after a minute.

    That’s what it felt like to me, a flustered man in a bad interview that snowballed.

    nondescripthandle , (edited )

    Really cool feeling when your state has primaries long after super Tuesday and the candidates were already mathematically locked in before you get a say. I swear I only get a chance to influence presidential primaries half the time or so. It’s strange to watch a ‘democracy’ keep moving when sometimes your voice doesn’t count because of where you’re from.

    Samvega ,

    when sometimes your voice doesn’t count

    Humans worship the powerful, not the mundane.

    nondescripthandle ,

    Then it’s simply not a democracy, yet I still often hear politicians, media pundits, and normal people claim it’s the best one. Where does the truth lie?

    Samvega ,

    Yes, the truth lies.

    nondescripthandle ,

    Perhaps it’s lying there because truth is dead.

    mojo_raisin ,

    The truth is that no system of rule is functional long term, anarchism is the only stable system, it worked for 200k years.

    So long as the state is how humans organize, there will be boom and bust cycles until either ecological collapse or invulnerable fascism brings us to a new terrible stable state.

    The only logical position (in the U.S.) is to vote blue to buy time in hopes that anarchism can be reached by other means.

    … Oh, not that kind of truth probably

    Grandwolf319 ,

    And people keep saying that democracy is at stake… dude, you guys don’t have it to begin with.

    Maggoty ,

    We need the primaries to all be on the same day. This isn’t the early 1900’s anymore. States that are getting left behind need to organize to just join super tuesday. The party would not survive disallowing that many delegates.

    card797 ,

    Biden drops out Trump wins. What is the point of this?

    addison ,

    The point is that there is now a credible fear that if Biden does not drop out, Trump wins.

    Replacing the candidate at the top of the ticket this late is a hail Mary, but it could bring unenthusiastic voters back into the Democratic tent.

    Dkarma ,

    And lose the incumbent bump? A wash at best

    Zaktor ,

    3/7 incumbent presidents since 1980 have lost. It’s indistinguishable from a coin flip. Whatever benefit incumbency holds in the presidency, it’s not strong.

    Guy_Fieris_Hair ,

    Trumps base is smaller, but passionate, they will show up. Biden doesn’t really have followers, he has people that are just glad that he isn’t Trump. But at this point it’s embarrassing to even vote for him for that reason… so people just won’t show up to vote at all. All they have to do is have a sentient human that can complete a sentence and the hate for Trump will prevail. For the love of God. Do something DNC or Trump it is.

    I just can’t believe everyone is acting all surprised that the dude that could barely complete a sentence when he was 77 didn’t get mysteriously better now that he’s 81. Who woulda thought?..

    We all know the DNC will do nothing, and Trump will win, and they are fine with it. Because they want to keep dragging this party to the right.

    girlfreddy OP ,
    @girlfreddy@lemmy.ca avatar

    That’s not guaranteed if Biden drops out before the DNC convention in August, where presumably another (possibly younger) candidate could be chosen.

    Montagge ,

    To get Trump to win so Project 2025 can happen

    DancingBear ,

    Not necessarily…… blue maga will support whoever they choose regardless and if they choose someone other than Biden they have a chance at the youth and uncommitted voters.

    Guy_Fieris_Hair , (edited )

    Trump wins if biden stays. I will vote for potato Biden before Trump, but I literally barely give a shit. The bar is literally so low and the democrats found a way to still struggle against a hated criminal. For the love of GOD, run someone else now. I will vote for anyone other than Trump but the LONG list of people that just want a sane person in there and currently won’t vote for either will probably show up if a sentient human was an option.

    New candidate, dems win. Sit around and do nothing, Trump wins. His smaller base is passionate. The democrats are pretty underwhelmed and embarrassed of Biden.

    girsaysdoom ,

    I think what everyone needs to realize is that it’s already too late. It’s been too late and it was too late months ago. There are no other options. The world will suck but will most definitely suck less than one being led by Trump. You have two effective choices, vote Biden or don’t. It’s unfortunately all we have at this point.

    Guy_Fieris_Hair , (edited )

    With that attitude. They could literally put ANYONE in there (other than Hillary) and they will win. ANYONE. Doesn’t matter how late it is. A vast majority HATE Trump and are embarrassed of Biden. Just give them someone they aren’t completely ashamed of. That’s it. That’s all they have to do. They don’t need years of campaigning. Just be able to complete a coherent sentence and don’t be a racist bigot. That is how low the bar actually is right now. Hell, Hillary would probably win this go around.

    girsaysdoom ,

    I’d agree with you, except that we’re in the dark timeline where the DNC has burned us hard by making dumb electoral decisions. We’re basically given another chance at 2016 where we have a democratic shoehorn vs a narcissistic authoritarian. I’m actually getting to the point where I regret not voting for Hilary because of how much of a shit show those years were.

    So, yes, I’d love to vote for someone else, preferably like Bernie, but it’s far too late to recampaign. Especially since it’s less than 5 months prior to actual elections. Given what was accomplished these past 4 years, I’d actually be okay with Biden if he would meaningfully do something to help Palestine.

    Guy_Fieris_Hair ,

    I’m not sure what about last night gave you the impression HE is capable of doing anything.

    timbuck2themoon ,

    The last three years did that. Idgaf about one bad debate.

    Guy_Fieris_Hair ,

    Just remember, there are tons of people around him that hear him act and talk the way he did last night and keep this all going. He talks to foreign leaders and loses his train of thought. He participates in security briefings and decides how to handle crisis while he cannot hold a conversation. That isn’t one bad debate, it is a result of him not having notes or interaction with his advisors. This was him demonstrating his actual mental capabilities. It was predictable by anyone who has paid attention. Also, name one thing he did over the past 4 years that wasn’t immediately blocked that isn’t just… not be Trump.

    timbuck2themoon , (edited )

    Biggest climate change law ever, forgave student loans, pardoned homosexual acts on the military, stood in picket lines, got railroad workers sick days, appointed a trust buster to the FTC.

    Plenty more. And he’s not trump. Got my vote and Anyone who isn’t a complete dumbass, their vote too. Don’t forget about who will pick new SCOTUS justices too.

    Guy_Fieris_Hair ,

    He forgave very few student loans. The first attempt was predictably blocked. The second attempt is Actually impossible to qualify for. I am a first responder. To qualify you have to have made on time payments through a qualified payment plan for 10 years. If you ever changed jobs that 10 year timer resets. And if you make on time payments for 10 years your loan would be paid off already anyway, we arent walking around with a doctorates. There are forums and forums of people trying to figure out how to qualify and no one does. It is all just posturing and pretending they tried. Everything else you said is a gimme and par for the course. Only thing is Trump would have been far more productive in the opposite direction. So there is that.

    Beetschnapps , (edited )

    I think you need to capitalize and repeat HILLARY a few more times to point out how logical and politically savvy you are.

    “I mean HILLARY could even make statements without being as ASHAMED as ANYONE. ANYONE! HILLARY could be literally ANYONE plus HATE! To be better than HILLARY people!“

    This is the incoherence you bring to the table. Maybe spice it up with the DNC being James Bond level super villains and telling everyone what to think?

    iHop_Femboy ,

    Lmao he only mentioned her twice, you’re talking about her more than he is

    Beetschnapps ,

    Lmao, the fuck? You laugh why dipshit?

    Why is she mentioned at all? Who cares if I say her name 3 times compared to 2.

    What’s the fucking difference if YOU think she has no relevance at all? Got anything relevant to add or just lmao?

    dragontamer ,

    Who?

    Kamala? She’ll lose to Trump.

    Newcom? Not even liked in California.

    Pete Buttigieg? LGBT rights are being wiped out right now because a huge upswing in recent homophobia and you think an openly gay candidate has a chance?

    You need to start listing names if you want this discussion to be taken seriously. There’s a reason why Biden was chosen in the first place, because no one could list a better choice. The same problem exists today.

    Just give them someone they aren’t completely ashamed of.

    People are surprisingly creative at being ashamed of Democrats. But are never ashamed of Trump. At some point, you need to just stop being so ashamed at the Democrat’s current choice: Biden.

    I recognize this is a tough time, but you need to seriously start listing names. I’m not a Democrat so I’m not going to be at the primary or convention or whatever. But I would like to see a strong Democrat party so that I can confidently vote against Trump in November. I don’t care if its Biden, Pete or whoever honestly. But this gnashing and wailing when you can’t even deliver a name in your post is annoying to me.

    skulblaka ,
    @skulblaka@sh.itjust.works avatar

    Literally every one of those names is one I would vote for if put on the ballot. The bar is that low. It is dangerously low, they could run anyone and people would show up to vote, red flags or not. We’re mostly interested in taking a loan to pay the piper at this point, a future catastrophe can be dealt with after we deal with the current catastrophe.

    dragontamer , (edited )

    Yeah, but you’d vote for Biden too.

    The question isn’t about who you or I’d vote for. The question is who’d “Joe Moderate” would vote for?

    And spoiler alert: “Joe Moderate” isn’t exactly a feminist or LGBT ally. “Joe Moderate” is the various citizens of Arizona, Pennsylvania, Georgia, Wisconsin, and Michigan who flipped from Red to Blue in 2020.

    So you’re saying Joe Moderate is going to vote for a Female Governor? An openly gay politician? Or the California man who is proudly pushing ACCII to force people to buy Electric Cars? I don’t think so.

    skulblaka ,
    @skulblaka@sh.itjust.works avatar

    Fuck sake, why do you have to be right?

    My immediate response was “well anyone who is paying attention absolutely would vote for one of them given the alternatives of Trump and Biden” but that’s exactly the point, most people aren’t paying enough attention. I can’t even argue with that. And the people whose vote we have to court the most are the fence sitters who definitely especially aren’t paying proper attention. Fuck.

    I don’t even have more to add to that, now I’m just depressed. Because you’re right, I WOULD vote for Biden anyway even if I hate it, I said so myself, so I’m not even the target audience here. And Joe Moderate is going to ratchet us three clicks further right just in order to attempt preventing even worse.

    On some level I definitely already knew all this but I have to say this is throwing it all into some pretty stark light.

    dragontamer ,

    Rest assured, Biden’s methodology has reached across the aisle and really solidified my support for him. I’m not liberal in the slightest and I recognize I’m probably a minority of people who considers themselves “conservative”. But Biden’s approach did reach out to me in a way that no other Democrat has.

    I think you’re underestimating Biden.

    That’s where my confusion comes in. I really don’t think Trump did very well on that stage, and you should instead be talking about how Trump literally defended January 6th to your cohort. Instead of a few missed lines and typical Biden blunders.

    Biden always sucked at these debate settings. Yes, he’s older and even worse at it, but Biden wasn’t really that good in 2020 either. None of this shit is new to Biden voters.

    Liberals really go hyperbolic and freak out at little things. Yall should learn from the Conservatives and I dunno… put a bit of Trust in the leader yall chose? Republicans have put too much faith in Trump, but Democrats consistently put too little faith in their leaders (and this entire episode of people calling on Biden to step down / be replaced is a continuation of this Democrat tradition).

    So Trump is a charismatic liar / Reality TV Star who uses his literal WWE experience to form a bullying debate style that’s popular amongst the US Public. You already knew that, right? How else did you think this would go? It went like this last time in 2020.

    Guy_Fieris_Hair ,

    Is Joe Moderate going to vote for an old man that can easily be legally declared incompetent to manage his own life, let alone an entire country? I doubt it.

    dragontamer ,

    Joe Biden stumbled but what the hell?

    Trump was the one talking in circles about immigrants and was literally unable to respond to the moderator’s questions.

    Biden’s age is showing, but Trump’s brain is turning into cheese. The difference is that Republicans proudly rally behind their cheese-brain candidate while yall scardy-cats backstab Biden the first chance yall get.

    Guy_Fieris_Hair ,

    Pretty sure Biden was asked about abortion rights and went on a rant about a woman murdered by an immigrant and then trailed off into nothingness.

    dragontamer ,

    The entirety of the 2nd half of the “Debate” had Trump talking about how Social Security is ruined by immigrants. Medicare ruined by immigrants. January 6th is ruined by immigrants.

    It was some fucking nonsense. And somehow, I go online and not a single Democrat in a discussion is pointing out this severe weakness of Trump.

    Guy_Fieris_Hair ,

    Because everyone, including his own base, knows he is a liar. It isn’t new and is honestly exhausting to talk about. Nobody fucking cares anymore. People are either not voting for him or they have already decided to disassociate from reality. Trump is too polarizing and Biden will not pull any votes from Trump. Biden needs to pull in people that are on the fence between voting for Biden or not voting at all. Debates will not pull anyone from Trump and are a waste of time. Unless he can do something in a debate that can convince fringe people to show up to vote, debates will only hurt him. And it very much hurt him. Now people realize the guy who could barely complete a sentence when he was 77 didn’t miraculously get better before he turned 81.

    dragontamer ,

    It isn’t new and is honestly exhausting to talk about.

    And yet talking about Biden’s advanced age is new and not exhausting to talk about?

    Because let me tell you one thing: the discussion you’ve chosen to get worked up about, plays to your political opponent.

    Guy_Fieris_Hair ,

    I’m not talking about his “Advanced age”, I’m talking about his inability to complete a coherent sentence. Also, I’m not sure who you are referring to being my political opponent. I am against a fucking criminal being president AND I am against a senile, demented, corpo being president. They are both my “political opponents” . If people keep falling in line, they will keep putting trash forward. I will vote against the (convicted) criminal in November. But I will not stop bitching loudly about the trash they give us. I’m not going to shut up because I aM sCaReD of TrUmP. That is all they have to count on. The democrats have already lost and I want them to know why.

    dragontamer ,

    Sure sure.

    So who’s your pick for President? Start listing names. Lets see if you get any traction.

    The democrats have already lost and I want them to know why

    I’m a Republican FYI. But I am an anti-Trump Republican. Do you think you can list a name of someone that both you and I’d vote for?

    Guy_Fieris_Hair ,

    I am a hard left liberal, me and you will never voluntarily vote for the same person.

    Are you telling me you will vote for Biden in his current state over Kamala or Newsom? Newsom I get. Even his own state doesn’t like him. I don’t like either of them, far too center for me, but I would take them over Biden currently. I am curious who there are more of, Republicans turned against Trump that are willing to vote for Bubble blowing Biden just to make sure Trump loses, but won’t vote for Kamala, or gen z ers and millennials who may or may not vote, hate Trump, but just realized the other option is literally a potato so why vote anyway, we’re fucked either way. Because I feel like the last one is far more common. Just give them someone sentient and they will show up to vote.

    dragontamer ,

    A vote for Biden is practically a vote for Kamala, so Kamala is something I’ve already accepted. I don’t think it will do much favors though because she’s much more divisive and I know plenty of racists who will NOT vote for Kamala and actively vote for Trump instead. So its not so much me you have to worry about Kamala, but some other fence-sitters I know of.

    If yall Democrats don’t think Biden is going to last all 4 years, then its all Kamala in the long run anyway.

    Newsom

    You’re going to lose Michigan over Advance Clean Cars II, which is so extreme its even banned hybrids by 2035 (despite the fact that many hybrids have more environmental friendliness than cars like Hummer EV).

    There’s a lot of stupid here, and honestly Biden has handled the situation far better and more reasonably than many Democratic Governors on issues like this.

    Guy_Fieris_Hair ,

    His clean car act would have a lot harder time passing nationally than in California. Either way, whatever law California makes regarding vehicles is what the entire country ends up following since they are the biggest market. So it’s already done. And he is hated nationally because of it already, so yeah, not him. I agree with a push for EV for new cars. But I own a classic, and my current cars are gassers, I’ve used a couple evs on the regular and they have gotten a LOT better recently. But they are not quite there yet battery wise for trucks and bigger vehicles. Hopefully the auto companies rush to satisfy this requirement will spark some serious innovation over the next decade so we can REALLY start filling the landfills with old batteries that will end up being a bigger problem than the smog. My next car will be an EV, but it will be a while before I can get an EV truck practical for towing my trailer for work or my trailer to camp.

    A vote for Biden is Kamala

    Yeah, I thought that last cycle, but it turns out they have no issue with him being incoherent.

    I am done with my rant now. My rage over this situation is because a lot of people over the last 5 years refused to aknowlage Bidens issues. If you ever said … hey guys? You see a problem here? They tell you to shut up or we’ll get Trump, he just has a stutter. Now all the sudden everyone is surprised Pikachu face. The democrats have had 6 years to find someone else but they decide to pander to the center when there is a lot more people further to the left that have been disenfranchised, but those people to the left are not profitable to pander to.

    dragontamer , (edited )

    I agree with a push for EV for new cars.

    I agree with more environmentally friendly regulations because I’m a moderate Republican.

    But EVs are not necessarily something I can get behind. The EV Hummer emits more carbon than a normal ICE Honda Civic. When you “Democrats” are so blinded by your EV love that you start harming the country and causing more carbon pollution from your 8000lb inefficient EVs… and yet write the laws to encourage them anyway, it becomes blatantly obvious that yall have also just been captured by the EV manufacturers rather than actually caring about the environment anymore.

    A serious environmental bill would be… well… like Biden’s bill. Something I can get behind and support because its actually based on environmental standards rather than blatantly handing out money to EV manufacturers.

    Biden has proven himself to be… well not a conservative… but at least someone who cares about the fundamentals of the regulations he pushes. He’s not someone I can 100% agree with, but he’s far better of a candidate than pretty much every other Democrat I’ve seen.

    If yall are going to push environmental standards, at least have them make sense. With how Newsom pushed his ACCII standard, its utterly shit.

    I agree that Biden doesn’t sound good on stage. But there’s actions, regulations, and details with how Biden actually governs. These details are far better than many other politicians.

    In any case, if the Democrats have lost faith in Biden, figure out a replacement before you get rid of him. He’s not as bad as the mass media thinks. There’s reasons why the far-right are thinking that the mass-media is “tricking them”, because we all see that Biden is actually someone who is moderate enough to see the details and nuances of the laws. But obviously, Biden can’t win this without Democrats support either, so whatever. Do what you want.

    It seems to me, from my more conservative/moderate perspective, that your best chance is to stick with Biden. But I don’t have a pulse on what the left feels overall.

    Definitely don’t cut Biden out for Kamala. Instead, just run Kamala more as a strong VP (possibly Presidential) candidate. People will be asking for more questions about Kamala moving forward.

    The plan for “Kamala” is that Biden resigns in January 2025 after the election. Its something everyone would innately understand (Biden stays just for the rest of the election, but we get Kamala). Its the underlying assumption of most voters anyway.

    I think that’s your next best bet. Because I don’t think Kamala can actually run and succeed on the top of the ticket. So having a bit of that weird indirection could be the last push you need to get the more racist to vote for her (albeit indirectly).

    Guy_Fieris_Hair , (edited )

    Yes, Kamala, Newsom, who the fuck ever. Biden isn’t on this ticket because there was nobody else, he is on this ticket because they shoehorned in a sock puppet. The poor old man at one point had a name for himself but since there are a bunch of people around him that wanted to profit off the name he made for himself, he has instead turned into a senile old man on the public stage. That is the stamp he leaves in the history books because he is surrounded by shitbags that are taking advantage of an old man who cannot cognitively make decisions for himself anymore.

    There was a laundry list of candidates pushed out for him last cycle and they refused to primary him this cycle, because they can take advantage of him, worst case scenario they get Trump to lower the bar further for 2028.

    I would vote for any one of those people a thousand times over putting Biden or the country through what is happening now. AND SO WOULD ANYONE ELSE. If you think centrist dems will vote for Trump because the other option is a gay man, that’s crazy. If you think the far left will vote for Trump over Kamala because she’s a cop, you’re crazy. One thing a LOT of people won’t vote for is an old man that can’t even fucking talk.

    I will vote for Biden if that’s all that’s offered purely because I can handle stupidity due to an actual mental deficit. I can’t handle the willful ignorance of facts and pure evil from Trump and his cronies. Most people (and I am not referring to the type of people cruising a politics sub) just won’t fucking vote.

    dragontamer ,

    If you think centrist dems will vote for Trump because the other option is a gay man, that’s crazy. If you think the far left will vote for Trump over Kamala because she’s a cop, you’re crazy.

    Its not centrist dems who are in charge of this situation. Its Joe “Independent” who kinda-sorta is flirting with Ron DeSantis’s Don’t Say Gay bill and has eaten 8 years of anti-Democratic women propaganda from the right. Kamala is a difficult to pronounce name and she ain’t exactly white looking. My racist buddies don’t like her face or how she talks.

    Honestly, I think Kamala has a chance vs Trump directly. She’s much more of a “fighter” type and I actually think her lawyer background would keep her more witty than both Trump and Biden. But you’re severely mistaken about the nature of Kamala’s problem as a Presidential top-of-the-line leader of the Democrats.

    People in the USA are racist fucks, and the moderates who flip the vote are “mildly racist” (not enough to say they’re against Kamala or Clinton on womanhood alone, but instead use weasel words like “Not strong enough” or “Bad politics for Russia”, etc. etc.).

    The main benefit we anti-Trumpers have going for us (note: I’m not a liberal), is that you Liberals have +4 more years off GenZ entering the voting pool and Conservatives have -4 years of Baby Boomers dying off.

    GenZ / Youth Vote is famously finicky but if everyone just votes the same as 2020, this is all quite in Biden’s favor actually. Do you think Biden’s performance yesterday was truly so bad that “Joe Moderate” is flipping over to Trump now?

    I don’t think so. Add the GenZ (however tepid their turnout will be) and we got this.

    PsychedSy ,

    That’s the fucking point. You don’t have a choice. They decide. You vote for who you choose. Hope you don’t have a problem with that or you’re a fascist.

    Guy_Fieris_Hair ,

    “Choose” is used losely in this sentence too.

    PsychedSy ,

    It’s pretty bad…yeah.

    Lucidlethargy ,

    Honestly… An unknown challenger from EITHER side may actually sweep this election. Both candidates are hated by their constituents more than any other president I’ve seen in living memory.

    Trump has the Republicans by the balls, but Biden doesn’t. I fully support this, if the right candidate can be found. The DNC won’t choose the right candidate, though… They are incompetent idiots.

    card797 ,

    The really fucked up thing is that the challenger wouldn’t be allowed onto every state ballot. The system is so tightly rigged its unbearable.

    Xyre ,

    This is how Bernie can still win! /s

    In the off chance they do replace him, they’re going to force the worst possible candidate on us (Kamala?). Because what else are you going to do, let the bad guy win?

    girlfreddy OP ,
    @girlfreddy@lemmy.ca avatar

    Why would Kamala be the worst candidate?

    ganksy ,
    @ganksy@lemmy.world avatar

    She’s not worse than Biden but not great. He should have chosen Stacey Abrams.

    _haha_oh_wow_ ,
    @_haha_oh_wow_@sh.itjust.works avatar

    She seems vague and even incoherent a lot of the time, I’m not so sure she’s better.

    ganksy ,
    @ganksy@lemmy.world avatar

    Stacey or Kamala?

    _haha_oh_wow_ ,
    @_haha_oh_wow_@sh.itjust.works avatar

    Kamala

    ganksy ,
    @ganksy@lemmy.world avatar

    Yeah hard sell on the whiney voice too

    Aphelion ,

    Her history as a prosecutor in California makes her significantly worse. She’s personally locked up a lot of POC for drug possession.

    Xyre ,

    I think Tammy Duckworth would’ve been a good choice.

    ganksy ,
    @ganksy@lemmy.world avatar

    She would have been such a great choice. Completely unassailable from all sides and sharp as a tack.

    Xyre ,

    A bland and unprincipled candidate whose positions shift based on polling numbers. Not to mention her prosecutorial background and close proximity to SF corruption scandals makes her an easy target.

    Count042 ,

    Everyone hates her for very good reasons.

    There is a reason California didn’t vote for her.

    KevonLooney ,

    Why do people just go on the internet and tell lies like this? California elected her attorney general for 8 years and senator once.

    WanderingVentra ,

    They might be talking about her primary run for President specifically, but she had dropped out way before then I’m pretty sure. That is, I am not sure if California even had a chance to vote for her. It’s one of the parts that suck about US primaries and being in a late state. Sometimes you don’t even get a chance to vote for the person you wanted to vote for before they drop out.

    lemmeout ,

    What are those very good reasons? I really don’t know.

    grue ,

    Her background is as a “tough on crime” (read: shitty on civil rights) prosecuting attorney.

    ryathal ,

    She was incredibly unpopular when she ran in the primary. Her campaign failed well before Biden was the heir apparent.

    JJROKCZ ,

    She’s not white and female, those reasons alone mean she’s lost over a quarter of the nation.

    Death_Equity ,

    That portion of the country wouldn’t vote for any Democrat anyways.

    hightrix ,

    Running Kamala would be making the same mistake they made back in 2016. She is polarizing, and extremely unlikeable. Anyone that worked with her or her department when she was in law in CA has nothing but bad things to say about her.

    Running Kamala would be giving Trump a second term.

    originalucifer ,
    @originalucifer@moist.catsweat.com avatar

    It would be newsom

    Xyre ,

    It feels like he’s inevitable at this point. 🙁

    nickwitha_k ,

    I really hope not. He is as corpo as it gets, shielding PGE from actual consequences.

    ikidd ,
    @ikidd@lemmy.world avatar

    Which honestly, he needs corpo support to get nominated and elected, since this is an oligarchy.

    bobburger ,

    Newsome would have to resign as Governor and I'm not sure he wants to do that for a long shot presidential campaign.

    Newsome polls very poorly against Trump and he also isn't very popular in his home state as Governor.

    Count042 ,

    At that level, Kamala is hated by her home state as well.

    mysticpickle ,

    Jesus fuck no. He’s basically Hillary 2.0

    originalucifer ,
    @originalucifer@moist.catsweat.com avatar

    and joe biden isnt? lateral move

    WanderingVentra ,

    Not worth the risk to lose his governorship for a shot in the dark. I don’t know why the Democrat Party hasn’t been building alternatives for the last 4 years. Hell, I only recall seeing Harris when she was yelling at poor immigrants to stay away. They failed this country.

    big_slap ,

    “reflection is needed”

    I hate being pessimistic, but they’re gonna drag out “reflecting” for so long that they will lose the election.

    if our elected officials are actually serious, they better act quickly on this because yesterday was extremely embarrassing. time will tell.

    KevonLooney ,

    Biden’s big problem in the debate was that, for a few moments, he mumbled a confused answer that sounded like Donald Trump.

    homesweethomeMrL ,

    It was a no-win situation. The DNC gave in - once again - to their republican-lite mindset of ‘capturing undecided voters’ and agreed to get socked in the face , twice, for absolutely no gain and everything to lose.

    DNC consultants have always been morons, but now they’re morons-from-the-90s who still don’t understand what’s changed.

    kromem ,

    Having a presidential election without debates would have been a big step back and loss for American democracy.

    We shouldn’t champion erosion of democratic institutions when it helps our side of the ticket.

    And generally, if eroding democratic institutions helps your ticket, it’s a red flag about your ticket.

    homesweethomeMrL ,

    Having “debates” be this ridiculous mud-wrestling that only benefits trump or another conman is the big step back and the loss to democracy.

    They are apparently unable to create a forum in which a position can be taken and defended with facts and reason. UNABLE. Because the republiQans are fielding a demented sociopath and a compulsive liar.

    The format is beyond broken, and there isn’t a way to fix it when one party has no intention - never had any intention to follow the rules, or decorum, or common decent behavior.

    We found that out eight years ago. I can’t believe they walked right into it again.

    kromem ,

    Literally any half competent debater could have torn Trump apart up there.

    The failure wasn’t the moderators but the opposition candidate to Trump letting him run hog wild.

    If Trump claims he’s going to end the war in Ukraine before even taking office, you point out how absurd that claim is and that Trump makes impossible claims without any substance or knowledge of diplomacy. That the images of him photoshopped as Rambo must have gone to his head if he thinks Putin will be so scared of him to give up.

    If he says hostages will be released as soon as he’s nominated, you point out it sounds like maybe there’s been a backroom tit-for-tat deal for a hostage release with a hostile foreign nation, and ask if maybe the intelligence agencies should look into that and what he might have been willing to trade for it.

    The moderators have to try to keep the appearance of neutrality, but the candidates do not. And the only reason Trump was so successful in spouting BS and getting away with it was because his opposition had the strength of a wet paper towel.

    homesweethomeMrL ,

    Literally any half competent debater could have torn Trump apart up there.

    He’s “debated” a large number of half-competent people in primaries and post-convention. Which one tore him apart? Examples please.

    The failure wasn’t the moderators but the opposition candidate to Trump letting him run hog wild.

    While the visual of hog-tying trump by a cowboy-hatted Biden is fun, it’s simply not his job to chase the gish. That’s why trumps insane rambling works; it’s not possible to practically address each batshit claim or outright lie. It’s just not. Biden’s already got the job of presenting and defending his own platform.

    It is absolutely the moderators’ job to check him and a failure to do so means not only that it’s wide open Crime Time for trump but that the proceedings themselves lend authority to his lies.

    The moderators have to try to keep the appearance of neutrality, but the candidates do not.

    The appearance of neutrality? As opposed to just neutrality? Okay, well either way, again - no. The moderators have to acknowlege reality and remind the shit-talkers that they can’t say what they just said because it’s bullshit. And once again, they can’t do that with trump because he’s a compulsive liar who is incapable of acknowledging anything but his own reality.

    And the only reason Trump was so successful in spouting BS and getting away with it was because his opposition had the strength of a wet paper towel.

    Spouting BS and getting away with it is the entirety of what trump does. He’s not an authority on anything, he can’t function as any sort of manager without a stadium’s worth of assistance, and - really, hear me now - he is utterly. incapable. of not lying.

    Nothing will stop him from trying to babble nonsense and if the moderators, effectively the referees, the arbitrators, refuse to hold him to any standard, there’s no other outcome than to watch helplessly at his idiot spewhole as it disgorges lie after lie after lie.

    Biden blew it, yes, but if you think there was something to be gained by engaging with trump, i encourage you to consider the simple fact that trump is not able to acknowledge truth if it does not directly benefit him, and any attempt to do so will be met with more lies, more vitriol, and no one will succeed.

    It’s unconscionable that anyone at this late date would even consider that even a remote possibility.

    Lucidlethargy ,

    Seriously, they are so far behind their conservative counterparts is not even funny. They need to hire better PR specialists, and marketing teams.

    Not_mikey ,

    That’s a pretty fatal mistake when your average person is only gonna watch a 10 second clip of the debate.

    KevonLooney ,

    That’s it for me. I’m not voting for anyone who sounds confused for 10 seconds. Unless maybe they ran against someone who sounds confused for 10 years, but only in that circumstance.

    WanderingVentra ,

    The problem is that there was no live fact checking. Wtf can you do against a constant Gish Gallop of blatant lies? Even if they drugged him, I’m not sure what he could’ve done with that debate format.

    PsychedSy ,

    He does this shit consistently and has been for a couple years. It wasn’t one fucking answer in the debate. Christ. We are so fucked.

    catloaf ,

    It’s far too late for that, jackasses.

    Lucidlethargy ,

    It is, and it isn’t… People love drama, and nothing about Trump’s stance is based on tradition or stability.

    The right replacement could theoretically sweep the election. I just don’t trust the DNC with this… So I guess I agree with you in the end.

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