There have been multiple accounts created with the sole purpose of posting advertisement posts or replies containing unsolicited advertising.

Accounts which solely post advertisements, or persistently post them may be terminated.

masquenox ,

Defeated Mildly annoyed CEOs are now conceding hybrid working is here to stay

FTFT.

They have their wealth and their heads are still attached to their necks - there is nothing “defeated” about them.

zkeesh ,

defeated broke millennial more disaffected for not being able to get past article paywall :(

a_wild_mimic_appears , (edited )

here you go mate

btw, this here is a very nice extension called web archives

Clbull ,

Worked for a multinational where they pushed their shared services centre into a 3 day/week RTO from fully remote, thinking this would improve things. It only exacerbated the staff turnover rate which at its peak hit 95% in some departments (I worked in Accounts Payable.)

When strategies like lengthening contractual notice periods, buying pizza on crunch weeks, extending RTO further and even a payrise (that was still below market rate) didn’t work… They outsourced hundreds of jobs to India and laid tonnes of people off.

I escaped redundancy and went into a higher commercial finance role (internally) with a considerable pay rise. It’s almost fully remote. The culture shock is baffling.

RalphFurley ,

My wife works in a large suburban office park off a major highway. The company designs hardware so obviously they have people in the workshop on-site etc, but you could remove three of their office buildings and keep those people at home. She also flies out from the east coast to the west coast twice a year just to sit in a conference room for two days straight… it’s like no one has ever heard of Zoom.

I’ve been working from home for nearly a decade and a half now. It has enabled me to keep my job after moving halfway across the country. I have dinner ready when the wife and kids get home, the laundry done, and can go for a jog at the local park for a few laps when I want to and yet I still get shit done and do a great job.

It just absolutely baffles me that CEOs aren’t chomping at the bit to downsize their office space footprints, get off those leases or sell off their properties, and let everyone work from home.

some_guy ,

I have dinner ready when the wife and kids get home, the laundry done, and can go for a jog at the local park for a few laps when I want to and yet I still get shit done and do a great job.

You are so much more not-lazy than I am. Going for a jog after work? I salute you.

tamal3 ,

If I don’t plan to do stuff after work then my weekends end up being a rush of errands and housekeeping.

slurpeesoforion ,

Long term leases and supporting commercial real estate, which they are likely invested.

orcrist ,

Did we actually believe any of them at the time? I think they already knew that remote work was going to continue, and they were trying to get as much money out of the transition as possible.

One problem was that they had wasted real estate, and they had to justify it to shareholders. So they pretended that they were going to bring everyone back to the office.

If you think about it from a medium run perspective, of course employers are going to want more remote work because then they don’t have to pay for utilities or parking or rent or buildings. Of course this depends on the exact setup, but for many businesses it was clear from the beginning of the pandemic where things were going to go. And if we want to get even more cynical, we can point out that when your labor pool spans the country or even the world, you have a greater ability to underpay employees.

anon_8675309 ,

They want remote work so they can get the cheapest labor. Be on guard for average salaries to start dropping.

Colonel_Panic_ ,

You guys are getting paid at your job?

kelargo ,

I’ve been outsourced more than once, while working in an office.

interdimensionalmeme ,

If you can do your job from home and your job can be taught under 5 years. Then 5 indians guys can do it together for 10 times less total than you cost. And that will be the case until what happenned to China happens to India, which should take roughly 40 years.

corsicanguppy ,

We found this to be NOT true. Half, at best. But wait.

So it’s 1/10 in its heyday, but when you pay someone 1/10th salary in a land of 1/50th salary, that person becomes a target. They look comparatively rich, their house gets repaired, their kids show the signs of an economic bump, etc. So now your guy can get robbed or kidnapped, so you need a driver and protection. And the kids need to go to a different school with a gate. And the spouse needs to get back and forth safely. And then a better house, moving to a gated community or apartment, with more guards. And suddenly you’re paying for company housing, schooling, cars, drivers, tutors, guards, cameras/surveillance, cooks, maids, deliveries, and even extended family is moving in for safety.

So it’s still a bargain on paper, but then it’s just half. They don’t mention this because it’s hard to sell an idea when 80% of it is eroded.

Your employee or team now works on the other side of the world, with a different culture and management style from what you’re used to with Americans, different communications and workflow, and everything’s still around the world so it’s a day’s delay for everything.

The culture and work environment has trained some regions to NEVER admit they don’t know something; just nod, smile, and try to figure it out with confidence. Dunning-kruger be damned, sometimes that’s not a good way to do something in my field, which is incredibly technical. We can’t even educate the locals on risks of bad supply chains (curl|sh anyone? Flatpacks and CPAN and NPM and composer? Find out why these are risks) and doing so with the different “never say you don’t understand or you’re fired” environment is an added challenge. “Did you check for compliance?” will only ever get a “Yes”, even if you don’t mention which standard.

So your management - especially in offshores - needs an entirely different mindset and workflow, and you need to have people to check on the compliance and readiness and completeness who will say when it’s not ready because they’re not gonna be fired for it. This kind of thing surprised us and it will surprise the "I just wanna save money and this guy said 1/10th! " crowd. It’s not “you get what you pay for”, so don’t misunderstand; it’s just different. And if you can cope with all the differences and don’t freak out that you’re not saving so much for same-same work, it’s … an idea. In my case, the offshored staff slowly shrunk until we moved the offshoring to Poland.

Alph4d0g ,

The most cynical view is likely the right one when trying to understand management decisions. They come with disingenuous anecdotes rather than hypotheses that can be falsified by data and real measurable transparent business outcomes.

RagingRobot ,

Yeah but we wanted to work from home not hybrid bullshit. This story is pandering like we won but they are still forcing me to go to an office every week for no good reason. This is just propaganda. The whole conversation in the thread has even shifted from talking about working at home full time to hybrid being ok. Insane

mPony ,

hear hear. Offices are outmoded, office managers are outmoded, paying for parking is outmoded.

All of it is horseshit, and like horseshit should be deposited indiscriminately and walked away from without looking back.

nexusband ,
@nexusband@lemmy.world avatar

I don’t know why you think that’s all propaganda, i personally like hybrid work a lot more as well. I like my office, i like being able to go for a coffee with my colleagues and so on. I do like working from home as well - but i’m totally okay with being 1-2 days in the office. However, we do have people working 90% from home - they have to come in to the office though for various things they have to do. Printing large format plans, etc, etc. You can’t just assume 100% home full time works for everyone and shift the goalpost.

RagingRobot ,

I think it should be a choice not 100% at all. I’m personally upset because I was told it was ok to be fully remote so I adjusted my life then once it wasn’t convenient for my company anymore they changed the rules on me and everyone else and gaslighted us all about the real reason.

nexusband ,
@nexusband@lemmy.world avatar

Well, okay, that’s understandable then…and pretty shitty

TheEighthDoctor ,

And I love not even knowing where my office is, different strokes…

CosmicCleric ,
@CosmicCleric@lemmy.world avatar

Yeah but we wanted to work from home not hybrid bullshit. This story is pandering like we won but they are still forcing me to go to an office every week for no good reason. This is just propaganda. The whole conversation in the thread has even shifted from talking about working at home full time to hybrid being ok. Insane

The comment I’m replying to needs to be upvoted much more than it is.

RagingSnarkasm ,

Rage on, fellow rager.

interdimensionalmeme ,

Going to the office once a week is one thing the Indian guys can’t do. Love it don’t fight it, unless you have a workable solution to end capitalism or globalism.

interdimensionalmeme ,

Going to the office once a week is one thing the Indian guys can’t do. Love it don’t fight it, unless you have a workable solution to end capitalism or globalism.

interdimensionalmeme ,

Going to the office once a week is one thing the Indian guys can’t do. Love it don’t fight it, unless you have a workable solution to end capitalism or globalism.

interdimensionalmeme ,

Going to the office once a week is one thing the Indian guys can’t do. Love it don’t fight it, unless you have a workable solution to end capitalism or globalism.

BradleyUffner ,

Capitalism ended during the pandemic? Who knew?

istanbullu ,

A smart CEO can downsize the office space and save money, thereby increasing his profits.

Mikelius ,

The problem is they signed long office space leases and breaking out of them is very expensive, plus they get tax breaks for driving foot traffic to commercial areas. Not that they would ever admit that is the reason instead if a bullshit “team spirit” diatribe excuse.

frezik ,

Considering it all started during the pandemic, a lot of those leases are going to come up for renewal soon.

bufalo1973 ,
@bufalo1973@lemmy.ml avatar

They can rent the space to other businesses as “temporary office”.

Heavybell ,
@Heavybell@lemmy.world avatar

Subletting is a thing.

matlag ,

They’re not “defeated”. They got exactly what they wanted. People leaving without having to lay them off through attrition.

Now that they think they have “right-sized” their workforce at no cost, they nicely offer to concede hybrid working to keep the rest of their employees.

BonesOfTheMoon ,

I offered to work from home yesterday because I have bronchitis and no voice, so I told my manager it was that or I go off sick and stay there until I deem I feel better, that half a loaf was better than none, and she said “well I don’t want to set a precedent”, so I told her that I was sick then and won’t be back until I feel better. I’m the only one who can do my job, so she’s right fucked. She’s like an alien wearing a skin suit trying to pretend to human.

jkrtn ,

“I don’t want anyone to realize they can work just as effectively from home. Sure it saves them gas and commute time, but it just doesn’t pump my ego if I cannot micromanage in person.”

BonesOfTheMoon ,

Precisely. So she shot herself in the foot and I had a day to recover. I might call off Monday too.

pythonoob ,

You should

BonesOfTheMoon ,

I’m at urgent care right now actually to try to get some better puffers or a nebulizer or something. I might just.

Esqplorer ,

The manager doesn’t get to make the decision. She’s probably going to have to go argue with her manager that also likely has no control. Stand your ground, they don’t want to fight on this hill. -source, a people manager of hybrid teams at a company that insisted on on-site.

BonesOfTheMoon ,

Her manager would say yes and not care. It’s my direct manager just being micro managery.

Esqplorer ,

Some directors (or whatever manager managers are called in your pyramid) like to pretend to be the good guy to individuals and force their intermediaries to look like the assholes. Middle management sucks.

RagingRobot ,

Seems like she did set a precedent anyways haha just a worse one than before

some_guy ,

I’ve had a personal policy of not working from home when I’m sick, even before the pan. I want solid recovery time because experience has taught me that doing anything else just keeps me sick longer. Take all the time you need, even if you only need it a little bit but could otherwise power through. She put herself and you in this situation. Reap all the recovery time needed to return at 100%.

BonesOfTheMoon ,

She has understaffed us to a criminal degree all because she gets a bonus if she comes in under budget. You are correct, I will take all the time I need. I had to go to urgent care last night for a nebulizer so I’m definitely still not well, it’s actually resolving pneumonia it turns out.

some_guy ,

Hope you feel better.

BonesOfTheMoon ,

Thank you!

MagicShel ,

There are a lot of great ones in here, but there’s another perspective I think should be added. For a long time, employees have been commoditized. We’re resources. Interchangeable. And that gives companies tremendous power.

WFH puts us on more even footing. There are entire cities supported by a single industry or even company. Now we aren’t limited geographically in who we can work for. If you’re toxic to work for, we can leave. It saps the power of the leadership to say “my way or the highway.”

I don’t think this is the secret underlying reason. I agree it’s real estate values that are mainly driving it, but I think this is absolutely part of it. Toxic leaders (and every company has them) are finding people are less willing to tolerate their bullshit because they aren’t over a barrel to the same degree. Still need universal healthcare to really break their back.

jkrtn ,

Yeah for quite some time I have been saying labor is priced artificially low. All of the barriers to finding a new job while working. All the risks of even short-term unemployment. Workers are already fucked by the power imbalance but without any liquidity in the labor market it’s so much worse. WFH adds liquidity, they hate it.

Semi_Hemi_Demigod ,
@Semi_Hemi_Demigod@lemmy.world avatar

I’m curious if the move to large corps investing in residential properties is due to the collapse of value in the commercial market.

MagicShel ,

Me too. That’s a good question.

RBWells , (edited )

We do need universal healthcare absolutely, take that out of the labor package but WFH I think will only be beneficial in the short term (for employees - I do think it beneficial for the environment) it’s a shorter step from WFH to outsourcing to get the cheapest labor cost. I see this happening even at my company, an event management company so we are all about in person stuff - we lost an accountant and they wouldn’t let us get a replacement, already we have the infrastructure to work from home so they said “no but you can have a consultant who works in India, she can do it cheaper.”

Not that they couldn’t have done this anyway, but in this particular case, they wouldn’t have done. WFH opened that door for this company.

Semi_Hemi_Demigod ,
@Semi_Hemi_Demigod@lemmy.world avatar

That sort of move has been threatening the tech sector since the early 2000s and it hasn’t happened yet. Yes, some jobs moved overseas, but the timezone and language differences mean the ROI isn’t as big as a spreadsheet that accounts for salary says. Having to stay at work until 8pm and meet with the team in India at 8am their time isn’t going to be nearly as productive as meeting with people within a couple timezones.

imgcat ,

“we do need”? Because everyboby is murican oh the whole Internet

CosmicCleric , (edited )
@CosmicCleric@lemmy.world avatar

but WFH I think will only be beneficial in the short term (for employees - I do think it beneficial for the environment) it’s a shorter step from WFH to outsourcing to get the cheapest labor cost.

I hate to break it to you, but as someone who was self-employed and doing contracting work throughout most of his career, I can’t tell you how many times I was replaced by remote/offshore Indian programmers, over the decades, for cost reasons. Was definitely going on way before Covid and WFH, and should not be a reason why to fear/stop WFH.

JustAnotherRando ,

I’ve also seen the opposite happen - Bean counters think out sourcing to India will save lots of money, then they end up paying a more expensive us consulting company or independent consultant to come and clean up a mess, then they have to hire in house devs to maintain the code. Most of the out sourcing groups I’ve interacted with had a mentality of "we’ll do what was explicitly asked for and not a single thing more, and if we hit a roadblock, we’ll call it out and stop work until someone state side figures it out. And I can’t really fault them for the mentality - they know they’re being used because they’re cheaper labor, they don’t have any sense of ownership of the code, and when they develop stronger skills, they leave for a better opportunity.
I know there are strong devs in India, but I don’t think they usually end up in the out sourcing companies.

CosmicCleric ,
@CosmicCleric@lemmy.world avatar

I’ve also seen the opposite happen

Yep, that too. Made a lot of my consulting money fixing problems/issues that were created from overseas workers.

I know there are strong devs in India, but I don’t think they usually end up in the out sourcing companies.

No, they don’t. At least I’ve never seen them, and I’ve worked on a lot of projects. You get what you paid for.

FlyingSquid ,
@FlyingSquid@lemmy.world avatar

I worked hybrid 18 at home, 22 at the office and it sucked.

It showed me three things:

• It showed me that I was far more productive when I was at home and I was comfortable and not distracted.

• It showed me that I was coming into the office for absolutely no logical reason (even while there, all discussion was via Slack and Zoom).

• It showed me that the company’s leadership was incompetent.

This wasn’t even a ‘we paid for the space, we have to use it’ issue. This was an office job at a light industrial facility where no one had to be in the office. If they didn’t have us come in, they could have knocked down the office area and put in another line or two. Just incompetence.

Ookami38 ,

I treat office days as social days for exactly this reason. I know I’m not getting anything done, there are too many distractions, so I MUST be being forced to come into this disaster zone for one reason - to recharge. So that’s what I do.

FlyingSquid ,
@FlyingSquid@lemmy.world avatar

The only way I got anything done in the office was to wear noise-canceling headphones all the time. At which point, why bother coming in? I couldn’t hear anyone anyway.

jjjalljs ,

I told my boss that I get less done in the office. The temperature is always wrong. The monitors aren’t as good as what I have as home. There’s distractions. So many distractions. Sales guys are loud. People walking up to you. You can’t ignore a person standing next to you like you can ignore a slack message.

I told him I’d go in, but it would be a day of bullshitting and not doing much work.

Fortunately, he hasn’t really pushed the issue since. If the CEO gets the idea in his head again it’s going to be conflict.

What I’d really like to do is form a union, but labor in the US is extremely weak.

root_beer ,

I’m pretty lucky, in my industry, remote work has become the norm, so much so that my previous employer ended up closing the local office where I worked when I first started because [1] most of our colleagues were all over the country and [2] nobody thought there was a point to going back. I’m looking for a new job, and every prospect I’ve checked out so far is doing the same, almost fully remote. It just doesn’t make any sense to do otherwise.

eardon ,

There’s always a push, we just need to push back harder.

S_204 ,

It seems like they pushed and there was nothing there to push because everyone had left. This is a case where the worker had options and it’s nice to see them use that to their advantage and encourage changes.

r0ertel ,

Whilei agree with you wholeheartedly, I don’t know how without risking job security. I’ve been interviewing for any position that matches my qualifications and is listed as remote even if the pay is reduced, but what message does one person send? Without a concerted effort, the message is weak if it is even heard. At least in my job sector, the C-suite is fully sold that AI will allow a reduction in the workforce and therefore costs and they’re hedging their bet now by reducing the workforce to pay for AI. Unionize? I can’t even sell the idea within my whole family, how could I sell it to a majority of my work peers? I’m not that charismatic. I’ll be the second one to sign up if I do find talk of it at my employer.

9point6 ,

ITT people with drastically different ideas of what hybrid is.

Why do I feel like the next phase of this is changing the expectations of hybrid to be more like “9 in the office, 1 day from home”

young_broccoli ,

Defeated?
Wasn't the aim full WFH?

SonnyVabitch ,

Hybrid is a compromise that makes no sense to either party. The company still has to maintain an expensive office while being limited to the talent pool within commutable distance. The employee still has to waste countless (albeit fewer) hours travelling while being limited to job opportunities within ~20 miles of their residence.

DacoTaco , (edited )
@DacoTaco@lemmy.world avatar

Hybrid does make sense. There are people who work better in an office ( like myself ) and there are people who are better working from home ( like my coworker ). The company i work for believes hybrid is the way to go so that you can supply an office for people like me, but also hire people who work remotely. However, nobody is saying you need to have an office that can house 100% of you employees. 60% is good enough as not everyone will be in the office at the same time. Money saved!

That said, some meetings are better to have in person so once in a while a required in person meeting is needed.

I believe in the words of my company : everyone, everywhere. And that includes an office or, which has happened, from working from spain, germany or thailand which are all remote locations in no way connected with the company. These were people who legit lived abroad or were looking after a vacation home of a friend

Kecessa ,

You mention 60% minimum, the second there’s a minimum then you can’t hire employees living far from an office or if you do you create two classes of employees.

Why should I RTO 60% of the time if they are ready to let others with the same job RTO 0% if the time? Just because I got unlucky and they happen to have an office less than X km away from where I live? How come I’m not allowed to move somewhere further away and get the same exemption then?

We call that discrimination and I’m not even getting into how it impacts women and POC more than white guys to have to RTO.

Ookami38 ,

Re-read that post. They didn’t say 60% of the time they said office capacity should be 60% of the workforce at minimum.

You can make more coherent arguments arguing the actual words the other guy said.

Kecessa ,

Just read too quickly, sorry princess

Ookami38 ,

Well, slow it down before posting eh?

Kecessa ,

Or maybe OP edited their comment (they did) and that’s not what it said at first? Who knows? 🤷

Ookami38 ,

Whatever keeps you happy, man.

DacoTaco , (edited )
@DacoTaco@lemmy.world avatar

Last time im going to comment at this, This will have no use to explain to you but hey, im going to try anyway.
No, the minimum is not set to force people to go the office. Its so people like myself, who work better in an office, to have a spot when needed. You are reading what you want, not what im saying.

Ookami38 ,

Fuckin hell guy. Can NO ONE in this thread read? Go back and reread my post, I’m literally clarifying that exact thing to the other dude.

Tf is with reading comprehension??

SupraMario ,

Congratulations you just cut your available employee pool down to…local access again. Hybrid is pointless and a waste of space and resources for less.

No meetings require in person. Get a white board and a camera if you can’t do in person meetings. It’s 2024, not 1975.

DacoTaco ,
@DacoTaco@lemmy.world avatar

No i didnt. You seem to have missed the spot where i said we hired and had people work remotely from completely different countries. I may have not mentioned the in person meetings are preferred in person, but can be done remotely was well by those that want to work remotely and not be in the office. However, some meetings have gravitas to them and are preferred in person. And im not talking about once a week or w/e. It all depends on the team workflow, type of job etc etc.

Ive worked on projects that were 100% remote that ended well, but was working on a project recently that was going so bad that a (preferred) in person meeting was requested because a full day of body language reading while discussions were ongoing, was required. If a person lived far away ( which wasnt the case here ) then that wouldve been totally fine ! They couldve attended the meeting remotely ! I planned the meeting as a teams meeting incase somebody wanted to work from home, and had planned a small meeting room for those that didnt.

I didnt shoot myself in the foot, im saying a hybrid workfloor is all about being flexible to anyone’s needs and every situation because nobody is the same and not everyone wants to be at the office 100%.
This is what i also believe. To quote the company’s slogan again : “everyone, everywhere”

SupraMario ,

The issue with this is that most hybrid work plans end up being RTOs. They get used by the C levels to push for getting everyone back into the office. The majority of us work just fine remotely, the rest that can’t seem to get it, sure have an office, but it’ll eventually push to full remote. There’s to many positives for remote work that these companies are seeing now.

DacoTaco ,
@DacoTaco@lemmy.world avatar

I can understand that frustration, and in those cases the c-suite is wrong and shouldnt push hybrid in an attempt to go back on wfh. Hell, those c-suite people should gtfo. I believe hybrid is the way but not for those reasons. I believe that because it benefits everyone and can get the best out of both, not because i want to kill wfh. Wfh is here to stay and should be encouraged if thats the way you work best!

alpacapants ,

We have hybrid and it actually really works. We hire countrywide and if you don’t live near an office you are fully remote. But if you do live near an office you can go in anytime. I don’t like going to the office, but if I need to print or ship, or need to meet a client or coworker it’s nice to have the option. Also anytime I have an issue, I can pop in the office to check out new hardware, or work if my home is unsuitable due to whatever ( power outage, noisy maintenance, over 90 degrees since we don’t have AC, sick kid). However, I think hybrid only works if there is no minimum requirement on time in office. If it is at the teams discretion the home office becomes an amenity. We also downsized from something like 200 cubes to around sixty, so that helps too.

themadcodger ,
@themadcodger@kbin.earth avatar

Yeah, we're the same. It's hybrid in that we're expected to come in when it makes sense to do so, but that's more or less left to us. If your internet isn't working then you're expected to work from the office, that sort of thing.

grrgyle ,

I would call that “remote first” to avoid ambiguity. My current employer is like that too, with offices or co-working spaces in select major cities around the world.

The key differentiating factor is that you can go into the office if you feel like it. It’s only “hybrid” in the sense that you decide, on a purely personal whim, whether you want to or not.

Personally, I live fairly close to a big office, but have only go in for big yearly meetings. And with a remote first culture no one bats an eye at that.

Crackhappy ,
@Crackhappy@lemmy.world avatar

As someone who has WFH for the last 10 years, I do wish I could go into the office occasionally to have face to face meetings for large projects. Those are actually very useful for faster communication and effective for full understanding between groups in a way that video calls just can’t do. We are, after all, social animals and there is something about breathing the same air that can’t be beat.

ampersandrew ,
@ampersandrew@lemmy.world avatar

I’ve worked from home for the past 10 years as well, and the face to face meetings don’t do anything for me, personally. With a job done entirely on a computer, I can’t think of anything that works better in person.

DacoTaco ,
@DacoTaco@lemmy.world avatar

Can i ask what job/position you have? Im trying to learn more about people who dont see the need for in person meetings. Was wondering if it maybe had to do with their job or how they approach a problem

ampersandrew ,
@ampersandrew@lemmy.world avatar

I’m a programmer.

DacoTaco , (edited )
@DacoTaco@lemmy.world avatar

Would you believe me if i said that it makes perfect sense in my head then? I’m a team lead/tech coach and senior dev. Ive seen people develop better at home because otherwise they get distracted by god knows what at the office and for them id tell them to wfh as much as they want, for al long as they need.
Personally, i have too much distractions at home to prevent me from developing and at the office i feel some mental force making me focus at work.
Both are a-ok though!

As for things that work better in person : as a team lead i try to read body and room language during some meetings with my team ( most i dont, just a few ) and that is easier in person for me. But that shouldnt stop anyone unless its like, once in a blue moon. As soon as its not that rare, its hybrid with limitations and people like yourself are no longer as comfortable as they could be!

Semi_Hemi_Demigod ,
@Semi_Hemi_Demigod@lemmy.world avatar

there is something about breathing the same air that can’t be beat.

Mmm halitosis and communicable disease…

GiddyGap ,

I think hybrid only works if there is no minimum requirement on time in office.

Then it’s not really hybrid, it’s actually fully WFH with the option to come in. Hybrid forces you to come in.

iturnedintoanewt ,

You can rent smaller offices with fewer fixed desks and some open ones free for anyone to use for whenever people needs to pop in. Hybrid offers benefits too.

Kecessa ,

Then you run into the issue that you need a reservation model and you end up unable to provide enough desks to guarantee that teams are able to meet at the office when necessary if they don’t make their reservation early enough.

Hell, where I work we have quotas and people can’t meet them because they can’t manage to get a seat at the office they used to work in full time before 2020 and they certainly won’t waste an hour in traffic to go to the next office closest to them.

vin ,

Offices always have had limited meeting rooms and same reservation concept applies. Not a new challenge.

Ookami38 ,

Right. We have an office calendar that books rooms automatically if you post on it. Had that since we’ll before we were wfh.

Kecessa ,

Even without a meeting room, if my team had an emergency and needed everyone to meet at the office sometime in the next week, the only place everyone would be able to have a seat in the same room is in the food court because we’re not the only department that has people needing to RTO.

If you want to have enough space for emergencies is to have enough space for everyone to be 100% in the office.

SonnyVabitch ,

Tangentially, the disaster recovery plan for a company I worked for 20 years ago included provisions of shift work for 9-5 people. If one of the major offices were to become unavailable due to fire or whatever, the other location would accommodate the extra workforce by going 6-2, 2-10, essentially doubling the desk count until a permanent solution was found. Back then, everybody was 100% office based.

iturnedintoanewt ,

Sounds like poor provisioning? In my office we a booking system for the meeting rooms, but we never had an issue with taking hot desks. Maybe a few times your favorite choice might be taken, and that’s all.

EatATaco ,

I know I’m an outlier here, but the evidence is mounting that fully WFH is the least productive, and hybrid seems to be the most productive.

For perspective, I was 100% WFH for about 10 years. A couple of years ago I got a new job (huge compensation boost, and massive perks boost).

Lucky for me, which was one of the reasons I looked into it, my work is a 15 minute bike from where I live, they offer free breakfast and lunch every day, and a gym. So there are plenty of personal incentives for me to go into the office.

But what I find so surprising is that virtually everyone in my office thinks that hybrid is the best for productivity. Literally every person I’ve talked to about this agrees (quietly, of course, they don’t want to lose it) that the spontaneous meetings, the overhearing what other people are talking about (and jumping in with your own knowledge), the ability to quickly turn around and chat with another person, makes collaboration, and by extension productivity, way higher.

My biggest thing is that, as a senior software dev, the junior devs come to me for help quite frequently. When we’re in the office, I would say the average is about 3 times a day. When one or both of us is WFH, it probably doesn’t even average to one. There is something about sending a message or an email or requesting a zoom meeting that seems to be enough of a hurdle to ask what is a simple question. So they end up spinning their wheels a lot longer.

Now, don’t get me wrong, I get that WFH is a huge benefit to the employee. Which is why I did it for so long, with two young kids it was a god send to be home all the time if they needed to come because they were sick or if I needed to run out to the doctors with them. And, of course, commuting just absolutely blows (I think that’s the biggest drawback of any non-FWFH schedule). So I do support it.

However, I think we need to be realistic about its benefits. Companies want people back in the office because, generally speaking, people are more productive.

masterspace , (edited )

You realize that you’re experiencing massive selection bias right?

A) it’s not very socially acceptable to talk about how much you’d rather be at home with your cat than here talking with this colleague.

B) everyone you work with chose a hybrid job.

i.e. “People who choose to work a hybrid job think hybrid is better”

Or in your case, “people who get to go into a big tech office with free meals and gyms and laundry think it’s better to go into the office”.

Try working a hybrid job where you commute 45min each way, and still have to cook yourself three meals a day and then come back and tell us whether you think hybrid is really more productive. I spent a year at a MAANG firm as a contractor and got to go to their head campus near SF and thought ‘damn, if this was what working was like, I could more easily see myself going into the office’, then I returned to my home city and went to their office their and saw the stale muffins that were breakfast and remembered the whole rest of my career and what companies are like and returned to the real world.

Yes, I understand the hurdle in asking people questions, but quite frankly that is addressable through numerous ways from zoom office hours, to better team rituals and culture, to slack bots, occasional meetups, or just plain old fashioned pair programming… all methods that cost far less and cause far less disruption to people’s lives then forcing in them into an office 3 days a week.

And you know what else is more productive for a company? Having everyone working 60 hour weeks in the office all the time. Who. the. fuck. cares. We live in a world with literal billionaires. Working more doesn’t make the world a better place it enriches assholes who never learned how to share or be happy with what they have.

EatATaco ,

it’s not very socially acceptable to talk about how much you’d rather be at home with your cat than here talking with this colleague.

Make no mistake about it, most have said they would rather be WFH. It’s just that most of them also accept that office work is more productive.

everyone you work with chose a hybrid job.

Or, more accurately, didn’t leave a FWFH job when it went back hybrid. But, sure, this definitely biases the sample. Which is why I provided a link that studied this, and just gave my personal experience that seemingly further confirms the studied.

But also, keep in mind that while this sample is far from perfect, it’s many times better than people posting on lemmy claiming that they work better from home.

Try working a hybrid job where you commute 45min each way, and still have to cook yourself three meals a day and then come back and tell us whether you think hybrid is really more productive.

You’re missing my point. I get that it’s better for the individual to be full WFH. I don’t deny this. But we’re talking about productivity here in the office.

Yes, I understand the hurdle in asking people questions, but quite frankly that is addressable through numerous ways from zoom office hours, to better team rituals and culture, to slack bots, occasional meetups, or just plain old fashioned pair programming

Can you point me to some study that confirms that this would replace it? If so, I would happily change my tune. But I think most people work kind of asynchronously, and this is forcing them to sync these moments (when, IME, they happen kind of spontaneously, and I don’t see how it would replace the times when I’m talking to one person, a third overhears it and says “I have something useful to add.”), which isn’t natural.

Who. the. fuck. cares.

Again, I support FWFH because I think the flexibility is important for the individual. That doesn’t require me to be under the delusion that it’s equally productive. It’s not, and I think going forward that’s going to be more and more obvious.

masterspace , (edited )

But also, keep in mind that while this sample is far from perfect, it’s many times better than people posting on lemmy claiming that they work better from home.

No, it’s literally just as biased, but in the other direction.

You’re missing my point. I get that it’s better for the individual to be full WFH. I don’t deny this. But we’re talking about productivity here in the office.

But here’s the thing, it’s not more productive to go to the office.

Have you read the actual “studies” being cited in that Forbes article?

In the first, they randomly assign employees to work from home scenarios, meaning that random employees here and there are working remotely while everyone else is in office. This is not a study of whether a company can work effectively remotely it’s a study of what happens when you take an in-office company and tell someone to work at home at random once in a while.

In the second working paper from Stanford, if you actually dig into how they’re measuring productivity, every single study they bring up is one that measures the effects when a fully in-office company, like an Indian call-center, suddenly shift to remote work because of a global pandemic, not one studying how fully remote companies or teams compare to their in office or hybrid counterparts.

Can you point me to some study that confirms that this would replace it?

No, but I can point you to many high functioning fully remote teams and companies… As mentioned above there’s not a lot of actual good research on this.

But I think most people work kind of asynchronously, and this is forcing them to sync these moments (when, IME, they happen kind of spontaneously, and I don’t see how it would replace the times when I’m talking to one person, a third overhears it and says “I have something useful to add.”), which isn’t natural.

Regular rituals like stand-ups, retros, demos etc give people some opportunities to ask questions like this, and like I mentioned, pair programming gives constant opportunity for this. When I was at a MAANG company our team also had “in-office zoom hours” where we’d all get on a zoom call for 2 hours, 3 times a week, and it was an opportunity for people to openly discuss things and ask questions as if we were all sitting at desks in the office. One team I was on used gather.town to replicate an office experience for this.

Remote work doesn’t just magically happen, you do need some culture and rituals and effort, and companies that aren’t setup for that aren’t going to thrive like that, but that doesn’t mean they can’t.

In the past year I spent half my time with a team that was entirely in-office with just us contractors being remote, and it was awful. Documentation was terrible, they constantly did conference room zoom meetings where you couldn’t tell who was talking, and critical information was communicated by tapping people on the shoulder. Did it work for them? Sure. But it was a nightmare to try and take their system and suddenly do it remote.

I then spent the second half of the year with a completely remote team, and it was amazing. Even for those of us coming in as relatively green backend devs, we excelled. We were talking with the team on slack and zoom constantly, and pair programming with multiple people on a daily basis and we learned a ton and got a ton done.

High functioning teams get stuff done, if you can put together a high functioning team just using the people who happen to live within biking distance of your office that’s great, but in the long run I have no doubt that company’s that can accept talent from anywhere will come out ahead.

EatATaco ,

Honestly, that was a lot of words to say you don’t really have anything but personal experience. No offense to you, but your claims and opinions don’t hold any water for me because I don’t know you.

As I said, if you actually have anything that can demonstrate that it’s better, or even equivalent, I would love to see it and would absolutely reconsider my position. But “everyone’s just doing it wrong” rings hollow to me because I just don’t see how it can actually replace what I see happen when everyone is together. Especially if we consider the context where people are saying hybrid is the worst, when evidence seems to be that hybrid hits the sweet spot.

masterspace ,

Honestly, that was a lot of words to say you don’t really have anything but personal experience

That was a lot of words to give you examples of practices that make remote work productive.

And it was in response to you typing a lot of words to say absolute jack shit but bring up a Forbes article that found that when companies that weren’t ready for it suddenly shifted to remote work because of COVID, productivity dropped a little. Congratulations genius, that doesnt show that hybrid work is more productive, it shows that you don’t know how to read studies but will take a pro business rags’ trash at face value. No offense but show me a study that shows that hybrid or in-office work is more productive than remote, because you have yet to do that.

EatATaco ,

The reason you feel the need to attack me is probably because, on some level, you realize I have the stronger position as mine is actually based on the evidence. You want to believe yourself objective and evidence based, but at the same time you really want WFH to be equivalent of even better. So instead of actually being objective and evidence based, and simply accepting the reality of the situation - your position is based on nothing more than gut feeling - it’s best to try and make me not intelligent so you can disregard my position.

masterspace ,

The reason you feel the need to attack me is probably because, on some level, you realize I have the stronger position as mine is actually based on the evidence.

What evidence? As I pointed out, the Forbes article linked above does not say that hybrid work is more productive, it says that when in-office companies who aren’t prepared for remote work suddenly have to switch, they do better with hybrid than fully remote.

You want to believe yourself objective and evidence based,

No, that would be you. I don’t think there is good evidence one way or another because it’s a) a brand new en masse practice that’s still evolving, b) people don’t tend to study those things in huge detail because companies aren’t huge fans of their workers being researched rather than working, and c) at it’s best “productivity” is a nebulous concept that is extremely difficult to measure objectively for most jobs that actually matter.

Again, I’ve already pointed out that the previous evidence you presented does not say that hybrid work is more productive, it merely examines the impact of the pandemic on companies.

So do you have any other studies to cite, or are you willing to accept that there isn’t good evidence one way or another and your anecdotal opinions from colleagues who chose to be in office are just as valid as my anecdotal opinions from colleagues who chose to work remotely?

EatATaco , (edited )

Literally posted an article of a bunch of experts pointing to and discussing the evidence that hybrid works seems to hit the sweet spot. And you’re claiming I’ve provided nothing. The article even notes that Zoom is bringing people back to the office. And you’re suggestion is that Zoom is part of the answer. I’m cracking up over here.

So do you have any other studies to cite, or are you willing to accept that there isn’t good evidence one way or another and your anecdotal opinions from colleagues who chose to be in office are just as valid as my anecdotal opinions from colleagues who chose to work remotely?

False dichotomy. You’ve already proven that you’ll just reject evidence and the opinion of experts when you don’t like it. But I will agree that my anecdotal experience is equivalent to yours. The difference I see is that my anecdotal experience seems to line up with the evidence, yours just lines up with what you want to be true.

masterspace , (edited )

Literally posted an article of a bunch of experts pointing to and discussing the evidence that hybrid works seems to hit the sweet spot. And you’re claiming I’ve provided nothing. The article even notes that Zoom is bringing people back to the office. And you’re suggestion is that Zoom is part of the answer. I’m cracking up over here.

Bud, go read the above comments again. I read the studies that the Forbes article links to as its sources and tore them apart and pointed out that they do not even say what the Forbes article says they do.

Measuring a drop in the productivity of Indian call centers when they’re forced remote / hybrid because of a pandemic does not say that hybrid work is more productive, even if a pro business trash mag like Forbes somehow thinks it does.

You’ve already proven that you’ll just reject evidence and the opinion of experts when you don’t like it.

No, I’ve proven that Forbes is a trash magazine that doesn’t accurately report or draw conclusions from the studies it cites, and it just so happens that those conclusions line up with the opinions of management.

EatATaco ,

I did read your comments. It’s just pooh-poohing the evidence away. Anyone can do that. And people do it all the time when they don’t like what the evidence tells them.

I’m cracking up that you think a Forbes “journalist”, counts as an expert.

Maybe you should try reading the article with an open mind rather than manufacturing reasons to ignore it.

masterspace , (edited )

Maybe you should try reading the article with an open mind rather than manufacturing reasons to ignore it.

I had an open mind, but critical thinking occasionally requires criticism. Maybe you should read an article’s sources rather than accept claims from a business mag at face value.

But if you want to stop squabbling and talk evidence, let’s examine each specific claim on the basis of the evidence supporting it.

The Forbes article makes several specific claims and references:

  1. A recent study from the National Bureau of Economic Research (NBER) found that remote working might not be as productive as once thought. Workers who were randomly assigned to work from home full time were 18% less productive than in-office employees, either taking longer to complete tasks or getting less done.

    • Now does a study that takes a fully in office company, and randomly assigns some employees to work from home, say that a fully remote company is less productive than a in-office company? No. It says that when you have random employees work from home in an environment not suited for it it doesn’t go well.

  2. In another study, Stanford scientists at the Institute for Economic Policy Research found that remote work productivity depends on the mode of remote work. Fully remote work is associated with about 10% lower productivity than fully in-person work.

  • Now let’s look at how the Stanford scientists arrived at that. From page 18 of the linked working paper:

Fully Remote Work. Several studies find that fully remote work yields lower productivity than on-site work. Emanuel and Harrington (2023) analyze data from a Fortune 500 firm that, before the pandemic, operated call centers with both remote and on-site employees in the same jobs. In response to the pandemic, the firm shifted all employees in these jobs to fully remote work. Productivity among formerly onsite employees fell 4 percent relative to that of already-remote employees. Emanuel and Harrington also find evidence that the closure of phys-ical call centers reduced call quality, especially among less experienced employees. These findings are noteworthy, in part, because they involve a firm with prior experience in managing fully remote call-center workers. Presumably then, the firm had already adapted its systems and practices to manage fully remote workers.

Gibbs, Mengel, and Siemroth (2023) study productivity outcomes for skilled professionals at a large Indian technology services company. In March 2020, the company abruptly shifted all employees to fully remote work in response to the pandemic. Immediately after the shift, average worktime rose by 1.5 hours per day and output fell slightly according to their primary performance measure. They esti-mate that the shift to remote work lowered average labor productivity (output per hour worked) by 8 to 19 percent. They also provide evidence that greater communication and coordination costs drove much of the measured productivity drop. In particular, time spent on meetings and coordination activities rose, crowding out time devoted to a concentrated focus on work tasks.

  • Do you think the experience of an Indian Call Center suddenly going remote because of the pandemic, and an Indian IT company suddenly going remote because of the pandemic is somehow indicative and generalizable to every company operating in normal times?
  • Now go and read trough the section on hybrid work and note that it says upfront that studies have found an increase in productivity or no gains in productivity. Then read through and notice how not a single study compares hybrid or in office companies to fully remote companies. All of them deal with studying the jarring transition of an in office company transitioning to partially remote, and none of the studies anywhere listed come close to broad economy wide or even market wide analyses of real world productivity in the long run.

So you want to talk evidence, that is the entirety of the evidence behind your claims that hybrid work is on a broad basis more productive, and it’s basically a bunch of pandemic studies on Indian and Bangladeshi call centers. It certainly does not support the Forbes articles’ general claim that Fully remote work is associated with about 10% lower productivity than fully in-person work., that is a gross mischaracterization at best, if not an outright lie, and shows you the journalistic standards of somewhere like Forbes.

EatATaco ,

I get it, you have some criticisms of the studies and they are imperfect. What you’ve offered up is precisely zero. Even even they have very glaring imperfections, they are still infinitely more useful than absolutely nothing.

I had an open mind

No you didn’t, because if you had you would realize that they were quoting experts and scientists throughout the article and wouldn’t have accused me of just believing what some journalist said. It’s not like this was some sneaky part of the piece, it was front and center throughout it.

masterspace ,

Even even they have very glaring imperfections, they are still infinitely more useful than absolutely nothing.

No, they’re not, they are literally nothing because they do not say anything about remote work being less productive or hybrid work being more productive.

I can present you a study on the population levels of minks in North America but that doesn’t make it better than nothing because it says nothing about the current topic we’re discussing. The studies at the core of their arguments are not even trying to compare hybrid companies to remote ones or in-office ones, they’re measuring what happens when you disrupt established patterns.

No you didn’t, because if you had you would realize that they were quoting experts and scientists throughout the article and wouldn’t have accused me of just believing what some journalist said. It’s not like this was some sneaky part of the piece, it was front and center throughout it.

I accused you of just blindly accepting what an article said at face value like that’s abnormal because I was annoyed and being unfair, no one is reading through the sources of every article they read, but that doesn’t change the fact that in this case if you look at the evidence the article is based on, it’s flimsy, niche, and not actually saying what the article author is saying (I would argue that even the abstract from the Stanford paper is grossly misleading).

BallsandBayonets ,

The last paragraph is the most important, imo. When I last worked an office job, in the before (Covid) times, the rare occasions when I would work from home due to being sick were my least productive days from the company’s perspective. But they were essential for me to mentally recharge or recover from illness (in a civilized society of course we’d have free healthcare and unlimited zero-work sick days).

If I had a similar job with WFH days I would almost certainly be less productive than I would be if I was 100% in the office, but I’d also be less stressed, happier, and healthier. Less likely to need full sick days. Less likely to job hop after a year. Less likely to sneak alcohol in my coffee mug to deal with coworkers and clients. And the world would keep on spinning, no one would die, there would be no measurable impact on the world other than the stock price/CEOs bonus maybe being down a few cents.

I get that being more productive is how we can sell healthier work habits to the capitalists, but let’s not drink the koolade. There’s an immeasurable number of things more important in life than one’s productivity at work.

bitwolf ,

Honestly the productivity argument isn’t hitting and probably never will. It’s just not easy to measure, especially in software where it makes sense to be remote in most cases.

Rather pro-wfh should argue about employee well being. Its horrible PR to go against employee well-being.

Semi_Hemi_Demigod ,
@Semi_Hemi_Demigod@lemmy.world avatar

Hybrid is always worse than either fully remote or fully in office. You end up with people coming into the office and sitting on Zoom or posting on Slack, and people at home missing out on conversations that don’t happen there. So you have to do twice as much work to keep everybody on the same page.

  • All
  • Subscribed
  • Moderated
  • Favorites
  • •
  • [email protected]
  • random
  • lifeLocal
  • goranko
  • All magazines
    •