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queermunist ,
@queermunist@lemmy.ml avatar

I will vote for Biden if he ends his support for genocide. That’s it. That’s all I need to vote for him. I just want that one thing, even after he let me down by breaking the rail strike and continuing brutal anti-immigration and doing nothing abiut over policing and expanding American oil and stopping peace negotiations in Ukraine.

Just this one thing.

If that’s too much to ask, he won’t get my vote.

kent_eh ,

You think Trump will “end the genocide”?

He will go even harder on “USA needs to support Israel defending God’s promised land”.

Remember he is the one who moved the US embassy to support Netanyahu’s agenda.

queermunist ,
@queermunist@lemmy.ml avatar

With Biden, Democrats are mostly falling in line behind the genocide. It’s a bipartisan genocide, with even Bernie being unwilling to support a ceasefire. With Trump, on the other hand, Democrats would reverse course and actually support a ceasefire to obstruct Trump.

-but that’s all speculation. I don’t know, for sure, that it would happen that way. What I do know is I won’t vote for genocide, and I will withhold my vote unless Biden changes his policy on Israel. I won’t vote for Trump, I’ll even vote Dem down ticket, but I won’t vote for genocide.

You, on the other hand, are literally voting for genocide if you support Biden. You just want to absolve yourself of that moral responsibility.

UnrepententProcrastinator ,

Good job playing into the hands of the conservatives. If they can’t get your vote they’ll push arguments like yours in order to win.

queermunist ,
@queermunist@lemmy.ml avatar

Good job playing into the hands of Zionists, they need you in order to continue the genocide.

carnimoss ,
@carnimoss@lemmings.world avatar

This is dumb and self-righteous. It’ll be 100 times worse with Trump and we all know this.

queermunist ,
@queermunist@lemmy.ml avatar

It’ll be 100 times worse with Trump and we all know this.

Really? Why not a million times? A billion!

🤡

carnimoss ,
@carnimoss@lemmings.world avatar

I thank god I’m not this illiterate. What do you think Trump’s policy is gonna be? He caters to Republicans who WANT funding to Israel. He pushed the Overton window. What do you think he’s gonna do? Is he gonna weave them baskets and pick them flowers? 🤔

queermunist ,
@queermunist@lemmy.ml avatar

I think he’s going to be obstructed by Democrats, who I am voting for down ticket. I think he’s going to ruin Israel’s relations with the rest of the world and turn it into a pariah state. I think he’s going to overextend himself and fail. I think he’s a fat old man and might just die lol

JustZ ,

Because the population in Iran is roughly 100 times the population in Palestine.

queermunist ,
@queermunist@lemmy.ml avatar

I don’t think we’ll have to wait for Trump to see war with Iran.

I guess we’ll see what the next 9 months brings.

Drusas ,

I'm pretty sure Iran is actively and deliberately pressing the US and its allies to engage in a more widespread war by encouraging and provisioning the Houthis in their current terrorism against unaligned trade ships in the Red Sea.

Kind of like how the US is providing unneeded military aid to Israel. Encourages Israel to "go for it" against their enemies. Two sides of a coin, but with Iran being more deliberate in wanting war because Israel is vastly outnumbered by its neighbors and they think they can eradicate it.

The US doesn't want to eradicate the Palestinians; they just don't care enough about the people stop it. The Iranians want to eradicate the Israelis.

Drusas ,

Posting clown emojis just makes you look like a clown. Use your words.

go_go_gadget ,

We slide farther to the right with each passing year regardless of which party wins. You all seem fine with the direction so we’re just upping the timeline. If you want to go in a different direction tell Joe Biden to stop fucking over voters he’s depending on. And tell anyone who voted for Biden in the 2020 primaries they’re a fucking asshole.

Pratai ,

Trump thanks you for your support.

go_go_gadget ,

Good job playing into the hands of the conservatives.

Tell Joe Biden to stop fucking over voters he’s depending on.

Pratai ,

Trump thanks you for your support.

rbhfd ,

You just want to absolve yourself of that moral responsibility.

That’s exactly what you are doing. You’re focusing on this one issue, retreating yourself from the binary decision because neither options stands for what you (or I, or morality) would prefer. Completely ignoring that withdrawing from the choice plays into the hand of the infinitely worse candidate. So by not choosing, you do nothing to stop the situation in Gaza, but might actually make things a lot worse for people all over.

You can virtue signal that you did not compromise on your believes, while actually helping your country make a worse place.

queermunist , (edited )
@queermunist@lemmy.ml avatar

Like I said, there are so many other issues that Biden has betrayed me on. This is just the red line. Here and no further.

You will let Biden do anything he wants to you and beg for more, just to stop Trump. It’s revolting.

If enough Democrats pressured Biden to endorse a ceasefire by withholding their votes, he would! He’s a politician. That’s what politicians do. This is our only leverage! This is all we can do to stop the genocide, and I really think Biden would reconsider if it looked bad enough.

JustZ ,

Why would anyone endorse a ceasefire? Hamas is firing more rockets at Israel just today.

queermunist ,
@queermunist@lemmy.ml avatar

A ceasefire means both sides stop. If you want Hamas to stop firing rockets, you want a ceasefire.

JustZ ,

Hamas isn’t going to stop.

Pratai ,

Trump thanks you for your support.

go_go_gadget ,

You’re focusing on this one issue

We’ve raised lots of issues. The amounts of the stimulus checks, the way he fucked us over with the BBB, the way he negotiated down for student loan forgiveness, for fucking over the rail workers. The list goes on. Every time we mention something we get shut down. For someone who wants our votes so badly you have a really odd way of showing it.

Pratai ,

Now imagine all of that, with a splash of military enforced laws, harder anti-LGBTQ+ laws, defunding the EPA, pulling out of many international agreements, abortion in ANY circumstance being a criminal act….

Read up on his plans before you do a thing stupid like… NOT voting.

go_go_gadget ,

The stupid thing was to vote for Joe Biden in the 2020 primaries. Those people can go fuck themselves.

Rhoeri ,
@Rhoeri@lemmy.world avatar

Ahhh… so you’re a trumper.

go_go_gadget ,

I voted for Obama twice and Biden once. Call me whatever you want. At the end of the day, do you need my vote or not? If you want it I’ve given you the terms: don’t elect procorporate trash in the primaries.

Rhoeri ,
@Rhoeri@lemmy.world avatar

So…. You’re fine with Trump then? Thats what you’re saying.

go_go_gadget ,

I’m fine with the people who voted for Biden in the 2020 primaries electing him all by themselves in 2024. They fucked over my interests in the primaries so they can go fuck themselves in the general.

Pratai , (edited )

You’re not only supporting the same genocide with a vote for Trump, you’re also supporting all the bigotry, oppression, misogyny, racism, and cowardice that goes along with it.

And make no mistake- your stubborn refusal to vote against a tyrant over a single issue is what allows said tyrant to rule America.

We WILL blame you if Trump wins.

nonailsleft ,

But why did this particular flare up in the Palestine-Israel conflict be the hill you’ll die on? Why, for example, didn’t Bidens support for the Saudis against the Houthis, which is much worse by most standards, put you off?

Secondly: how do you think you’re helping the Palestinians by helping to replace Biden with Trump?

queermunist ,
@queermunist@lemmy.ml avatar

It was Biden going around Congress to give Israel more bombs blow up civilians that really set me off. He didn’t do that for Saudi, he didn’t do it for Ukraine, and he certainly doesn’t do shit like that for Americans who need him to bypass Congress.

Second, I don’t think Trump will be any better or worse than Biden on Palestine. That’s why I’m not voting for him.

But I will not vote for genocide. I’d rather die.

(and I might, since I’m a trans communist in a red state)

nonailsleft ,

Are you sure Trump won’t be worse on Palestine? He was doing their diplomatic legwork all through his term. Moved the embassy to cement Israel’s claim over Jerusalem.

Biden went around congress and stopped weapon sales to Saudi Arabia thus stopping their genocide in Yemen.

Trump actually vetoed congress on the same issue so the genocide could continue.

Effectively, by refusing to stop Trump to spite Biden, you are choosing for two genocides instead of one. On top of all the other things.

trdebunked ,
@trdebunked@mastodon.social avatar

@nonailsleft @queermunist gosh, the trolley problem isnt contrived at all, its actually about fucking genocide and the 2-party system.

queermunist ,
@queermunist@lemmy.ml avatar

Derail the trolley dawg.

nonailsleft ,

Well in the real worreldd, US voters are too weak to fix a broken democratic system. This should be addressed by, best chance, taking over the dnc from within and moving towards a supermajority that supports a better system.

But today, tomorrow,… Untill that is fixed: the trolley problem is real. To give someone else control of the trolley does nothing to fix the systemic problem. You might think so. Your gut tells you letting things explode might wake up enough people to start a revolution. But history shows it doesn’t.

You can vote to limit genocide and work towards fixing the system, without compromising the other

queermunist ,
@queermunist@lemmy.ml avatar

Your vote lends credibility and mandate to the regime. Your vote says “yes please, I want more of this”. They don’t care that you are actually voting to minimize the damage, they only care that they can do anything they want to you and you’ll beg for more just to stop Trump.

Like I said, if this is a trolley problem then we have to derail the trolley.

Coasting0942 ,

Trump did say what he would have done, but given it’s Trump he’d probably not do what he said:

Trump criticized Israeli Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu, lauded Hezbollah militants as “very smart” and sought political gain from the attacks that killed 1,200 people by claiming that if the last election was not “rigged,” he’d be the American president and they’d never have happened.

Pratai ,

THIS!!! Omg this! I wish I could agree more!

I am astounded by how polarized the younger generation is. It’s all, or nothing with them and they can’t see how badly that is going to fuck us up.

Hey kids….

LIFE EXISTS WITHIN THE GREY AREA. There’s a thing called NUANCE.

Deciding to not vote for THE ONE PERION CAPABLE OF KEEPING AMERICA FROM BEING A DICTATORSHIP because of a single issue… is flat-out FUCKING STUPID.

Get your heads out of your ass!

go_go_gadget ,

It’s not one issue buddy. We’ve had lots of issues with Biden. You’re just so far into denial you’re not hearing us.

Soulg ,

Yeah, every president has a lot of issues. You’re just demonstrating that you don’t care about electing a dictator.

go_go_gadget ,

So you admit what you just said is a lie? You knew all along we didn’t have just one issue with Biden but you’re out here saying it because you’re a liar? Great. Glad we cleared that up.

Rhoeri ,
@Rhoeri@lemmy.world avatar

Go ahead and list the issues you think would be worse than what Trump has done, and promises yet to do.

We’ll all wait here.

go_go_gadget ,

Of course Biden wouldn’t be worse than Trump. I don’t care? You’ll have to do better than that if you want my vote. Millions of people had that opportunity in the 2020 primaries and they chose to vote for a procorporate piece of trash. Fuck those people. If they think they can ignore us in the primaries then we’ll ignore their shit candidate in the general. Don’t like it? That’s how democracy works.

Rhoeri ,
@Rhoeri@lemmy.world avatar

You’re not getting how this works.

You’re not voting for Biden? YOU’RE GETTING TRUMP.

You don’t get to pretend that not voting means you nothing will happen. Right now- you either drink the piss, or you eat the shit. You don’t get to chose neither.

So either move to another country, or pick one.

go_go_gadget ,

You don’t get to chose neither.

Right, my choice was made for me by selfish pieces of shit in the 2020 primaries who chose a procorporate trash candidate. They can go fuck themselves.

FlaminGoku ,

Look at this closely people.This is the misinformation campaign for the election.

Both sides support this war, this stance that a republican would do anything different is laughable.

This is the rhetoric that will be blasted all around social media creating a bullshit narrative of a rational liberal “taking the high ground” and encouraging others to follow by voting blue for everyone but Joe Biden.

queermunist ,
@queermunist@lemmy.ml avatar

Okay, then by that logic, why is Biden helping Trump get elected by playing into this strategy?

Like I said, Biden has betrayed me over and over, but like a beaten dog I will crawl back to him if he just does this one thing. That’s all I’m asking for. It would be so easy for Biden to get my vote. It’s entirely in his hands. Yet he won’t do it. Why? Why is he determined to help Trump win?

FlaminGoku ,

The outcome will not change regardless of who is President because Congress is beholden to the defense industry and will always support selling weapons.

So no one is helping anyone win because the outcome is the same. If this is your true opinion, get your head out of your ass and see the big picture. Otherwise, fuck you for trying to spread facism.

queermunist ,
@queermunist@lemmy.ml avatar

… if that’s true, then elections don’t matter in the first place! What the fuck?

If the outcome will not change regardless of who is President, why are you crawling up my dick about refusing to vote for Biden?

FlaminGoku ,

Your single issue outcome is the same, not every outcome.

queermunist ,
@queermunist@lemmy.ml avatar

That’s more reasonable.

I still think you’re wrong, I think Biden can be forced to endorse a ceasefire because politicians actually do care about elections. Right now the Biden team believes that Democrats are loyal to the core and can be counted to vote blue no matter who, there’s zero incentive to endorse a ceasefire. Why bother? He can do anything he wants to you and you’ll still vote for him. They’ve basically said as much.

And do you realize what that does? That’s not a “single issue”. Biden broke the railroad strike. Biden approved the Willow oil and gas pipeline project. Biden has fought to keep Trump’s COVID border policies, despite basically giving up entirely on controlling the spread of the virus otherwise. Biden allowed Manchin to stonewall almost everything when there was a huge Democratic majority.

By voting blue no matter who, you have enabled Biden to completely ignore the demands of his own base. You’re enabling genocide.

JustZ ,

The outcome will change. Trump wants hot war with Iran. He is supported and surrounds himself by actual Zionists.

queermunist ,
@queermunist@lemmy.ml avatar

Biden is an actual Zionist!

I guess we’ll see if we have a war with Iran by November or not. It doesn’t look good!

go_go_gadget ,

The outcome will not change regardless of who is President because Congress is beholden to the defense industry and will always support selling weapons.

Sounds like Democracy is already broken then. Remind me what I’m supposed to be defending here?

Drusas ,

A broken democracy is better than a fascist regime.

go_go_gadget ,

A fascist regime today is better than one tomorrow. You people have no idea how to change trajectory here you just tell us to keep kicking the can as the country slides to the right. It’s pathetic.

Pratai ,

Trump thanks you for your support.

TwentySeven ,

I’ve been seeing a lot of this lately and I agree, it definitely feels like an astroturf campaign.

Most single issue voters are focused on domestic issues such as abortion or the economy. And you would think that someone who cares so much about Israel would also be worried about other aspects of foreign policy such as Ukraine.

The premise is so dumb that it’s laughable. And I think it speaks to Biden’s success as a president that this is the best campaign they can come up with.

the_post_of_tom_joad ,

Look at this closely people.This is the misinformation campaign for the election.

I dunno, is it that crazy to think the venn diagram of liberal voters and people that hate genocide are a near-perfect circle?

Biden doing an end-around Congress to send more weapons, while we can all see how they are being used seems like a misinformation campaign?

Frankly, why would voicing distaste for Biden or ones intention not to vote for him cause people to do the same??

Like are you changing your mind right now? Of course not. A passionate person such as yourself should be even more determined to vote for Biden knowing i will not.

I hate the bullshit shutdown tactic of calling an opinion an astroturf campaign.

FlaminGoku ,

It’s meant to keep voting democrats that are on the fence at home.

It’s not just voicing distaste, it’s providing a rational justification to this voter pool which appeals to a “morality of the left” mindset of not voting for a candidate because of singular issues even though the totality of the candidate is much better than the alternative.

It’s also providing a bad-faith argument. Another Trump presidency would completely back this and potentially fuel an internal racial cleansing once the cult gets new talking points on who the bad people are.

the_post_of_tom_joad , (edited )

It’s meant to keep voting democrats that are on the fence at home.

Meant? My comments are 'meant to do something? This just sounds goofy. Who actually thinks this way except pollsters and astroturfers? I have opinions, wrong and right, i share all of them on the Internet.

it’s providing a rational justification to this voter pool which appeals to a “morality of the left” mindset

I want to talk to you more deeply about this. Do you believe other people on lemmy are so credulous and yet so uninformed, so lacking in morality that reading about my opinion on it will sway them? These people are also voters that definitely vote normally, but are also so easy to manipulate that my words make them stop?

It’s also providing a bad-faith argument. Another Trump presidency would completely…

Stop.

A bad faith argument would be to say that there are only 2 choices, but that really there is only one choice.

That any argument against your belief is astroturf or a lie to help the opposition.

That states a guess of what the other candidate would have done as fact.

Who out of the two of us has done these things?

Vote Biden! Vote hard, cuz i won’t. You, in the meantime need to stop talking, you do more harm than good to your cause.

FlaminGoku ,

Meant to do something?

Not your comments, the other’s comments.

Do you believe other people reading about my opinion will sway them

Yes I believe that there are people who will make decision opinion based on the social media discourse they read in the coming months. I would estimate its 15% of the voting population.

A bad faith argument would be to say that there are only 2 choices, but that really there is only one choice.

It is a bad faith argument because regardless of who is president, American Congressional support for Israel will continue. The original poster implied that by not voting, genocide would be avoided.

Vote hard cuz I won’t

Cool, if you’re not voting your opinion doesn’t matter.

the_post_of_tom_joad , (edited )

It matters enough for you to write a point-for-pointer debunking it, tho. I wonder why

Your thoughtless disrespect, misrepresenting of op’s position, and besmirching the intelligence of your fellow voters notwithstanding, the time you spent on your opus makes me happy, believe it or not.

I hope you have a nice night :D

queermunist ,
@queermunist@lemmy.ml avatar

Not your comments, the other’s comments.

So, my comments? Fuck off, I’m also just expressing my political positions!

PRUSSIA_x86 ,

Your political positions are inane and childish, please keep them in your head until you graduate high school.

ultranaut ,

Ending genocide isn’t on the ballot this year, Trump is. Your choices are between probably more genocide if you don’t vote for Biden and possibly less genocide if you do vote for Biden. It’s really that simple.

the_post_of_tom_joad ,

Ending genocide isn’t on the ballot this year

Look at that comment. Really, really, look at it.

ultranaut ,

Yes, we live in America and don’t get to vote on those sorts of things generally. The choices available are shitty and limited, if you haven’t figured that out yet I’ve got some terrible news because that’s how it works here. You can vote for the lesser evil and hope to move things in a better direction, or you can empower Trump and pretty much guarantee the horrorshow will be intensified.

the_post_of_tom_joad ,

I won’t vote for evil at all. Not if it means this. I’ve voted that way, (lesser evil) in hopes that i could do like you said, but it didn’t pan out that way in the 25 voting years I’ve experienced. The (quite likely) fact you have closer to that many total years as i have voting years, and that I’ve been a political hobbyist for most of those means your attempt at dismissal is a sloppy one.

ultranaut ,

Your judgment is not good then, I’ve been a voter for a bit longer than you. I don’t think you really have a choice in “voting for evil”, not voting or throwing your vote away on a third party is just as much a vote for evil as directly voting for Trump because it still serves to empower Trump and the GOP.

the_post_of_tom_joad ,

Your judgment is not good then

I dunno, i am ending this farce :D

MonkRome ,

You’re basically saying you’re “moral purity” is more important than the people who will be directly impacted by a trump presidency. When trump decides to, or more accurately motivate others to, “purify” this country of it’s queers, Jews, and brown people my wife and I will have people like you to thank, who’s moral purity was somehow more important than my life. Your decision isn’t moral, it’s evil.

the_post_of_tom_joad ,

You’re basically saying

Would you like to discuss why what your said is not a strawman?

i imagine you understand what one is. You ostensibly have fingers, so you can Google it, and i imagine also that you have eyes, and therefore some understanding that what you have said has already been said, and said better, then you, just now.

Still here? Considering both of these points (and the implicit understanding between us that you also have a brain), what on gods green earth did you smoke that made you think this opinion was worth sharing with me?

Because you can’t possibly think you’d convince me with your ignorant, late, copy-cat finger-wagging.

Gosh. Letting out my frustration on you felt good. That probably wasn’t your intent though. What on earth were you attenpting to do?

MonkRome ,

No one replies to your moronic comments hoping to change your mind, it’s for anyone else who is impressionable that might find some twisted logic in your confused hogwash.

the_post_of_tom_joad , (edited )

Ah! So it was for the peanut gallery. I hope you don’t take as much damage next time you take a bullet for the poor impressionable lurkers in future threads. I wonder if they will also witness your winning an argument you made up?

Are you the type who needs the last word? Please be my guest, hero.

queermunist ,
@queermunist@lemmy.ml avatar

Ending genocide isn’t on the ballot this year,

It would be if you cowards had the guts to tell Biden that he will lose if he continues to support genocide.

ultranaut ,

Sorry but that’s not how it works and insulting me won’t change anything.

queermunist ,
@queermunist@lemmy.ml avatar

That is how it works! Politicians change their policies based on what their supporters demand of them.

What do you think politics is? Do you think we’re helpless to the whims of politicians between election cycles?

You just want to absolve yourself of guilt for actively supporting genocide.

ultranaut ,

Again, insulting me won’t change anything. I obviously don’t support genocide. I’m done with whatever you’re doing.

queermunist ,
@queermunist@lemmy.ml avatar

You are voting for genocide. You can’t escape it.

Drusas ,

By voting against Biden, including not voting, you are voting for genocide as well. But equally importantly, also voting for fascism.

go_go_gadget ,

Well, we made it pretty clear we were fed up with procorporate trash candidates in 2016. But then a bunch of pieces of shit decided they were voting for Biden in the 2020 primaries. We gave him a chance and he fucking blew it. Fuck Joe Biden and fuck everyone who voted for him in the primaries.

blazeknave ,

The few people on the Internet that read this or feel like you. Grow up. You’re not changing anything. You’re electing Trump. I’ve heard this bullshit for over 20 years and it’s been a slippery fucking slope.

queermunist ,
@queermunist@lemmy.ml avatar

Biden is electing Trump by alienating his base. 80% of Democrats want a ceasefire! What the fuck?!

Your cynicism is noted, but change is possible if you aren’t too much of a coward to try.

go_go_gadget ,

The few people on the Internet that read this or feel like you.

Sounds like you don’t need our votes then. Go win the 2024 general election all on your own.

Drusas ,

They really do come across as naive children, the people who espouse this kind of belief. Demonstrating a lack of awareness of how complicated global politics are while also demonstrating a lack of awareness of how, in some ways, simple American politics are. They remind me of myself as a high schooler, all full of righteous indignation and hope for change without understanding how things work.

There will only be two choices for president, no matter how much we may want it to be otherwise or pretend that it could be otherwise. That will remain the case until we can get rid of first past the post and no amount of protesting is going to change that. If you truly want a third party candidate, your focus should be on getting rid of first pass the post. Until then, we only have two options.

Yes, that does mean our democracy is broken. No, that doesn't mean it's unsalvageable. And as I said above, a broken democracy is better than a fascist regime.

blazeknave ,

That’s the absolute worst part bc at that age I’d say shit like “well maybe they have to sacrifice their kids for there to even be a fucking future!” and thinking that’s reasonable. Getting older, and enough dystopian media about hard choices, I’ve learned to ask “why” a lot more and remember… What are we fighting for in the first place if we lose ourselves along the way? But yeah… You couldn’t change my mind then, even if I couldn’t see a Nazi on my doorstep like this. Very scary to be naive.

Drusas ,

No matter how much people vote against Biden, that won't end the genocide. Regardless of the fact that Trump would carry it out probably more enthusiastically, neither of them have the power to stop Netanyahu. And Netanyahu doesn't give a shit what Americans citizens think. He has the military might to subjugate the Palestinians with or without the US and he has made it clear that that's what he intends to do.

dangblingus ,

Yeah, President’s don’t care about that shit. They’re beholden to their corporate donors, who are going to be pro-Israel. Geopolitics and oil resources are a bitch, aren’t they?

go_go_gadget ,

Ending genocide isn’t on the ballot this year, Trump is.

Then fuck Joe Biden, fuck the Democrats, fuck this country and fuck this “Democracy”. You all can try to win the general on your own.

dvoraqs ,

I hope you see you will be to blame for the consequences

go_go_gadget ,

Nope. I’m going to blame every shithead who voted for Biden in the 2020 primaries. Fuck those people. Fuck every single one of them.

dangblingus ,

If you literally can’t tell the difference from 2016-2020 and 2020-2024, we can’t help you.

go_go_gadget ,

I don’t need your help. You need mine.

ReallyActuallyFrankenstein ,

Then fuck Joe Biden, fuck the Democrats, fuck this country and fuck this “Democracy”.

This is the perfect encapsulation of the “I’m not voting for an imperfect candidate” mindset. You’re ready to burn the house down, as if you weren’t in it too. (To be clear, “the house” in this metaphor is not just the US - fascist contagion will affect the entire world, just as Trump’s last presidency legitimized ultra-right politics in many countries.)

Also, if you reflected a bit, you’d see that that reaction is reasoning from a privileged position assuming that democracy continues to exist whatever your actions. It’s also focusing entirely on one specific foreseeable result (not voting for Biden = less genocide from Biden) while ignoring an entire landscape of probable outcomes (Trump becomes dictator, ends free elections, commits even more genocide against both Americans and countries he feuds with, Israel sees Trump’s chaos and realizes nobody has attention to spare and increases its genocide, etc).

go_go_gadget ,

We were perfectly clear in 2016 what was happening. People chose to vote for Biden in the 2020 primaries anyway. They deserve some portion of your anger.

blazeknave ,

Yup. Ending genocide is not on the ballot. Keeping American democracy on life support is on the ballot. And if we lose it because of this childish bullshit, abstainers in 2023 are to blame. You’re as useless as the Dem voters we’re already desperately trying to activate off the couch. Worst part is you’re doing it on purpose. You’re voting for Trump. It doesn’t matter how you feel. This is a fact. We’re hanging on by a thread and you’re whining to your own comrades about your feelings and discomfort. Vote far left down ballot. Elect a democratic president. Otherwise fuck yourself, your words mean literally nothing when you’re hauled off to camp from your family or put on the wall. Thanks for your opinions.

queermunist ,
@queermunist@lemmy.ml avatar

America has never been a democracy. 🙄

Also, I’m not voting for Trump! I’m even voting left down ballot, I’m just not voting for Biden specifically.

If Trump wins and Democrats control both chambers, what the hell can he even do? Bloviate? I guess maybe he’ll do some executive orders that the 6-3 Court will uphold, but if Democrats aren’t worthless cowards they’ll just refuse to enforce his orders and it won’t matter anyway.

Vqhm ,

deleted_by_author

    •
    queermunist ,
    @queermunist@lemmy.ml avatar

    There’s no guarantee we won’t already be in WW3 before the election (Israel is trying its best) so it’s hard to game things out that far.

    Also, Trump has praised Hezbollah’s military. The guy is a clown and just says whatever pops in his head.

    Vqhm ,

    deleted_by_author

    •
    queermunist ,
    @queermunist@lemmy.ml avatar

    There are so many issues that I oppose Biden on, this isn’t single issue. After betraying the railroad workers, after betraying migrants and refugees, after betraying over-policed and hyper-incarcerated minorities, how can I just accept yet another thing to hate about Biden? When will it end? I will not lay down and let him have his way with me because Trump is worse.

    This is just the red line. Here and no further. If you let Biden do anything he wants to you and beg for more, why would he ever stop?

    Vqhm , (edited )

    deleted_by_author

    •
    go_go_gadget ,

    You do realize if Trump loses the Republican primaries you’re gonna have to come up with a brand new narrative to explain why we have to vote for Biden right?

    Soulg ,

    You’re a moron

    go_go_gadget ,

    Sounds like you don’t need my vote then.

    Vqhm ,

    deleted_by_author

    •
    go_go_gadget ,

    Save your lectures for the assholes who voted for Biden in the primaries.

    Pratai ,

    I’m just not voting for Biden specifically.

    You’re voting for Trump.

    go_go_gadget ,

    Vote for this one person to save democracy or go fuck yourself.

    Sounds like a really healthy democracy you’ve got there. 🙄

    Anyway, the reason we’re in this position is because everyone who voted for Biden in the 2020 primaries is a complete asshole who intentionally fucked over progressive and leftist efforts. Now they’re mad we won’t show up for him in the general? Get fucked.

    Drusas ,

    Nobody is saying that we have a healthy democracy. In fact, just the opposite: they are pointing out that we do not and that is why we are on such thin ice.

    go_go_gadget ,

    And yet, when it came time to select the Democrat nominee millions of people were like “I know we’re on thin ice but I’m still going to vote for the procorporate trash candidate.”

    People who voted for Biden in the primaries are fucking assholes.

    Drusas ,

    That's more of a DNC decision. It's traditional for both parties to run their incumbent candidate because the incumbent usually wins.

    UristMcHolland ,

    Bernie was buy-and-large the most popular candidate in 2016. Mainstream media all but refused to put him on air(He was bad for business, i.e. for millionaires/billionaire executives). The DNC completely fucked us when they still elected to put Hillary on the ballot; even with the GOP colluding with the FBI to investigate her, whether or not that was legitimate is irrelevant. The DNC fucked us. And yet… Like others have said, our democracy is currently so fragile that we have no real other choice other than to vote D straight down the ballot.

    The only other possible option would be for a major of the country to write-in the same person in the primary election and then for that person to register as an official candidate and then run in the general election and win. The vast majority of states require a candidate to be registered for them to be a write-in. And good fucking luck convincing a majority of this country to agree on one person. Personally, if that were to happen I would proudly write-in Jon Stewart.

    Biden hasn’t been that bad. Not bad enough to risk never getting to vote again.

    go_go_gadget ,

    Did you just admit the DNC primaries are rigged?

    lingh0e ,

    First time?

    A) The incumbent party always runs the sitting president if they are eligible for another term. That’s not rigging, it’s literally how it works.

    B) Yes, the DNC rigs the primaries. Did you already forget when the DNC forced Hillary on us in 2016? Hell, if you’re asking that question than you obviously already forgot 2016, so of course you don’t even remember 2020.

    C) For someone with such strong opinions, you don’t seem to know much about the process. Seriously, is this your first time paying attention? Or is this your first time as an eligible voter?

    go_go_gadget ,

    Buddy I was talking about the 2020 primaries. You misread my comment.

    Aleric ,

    After Bernie got fucked, was there ever any question?

    go_go_gadget ,

    I didn’t have any question no. But the people who are telling me I have to vote for Biden regularly assure me democracy is functioning.

    Aleric ,

    But the people who are telling me I have to vote for Biden regularly assure me democracy is functioning.

    It’s so ridiculous. I’ll vote for him because I think it’s currently the best option of two entire options in a very broken system, but we really need to do something to get rid of “vote blue no matter who” because it’s goddamn ridiculous. It’s like careening wildly from one side of the highway to the other while screaming “this is fine!”

    I’m all for election reform. I think it’s our only way out of this.

    go_go_gadget ,

    I’m all for election reform.

    That’s never going to happen because procorporate trash like Biden will never allow it and procorporate trash is who voters in the 2020 primaries keep selecting because they’re actively fighting progressives and leftists. Then they turn around and want to act like we’re on the same side in the general. It’s pathetic.

    blazeknave ,

    No. We don’t all think that. You’re projecting because you’re angry and sad.

    go_go_gadget ,

    You’re projecting

    I don’t think Democracy is functioning. I don’t think you know what projecting means.

    blazeknave ,

    Who said they’re not. But that has nothing to do with you choosing to elect Trump. That’s just you being a bad loser pathetic whiney bitch.

    go_go_gadget ,

    Lol. Like all the bad loser pathetic whiney bitches who were big mad when we didn’t show up for Hillary? Stop voting for procorporate trash in the primaries.

    blazeknave ,

    And did win.

    blazeknave ,

    That has nothing to do with today. You’re dumb.

    go_go_gadget ,

    Call me whatever you want. If you don’t need my vote ignore me. If you need my vote then fucking pay attention.

    blazeknave ,

    In all of your comments, I’ve yet to see you propose a solution to prevent the end of our democracy. Just complaining it’s not enough of a democracy.

    How does letting Trump get elected get you closer to your goals, not further?

    go_go_gadget ,

    It’s not my responsibility to propose a solution to prevent the end of democracy. It’s the responsibility of everyone who voted for Joe Biden in the 2020 primaries why they’re such pieces of shit.

    blazeknave ,

    So you really are just here to whine and make a point of detracting people from stopping Trump’s victory. You really do suck. I felt bad for being a dick. But you’re worthless and selfish.

    go_go_gadget ,

    But you’re worthless and selfish.

    No I’m not. That’s the point. There were reasonable compromises to be made during the 2020 primaries. Those compromises were intentionally rejected by people who are now angry that I won’t show up to vote. People who voted for Biden in the 2020 primaries are worthless and selfish.

    Pratai ,

    We don’t have a choice right now. Wake up.

    go_go_gadget ,

    When will we have a choice? Tell me how many more times I’m morally obligated to vote for your piece of shit candidate?

    Hylactor ,
    go_go_gadget , (edited )

    No. I will not put up with this for 48 more years.

    blazeknave ,

    Correct. Because this won’t be here.

    go_go_gadget ,

    Good.

    Pratai ,

    It doesn’t fucking matter. You’re voting for your life and the lives of others. This isn’t a single issue election. Get that through your fucking head.

    go_go_gadget ,

    If that’s true then the people who voted for Biden in the 2020 primaries are absolute pieces of shit. Fuck them for fucking over progressive and leftist efforts.

    blazeknave ,

    You don’t even use logic. Those concepts have no relationship. You’re just an idiot with too much time online. You even go to DSA protests? Activism? You’re nothing.

    go_go_gadget ,

    Buddy, I have phone banked, canvassed, donated and voted.

    You’re nothing.

    Then you don’t need my vote and you can just ignore me.

    go_go_gadget ,

    People had a choice in the 2020 primaries and they chose procorporate trash Joe Biden. That’s on them for picking a shit candidate. Not me.

    Pratai ,

    It’s totally on you. And you can trust me on this- YOU will be blamed if Trump wins.

    go_go_gadget ,

    I do not give a fuck. What are you not understanding here? What did you people not fucking get in 2016? Who the fuck thought it was a good idea to test us again by voting for Joe fucking Biden in the 2020 primaries. Fuck all of those people. They actively fought us and proved we’re not on the same side.

    blazeknave ,

    Wah wah wah wah this is hard and didn’t go my way so I’m gonna whine and fuck everyone even harder, my fellow victims included. So we should get sent to the fucking chamber and women made breeding machines bc you’re a whiney bitch. If you’re not gonna help, go get hit by a bus instead of bringing the rest of us down. You’re disgusting and sad.

    go_go_gadget ,

    Welcome to Democracy. You aren’t entitled to my vote. If you need it then make better choices in the primaries. If you don’t need my vote continue voting for procorporate trash and then crying when they lose in the general election.

    blazeknave ,

    “democracy is on life support”… yeah… didn’t say this was healthy. Thanks for demonstrating the problem with binary zero sum game thinking. You’re not grounded in reality if you can’t see we’re on life support. You don’t give a dying person meth and have them run a marathon. You hold on for dear life.

    And fwiw wrt primaries… I voted against him. I voted against Hillary. I even voted against Pelosi for being too conservative. You’re fighting your comrades and the movement and that’s why you’re in the wrong and you don’t mean anything. Your politics and intellectualism mean nothing with the barrel of a gun between your eyes. Get your head out of your ass and vote against fascism. Or be a baby and have my friends and family killed in a few years. But I should get fucked. Thanks comrade. I’ll think about this comment looking out the window of the train at my kid for the last time. I’ll forever remember your vote, when I work to death in that mine, picturing my child screaming and crying the last time they see me.

    go_go_gadget ,

    You should’ve gotten your head out of your ass and voted for someone better in the 2020 primaries. You voted for Biden. I’m not responsible for how your garbage candidate performs in the general.

    Vqhm ,

    deleted_by_author

    •
    go_go_gadget ,

    You’ve got no plan.

    Rhoeri ,
    @Rhoeri@lemmy.world avatar

    Beautifully said my friend!

    Pratai ,

    Translation:

    Because of a single issue- I will vote for Trump who also supports genocide, but in addition- supports racism, bigotry, misogyny, and cowardice.

    go_go_gadget ,

    There’s lots of other issues. You just weren’t paying attention to what people have been saying.

    Rhoeri ,
    @Rhoeri@lemmy.world avatar

    Go ahead and list the issues you have with Biden that would be worse than the issues you’d have with Trump. Keep in mind, that the orange-utan has threatened to use the military once in power to keep people like you in line. Also worth mentioning, he plans on strengthening the abortion ban, more oppression of the LGBTQ+ and withdrawing from climate agreements.

    So please. Enlighten us on how your single-issue is worse than dealing with a tyrant.

    You can accept the truth of this, or you can pout and hold on to your vote, but I’ll warn you than the latter is a vote for Trump no matter how you try and justify it.

    Do the right thing.

    go_go_gadget ,

    So please. Enlighten us on how your single-issue is worse than dealing with a tyrant.

    We’ve raised a lot of issues with Biden. You just haven’t been paying attention.

    Do the right thing.

    Millions of people had the opportunity to do the right thing in the 2020 primaries and instead they voted for procorporate trash Joe Biden. Fuck those people.

    Rhoeri , (edited )
    @Rhoeri@lemmy.world avatar

    I say again;

    Go ahead and list the issues you have with Biden that would be worse than the issues you’d have with Trump. Keep in mind, that the orange-utan has threatened to use the military once in power to keep people like you in line. Also worth mentioning, he plans on strengthening the abortion ban, more oppression of the LGBTQ+ and withdrawing from climate agreements.

    Know what? Nevermind. I don’t want to hear from you anymore.

    go_go_gadget ,

    I don’t want to hear from you anymore.

    You never did.

    nbafantest ,

    Maybe you need to look up how the rail strike ended… its clear you’re exceptionally misinformed.

    npr.org/…/freight-rail-workers-union-paid-sick-le…

    Joe has been a phenomenal President so far

    mydude ,

    “Those of us in Congress who voted for seven days… we are not going to forget this issue,” Sanders warned on Thursday, Feb 2023…

    nbafantest ,

    Yes… OP read one headline and then forgot about it lol

    But not Amtrak Joe 💪

    go_go_gadget ,

    There’s no excuse for blocking a strike. Fuck Joe Biden and fuck the 44 Democrat senators and 36 Republican senators who helped him.

    dangblingus ,

    It wasn’t a retail worker strike, it was a rail worker strike. It’s critical to national security that the rail lines be running. I hate strike-breaking legislation as it’s a blatant removal of constitutional rights, but there is a fine line to walk as President in the face of a transport crisis.

    go_go_gadget ,

    If you believe blocking the strike was the right call then you and I are not on the same side. Elect your procorporate trash candidate on your own.

    endhits ,

    Fuck national security. You can use that as an excuse for any bullshit. Didn’t they use that as an excuse to lock up American citizens after pearl harbor?

    This sentiment is exactly why strikes should include sabotage.

    nbafantest ,

    Ah yes, The fact the workers got what they wanted isn’t good enough is it?

    Fucking hate phony people like this. Pretending you care about workers but don’t actually.

    go_go_gadget ,

    Ah yes, The fact the workers got what they wanted isn’t good enough is it?

    They didn’t get what they wanted. They wanted 15 days. Nobody has 15 days. I know more about this issue than you.

    nbafantest ,

    I really despise people like this that fake care about workers

    go_go_gadget ,

    That’s you bud.

    nbafantest ,

    It’s bullshit workers went from 0 sick days to 7. Fuck joe Biden, piece of shit. Amirite??

    go_go_gadget ,

    Buddy, a few workers from one union have 7 days. You don’t know what you’re talking about. Yes, fuck Joe Biden.

    Stop defending him for blocking a strike. That ain’t pro worker any way you look at it. Fuck Joe Biden.

    nbafantest ,

    A few? Lmao

    Yet another anti worker post. Simply amazing

    go_go_gadget ,

    Keep your head buried in the sand my dude.

    nbafantest ,

    I wonder what its like to play both sides. Kinda feel sorry for you

    dangblingus ,

    The alternative is Trump. You’re either going to abstain or vote for Trump if Biden doesn’t pull support for Israel? You know that literally every other POTUS since 1948 has been pro-Israel right?

    nonailsleft ,

    You’re going to give up checks notes everything because he’s continuing the same policy the US has held like forever?

    arymandias , (edited )

    Maybe stop supporting a genocide. And maybe campaign on actual issues instead of on ‘Trump is literally Hitler’, it falls a little flat after the entire Trump Russia thing turned out to be bs.

    (Not saying Trump is the better choice, but I can imagine why people are hesitant to go to the polls for Biden)

    Edit for more visibility:

    Mueller Report, vol. I, p. 173: “Ultimately, the investigation did not establish that the Campaign coordinated or conspired with the Russian government in its election-interference activities.”

    Hillary Clinton hired Christopher Steele to do oppo research against Trump, this became known as the Steele Dossier and contained a number of accusations on Trump. After the election the FBI started a serious investigation on if these accusations were true, and after two years the Mueller Report concluded that none of the serious allegations against Trump could be verified. This is why the Democrats (who had a majority in the house at that time) decided not to impeach, there was nothing there.

    (As mentioned below of course Trump got impeached but not on the Mueller Report or the Steele Dossier, but rather on trying to pressure Ukraine and jan 6)

    And of course Russia did try to influence the election, but this does not mean Trump was complicit, and no proof of this was found.

    Hence Trump Russia is BS.

    To add to this notably during the 2018 midterms nobody campaigned on Russia gate because it was a loosing issue at this point.

    So that’s why I think it is smarter and more productive to campaign on actual issues like abortion, climate change, and health care, not on Russia Gate 2.0. Or they will ensure a second Trump term.

    Final edit:

    1. Bidens current strategy clearly doesn’t work, otherwise the polls would be different.
    2. The Mueller Report clearly states no evidence of collusion found (after two years of intensive investigation).

    You can downvote all you want but that doesn’t change the facts.

    LarryTheMatador ,

    deleted_by_author

    •
    queermunist ,
    @queermunist@lemmy.ml avatar

    There’s little evidence that Russia did anything worse than any other special interest group.

    But you don’t care when corporations do it.

    LarryTheMatador ,

    deleted_by_author

    •
    queermunist ,
    @queermunist@lemmy.ml avatar

    Russiagate is just the Ziodiac Killer coming out against Jeffrey Dahmer’s heinous actions. It’s a joke.

    SatansMaggotyCumFart ,

    That’s not the joke here.

    arymandias ,

    Then why did the democrats not impeach him based on the Mueller Report?

    Hillary Clinton hired Christopher Steele to do oppo research against Trump, this became known as the Steele Dossier and contained a number of accusations on Trump. After the election the FBI started a serious investigation on if these accusations were true, and after two years the Mueller Report concluded that none of the serious allegations against Trump could be verified. This is why the Democrats (who had a majority in the house at that time) decided not to impeach, there was nothing there.

    Russia did try to influence the election, but this does not mean Trump was complicit, and no proof of this was found.

    MagicPterodactyl ,

    “Then why did the democrats not impeach him based on the Mueller Report?”

    They did. Where have you been.

    arymandias ,

    They did not, they impeached him twice: once on Ukraine and once on jan 6. Never on Russia; never on the Mueller report.

    Dark_Arc ,
    @Dark_Arc@social.packetloss.gg avatar

    You can’t impeach someone who isn’t in office

    frezik ,

    The Muller Report explicitly asked Congress to investigate further. Muller stated that Justice Department policy tied his hands to look any further into a sitting President.

    Barr then gets ahead of it saying “this is a nothingburger”. That becomes the media narrative before anyone outside the Justice Department can actually read it. One which you’re now repeating. Impeachment isn’t like a court case; it is primarily a political process. Barr knew this, and to this day, Trump had no clue how much Barr saved his ass.

    Read the Muller Report, not the headlines. It is a damning document.

    arymandias ,

    Mueller Report, vol. I, p. 173: “Ultimately, the investigation did not establish that the Campaign coordinated or conspired with the Russian government in its election-interference activities.”

    What Bar said is irrelevant, I’m basing my statements on the Mueller report.

    frezik ,

    Nope, you’re cherry picking. Muller didn’t establish that because he didn’t wasn’t allowed to go further. Here’s the complete paragraph of that very quote:

    "As set forth in detail in this report, the Special Counsel’s investigation established that Russia interfered in the 2016 presidential election principally through two operations. First, a Russian entity carried out a social media campaign that favored presidential candidate Donald J. Trump and disparaged presidential candidate Hillary Clinton. Second, a Russian intelligence service conducted computer-intrusion operations against entities, employees, and volunteers working on the Clinton Campaign and then released stolen documents. The investigation also identified numerous links between the Russian government and the Trump Campaign. Although the investigation established that the Russian government perceived it would benefit from a Trump presidency and worked to secure that outcome, and that the Campaign expected it would benefit electorally from information stolen and released through Russian efforts, the investigation did not establish that members of the Trump Campaign conspired or coordinated with the Russian government in its election interference activities. "

    So even if there was no direct collusion, there sure as hell was a deliberate campaign by Russia to support Trump. The only thing Muller was blocked from establishing was if the Trump Campaign was talking to the Russians directly, or if Russia merely saw a Trump Presidency as being in their interests and worked on their own. Again, Muller was not allowed to follow up any deeper than he did.

    arymandias ,

    There was no collusion, no evidence has been found since then, even with a democratic trifecta after 2020. Trump did try to pressure Ukraine in an effort to meddle in the 2020 election, Trump did incite an insurrection on January 6, Trump did try to overturn the 2020 election. But thus far there is simply no evidence of collusion in the 2016 campaign, even after a two year inquiry.

    And I did not cherry pick, I quoted the relevant information, namely the conclusion.

    Those are just the facts, no comment here has refuted this thus far by providing any evidence of collusion.

    The only thing that happened is that my original comment has been removed for spreading misinformation, which I find frankly stunning.

    dangblingus ,

    The wording of the Mueller report wasn’t a slam dunk for Democrats to impeach with. There was no smoking gun, just that in all likelihood, Trump colluded with Russian agents in undermining the election. His children met directly with Russians to discuss manipulating voters, but Trump is Teflon Don and apparently was never in any of those meetings. We all believe him of course.

    Szymon ,

    When the plan is to lose, you gotta make it look credible to maintain the theatre.

    Kase ,

    Wdym the plan is to lose?

    go_go_gadget ,

    There’s two options: either Biden is intentionally trying to lose or too stupid to recognize the people he’s depending on to win absolutely hate him

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