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psycho_driver ,

Still way less bloated than win11 I’d wager

OsrsNeedsF2P ,

Step 1. Install the most secure, pure, minimalist Linux distro

Step 2. Get frustrated at the complications

Step 3. Give up and go back to Windows

  • a story I’ve seen happen more than once
CubitOom ,

I’ve had the exact opposite experience on arch, mostly because of the arch wiki.

  1. Install arch using the arch wiki for reference
  2. If an issue arises, consult the arch wiki
  3. Document, contribute, and help others
mrmanager ,
@mrmanager@lemmy.today avatar

Go back to windows is not an option, it’s a really horrible system. I dont see how people can use it without blowing their brains out.

InternetCitizen2 ,

Vendor lock in. Still melts the brain.

sum_yung_gai ,

It just works. I don’t want to have to invest time in making my os work. I want to spend my time on my projects(which I use wsl for)

I totally understand the desire and satisfaction of having complete control over your os but a lot of people just want to be able to do simple stuff like game and browse the web which windows does just fine in my experience.

Eyck_of_denesle ,

It just works it’s just better supported because of the monopoly Microsoft established

sum_yung_gai ,

I’m saying it just works, I didn’t say anything about why that is the case.

Eyck_of_denesle ,

I did

Allero ,

I’d argue Linux falls short on audience that needs a little more than browsing and simple games, but are themselves a little less than sysadmins. That’s the audience that is really hurt by the transition. The rest (simple as well as power users) should be just fine.

Even still, with Windows being the mainstream option, it just goes as a no-brainer and a default solution for the majority of people, regardless of how good or bad it is.

psycho_driver ,

Oh I’m sure. People get used to something because it’s forced on them and change is hard. Also, ADD is at all time highs thanks to portable devices.

People who are abducted and held captive often experience Stockholm Syndrome once they find themselves set free.

pizzazz ,

For me unfortunately it has been Step 1 install literally the most universally compatible distro possible

Step 2 audio drivers craps out. No fix is available. Trying to apply workarounds completely Bork the system

Step 3 install again. graphics driver is problematic, refresh it giving it MOS permissions. I miss the MOS permission screen at the reboot. Look for how to do obtain that option again. No easy way to do it at all. Bork the system again

Step 4 install again. Notice touch screen support is completely useless, and pen is not supported.

Step 5 Ask myself if keeping a 1200$ computer with tinny audio, no graphic hardware acceleration and a half functional display can be justified in any way. It can’t.

Step 5. Back to windows. Bloated, but it works.

Unfortunately system support is still very iffy on some models. I’d really like to embrace the distro life but can’t.

woelkchen ,
@woelkchen@lemmy.world avatar

Without claiming that I would be able to fix any problems, I’m curious which hardware that is. In all honesty I can’t remember the actual audio driver ever crapping out in the last 15 or so years. I find this fascinating and like to know more.

The set of hardware I’ve had most problems with had been various types of WiFi adapters from Realtek and Broadcom.

woelkchen ,
@woelkchen@lemmy.world avatar

I’ve seen “Step 3: Buy a Mac” plenty of times for exactly that audience. They like tinkering as a college student and when they enter the working world they realize that tinkering all the time impedes their financial bottom line. Then they go from Linux fans to hardcore Linux haters (“it’s for playing around, not serious work”), even though a convenience distro like Fedora would have solved all their problems in an instant.

Allero , (edited )

Step 1. Install user-friendly Linux distro

Step 2. Get frustrated at the complications

Step 3. Try to check back on Windows

Step 4. Get completely disgusted, realize just HOW much bloated and slow and terrible Windows is

Step 5. Learn Linux-fu and live happy ever after

That’s my path

Zozano , (edited )

Most people in this thread don’t get it.

You know how some people compete to see who can get Doom to run on the craziest platforms, like a calculator?

Installing Arch with the fewest packages is like that. There’s something oddly satisfying about stripping everything back to the most basic level - to make things work for you within the most constrictive environment you enforce for yourself.

It’s like eating a spicy shellfish dinner and super gluing your asshole closed.

Zink ,

Arch Linux: It’s like eating a spicy shellfish dinner and super gluing your asshole closed.

UNY0N ,

Poetry. >chef’s kiss<

Agility0971 ,
@Agility0971@lemmy.world avatar

… most people don’t get it …

mutter9355 ,

Tbh I don’t

caseyweederman ,

Fuck! I forgot nano and pacman again.

Zozano ,

Nano… Pfff…

Requires three dependencies, while Vi requires one. Everyone can see how bloated your system is. You should be embarrassed.

Hey guys, check out this resource beast and laugh! Ha ha ha!

shekau ,

Debian is the solution

lemmylem ,

Is there a way to download Debian with GNOME without all the bloat?

Username ,

You don’t use GNOME to get rid of bloat. You use it to get a fully functional opinionated desktop without tweaking too much.

If you want no “bloat”, whatever that is, use some minimal compositor like Sway or something.

Personally, I say: Give me all the bloat, I love it! I love every cool and quality of life feature there is. I have enough space on any desktop computer.

lemmylem , (edited )

Yes, I understand that, but I don’t need all the games and stuff installed by default. Sway is a whole different experience. I use i3 on my older laptop (Macbook A1181 w/ Libreboot) but I personally wouldn’t want to use it unless I needed to.

GNOME is a gorgeous desktop environment, I just hate the fact that I have to take a additional 5-10 minutes every install just removing all the stuff I don’t need. Is there a debloater script for GNOME that you know of?

umbrella ,
@umbrella@lemmy.ml avatar

mfs with a 16 core cpu, 64gb ram and 10tb storage be like

ILikeBoobies ,

Hey! I have 128gb of ram

…and still restart my browser if it’s using over 1 gb

ziixe ,
@ziixe@lemmy.dbzer0.com avatar

This, MFers will have the most top spec computer and worry about bloat while I install random shit for fun on my 320gb had drive that’s also my boot drive on my core 2 duo computer with 3 gigs of ram that struggles to run firefox and thunar at the same time (also cinnamon is the best running on my computer from my testing, xfce is laggy af and I’m not even going to mention kde, bspwm or any other since the, either lag beyond usability (KDE) or just straight up crash my computer into tty when i try to launch them (bspwm), one massive note is that I’m using software rendering since the GPU on the core 2 duo is struggling with even drawing the boot screen)

Literally have probably a ton of overlap software from installing the desktop environments and other random (well not very random, stuff I used on windows before) software that I don’t bother googling the deleting commands since apt installed them all as snaps because I never noticed in my first three months of use, fuck you Ubuntu, Xubuntu and all other derivatives, this shit makes me not want to use Ubuntu ever again (not like i can, my pc is fucked and no other drive is bootable, i can’t even boot an install usb)

DickFiasco ,

You might want to check out the i3 tiling window manager. Shit’s under 50MB and makes every other DE I’ve ever used feel bloated and laggy.

ziixe ,
@ziixe@lemmy.dbzer0.com avatar

Yeah, I’m not actually not very into the tiling window manager thing, I tried bspwm just for the sake of wanting to try one but I since lost interest, I’ll keep it in mind though and maybe come back and try it one day

mojofrododojo , (edited )

to be fair - core 2 duo computer with 3 gigs of ram - you’re using the desktop I had in 2009. At some point, do you think that it’s time to upgrade? no, wait, I think I had a core 2 quad actually…

Diplomjodler ,

I never understand this obsession with “bloat” when you can buy a 1 TB SSD for € 50.

nitrolife ,
@nitrolife@rekabu.ru avatar

or you can’t buy if you’re not successful enough or you’re in the wrong country. For example, in my country, the minimum cost of a 1TB SSD is about $85 and a salary of $2,000 is considered a very successful salary at the upper limit

tubaruco ,

bro a 256 gb ssd here costs 200+

EvacuateSoul ,

That’s wild. I just bought several recently for $20 ea

Diplomjodler ,

Do you live in North Korea?

tubaruco ,

of course, how else would i use lemmy?

RogueBanana ,

That sounds insane, are computer parts in general that much more expensive than other countries?

tubaruco ,

yeah

GreatBlueHeron ,

For me it’s not about the size, it’s about the understanding. I’d really like to understand what everything on my system does and why it’s there. It seems impossible with modern systems. Back in the '90s I needed a secure email relay - it had lilo, kernel, init, getty, bash, vi, a few shell utils (before busybox…), syslogd and sendmail. I’m not sure any more as it was a long time ago, but I think I even statically linked everything so there was no libc. I liked that system.

NaoPb ,

I’d like to know more about what my system does, so I can fix it when it breaks.

Titou ,

Bloat is more about performances

SeekPie ,

So you have a folder and need to find a specific file from it. Would it be faster to find the file when there are 5 folders or 500?

lemmyingly ,

It seems to be seen across all platforms.

What I find interesting is that no one is asking about the quality of code, nor do they seem concerned about the dependencies but they do care about that one package/app/program of any size they see and don’t immediately know why it’s there.

jack ,

It’s not about storage. It’s about complexity getting back at you, for example not knowing what caused a problem because multiple programs are stepping on each others feet

cevn ,

For me it was a problem with update frequency and how long they would take. Once i got rid of my flatpaks and moved to stable firefox i update once a week instead of daily now and it takes seconds instead of minutes. Probably also solvable with auto updates.

SpaceCadet ,
@SpaceCadet@feddit.nl avatar

Bloat multiplies when you have to back it up.

cybersandwich ,

You realize you don’t have to backup the actual “bloated” programs. Just maybe their configs and any files those programs generate that you’d like to keep, right?

NaoPb ,

I remember what my idea of making backups was when I was a wee grasshopper.

Making a backup of the whole OS instead of just the configs and user files.

I have come a long way since then.

SpaceCadet ,
@SpaceCadet@feddit.nl avatar

That’s committing the cardinal sin of cherrypicking your backup contents. You may end up forgetting to include things that you didn’t know you needed until restore time and you’re creating a backup that is cumbersome to restore. Always remember: you should really be creating a restore strategy rather than a backup strategy.

As a general rule I always backup the filesystem wholesale, optionally exclude things of which I’m 100% sure that I don’t need it, and keep multiple copies (daylies and monthlies going some time back) so I always have a complete reference of what my system looked like at a particular point in time, and if push comes to shove I can always revert to a previous state by wiping the filesystem and copying one of the backups to it.

joe_cool ,

Snaps still take longer to load with that.

Agility0971 ,
@Agility0971@lemmy.world avatar

It’s not always about storage. It can also be more processes that drains battery, more attack vectors etc.

Telodzrum ,

Every person who comments about “bloat” in their install should be required to preface their post or comment with a full definition of “bloat.”

This shit is obnoxious.

cybersandwich ,

Bloat = making your system usable

  • annoying people who whine about bloat
cybersandwich ,

I actually wonder if we could ever agree on a definition?

Maybe:

Bloat: any unnecessary, superfluous software, software package, or feature that is unused or unnecessarily inefficient, and/or uses system resources to an unessasary or unreasonable degree.

What do you guys think? Because then we can still argue about bloat and what reasonable is! And that’s what it’s all about. Arguing for the sake of it!

muhyb ,

Bloat is relative to every person / usage case but I agree with this definition.

Agility0971 ,
@Agility0971@lemmy.world avatar

I like this. Maybe it needs some words on bloatware that is enforced on users agains their interests?

caseyweederman ,

Anything that’s not kernel

joe_cool ,

So GNU?

caseyweederman ,

Just the G actually

CriticalMiss ,

But the G in GNU stands for GNU

joe_cool ,

reminds me of this totally valid URL:

…ubuntu.ubuntu.archive.ubuntu.com/…/ubuntu/

areyouevenreal ,

I mean compared to things like Alpine which use musl and busybox you could consider it bloated yes.

kromem ,

Well, also not kernel modules. That counts as bloat.

caseyweederman ,

You’re right. And how much of the kernel do we really need, anyway?

Agility0971 ,
@Agility0971@lemmy.world avatar

installing more than base, linux, and linux-firmware is bloat.

rickyrigatoni ,

it’s not bloat if i wanted it and installed it.

woelkchen ,
@woelkchen@lemmy.world avatar

It is bloat if dependencies aren’t defined properly and the packager defines a too broad set of dependencies.

(Disclaimer: I don’t use Arch myself but I am a packager of a small “scratch my own itch” but public repository for another distribution.)

rickyrigatoni ,

Yeah I remember that one time I tried to uninstall Banshee because I didn’t want it and Ubuntu’s repos were set up that it by default just tried to uninstall GNOME entirely. And it was GNOME 2 so uninstalling it was a bad thing at the time.

Rubanski ,

Btw I don’t use Arch?

uis ,

Install gentoo

A_Very_Big_Fan ,

As someone who primarily uses Windows, Ubuntu didn’t feel like it had any bloat when I tried it.

trolololol ,

Buahaha

Zink ,

lol yeah, I still use windows regularly, but every Linux distro I’ve tried has seemed like a lean mean OS in comparison.

Samueru ,

sudo is bloat

mojo_raisin ,

ls is bloat, real Linux users just need echo.

echo *

backhdlp ,
@backhdlp@iusearchlinux.fyi avatar

It’s not bloat if you use it.

rustydrd ,
@rustydrd@sh.itjust.works avatar

Then again, am I really using these Haskell libraries? I just want to use pandoc. I love Arch, but the organization of the official repos is sometimes suboptimal.

backhdlp ,
@backhdlp@iusearchlinux.fyi avatar

you’re right, installing pandoc on arch really comes with a lot of bloat. Iirc it’s >200 haskell libraries.

oce ,
@oce@jlai.lu avatar

Haskell is paved with bad installations.

goddard_guryon ,

Last I checked (which was some time ago), pandoc-bin doesn’t require the haskell dependencies. I saved quite some installation time (and screen space during installation) by switching.

rustydrd ,
@rustydrd@sh.itjust.works avatar

Used pandoc-bin before and agree it’s more compact, but I had some issues with citation management recently, so went back to standard pandoc.

areyouevenreal ,

Someone has never done software development or worked on a build pipeline and it shows. Obviously complex software has lots of dependencies especially compiling from source.

JustEnoughDucks ,
@JustEnoughDucks@feddit.nl avatar

I definitely use the previous 10 versions of electron that I definitely didn’t completely forget to uninstall.

In unrelated news, by root partition is now about 2GB lighter.

callyral ,
@callyral@pawb.social avatar 

<span style="color:#323232;">> Install NixOS
</span><span style="color:#323232;">> Learn about Nix
</span><span style="color:#323232;">> Organise your dotfiles
</span><span style="color:#323232;">> Learn about flakes
</span><span style="color:#323232;">> Organise your dotfiles
</span><span style="color:#323232;">> Learn about modularisation
</span><span style="color:#323232;">> Organise your dotfiles
</span><span style="color:#323232;">> ...
</span>
sagrotan ,
@sagrotan@lemmy.world avatar

Twelve window manager are not bloat, it’s variety!

octopus_ink ,

I mean - you control what gets installed on Arch. One finger pointing at arch is three pointing back in this scenario…

4am ,

I don’t think the finger is being pointed at Arch though

fossphi ,

You also control what’s being installed on other distros. In fact, other distros split their packages in a way more modular way which allows one to pick and choose what one needs granularly. In Arch, the package count is lower because the maintainers don’t split stuff up. But you get all the so called bloat when you installna regular package

joe_cool ,

And you’d have to try pretty hard to make it as infested with snaps.

redempt ,

paru -Qqtd | paru -Rc -

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